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GJM
06-02-2012, 11:16 PM
I wouldn't agree with all of that. This goes back to the difference between "shooting" and applying shooting to "problem solving" as a piece of a much bigger pie. One of the biggest reasons we had a lot of success with a "Weaver like fighting stance" is the due to the use of a flashlight in combination with a pistol to search and engage with. I spent a lot of years with Mike Harries. When you work a lot with a handheld light, you tend to use a technique that works well with it. Here is reality-the ISO based flashlight techniques totally suck-period. It wasn't till the advent of some of the X series Surefire WML's that you could actually work somewhat competently with a light and a ISO platform. This is still not a replacement in L/E circles for use of a light, BUT a WML will work well for Military units with lesser restrictive ROE's, and for most civilians who are working off reactive response for ID only and not really doing a lot of searching and other tasks with their lights.
.

For shooting, I find the Rogers flashlight technique to be the best of any, excepting a WML, and the Rogers technique works great with the Modern Iso. Nyeti, do you use the Rogers flashlight technique?

Dagga Boy
06-03-2012, 06:22 PM
First: I am finding the conversation above in regards to body position for competition and different applications with different guns interesting on the competitive side of the discussion.

For the field use side, I am going to use GJM's statement to lead into what has been missed on the Gunsite/Modern Technique side of the equation:

"For shooting, I find the Rogers flashlight technique to be the best of any, excepting a WML, and the Rogers technique works great with the Modern Iso. Nyeti, do you use the Rogers flashlight technique?"

Not only do I not use Rogers, it was flat out not allowed to be used by my people. We tested Rogers....It led to issues with negligent discharges under stress conditions in testing. When you use both hands to do essentially the exact same thing with one side giving light, and one a bang is a recipe for disaster. We also had some of the longer fingered guys get fingers in the trigger guard with their support hand. It is a un-natural way to hold a flashlight. You have to use a special light and specialized carrier. Once in it, you are stuck in it, and the light will not flow naturally into use for other tasks well at all. Ken Good told me that in the tens of thousands of simulated gunfights using lights while at the Surefire Institue and Strategos, he used Rogers exactly one time. It is a one trick pony-it is good to shoot with a light in ISO, and does nothing else well, especially searching.

How does this relate to the Modern Technique and Gunsite. What is often missed is that the cornerstone of the Gunsite teaching ideal is the Combat Triad that places EQUAL importance on Mindset (mental), Marksmanship (shooting), and Gun Handling (and tactics). The "shooting" part is only a third of the equation. The shooting part needs to work with the rest in application.

Back to flashlights and application (this is where "context" is really important). On a typical night as a uniformed policeman (different more high risk stuff working crime suppression) in Southern California I would conduct five traffic stops (didn't like writing tickets, so these were stops looking for an arrest), at least the same number or more contacts of pedestrians (dirt bag parolees or gang members), a couple of high risk felony vehicle stops, three commercial building searches and three to five searches of domestic residences (that are in no way shape or form like what members here houses look like) looking for hiding suspects, and at least one solid yard to yard outdoor K9 search for a hiding felon/felons. All of these activities required the use of a flashlight in order to do everything form searching to filling out a traffic citation, checking an ID card, or looking for contraband. Equally, many of these tasks involved the deployment of a pistol in conjunction with the flashlight. Mindset wise, any of these encounters could instantly turn into a shooting. In combination with that would go a ton of threat evaluation and assessments of suspects and their actions. At this point, it should be obvious that "mindset" and "gun handling" were of far greater importance than "marksmanship". Essentially, it was all in preparation to shoot, with a low percentage of having to. Now, when that light illuminates a gun.......and a decsion is made to shoot, you need to go to auto pilot on those marksmanship skills, and the MUST blend with all the other stuff listed above. There is not a single task listed where Rogers flashlight technique would be worth a crap or a superior means of deployment.

If we look back at the history of the application of the Modern Technique in combative situations, you will find that the whole Triad was in play and why many of the proponents of this "style" of shooting are pretty fixed on it. As an example, Larry Mudgett, Scott Reitz, and John Helms have all shot suspects form the Harries. Both of my shootings involved use of the Harries. In the case of Mudgett and Helms, it was during one of the most difficult hostage rescue problems ever encountered by L/E. In all of these cases, the "shooting" technique needed to work with the gun handling requirements for the situation. This is the context that these shooting techniques must be looked at in regards to anti-personnel use. The context will also change drastically for civilian defensive use, undercover/plainclothes use, and military deployment. It all needs to fit together.

GJM
06-03-2012, 07:07 PM
As the Rogers School teaches the Rogers technique, no special light or light holder is required. I use a two cell Streamlight the size of an extended Surefire 1B, which I carry in my front pocket. I have added a rubber band to make the technique easier although it is not required. I also have added a rubber band to my standard Surefire lights, and they work in my light pouches without modification.

The Rogers School shows each of the techniques during the night shoot, and after a WML, the Rogers technique is invariably settled on as the best shooting position by every student. In terms of firing a shot, when you meant to activate the light, a WML with either a DG switch or toggle has to be far more likely to cause an ND, than the motion of the Rogers technique. While hands vary in size, and there are handgun differences, I haven't experienced problems with fingers in the trigger guard, or the technique. Same for my wife.

I agree that it feels unnatural at first, but I regularly practice it, and it feels quite natural, including from transitioning from a conventional searching position. Kyle and Adam, Bill's assistant instructors at Rogers teach the flashlight module -- and both are working LE officers. It is the technique that they use, and feel is most likely to be available, given how often it gets dark, and how often people carry a WML.

I think it is faster to acquire a shooting position with the Rogers technique, as with Harries, as both hands can more or less go out at the same time, as opposed to the Harries where the pistol goes out, followed by the flashlight. I think you are far more likely to cover yourself with the Harries, because of how your hand has to move.

I definitely respect your right to any opinion and flashlight technique, but I respectfully disagree with your assertion there is no good ISO flashlight technique, and that in particular, there is something wrong with the Rogers technique. In summary, in my testing on the Rogers Range and my own practice, I shoot the Rogers technique far better than any other method than a WML, using the same lights I would normally carry, and it fully integrates into my regular method of using a flashlight. As an Alaskan, for half the year we get a lot of practice with darkness.

JV_
06-03-2012, 07:12 PM
the Rogers technique is invariably settled on as the best shooting position by every student.With was definitely NOT the case in my class.

LOKNLOD
06-03-2012, 07:24 PM
I'm interested in hearing more about the low light techniques, but it's a bit of a tangent RE: pistol technique history. Perhaps it could be broken off in it's own thread? It's a worthwhile topic in its own right.

JV_
06-03-2012, 07:29 PM
Thread split from: Pistol Shooting Techniques
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4323-History-of-pistol-shooting-techniques&p=75363#post75363

Please keep this thread about flashlight techniques.

Shokr21
06-03-2012, 07:55 PM
I have a white light on my fighting rifle, I think it's common sense to also have a white light on my fighting pistol.

I'll be the first to admit that I am far from being well versed in low light pistol techniques, but a wml just seems easy.

I'll be watching and reading this thread with interest.

Dagga Boy
06-03-2012, 08:02 PM
I have no answer other than I worked 19 years of nights in SoCal, been in and at multiple low light shootings, have tried everything out there and found Rogers sucks, but is better than the Ayoob technique that is terrible. Try Rogers with a full size rechargeable Maglite or even a Stinger. Look at typical cop lights. DOes it work with any light you can pick up anywhere? If you want to dedicate yourself to Rogers, knock yourself out.

With that said, I have found the simplest system is to run Harries, Reverse Harries and Neck Index. My hand position never changes, I can flow seamlessly through all three as needed, I can use the light for impact and control, and I can hold the light the way normal people would grab and use a flashlight. It is easy to stow the light for reloads, and I can draw into it from any position. At work I carried a full size rechargeable Mag-Lite, some 6P sized variant, and at times added 9 and 12 Volt Surefires, as well as an Aviator. Any can go down, any may end up in your hand.

Night searches tended to put me in very contorted positions and also required a ton of movement. When I do a open door to interior search, my light can end up in all three positions while pieing the doorway. I may have to then move the light into a position to do some wall painting and flashing prior to entry into my blind corners and rapidly flow that light back into a Harries. Try this holding a light like a syringe and get back to me. Same goes when somebody who is a non-shoot charges you....ask yourself how do I want to be holding the light when I attempt to deflect or repel that assault-like a club or like a syringe. If you think that bad guys without guns will charge you when you are pointing a gun at them-you are very wrong. I have found that a hard strike with a full size Maglite or the strike bezel of a Surefire is a big help in this regard.

Lots of people can get the support hand press for light, strong hand press for bang.............I found people used to surprise stress engagements who screwed this process up. You are placing a bet at this point. THe same with thinking that you will be able to change hand positions rapidly under stress with a light.

Oh yea, I do not shoot as good out of Harries or neck index as with two hands on the gun. I know this going in. It is why I want to maximize my light work to be in ahead of the curve in a low light encounter. I got to find the threat, ID the threat, evaluate its intentions, and then make a shoot/don't shoot threat elimination decision. This is all heavily dependent on how well I run the light before we even get to the pressing the trigger portion.

For what its worth, if I was just looking to shoot through a problem with a handheld light, I would use the Graham technique at this point.

I do have dedicated WML pistols, but they are not what I carry daily. It is a HUGE help, but not a replacement in any way shape or form for a handheld. You need both, and I place a priority on the handheld for something you should ALWAYS have.

DocGKR
06-03-2012, 08:45 PM
GJM--I am unaware of your background...have you ever used a hand held light in a LE capacity?

As I stated in the split thread, there is no one "perfect" light technique and I tend to move through several depending on the dynamics of an encounter. Using a handheld light, I tend to initially default to Harries or a Harries variant as this is a great way to search and is not particularly fatiguing for me, however there are times when a Rogers/modified Rogers is better (ex. when a right hand shooter is moving to the left from behind right side cover). Likewise, when in a situation where pointing a firearm at a subject may not be appropriate, yet I still want me pistol in hand, a neck-index light hold is useful. I just keep my light in my left hand and flow through the different light positions as needed. Remember, 99% of the time, I use my hand held light to search, identify, and control situations, NOT to shoot, thus the light technique that is perfect for pure shooting may NOT be the best option for the majority of tasks that must be accomplished besides actual shooting...

Dagga Boy
06-03-2012, 08:53 PM
"however there are times when a Rogers/modified Rogers is better (ex. when a right hand shooter is moving to the left from behind right side cover)."

Doc, this is where I use reverse Harries so that I never have to change hand position on the light and it flows fast from both Harries or off neck index.

GJM
06-03-2012, 09:05 PM
GJM--I am unaware of your background...have you ever used a hand held light in a LE capacity?..

I have not, is it a prerequisite to participate in this discussion?

GJM
06-03-2012, 09:32 PM
Nyeti, as I said, you are entitled to your opinions and preferences, and I would never say they are wrong for you. I do disagree that the Rogers technique sucks, and find it works best for me.

You and I have had friendly discussions over time on various topics, both on and off forums. We agree on a lot more than we disagree on. I believe that you are convinced the Weaver is the best technique, and nothing is going to change your mind. With that knowledge, I watched you start on the pistol history thread with the concept that the Weaver is the best fighting stance, then migrate to where we are, by stating that the modern ISO is a poor stance for use with a light. If you are a Weaver shooter, almost every solution involves the Weaver. Probably vice versa for a Modern Iso shooter.

Since I infrequently carry a handgun with a WML, always carry a light, shoot with the modern ISO, and often have a .44 magnum with hard cast ammo, or a 10 with heavy loads, I have needed to find a flashlight technique that works for me in shooting accurately BUT also controlling recoil. The Rogers technique does, and after over a dozen courses with night training (Gunsite, TR, Randy Cain, Pat Rogers, Louie A, Rogers School) I think I have been exposed to them all.

orionz06
06-03-2012, 09:38 PM
Southnarc's AMIS class is one hell of a way to see how your preferred light technique stacks up. Never once have I seen so many people with a bajillion hours under so many awesome guru's begin to question why they ever did what they did. Byron can explain it far better than I can so I won't butcher it here.

TGS
06-03-2012, 09:58 PM
Great comments so far, guys.

The only training I've had on flashlights was with John Murphy's ACSD course, where we did a few hours of night fire. We got to try out a few different techniques and then run some drills with them. With little experience in light applications, I find the neck index to be extraordinarily easier. Obviously, I haven't done much training with it, and have never used them on the job or in any real-life application whatsoever. So, awesome comments. Nyeti, you have some really good insights that I'm enjoying. I'd really like to hear from some of the other BTDT guys, such as SouthNarc and Rich Verdi (if he still posts here).

As someone who hasn't trained for years on flashlight techniques, I get somewhat confused with the different names at times. So, here's some pictures I looked up that can serve as a quick-reference in this thread for the most popular techniques. I am in no way trying to steal the thunder of the source; credit is due to the Big Stick Combat Blog (http://bigstickcombat.wordpress.com/category/technique/):

Chapman Technique
813

Rogers Technique
817

Neck Index
816

Harries Technique
815

FBI Technique
814

ToddG
06-03-2012, 10:05 PM
With was definitely NOT the case in my class.

Ditto. I struggled with it for years. I still remember the day I got my first 6Z because it was supposed to "do the Rogers" so much more easily than the 6P I'd been carrying for years. But -- in no small part because I've got short fingers -- holding the light Rogers style basically prevents me from wrapping any meaningful amount of grip around the pistol frame. So I end up with no improvement to recoil control.

I'm a "temple index" guy, myself. It's not perfect and it's not universally applicable, but nine times out of ten that's how I'll be holding a flashlight when I have a gun in my hand, and I simply do my shooting SHO.

Dagga Boy
06-03-2012, 10:09 PM
I actually really hate the term Weaver, but it seems that "Weaverish" is a way to describe it in print. I shoot from my F.I. position and how I naturally position my body to fight. Most pistol fights are not much different than a fist fight. I have a simple rule in which I do not like both arms locked in front of me. Good way to shoot pistols, and a poor way to fight. Pat Rogers and I are pretty close on stance and deployment. I do not blade as much as many of the older Gunsite guys. Another issue is I tend to remain fairly fluid in my ability to move the gun. I have had several take away attempts done on me......learning occured and I realized that the ability to get a gun out of a fight is as important as getting it into a fight. SouthNarc and I share a lot of the same thoughts, yet we use a little different technique due mainly to some size and training differences, but we are usually looking to solve the same problems.

I have also changed, evolved, de-evolved over the years on many issues with experience. I shot really good in hard ISO before I was a cop and in the academy. I used the Ayoob light technique..........for exactly two days on the job and found out that what worked on the range was not compatible with what I was seeing in my "new" world....graveyard weekend nights in a busy SoCal city. My job required a TON of flashlight work, so I lean heavy on it, and have seen and deployed lights in some pretty unique situations.

Fast forward to working high end executive/VIP stuff. My training was more geared towards "shooting" than prisoner taking and searching because I was in a position where I was not going to be deploying a pistol unless I was going to be shooting.

Now, retired, my needs are again different. I still work off my L/E foundation because that is what the house is built on.

For a lone person making a decision on what to do for technique, you have to be pretty clear. The problem is most are working off what they "think" might happen. You become very instructor dependent. GJM and I do just fine exchanging ideas. We differ on Rogers. I look at it as a good mechanical shooting program, which is not really my thing. Neat stuff, hope to go someday, but I have a bunch of people ahead that I want to train with. I am blessed and cursed that I have worked in a literally lab that is GREAT for a dedicated student of gunfighting. I am also disabled because of it. I have tried just about everything out there. I fall back to what I have seen consistently work for dealing with evil people. I also know that there are lots of things that work for dealing with bad people. I just apply technique to my world, and urban U.S. bad people. Dealing with bears and wilderness........somebody else's world. Stinky bad guys in far away lands...somebody elses world.

On low light stuff, I am pretty confident that what I do works, and not by one lucky encounter. Hopefully, if others have to use these techniques, they will work for you. I am just in a position of not having to deal with "hopefully's", and can work off of experience.

Wayne Dobbs
06-03-2012, 10:11 PM
GJM,

While going to lots of schools is a generally good thing, there's nothing that matches doing the deed in the dark for real in an operational, not a training, setting. You lack that frame of reference and that doesn't assist your position. Like Nyeti, I worked many years of nights in patrol ops, plain clothes deployment ops and street narcotics enforcement. You very quickly learn that you don't know as much as you think you do and that while training is desirable and even required (or should be), it's NOT the same thing as street ops and the discoveries and refinements that take place in that arena if you are paying attention.

One thing that is still getting overlooked is that 99.8% of the time, you are simply seaching, looking, scanning and managing unknown contacts in an often dynamic, diminished light setting. You very rarely shoot at anybody and if you're doing things well, you don't often put a muzzle on folks although you may draw to some kind of ready position. Most of the firearms training schools out there teach that lonely 0.02% and pay lip service to what actually happens the overwhelming majority of the time. That's because when we go to school we want to shoot and the folks out there presenting these classes want to make money by presenting lots of shooting. There are some few trainers out there doing low light training and good on them, because it's needed, but most don't. The really scary thing about that is that most of the shooting encounters in LE and private citizen shooting are in those low light settings for which few have adequately and realistically trained, since their training experiences have been in broad daylight on a flat range at known distances with stationary targets.

While I know that having an opportunity to "sack up, strap up and live in our world" is highly unlikely, you need to know that going to lots of schools makes you the rough equivalent of a college professor who has never lived in the world for which he is educating his students. He may be academically brilliant, but he's not operationally capable. Until you've had extensive experiences with managing lights, weapons, radios, assisting officers, uninvolved personnel, unknown personnel and suspects at the same time, you don't know yet what you don't know.

TGS
06-03-2012, 10:13 PM
Fast forward to working high end executive/VIP stuff. My training was more geared towards "shooting" than prisoner taking and searching because I was in a position where I was not going to be deploying a pistol unless I was going to be shooting.

What light technique did you use for this context?

cclaxton
06-03-2012, 10:18 PM
I personally like the FBI approach, although I just shot a IDPA match where I used the technique and had marginal results. The scenario was that you are in a dimly lit high class restaurant with candle lighting only. You are having dinner with your significant other when 6 guys come in for a mob hit about 21 feet away from your table. Shots must be fired from the table. There are, of course, other non-threats. I found it difficult to get the light exactly where I wanted it so I can see my sights and the target, but once I did I shot faster and more accurately. I also like the idea that you can distract a gunman by holding the light away from your body.

Good news: all targets had good hits...bad news is that I was down 30....hard to see the holes even with a good flashlight.

I still like the FBI method, but I can see I need to do more dryfire practice to get it repeatable.

CC

Dagga Boy
06-03-2012, 10:21 PM
I (and the guys on my teams) used lights A LOT. Many of our guys were limited to lights and folders as there only weapons. My light stuff was exactly the same-I hold it like a club, and go from there. That club like hold can be used to strike, illuminate, strobe and move, and freely flows into Harries (note:in the above picture, it is not set deep enough), Reverse Harries, or neck index. I can also paint and flash from the same grip. I am never without a E2DL at minimum.

What changed is that working in daylight and practicing, I was a little more locked in and geared towards a solid draw and shooting speed than on searching technique and deploying from a ready position.

ToddG
06-03-2012, 10:29 PM
nyeti and Wayne, you know I love you guys but I'm throwing the flag on the "until you've been there" play.

All of the instructors at Rogers are experienced LE and/or military guys. They've all worked at night. They prefer the Rogers technique.

All of the Surefire Institute stuff (much of which formed the genesis of the Strategos program) came from experienced military and LE guys, too. And they don't agree with the guys at Rogers, who don't agree with what you're saying.

I could go on and on. Clearly, reasonable experienced people who've studied this stuff at length have come to different conclusions. It would be stupid to ignore what you guys have learned and concluded from your experience. But it would also be stupid to ignore what those other guys have learned and concluded from theirs.

Getting more specific, i know from experience that I can shoot better SHO/temple index than from a Harries. I can maintain the temple index with absolutely no fatigue, and it's very easy to make it work with L and R barricades without changing my grip or having to move the light much at all. It gives me completely independence between where the light is pointed and where the gun is pointed. I'm genuinely curious what you find in Harries (and I'm unfamiliar with "reverse Harries") that you feel has an advantage over that. I'm happy with play with it again -- I haven't shot Harries in years other than a few shots here and there while teaching -- if there's a legitimate benefit.

Wayne Dobbs
06-03-2012, 10:49 PM
Todd,

There is obvious cross over and obvious differences between all the schools of thought here for sure. My concern is that some folks are jumping in here as quasi-authorities when they have exactly ZERO operational experience of dealing with turds (or suspected ones) in the dark. I've used the Harries, Chapman, neck index and temple index methods in various situations on street contacts, suspect searches in fields and structures and even one in a dryer! I'm not tied to any TTP unless it works. I find the Rogers technique to be awkward for me, so I don't use it. If somebody else does, then they should drive on with it. It does NOT work with a duty style flashlight, so it's a non-starter for most LE officers.

I will listen to (and promply steal) the methods and information of any credible source of information on anything out there, be they mil, LE, PSD or otherwise. The uninformed, inexperienced and untested theoretical sources don't get my attention. And on that one, I shall retire for the evening!

Lomshek
06-03-2012, 10:50 PM
Does anyone use the Graham technique? In my civilian shooting experience of USPSA style night matches and training it gives me the fastest target acquisition, best recoil control, splits and accuracy. I've practiced the Harries & Rogers before that and neither of them worked as well. The separate hand techniques (FBI or neck index) don't seem to gain anything in ease of use and shooting SHO definitely doesn't help your shooting ability. WML is, of course, better by far but when using a handheld the Graham has worked best.

I can't argue the best for a search but have not had any issues with it in shooting from awkward positions, under, through or around barriers and during movement.

Here's an image of it in use by Mr. Graham.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/062-am.gif

Unlike him I mount the combat ring to my ring finger and run the light between my middle and ring fingers (one finger down from him). For my hand size (5'9" average hands) that gives me the best index and weapon control. The ring allows me to retain the light with no wasted motion if I need to reload, clear a malfunction or open a door and if I need to separate my hands for any reason I can still use the light by closing my fist and pressing the tailcap against my palm.

ToddG
06-03-2012, 10:58 PM
Wayne -- I'm with you. As I said, I agree that Rogers is (for me) awkward and like you it doesn't work with the flashlight I choose to carry every day. But enough other folks like it (including guys who have checked the BTDT box) that I've got a hard time rejecting it wholesale or criticizing someone who has trained with those guys and chose to adopt it as a result.

Dagga Boy
06-03-2012, 11:13 PM
Lomshek-I stated above if I was looking for a pure "shooting with a flashlight" technique, it would probably be Graham.

Todd, no problem. Again, I know for fact what works in the field through thousands live contacts to support my conclusions. Its the only card I have, so we'll just fold and move on. Whatever works best for an IDPA match is probably fine too, so I'll just climb back under the rock, read and learn. Carry on.

GJM
06-03-2012, 11:15 PM
Todd, if you are carrying the Quark, I find the operation of its end cap to be impossible to do the Rogers with. Streamlight, same size, works fine.

Wayne, if you are referring to me, as claiming to be the quasi authority, that sure isn't my intention. I never suggested what's best for being a night shift police officer. I said, from the beginning, that I find the Rogers as being the second best SHOOTING flashlight position, after a WML. That is based on shooting, not acting as a LE person, and specifically considering my needs which are to be able to shoot a heavy caliber revolver or 10mm at night, and control recoil. It took a while to grow on me, but Kyle and Adam at Rogers told me to persevere, and now I am completely comfortable with it. Besides Rogers instructors, they are working police officers, responsible for training and members of their SWAT team.

If the standard for discussing flashlight techniques is having worked as a LE officer, the standard for discussing pistol shooting is having shot multiple people, and the standard for discussing wound ballistics is having done autopsies, we are going to have a quite a different forum than we do here at PF.

Lomshek
06-03-2012, 11:22 PM
Sorry Nyeti, I just reread the thread and saw that on page 1. Must have missed it the first time through.

ToddG
06-03-2012, 11:39 PM
Whatever works best for an IDPA match is probably fine too, so I'll just climb back under the rock, read and learn. Carry on.

Dude. I never mentioned IDPA (which I haven't shot in four years) nor would most IDPA folks opt for neck/temple index.

My question was sincere and still stands: what does Harries (and reverse Harries, which I'd still like to hear about or at least see a photo of) do, in your opinion/experience, that one-handed shooting doesn't?

KeeFus
06-04-2012, 07:04 AM
I recently took a 2 day low/light tactical firearms class which included Force on Force w/ simunitions on the first day and then an evening at the range in the second. We experimented with Harries, Rogers, neck indexing, the ole FBI hold the light in the weak hand way out to the side, Ayoob Technique, and the Graham, as well as others. The thing that settled most with me was what the instructor said..."Use what works for you". So, on the second day of training I decided to use my Streamlight SL-20 and neck index and the Rogers technique with my Streamlight Nightfighter LED. I liked both and had no issues with either...with the caveat being that the Rogers technique would get awfully close to the mag release.

I really liked the Rogers technique and shot well and fast with it. The others just felt awkward. So much that I just disregarded them.

I work patrol so I settled in with the neck index...reference stopping a lot of cars at night. I shot well, albeit slower, with it.

I think it all comes down to application. If I'm stopping cars or just about anything else while @ work I'm using the neck index. It places the light where I can see what needs to be seen and can be used as an impact weapon should it be needed. If I turn my head the light follows. I ALWAYS (day or night) carry the SL-20 on my belt. Its heavy but it has a dual purpose. I've always seemed to use the larger flashlights in a similiar manner...carrying it with my weak hand craddled on my shoulder. The drawbacks that I have found with this technique is that it's SHO and magazine changes are slower. Its not the optimum but after 17 years it seems to work the best for me. Having that SL-20 as a buffer when an attack or resistance starts has always been beneficial.

Now, when it comes to IDPA I use the Nightfighter LED & I use the Rogers technique. Plain and simple...it's just faster. On magazine changes I can simply grab the mag while still holding the light. That being said, I have only shot 1 low light/dark stage at a sanctioned match and 1 Day/Night match in 4 or 5 years of shooting IDPA.

Why the difference in shooting styles? The paper targets...I dont need to smack them as they dont threaten me all that much. :p

LSP972
06-04-2012, 07:37 AM
He may be academically brilliant, but he's not operationally capable. Until you've had extensive experiences with managing lights, weapons, radios, assisting officers, uninvolved personnel, unknown personnel and suspects at the same time, you don't know yet what you don't know.

Beautifully put.

What a polite way of saying, "If you haven't got the T-shirt, you really don't know what you're talking about."

.

TCinVA
06-04-2012, 08:01 AM
The important bit with light techniques is to understand them and to have enough familiarity with them to know whether or not X or Y technique works for you. I can use the Rogers technique fairly well because my hands are sufficiently large to let me operate the light and still get a meaningful grip on the weapon with the remaining fingers of my left hand. From a pure shooting perspective, I've found that I don't suffer much of a penalty in my ability to put rounds on target on command over using a standard two handed hold.

But that's the thing that Nyeti and others are hitting against: Rarely is use of the light something you're doing in a pure shooting situation. It typically involves searching and if you are a right handed shooter and you encounter a corner that opens to your right, you now have to move the light to the other side of the gun if you want to do anything but illuminate the wall in front of you. When you actually start searching through real structures (because crackheads do not hide in shoothouses or at eye level) you start to find out that there's no single technique that is going to get it done in all circumstances. The Rogers technique is something I would likely employ for a bump-in-the-night scenario where I'm a static defender of home and family. In that situation I'm not terribly worried about pointing my gun at a potential intruder and I really would like to be able to shoot as fast and accurately as possible. I've also spent a considerable amount of time practicing with the Rogers technique so that I can use it without much fuss. That being said, I keep an X200 on the pistol when it is doing night stand duty 90+% of the time so it's a moot point.

If I'm not playing static defense and instead I'm forced to go looking for a potential problem in my house, I'm likely to use a more "free" technique if I feel the need to have a gun in my hand...something like the Harries or jaw index.

I like the Rogers technique more than any other in terms of putting bullets on a target on demand...but if I'm not on a square range or a situation which gives free license to have a gun in my hand and not care too much about who it gets pointed at, I'm probably going to be using something else.

EDIT - Since Harries was mentioned specifically, I find that when properly applied with the isometric tension it helps with my ability to place an accurate shot. It's not as good as a two handed hold or the Rogers technique, but I find that the stabilization of forcing the back of my hands together helps compensate a bit for a sub-optimal trigger pull a bit.

cclaxton
06-04-2012, 08:41 AM
Let me ask a fundamental question here: How important is lighting your gun sights?

It seems to me that the Rodgers and Harries might be faster, but wont light the sights, will they be accurate enough?

I am not LE and shoot IDPA, so that is my orientation. My carry gun has Tritium, and my competition has fiberoptic if that matters.

Thanks,
CC

TCinVA
06-04-2012, 08:49 AM
Let me ask a fundamental question here: How important is lighting your gun sights?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If by "lighting the sights" you mean illuminating the sights themselves, it's a terrible idea because if the light is on your sights it's not actually illuminating the threat/target downrange and you won't hit beans or see what's happening downrange.

If by "lighting the sights" you mean lighting up the threat/target downrange sufficiently so that you can see the shilouette of your sights against it, that's pretty darn important if you intend to hit anything. Especially if your sights do not glow or if you don't have a laser. Tritium/a laser helps immensely in that it allows you to process a "good enough" sight picture faster when stuff glows in a dark environment vice trying to judge "good enough" with plain black sights.



It seems to me that the Rodgers and Harries might be faster, but wont light the sights, will they be accurate enough?


Assuming you mean the second definition of "lighting the sights" either technique will accomplish that. Light isn't a static thing. What you actually need from a purely shooting perspective is enough light to see what you need to see to make the shot. With proper practice of either technique you get to the point where you orient the hotspot of the light in more or less the place where your sights are aimed so that when you present on a target the hottest part of the light is available to give you the best contrast for your sights.

Dropkick
06-04-2012, 08:51 AM
I've attended a low-light live fire practice session, a FOF structure w/ low-light components class, and occasionally break out a training pistol to practice low-light. I don't have years of flight time in any operational environment. So if anything sounds wrong or stupid, please point it out so I can learn something...

From the different techniques I've tried, I put them into two categories, "hands together" or "hands apart."

Hands Together: I originally started out trying these. I thought they'd be the best of both worlds. I thought I'd be able to get a two hand grip on the pistol, and operate the flashlight. Not one of the techniques I tried was very good at either. The grip or the operation of the light always seemed like a compromise. I felt like I was always juggling both the light and pistol and never really had a good grip on either. I can't juggle tennis balls, so the thought of juggling the pistol and light in the dark was a scary one. I also came to realize that not everything that needs to be lit up needs to have a muzzle pointed at it, and Hands Together doesn't do that. (I liked the comment about the 99.8% searching, and .2% shooting. I'd say even smaller numbers for us guys who don't do that for our living.)

I don't have any experience with WMLs, but in my mind I toss them in with the Hands Together techniques for what are obvious reasons.

Hands Apart: Thanks to some really great instructors I was "illuminated" to a couple different techniques. I was first introduced to Neck Index, which showed me I needed to work on my SHO. (...and learning to shoot SHO better isn't a bad thing!) After neck index I was shown FBI. Other's experiences showed that people shot at lights, so if the light isn't near your head or body, hopefully there is a lower chance of getting shot from incoming fire. The FBI is by no means an easy technique for me to learn, but after seeing it used in a FOF class, I was very impressed with it.

My experiences are my own, so these are just my observations. However, some other things to think about are flashlight selection (I've got a small investment in various lights) and movement. I feel like some techniques were better for "stand and deliver" shooting and others were better for "shooting while scooting" so there's that to possibly discussed too.

Lomshek
06-04-2012, 10:15 AM
Beautifully put.

What a polite way of saying, "If you haven't got the T-shirt, you really don't know what you're talking about."

.

I'll dispute this. It seems like a lot of the arguments that way revolve around conducting the normal duties of a cop outside of gunfighting. The problem is I'm not a cop and have no desire to play one.

Those of us who are not LEO (or .mil) will never carry a light heavy enough to use as a bludgeon, and probably won't be tasked with searching fields, warehouses or approaching a vehicle we pulled over at night.

My mindset as a civilian 24/7 CCW is that if I am using my handheld light in a threat environment the chances of it being a shooting situation are pretty high. If the lights simply went out and I just need to find an exit then my 6P/G2/E1E will work fine without my gun and I can still draw and fire my gun SHO if I needed to.

The one in a billion active shooter in a movie theater (or Mumbai type power out in the mall) I just happen to be in the middle of scenario comes to mind. Personally there won't be any situations where I insert myself into a situation that is not a deadly threat I am forced into. I won't try to settle fights or calm drunks down and definitely won't be "investigating" suspicious characters ala George Zimmerman.

Home defense is (for me) a separate situation since I'll have a full size gun and WML.

All that is a long way of explaining why the light/gun technique I chose is one that focuses on best shooting performance for me (Graham) not on searching or managing those around me. I practice other techiniques for familiarity just in case but I have my default technique.

phil_in_cs
06-04-2012, 10:17 AM
My two cents, based on SouthNarc’s AMIS, additional low light FOF and instruction from a friend with a lot of time searching dark houses in Afghanistan:

Your concepts need to drive your techniques, not the other way around. Our concepts:
1) It is dark, and we need to see.
2) Light draws fire.
3) We don’t want to point a weapon at someone we don’t want to shoot.

Completely ignoring how you hold the light, you must be able to accomplish these tasks. If your only light is mounted on your weapon, you are unable to do the third. A weapon mounted light makes shooting much easier.

Our OODA loop is Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. If you add a light into that mix you get:
LIGHT ON – Observe – LIGHT OFF - MOVE! – Orient, Decide, Act. Act may require additional light.

If you can get these concept implemented and make accurate hits, it really doesn’t matter which of the specific techniques you use. I use a mix of neck index and FBI/"Waving the light around" depending on how tight the space is, and shoot one handed.

David Armstrong
06-04-2012, 10:36 AM
Having been around when many of these were developed, and having tried pretty much everything under the sun, I ended up with the Harries as my basic default choice followed by the neck-index. If those don't cover it I just use the old FBI "hold the light up and way" method.

David Armstrong
06-04-2012, 10:44 AM
Dude. I never mentioned IDPA (which I haven't shot in four years) nor would most IDPA folks opt for neck/temple index.

My question was sincere and still stands: what does Harries (and reverse Harries, which I'd still like to hear about or at least see a photo of) do, in your opinion/experience, that one-handed shooting doesn't?
Don't know how to post photos, but here is a link to another forum that has pics of the various methods:
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/SHOOTING-LIGHT-t8367.html

ford.304
06-04-2012, 10:56 AM
Those of us who are not LEO (or .mil) will never carry a light heavy enough to use as a bludgeon,

That actually seems to be a fair amount of the difference. Rogers seems to require a flashlight that is too small to do the various other things a LEO uses his flashlight for.

Lomshek
06-04-2012, 10:58 AM
Your concepts need to drive your techniques, not the other way around. Our concepts:
1) It is dark, and we need to see.
2) Light draws fire.
3) We don’t want to point a weapon at someone we don’t want to shoot.

Completely ignoring how you hold the light, you must be able to accomplish these tasks. If your only light is mounted on your weapon, you are unable to do the third. A weapon mounted light makes shooting much easier.


I would guess most reading this don't turn their light on constant and wander around investigating sounds so I question the concept of use a handheld to ID a threat then engage with a WML.

We acknowledge that a WML is the best but must use a handheld to find a threat and only then point the gun at said threat, activate WML and fire SHO thus taking longer and reducing our accuracy vs. using two hands on the gun. How much longer does that give the threat to shoot us while we are transitioning lights and engaging from a weakened position?

Is that the TTP for SWAT type teams clearing rooms as well? They don't dare point a gun at someone they are not going to shoot so they use a handheld light and keep the gun at some safe ready position until the decision to fire has been made. I'm just some guy but that seems to conflict with the realities of dangerous encounters.

JHC
06-04-2012, 11:10 AM
My two cents, based on SouthNarc’s AMIS, additional low light FOF and instruction from a friend with a lot of time searching dark houses in Afghanistan:

Your concepts need to drive your techniques, not the other way around. Our concepts:
1) It is dark, and we need to see.
2) Light draws fire.
3) We don’t want to point a weapon at someone we don’t want to shoot.

Completely ignoring how you hold the light, you must be able to accomplish these tasks. If your only light is mounted on your weapon, you are unable to do the third. A weapon mounted light makes shooting much easier.

Our OODA loop is Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. If you add a light into that mix you get:
LIGHT ON – Observe – LIGHT OFF - MOVE! – Orient, Decide, Act. Act may require additional light.
If you can get these concept implemented and make accurate hits, it really doesn’t matter which of the specific techniques you use. I use a mix of neck index and FBI/"Waving the light around" depending on how tight the space is, and shoot one handed.

Great post. The bolded part reflects the emphasis Ken Hackathorn put on this subject back in Dec.

Wayne Dobbs
06-04-2012, 11:30 AM
We acknowledge that a WML is the best but must use a handheld to find a threat and only then point the gun at said threat, activate WML and fire SHO thus taking longer and reducing our accuracy vs. using two hands on the gun. How much longer does that give the threat to shoot us while we are transitioning lights and engaging from a weakened position?

Is that the TTP for SWAT type teams clearing rooms as well? They don't dare point a gun at someone they are not going to shoot so they use a handheld light and keep the gun at some safe ready position until the decision to fire has been made. I'm just some guy but that seems to conflict with the realities of dangerous encounters.


You have hit on the conundrum of all of this WML vs handheld light vs which TTP to use. The cold hard truth is that all of this is a very obvious compromise of what to do and when to do it and to whom in situations that are clearly dangerous and in which the initial advantage often lies with the bad guy side. Whether we want to admit it or not, we all would love a set of answers that will ensure success for us and doom for the bad guy side. Unfortunately, there aren't any of those answers. The other ugly truth is that there are lots of muzzles being oriented on folks when there shouldn't be in all of those situations. Adding to that, the WML, improperly used, really aggravates the problem. We now have some clearcut cases of that and the dead suspects to prove it, and they weren't shot justifiably. There are even more uses observed in field encounters of stupid WML use, especially by the cops, who have used them for DL/ID lights, traffic direction lights and navigational aids. This sort of assclown behavior drives professional users and trainers nuts and it hurts development of the craft for all.

With proper selection of handheld lights and WMLs (another set of problems entirely) AND proper training in the use of that equipment, followed by solid field use validation of various TTPs, we start to get where we need to be on things. The problem is, most of what folks do in this realm is nowhere close to the level of knowledge and competence that is truly required to call it any kind of competence. It is further complicated by various "practicioners" having successes (or what they believe is a success) in the field using poor technique, poor tactics and poor equipment and getting lucky and thinking they have arrived, knowledge and skill wise.

What most don't want to hear is the truth and that is we have to have both handheld lights and WMLs and we have to have lots of training and practice in their use. We have to work hard enough and long enough to find out what works for our particular ergonomic requirements and for our operational demands. Most of us don't have the facilities available to do that and that's damn near criminal for lots of organizations. Most of us can't or won't spend the time for various reasons and most of us would rather go shoot drills or stages in the daylight and hope this is never an issue we will have to deal with.

KeeFus
06-04-2012, 11:55 AM
The other ugly truth is that there are lots of muzzles being oriented on folks when there shouldn't be in all of those situations. Adding to that, the WML, improperly used, really aggravates the problem. We now have some clearcut cases of that and the dead suspects to prove it, and they weren't shot justifiably. There are even more uses observed in field encounters of stupid WML use, especially by the cops, who have used them for DL/ID lights, traffic direction lights and navigational aids. This sort of assclown behavior drives professional users and trainers nuts and it hurts development of the craft for all.




^^^THIS^^^ is exactly why when our policy was rewritten I was adamant that we not use WML's. I have seen some crazy crap over the years and I know that we have to figure for the lowest denominator. The only one's at our agency that have WML's are the TAC team guys...about 8 guys. I have suggested their use for K-9 for the obvious reasons. Even then, they should be properly trained by a qualified instructor.

Even at home I do not use WML's. With 4 kids I'd hate to sweep/aim at one of them in the middle of the night after being startled from sleep.

Wayne Dobbs
06-04-2012, 12:08 PM
KeeFus,

You fell into the standard LE/Govt/Mil bureaucratic trap of depriving the very folks who need a WML more than your SWAT dudes (chicks?). How many low light encounters do your patrol guys manage vs the number SWAT does? If you knew the truth that ratio will be dozens or hundreds of times the number that SWAT has. Take a leadership position instead of a management one. TRAIN and equip all your competent cops, which will be most of them. If you have an LCD on your hands, fix him/her or get rid of them. Depriving many for the inadequacies of a couple is wrong, but it is an easy move from a desk. My stance has always been to train the regular troops to a high standard, since they are the ones that are going to manage most of your potential deadly encounters first and usually alone. Why wouldn't you prepare them well for that?

And, you can use a WML properly on your house guns and never sweep anybody, but that's for another time.

ToddG
06-04-2012, 12:15 PM
I agree with Wayne 100%. If your people cannot be trusted to follow safety rules with a WML, they cannot be trusted to follow safety rules with just the "W" by itself.

I've seen cops do incredibly stupid/dangerous things with WMLs in training, especially FoF training. That doesn't mean they're better off without a WML.

Coyotesfan97
06-04-2012, 12:28 PM
When I step out of my car at night I have five lights on me. I have a rechargeable Maglite ( which can double as an impact weapon), a Pelican 7060, a Stremlight Polytac 90, a Surefire X300 WML, and a small AAA pen light in a vest pocket. The Maglite is kept in the door handle but the others are in pouches or on my belt. Five sounds like a lot but after I drained three lights on a three-four hour long area search I like having extras. The penlight is surprisingly bright in a dark backyard but it's mostly used to read stuff in low light.

The light I use at any given time is dependent on what I'm doing. On a traffic stop or subject stop I use the Maglite. I grab it with my left hand as I step out. It's usually above my left shoulder in a neck index on approach. I use neck index or Harries for the big Maglite.

If I'm searching a building I'll have the pistol with the WML in my primary hand. If I need to illuminate something I dont want to cover with my handgun I'll use the Pelican. I like turning on lights as I come to them on searches inside especially long hallways and big rooms. With the Pelican if needed I use the Chapman or Harries.

On searches with my dog outside my left wrist has the leash handle around it with itvrunning across the palm of my support hand. I've found I can use the Pelican and the Streamlight in my support hand along with the leash but it's awkward at times. Sometimes the light is in my strong hand. A lot of the time I'm dependent on the cover Officers searching with me for lethal cover.

If needed I can use the WML to clear around deep corners as I come to them. Usually the dog can't go around corners out of your sight before you clear them. For shooting with the dog I'm dependent on the WML and more than likely it'll be SHO until I can drop the leash (if I can).

When I'm searching with my dog outside I try to use lights as little as possible. When your eyes get adjusted to ambient light especially moonlit nights you can see a lot without them. You get used to moving through the darkness. Plus your dog's eyes are much better suited to lowlight along with his main talent of using his nose.

I usually search with one or two cover Officers. Between me, the dog and them we are making noise as we search. I don't like light pinpointing exactly where the noise is coming from. Flashlights behind me illuminate me and the dog. Plus dogs like to cheat and they quickly learn where we point lights the bad guy is often found. So they use their eyes and not their nose.

We have quarterly low light shoot training where we review and use all of the flashlight techniques, shoot with night sights only, and shooting with a squad cars LED lightbar flashing red/blue strobes.

KeeFus
06-04-2012, 03:13 PM
KeeFus,

You fell into the standard LE/Govt/Mil bureaucratic trap of depriving the very folks who need a WML more than your SWAT dudes (chicks?). How many low light encounters do your patrol guys manage vs the number SWAT does? If you knew the truth that ratio will be dozens or hundreds of times the number that SWAT has. Take a leadership position instead of a management one. TRAIN and equip all your competent cops, which will be most of them. If you have an LCD on your hands, fix him/her or get rid of them. Depriving many for the inadequacies of a couple is wrong, but it is an easy move from a desk. My stance has always been to train the regular troops to a high standard, since they are the ones that are going to manage most of your potential deadly encounters first and usually alone. Why wouldn't you prepare them well for that?

And, you can use a WML properly on your house guns and never sweep anybody, but that's for another time.

That's just it. If they would train us instead of just give them out an hope for the best then I would like to think it would be a non-issue. But you know how crap just kinda happens and when the grab-assing starts is when it all goes to pot. That's why I seek out the training for myself. No chicks on SWAT. But the SWAT guys are not a 'full-time' unit...they're det's, narc guys, and patrol etc. They are getting the WML training. As far as everyone else, or even the squared away folks...with the current staf/admin, it just aint gonna happen.

As far a liability is concerned...we have a new person that was failed by 2 FTO's...but she's still there. Now you can see the mountain of BS that we are dealing with. If it aint about CALEA it gets shelved. That's the sad truth.

Wayne Dobbs
06-04-2012, 03:15 PM
That's just it. If they would train us instead of just give them out an hope for the best then I would like to think it would be a non-issue. But you know how crap just kinda happens and when the grab-assing starts is when it all goes to pot. That's why I seek out the training for myself. No chicks on SWAT. But the SWAT guys are not a 'full-time' unit...they're det's, narc guys, and patrol etc. They are getting the WML training. As far as everyone else, or even the squared away folks...with the current staf/admin, it just aint gonna happen.

As far a liability is concerned...we have a new person that was failed by 2 FTO's...but she's still there. Now you can see the mountain of BS that we are dealing with. If it aint about CALEA it gets shelved. That's the sad truth.

Sounds like we can tell each other the same stories about our respective PDs! I'm glad to be retired from mine. Miss the job badly, don't miss the BS a bit!

KeeFus
06-04-2012, 03:24 PM
Sounds like we can tell each other the same stories about our respective PDs! I'm glad to be retired from mine. Miss the job badly, don't miss the BS a bit!

Last week I bought back my military time. 9 years and I'm out.

I work on one of the best shifts I have ever worked on. I can honestly say that I trust each person and would trust them with a WML. Others...not so much. Our policy, which I had a hand in, states that "Members of the tactical team may use weapon mounted lights with holsters during tactical operations only after completing training for this purpose". The admin didnt even want that! Sometimes its like pulling teeth but, after watching them for almost 20 years do what they do, I've learned to take baby steps when it comes to trying to change things when you are dealing with folks who mainly write policy. We will have them eventually, but it may take a regime change.

ETA: Thats a direct quote form our policy. I had it written that anyone who had completed the proper training could use WML. You can see how it got changed. I'm not totally against WML's. Im against giving them to re-re's that can't get out of their own way. If they would train everyone then I would be fine, especially with the shift that i'm on. I think that the liability associated with it is what scares me the most. Our low light instructor told us about folks who were grab-assing with WML's and the outcomes. I just dont want it to happen when I'm around. I freely admit that I have not had 'formal' training on WML's. The low light class I took a few weeks ago was geared toward hand held flashlights however there were 3 or 4 with them.

cclaxton
06-05-2012, 08:21 AM
I spent last night trying all these techniques out and here is my assessment. First, someone here said that one of the important tactics when using a flashlight is the ability to turn it ON and OFF easily when needed. Since BG's shoot at the flashlight, that makes sense to me. And, I see why the FBI chose that method even if not as good from a targeting perspective.

Weapons Mounted Lights: They would be great for paper targets if IDPA allowed them, but they don't. And, they are more cumbersome to use and difficult to get holsters, and difficult to carry, especially IWB. And, it allows BGs to shoot right at the flashlight/handgun so higher risk. No to WML.

Chapman and Rogers suffer from the same problem. Too difficult to manage the flashlight ON/OFF and still get a good grip and not interfere with Strong Hand operation of the weapon. Plus, BG's will shoot at the light. Better to shoot SHO.

Harries and REverse Harries just put more strain on my arms to maintain the hold/stance. Both require more movement of the weak arm and if you need to move back and forth, takes time. I didn't like either of these, and they don't seem to help SHO shooting.

Neck Index and Temple Index are great for seeing my sights and the target and are more comfortable to hold and easy to operate the ON/OFF button when needed. They are about equal but I like the temple index a bit more because the light beam gets a better angle. Only bad thing is that BG;s shoot the light, which is near my head. But I can turn ON/OFF easily and move more easily. I like this the best.

FBI has the advantage of moving the BG's shots towards the light away from me. However, it doesn't work well in close quarters, and is more difficult to get consistent targeting and sight illumnination.

My decision is to practice both Temple Index and FBI techniques until I can smoothly transition between both. That way if shots were fired, I will be ready to use FBI, but default to the Temple Index.

Also, just had another thought: Have a second flashlight with a wide angle reflector that will allow me to set that flashlight down and illuminate a room and carry the tactical flashlight with me for targeting.

That is my own personal assessment and not suggesting to anyone this is the best answer. I am not an expert nor do I claim to be one. Individual results may vary. Use of these techniques is at your own risk, blah blah blah. No offense intended and none taken, etc.

CC

GJM
06-05-2012, 11:05 AM
And, so it seems we have come full circle on flashlight techniques, and can conclude the following:

1) Given the compromises with using a light to shoot, unless you have NV gear, and the bad guy does not, we would rather shoot in the daylight.

2) Different flashlight techniques have their own strengths and weaknesses, and there is no perfect method. Size of your hands, size of your flashlight, level of recoil of your handgun, your requirement for light, and your own familiarity will likely drive which method you use.

3) Just like regular folks, military and law enforcement personnel have different levels of commitment to training, and different levels of shooting expertise.

4) Folks should do a realistic analysis of their own needs and practice a method that is likely to be their default solution. In other words, if you never carry a WML except at a course, it probably doesn't make sense to only practice with a WML.

For example, I have done the following analysis. My biggest threat is from a bear -- I carry a small two lithium cell Streamlight with a rubber band around it in a front pants pocket, and I typically shoot a .44 or 10mm. Since my small light is not suitable as a weapon, I won't be winning ANY hand to hand fight with a bear, my .44 is not compatible with a WML, and I need to be able to control recoil while holding the light, the Rogers is my first choice, with the Harries or a WML as my back-up methods. Since a long gun is my real first choice, my shotguns, 45-70 and .375 are set up with a mount to to attach a Surefire light. I make sure my lights have an easy constant on feature, so if the threat has four legs, I can turn the light on and leave it on.

Byron
06-05-2012, 01:42 PM
Southnarc's AMIS class is one hell of a way to see how your preferred light technique stacks up. Never once have I seen so many people with a bajillion hours under so many awesome guru's begin to question why they ever did what they did. Byron can explain it far better than I can so I won't butcher it here.
I feel like I'm well out of my lane regarding this topic as a whole, but I'm happy to relay my experience in AMIS.

Craig (Southnarc) is careful to note upfront that AMIS is not a dedicated low-light course. In the context of the course (i.e. a single individual, moving through a structure) he shows his preferred method for using light, which is heavily reliant on brief flashes (preferably strobes), level changes, and misleading movement.

This can be executed in a number of ways, but one example that immediately comes to mind is gaining visual information past a threshold. Before entering a new room, the student is shown a method of crouching low, but then holding the flashlight high. Give a brief flash, then quickly disappear back behind the threshold. It's critical that the student practices taking "snapshots" of this visual information. After all, if you flash the room, then duck back without actually taking in that visual information, you're only worse off than before.

Obviously such a technique requires a "hands apart" hold. The described technique in particular also relies on other factors that are hard to put in writing. Timing is a big issue, as are ambient lighting conditions. If you are backlit, for example, this technique doesn't have the same applicability. There are other nuances as well, such as how to move the light to better misdirect observers.

A lot of people give a skeptical eye until Craig does a live demonstration. Turning out the lights, he moves around in one or two rooms, and at certain pauses, the students try to identify where he's standing. Far more often than not, the guesses are wrong. As orionz06 notes, a lot of people really start paying close attention after the demo.

Again, what he teaches in AMIS is specific to AMIS. The principles he espouses -- positional dominance, misdirection, etc -- have a wider application, but some of the specific techniques he shows wouldn't have the same utility for a late-night vehicle stop, for example.

But for a lone individual (whether uniform or private citizen), the light techniques can allow for very deceptive movement in a structure. I don't have any real-world experience to give on the matter, but in FoF scenarios, I've moved right past people, within very close distances, without them realizing my real position and/or direction of travel. You really know you've pulled this off when a role-player starts firing in the dark, nowhere near you.

From my low-light experience in AMIS, I've come to appreciate a WML in conjunction with a hand-held. Moving, searching, and other non-shooting functions are performed with the hand-held. If a target is identified, I roll the hand-held down, acquire a two-handed grip, and engage with the WML.

My writing really doesn't do it justice. Without trying to sound like a shill, I would encourage people to see what Craig has to offer, with the reminder that it isn't a "low-light course" as much as it has a low-light component.

orionz06
06-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Without trying to sound like a shill, I would encourage people to see what Craig has to offer, with the reminder that it isn't a "low-light course" as much as it has a low-light component.

That is where I was really stuck.

Perhaps to take another stab at it...

Knowing how to shoot with the light in one hand and the gun in the other is vital, I believe. The light can move, the gun not so much. I know one thing for certain, having the light near my body is not something I wish to do on purpose.

ETA: I called Byron out because he was called the AMIS Ninja more than once in the past and to my knowledge has taken it a few times.

ToddG
06-05-2012, 04:04 PM
1) Given the compromises with using a light to shoot, unless you have NV gear, and the bad guy does not, we would rather shoot in the daylight.

That is worth repeating.

Folks who put a lot of time and effort into low light work (particularly force on force low light work) have some incredible skills. Without that time and effort, most people struggle tremendously to run their light. In many instances, they get so caught up in the flashlight technique that they lose their ability to shoot not to mention think. As such, for quite a few people, just turning the light on and leaving it on can be a better option.

While everyone immediately wants to point out that the light becomes a bullet magnet, you're no worse off than if the lights were on. And by keeping your light on, especially in smaller indoor areas, you essentially create a level playing field. Now it is, to borrow GJM's comment, "in the daylight" where most shooters feel their skill is at its maximum.

I'm not saying it's the best approach, and it's not the approach I use under most circumstances. But it has a lot more merit than people realize.

David Armstrong
06-05-2012, 05:55 PM
That is worth repeating.

Folks who put a lot of time and effort into low light work (particularly force on force low light work) have some incredible skills. Without that time and effort, most people struggle tremendously to run their light. In many instances, they get so caught up in the flashlight technique that they lose their ability to shoot not to mention think. As such, for quite a few people, just turning the light on and leaving it on can be a better option.

While everyone immediately wants to point out that the light becomes a bullet magnet, you're no worse off than if the lights were on. And by keeping your light on, especially in smaller indoor areas, you essentially create a level playing field. Now it is, to borrow GJM's comment, "in the daylight" where most shooters feel their skill is at its maximum.

I'm not saying it's the best approach, and it's not the approach I use under most circumstances. But it has a lot more merit than people realize.
It is an approach I've often advocated, especially with the advent of hte super lights. Lots of night vision can be lost without a person realizing it, so it is possible to be stumbling around with impaired vision. Plus with the light on you no longer have to worry about manipulating the light quite so much.

JHC
06-05-2012, 06:45 PM
Inside my home, my plan has always been to light it up. It's out and about that tightens the options up.

Coyotesfan97
06-05-2012, 07:22 PM
That is worth repeating.

Folks who put a lot of time and effort into low light work (particularly force on force low light work) have some incredible skills. Without that time and effort, most people struggle tremendously to run their light. In many instances, they get so caught up in the flashlight technique that they lose their ability to shoot not to mention think. As such, for quite a few people, just turning the light on and leaving it on can be a better option.

While everyone immediately wants to point out that the light becomes a bullet magnet, you're no worse off than if the lights were on. And by keeping your light on, especially in smaller indoor areas, you essentially create a level playing field. Now it is, to borrow GJM's comment, "in the daylight" where most shooters feel their skill is at its maximum.

I'm not saying it's the best approach, and it's not the approach I use under most circumstances. But it has a lot more merit than people realize.

This is why I like turning lights on as I come to them. The best is when you hit a central switch that turns on a lot of lights.

The people hiding know you are there. The darkness gives them an added advantage. Turning on lights takes that away. Hiding gives them the advantage. My dog levels that field. With no dog good tactics and a slow search are a must.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Noleshooter
06-05-2012, 09:11 PM
I have a few questions about some of the comments.


While everyone immediately wants to point out that the light becomes a bullet magnet, you're no worse off than if the lights were on. And by keeping your light on, especially in smaller indoor areas, you essentially create a level playing field.

Is it really a level playing field? If you don't have them illuminated they can see you and you can't see them. Wouldn't turning all the lights on be more of a true level playing field?



JHC
Inside my home, my plan has always been to light it up. It's out and about that tightens the options up.


BUT... I walk in my house in the dark a lot. I know where the doors, stairs and tables are and I've put thought into where the choke points are. It's my environment and they are presumably unfamiliar with it.


So I've just made two opposing points, and I guess that's what makes this so difficult.

TCinVA
06-05-2012, 09:15 PM
Interaction with an unknown threat in the dark will never be something you can reduce to an If > Then prescription.

There are times when it may be most sensible to use the ninja rated strobing/movemnt techniques that are used when you hunt very bad men in the dark. There are times when it may be most sensible to just hit the light switch. There are times when it may be most sensible to just not go in there and wait for the cavalry.

JHC
06-05-2012, 09:27 PM
BUT... I walk in my house in the dark a lot. I know where the doors, stairs and tables are and I've put thought into where the choke points are. It's my environment and they are presumably unfamiliar with it.


So I've just made two opposing points, and I guess that's what makes this so difficult.

Me too (walk in house in the dark). But if I had reason to think I had intruders, not so much.

Lomshek
06-06-2012, 12:29 AM
GJM makes some great points especially WRT the idea of a “best” method (like so many other things) there is no “best”; there is only what works better for you with your equipment and training.

Byron’s description of the how and why Southnarc teaches the methods he does is the best logic I’ve heard for a hands-apart method. It also reminds me again I need to make some Southnarc training a priority.

Not to pick on cclaxton but I’ll use his post to point this out.




Lots of folks say this
Weapons Mounted Lights: ... And, it allows BGs to shoot right at the flashlight/handgun so higher risk. No to WML.

And directly contradict it with this
Neck Index and Temple Index are great for seeing my sights and the target and are more comfortable to hold and easy to operate the ON/OFF button when needed. Only bad thing is that BG’s shoot the light, which is near my head. But I can turn ON/OFF easily and move more easily. I like this the best.



A WML allows the fastest most accurate hits but should not be used because a bad guy might shoot at the light.

A light held against my head is best because it can be turned on and off easily. (If you have a pressure switch for your WML you can turn it on and off pretty easily too)

Wouldn’t faster more accurate fire be a better way of winning the gunfight than trying to make the BG play hit-the-7-foot-tall-NBA-player? Separate from the idea of using misdirection during a search as Byron pointed out.

My travels so far have led me to the decision that if I have the option (as a civilian in HD or CCW) a WML is my first choice and for just about everything the Graham method is next in line. As discussed previously everyone should try different methods and see what works why.

JAD
06-06-2012, 04:48 AM
I think it's a great example of how difficult and worthy of effort some of the 'peripheral' areas of our pursuit can be. Marksmanship, Cooper said, is the easy part. Movement, illumination, the use of cover -- 'tactics' -- is much more squishy, much more difficult to measure, much more difficult to get trained in, and really important.

Todd's point illustrates this well. Leaving the light on is good advice for some. With the amount of work that people on this forum put into skill development, it shouldn't be something any of us would do.

ToddG
06-06-2012, 08:15 AM
Is it really a level playing field? If you don't have them illuminated they can see you and you can't see them. Wouldn't turning all the lights on be more of a true level playing field?

If it's bright outside and someone is hiding behind a bush, he has an advantage but not one created by illumination. If you've got your flashlight on but you're not illuminating where the guy is, that's no different. And that assumes a reasonably large area and/or fairly weak light given that most of the 100+ lumen lights do a decent job of providing at least shape/silhouette recognition in a typical room these days.

Also, I should probably clarify what I meant by "just leave the light on." I'm not talking about walking through a dark office building with a flashlight in your hand. Searching can be done with flashes and strobes. Ken Good (one of the original Surefire Institute instructors) is the first guy I saw teaching that technique and I immediately adopted it because it's easy and straightforward with just a little practice. Craig Douglas (Southnarc) has further refined it and it's one of the things he covers in his AMIS class.

By "leave the light on," I meant once the decision to shoot has been made, until the decision to stop shooting has been made. Juggling the light switch, light position, gun, and trigger simultaneously is just far more than most people can handle. A lot of techniques work great when you're fighting against static targets that aren't threatening you in any way, but every time you turn the light off you completely lose the threat's position and you have to start from scratch with searching.


Todd's point illustrates this well. Leaving the light on is good advice for some. With the amount of work that people on this forum put into skill development, it shouldn't be something any of us would do.

I still think that's too absolute. There are absolutely times when keeping the light on from the start of contact until the end is going to be the safest, most effective, most direct way of dealing with danger.

JAD
06-06-2012, 12:11 PM
I still think that's too absolute. There are absolutely times when keeping the light on from the start of contact until the end is going to be the safest, most effective, most direct way of dealing with danger.
I see your point and agree. I need to take AMIS for many reasons, but one of them is to understand the identify-light off-move-light on-shoot thing (if I even did that right). It sounds contrary to teaching I've had against 'giving ground,' but I bet there's a nuance.

phil_in_cs
06-06-2012, 01:14 PM
I see your point and agree. I need to take AMIS for many reasons, but one of them is to understand the identify-light off-move-light on-shoot thing (if I even did that right). It sounds contrary to teaching I've had against 'giving ground,' but I bet there's a nuance.

I'm not sure what's meant by 'giving ground' in an indoors context. When the fights are across a hallway or within a bedroom or kitchen, you are moving from one location at point blank distance to another at point blank distance. You are choosing a location for tactical reasons.

JAD
06-06-2012, 02:03 PM
This can be executed in a number of ways, but one example that immediately comes to mind is gaining visual information past a threshold. Before entering a new room, the student is shown a method of crouching low, but then holding the flashlight high. Give a brief flash, then quickly disappear back behind the threshold. It's critical that the student practices taking "snapshots" of this visual information. After all, if you flash the room, then duck back without actually taking in that visual information, you're only worse off than before.

To be really clear, because the internet can be so full of snark that it's hard to ask a legitimate question sometimes:
- I'm talking about something Byron, who is not SouthNarc, said about SN's class.
- I am of the 100% full faith and conviction that AMIS is something I need to do
- I am of the 100% full faith and conviction that there's a good reason for what I'm asking about /if/ I'm perceiving it correctly.

I was taught, most particularly by Clint Smith, that once you flip that light on as you enter the room you engage or don't. Either way, you're going to get off the light and move if at all possible, once that engagement is concluded; but you're not going to lose visual command of the area until you have dealt with whatever you saw. The assumption being, I guess, that what you saw is likely to have changed by the time you come back out from cover.

I doubt that what SN teaches truly conflicts with that, and I bet that after AMIS I'll understand a lot better. To Todd's point, I was taught to leave the light on until that engagement is over and I have a new, better place to hide.

cclaxton
06-06-2012, 02:13 PM
I just shot a IDPA COF inside a darkened indoor range. The scenario is this: You are having dinner in a candlelit restaurant and are seated at your table with your partner across from you when six mobsters draw guns. Your table ranges between 21-30 feet away from the targets and are spread across a 40 foot horizontal area interspersed with nonthreats in darkened areas of the room. They range in height between 4-6 feet. You must make all shots while seated.

There were about 3 different flashlights available, including my Surefire Z2X 200 Lumen CombatLight. After the house lights were turned off and it was only candlelight, No one's flashlight lit up the entire area to allow sufficient targeting. My flashlight, which has a relatively narrow beam with "peripheral illumination" would barely cover two targets. It was definitely necessary to put the main part of the beam on the target to see it and to shoot it. If I had a diffferent type of wide-angle flashlight I still don't think the illumination would have been sufficient. Sitting a flashlight on the table and attempting to identify and hit the targets would have been difficult and inaccurate.

On the other hand, when I turn the Z2X on in my large bedroom and set it down, it is sufficient to identify and acquire the target in a 14x14 room. So, I learned a valuable lesson....it depends on the room, the location of the targets and the situation.
mal
Seems to me I need to train using various scenaios and then knowing when to set the light down and when to hold on to it and when to hold it away from the body. I could get used to the idea of a WML, but I don't normally carry that kind of weapon...I carry a Z2X flashlight and a Kimber Ultra CDP II in 9mm...not a gun that will even handle a WML. I would rather be trained on something I will always have available to me.

Just my opinion, others may vary, I am not an expert, use at your own risk, don't take offense, no offense taken, etc.
CC

Byron
06-06-2012, 02:59 PM
To be really clear, because the internet can be so full of snark that it's hard to ask a legitimate question sometimes...
Ha, I hear you -- sometimes people mistake genuine questions as bait in a trap.


I was taught, most particularly by Clint Smith, that once you flip that light on as you enter the room you engage or don't. Either way, you're going to get off the light and move if at all possible, once that engagement is concluded; but you're not going to lose visual command of the area until you have dealt with whatever you saw. The assumption being, I guess, that what you saw is likely to have changed by the time you come back out from cover.

I doubt that what SN teaches truly conflicts with that, and I bet that after AMIS I'll understand a lot better. To Todd's point, I was taught to leave the light on until that engagement is over and I have a new, better place to hide.
The described technique was shown as an option, but was never espoused as the only way to cross a threshold. It is meant for stealthily moving through a structure, not for actual engagement in a firefight. That is to say, if a shooting problem arises, the light goes on and stays on until the problem is solved (hence my appreciation of a WML in addition to the hand-held).

Equally free of snark, my question would be: when are you "flip[ping] that light on as you enter the room"?

On one extreme end of the spectrum, you could position yourself outside the threshold with your light switched to constant-on, and slowly pie the space as if you were doing a daylight visual scan. The benefits of this approach might be less exposure to ambush, increased mobility, and just general caution. The drawbacks would include fully identifying your position, as well as your range of visibility.

From the perspective of a "bad guy" role-player, when people lay heavy on the light, it's not only easy to see where they are, it's easy to see what they're observing. I know that they can only see what it's their beam of light, and since the beam is constant, I can easily track what they see.

On the other extreme end of the spectrum, you could penetrate the room, turning your light on once you are inside. The benefits of this approach might be surprise, aggression, violence of action, etc. The drawbacks would include the potential to run right into a threat (figuratively and literally), compromising your mobility, smacking into a wall, or tripping over a table.

Looking at it again from the role-player's perspective, this can really be a surprising move. If you weren't actively watching the threshold for the incoming good guy, he could be on top of you as soon as you realize he's there.

The peek-and-move maneuver sort of hedges your bet. If there is someone in the room who is focused on the threshold, you can spot him and get back out of his line of fire before he even starts pulling the trigger. Again, this takes practice and timing to pull off, but is very repeatable once those reps are in. It also allows you to see where in the room you're going to move once you cross that threshold.

Once enough visual information is gathered from outside the threshold, the actual entry is very aggressive. Again, from the perspective of the role-player, this entire sequence really throws a wrench in your OODA loop. You're sitting there thinking, "I know he has to come through this door. I know he has to come through this door." Suddenly you see a flash in the corner of the doorway, your brain says, "HERE WE GO!" and you pop off some shots. But the light has mysteriously disappeared and the threshold is empty. You start wondering whether he already made it into your room or whether he's still outside of it. Did you hit him? Is he still there? Suddenly, something is aggressively moving through your room.

The AMIS curriculum places heavy stress on pacing up and pacing down, often changing on a dime. This applies both to physical movement (moving at a snail's pace one second, running the next, and then back to anywhere on the spectrum) as well as light use (sometimes using brief strobes, sometimes using constant-on). There's definitely no always/never solution. As such, trying to verbalize some of this comes across as wishy-washy... "sometimes do this... sometimes do that..." but there really is a huge decision-making component to the coursework.

Sorry... that was longer than I expected and I'm not sure I even addressed your question.

JHC
06-06-2012, 03:18 PM
Byron - don't know if you addressed his question but I found that a VERY helpful explanation!

Coyotesfan97
06-06-2012, 04:15 PM
From the perspective of a "bad guy" role-player, when people lay heavy on the light, it's not only easy to see where they are, it's easy to see what they're observing. I know that they can only see what it's their beam of light, and since the beam is constant, I can easily track what they see.

As an actor in FoF I agree. I have actually stayed just outside the beam of a flashlight moving back deeper into cover as the role player attempts to clear objects in a room and have been missed. In a small room I was hiding behind circular cover and moved around it both ways. Then moved out and engaged the role player.

Byron
06-06-2012, 04:25 PM
Thanks, JHC -- I appreciate that

I've done a similar thing, Coyotesfan. In the most extreme example I can think of, I was hiding behind a file cabinet and just made sure to keep myself within the shadow that it cast. I couldn't even see the guy who was looking for me, but he was using constant light. As the shadow shifted, I just moved with it, ensuring that I was always "behind" the cabinet from his perspective.

JAD
06-06-2012, 04:39 PM
Sorry... that was longer than I expected and I'm not sure I even addressed your question.
-- Yup, nailed it - and upsold AMIS while you were at it.

SouthNarc
06-06-2012, 09:07 PM
I watched Byron engage 4 hostiles in a pitch black room and destroy all of them without a single round touching him on his second time through AMIS.

HCL3
06-07-2012, 03:20 AM
The AMIS curriculum places heavy stress on pacing up and pacing down, often changing on a dime. This applies both to physical movement (moving at a snail's pace one second, running the next, and then back to anywhere on the spectrum) as well as light use (sometimes using brief strobes, sometimes using constant-on). There's definitely no always/never solution. As such, trying to verbalize some of this comes across as wishy-washy... "sometimes do this... sometimes do that..." but there really is a huge decision-making component to the coursework.

+1

I took AMIS for the first time this April in Memphis. I don't think anything I could write on this forum could do justice toward explaining the complexity of the AMIS coursework. Like ECQC, it's one of those things you have to see and do in person to even begin to get a grasp on the material. Learning to pick up on where you are exposed while moving trough a structure and more importantly when and how to minimize exposure through trying to conform your body to the structure or changing pace is way more challenging than it sounds. Southnarc emphasizes that there is no safe way to move through a structure solo (vs. with a team) and that you shouldn't do it unless you have to. AMIS, like ECQC, was an eye opening experience that left me with a lot to reflect on, a lot to practice, and a lot to learn. I highly recommend it and plan on taking it again sometime next year.

I was lucky enough to make it through the final test at AMIS without getting shot. I'm not sure how many in our class had clean runs but it was few enough that it convinced me that if I had to do it for real I would want to be wearing some soft armor and have a handgun with as many bullets as I can fit in it (maybe a G17 with one of those 33 round mags!). I have started keeping a Klarus XT11 strobing handheld with a lanyard on my nightstand next to my EDC pistol since I finished AMIS.

As far as the original topic of this thread, I ran both a WML and a handheld light during the nighttime portion of AMIS and found that a strobing handheld light was far more useful for hunting through the structure than the WML. The WML was rarely used. I used the Southnarc recommended modified FBI technique using short bursts of light while keeping the light constantly moving. SN empisized that lights draw bullets and had a couple of shot out handheld and WMLs on hand from previous AMIS classes to make his point.

- Hugh

Dropkick
02-10-2014, 07:42 PM
Bump.

cdunn
02-10-2014, 08:32 PM
I'm just an electrician , that has never been in a day or night shootout, but after attending a low light practice session with Todd and trying a bunch of different techniques , in different scenarios I decided that I like fbi, neck and then Rogers.With FBI and neck I felt like I had better vision.I also figured if I were in a shootout at night ,when in doubt I'd shoot at bad guys light it makes a good target most likely right in front of the bad guy.

Dagga Boy
02-11-2014, 12:17 AM
This is why I like turning lights on as I come to them. The best is when you hit a central switch that turns on a lot of lights.

The people hiding know you are there. The darkness gives them an added advantage. Turning on lights takes that away. Hiding gives them the advantage. My dog levels that field. With no dog good tactics and a slow search are a must.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That was my favorite low light tactic............make it light. I also used a lot of deception with light combined with driving with light. The key was having multiple lights.

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 10:08 AM
I'm just an electrician , that has never been in a day or night shootout, but after attending a low light practice session with Todd and trying a bunch of different techniques , in different scenarios I decided that I like fbi, neck and then Rogers.With FBI and neck I felt like I had better vision.I also figured if I were in a shootout at night ,when in doubt I'd shoot at bad guys light it makes a good target most likely right in front of the bad guy.
I like FBI/Nick-Temple hold as well, but when it comes to speed, two handed cigar/syringe style is definitely faster. I think we should train with both techniques and use them appropriately depending on the situation.
Cody

joshs
02-11-2014, 10:42 AM
I like FBI/Nick-Temple hold as well, but when it comes to speed, two handed cigar/syringe style is definitely faster. I think we should train with both techniques and use them appropriately depending on the situation.
Cody

Faster how? It's always been much slower to the first shot when transitioning from searching to shooting for me.

Dagga Boy
02-11-2014, 01:07 PM
Just a question for those using techniques with the light held between the fingers and using the palm to activate (Rogers, cigar, syringe, whatever...). How are you holding the light when you go to neck index or off line (Modified FBI)?

Mr_White
02-11-2014, 02:03 PM
For a while now, I've used the FBI, neck index, and harries for my low light needs (ha, not very much need here.)

Those three address the demand for a body-detached searching position, a right and left side of cover position, and pure engagement. Because those three flow so nicely into each other and require no regripping, that is my main menu of low light technique.

I've always liked the idea of the Rogers technique, but it became the odd man out for me, since it was the only one to require a grip change. My hands also don't stay together well when I shoot the gun. I know some others have a lot of success with the Rogers technique, so I think there is something I am missing or not doing right.

justintime
02-11-2014, 04:14 PM
I am not consistent with the rogers technique. It requires a lot of effort to get the flashlight to work plus use the grip correctly and I do not feel it helps that much in recoil as it is not a super strong grip for me. I much prefer the neck index and harries.

TheTrevor
02-11-2014, 04:40 PM
Every time I try the Rogers technique, I find myself thinking "boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were some way to just mount a flashlight directly on the gun so I could use my normal grip?"

justintime
02-11-2014, 04:47 PM
thats why I like harries with a lanyard and a wml lol.

jetfire
02-11-2014, 05:42 PM
If my carry gun had a rail, I'd use a WML no questions asked.

Chuck Haggard
02-11-2014, 06:50 PM
After lots, and I mean LOTS, of runs through various FoF drills, scenarios, working nights, buildings searches, etc., I use modified FBI for searching, and neck index or Harries for shooting exclusively. I haven't found a use for any of the other techniques.

Of course this is barring use of a WML, which would become the go-to for shooting.

TheTrevor
02-11-2014, 07:05 PM
Chuck, one of the issues I've seen raised with Harries is that it can be fatiguing and difficult to sustain over significant periods of time. Any thoughts on how to address that?

Casual Friday
02-11-2014, 07:41 PM
Chuck, one of the issues I've seen raised with Harries is that it can be fatiguing and difficult to sustain over significant periods of time. Any thoughts on how to address that?

Hit the gym Buttercup.






(Sorry, couldn't resist):)

TheTrevor
02-11-2014, 08:08 PM
Hit the gym Buttercup.

And to think that I typed, then edited out, something to the effect of "how to address that, other than 'get stronger'?"

Where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one? {sigh}

LSP972
02-11-2014, 08:24 PM
It is an issue, no doubt about it. Harries is quite fatiguing over an extended period. Other than the "better conditioning" answer, I don't know what to tell you; except that even when one is in good shape, Harries will still wear you down if you don't cheat and relax a bit of that isometric tension.

If you want a real work-out, try holding Harries and searching for a while with a three cell MagLite or SL-20…;)

.

TheTrevor
02-11-2014, 08:45 PM
If you want a real work-out, try holding Harries and searching for a while with a three cell MagLite or SL-20…;)

I like the theory that neck-index emerged as a preferred technique because it (a) enabled you to rest your 3D Maglite on your shoulder and (b) overhand swing the butt end of said Maglite directly forward onto a deserving recipient's dome...

Chuck Haggard
02-11-2014, 08:48 PM
I treat it like a punch, a guy who really knows how to throw one doesn't have the fist clenched really hard until just before impact.

I use Harries as an on demand technique, situationally to the scenario, angle, cover, and/or distance from the target, as a shooting position or when I am going guns up on a bad guy and really close to shooting. I do not search from there. Using Harries the way I do leads to it being a short time period technique and fatigue doesn't become and issue.


I also work out ;-p

Chuck Haggard
02-11-2014, 08:50 PM
I like the theory that neck-index emerged as a preferred technique because it (a) enabled you to rest your 3D Maglite on your shoulder and (b) overhand swing the butt end of said Maglite directly forward onto a deserving recipient's dome...

It was the club technique back when I started using it, but Ken Good likely popularized "neck index" more than anyone else I know or have heard of, and he used lights like 6Ps the whole time.

LSP972
02-11-2014, 09:44 PM
Let me guess, Chuck…

One of your brass hats saw some dipstick using his WML like a regular flashlight (while still mounted on the pistol), and that's why you guys are prohibited from using them?

.

justintime
02-11-2014, 10:01 PM
And to think that I typed, then edited out, something to the effect of "how to address that, other than 'get stronger'?"

Where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one? {sigh}

I could see harries getting tiresome if you were using it for very elongated searching. I like it for quick applications and it feels the best to shoot from for me. Most searching I prefer neck index or FBI.

Chuck Haggard
02-11-2014, 10:01 PM
Let me guess, Chuck…

One of your brass hats saw some dipstick using his WML like a regular flashlight (while still mounted on the pistol), and that's why you guys are prohibited from using them?

.


Nope. Just SWAT and K9, and patrol never had pistol lights to begin with, because someone somewhere though that a WML might get misused some day.........


Funny thing is I had a light on my pistol ever since Sure Fire came out with the old school originals for the 5906 back in the day. Now that I am no longer in SWAT and "just" a patrol guy I am unqualified to carry a light on my pistol, even though I am an adjunct instructor for a company that is famous for low light training, and I wrote our training and GOs on the subject, and trained my tac team on how to use WMLs........

Chuck Haggard
02-11-2014, 10:02 PM
I could see harries getting tiresome if you were using it for very elongated searching. I like it for quick applications and it feels the best to shoot from for me. Most searching I prefer neck index or FBI.

Seriously, Mod FBI is for searching, neck index is for shooting. Searching from neck index draws fire right to your face.

justintime
02-11-2014, 10:10 PM
In your experience has that been true when using it momentary while moving as well? I much prefer the. FBI for searching as it seems easier to move it around. I always thought neck index was kinda sketchy for shooting since it's so easy to wash out your sights. It's also funny that most people miss low left lol. I thought all the techniques attract bullets so no matter the technique you needed to keep moving/only use the light momentarily. The main reason I thought you didn't want to search wth harries was to not flag people potentially - FBI for searching and wml for shooting seems the ticket to me when we play fof with airsoft - with neck index filling small voids around obstacles/ certain barriers. Is this way off base?

Chuck Haggard
02-11-2014, 10:20 PM
In your experience has that been true when using it momentary while moving as well? I much prefer the. FBI for searching as it seems easier to move it around


Very much so. Mod FBI allows one to use the light much more chaotically and with more flexibility.

Dagga Boy
02-11-2014, 10:28 PM
I treat it like a punch, a guy who really knows how to throw one doesn't have the fist clenched really hard until just before impact.

I use Harries as an on demand technique, situationally to the scenario, angle, cover, and/or distance from the target, as a shooting position or when I am going guns up on a bad guy and really close to shooting. I do not search from there. Using Harries the way I do leads to it being a short time period technique and fatigue doesn't become and issue.


I also work out ;-p

THIS^. Okay, a huge problem is that most people don't teach Harries correctly. I trained with Mike Harries for a lot of years. When you are shooting or very much ready to shoot, you are exerting isometric tension to control the light and pistol. Otherwise you are relaxed. I can, and have, spent hours searching in Harries and it works exceptionally well. It is after all a search and evaluation technique that is used to essentially "hunt" with a light and a pistol. A WML is better geared towards shooting with a light vs. searching with a light. Guess which one you do more of? If you see someone shooting from Harries and you can see the back of their shooting hand behind the knuckles, they are doing something, but it is NOT Harries. Like Chuck, I run highly relaxed and simply "lock up" if the pistol comes on to a target. I also have a very easy and rapid system to seamlessly flow the light from Modified FBI, Neck Index, Harries, and Reverse Harries to a force tool with no issue and without any kind of manipulation on the light..........and I can use any kind of light from a speciality made Surefire to a Maglite from Home Depot to a simple emergency light from 7/11.

I spent a good portion of my career using a rechargeable Maglite, held like a club for a primary light. The "neck index" was no more than how we approached many people and vehicles on traffic stops-back of the light on the shoulder with the head index to where you were looking. You took it off the shoulder for angling or putting the light where you didn't want your head. The smaller lights simply made this easier.

I still get back to my question. We have all these folks using a syringe technique.....can a few chime in to how you are using the light when not linked to the shooting hand?

justintime
02-11-2014, 10:34 PM
Nyeti - I was taught to apply pressure in harries by squeezing the back of your hands together. I also was told to tuck the elbows in which gives even more pressure. Is that what your talking about or is there another way?

Dagga Boy
02-11-2014, 10:56 PM
Yep. You use the support side elbow moving inboard to generate the "torque". Most folks are simply placing the shooting hand on top of the wrist of the support wrist, or if they have the backs of their hands together, they are only applying side to side pressure and not using the support elbow to "lock" them. Done correctly, you cannot hold the shooting position long. The key is how long does it take for an actual engagement? Not long.

One of the other benefits is that you can retract Harries into retention. In the bar shooting I was in I pulled off one non-compliant from a full extended Harries to retracted the platform to turn and shoot a second suspect who went from compliant to drawing a pistol. When I turned, due to range I collapsed the Harries into retention, but the elbow was still controlling the hand tension.

Casual Friday
02-12-2014, 07:22 AM
And to think that I typed, then edited out, something to the effect of "how to address that, other than 'get stronger'?"

Where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one? {sigh}

I was just bustin' your chops, no offense intended.

Back to topic, the two threads about flashlight techniques have been really informative. I thought I knew the more bestest betterest way to implement the Harries but alas I did not.

TheTrevor
02-12-2014, 11:49 AM
Yep. You use the support side elbow moving inboard to generate the "torque". Most folks are simply placing the shooting hand on top of the wrist of the support wrist, or if they have the backs of their hands together, they are only applying side to side pressure and not using the support elbow to "lock" them. Done correctly, you cannot hold the shooting position long. The key is how long does it take for an actual engagement? Not long.

Harries "clicked" for me after I read that and gave it another try, and now I see exactly how it's meant to work. Great explanation! Thank you for that, DB.

LSP552
02-12-2014, 09:33 PM
Much of this discussion like most things shooting, are situational and mission driven. A patrol officer's light usage techniques will be driven by different requirements than folks not working in that environment. There is a reason you are hearing the law enforcement preference towards Harries, modified FBI, or neck index. It just transitions better from searching to shooting than the Rogers, cigar, syringe, etc. It also allows seamless baton strikes when using a real light.

One other comment. There are few things more dangerous than looking for bad guys in dark places. Unless you are being paid to do so, or there is an immediate need to link up with a family member, I'd recommend leaving. Its much safer to hunt bad guys from a team environment with WMLs on everything.

Ken

TheTrevor
02-12-2014, 10:03 PM
Fair points, Ken, 100% agree.

In my case, I like to have as many tools in the toolbox as possible. I'm thankful that hunting bad people in dangerous places is not in my current job description. Conversely, I'm aware that WMLs fail and even if I'm just checking on a barking dog, I'd like to know that I have proven-effective options for coaxial light+pistol on tap if the WML goes dark.

LSP552
02-12-2014, 10:17 PM
In my case, I like to have as many tools in the toolbox as possible. I'm thankful that hunting bad people in dangerous places is not in my current job description. Conversely, I'm aware that WMLs fail and even if I'm just checking on a barking dog, I'd like to know that I have proven-effective options for coaxial light+pistol on tap if the WML goes dark.

We agree that everyone using a gun for defense should understand light options and PRACTICE them.

Ken

Dagga Boy
02-12-2014, 10:33 PM
Sometimes with too many tools in the toolbox, you have a hard time picking which one in a crisis.

LSP552 is on the money. I also wonder about CHL holders wanting to run a WML for daily carry to "be able to find bad guys"....bad move, the idea in that world is to not be searching for them, its avoiding them. Now for home defense, I am a huge proponent and my bedside guns all have very powerful Surefire lights on them (and multiple handhelds within easy reach if I have to go mobil. In this case you want to bunker, light it, I.D. it, and eliminate it if lethal force is justified. And for God's sake if you do go outside to "check something out", BRING A FLASHLIGHT, especially if you take a gun (even if it has a WML on it). Using the gun as a flashlight outdoors is not a good tactic, and heaven forbide if what you find with your weapon mounted light that you are using for a flashlight is the local Police looking for a prowler, a police dog, your kid sneaking home, a neighbor who is also checking for a noise (or sneaking home;)), the power company worker trying to track down a problem, or any one of a number of things that should not be having a gun pointed at them.

ToddG
02-12-2014, 11:01 PM
Much of this discussion like most things shooting, are situational and mission driven. A patrol officer's light usage techniques will be driven by different requirements than folks not working in that environment. There is a reason you are hearing the law enforcement preference towards Harries, modified FBI, or neck index. It just transitions better from searching to shooting than the Rogers, cigar, syringe, etc.

I'm not sure how that's different from a civilian who finds himself needing to PID then shoot. Which is why I think you're seeing more and more "CCW" type shooters -- and trainers -- leaning toward those same search-oriented techniques and fewer are doing the "shoot a little faster" stuff these days. I've got pretty short fingers so the Rogers technique just never really worked for me at all. But I do practice SHO shooting quite a bit so I tend to be as good or better shooting from a neck index as I am shooting from some compromised 2-hand-with-light grip on the gun.

Dagga Boy
02-12-2014, 11:22 PM
I'm not sure how that's different from a civilian who finds himself needing to PID then shoot. Which is why I think you're seeing more and more "CCW" type shooters -- and trainers -- leaning toward those same search-oriented techniques and fewer are doing the "shoot a little faster" stuff these days. I've got pretty short fingers so the Rogers technique just never really worked for me at all. But I do practice SHO shooting quite a bit so I tend to be as good or better shooting from a neck index as I am shooting from some compromised 2-hand-with-light grip on the gun.

Where is Todd? Somebody is posting under his name. I want my nemesis back. First GJM and now this...........arrrggghhhhh.

ToddG
02-12-2014, 11:23 PM
Where is Todd? Somebody is posting under his name. I want my nemesis back. First GJM and now this...........arrrggghhhhh.

Harries is still teh ghey.

GJM
02-12-2014, 11:34 PM
Where is Todd? Somebody is posting under his name. I want my nemesis back. First GJM and now this...........arrrggghhhhh.

Hey, I like the Rogers technique enough to have a fat rubber band on my pocket light and to use my light routinely in the Rogers position, making it very fast to acquire a two hand grip. I did a video for a few buds a month or two ago, and I can draw to the Rogers method just .1 or .2 slower than a "normal draw," as long as I start with the light in my hand.

GJM
02-12-2014, 11:36 PM
Harries is still teh ghey.

If the match director is following, IDPA would just have DQ'd you. Now that is ghey.

Dagga Boy
02-12-2014, 11:43 PM
Harries is still teh ghey.

There you are............thank goodness:cool:

TheTrevor
02-13-2014, 01:26 AM
Sometimes with too many tools in the toolbox, you have a hard time picking which one in a crisis.

I'm big on simplicity. At this point I'm looking for even one technique that works well for me involving both hands stabilizing the gun while pointing a handheld flashlight in the right direction. It's not like I have a lot to choose from in that drawer of the toolbox, hence my excitement that Harries 'clicked' for me after your explanation.

Dagga Boy
02-13-2014, 08:23 AM
I'm big on simplicity. At this point I'm looking for even one technique that works well for me involving both hands stabilizing the gun while pointing a handheld flashlight in the right direction. It's not like I have a lot to choose from in that drawer of the toolbox, hence my excitement that Harries 'clicked' for me after your explanation.

That is sort of my point on this. When really "working" low light problems, that light is moving a lot and there is a lot of variables in where it needs to be in some very short time frames. It is why I am asking about those who are using a syringe on the gun and then I am trying to wrap my head around what people using the the syringe are doing for support side barricades and when the light needs to be separate from the pistol. With the system I teach you can go from the light on either side of the gun to the neck index to Modified FBI to using it as an impact tool and use it from retention with easy flow and you never have to change where the light is in your hand, and you do not need a "special" light.

LSP972
02-13-2014, 08:31 AM
and you do not need a "special" light.

You mean one with a... pleasure aid... on it? :D

.

justintime
02-13-2014, 11:00 AM
I'm big on simplicity. At this point I'm looking for even one technique that works well for me involving both hands stabilizing the gun while pointing a handheld flashlight in the right direction. It's not like I have a lot to choose from in that drawer of the toolbox, hence my excitement that Harries 'clicked' for me after your explanation.

The problem is using only one technique inside tight confined spaces/barricades is kinda hard. It's not a big deal to switch them up IMHO for the exceptions of the Rogers which I find hard to go back and forth from. Harries seems to be the most useful in my eyes

ToddG
02-13-2014, 11:08 AM
I just use neck index and opposite side neck index with a very liberal definition of "index." Shooting is all SHO but I also try to keep in mind that just because I started with a light in my hand doesn't mean I have to end with a light in my hand. Circumstances can very easily make it so simply dropping the light to get best grip/shooting becomes the smartest option. Holding on to my light for the next search/shoot doesn't help me if I die first. Just my $0.02, of course. Dying might be the better answer for someone else and it's not place to judge. :cool:

Mr_White
02-13-2014, 11:10 AM
I am interested in giving the Rogers technique another try. It's been a while since I've tried it very seriously. I tried to put it to work the other night in our dynamic pin races with the training group, but I think the pressure of the exercise and my lack of practice with the Rogers technique kept it from working for me. I used what I am more practiced with - neck index and Harries.

Chuck Haggard
02-13-2014, 11:56 AM
That is sort of my point on this. When really "working" low light problems, that light is moving a lot and there is a lot of variables in where it needs to be in some very short time frames. It is why I am asking about those who are using a syringe on the gun and then I am trying to wrap my head around what people using the the syringe are doing for support side barricades and when the light needs to be separate from the pistol. With the system I teach you can go from the light on either side of the gun to the neck index to Modified FBI to using it as an impact tool and use it from retention with easy flow and you never have to change where the light is in your hand, and you do not need a "special" light.



^This^

NETim
02-13-2014, 12:28 PM
That is sort of my point on this. When really "working" low light problems, that light is moving a lot and there is a lot of variables in where it needs to be in some very short time frames. It is why I am asking about those who are using a syringe on the gun and then I am trying to wrap my head around what people using the the syringe are doing for support side barricades and when the light needs to be separate from the pistol. With the system I teach you can go from the light on either side of the gun to the neck index to Modified FBI to using it as an impact tool and use it from retention with easy flow and you never have to change where the light is in your hand, and you do not need a "special" light.

Not an expert on this subject by any means, but I have been running Harries for my strongside approaches and the "syringe" for weakside. I have something of an advantage as my natural strong hand is running the light and naturally has more dexterity. I don't have much trouble swapping the light's position in my paw. I like to run the "syringe" version as I can wrap a coupla fingers around the grip and gain a little more control. Then too, I believe the "O" ring system I have on my lights maintains the light in a more workable position to perform these light-fingered gymnastics.

More complex I know, but it's been working for me in my experience limited solely to the training/practice environment. (Not that I intend to do any house clearing anyway. I want none of that. Let 'em come to me if it has to be.)

LSP552
02-13-2014, 12:46 PM
I'm not sure how that's different from a civilian who finds himself needing to PID then shoot. Which is why I think you're seeing more and more "CCW" type shooters -- and trainers -- leaning toward those same search-oriented techniques and fewer are doing the "shoot a little faster" stuff these days. I've got pretty short fingers so the Rogers technique just never really worked for me at all. But I do practice SHO shooting quite a bit so I tend to be as good or better shooting from a neck index as I am shooting from some compromised 2-hand-with-light grip on the gun.

Todd,

I'd agree that they are similar. The biggest difference will probably be in duration of light use, rapid need and a more varied environment. The law enforcement usage could last a long time ranging from traffic stops/field interviews/checking a building with open door/actively chasing and hunting. For the most part, the LE light usage is not based on surprise. The CCW use is probably much more compressed with the immediate need to ID a potential threat and rapidly work through the decision making process.

I'd go so far as say that the ability to rapidly transition from lighting/IDing the threat to planting a light in someone's forehead is even more important for non-LE because they probably don't have access to a baton, OC, lightening, other less-lethal alternatives, or 10 friends. Its also probably far more likely to be a surprise light up and assess than the on the LE side.

Ken

ToddG
02-13-2014, 12:55 PM
The biggest difference will probably be in duration of light use,

Totally agree.


rapid need

Whether you come across the guy on the job or I do in the alley, rapidity of response isn't likely to be different IMHO.


and a more varied environment.

While my gut wants to scream "no" I think that's a totally valid comment from a real world perspective. There are all sorts of places you have to go that I wouldn't under just about any circumstances. I know when we were doing the lowlight segment of AMIS in the Culpeper Rape Dungeon there were many times I thought to myself that I never had been and never would be in a place like that. And you can't prove otherwise. :cool:

Chuck Haggard
02-13-2014, 12:57 PM
I think the use of light by LE vastly outweighs the amount of what is actually needed in a CCW situation. One is a daily occurrence, the other is, in my observation, so rare that I'm not sure why people would even worry about it.

Seriously. I'll note that none of Tom's student shootings involving anything close to the good guy needing to light up a target for PID. This is because it's really hard to rob people when you can't see them. Cops go looking for bad guys who like to run and hide in dark holes, other people not so much.

I don't worry about light use while off duty nearly as much as I do for on duty work, and for good reasons.

ToddG
02-13-2014, 12:59 PM
I don't worry about light use while off duty nearly as much as I do for on duty work, and for good reasons.

http://www.myrpgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/KillingCows.png

One of the smartest things in this thread so far, though... (and one reason why I get snotty when folks say they don't need night sights because they'll have white light).

Chuck Haggard
02-13-2014, 01:04 PM
Seriously, I have gone into basements to look for murder suspects while I am at work. Why would anyone do such a thing if they didn't have to?


Bad guy robbing me in a parking lot? Pretty sure it's light enough for me to see I be gettin robbed, and I should have an idea who the bad guy is right about then.

LSP552
02-13-2014, 01:15 PM
Whether you come across the guy on the job or I do in the alley, rapidity of response isn't likely to be different IMHO.

The biggest difference is if I'm in the alley I'm probably looking for someone so my light is in my hand and working. I'd agree there are exceptions to this and anyone who is surprised has the same immediate need.

While my gut wants to scream "no" I think that's a totally valid comment from a real world perspective. There are all sorts of places you have to go that I wouldn't under just about any circumstances. I know when we were doing the lowlight segment of AMIS in the Culpeper Rape Dungeon there were many times I thought to myself that I never had been and never would be in a place like that. And you can't prove otherwise. :cool:

This is one area that I worry about in general. It's pretty easy to get technical training in a lot of things, which is all good! The problem is sometimes there isn't a discussion on when should you do it along with how to do it. Luck will always be a factor in any fight. The goal of training is to reduce the luck factor to 5% instead of 95%. One example is a former co-worker shot in the chest chasing a robber on foot. The bad guy at full run throws a shot over the shoulder and catches the trooper in the chest (survived). That's the 5% you can't ever control for. Putting yourself in a position you don't have to be in, regardless of how well you shoot, your mindset, training, etc is always a roll of the dice.



Of course, I'm retired now and admit there are many times when I don't carry a light at all.

Ken

ToddG
02-13-2014, 01:19 PM
If I'm in a dark area I almost always have my flashlight in my hand. It's a benefit of carrying the little light to begin with and has been discussed upthread, there are times when just a light -- immediately -- can solve problems that you'd never want to use a gun for.

Mr_White
02-13-2014, 01:27 PM
I'll note that none of Tom's student shootings involving anything close to the good guy needing to light up a target for PID. This is because it's really hard to rob people when you can't see them.

Thanks for bringing that up. That's a pretty persuasive citation to me.

littlejerry
02-13-2014, 01:32 PM
If I'm in a dark area I almost always have my flashlight in my hand. It's a benefit of carrying the little light to begin with and has been discussed upthread, there are times when just a light -- immediately -- can solve problems that you'd never want to use a gun for.

When I was a student in Atlanta I was returning home late at night(unarmed by law) and came across a character who appeared to be casing cars in the apartment parking lot. I lit him up with a light and his immediate response was to spin around and put his hands up. Almost as if he had done it a few times before... When I told him he was trespassing and needed to leave he ran.

Dagga Boy
02-13-2014, 01:39 PM
If I'm in a dark area I almost always have my flashlight in my hand. It's a benefit of carrying the little light to begin with and has been discussed upthread, there are times when just a light -- immediately -- can solve problems that you'd never want to use a gun for.

I have solved countless problems and encounters off-duty and while retired with a high performance flashlight. I was in a very similar situation the the guy who is on trial for shooting the teen in a car next to him over loud music. I was being stalked by a car full of teen idiots. While I had a pistol very available, the shot into their vehicle with an M6 guardian lit their car like the sun and I could really see if any were armed. They didn't want to play anymore. Same with confronting suspicious persons. Use of a good light will usually make them choose a new victim.

I carry a very good Surefire light anytime I leave the house, day or night.

Chuck Whitlock
02-13-2014, 01:57 PM
I use my flashlight far more often than anything other tool I carry, both on and off duty, for general, mundane tasks.
Spyderco folding knife would be second.

azant
02-13-2014, 02:09 PM
Just a question for those using techniques with the light held between the fingers and using the palm to activate (Rogers, cigar, syringe, whatever...). How are you holding the light when you go to neck index or off line (Modified FBI)?

nyeti,

I really feel that you could tell me more about this than I think I know, but I'll tell you how I do it and then you can tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I most often use a standard club grip/ neck index method when doing traffic stops, disturbance calls, etc. However, I also use the syringe method for some tasks. My Surefire Z2X is holstered on my belt and is my go to when I need light right now (and I was silly enough not to already have one in my hand). An alarm call that could lead to a building search, manhunt in the woods, robbery, etc will have me accessing the same light and attaching myself to it with the lanyard.

I use the light with syringe technique in the same way I use the club grip.....mostly...........I modify placement somewhat. I also have flexible wrists.......

My index point when using neck index, is actually my thumb indexing on my jaw at the base of my ear. Harries has both arms locked-ish and crossed at the wrists with the weak hand knuckles braced against the back of the strong hand. From a true Harries 'rotate the weak hand knuckles toward the target' is pretty much my method.

Now why I use syringe goes back to when we bolted our weapon mounted lights on our guns and didn't think about carrying them on our duty belt that way. I came into this job long after the lantern on the bayonet, but before they started making lights out of plastic. The first Surefire light I had was actually a 6Z and I carried it on the duty belt just as I do now. I was using a bezel to thumb side grip with my SL20, actuating with the thumb and shooting using a thumb to thumb technique. (I would roll the light to the Harries-ish position by crossing the wrists and rotating the weak side palm up.) I had found myself on a number of occasions in a neck index assessing people and was trying to get both hands on the gun without having to cross my wrists so that I could shoot better in a quicker time frame, which led to the thumb to thumb.

After going to thumb to thumb, I found myself wanting a gun and a light at the same time on a number of occasions while my SL20 was rolling around on the ground nearby, either because it had stopped working, or it's time as an impact tool had ceased in favor of some other force option prior to deciding a gun might be a good idea. I found when I grabbed my Z2X, it was faster and more natural, for me, to grap it syringe style and most often it would go out and join up thumb to thumb with the gun.

So.......I've adapted syringe to work pretty well...for me.....using a semblance of most of the techniques. I get to practice it on every building search. Well, I used to.....now I pretty much watch other people shoot, so my practice is at home. I live so far out in the sticks that whenever I get too far from the house in the dark the only light available is whatever I brought with me and Mother Nature.

When I teach new recruits, I teach club grip and neck index for shooting with modified FBI for searching because I think those two are the most often used techniques under stress. We'll also cover Harries, but I do not spend a lot of time on it because it is the easiest to shoot from and I want to work on the harder to shoot neck index on the range with the limited amount of time available.

That's a lot more than what you asked for, but it gives me the opportunity to get free tips!!

Chuck Haggard
02-13-2014, 02:59 PM
If I'm in a dark area I almost always have my flashlight in my hand. It's a benefit of carrying the little light to begin with and has been discussed upthread, there are times when just a light -- immediately -- can solve problems that you'd never want to use a gun for.


I have MUC'd a number of people with a blip of the light to the face, it tends to reset their OODA loop nicely. Most bad guys equate powerful lights to cops. It also projects a message of being ready, and thus not an easy meal or someone that really wants to give up that dollar.

That said, in none of those situations would I have needed a light to PID the guy if it was going straight to guns.

ToddG
02-13-2014, 03:21 PM
That said, in none of those situations would I have needed a light to PID the guy if it was going straight to guns.

Again, agree 100%. "Hey, there's a guy shouting at me to give him my wallet or he's going to shoot me in the head. I better see what's going on!" :cool:

justintime
02-13-2014, 03:36 PM
But melty face powers

NickA
02-13-2014, 03:45 PM
Most bad guys equate powerful lights to cops. It also projects a message of being ready, and thus not an easy meal or someone that really wants to give up that dollar.


That's the exact point John Farnam made in the first pistol class I took: Light in the face and an authoritative voice is a great opener for a MUC encounter. It was (pardon the pun) a real light bulb moment for me, that there's more to this stuff than just carrying a gun.

Dagga Boy
02-13-2014, 04:46 PM
Yea, I have a light in case I am MUCing some guy I may have to ECQC or if I have to AMIS and then ECQC the dude.......how did I do :cool:.

TheTrevor
02-13-2014, 06:29 PM
{raises hand}

Um, I think I got a Bingo AND a double word score on that one?

Dropkick
02-13-2014, 08:10 PM
I just use neck index and opposite side neck index with a very liberal definition of "index."
Thanks! A light went on for me when reading that. *pun implied, groan right?*

And hurray for the AMIS Culpeper rape dungeon. Talk about any time I used the light I turned myself into a huge target.

That being said, during a VCAST evo, I used my light to deter encroachment, keep better watch of the unknown's hands, and also used the light to give me a cover of darkness behind it to preemptively draw to behind my leg just before things went sideways. In the debrief immediately afterwards, no one (in the evo or watching) saw the draw. While that helped me to stay ahead of the initiative curve in the start, the rest of the evo didn't work as well.

Chuck Haggard
02-13-2014, 08:50 PM
Yea, I have a light in case I am MUCing some guy I may have to ECQC or if I have to AMIS and then ECQC the dude.......how did I do :cool:.


That was all kinds of dynamic operator.

orionz06
02-13-2014, 09:22 PM
Thanks! A light went on for me when reading that. *pun implied, groan right?*

And hurray for the AMIS Culpeper rape dungeon. Talk about any time I used the light I turned myself into a huge target.

That being said, during a VCAST evo, I used my light to deter encroachment, keep better watch of the unknown's hands, and also used the light to give me a cover of darkness behind it to preemptively draw to behind my leg just before things went sideways. In the debrief immediately afterwards, no one (in the evo or watching) saw the draw. While that helped me to stay ahead of the initiative curve in the start, the rest of the evo didn't work as well.

That was eye opening to see how effective a few blips of light were in failing light.

Dagga Boy
02-13-2014, 09:27 PM
That was all kinds of dynamic operator.

Actually, it was Jr. Varsity cause I left out a FUT after going ECQC on after MUCing. Still working on the new stuff as I am stuck in going hyper violent in a denied area while operating in reality.

psalms144.1
02-13-2014, 10:28 PM
I use my flashlight far more often than anything other tool I carry, both on and off duty, for general, mundane tasks.
Spyderco folding knife would be second.Sotex - I'm with you on this 1000 percent. It has happened so frequently that my wife, the least tactical person in the multiverse, asked for a small Fenix light for her birthday after I got snotty about her constantly "borrowing" mine and not returning it. I can't tell you the number of times, on and off duty, when my small, hand held light literally "saved the day" without any gunfire necessary.

Regards,

Kevin

Chuck Haggard
02-14-2014, 01:04 AM
I had to use my light a few nights ago to change a flat tire in a dark area. Stuff like that is really important as well IMHO.

Dagga Boy
02-14-2014, 01:09 AM
I had to use my light a few nights ago to change a flat tire in a dark area. Stuff like that is really important as well IMHO.

Don't you Captains have drivers who can do that stuff for you?

Chuck Whitlock
02-14-2014, 12:35 PM
Don't you Captains have drivers who can do that stuff for you?

El Capitan, now? Did you write a memo about the necessity of wearing hats and neckties? :confused:

Chuck Haggard
02-14-2014, 12:51 PM
El Capitan, now? Did you write a memo about the necessity of wearing hats and neckties? :confused:

No, DB is just living up to his initials again:p, still a lowly LT I am.

Chuck Whitlock
02-14-2014, 01:33 PM
:cool:

Rich
02-26-2014, 05:03 PM
My handguns in the past didn't have a rail system.

And with all the compact and sub compact pistol light coming out , I wanted to start packing IWB-L .

I've been trying different holds using a P2X Fury along with a Pistol Mounted Light !

And Im finding out that I like the FBI and the neck index holds. And at onetime I would of never thought I would use those 2 holds.

Oh I got some combat rings that I don't care for. . If a leo could put them to good use let me know.

Rich
02-26-2014, 05:25 PM
That was my favorite low light tactic............make it light. I also used a lot of deception with light combined with driving with light. The key was having multiple lights.

Does a break away lanyard and a compact light (neck carry FBI & neck index) have any value when run a pistol with a mounted light?

I've been entertaining the idea for some time now?

Chuck Whitlock
03-07-2014, 10:50 AM
Does a break away lanyard and a compact light (neck carry FBI & neck index) have any value when run a pistol with a mounted light?

I've been entertaining the idea for some time now?

The pistol mounted light does not replace a handheld. It merely augments the pistol and opens up a few extra options.

Dagga Boy
03-07-2014, 04:46 PM
Does a break away lanyard and a compact light (neck carry FBI & neck index) have any value when run a pistol with a mounted light?

I've been entertaining the idea for some time now?

Sorry, I missed this. I actually used to use a high lumen handheld with a long lanyard from around my neck quite a bit if I knew I was going into a difficult low light problems.

1slow
03-07-2014, 06:13 PM
Sorry, I missed this. I actually used to use a high lumen handheld with a long lanyard from around my neck quite a bit if I knew I was going into a difficult low light problems.

Now I feel really stupid, that this never occurred to me.

Rich
03-08-2014, 08:06 AM
Sorry, I missed this. I actually used to use a high lumen handheld with a long lanyard from around my neck quite a bit if I knew I was going into a difficult low light problems.

Thank You.

Rich
03-08-2014, 08:18 AM
The pistol mounted light does not replace a handheld.

I never said it did?

Chuck Whitlock
03-09-2014, 09:16 AM
I never said it did?

Perhaps I misunderstood this:


Does a break away lanyard and a compact light (neck carry FBI & neck index) have any value when run a pistol with a mounted light?

I've been entertaining the idea for some time now?

I've known of more than a few folks who think that if they have a WML then they don't need a handheld at all. This practice has folks pointing loaded guns and things that are not threats.
Apologies if you felt that I felt that was you. The emphasis was general.

ToddG
03-09-2014, 02:17 PM
Been thinking about flashlight technique a lot lately. As I've said before, for the most part I've never found any of the 2-hands-touching-pistol techniques to work well for me. But Julie Golob -- who isn't the person you'd probably think of first for combat pistol stuff but who is pretty smart when someone tells her she needs to go shoot IDPA stages in the dark -- came up with something years ago that was just brilliant... I just didn't fully appreciate it at the time. It literally allows me to use my normal 2H firing grip, but there's also a light in my hand that magically works.

Before I mentioned it I did a quick search on Google because I thought, there has to be someone else who's teaching this. The closest thing I found was this, and I thought it was pretty funny (a) how the guy in the video presents his opinion and (2) that a competitive shooter and a all-tactics, all-the-time guy both came up with essentially the same technique... Julie just did it years sooner. :cool:


http://youtu.be/5_m7wvTzhgg

You can call it whatever you want. It's the Julie Method as far as I'm concerned... Sorry my video isn't as lively...


http://youtu.be/ET7Qlq65JZw

HeadHunter
03-09-2014, 04:32 PM
Reposted from TPI with Todd's permission.

I shot a night IDPA match yesterday. Shooting at night is always good practice that’s hard to get enough of. This is the second night match conducted at this club, the previous being last year around this time. Although night shooting, per se, is only a small part of the problem, it’s the most difficult to get any practice time on so I always jump on the opportunity.

There were several learning points, some about the group, in general, and some particular to me.

Group observations

Americans are addicted to light. There was a First Quarter Moon (half illuminated) with not a cloud in the sky. It was quite easy to walk around and do ordinary tasks without the use of a flashlight. However, people routinely used high output flashlights to walk around and even load magazines by. That’s unnecessary and bad self-training. A single flash of a high intensity flashlight destroys part of your night vision that can take up to 30 minutes to recover. I saw this many times when I instructed at Rogers. Flashlights are seldom necessary for routine tasks in the ambient light usually available. Note that this range is a considerable distance from Atlanta, there is no artificial illumination on the range, and yet the moonlight was more than adequate.

Much of this dependency stems from two things.

1) A lack of education about night observation principles and how the eye works at night.

2) Being afraid of the dark.

I feel fortunate that I was trained using the 1967 edition of FM 21-75 Combat Training of the Individual Soldier and Patrolling. The later editions, including the latest, FM 3-21.75 Warrior Ethos and Soldier Combat Skills (https://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-21-75.pdf), rely much more on explanations of how to work with Night Vision Goggles, etc. than on unaided night vision. While NVGs are highly useful in the military context, understanding unaided night vision is much more useful in the context of the private citizen.

For those who are interested, the USMC has a short document CMC-31 Low Light Night Engagement Techniques (http://www.lejeune.marines.mil/Portals/27/Documents/WTBN/MTU/Preparatory Classes/CMC-31 Low Light Night Engagement Techniques.doc) giving fundamentals of unaided night vision. The US Army NIGHTFIGHTER program document (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA310099) of the Infantry Forces Research Unit provides a detailed explanation of unaided night vision fundamentals, principles, and techniques.

Dealing with fears of boogeymen in the dark (http://www.webmd.com/children/features/fear-of-the-dark?page=2) is generally outside my lane, so I have limited comment on what to do about it. I will say that familiarity breeds confidence. Spending more time in darkness while focused on task accomplishment is quite helpful, in my observation. Learning to do things in reduced visibility is somewhat akin to doing things with the support hand, IMO.

People want to operate at the same speed at night that they do in the daytime. This is a mistake. Things take longer to do at night than they do in the daytime. As an example of scaling, that club’s daytime matches usually take 2-2.5 hours to run four stages. The night match ran three hours to shoot three stages. So, there was approximately a 40 percent decrease in tempo. This was also apparent in people’s shooting. Much of the shooting was done in daytime cadence but the results were nowhere near as good. Part of the accuracy decrease was due to using different shooting systems, either laser, flashlight, or a combination. Shooting using less familiar methods takes more time to achieve the same level of accuracy.

The USMC publication also contains this jewel:

“Combat Mindset. In the stress of the combat environment, you must have the ability to eliminate any hesitation, fear, or uncertainty of action and to focus on the actions to fire well aimed shots. This is more important during low light and darkness than it is in daytime because your attention is more easily diverted and your sense of vision is reduced. This can create a shock of awareness as you rely more heavily on your other senses. Every noise, movement, and muzzle blast appears intensified at night. … [the] physical acts of shooting must become second nature so your focus will not be diverted from firing well-aimed shots.”


I often hear people say they carry more than one flashlight. If so, at least one should be a red light, not white. This will facilitate doing mundane tasks without destroying your night vision. I have a small red keychain light for this purpose. It serves admirably for reading maps, finding the hits on a target, etc. At Rogers, I used a red light that clipped onto my cap brim. For anyone who runs a night range, something like this is a necessity IMO. I got the idea from Ken Hackathorn.

When using a white flashlight, be conscious of the people around you. Several people unintentionally nailed me with their flashlights over the course of the match. One woman was no more than five feet from me when she shone her light directly in my eyes; “Oh, I wasn’t flashing you.” Could have fooled me.

Many people had never before used a flashlight when shooting and tried to learn it OJT on the firing line. They found out, much to their chagrin, that was a big mistake. Practice with your light at home if you intend to use it for serious purposes. If you have a multifunctional light, e.g., high, low, strobe, get plenty of practice with it ahead of time.

Personal observations

In last year’s match, I was able to cheat using the laser only for target identification. It actually works pretty well. I don’t consider it anymore of a downrange safety violation than using a two handed flashlight shooting technique. This year, it bit me in the ass. The difference was a target that was partially obscured by a non-threat instead of a simple IFF situation. The laser didn’t allow me to determine the demarcation line between the threat and non-threat, so I wounded the non-threat.

There’s been a long discussion on Pistol-Forum about transitioning between various flashlight techniques. One of the stages provided a decent testing ground for this. The stage had three consecutive shooting positions, each consisting of a pair of stacked barrels with two targets downrange. One target at each position was obscured with hard cover from the -0 zone down. The targets had to be engaged with a minimum of two shots, using the stacked barrels as cover.

My test was to shoot the first position with Harries, the second with Rogers, and the third with Reverse Harries. The alleged problem is the hand transition from bezel below the fist (Harries) to bezel between fingers (Rogers) and vice versa. I had no difficulty in switching hand positions; first position bezel down, second position bezel between fingers, third position bezel down. I did find the Reverse Harries to be an awkward shooting position. It forces the gun close to my face in a CAR-ish type arrangement. It took considerably longer to shoot that position than the other two. The upside was that it slowed me down so much and forced me to pay so much attention to what I was doing that I got better hits. I’m not sure the time tradeoff was worth it. The technique is not new to me, either. I have practiced it at home quite a bit because it is useful in one particular doorway in my home. I found doing a reload with the bezel down to be quite awkward compared to bezel between fingers. The button end of the light is right where the magazine needs to go and I also had a light ND during the reload.

I have to learn to protect myself from other people’s light NDs at these kind of events. How I will do that, I’m not sure, but it’s clearly a hole in my TTPs. Another thing I have to work on is my level of aggravation at people’s misuse of flashlights. That was a worthy exercise in self control for me. Since I wasn’t the Match Director, I had no control over it and just had to restrain myself.

Shooting wise, the laser continues to prove its worth in limited visibility. I like the button in front of the trigger guard system better than the side button arrangement that the CT on my Vertec uses, but that’s a minor thing.

I elected to not use my WML for the match in order to work on my handheld skills. While the handheld is a clear necessity for searching, shooting with one, compared to a WML, bites the dick.

Other things will probably come to mind but those stand out initially.

The amount of illumination available from the moon at any given time is available from the U.S. Naval Observatory.
Astronomical Applications Department
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php
Sun and Moon Data for One Day

It will provide you with:

The following information is provided for Jasper, Pickens County, Georgia (longitude W84.4, latitude N34.5):
Saturday
8 March 2014 Eastern Standard Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:33 a.m.
Sunrise 6:58 a.m.
Sun transit 12:48 p.m.
Sunset 6:40 p.m.
End civil twilight 7:05 p.m.
MOON
Moonrise 11:07 a.m. on preceding day
Moonset 1:22 a.m.
Moonrise 11:54 a.m.
Moon transit 7:03 p.m.
Moonset 2:11 a.m. on following day
First quarter Moon on 8 March 2014 at 8:27 a.m. Eastern Standard Time.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/moon_phases.php

First Quarter - One-half of the Moon appears to be illuminated by direct sunlight. The fraction of the Moon's disk that is illuminated is increasing.

Tom Givens
03-09-2014, 04:49 PM
Although shooting well in low light is a valuable skill, I think flashlight assisted shooting techniques for private citizens are probably greatly overemphasized in many training programs.

We recently had student involved shooting #64. Not one of the 64 used a flashlight, nor did any of them need a flashlight. Over 90% of our student incidents occur away from home. The flashlight is a pro-active instrument, not a reactive instrument. Therefore, about the only place I can see a private citizen needing a flashlight is in a home search for intruders, but this need can be minimized by proper residential lighting.

Cops need flashlight techniques to hunt down BG’s in the dark. Private citizens, not so much.

The other old myth is that “80% of shootings occur in the dark”. No, almost no shootings occur in the dark. What are you OR the bad guy doing in the dark? The more accurate statement would be “80% of shootings occur during the hours of darkness”. For statistical purposes, the hours of darkness are 6pm to 6am, so no surprise most pistol fights occur during that time frame. That does not mean they are in the dark. I have been on Stop ‘n Rob parking lots at 3am where I could see my sights and the bad guy better than I could at 3pm on an overcast day, due to commercial exterior lighting.

I would like to see much of the time/ammo spent on flashlight techniques spent on getting good hits in a reduced light/dim light/low light environment, which I consider far more likely for most people.

ToddG
03-09-2014, 04:59 PM
I would like to see much of the time/ammo spent on flashlight techniques spent on getting good hits in a reduced light/dim light/low light environment, which I consider far more likely for most people.

+1! To repeat myself from the same TPI thread:

It never ceases to amaze me how often people insist on using light to look at things they can see well enough without artificial light. In a shooting context I think a lot of it is just trained in... instructors spend so much time hammering on flashlight techniques that folks forget you don't need a bazillion lumens to tell the flash coming from the hand of that guy 15' feet away is him shooting at you.

Drang
03-09-2014, 05:15 PM
1) A lack of education about night observation principles and how the eye works at night.
Back In The Day I picked up a book, I think published by Stackpole (not listed in the catalog anymore) titled something like Outdoors In The Dark.
One thing that stuck with me is that the human eye works almost as well in the dark as the feline eye. ISTR that we also did an exercise intended to establish that fact for all us city boys at Outward Bound.

Thanks for the links, some interesting material there.

Dagga Boy
03-09-2014, 05:21 PM
I'll disagree a little with Tom here. Just go back and look at the thread on shooting the Alzheimer guy. While the flashlight was not critical in Tom's students shootings, I would venture that not having one was critical in a ton of the bad/mistaken identity shootings over the years. It is why I am so big on handheld techniques as critical. You may not ever have to use the flashlight and the gun together, but you damn well better know how to use a light if you ever investigate a bump in the night or are ever trying not to have a bad guy "come out of no where". Equally, if you carry a pistol, you should know how to run the thing on some basic skills. If, by chance, the light and gun need over run each other, there are some good techniques that allow them to work together. I have used a light FAR more than a gun to deal with a ton of situations. That includes while not doing "cop stuff".

Rich
03-09-2014, 05:23 PM
Perhaps I misunderstood this:



I've known of more than a few folks who think that if they have a WML then they don't need a handheld at all. This practice has folks pointing loaded guns and things that are not threats.
Apologies if you felt that I felt that was you. The emphasis was general.


I just assume everyone here knows this !

Drang
03-09-2014, 05:34 PM
The US Army NIGHTFIGHTER program document (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA310099) of the Infantry Forces Research Unit provides a detailed explanation of unaided night vision fundamentals, principles, and techniques.
That link takes you to "How to adjust your NVGs."
This link goes to "Unaided visual techniques": www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA304339 (www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA304339‎)‎
Available in paperback on Amazon...? Evaluation of an Unaided Night Vision Instructional Program for Ground Forces: (Technical Report 1032): Jean L. Dyer, Kimberli Gaillard, Nancy R. McClure, Suzanne M. Osborne, U.S. Army Research Institute: 9781468132182: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Evaluation-Unaided-Vision-Instructional-Program/dp/1468132180)

Totem Polar
03-09-2014, 06:00 PM
Been thinking about flashlight technique a lot lately. As I've said before, for the most part I've never found any of the 2-hands-touching-pistol techniques to work well for me. But Julie Golob -- who isn't the person you'd probably think of first for combat pistol stuff but who is pretty smart when someone tells her she needs to go shoot IDPA stages in the dark -- came up with something years ago that was just brilliant... I just didn't fully appreciate it at the time. It literally allows me to use my normal 2H firing grip, but there's also a light in my hand that magically works.

Before I mentioned it I did a quick search on Google because I thought, there has to be someone else who's teaching this. The closest thing I found was this, and I thought it was pretty funny (a) how the guy in the video presents his opinion and (2) that a competitive shooter and a all-tactics, all-the-time guy both came up with essentially the same technique... Julie just did it years sooner. :cool:


http://youtu.be/5_m7wvTzhgg

You can call it whatever you want. It's the Julie Method as far as I'm concerned...


Heh, that guy was enthusiastic... it's possible that we can thank the guy in the vid for calling the light grip itself the Graham method, since Graham's the one who came up with the rings in the vid and worked with surefire to get them out. I'm not trying to put words into Matt's mouth, but I'd guess that he feels that anything approaching his own "method" is more than just how it's held to light the world, but also deployment, retention, gun manipulation, etc. IMHO, of course. Disclaimer: Matt is a friend of mine. That said, in his most recent vid on low light he calls it "that method". Probably about right.

recent:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXX7hY8ui0Y

more on the rings (and similar designs):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICpBhV3bpi4

Great thread, folks. This has given me a ton of info to mull over.
:cool:

HeadHunter
03-09-2014, 06:46 PM
That link takes you to "How to adjust your NVGs."
This link goes to "Unaided visual techniques": www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA304339 (www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA304339‎)‎
Available in paperback on Amazon...? Evaluation of an Unaided Night Vision Instructional Program for Ground Forces: (Technical Report 1032): Jean L. Dyer, Kimberli Gaillard, Nancy R. McClure, Suzanne M. Osborne, U.S. Army Research Institute: 9781468132182: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Evaluation-Unaided-Vision-Instructional-Program/dp/1468132180)

Thanks for the headsup. This is the correct link.
www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA304339

There's also a more detailed document available.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a304276.pdf

SGT_Calle
03-09-2014, 07:00 PM
If I had a sound board with hilarious audio clips to accompany my everyday life that guy saying "phenomenal" would be put into the rotation (for about a week, then it would be annoying).

Dropkick
03-09-2014, 07:33 PM
http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/templates/main/main/GrahamMethod.jpg
http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/templates/main/main/GrahamMethod.jpg
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2598-Flashlight-techniques-in-low-light-matches&p=42701&viewfull=1#post42701

Dagga Boy
03-09-2014, 08:32 PM
First-I really like Matt Graham. I respect the heck out of him.

I really didn't like his technique for a couple of reasons. I don't like techniques that need "special lights" or "special accessories" to work. This goes back to define the mission and whose it is. In Matt's case, he was a FAM and they could not carry a WML. If the lights went down in the plane, they needed light to shoot with. Key-shoot with. Not a bunch of searching. Harries and many of these other techniques are "search" techniques you can shoot with. Others are "shoot with light" techniques. What do YOU need. I needed a search technique that I could shoot from, which is why I use the techniques i use and teach. I also depend on my lights as a force tool, so i need to be able to strike with it. The other big issue I found with the Graham method is that light will keep sinking downward the more you shoot. Again, this is a good technique for shooting while running the aisle on a tubular assault..........which I don't do a lot of, so its filed in the "good things to know" section of my brain. Also, if you look at how most "low light" matches are done, this also makes sense.......its not like you are going to have to come off and strike something, or you are really searching for anything, and the targets are going very far (same as in an aircraft). By the way, I am a big proponent of the high ready for working in tubular assaults as well, and why it is fairly limited in my daily world. Again, application of the skill and TTP's is very situationally dependent.

HeadHunter
03-09-2014, 09:18 PM
The other big issue I found with the Graham method is that light will keep sinking downward the more you shoot.

Have to agree here. When I watched from the catwalk during a Hack/LAV lowlight class years ago, I noticed how often when the light shines low, the target ID takes a lot longer. Too long; you're dead, long. So any technique that doesn't collimate the light with the bore is a no-go for me.

Casual Friday
03-09-2014, 10:26 PM
Although shooting well in low light is a valuable skill, I think flashlight assisted shooting techniques for private citizens are probably greatly overemphasized in many training programs.

We recently had student involved shooting #64. Not one of the 64 used a flashlight, nor did any of them need a flashlight. Over 90% of our student incidents occur away from home. The flashlight is a pro-active instrument, not a reactive instrument. Therefore, about the only place I can see a private citizen needing a flashlight is in a home search for intruders, but this need can be minimized by proper residential lighting.

Cops need flashlight techniques to hunt down BG’s in the dark. Private citizens, not so much.

The other old myth is that “80% of shootings occur in the dark”. No, almost no shootings occur in the dark. What are you OR the bad guy doing in the dark? The more accurate statement would be “80% of shootings occur during the hours of darkness”. For statistical purposes, the hours of darkness are 6pm to 6am, so no surprise most pistol fights occur during that time frame. That does not mean they are in the dark. I have been on Stop ‘n Rob parking lots at 3am where I could see my sights and the bad guy better than I could at 3pm on an overcast day, due to commercial exterior lighting.

I would like to see much of the time/ammo spent on flashlight techniques spent on getting good hits in a reduced light/dim light/low light environment, which I consider far more likely for most people.

What is your opinion on night sights on defensive handguns for private citizens?

Chuck Haggard
03-10-2014, 08:49 AM
I'll disagree a little with Tom here. Just go back and look at the thread on shooting the Alzheimer guy. While the flashlight was not critical in Tom's students shootings, I would venture that not having one was critical in a ton of the bad/mistaken identity shootings over the years. It is why I am so big on handheld techniques as critical. You may not ever have to use the flashlight and the gun together, but you damn well better know how to use a light if you ever investigate a bump in the night or are ever trying not to have a bad guy "come out of no where". Equally, if you carry a pistol, you should know how to run the thing on some basic skills. If, by chance, the light and gun need over run each other, there are some good techniques that allow them to work together. I have used a light FAR more than a gun to deal with a ton of situations. That includes while not doing "cop stuff".

The difference here is that the dude that shot the little old man took on the role of cop hunting for bad guys, but did not train or equip himself for that role.

I strongly agree with Tom's assertion ref CCW folks and shootings since there will be light (tough to rob people when you are in the pitch black ninja closet) in such a scenario. If you have to go hunting, then lights become critical.

In an urban setting the whole idea of going outside to check out if there is a prowler is IMHO stupid as hell. Seriously. Stupid. As. Hell.

Keep watch, get the coppers in route to check things out, hunker down, wait.

I will throw out that the scenario you go out and walk into the middle of may be the little old man incident noted above, if may be a plain vanilla car burglar, or it may be the home invasion crew such as we had working here locally, and you will likely not be ready for the bad guy in the back yard being covered by the bad guy on your garage roof who is posted up with a shotgun just waiting for you to come out and investigate things.




What is your opinion on night sights on defensive handguns for private citizens?

To quote a buddy of mine who got into a OIS while he was undercover and got dragged into a armed robbery in-progress while trying to get a hamburger one night (and hit the bad guy in the dark from 33 feet), "Chuck, you know, night sights work really good at night".

Chuck Whitlock
03-10-2014, 10:15 AM
I agree with Tom that once the assault starts, the chances are slim-to-none that you will deploy a light in response to said assault.
However, Darryl and Chuck both make great points, and I think that a light can be used not only to PID a potential threat, but to possibly forestall that assault.

Let me share a recent personal anecdote:

A couple of weeks ago, my spouse and I were visiting my folks in south Texas. Our lap dog usually needs to go out to use the bathroom at zero-dark-thirty. There are a lot of trip hazards in the back yard, which fronts the parking lot of a jr. high school. The front of the house is on the corner of a cul-de-sac (basically roadway on 3 sides of house), so we take her out to the grass behind the fence. Plenty of artificial light and gray overcast generally provide more than adequate illumination.

So we are out with her on the leash ~0430ish. A dark 4-door pickup occupied approximately 3 times drives by in the parking lot (not at all unusual), then parks behind a house on the far side of the lot, shuts down headlights, but no one exits(incredibly kittening unsual), so I am very much in condition day-glo orange. After a bit, it starts rolling our way again, but we are done with our business and walking around the fence to the door. We are strolling around the fence and back to the door, and the truck continues on its merry way.

So, a non-event. However, if we had been approached by anyone on foot, or the truck got anywhere close to abreast of us, or turned the corner we had turned, the individual(s) or interior of the truck would have immediately received approximately 260 lumens in the face from the Streamlight PT2L that had migrated from my left pocket to my left fist, with my right fully prepared to access my G23 IWB @ 4:00(not sure if my bride had stuck her G19 in her waistband or not, since I was with her). I believe that at the very least that instantaneous "flash of brilliance" would have at least reset an OODA loop or two.

I fully believe that it was a non-event due to my situational awareness, and I truly believe that something about my posture/stance/positioning/whatever made us a "no-go" according to William Aprill.

I also believe that the great breath of knowledge shared here at P-F and TPI was instrumental in providing that to me, not to mention Craig's MUC block at last year's Tac Conference in Memphis.

Chuck Haggard
03-10-2014, 11:22 AM
MUCing people with a blip of light is a superb way to reset their OODA loop, done so several times.


If the dude I just MUCed had started to pull a gun on me then I would have dropped the light as I went for my gun and/or cover. I can easily be in a MUC scenario off duty and use the light as a "kitten off" tool, but that doesn't mean I need it to solve a shooting problem from there.

Chuck Whitlock
03-10-2014, 12:07 PM
If the dude I just MUCed had started to pull a gun on me then I would have dropped the light as I went for my gun and/or cover. I can easily be in a MUC scenario off duty and use the light as a "kitten off" tool, but that doesn't mean I need it to solve a shooting problem from there.

That was my exact plan in the above incident.

Dagga Boy
03-10-2014, 05:48 PM
I've solved so many problems by lighting up a MUC before a FUT starts that I am very ingrained in using the flashlight in the FUT as well as a tool for both AMIS and ECQC. I will note that my Maglite was much better for CIS (caving in skulls) in FUT's than FSS (face-smashing sh*theads) with the smaller crenelated Surefire's. The crenelated lights do have a good ability the MSH (make stuff hamburger) when they won't let go of things. I am also so ingrained with Harries that I just go to it without even thinking about it, but that is based on over two decades of working nights in both cop stuff and running a high threat security detail SRT unit. Also, in one of the events that "proved" a lot of things to me was the use of Harries was critical in "seeing" the threat where I wasn't really looking for it, reseting the idiots OODA loop, seeing the dynamic change in direction of the crook that needed a much tighter shot, and helped "clear" and identify the crook once down for others who were now responding to the shots in the downed crook, as well as being able to use the light to direct others to the suspects pistol that was now sitting in front of another guy. I guarantee I could have solved the problem without the light, but it would have been fighting from behind, and there would have been rounds in the good guys that were not ever fired. Again, victims of our own experience. Also, in my first shooting, I was not able to bring the light into play on suspect one who got dumped, but after I had to "wait" for the lighting conditions to get to the point that I could see the sights-47 yards away. Suspect 2 was in a totally different place, was armed with a pistol and essentially had the drop on me while I was dumping his co-offender. The second I "lit" him with the light mated to the for end of the shotgun, he threw the gun down and surrendered. Lights, can very much be a "game-changer" when dealing with "identification" adverse criminals. They very much act like roaches when illuminated.......panicky, yet still hard to kill.

cclaxton
03-11-2014, 10:04 PM
How close are we to night vision glasses that are nearly the same size/weight of regular shooting glasses?
It would seem to me that is the ideal: Being able to see in the dark without visible light.
Cody

Dropkick
03-12-2014, 12:33 PM
How close are we to night vision glasses that are nearly the same size/weight of regular shooting glasses?
It would seem to me that is the ideal: Being able to see in the dark without visible light.
Cody

Meh... I'm waiting for cyborg eye implants that do night vision, thermal, x-ray and a IFF HUD. :cool:

cclaxton
03-12-2014, 12:36 PM
http://news.discovery.com/tech/gear-and-gadgets/night-vision-cell-phone-eyeglasses.htm

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2010/05/night-vision-may-be-getting-whole-lot.html

Not as far away as I thought.
Cody

joshs
03-12-2014, 12:43 PM
How close are we to night vision glasses that are nearly the same size/weight of regular shooting glasses?
It would seem to me that is the ideal: Being able to see in the dark without visible light.
Cody

Not sure if you are serious, but a current generation dual tube night vision setup is about $8,000 or more and is a lot larger than a pair of glasses. I also don't think they would be ideal unless it worked like a pair of transitions lenses. If the glasses work like current night vision, going from dark areas to brightly lit areas would be a serious problem.

Rich
03-14-2014, 10:00 AM
I've solved so many problems by lighting up a MUC before a FUT starts that I am very ingrained in using the flashlight in the FUT as well as a tool for both AMIS and ECQC. I will note that my Maglite was much better for CIS (caving in skulls) in FUT's than FSS (face-smashing sh*theads) with the smaller crenelated Surefire's. The crenelated lights do have a good ability the MSH (make stuff hamburger) when they won't let go of things. I am also so ingrained with Harries that I just go to it without even thinking about it, but that is based on over two decades of working nights in both cop stuff and running a high threat security detail SRT unit. Also, in one of the events that "proved" a lot of things to me was the use of Harries was critical in "seeing" the threat where I wasn't really looking for it, reseting the idiots OODA loop, seeing the dynamic change in direction of the crook that needed a much tighter shot, and helped "clear" and identify the crook once down for others who were now responding to the shots in the downed crook, as well as being able to use the light to direct others to the suspects pistol that was now sitting in front of another guy. I guarantee I could have solved the problem without the light, but it would have been fighting from behind, and there would have been rounds in the good guys that were not ever fired. Again, victims of our own experience. Also, in my first shooting, I was not able to bring the light into play on suspect one who got dumped, but after I had to "wait" for the lighting conditions to get to the point that I could see the sights-47 yards away. Suspect 2 was in a totally different place, was armed with a pistol and essentially had the drop on me while I was dumping his co-offender. The second I "lit" him with the light mated to the for end of the shotgun, he threw the gun down and surrendered. Lights, can very much be a "game-changer" when dealing with "identification" adverse criminals. They very much act like roaches when illuminated.......panicky, yet still hard to kill.

I still have love for my Maglites. I keep one in the car. Now my Surefire Fury Defender & E2D Led will eat up cargo pockets. be warned

cclaxton
06-10-2014, 01:52 PM
Weapon Mounted Lights are certainly convenient, but at what risk and at what cost?

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/gun-mounted-flashlights-linked-deadly-accidental-police-shootings/

My own view is that I would rather have my flashlight detached so I can point it at a person without pointing the gun at them. It also allows me to hold the flashlight to the side to distract the fire away from my body in a shooting situation.

Cody

orionz06
06-10-2014, 01:56 PM
Two lights? WML doesn't replace a handheld.

Up1911Fan
07-22-2014, 11:41 PM
Any opinions on the Surefire "Combat light" type of G2ZX or P2ZX that have a built in ring?

Chuck Haggard
07-23-2014, 05:28 AM
Weapon Mounted Lights are certainly convenient, but at what risk and at what cost?

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/gun-mounted-flashlights-linked-deadly-accidental-police-shootings/

My own view is that I would rather have my flashlight detached so I can point it at a person without pointing the gun at them. It also allows me to hold the flashlight to the side to distract the fire away from my body in a shooting situation.

Cody


One, I really hope you didn't think anything in that article was more than spin, personal unfounded opinion and absolute BS.

I was deeply involved in the Plano case. It had NOTHING to do with a light being mounted on the pistol.

Take your sig line, and add "and a weapon mounted light to go on it" after gun and you are in business.

One does not have to point guns at people just because a light is on your gun.

Because I'm too lazy to write this twice;
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/224243
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/224255

Chuck Haggard
07-23-2014, 05:28 AM
Any opinions on the Surefire "Combat light" type of G2ZX or P2ZX that have a built in ring?

Works OK, I like the ring, but not the Rogers technique.

cclaxton
07-23-2014, 08:33 AM
One, I really hope you didn't think anything in that article was more than spin, personal unfounded opinion and absolute BS.

I was deeply involved in the Plano case. It had NOTHING to do with a light being mounted on the pistol.

Take your sig line, and add "and a weapon mounted light to go on it" after gun and you are in business.

One does not have to point guns at people just because a light is on your gun.

Because I'm too lazy to write this twice;
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/224243
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/224255

Chuck,
Thanks for educating us. BTW, I really liked how you emphasized that violating rule 2 is the cause of so many bad outcomes. I hope you don't mind I quoted one sentence from your article: "Covering the body of another human being with the muzzle of a firearm is a use of force, a threat of deadly force, whether shots are fired or not."

So, proper training is the key to use of weapon mounted lights...I see that clearly now.

So, since this is a pistol forum, let me ask this: Then do you recommend the use of both a WML on your handgun AND a handheld flashlight for lighting up the environment and use in the eyes of a suspect as a defensive tactic? Or, do you recommend just using a flashlight that has enough spread that you can operate without the handheld? Or, does it all depend on the situation?

I am just trying to figure out how the two work together.

Thanks,
Cody

orionz06
07-23-2014, 08:41 AM
Cody: take a trip to Oklahoma in October for AMIS.

Chuck Haggard
07-23-2014, 10:13 AM
Chuck,
Thanks for educating us. BTW, I really liked how you emphasized that violating rule 2 is the cause of so many bad outcomes. I hope you don't mind I quoted one sentence from your article: "Covering the body of another human being with the muzzle of a firearm is a use of force, a threat of deadly force, whether shots are fired or not."

So, proper training is the key to use of weapon mounted lights...I see that clearly now.

So, since this is a pistol forum, let me ask this: Then do you recommend the use of both a WML on your handgun AND a handheld flashlight for lighting up the environment and use in the eyes of a suspect as a defensive tactic? Or, do you recommend just using a flashlight that has enough spread that you can operate without the handheld? Or, does it all depend on the situation?

I am just trying to figure out how the two work together.

Thanks,
Cody

I strongly advocate both if one has the means to do so. For home defense where the good guy might be using a long gun to hole up and wait then a bright WML with good throw and spread will work.
For LE it's a no-brainer, even with a WML you need a handheld.

cclaxton
07-24-2014, 01:16 PM
Chuck: When I read this article I immediately thought of what you said about Cooper's Rule #2. These were Boy Scouts. Border guards should be trained better than this.
http://www.conservativeoutfitters.com/blogs/news/14925385-border-patrol-holds-gun-to-boy-scouts-head-threatens-prison-and-fine
Cody

Chuck Haggard
07-24-2014, 01:52 PM
Chuck: When I read this article I immediately thought of what you said about Cooper's Rule #2. These were Boy Scouts. Border guards should be trained better than this.
http://www.conservativeoutfitters.com/blogs/news/14925385-border-patrol-holds-gun-to-boy-scouts-head-threatens-prison-and-fine
Cody

Ummm, yeah.

Filming the cops is a well established area of case law. People can do so, period.

Pointing guns at people is what would be some version of Agg. Assault under most versions of the various state laws. Wearing a badge and saying "that's the way we do it around here" doesn't change that. That level of force should only be used when the threat of death or GBH is a valid response. Graham and Garner are always in play.

KevinB
07-24-2014, 02:22 PM
Ummm, yeah.

Filming the cops is a well established area of case law. People can do so, period..

Border Security Zones - and other Security Zones don't apply to that.

However that issue with the gun pulling, it does seem to be a little odd that when you ask a person (or even suspect) to perform an action you can't then use their action (that you asked them to do) as grounds for escalation of force.

TheTrevor
07-24-2014, 04:55 PM
However that issue with the gun pulling, it does seem to be a little odd that when you ask a person (or even suspect) to perform an action you can't then use their action (that you asked them to do) as grounds for escalation of force.

Seems to me that that's exactly how I would expect it to work. But maybe I'm just looking at this the wrong way. Or that didn't come out the way you meant?

KevinB
07-24-2014, 05:38 PM
Seems to me that that's exactly how I would expect it to work. But maybe I'm just looking at this the wrong way. Or that didn't come out the way you meant?

Officer A: Sir get out of the car.
Suspect: Yes Sir - gets out of car
Officer A: Draws down on person for getting out of car.

Compliant Suspect.


If Border Patrol Agent had told the Scout to stay in the vehicle, and to not get up and get the luggage down from the car rack for inspection, then you could perhaps articulate as to why you where escalating beyond verbal commands.

But when you tell someone to get something, you cannot then shoot them for reaching for it...
Baiting - its illegal most places (unfortunately ;))

Dropkick
07-24-2014, 09:36 PM
Yeah, so flashlights...
I got a compliment today on my little Pelican 1910 I've been carrying lately. It takes a AAA, so it's easy to clip onto a pocket and not notice, but this guy did. I let him look it over for less than I minute and he offered to buy it from me on the spot. Sometimes it's not the size of your light that matters. ;)

cclaxton
07-27-2014, 10:40 PM
Just picked up one of these in green at the Chantilly Gun Show....
AAA battery, 130 lumens....includes strobe function. Twists on.
I hardly notice I am holding it when I am using two handed grip on the gun.
This is my new flashlight for dark stages in IDPA and KSTG.
http://powertacusa.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=219
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/theshorelinemarket_2322_139459183
Cody

Up1911Fan
07-27-2014, 11:16 PM
A P2ZX Fury Combatlight should arrive tomorrow to see how it works out.

Chuck Haggard
07-28-2014, 06:49 AM
Just picked up one of these in green at the Chantilly Gun Show....
AAA battery, 130 lumens....includes strobe function. Twists on.

Cody

Makes it a good admin light for if you need to change a tire in the dark or whatever, but a horrible tactical light.

cclaxton
07-28-2014, 07:30 AM
Makes it a good admin light for if you need to change a tire in the dark or whatever, but a horrible tactical light.
Agreed, but an excellent night stage competition light. But educate me on why it's not a good light to use in a self-defense situation.
Cody

Chuck Haggard
07-28-2014, 07:31 AM
Twisty switch is a no-go. You need to be able to use momentary lighting.