Springfield Hellcat banned from my department

[BehindBlueI's]

We recently received an email that the Hellcat is no longer approved for carry on or off duty based on a malfunction that causes the trigger to lock into place. A video demonstrates the issue, so if anyone wishes to attempt to replicate it, the steps appear to be:

1: Partially press the trigger, enough to activate the safety tab, then release. (Ie, started to shoot, situation changed, and did not need to shoot)

2: Then attempt to press the trigger as normal (Ie, situation changed again and now you need to shoot) and the trigger will not move.

[psalms144.1]

Huh. Just tried this repeatedly with snap caps and can't replicate. Any link to the video?

[BillSWPA]

Has Springfield been informed of the issue?

[psalms144.1]

OK, I think I found the referenced video. The "problem" is this:

1. Pull back the trigger WITHOUT contacting the trigger safety tab, so that it engages as designed.

2. WITHOUT RELEASING THE REARWARD PRESSURE ON THE TRIGGER, attempt to pull the trigger, in other words, "defeat" the trigger tab.

So, the video complains that the trigger tab works as intended. And you can't defeat it. This is a "problem" for the guy making the video. Of course, a follow up video show how you can modify the trigger safety tab so you CAN engage it, then overcome it while it's still engaged. This is described as a "fix."

At this point, I'm perfectly content with the trigger safety on my sample of one working as intended, and as I want it to work. I have found no way to place my finger on the trigger that, if the safety engages and stops rearward movement, release of pressure and engaging the trigger safety tab as intended doesn't make the trigger work.

[GJM]

Maybe Springfield ought to think back to grip zone, and create a trigger zone for the Hellcat. Robbie could demo it in a sequel to his grip zone video.

[BehindBlueI's]

Huh. Just tried this repeatedly with snap caps and can't replicate. Any link to the video?

I don't know if it's been posted anywhere public, so not from me.


Has Springfield been informed of the issue?

My understanding is yes.


OK, I think I found the referenced video. The "problem" is this:

1. Pull back the trigger WITHOUT contacting the trigger safety tab, so that it engages as designed.

2. WITHOUT RELEASING THE REARWARD PRESSURE ON THE TRIGGER, attempt to pull the trigger, in other words, "defeat" the trigger tab.

So, the video complains that the trigger tab works as intended. And you can't defeat it. This is a "problem" for the guy making the video. Of course, a follow up video show how you can modify the trigger safety tab so you CAN engage it, then overcome it while it's still engaged. This is described as a "fix."

At this point, I'm perfectly content with the trigger safety on my sample of one working as intended, and as I want it to work. I have found no way to place my finger on the trigger that, if the safety engages and stops rearward movement, release of pressure and engaging the trigger safety tab as intended doesn't make the trigger work.

There is no followup video, the video I'm seeing is our range armorer demonstrating it, and there is no approved "fix" at this point which is why it's banned for us. Once it's locked it stays locked. He takes his finger completely out of the trigger guard and tries again and it won't move. I have no idea how wide spread it is. If anybody here's given example works as intended, great. Figured it'd be worth posting for those who want to check their example.

[Warped Mindless]

A Springfield product not working?

Im shocked... Just shocked lol

[0ddl0t]

https://i1.wp.com/usedgunspa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mod2.png

[ST911]

We recently received an email that the Hellcat is no longer approved for carry on or off duty based on a malfunction that causes the trigger to lock into place. A video demonstrates the issue, so if anyone wishes to attempt to replicate it, the steps appear to be:

1: Partially press the trigger, enough to activate the safety tab, then release. (Ie, started to shoot, situation changed, and did not need to shoot)

2: Then attempt to press the trigger as normal (Ie, situation changed again and now you need to shoot) and the trigger will not move.

This is somewhat reminiscent of the XD's early issues with the grip safety locking up the gun.

[Hambo]

There is no followup video, the video I'm seeing is our range armorer demonstrating it, and there is no approved "fix" at this point which is why it's banned for us. Once it's locked it stays locked. He takes his finger completely out of the trigger guard and tries again and it won't move. I have no idea how wide spread it is. If anybody here's given example works as intended, great. Figured it'd be worth posting for those who want to check their example.

Did this happen to one pistol or several? I don't own one, just curious.

[LockedBreech]

Concerning. I held the Hellcat at my local shop and really liked it, but these days I'm pretty much zero exceptions on my "2 years of the design being on the market before I buy" rule. I've seen it vindicated too many times.

[HCM]

We recently received an email that the Hellcat is no longer approved for carry on or off duty based on a malfunction that causes the trigger to lock into place. A video demonstrates the issue, so if anyone wishes to attempt to replicate it, the steps appear to be:

1: Partially press the trigger, enough to activate the safety tab, then release. (Ie, started to shoot, situation changed, and did not need to shoot)

2: Then attempt to press the trigger as normal (Ie, situation changed again and now you need to shoot) and the trigger will not move.

The Furher will be pleased.


https://youtu.be/mTDhIOaxk4E

[LittleLebowski]

Clearly more #GripZone (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=GripZone) will fix this.

[camel]

This is concerning to me because I had my eye on one. I’ll wait till it plays out but it’s still a Springfield polymer. Maybe maybe not

[DMCutter]

I messed with mine for a little while and couldn't replicate it. I'll stand by for the experts to dissect it further.

[skipper49]

And I’ll be messing with mine in the morning. Been carrying it every day for about 8 months, and love it. Dead reliable and a great shooter, but be certain I’ll be following this thread with more than passing interest.
Skip

[BehindBlueI's]

Did this happen to one pistol or several? I don't own one, just curious.

I don't know. The only thing I can say with certainty is it was enough of a concern that we can't carry them until we get the all clear. It's listed as "temporary" so I would assume that means a fix is likely at some point, but that's an assumption on my part.

[Bucky]

Concerning. I held the Hellcat at my local shop and really liked it, but these days I'm pretty much zero exceptions on my "2 years of the design being on the market before I buy" rule. I've seen it vindicated too many times.

Make sure you shoot one. Unlike many here, I’m not an XD hater. Yet, I did not like how the Hellcat shot. Did a side be side with the P365, and thought the 365 shot better.

[DueSpada]

Has anyone tried this same trigger manipulation evolution with other trigger safety guns?

Just bare naked triggers here.

[fixer]

Concerning. I held the Hellcat at my local shop and really liked it, but these days I'm pretty much zero exceptions on my "2 years of the design being on the market before I buy" rule. I've seen it vindicated too many times.

This...

[HCountyGuy]

Any updates on this? I messed around with two Hellcats at my LGS and could not replicate the issue to the point the trigger completely froze up after removing my finger from it. Pulling the trigger without engaging the tab (which I had to put effort in to making happen) and then engaging the tab once the trigger locked back of course did not allow me to manipulate the trigger any further back. Trying the same on other striker guns (Glock, M&P, CZ P-10) I did not have any similar trigger lock-up after pressing the trigger back without engaging the tab or hinge and then defeating the mechanism.

[TGS]

Make sure you shoot one. Unlike many here, I’m not an XD hater. Yet, I did not like how the Hellcat shot. Did a side be side with the P365, and thought the 365 shot better.

The beef with the XD here isn't with how it shoots.....I think most of us here have shot one, and would agree it's a nice shooting pistol.

The reason we don't like the idea of using them for defensive matters is because it's not a duty grade pistol; apply Todd's Razor in context of duty weapons, "Uncommon guns are uncommon for a reason".

[BehindBlueI's]

Any updates on this? I messed around with two Hellcats at my LGS and could not replicate the issue to the point the trigger completely froze up after removing my finger from it. Pulling the trigger without engaging the tab (which I had to put effort in to making happen) and then engaging the tab once the trigger locked back of course did not allow me to manipulate the trigger any further back. Trying the same on other striker guns (Glock, M&P, CZ P-10) I did not have any similar trigger lock-up after pressing the trigger back without engaging the tab or hinge and then defeating the mechanism.

Nothing has been sent out, but I can ask.

[HCM]

Make sure you shoot one. Unlike many here, I’m not an XD hater. Yet, I did not like how the Hellcat shot. Did a side be side with the P365, and thought the 365 shot better.


The beef with the XD here isn't with how it shoots.....I think most of us here have shot one, and would agree it's a nice shooting pistol.

The reason we don't like the idea of using them for defensive matters is because it's not a duty grade pistol; apply Todd's Razor in context of duty weapons, "Uncommon guns are uncommon for a reason".

TGS is spot on here. The fact that the XD's "feel" good (trigger, grip, etc) in the gun store is how many new gun buyers wind up with them, along with the supply chain from SAI to the local gun store guys trying to make low information customers think the Croatian made XD is an "American" gun.

The main issues are:

Durability and reliability in both LE agency testing and training classes
Lack of factory armorer and parts support- They want everything sent to the mother ship
The grip safety locking the slide is unacceptable for injured shooter manipulations

While XDs are common in gun shops and on ranges, there are no significant LE or military users in the U.S. other than NYPD allowing the XDS and an optional personal off duty / BUG. Though it's worth noting the XDS is a slightly different design, among other things it's grip safety doesn't lock the slide like the XD/XD2 and XDM.

[RevolverRob]

The grip safety locking the slide is unacceptable for injured shooter manipulations


To me, this is the biggest failing of the XD design and the main reason why it's unacceptable as a defensive/serious use tool.

The reliability factor is a concern for high-volume shooters, but for the average defense shooter, it's probably not a concern. But the gun being unable to be manipulated without the grip safety depressed, renders the gun too dependent on the grip safety in the event of a parts breakage rendering that safety inoperable.

Sure you could get a parts breakage render the grip safety on a 1911 inoperable (and likely the gun non-functional), but you can still manipulate the slide and disassemble the firearm to repair it; something that is impossible with the XD.

[BehindBlueI's]

Any updates on this?

There will be no updates for the forseeable future as this has been put on the back burner for higher priority uses of the armorer's time. If I hear anything I'll update, but it appears they will remain banned for us until such a time as it can be looked into again.

[BigT]

I can lock up the Hellcat and the CZ P10 series triggers by putting sideways pressure on the trigger when pulling it back. Jams the trigger safety into the frame and locks it up. Would seem to be related to this.

[HCM]

I can lock up the Hellcat and the CZ P10 series triggers by putting sideways pressure on the trigger when pulling it back. Jams the trigger safety into the frame and locks it up. Would seem to be related to this.

I’ve done the same with the polymer Apex trigger for the M&P - no such issue with the metal version.

[Chomps]

Can this issue with the hellcat & other pistols be fixed /w like a trigger upgrade? Is this something endemic with those blade/double trigger type safeties? Should I be concerned about this with my Glock 19 trigger? (noob,.. so I'm clueless.)

[Clusterfrack]

Should I be concerned about this with my Glock 19 trigger? (noob,.. so I'm clueless.)

No.

[Coyote41]

Can this issue with the hellcat & other pistols be fixed /w like a trigger upgrade? Is this something endemic with those blade/double trigger type safeties? Should I be concerned about this with my Glock 19 trigger? (noob,.. so I'm clueless.)

There is nothing inherently wrong with the drop-safety trigger design in Glock or other pistols that use it. Many pistol designs use it with no problems. This issue is Hellcat specific.

I’d love to dig into the guts of a hellcat and see why it has problems. Is it a tolerance issue, i.e. bad design? Or is it a machining/QC issue? I’ll never own one (or likely anything by Springfield), but if I ever encounter one in a class I may try and at least get some pictures for my own curiosity.


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