I saw a lady almost die this morning.

[Brazos Dan]

Saved by her cell phone, believe it or not!

I was stopped behind her at a light, the light changed and she didn't look up for several seconds, obviously dialing or texting. I was just about to give her a short honk because there were a few others behind be that might miss the light.

Whoosh... a car blasted through the intersection probably 75
mph. If she had pulled away from the light normally, she would be dead.

She didn't even look up from her phone until the other car was long gone. She never saw it and will never know how close she came.

I was tempted to get her attention at the next light and tell her she should pray thanks to the Lord, but she was far ahead and gone.

[snow white]

I always look before crossing an intersection. Green light means nothing. I also look both ways before crossing a one way street. If I'm pulling onto a road and someone is comming with thier blinker on I wait till I see them physically slowing down to pull out. It's the small things that can save allot of trouble

[HCountyGuy]

I’ve learned to be cautious with intersections. Not long after my son was born my wife, her sister, my son and I were waiting at one intersection and the light turned green. I started to go after my normal pause and as I approach the middle of the intersection notice out of my peripheral vision a car coming from the right, not slowing. No sooner do I register this than my wife notices, calls my name and I slam on the brakes. My car stopped on a dime and the other car blows the intersection doing at least 50-55. Middle of the day, plenty of other people who saw it.

Afterwards I pulled off to the side just up the road and my wife loses it and is shaking. I was a mixture of scared, relieved and pissed off. Every time I go by that intersection I think of it.

There’s also an intersection on my way home from my primary job site that almost always has somebody run the light by a good 3-4 seconds. I’ve made sure to exercise caution there too and have thus far been fortunate.

[snow white]

I’ve learned to be cautious with intersections. Not long after my son was born my wife, her sister, my son and I were waiting at one intersection and the light turned green. I started to go after my normal pause and as I approach the middle of the intersection notice out of my peripheral vision a car coming from the right, not slowing. No sooner do I register this than my wife notices, calls my name and I slam on the brakes. My car stopped on a dime and the other car blows the intersection doing at least 50-55. Middle of the day, plenty of other people who saw it.

This is one of my worst fears. Having my daughter in the car and be slammed by some ass hat who is drunk or on thier phone. I know I'm a good driver, its everyone else I worry about. Two or three months ago I was walking through a parkinglot. Car slams it into reverse and punches it just as we crossed behind it. I had to pick my daughter up and literally jump out of the way. By the time the car stopped and the driver realized what was going on the spot we were standing in before I jumped out of the way was under the engine block.

[UNK]

I recently pulled from a side road onto a main road. I was fully stopped and a truck headed my way had their blinker on as to turn down my road. So I went. The driver of the truck slammed on their brakes apparently something was wrong in the front end because it jerked the wheel hard to the right. 😂 I did notice from my rearview they turned their blinker off.

[Totem Polar]

My wife and I got T-boned by a van full of suspended license, career DWI drunks. Came through two red lights at 50+ and pinned us up against a building. We were maybe the 6th or 7th car coming through the intersection after our light turned green. The A-pillar intersection took the main impact; the cops later told us (in the ER) that if they had hit 18” further back, I would have been toast. Pretty much made a mockery of our lives for years: it was 4 years before my wife could blow dry her own hair again.

It was our 14th wedding anniversary, too—we were on our way back from a nice dinner.

At any rate, this is my serious face, when it comes to drunk driving.

[Trooper224]

Sometimes it's good to be lucky.

[blues]

Sometimes it's good to be lucky.

Yep. I've told this story before. Me and another agent from our Baltimore office were sent to Knoxville to work a case. On the drive there from Atlanta we were leapfrogging with a pretty young thing on the highway.

She looked into her purse for too long and ended up swerving into the retaining wall on the highway, bounced off and was immediately run over by an 18 wheeler. Her vehicle was literally crushed under it.

Anyway, long story short, we were first to get to her to render aid and because she didn't have her seat belt on, she was thrown to the passenger seat which was not crushed. She was banged up good and had glass cuts but other than that she survived. I got a call from the highway patrol the next morning to thank us for our assistance.

Awesome that she made it out...but she definitely used up one or more of her lives that day.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I recently pulled from a side road onto a main road. I was fully stopped and a truck headed my way had their blinker on as to turn down my road. So I went. The driver of the truck slammed on their brakes apparently something was wrong in the front end because it jerked the wheel hard to the right. 😂 I did notice from my rearview they turned their blinker off.

After a similar close call when I was in my late teens/early 20s, I never, ever trust the other driver's blinker. I make it a point to not pull out in front until they've started their turn.

[UNK]

After a similar close call when I was in my late teens/early 20s, I never, ever trust the other driver's blinker. I make it a point to not pull out in front until they've started their turn.

Believe me my city has got to be the champion of idiot drivers. I had plenty of room or I wouldnt have gone. His panic reaction was fun to watch.
Before my daughter started driving she would always get pannicky whenever i turned across breaks in oncoming traffic.
I always told her...well, its on your side..😂 Shes got her permit now, she did the same thing to me a few weeks ago 😂😂
From years of riding only motorcycles i developed the idea that the best defense is strong offense. Thats how I drive and taught her. Her driving skills while still on just a permit make me proud.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I always told her...well, its on your side..

Ha! I'll have to remember that one.

[Caballoflaco]

I’m sure we’ve got a few people on the board who have developed that traffic 6th sense from years of pattern observation combined with decent situational awareness that allows you to predict fairly accurately what “that sketchy fokker” is going to do before they do it.

Not that you should trust predictions over observation, but it’s a fun party trick when you’re driving with somebody who walks the world with their head up their ass and you can say, “the asshole in that xxxxx without his blinker on is about to cut across two lanes of traffic and probably turn off the the exit here, and then they do it.

[HCountyGuy]

I get honked at occasionally waiting for oncoming traffic to make a left turn when I’m trying to make a right. Had too many folks turn and go all the way in to my lane.

[Shoresy]

I’m sure we’ve got a few people on the board who have developed that traffic 6th sense from years of pattern observation combined with decent situational awareness that allows you to predict fairly accurately what “that sketchy fokker” is going to do before they do it.

Not that you should trust predictions over observation, but it’s a fun party trick when you’re driving with somebody who walks the world with their head up their ass and you can say, “the asshole in that xxxxx without his blinker on is about to cut across two lanes of traffic and probably turn off the the exit here, and then they do it.

I don't know if my sixth sense is all that well developed, but I've managed to predict things like that. For example, the land change indicator typically typically comes from watching how close someone gets to the lane line... if they're going to move, given enough time (15-30 seconds is usually enough) they'll telegraph it by wandering close to that line in the direction of their intent. It's more prevalent with people who are driving a touch aggressively (doesn't have to be much - not the individual who flies up cutting through traffic, but the one who appears to be more rushed/urgent than those around them). It's subtle, but after seeing if a several times, it's there about 80% of the time. It shows up with more passive drivers, but takes more time to do so.

Observing behavior is interesting.

[Borderland]

Albuquerque NM?

I was setting at light along side a city cop and we both watched a guy blow thru a red at 40 mph and the cop never moved. Just moved on like he didn't see it. My brother who lives there said you don't ever want to be the first one thru an intersection unless you have a death wish. Good advice.

[FrankinCA]

If I can’t see clearly on either side, three second rule ...slowly enter the intersection..yes, I have almost been T Boned..

[Maple Syrup Actual]

For about ten years I worked jobs with tons of city driving; a typical day for me would have been around 200km/120 miles, which sounds like nothing but it was all heavy traffic in and around Vancouver. Twice that I can think of I was the first person on the scene of pretty dire accidents with multiple serious injuries. I think that's all of them but I was on so many minor ones where somebody was sent to the hospital with something like a broken arm or just to get checked out because their neck hurt or they were concussed that I just lost track and now off the top of my head I don't want to swear that the two big ones I saw were the only ones I was at.

Anyway the point is that big rolling blocks of steel are dangerous as fuck and people get all kinds of chewed up when they collide, no doubt about it. I think I've said here before that I carry a tourniquet not because I think I'll ever take a bullet to an artery, but because I wouldn't be at all surprised if I found someone bleeding out in a wrecked car one day.

I'm also convinced that the number of high-speed collisions with stopped or barely-moving vehicles is much higher than it used to be, and that the speed of rear-enders has gone from around walking speed because the driver almost stopped in time, but couldn't, to around highway speed, because the driver was looking at his phone and never even tried to stop. This is backed up exclusively by my own personal subjective impression of seeing traffic evolve over a couple of decades but I would bet that there's someone with valid research somewhere to support it.

[Caballoflaco]

I'm also convinced that the number of high-speed collisions with stopped or barely-moving vehicles is much higher than it used to be, and that the speed of rear-enders has gone from around walking speed because the driver almost stopped in time, but couldn't, to around highway speed, because the driver was looking at his phone and never even tried to stop. This is backed up exclusively by my own personal subjective impression of seeing traffic evolve over a couple of decades but I would bet that there's someone with valid research somewhere to support it.

This is true, and also the reason I filter to the front (lane split) at red lights when I’m riding a motorcycle during certain traffic conditions on certain roads, even though it is quite illegal here.

I drive a lot for work and see probably 10-1 rear end collisions for every intersection or entering the roadway accident.

[Coyotesfan97]

After a similar close call when I was in my late teens/early 20s, I never, ever trust the other driver's blinker. I make it a point to not pull out in front until they've started their turn.

For some reason I always remember my Dad telling me that when I had my instructor permit. He was very adamant about waiting until you saw the other drivers tires turn.

I avoided several on duty accidents by waiting and observing traffic before proceeding. One would have been a 50+ red light runner t-boning my passenger doors. I might not have been injured to bad. My dog would have been dead.

[trailrunner]

I’m sure we’ve got a few people on the board who have developed that traffic 6th sense from years of pattern observation combined with decent situational awareness that allows you to predict fairly accurately what “that sketchy fokker” is going to do before they do it.


A long long time ago (maybe 1982), my wife (then girlfriend) and I were on a freeway in Los Angeles. I saw a blast of black smoke come from the exhaust of a full-sized pickup truck a little bit in front of me, realized that it was a diesel and that the guy was trying to accelerate to get out of some sort of situation, realized that an accident was developing, and so I promptly changed lanes to avoid that situation. I did all of that in a fraction of a second, and it was a good thing, because cars and trucks started going sideways at 60 mph. If I had done nothing, I would've plowed right into that carnage. I told my wife that I saw the entire thing unfold in that split second. Another part of why I was able to avoid the situation is that I always maintain good situational awareness of other cars, including who is on my left side, who is on my right side, in front, behind, and so on. So when that situation developed, I knew I had a way out. And that's also why the most annoying thing a driver can do to me is to drive at the same speed as me, but hang out just behind me in the adjacent lane in my blind spot. Either pass me, or fall back.




For some reason I always remember my Dad telling me that when I had my instructor permit. He was very adamant about waiting until you saw the other drivers tires turn.


I still remember exactly where I was when my dad told me that.

[Nephrology]

I'm also convinced that the number of high-speed collisions with stopped or barely-moving vehicles is much higher than it used to be, and that the speed of rear-enders has gone from around walking speed because the driver almost stopped in time, but couldn't, to around highway speed, because the driver was looking at his phone and never even tried to stop. This is backed up exclusively by my own personal subjective impression of seeing traffic evolve over a couple of decades but I would bet that there's someone with valid research somewhere to support it.

I've never been at-fault in an accident but have been rear-ended three times in the last 5 years. The last two times, the other vehicles were both at highway speeds or close to it. First time the Jeep swerved at least so they glanced off my rear bumper. Second time an older F150 plowed into a Toyota Sienna which then plowed into me. Annihilated my car even with a 4500lb minivan buffer. edit: All 3 times, I was either at or coming to a complete stop.

Cars are dangerous. I take driving very seriously.

[Caballoflaco]

And that's also why the most annoying thing a driver can do to me is to drive at the same speed as me, but hang out just behind me in the adjacent lane in my blind spot. Either pass me, or fall back.
.

Dude. Yes. That shit gives me the ragies.

It’s an oft discussed topic in the world of motorcycling. The general consensus is that humans are stupid herd animals and many people devote so little cognizant thought to driving that they subconsciously latch onto other drivers so they can maintain speed by simply keeping the other vehicle in their peripheral vision.

[Jim Watson]

No end to the accounts:
My best friend and his wife were killed when a truck driver ran a stop sign. Kenworth vs MG, no chance. The truck driver was very traditional... running long and fast on bennies. The company paid a large settlement to their families but that is no help.

Mike Dillon wrote that he had lost four friends to red light runners and was cautious about starting off.

I have formed the habit of looking in the mirror as I apply brakes when first up to a red light. I have had to run the light to keep from being rear ended.

[MistWolf]

A while back, my son T boned a guy who blew through an intersection at well over 100 mph. The guy was running from the cops. I'm grateful my son T boned him, not the other way around. If the guy had T boned my son, it would have been on the left side and my son was driving a very small car.

When the cops stopped to make sure my son was ok, my son said "I'm good. Just happy to do my civic duty and stop the bad guy for ya!"

[JRB]

I drive with the assumption that everyone else on the road will try to kill me when they get the chance. I also assume that I'm completely invisible to every other driver on the road.
That's kept me out of trouble for the past 20-someodd years I've been driving.



Albuquerque NM?

I was setting at light along side a city cop and we both watched a guy blow thru a red at 40 mph and the cop never moved. Just moved on like he didn't see it. My brother who lives there said you don't ever want to be the first one thru an intersection unless you have a death wish. Good advice.

Sounds about right for this neck of the woods. Given how APD's been skull dragged as an entire dept over dumb shit, I can't blame officers that stick exclusively to clearing calls for service and do nothing else. It's sad, and I have moral issues with it, but I understand.

[RoyGBiv]

Last week I was driving along a busy 30mph street (main artery through a business district). Traffic in front of me stops suddenly and I had to hit the breaks pretty hard, but stopped with about a car length (bit less) from the car in front of me. I start hearing the intermittent screeching of ABS activated wheel lock behind me and immediately let go of the brake, rolled up close to the car in front and held the brake down as hard as I could. When I looked in the rear view, the guy behind me was wide-eyed and so close it looked like his front bumper had to be in my trunk. Had to be inches, max.

On the motorcycle, I leave it in gear at red lights and scan my mirror frequently, especially when stopped to turn left, extra-especially if it's not a designated left turn lane. Cell phone idiots are everywhere.

[Doc_Glock]

I'm also convinced that the number of high-speed collisions with stopped or barely-moving vehicles is much higher than it used to be, and that the speed of rear-enders has gone from around walking speed because the driver almost stopped in time, but couldn't, to around highway speed, because the driver was looking at his phone and never even tried to stop. This is backed up exclusively by my own personal subjective impression of seeing traffic evolve over a couple of decades but I would bet that there's someone with valid research somewhere to support it.

I have only driven in Canada one time (Michigan to Toronto) and the number of drivers who just pulled out in front of me at the last minute was astounding.

Is this a Canadian thing? In the US, we usually try to merge/turn and accelerate so as to not require the traffic coming up from behind to slow in the least.

[JAD]

I recently pulled from a side road onto a main road. I was fully stopped and a truck headed my way had their blinker on as to turn down my road. So I went. The driver of the truck slammed on their brakes apparently something was wrong in the front end because it jerked the wheel hard to the right. [emoji23] I did notice from my rearview they turned their blinker off.

I trust a blinker about as much as a Chinese root cause investigation.

[JAD]

This is true, and also the reason I filter to the front (lane split) at red lights when I’m riding a motorcycle during certain traffic conditions on certain roads, even though it is quite illegal here..

I understand your thinking here and would
be real worried about my rear end on a bike too. What do you do when the light turns green? Do you cut in front, or do you try to merge behind, or do you hang out until everybody is gone through?

[NEPAKevin]

Awesome that she made it out...but she definitely used up one or more of her lives that day.

I work for a tow company and while we have had numerous gruesome wrecks, there are a few that stick out. One that happened around when I first started that the old guys always talked about involved a Trans-am with three people in it, two guys in the front and a girl passed out in the back. They went flying around a blind turn as a truck-trailer was turning across Rt-715 to go into the old Roadway terminal. The two guys up front were decapitated as the car went under the trailer but the girl in back who was lying on her side avoided the worst of it and lived.

[Bio]

Ealrier this year I had a guy run right through a red light while I was passing though the intersection on the green. Didn't even slow down, hit me at about 40 mph. I picked up the movement just in time to slow down enough that he hit the front right corner at the wheel instead of a t-bone. He deflected and hit a bank, of all things. My ride was still totalled, but I was uninjured.

I've always tried to check at intersections, now I make sure I do, twice. Saved me from the exact same thing happening a couple months later at the same stinking intersection.

[Malamute]

On the motorcycle, I leave it in gear at red lights and scan my mirror frequently, especially when stopped to turn left, extra-especially if it's not a designated left turn lane. Cell phone idiots are everywhere.

Im absolutely flabbergasted when i see people on motorcycles sitting at lights and are obviously in neutral, and obviously not paying the least bit of attention to whats going on around them, sitting with arms crossed, talking to passenger, looking around at whatever besides traffic.

Im looking into getting a decent dashcam for the bike, with rear facing camera also. Ive had several people do what looked like very deliberate attempts to crowd me out of my lane or turn into me when I was right in front of them. The very aggressive tailgaters are also very dangerous.

[Caballoflaco]

On the motorcycle, I leave it in gear at red lights and scan my mirror frequently, especially when stopped to turn left, extra-especially if it's not a designated left turn lane. Cell phone idiots are everywhere.

The other day I had to tow a side by side ATV for work in a trailer that put the grill and headlights just slightly higher than the tailgate of my truck. I’m so used to checking my mirrors as I slow to a stop that I nearly shit myself a couple of times when I did my mirror check and for half a second it looked like somebody was about to give me the ‘ol smasho.


I understand your thinking here and would
be real worried about my rear end on a bike too. What do you do when the light turns green? Do you cut in front, or do you try to merge behind, or do you hang out until everybody is gone through?

Filtering isn’t a thing here so I always just pull all the way to the front since there isn’t a line of motorcycles. Because I can’t text and ride as soon as the light is green and the intersection is clear I accelerate with alacrity, but not recklessly and then just merge back into a lane usually in front of everybody else. If somebody tries to make it a race I just fall in behind them. It’s the same way motorcyclists do it in the rest of the world, except here and in Canada. It’s funny I’ve had Californians pull to the side to give me room here in Alabama where it’s not legal just because they’re so used to doing it there.

Also, these days it’s not uncommon for people to not even know I’m there between the lanes because they’re all on their phones. I think I’ve had two people give me an angry horn blow, but most folks don’t seem to care.

[NEPAKevin]

[thread-drift] When PA first shut down for the COVID, there was hardly anyone on the roads and it was kind of nice. I noticed some were taking advantage of the open roads and driving faster, straitening out the curves, that kind of thing, which didn't bother me as most of them seemed to know how to drive. It was almost like a perk to being an "essential worker." But when things started opening up, there was this subset of bad drivers that emerged who weren't driving fast because they liked to drive fast but were driving fast because they were in panic mode, cutting corners, blowing lights and stop signs, driving on the wrong side of the road, etc. Then another emerged that would stop in the middle of the road or intersection for no apparent reason and sit there in kind of a catatonic state. I'm surprised that we didn't get more wrecks from these two groups intersecting. [/thread-drift]

[Coyotesfan97]

Sounds about right for this neck of the woods. Given how APD's been skull dragged as an entire dept over dumb shit, I can't blame officers that stick exclusively to clearing calls for service and do nothing else. It's sad, and I have moral issues with it, but I understand.

Or he had the same luck I always did in patrol. You get dispatched to a priority call like a family fight where lights/siren aren’t an option but breaking for a traffic stop isn’t an option. You just have to shrug and wave goodbye to the moving ticket.

[JRB]

Or he had the same luck I always did in patrol. You get dispatched to a priority call like a family fight where lights/siren aren’t an option but breaking for a traffic stop isn’t an option. You just have to shrug and wave goodbye to the moving ticket.

I feel for you, dude.

On my first ridealong with a close friend in APD, he'd pulled over a lady in an old Expedition for turning right at a red light *from the left turn lane* with no less than 10 children under the age of 7-8 years old inside, not a single seatbelt or car seat to be seen. Expired plate too of course.
He was running her stuff in the car and we were both incredulous about it, and he was getting started on throwing a bunch of tickets at her - then dispatch reported an armed robbery with shots fired and he was the closest unit. He handed her shit back and told her it was her lucky day because some asshole robbed someone else up the street and he didn't have time to write her the 14 tickets she deserved.

[Coyotesfan97]

I feel for you, dude.

On my first ridealong with a close friend in APD, he'd pulled over a lady in an old Expedition for turning right at a red light *from the left turn lane* with no less than 10 children under the age of 7-8 years old inside, not a single seatbelt or car seat to be seen. Expired plate too of course.
He was running her stuff in the car and we were both incredulous about it, and he was getting started on throwing a bunch of tickets at her - then dispatch reported an armed robbery with shots fired and he was the closest unit. He handed her shit back and told her it was her lucky day because some asshole robbed someone else up the street and he didn't have time to write her the 14 tickets she deserved.

Oh the details are different but I’ve been there done that.

[Mystery]

After quite a few near hits and one car rear ending my vehicle, I came to conclusion that it is safer to go through light that's turning red than driving from stop when light turns green.

[mmc45414]

I have been meaning to post in this thread since it started, because it was the same time that I had and experience that could have ended much differently. I am a member of a gun club that is about 15-20mi away, and the most direct route is a mix of road types, some of it pleasant. Back when this thread started I was furloughed, and was doing a lot of shooting, and had gone to a Steel Challenge match. I typically drive my truck to go shooting, since it is kind of a mobile gear box and rolling tool kit, but if I am going to an organized even, like this or skeet when I only need my gun and personal gear I take the car.

So I am on my way home, a little bit enjoying my enjoyable (frisky) car, and get caught at a light on the portion of the drive that is surface level highway. Light changes and I start to maybe leave a little aggressively, but reverted back to my more cautious approach for unknown reasons, and sonofabitch somebody blows that light going at least 70mph. Only a slightly larger car, but had I taken that kind of a hit in the driver's side of my little Focus a few of you might be wondering why MMc don't post here any more.

So ~8mo later last night I am coming home from the same gun club, and at another nearby intersection, another car blows a light at, and I am not exaggerating, 65-75mph (not a close call, I was several cars back).


Given how APD's been skull dragged as an entire dept over dumb shit, I can't blame officers that stick exclusively to clearing calls for service and do nothing else.
And I think there is no coincidence to the fact that these two events occurred on my way home from the gun club, because both times it was in an area where the police are kept busy enough they do not have time left for much traffic enforcement. This in a community that was very aggressive about using photo enforcement, and it has come under challenge. I think they probably would be better off focusing that program on red lights rather than speed. That said, the only one I ever got was for a red light violation, but it was me going right on red without coming to enough of a stop to satisfy the computer.


I noticed some were taking advantage of the open roads and driving faster, straitening out the curves, that kind of thing, which didn't bother me as most of them seemed to know how to drive. ... But when things started opening up, there was this subset of bad drivers that emerged who weren't driving fast because they liked to drive fast but were driving fast because they were in panic mode, cutting corners, blowing lights and stop signs, driving on the wrong side of the road, etc.
Recent news story that here in Ohio injury accidents were up in a year when miles traveled (probably estimated from tax revenue) were down.

[DDTSGM]

Doesn't everybody know - look left, look right, look left again, look right again before you cross that lane?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have only driven in Canada one time (Michigan to Toronto) and the number of drivers who just pulled out in front of me at the last minute was astounding.

Is this a Canadian thing? In the US, we usually try to merge/turn and accelerate so as to not require the traffic coming up from behind to slow in the least.

There's a lot of drivers in Canada who have been Canadian for about twenty minutes. Vancouver was full of drivers who'd exclusively driven around Shanghai before moving here. The things they did in traffic were truly mind-boggling.

No idea what the problem with Toronto is about...they're about three times further away from me than Chicago is from Abilene.

[JAD]

There's a lot of drivers in Canada who have been Canadian for about twenty minutes. Vancouver was full of drivers who'd exclusively driven around Shanghai before moving here. The things they did in traffic were truly mind-boggling.

No idea what the problem with Toronto is about...they're about three times further away from me than Chicago is from Abilene.

My experience with BC matches that testimony. It’s like Nanjing with good coffee.

[DC_P]

I was tempted to get her attention at the next light and tell her she should pray thanks to the Lord, but she was far ahead and gone.

I am glad you never got the chance to tell her that looking at her phone while driving did something beneficial :rolleyes:

[Stephanie B]

A few years ago, I came up to a four-way. There was a car approaching from the right, which seemed to be coming at a rather high rate of speed. In a 30MPH zone, the driver blew through the intersection at about 50mph or so, with musical accompaniment from the horn of my car, which I began blowing when the other car was almost on the intersection.

On the other hand, I damn near got hit at a three-way when I pulled out one morning. it was a road that I took every day to work and every day, for years, there never was another vehicle coming. I was sure that I looked, but I probably saw what I expected to see instead of what was there.

[Half Moon]

Worst I've had happen was in Portland. I'm was on a small 35 mph side street, stopped at a red light, where it intersects a major road. Heavy traffic flowing across the intersection. In my rear view I see a pick up approaching at probably 70 mph and it ain't slowing down. I've got nowhere to go. The pick up driver finally wakes up, smokes all four tires, and ends up stopped inches from my bumper. And they start honking their horn, shouting, and flipping ME off. Which trust me if I'd had anywhere to go I'd have got out of their way post haste when I saw them approach at ramming speed...

[Darth_Uno]

My dad always said don't trust red lights, and don't trust blinkers. Years before I was born he hit and almost killed a kid on a motorcycle who ran a red light (Dad was in a Silverado dually).

My previous 4runner was totaled when a lady went straight through a turn lane.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

My experience with BC matches that testimony. It’s like Nanjing with good coffee.

It's surreal and you're supposed to pretend it's not happening on account of how noticing it is racist. But the reality is pretty simple: there's no racial component to being a skilled driver, as far as I know...but how anyone could possibly expect people from a place with essentially no standardized driving rules to come here and conform to our largely unwritten ruleset, I have no idea. So of course that doesn't happen. But the stuff you see in Vancouver is wild. I have personally witnessed the following:

A brand new S600 slowly (like half of walking speed) driven halfway into an intersection where all traffic was stopped for an ambulance, blocking the ambulance, which was leaning on the stinger trying to get them to move...the S600, which had a completely empty spot behind it, eventually moved forward about another ten feet, then stopped. The ambulance kept hitting the stinger in an attempt to get the mercedes a little further forward so they could move behind it easily, but gave up and began to try to maneuver around behind it. That was the exact amount of time needed for the driver to find reverse, which they rammed it into at last, and stomped on the gas, plowing into the ambulance. I watched it all, the blank confusion of the driver staring at the stopped ambulance, the ten seconds to figure out reverse while staring at the dash, the max application of gas with no check to see what was back there...just nuts.

A brand new A8 driving down a two-lane (like one each way) road which went in front of a mall, stopping. The driver and passengers got out, and went into the mall. Vehicles behind honked frantically, which was clearly unnerving to the driver who hastened away awkwardly with the kids.

A brand new Maserati of some kind, I don't know the models, driven at walking pace into a parking lot where it was carefully placed, also at walking speed, across about five parking spots, before the driver stomped on the gas and crashed it into about a dozen parked cars and eventually a traditional chinese medicine shop.

A Porsche Panamera backed out of a parking lot space, over a foot-high curb and into cross-traffic where it hit several vehicles and stopped after hitting a heavy concrete garbage can on the far side of the road, then driving away like nothing had happened.

I could go on like this for fifty pages. Six figure cars, often with four figure horsepower, driven by extremely wealthy people, mostly from Shanghai, who have no experience driving and do stuff that only someone who is used to being very powerful and basically immune to prosecution, but who is literally driving for the first time, as a forty or fifty year old. Or, if they've driven before, it was in Shanghai, but chances are there, they had a driver and rode in the back of a Maybach.

It's absolutely insane. Vancouver is the luxury car capital of North America, and that's who the buyers are, so you see these ferrarris and lamborghinis and stuff all the time, but they're driven by people who this could be the first car they've ever driven. Or by kids, often you see teenage kids with Audi R8s and Huracans and all kinds of insanity. The traffic consequences are utterly bananas.

But if you notice, that's racist, so everybody pretends that nothing is wrong.

[Joe in PNG]

I could go on like this for fifty pages. Six figure cars, often with four figure horsepower, driven by extremely wealthy people, mostly from Shanghai, who have no experience driving and do stuff that only someone who is used to being very powerful and basically immune to prosecution, but who is literally driving for the first time, as a forty or fifty year old. Or, if they've driven before, it was in Shanghai, but chances are there, they had a driver and rode in the back of a Maybach.

It's absolutely insane. Vancouver is the luxury car capital of North America, and that's who the buyers are, so you see these ferrarris and lamborghinis and stuff all the time, but they're driven by people who this could be the first car they've ever driven. Or by kids, often you see teenage kids with Audi R8s and Huracans and all kinds of insanity. The traffic consequences are utterly bananas.

But if you notice, that's racist, so everybody pretends that nothing is wrong.

People suddenly in the money buying the biggest, baddest, fastest car they can get, then immediately wrecking it is not a new thing. A lot of Shelby's 427 Cobras returned to the factory wrecked on trailers (Bill Cosby's 200MPH routine comes to mind), and how many retirees who used to ride in the 60's become organ doners because they thought a big Harley was the way to get back into motorcycles after 50 years of not riding.

But add someone who's not ever really driven before? Man, that's scary.

[Borderland]

I know a guy who bought a 1200 Sporty and had never had a motorcycle. He took a demo out for a trial ride and dropped it. Dealer wasn't too happy. He said no problem, I'll make it right when I buy it. :D

A friend who was with him told me the story. He felt bad because he talked the guy into buying a Harley.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

People suddenly in the money buying the biggest, baddest, fastest car they can get, then immediately wrecking it is not a new thing. A lot of Shelby's 427 Cobras returned to the factory wrecked on trailers (Bill Cosby's 200MPH routine comes to mind), and how many retirees who used to ride in the 60's become organ doners because they thought a big Harley was the way to get back into motorcycles after 50 years of not riding.

But add someone who's not ever really driven before? Man, that's scary.

Yeah, I can't honestly fault people for buying whatever they can afford. There's tons and tons of new China multimillionaires trying to get money out of that country and in Canada it's extremely easy to buy real estate, plus we offered money laundering on a massive scale, so naturally that happened. It's perfectly rational self-interested decision-making, which is exactly what I would do. So I don't blame people for coming, and buying, and doing.

But no question about it, the knock-on effects of opening that city to global money markets in a really overt way, killed a bunch of people and ruined uncountable numbers of lives. Traffic is insane as mentioned. Plus the social costs of unavailable housing...homelessness is completely out of control. A thousand people a year fatally overdose there now. If you weren't in the real estate market ten years ago in Vancouver, now it's basically "hope your parents own, and die." Locals are like local Haitians, living in a resort town for rich Americans. You can't really afford anything and the prices aren't connected to local wages at all so there's no brake on anything.

For perspective...

Seattle median household income is about $93,500/year.
Vancouver median household income in USD is about 57,600/year.

Average home price in Seattle is around $800,000.
Average home price in Vancouver is around $1,260,000.

That's what happens when you decouple a necessarily local market - housing - from local income. I left.

[Joe in PNG]

It's something I noticed myself in Vancouver at the end of my Alaskan cruse in 2019- junkies, homeless, traffic, and a general dinginess.
We took a city tour from the cruise ship to our airport hotel, and it's the first time I've ever seen people shooting up in public during the day.

I was shocked, and remember I've spent decades in a third world country and work with homeless people when in the USA.

Heck, I'll take the bad, narrow roads and half drunk, half exhausted PNG traffic, or even the aged, nearly blind Yankees of Central Florida over what you have.

[Nephrology]

Drivers here in Denver are mong the worst I've ever seen. Previously had never been in an accident, when I moved here I was rear ended 3x within 3 years, each time while at or almost at a complete stop (no sudden braking). Have also had several red light close calls. Has totally changed my driving style I am a much more conservative and defensive driver than I was before moving here.

[Borderland]

Yeah, I can't honestly fault people for buying whatever they can afford. There's tons and tons of new China multimillionaires trying to get money out of that country and in Canada it's extremely easy to buy real estate, plus we offered money laundering on a massive scale, so naturally that happened. It's perfectly rational self-interested decision-making, which is exactly what I would do. So I don't blame people for coming, and buying, and doing.

But no question about it, the knock-on effects of opening that city to global money markets in a really overt way, killed a bunch of people and ruined uncountable numbers of lives. Traffic is insane as mentioned. Plus the social costs of unavailable housing...homelessness is completely out of control. A thousand people a year fatally overdose there now. If you weren't in the real estate market ten years ago in Vancouver, now it's basically "hope your parents own, and die." Locals are like local Haitians, living in a resort town for rich Americans. You can't really afford anything and the prices aren't connected to local wages at all so there's no brake on anything.

For perspective...

Seattle median household income is about $93,500/year.
Vancouver median household income in USD is about 57,600/year.

Average home price in Seattle is around $800,000.
Average home price in Vancouver is around $1,260,000.

That's what happens when you decouple a necessarily local market - housing - from local income. I left.

I had a British friend years ago that was trying to immigrate to the US. She was living in Vancouver and came to Seattle frequently. She became a Canadian citizen eventually, but was never able to immigrate to the US. Apparently, it was much easier to immigrate to Canada at the time than to immigrate to the US. At least that's what she told me.

I used to see some pretty expensive sports cars racing along I-5 at high rates of speed (100 mph plus) with Canadian plates. Ferraris and Lambos, stuff like that, getting yuge tickets after the SP stops them. Generally, the high rollers where I live are old guys with Corvettes and they don't race those on I-5.

We're only about an hour from the border.

[mmc45414]

For perspective...
Average home price in Seattle is around $800,000.
Average home price in Vancouver is around $1,260,000.
I wondered about that, just from watching HGTV...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

If they showed it on HGTV, it was probably several million...a million dollar house in Vancouver is a teardown wreck on a busy road. The 1.25mm average would have to include apartments, I would think.

There used to be a website based in Vancouver called "crack shack or mansion" and they would show pictures of hoses and you had to decide which was an actual crack house, and which was a $1-2 million dollar listing.

But that was ten years ago, before the prices got REALLY crazy.

[Caballoflaco]

If they showed it on HGTV, it was probably several million...a million dollar house in Vancouver is a teardown wreck on a busy road. The 1.25mm average would have to include apartments, I would think.

There used to be a website based in Vancouver called "crack shack or mansion" and they would show pictures of hoses and you had to decide which was an actual crack house, and which was a $1-2 million dollar listing.

But that was ten years ago, before the prices got REALLY crazy.

Man, that’s cyberpunk dystopia pricing.

[Joe in PNG]

Man, that’s cyberpunk dystopia pricing.

We're pretty much at Cyberpunk Dystopia already.

[mmc45414]

If they showed it on HGTV, it was probably several million...a million dollar house in Vancouver is a teardown wreck on a busy road.
I like watching some of those shows to see what they do with some of the properties, but hardly ever do because of the personalities involved. Since I know going in I am going to hate one of the spouses, typically the one who insists they are not going to leave the neighborhood but wants a $800k upgrade on a $80k budget, I just don't watch.


But that was ten years ago, before the prices got REALLY crazy.
Even in a small town like here (Dayton, OH) some stuff seems just crazy in the neighborhoods that have caught traction for restoration. I just ain't gonna spend $200-$400k if I have to compete for street parking. And it is all about location, you can still buy a nice house in the same city for $50k, just not where ya wanna live.


There used to be a website based in Vancouver called "crack shack or mansion" and they would show pictures of hoses and you had to decide which was an actual crack house, and which was a $1-2 million dollar listing.
Our first house did a crack house transition. We bought it cheap, made significant improvements, and sold it for enough to pay ourselves $2-3hr for the work we did. The people we sold to lived there for some time, made a few more improvements, but when they left (for whatever reason) it became a crack house. Then somebody bought it who brought it back to being way better than we ever had it, but it is still in an undesirable neighborhood.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

You guys have houses for $400 grand???

A buddy of mine bought in Vancouver about two years ago. It's a townhouse, built in about 1970, in a complex that's slowly deteriorating as pretty much every 50 year old townhouse complex is. He paid 875. It's now worth about 1.

I sold my one bedroom apartment in a 1978 wooden low-rise for half a million bucks when I left, at about the same time.

I did fine on the whole situation because I bought when that one bedroom apartment could still be had for under 300,000. But for basically anyone who didn't buy ten years ago, unless you can afford the mortgage payments on a million dollar loan, you have no chance at anything but an apartment, and even those aren't cheap. My little sister lives there. She never expects to own anything. The only friend I have who has bought in the last 6-7 years is the townhouse guy. He's a welder and works about 80 hours a week to afford it. His wife is from a rich Japanese family and helps. It's ridiculous.

Vancouver is the example I use of how you can destroy a city in pretty short order with insufficient control over foreign investment.

[Half Moon]

I had a British friend years ago that was trying to immigrate to the US. She was living in Vancouver and came to Seattle frequently. She became a Canadian citizen eventually, but was never able to immigrate to the US. Apparently, it was much easier to immigrate to Canada at the time than to immigrate to the US. At least that's what she told me.

I used to see some pretty expensive sports cars racing along I-5 at high rates of speed (100 mph plus) with Canadian plates. Ferraris and Lambos, stuff like that, getting yuge tickets after the SP stops them. Generally, the high rollers where I live are old guys with Corvettes and they don't race those on I-5.

We're only about an hour from the border.

Try I-5 in Northern California. Same old guys, same Corvettes, but for the right trigger they'll try to race. Back when the Saleen Mustang was my daily, you'd see a Corvette in the rear view and know the mating dance was about to start: corvette on the rear bumper, corvette pulling alongside, corvette dropping back a little, corvette launching then dropping back and giving a puzzled look, repeat a couple times before they realize you're not going to play. Happened often enough Saleen versus Vette was a definite thing...

[mmc45414]

You guys have houses for $400 grand???
Sometimes I have to remember I live where my buying power is strong, part of the reason I like it. People bitch about the weather, and it is shitty in the winter, but you have to give up a lot to move away.

[Bio]

You guys have houses for $400 grand???

A buddy of mine bought in Vancouver about two years ago. It's a townhouse, built in about 1970, in a complex that's slowly deteriorating as pretty much every 50 year old townhouse complex is. He paid 875. It's now worth about 1.

I sold my one bedroom apartment in a 1978 wooden low-rise for half a million bucks when I left, at about the same time.

I did fine on the whole situation because I bought when that one bedroom apartment could still be had for under 300,000. But for basically anyone who didn't buy ten years ago, unless you can afford the mortgage payments on a million dollar loan, you have no chance at anything but an apartment, and even those aren't cheap. My little sister lives there. She never expects to own anything. The only friend I have who has bought in the last 6-7 years is the townhouse guy. He's a welder and works about 80 hours a week to afford it. His wife is from a rich Japanese family and helps. It's ridiculous.

Vancouver is the example I use of how you can destroy a city in pretty short order with insufficient control over foreign investment.

Oh, man. That sounds like hell. In the nice neighborhood I'm in, you get 2000 square foot brick houses in good condition in small urban lots for that ballpark. I know, location, location, location, but sweet Jesus. I think for a million bucks I could get a small castle here.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

It's pretty fucked.

Here's a pretty typical house there:

https://www.rew.ca/properties/3184863/312-e-king-edward-avenue-vancouver-bc

The street it's on is a major artery and the neighborhood is not particularly nice. It's about a block off another major arterial road, so huge intersection.

It will most likely sell for about 1.7 million. Detached homes typically list for around 15% below sale price.

Again this is a city with a median household income of under $60,000 US.

The woman who my wife used to be the EA to, a doctor in charge of a major government ministry, and her lawyer husband, recently moved away because they couldn't afford to buy a house there.

I forget that it's not common knowledge worldwide. But it's San Francisco real estate prices, with Boise Idaho income levels.

The whole market is driven by money from mainland China. It's the largest industry in the province: selling real estate to the Chinese. That's not hyperbole, that's actually the largest industry. It essentially destroyed the province. Nobody would intervene because admitting it was even happening was seen as racist, and Canadian state media denied it was happening for many years, running fake articles about how the racist misinformation about Vancouver real estate had been debunked again and again.

But eventually even state media had no choice but to pivot around on the issue, after a series of inquiries made the information totally unavoidable.

Fifteen years too late to stop it, of course.

[Joe in PNG]

On Zillow right now, and $1.6 mil is enough to get you a 3bd/3bath 1750sq ft ocean front duplex on Sanibel Island.

And that's Covid Mass Exodus pricing.

[mmc45414]

Sanibel Island.

No state income tax...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[Joe in PNG]

No state income tax...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

But sales and property taxes.