How to get a Reliable Hard Use 1911?

[GlorifiedMailman]

After having bought and sold several 1911's during my life, none have stuck out to me as being truly reliable. All haven't been able to go more than 1k rounds without a stoppage, and certainly none ever met the 2k round challenge. The 1911's I have owned have all been Colts and Springfields, so not complete junk brands. I even had one of the Colts worked over by what was supposed to be an experienced 1911 'smith, a Marine armorer from Vietnam. I shoot them amazingly, and I have a huge cache/reloading components of .45 Auto, so I really would love to have a truly reliable 1911 (one that can at least go 1k rounds without a stoppage, and preferably able to meet the 2k challenge consistently). I tend to abide by DocGKR's and the late ToddG's standards for reliability with a duty/carry pistol.

My question is, what does it take to get a stone-cold reliable (at least 2k MRBS) 1911 for serious use these days? So far the best info I've gotten is from reading DocGKR, who states you're going to spend $2500+ and have the pistol worked over by a master class 1911 gunsmith (not just an armorer). He listed several of these expert gunsmiths (Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers), but it looks like none of these individuals are working on 1911s themselves right now (or have passed).

What base gun should I start with, and who would I be able to send it off to? Assuming price is no object. I really want a reliable 1911 from the get-go, even if I have to send it off as soon as I get it to have a successful 1-2k round vetting period when I get it back.

[wvincent]

Mars THUG should meet your needs.
http://www.marsguns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index

[GlorifiedMailman]

Mars THUG should meet your needs.
http://www.marsguns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index

Thanks. I've never heard of Mars Armament. I'll look into them. Anyone know if they have any government contracts or anything?
______________
And on another note, I see Cylinder and Slide (Bill Laughridge's company, a pistolsmith who DocGKR recommends) has a custom Springfield 1911 in stock. I wonder if that would meet DocGKR's recommendations for a hard-use 1911 and if it would be suitable for hard use right out of the box?

[Sero Sed Serio]

Mars THUG should meet your needs.
http://www.marsguns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index

Is the THUG still available as an out-the-door package? I don’t see it listed on the MARS website, but have long coveted the treatment on a Colt...

[theJanitor]

There are a couple of THUGS on the board. I’m on the list for one for one soon. My best friend has two, and they define a working, hard use pistol

I’ve got a couple that would have easily passed 2000 rounds if I was counting. I would guess my Yost-Bonitz and my Frank Glenn builds colts are better than my glocks

[GlorifiedMailman]

I can't find anything on their site about the MARS treatment either. Do they still do this, and would they do this on a new production 70 series Colt (or Springfield Mil Spec, for that matter)?

[secondstoryguy]

I met Steve from MARS back about 20 years ago when he was working in AZ. His guns were solid builds back then and I'm sure they have only gotten better. The Cylinder and Slide's Trident is a great 1911 too, albeit expensive for what is essentially a gussied up Springfield 1911.

[GlorifiedMailman]

I met Steve from MARS back about 20 years ago when he was working in AZ. His guns were solid builds back then and I'm sure they have only gotten better. The Cylinder and Slide's Trident is a great 1911 too, albeit expensive for what is essentially a gussied up Springfield 1911.

I've been interested in the Trident for a good 12 years now, but I tend to agree. However, if it is as duty/carry-use reliable out of the box as a 1911 sent off to a top-tier pistolsmith would be, I'd consider dropping the money for it. My absolute #1 concern is being reliable enough for carry/duty, specifically that meets the late ToddG's criteria of 2,000 rounds without a stoppage/malfunction to be considered reliable enough for serious use.

[theJanitor]

I've been interested in the Trident for a good 12 years now, but I tend to agree. However, if it is as duty/carry-use reliable out of the box as a 1911 sent off to a top-tier pistolsmith would be, I'd consider dropping the money for it. My absolute #1 concern is being reliable enough for carry/duty, specifically that meets the late ToddG's criteria of 2,000 rounds without a stoppage/malfunction to be considered reliable enough for serious use.

The trident was solid. With a “mission-specific” spec. My buddy sold his last year, with the special finish option. If it had checkering over stippling, I would have bought it. But that wouldn’t be a trident if it wasn’t stippled

[stinx]

I can't find anything on their site about the MARS treatment either. Do they still do this, and would they do this on a new production 70 series Colt (or Springfield Mil Spec, for that matter)?

It in the section titled special. $1600 on you supplied Colt.

[JHC]

My Sams full build .45 runs and runs with minimum TLC like one of my Glocks. Dave Sams.

My Sams tuned 9mm Operator is almost, not quite, almost as reliable. But . . . 9mm one inch 50 yard gun with a very heavy slide to work.

My Wilson CQB Elite .45 seems the equal to the Sams gun for running. I realize there are some with bad luck with those semi-customs.

I'm fortunate to have had two TRPs and an LB Operator that run like the customs.

A close friend just got a Colt worked over by Derr Precision and it is spectacular. Greg Derr is on my short list for getting work done.

[farscott]

The issue that the OP is going to have is that any smith with a well-earned reputation for building 1911-pattern pistols that run also has an order book that extends out in years. Chuck Rogers, Ned Christiansen, Steve Morrison, John Harrison, etc. are all booked to at least 2025 or have closed order books. David Sams is only a year right now, but his forte is pure accuracy.

The OP might be better off finding a pre-owned pistol from one of the masters.

[Maca]

Reach out to Karl Sokol (chestnut mountain sports). He will build you exactly what you are looking for. He is one of the better 1911 builders still in business.

[MGW]

With 1911’s price range is important. Nighthawk will get you into a gun that will run and they will stand behind it. Call them. Tell them what you want and they’ll point you in the right direction.

Chambers Custom will too. You’ll pay double and wait times are very long. His working man guns are outstanding (no first hand experience).

[JHC]

The issue that the OP is going to have is that any smith with a well-earned reputation for building 1911-pattern pistols that run also has an order book that extends out in years. Chuck Rogers, Ned Christiansen, Steve Morrison, John Harrison, etc. are all booked to at least 2025 or have closed order books. David Sams is only a year right now, but his forte is pure accuracy.

The OP might be better off finding a pre-owned pistol from one of the masters.

Agree on Sams claim to fame. I have a strong feeling he knows how to make one run and run albeit my sample size is tiny. Kevin B is expecting a TRP back from him with the full treatment in a few months. Can't wait for that one! Dave S is of the opinion that it is the precise fitting of premium "hard use" components that deliver a long term reliable and persistently accurate pistol. And for myself, having glimpsed this promised land, I only want both reliability and precision. It's hard to give up the accuracy once it's been tasted.

Scoring something nice second hand sounds pretty solid.

[mhl6493]

I have wondered the same thing, OP. I shoot a 1911 more accurately than anything else I own, but I haven't found one yet that I felt gave me rock-solid reliability. Following this thread, and looking forward to the suggestions!

[JTQ]

In our 2,000 round challenge thread BLR, ToddG, and kmartphoto each show a 1911 on the same page

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9-2-000-Round-Challenge&p=82718&highlight=wilson#post82718

Bill's was a Wilson CQB with 2,800+ rounds of moly coated lead semi-wadcutters

Todd's was his Springfield Warren Tactical in 9mm

kmartphoto's was a Chris James gun

[Robinson]

Of all the 1911s I currently own, none has ever had a single malfunction. Now, I will qualify that by admitting that some of them have much higher round counts than others. The ones with the highest round counts were built by the Colt Custom Shop and have gone many thousands of rounds with no stoppages or malfunctions of any kind.

My current carry gun is somewhat newer and will probably never have a high round count because it has an alloy frame. But still, it has not malfunctioned once during the vetting process.

Heck I even put a Springfield Armory 9mm gun through the 2K challenge a few years ago and it passed with flying colors (documented somewhere in that thread). Soon after the test, a couple of the Metalform magazines started failing to lock the slide back on empty. That's it, no other problems.

I got away from the 9mm 1911 path and now strictly own 45s and 38 Supers. The 9mm guns are fun and great for shooting but I just don't have the confidence in them that I do with the 45s. I always felt with the 9mm guns that I was one shot away from a problem, even though I generally had good luck with them.

As a general rule, I would say you are more likely to have zero problems with a new Glock than with a new 1911. But 1911s can be totally reliable with proper maintenance -- and the maintenance is no big deal.

It seems we've had this discussion a few times.

[Kmr54]

After having bought and sold several 1911's during my life, none have stuck out to me as being truly reliable. All haven't been able to go more than 1k rounds without a stoppage, and certainly none ever met the 2k round challenge. The 1911's I have owned have all been Colts and Springfields, so not complete junk brands. I even had one of the Colts worked over by what was supposed to be an experienced 1911 'smith, a Marine armorer from Vietnam. I shoot them amazingly, and I have a huge cache/reloading components of .45 Auto, so I really would love to have a truly reliable 1911 (one that can at least go 1k rounds without a stoppage, and preferably able to meet the 2k challenge consistently). I tend to abide by DocGKR's and the late ToddG's standards for reliability with a duty/carry pistol.

My question is, what does it take to get a stone-cold reliable (at least 2k MRBS) 1911 for serious use these days? So far the best info I've gotten is from reading DocGKR, who states you're going to spend $2500+ and have the pistol worked over by a master class 1911 gunsmith (not just an armorer). He listed several of these expert gunsmiths (Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers), but it looks like none of these individuals are working on 1911s themselves right now (or have passed).

What base gun should I start with, and who would I be able to send it off to? Assuming price is no object. I really want a reliable 1911 from the get-go, even if I have to send it off as soon as I get it to have a successful 1-2k round vetting period when I get it back.


Look at Alchemy Custom Weaponry

[SecondsCount]

This discussion does come up every so often, and the reply really hasn't changed much. Based on my experience and many others, Dan Wesson is making solid 1911s with good parts and proven reliability.

Good magazines and a quality extractor with proper tension will go a long way toward making a 1911 reliable.

[psalms144.1]

So, the real question is, are you asking the right question?

You want a 1911, so I'm assuming you're looking for precision and accuracy as your primary goal. That means a gun built to the tightest possible standards to eek out every little fraction of an inch of mechanical accuracy. Tight tolerances are less forgiving of abuse - specifically for things like the 2,000 round challenge run as intended with NO cleaning or lubrication during the challenge.

This is like asking for a humble, friendly supermodel who doesn't mind you leaving her at home every weekend while you go out hunting, shooting and fishing.

In my experience, Springfield guns are too tight for their own good. My RO is about 1,500 rounds into the challenge right now, but when I first received it, I literally had to use a cheater tube over the bushing wrench to disassemble it. That's excessive. My experience with Colts from the late 1980s until about 2000 was that not a single one of them ran worth a shit, so I basically quit buying Colts altogether.

On the other hand, I've got a pair of DWs, a 9mm Guardian and a .45 ACP CCO, and both run like raped apes. They're WAY more accurate than I am, and I can't get either of them to bobble no matter what I feed them. Both have gone through multiple range trips with 200+ rounds per trip with no maintenance, lube, or malfunctions, so, frankly, I'm perfectly OK with that. I don't give a shit if they'd go 2,000 rounds - because in the real world, through multiple deployments in multiple conflicts, I've NEVER had to run ANY firearm through multiple thousands of rounds with no maintenance or lube.

Quit worrying about a specific number or "challenge," and worry about what you shoot well that will get you through you're most stringent shooting need. For me, the worst abuse I've EVER given any pistol was shooting about 1,000 rounds per day for multiple days in training. But, I still had time to field strip, wipe the rails, relube, and pull a snake through the bore even on those days...

[Navin Johnson]

Based on your criteria a 5-inch gun is the only option.

Understand whichever route you go The gun may need two to three trips back to the smith or manufacturer to be tweaked.

If reliability is that important then think in terms of three one for carry one for practice and one for backup. You said money is no object.

Quality magazines and quality ammunition will go a long ways to keep a gun reliable. Nothing like seeing some dude with a nighthawk custom buying remand 45 to shoot at the range.

All that being said no gun is "stone cold" reliable if run hard and or not maintained and/or depending on the conditions it is used in.

If I were going that route I would have two build on aluminum frames and one built on a steel frame.

The best 1911 will only run as good as an out of the box modern polymer 45. (In aggregate for those of you with a 1911 that's been flawless for 300 rounds or so in every combat condition you could conceive).

Be sure and report back on what you chose. Good luck!

[SW CQB 45]

Tagged for interest

and I would be interested in doing the 2K test with my piece but that means, I would have to remove this from duty use, since I would not be allowed to clean/lube.

I have access to both Speer Lawman 230 and Federal 230.

While I have a variety of lubes, I have not kept up with what holds up well and does not creep away. When I inspect my gun daily before going to work, I look at the thumb safety notch cut out and can see the frame rail. If I see the glistening of lube, I am ok.

Roughly about once a month, I field strip and re lube.

my duty piece, is a used 2008 purchase Springfield Armory MC Operator. It was sent to SACS in 2009 for some upgrades (mainly WCBP and 10-8) and they only things factory are the barrel, slide, frame, grip safety, disconnector and ejector. I have been to a couple of schools where I fired just under 1K with no issues. I could feel the slide travel starting to become erratic toward the end that the second time I did a class like that, I would do a quick clean and lube every night.

It did fail Hilton's extractor test (2012 Armorer's Class) and Hilton filed on my extractor.

I have roughly 14K on it right now and the slide to frame fit has a bit of up and down play (nothing that I am worried about). Through its history with me, it did have spell of unexplained "tie ups" where the round would start up the feed ramp (only after a mag change), the nose would hit the top of the chamber and the slide would be locked against the round. No free movement of the slide and the magazine would not come out easily. I experienced the last of this at a LE comp roughly 2013ish. Also, since it would have in competition, I was frantic is trying to get it running again, I could never ID if a mag was also the culprit.

After discussion with Hilton, I had the original design (gen 1) 10-8 slide stop and he suggested I try the gen 2 version. Oddly, I also discovered unusual heavy wear on my 10-8 magazine catch (where it catches the magazine notch). Almost a gouging of the locking shelf. I replaced both the slide stop and mag catch with fresh 10-8s and have not experienced that issue again. I was lead to believe that my issue may have been tolerance stacking.

I would like to think my current carry is reliable, but I have never subject it to a test of this nature. I would fresh spring it, heavy lube and let the test begin.

Maybe Decemberish to start this test?? (Why so long... I need to bring out my LTT and become one with it before I carry on duty)


This picture came with an odd discovery (more that once) where I would find my thumb safety "off" in my heavily worn duty holster. I could not duplicate the mishap and was scratching my head on why it would be found "clicked off" in my duty holster. I replaced the plunger tube spring (the original was 3/16" short) and I heat and re-molded the duty holster around the thumb safety lever (ejection side) to prevent movement. Hell, I even tightened the screw on the WCBP hammer pin which is part of the safety system. Seems to be working!!
https://i.imgur.com/iRtsK2gh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wSs6Ytuh.jpg

[YVK]

Thanks. I've never heard of Mars Armament. I'll look into them. Anyone know if they have any government contracts or anything?
______________
And on another note, I see Cylinder and Slide (Bill Laughridge's company, a pistolsmith who DocGKR recommends) has a custom Springfield 1911 in stock. I wonder if that would meet DocGKR's recommendations for a hard-use 1911 and if it would be suitable for hard use right out of the box?

Steve is a one man shop, I doubt he has govt contracts but I won't speak for him.

I've handled and shot the C&S Trident. I wasn't impressed at that price point and that special coating wasn't doing anything, IMO.

[farscott]

Agree on Sams claim to fame. I have a strong feeling he knows how to make one run and run albeit my sample size is tiny. Kevin B is expecting a TRP back from him with the full treatment in a few months. Can't wait for that one! Dave S is of the opinion that it is the precise fitting of premium "hard use" components that deliver a long term reliable and persistently accurate pistol. And for myself, having glimpsed this promised land, I only want both reliability and precision. It's hard to give up the accuracy once it's been tasted.

Scoring something nice second hand sounds pretty solid.

My Sams 9x19 1911 is very reliable with the right magazines. It is insanely accurate. I also would not describe it as a hard use pistol due to the presence of a FLGR, the BoMar adjustable rear sight, and a thin front sight. I love the sight picture, but I have destroyed more than one set of BoMar sights on a carry pistol (the Colt shown below back in the day). I finally had John Harrison replace the BoMar with his fixed "Extreme Service" sight cut for the BoMar. In fact, that sight was one of his prototype sights.

Another good secondhand choice would be a Custom Carry from SACS, especially as the pistols are covered under warranty for the life of the pistol. SACS knows how to make a pistol run. I really like my Custom Carry; I like it more than the better known "Professional".

[wvincent]

There are a couple of THUGS on the board. I’m on the list for one for one soon. My best friend has two, and they define a working, hard use pistol

I’ve got a couple that would have easily passed 2000 rounds if I was counting. I would guess my Yost-Bonitz and my Frank Glenn builds colts are better than my glocks

Sorry man, I think I'm in your build spot right now!! I'll send pics when it's done!







Just kidding, I'm still waiting on the email from Sara:D

[Darth_Uno]

I owned (and foolishly sold) a Dan Wesson CBOB that never jammed once in appx 6000 rounds. Work by Severns Custom was pretty minimal: trigger job, "reliability package" (which was reaming the chamber and a few minor polishes/tweaks) and Hard Hat finish. I'd have put it up against any Glock. I did clean it every couple hundred rounds though.

[Robinson]

While I did, as stated previously, put a 1911 through the 2K challenge and it passed, I don't really consider it a meaningful test for the 1911 in general because generally speaking they are dependent on proper lubrication to keep them running.

So if someone wants to do it, that's fine -- but if the gun starts malfunctioning when it gets dry that doesn't really mean all that much. In my experience 1911s will run dirty but not dry. I don't clean my guns very often, but I do keep them lubed.

[45dotACP]

Is your marine armorer friend a gunsmith or is he just an armorer. There is a world of difference. Especially for a military armorer. Even then, some gunsmiths have trouble getting it right in a 1911.

A formula for success, base off of my experience:

-Government model gun with proper barrel fit (with a chamber that is finish reamed) that shows no springing, lug bump or link riding

-In .45acp with an 18lb recoil spring and a 23lb mainspring.

-Extractor shaped so that the tensioning wall is the ONLY part touching the shell casing and that is correctly set for tension and deflection.

-Quality magazines (7 round standard tube, 8 round extended tube).

-Quality ammunition. Don't feed your gun reman or poor quality reloads that fail a case gauge.

-Use lube as needed. Don't use grease or anything that's going to thicken in cold weather. Clean it as needed.

(As an aside, I don't do the 2,000 round test for a few reasons. One, I'll never run that much ammo through any gun without cleaning. And two, although it's certainly possible for the guns to do it, the combination of lube and burnt carbon will become a lapping compound and can loosen the tight fit that seperates an accurate 1911 from a REALLY accurate 1911.)

-If it fails the 10-8 extractor test, take it back to the bench and figure out why.


If you can't do these things yourself and if your armorer friend can't address them, then your guns probably aren't set up correctly.

In my experience, Springfield and RRA did these things decently except the springs and the extractor tension

My Colt 9mm Commander had almost nothing correct and I basically had to rebuild the gun from aftermarket parts. My Kimber 5" 9mm was better, but the barrel fit was incomplete and the extractor geometry was fucked up. Some mild tuning got it to be more reliable than the Colt, though the barrel fit is not great and it is not as accurate since the Colt got rebarreled with a match grade barrel.

I have two 5" .45 guns that I built from bare slides/frames. My first 1911 was a Caspian frame and slide and was my first foray into the design. It took many malfunctions, several trips back to my bench and much seeking of qualified advice to find what made it work. It's had 30,000 rounds through it by now and has easily gone the last 20,000 of them without malfunction. The other was a frame and slide from Palmetto State. It is yet to malfunction, as it became my brother's 1911 and he doesn't shoot as much as I do.

Tl;Dr there is a reason people pay lots of money to gunsmiths or semi custom shops to get their 1911s running. Because if you don't know how to set up your gun and have no time to learn, you need to know someone who does, and probably you'll need to pay them for it.

This is why people like Glocks and why other people like 1911s. Some guys treat their gun like a classic car, and other guys treat theirs like a Honda Civic.

Start with Dan Wesson and up.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Trooper224]

Everyone has given advice on brands. Most of it has been good advice, so I'll try a different tac. What's your personal knowledge of the 1911? I ask this because you've owned Colts and Springers you couldn't make run. In my experience they're both capable of meeting your criteria, I've had both pass Tods requirements with ease.

Do you know how to tune and fit an extractor, fit an ejector or tighten a plunger tube? These aren't gunsmith duties necessarily, really more like basic maintenance. In my opinion and experience, these are things a 1911 runner needs to accomplish on their own if they're going to live with God's Gun. The old beast is a product of a different era and needs a bit of periodic tweaking to stay in the game. Depending on a gunsmith for everything other than cleaning is a frustrating proposition with the 1911.

[GlorifiedMailman]

It in the section titled special. $1600 on you supplied Colt.
I think I see it, the Colt XSE/MARS package? Will they work on a new production non-XSE Colt (such as a new production Series 70 Government Model)? I just emailed them to find out, but I'm wondering if they'll only do that on the XSE/Rail Gun. Thanks for turning me on to this.

[GlorifiedMailman]

My Sams full build .45 runs and runs with minimum TLC like one of my Glocks. Dave Sams.

My Sams tuned 9mm Operator is almost, not quite, almost as reliable. But . . . 9mm one inch 50 yard gun with a very heavy slide to work.

My Wilson CQB Elite .45 seems the equal to the Sams gun for running. I realize there are some with bad luck with those semi-customs.

I'm fortunate to have had two TRPs and an LB Operator that run like the customs.

A close friend just got a Colt worked over by Derr Precision and it is spectacular. Greg Derr is on my short list for getting work done.
I just looked into Derr Precision and it seems promising. I was wanting to stick with who DocGKR would recommend but I realize all those seem to be non-options. Even with the ones still in business like Cylinder & Slide, I don't think Bill Laughridge is doing the work himself anymore. I will also look into Dave Sams. Thanks for the knowledge.

[Totem Polar]

In my experience, Springfield and RRA did these things decently except the springs and the extractor tension


I want to pull this sentence out of a bunch of excellent context. The Rock River and the Springfields I’ve had have all been like this, and very reliable.

I‘m always reluctant to chime in on 1911 threads, because #1, I’m no expert compared to many here, and #2, I know that what I’ll say next will have some folks looking at me like I have all the dicks growing out of my forehead. That said, I’m currently toting a Springer Mil-Spec that is literally box-stock, save for wolff springs, a Wilson bulletproof extractor, and a Wilson firing pin stop. The extractor is a serious step up over the stock SA deal; looking at them both under magnification indicates that they really aren’t the same thing. I seat-of-the-pants tensioned the Wilson using a live cartridge per Jason Burton’s video tutorial.

At any rate, this Springer has been absolutely 100 percent with both 4 brands of ball and 230GDHP using a pile of metalform 7-rounders. This is coming from a guy who’s had a few malfs with multiple Glocks in training, including a gen3 17 and a G45–to say nothing of the single stack Glocks. I’d take a used $450 Mil-Spec with new springs and a Wilson extractor over a G36 all week long.

Somebody says this every 1911 thread, so I might as well take my turn: if one wants Ferrari fit and finish, and can afford it, absolutely. There is a lot to be said for the extra performance, speed, comfort, smoothness, pleasure, feedback, tracking... all of that is absolutely tangible value, but that doesn’t mean it’ll drive across the state any more *reliably* than a Hyundai Elantra that’s been regularly maintained and lubed. JMO.

[GlorifiedMailman]

So, the real question is, are you asking the right question?

You want a 1911, so I'm assuming you're looking for precision and accuracy as your primary goal. That means a gun built to the tightest possible standards to eek out every little fraction of an inch of mechanical accuracy. Tight tolerances are less forgiving of abuse - specifically for things like the 2,000 round challenge run as intended with NO cleaning or lubrication during the challenge.

This is like asking for a humble, friendly supermodel who doesn't mind you leaving her at home every weekend while you go out hunting, shooting and fishing.

In my experience, Springfield guns are too tight for their own good. My RO is about 1,500 rounds into the challenge right now, but when I first received it, I literally had to use a cheater tube over the bushing wrench to disassemble it. That's excessive. My experience with Colts from the late 1980s until about 2000 was that not a single one of them ran worth a shit, so I basically quit buying Colts altogether.

On the other hand, I've got a pair of DWs, a 9mm Guardian and a .45 ACP CCO, and both run like raped apes. They're WAY more accurate than I am, and I can't get either of them to bobble no matter what I feed them. Both have gone through multiple range trips with 200+ rounds per trip with no maintenance, lube, or malfunctions, so, frankly, I'm perfectly OK with that. I don't give a shit if they'd go 2,000 rounds - because in the real world, through multiple deployments in multiple conflicts, I've NEVER had to run ANY firearm through multiple thousands of rounds with no maintenance or lube.

Quit worrying about a specific number or "challenge," and worry about what you shoot well that will get you through you're most stringent shooting need. For me, the worst abuse I've EVER given any pistol was shooting about 1,000 rounds per day for multiple days in training. But, I still had time to field strip, wipe the rails, relube, and pull a snake through the bore even on those days...

Actually, Glock-like reliability is far more important to me than mechanical accuracy. I'm not looking to get a bullseye shooter, but a hard use carry piece to use in high round count classes as well. I have discovered that even standard 1911's like factory Colt Gov't Models and Springfield Loaded's shoot better for me than just about anything else. I find even rack grade 1911's to be incredibly easy to shoot well. However, none so far have proven reliable enough for me to consider for serious use.

I shouldn't have referred to my requirement as being "meet the 2k rounds challenge", because that requires no cleaning or maintenance. What I desire is a 1911 that can routinely and easily go at least 2k rounds between stoppages, but with normal cleaning/lubing at reasonable intervals. Yes I would like it to be able to go 2k rounds without cleaning/lube, but far more important to me is just being able to go 2k rounds without a stoppage assuming normal cleaning/lubrication.

In other words, a 1911 which would be considered reliable/durable enough for serious use by people who's knowledge I have learned from about 1911s for serious use. DocGKR specifically has shaped what I consider the requirements to be for a 1911 for serious use. I wonder what he would recommend to an individual (not an entire department) in 2020 wanting a serious use 1911.

[psalms144.1]

Actually, Glock-like reliability is far more important to me than mechanical accuracy. I'm not looking to get a bullseye shooter, but a hard use carry piece to use in high round count classes as well.

I shouldn't have referred to my requirement as being "meet the 2k rounds challenge", because that requires no cleaning or maintenance. What I desire is a 1911 that can routinely and easily go at least 2k rounds between stoppages, but with normal cleaning/lubing at reasonable intervals. Yes I would like it to be able to go 2k rounds without cleaning/lube, but far more important to me is just being able to go 2k rounds without a stoppage assuming normal cleaning/lubrication.

In other words, a 1911 which would be considered reliable/durable enough for serious use by people who's knowledge I have learned from about 1911s for serious use. DocGKR specifically has shaped what I consider the requirements to be for a 1911 for serious use. I wonder what he would recommend to an individual (not an entire department) in 2020 wanting a serious use 1911.Dan Wesson 5" .45 ACP or Commander length 9mm. Either will EASILY go multiple thousands of rounds with routine maintenance and mainspring replacement as needed. I paid $950 for the Guardian (used, off a very nice forum member) and $800ish for my CCO off Gunbroker. Go wild with a Valor off GB for $1200ish, and try to break it!

[Trooper224]

Dan Wesson 5" .45 ACP or Commander length 9mm. Either will EASILY go multiple thousands of rounds with routine maintenance and mainspring replacement as needed. I paid $950 for the Guardian (used, off a very nice forum member) and $800ish for my CCO off Gunbroker. Go wild with a Valor off GB for $1200ish, and try to break it!


This.

[JHC]

I just looked into Derr Precision and it seems promising. I was wanting to stick with who DocGKR would recommend but I realize all those seem to be non-options. Even with the ones still in business like Cylinder & Slide, I don't think Bill Laughridge is doing the work himself anymore. I will also look into Dave Sams. Thanks for the knowledge.

One thing that to me is just cool AF is Greg Derr himself was an accomplished precision shooter in his own right based on his interesting bio on his site.

[theJanitor]

What base gun should I start with, and who would I be able to send it off to?

If you decide to go custom, always start with the 'smith. Talk to several of them and tell them your needs, concerns, and ideas. Not every smith is suited for every job. After you and the smith agree on how you want a pistol built, then agree on a base pistol. Then you just have to trust the process. The biggest mistake I see people make, when commissioning a custom, is to tell the expert what to do.

One thing to look for is a "reliability" package. This is the basic level package that ensures each critical part of the gun, with regards to reliability, is addressed. Add on accuracy/ergo/aesthetic options from there, with the clarification from the builder that reliability won't be compromised with those choices. The finished product is so much more, but at it's core, the THUG is a reliability package

To be honest, It's pretty easy in 2020 to get a reliable 1911, even from factory sources. You do have to reasonably define "reliability" for yourself, and go from there.

[JHC]

Actually, Glock-like reliability is far more important to me than mechanical accuracy.

yeah that was me too until I was baptized by the fusion of stupid precision and reliability. It don't come cheap though. :D

The other guy on my short list is Alchemy https://alchemy1911.com/

Way smarter than me have said his guns are still underpriced but won't be forever. Now he doesn't tune your gun. He builds a small set of models and you get to pick from a few little tweaks like sights or trigger or grips etc. Helluva strong reputation though.

[19852+]

My example of one Colt .38 super auto has navigated the 2000 round challenge 3 times. First time with factory ammo taught me that magazines make a difference and that a modest throat and feed ramp polish is a good idea Also lube, as in good lube and not Frog lube. Second time with my reloads taught me springs are important as in don't mess with success. Full power main and a #15 Wilson flat wire are my formula. Another tip; no powder puff loads if you want reliability, this goes hand in hand with good springs. On my third time around I took almost two years. One blown case head [super face anybody?] technically a stoppage but not the guns fault. I pounded it apart because I was in the middle of a competition and in the process lost a lot of lube but with a ammo change it kept going [the mag didn't..] .
It's well worn but it runs now with a Brown drop in 9mm barrel along with the .22 top end. No other mods to get it to function with 9mm other than genuine 9mm mags. Super mags work but not as reliable as dedicated 9mm mags.

I treat it like some treat their Glock, not purposely abused but not babied either. I'm cleaning it a little more frequently than once every two years now, seriously it was filthy.

[farscott]

In my experience, Springfield guns are too tight for their own good. My RO is about 1,500 rounds into the challenge right now, but when I first received it, I literally had to use a cheater tube over the bushing wrench to disassemble it. That's excessive. My experience with Colts from the late 1980s until about 2000 was that not a single one of them ran worth a shit, so I basically quit buying Colts altogether.

Either SA has changed how guns are built and fit or there is something unusual with that RO. I assume the former as my SA base guns are all close to twenty years old, and one of the RO line goals was increased accuracy. The stock bushings all turned with minimal finger pressure. That being said, turning the barrel bushing with the barrel out of battery negates the need for a bushing wrench in a properly fit barrel.

[JTQ]

I was wanting to stick with who DocGKR would recommend but I realize all those seem to be non-options.
Heck, wouldn't his current recommendation be an M&P45?

[Robinson]

I failed to mention in my post up-thread that the guns I was discussing are all Colts. The ones that get shot the most are Custom Shop guns. Some of the others are basic, traditional models. They simply run with no drama. Not everyone has the same experience with Colt products, so that is not necessarily an endorsement -- I am just reporting my own experience.

[JAD]

Mars THUG should meet your needs.
http://www.marsguns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index

Soon​TM

[JAD]

This discussion does come up every so often, and the reply really hasn't changed much. Based on my experience and many others, Dan Wesson is making solid 1911s with good parts and proven reliability.

Good magazines and a quality extractor with proper tension will go a long way toward making a 1911 reliable.

My single high round count DW is rock solid with the right magazines. The factory Checkmates were garbage and extra capacity wilsons don't run well, but with 6 round mags (it's a CCO) it doesn't stop.

[Tamara]

My 4" 9mm Wilson Tactical Carry Professional has been as solidly reliable (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2017/04/it-is-finished.html) as any polymer pistol I've owned.

I carried and shot my Springfield Custom PC9111 for years without issues.

I pulled my bespoke Coal Creek Armory custom 5" gun out of the FedEx box on a Friday evening and took it to my first Aim Fast, Hit Fast class the very next morning without so much as test-firing it and it went a thousand rounds over the weekend with no further maintenance, cleaning, or lubrication, much to Todd's surprise.

So the surest route to happiness would be to deeply educate yourself in what makes a 1911 work (and not work), research the quality makers (like you're doing here), and prepare to drop serious coin.

Or buy a Glock.

[Tamara]

Either SA has changed how guns are built and fit or there is something unusual with that RO. I assume the former as my SA base guns are all close to twenty years old, and one of the RO line goals was increased accuracy. The stock bushings all turned with minimal finger pressure. That being said, turning the barrel bushing with the barrel out of battery negates the need for a bushing wrench in a properly fit barrel.

My Professional (s/n CRG6xx, so a very early production gun; '00 or so) had a bushing so snug that on its first disassembly I had to brace it between my knees while my roommate leaned on the bushing wrench.

The steel bushing wrench, because it had already destroyed a no-mar nylon one.

[farscott]

I ran this RRA Elite Commando through the 2,000-round challenge sometime ago; it is in the thread. I did "cheat" in that I wiped the pistol down after each range session to protect the damaged finish. The pistol has an unusual history in that I am the second owner, purchasing it from the original owner after it was stolen, recovered, and returned to him. The below pictures show some of the damage it suffered while "on the streets".

[Tamara]

My CCA custom is built on a Rock River frame. There was a time when they were the best kept 1911 secret outside of bullseye circles.

[GlorifiedMailman]

Heck, wouldn't his current recommendation be an M&P45?
For a .45 Auto pistol for duty/carry use, yes (I think he also recommends the HK45 and G21 Gen 4), but I'm talking about in the specific context of 1911s. I am willing to spend some serious coin, even if it takes a while to get there.

I do have several Glock 21 Gen 4's, and with my recent acquisition of an insane amount of .45 Auto and reloading components for that caliber from inheritance, plus the fact that I seem to be noticeably more accurate with the G21 than my G19's, I have been shooting .45 Auto more than anything else. I shoot 1911's more accurately than most everything else, so I'd like to delve into the world of serious use high quality 1911's, specifically 5" full size, carbon steel ones in .45 Auto. I have no problem carrying a full size Glock 21 Gen 4 or HK USP 45, so I'm not worried about it being too big.

[45dotACP]

The RRA poly 1911 I bought came with a steel bushing wrench in the box.

At first I thought it was an unnecessary accoutrement, but nice of them to include.

But it was, in fact, necessary.

The gun is fantastically accurate though.


Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

Is your marine armorer friend a gunsmith or is he just an armorer. There is a world of difference. Especially for a military armorer. Even then, some gunsmiths have trouble getting it right in a 1911.

A formula for success, base off of my experience:

-Government model gun with proper barrel fit (with a chamber that is finish reamed) that shows no springing, lug bump or link riding

-In .45acp with an 18lb recoil spring and a 23lb mainspring.

-Extractor shaped so that the tensioning wall is the ONLY part touching the shell casing and that is correctly set for tension and deflection.

-Quality magazines (7 round standard tube, 8 round extended tube).

-Quality ammunition. Don't feed your gun reman or poor quality reloads that fail a case gauge.

-Use lube as needed. Don't use grease or anything that's going to thicken in cold weather. Clean it as needed.

(As an aside, I don't do the 2,000 round test for a few reasons. One, I'll never run that much ammo through any gun without cleaning. And two, although it's certainly possible for the guns to do it, the combination of lube and burnt carbon will become a lapping compound and can loosen the tight fit that seperates an accurate 1911 from a REALLY accurate 1911.)

-If it fails the 10-8 extractor test, take it back to the bench and figure out why.


If you can't do these things yourself and if your armorer friend can't address them, then your guns probably aren't set up correctly.

In my experience, Springfield and RRA did these things decently except the springs and the extractor tension

My Colt 9mm Commander had almost nothing correct and I basically had to rebuild the gun from aftermarket parts. My Kimber 5" 9mm was better, but the barrel fit was incomplete and the extractor geometry was fucked up. Some mild tuning got it to be more reliable than the Colt, though the barrel fit is not great and it is not as accurate since the Colt got rebarreled with a match grade barrel.

I have two 5" .45 guns that I built from bare slides/frames. My first 1911 was a Caspian frame and slide and was my first foray into the design. It took many malfunctions, several trips back to my bench and much seeking of qualified advice to find what made it work. It's had 30,000 rounds through it by now and has easily gone the last 20,000 of them without malfunction. The other was a frame and slide from Palmetto State. It is yet to malfunction, as it became my brother's 1911 and he doesn't shoot as much as I do.

Tl;Dr there is a reason people pay lots of money to gunsmiths or semi custom shops to get their 1911s running. Because if you don't know how to set up your gun and have no time to learn, you need to know someone who does, and probably you'll need to pay them for it.

This is why people like Glocks and why other people like 1911s. Some guys treat their gun like a classic car, and other guys treat theirs like a Honda Civic.

Start with Dan Wesson and up.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

This guy^^^

Though I was thinking the RRA Poly, aside from extractor tension was generally good? Between you and Totem Polar's success - I've been seriously considering one. Seems like they may be the only duty ready <$1000 1911 out there...otherwise it's off to a Dan Wesson.

I really can't add much that 45dotACP didn't cover here. Particularly the point about you the operator either need to learn the intricacies of the system or you need to be prepared to spend the cash for someone who knows those intricacies to work on your personal weapons.

If you want a Honda Civic reliable 1911...buy an HK and carry it in Condition 1. :eek:

[paherne]

I have a Nighthawk Costa that I bought because, well, I could and I got a good deal on it because it could only be sold to a cop in CA, due to CA's draconian and stupid laws. I've lubed it once and shot it for the last 3 years without running a round count. After the initial fieldstrip and lube, it has not had any malfunctions other than one bad mag, a Wilson, that I found at the bottom of my range bucket that is of unknown provenance. The mags I use with it are the "garbage" Checkmates. I buy about 20 per year at the good guy price and as soon as there are failures to lock back, etc. I toss them. It's not a gun I've carried on duty because it needs an ambi safety, short trigger and some slim grips for my miniscule fingers. The thing just runs and I give it NO maintenance because it's not a duty gun. It's also ugly, because of those stupid flat cuts to the slide. I have to say, if I was looking for a duty-grade 1911, I'd buy once and cry once. I've owned Kimbers and Dan Wessons in the past.

[Greg]

Evolution Armory might be a good option for you.

Alchemy is another builder to consider.

Regardless of who builds your gun, you as a 1911 owner will have to know the pistol rather well.

[farscott]

My Professional (s/n CRG6xx, so a very early production gun; '00 or so) had a bushing so snug that on its first disassembly I had to brace it between my knees while my roommate leaned on the bushing wrench.

The steel bushing wrench, because it had already destroyed a no-mar nylon one.

On my Pro, I pull the slide stop, remove the whole upper, remove the GI guide rod and spring, slide the barrel out of battery, and then turn the barrel bushing with my fingers. I then use the barrel to tap the bushing from the slide. I have never used a bushing wrench on it. My Pro is CRG26xx, so it much later than yours.

[GlorifiedMailman]

Is your marine armorer friend a gunsmith or is he just an armorer. There is a world of difference. Especially for a military armorer. Even then, some gunsmiths have trouble getting it right in a 1911.
First off, thank you for the wealth of information. That helps a lot. Second, he was an actual gunsmith (retired Marine armorer). I sought him out locally as being known for working on 1911's... However, based on the results he obviously doesn't compare to the Masters. It ran better than all the other 1911's I've had, but it still wasn't reliable enough for serious use.

[theJanitor]

On my Pro, I pull the slide stop, remove the whole upper, remove the GI guide rod and spring, slide the barrel out of battery, and then turn the barrel bushing with my fingers. I then use the barrel to tap the bushing from the slide. I have never used a bushing wrench on it. My Pro is CRG26xx, so it much later than yours.

This is my SOP, as well

[GlorifiedMailman]

Honestly, part of me is starting to think that I really would be better off sticking with Glock 21 Gen 4's/HK USP's in .45 Auto... I've known all along that is the practical thing to do, but something about the 1911 as a serious use pistol calls to me. However, reliability and durability are my most important criteria, and even if I get one that's been worked over and runs, I have a feeling there might just be this nagging thought in the back of my mind that it's finicky... It seems that everyone who knows about 1911's says that they require intensive maintenance and attention to be combat-grade reliable, and to me, that kind of sounds like a pistol that just shouldn't be trusted.

But at the same time, I really really want one. I love the 1911 a lot, and I would be willing to spend the money and time to get one that is reliable enough to trust... I just wonder if I'd ever be able to trust it as I would a Glock or HK.

[RevolverRob]

yeah that was me too until I was baptized by the fusion of stupid precision and reliability. It don't come cheap though. :D

Is it that expensive though?

The idea that it is an "either/or" proposition in 1911-land is one of those fallacies, like that a 1911 requires a wizard to work on. I know I'm preaching to the choir a bit - we know that the 1911 is not only not a particularly complicated system, but both accuracy and reliability generally come down to proper barrel fit. So, one should come with the other. The difference between a 2" gun and a 1" gun in terms of fit is mostly going to bushing fit...both should be utterly reliable.
___

I was being a bit facetious earlier. You can get a 1911 that is Honda Civic-like reliable. But it will have muscle-car-like maintenance intervals as opposed to Civic-like maintenance intervals...as long as you're fine maintaining a gun more regularly and possibly more thoroughly, then it will be fine. Me, I like fast cars and finely crafted weapons...I pay the price, both literally in terms of cash, and figuratively in terms of maintenance.

[theJanitor]

But at the same time, I really really want one. I love the 1911 a lot, and I would be willing to spend the money and time to get one that is reliable enough to trust... I just wonder if I'd ever be able to trust it as I would a Glock or HK.


It's not that hard, especially if you have the time and scratch.

Call up

MARS
Sokol
Alchemy
Chambers
Garthwaite
Burton
Reid
Combat Precision
Bob@Nighthawk

There are more, that will get you what you want. Just be realistic in what you REALLY want. If more than one tells you that it's not doable, you need to readjust your expectations.

[wvincent]

How about GunCrafter and the No Name line?
I have yet to see one in person, but they seem pretty nice.

Have yet to see much in the way of reviews yet either.

[theJanitor]

How about GunCrafter and the No Name line?
I have yet to see one in person, but they seem pretty nice.

Have yet to see much in the way of reviews yet either.

Ned says they're good to go. I'd trust that endorsement

[Totem Polar]

Though I was thinking the RRA Poly, aside from extractor tension was generally good? Between you and Totem Polar's success - I've been seriously considering one. Seems like they may be the only duty ready <$1000 1911 out there...otherwise it's off to a Dan Wesson.


Straight up: the only thing keeping me from buying another RR Poly is that I’ve sort of had this long term, sell down stuff plan to eventually get something like a Nighthawk GRP, because reasons; shooting Matt Graham’s. Thing is, I’m having enough fun with my Mil-Spec and old Colt Commander that I really don’t want to do any more consolidation. I’m leaning towards just getting another Poly and $34 worth of extractor and facing the facts that I’m probably not a good candidate for playing in the 3k and up category. I just don’t want it bad enough to give up 17-19 round Glocks, bolt guns, pump .22s, single shot Rugers, and all the other stuff that 2 times 3 to 4k will buy. Plus, I’ve sold all the revolvers that I’m going to.

fatdog; you were right. :)

[JHC]

Is it that expensive though?

The idea that it is an "either/or" proposition in 1911-land is one of those fallacies, like that a 1911 requires a wizard to work on. I know I'm preaching to the choir a bit - we know that the 1911 is not only not a particularly complicated system, but both accuracy and reliability generally come down to proper barrel fit. So, one should come with the other. The difference between a 2" gun and a 1" gun in terms of fit is mostly going to bushing fit...both should be utterly reliable.
___

I was being a bit facetious earlier. You can get a 1911 that is Honda Civic-like reliable. But it will have muscle-car-like maintenance intervals as opposed to Civic-like maintenance intervals...as long as you're fine maintaining a gun more regularly and possibly more thoroughly, then it will be fine. Me, I like fast cars and finely crafted weapons...I pay the price, both literally in terms of cash, and figuratively in terms of maintenance.

OK, I may be lucky. Two TRPs and an $1100 LB Operator that in my human hands shoot with my Sams .45. From a machine, maybe not. But I can't say everyone who buys one of those Prod guns will score one like I've scored three.

"Mostly" bushing fit is not "all" however true? Sams is fitting the slide stop for support, the lugs for just so, lapping the frame etc.

I'm not seeing exotic car maintenance needs from my customish guns at all. Dave Sams will argue the better fit gun beats itself out of sorts into needing maintenance less. I certainly haven't seen higher cleaning or lube requirements from them.

Caveat that eats my premise, I don't know a mountain worth of what I don't know.

ETA: I've heard friends with new Pro's describe that bushing fit - like forget it for a bunch of rounds first. Brutal tight. My one inch 50 yard Sams 9mm is not that bad at all and wasn't when fresh from Dave. Wrench tight but not that bad. Any my Wilson CQB Elite which threatens to outshoot them all is even easier albeit firm to turn it's bushing. My LB Operator's bushing is easily turned by hand and it's shot better than 2" at 25 yard for 5 and 2" a bunch more times. FWIW.

[mhl6493]

Honestly, part of me is starting to think that I really would be better off sticking with Glock 21 Gen 4's/HK USP's in .45 Auto... I've known all along that is the practical thing to do, but something about the 1911 as a serious use pistol calls to me. However, reliability and durability are my most important criteria, and even if I get one that's been worked over and runs, I have a feeling there might just be this nagging thought in the back of my mind that it's finicky... It seems that everyone who knows about 1911's says that they require intensive maintenance and attention to be combat-grade reliable, and to me, that kind of sounds like a pistol that just shouldn't be trusted.

But at the same time, I really really want one. I love the 1911 a lot, and I would be willing to spend the money and time to get one that is reliable enough to trust... I just wonder if I'd ever be able to trust it as I would a Glock or HK.

That expresses my frustrations as well. I love 1911s, and I'd love to carry one. But I'm not particularly mechanically inclined, nor do I have a bunch of tools or the knowledge to use them. That seems from so much of what I read/hear to be a no-win proposition for me. And yet, I still have the desire to try to make it work. There's just something about them...

[Grey]

That expresses my frustrations as well. I love 1911s, and I'd love to carry one. But I'm not particularly mechanically inclined, nor do I have a bunch of tools or the knowledge to use them. That seems from so much of what I read/hear to be a no-win proposition for me. And yet, I still have the desire to try to make it work. There's just something about them...

You just need to pocketbook to allow you to have a builder make it right...

[theJanitor]

I certainly haven't seen higher cleaning or lube requirements from them.


My customs need so little maintenance, it's laughable.

[JHC]

My customs need so little maintenance, it's laughable.

That's all K.B. shoots and he POUNDS volumes through them and his experience is like yours.

[45dotACP]

This guy^^^

Though I was thinking the RRA Poly, aside from extractor tension was generally good? Between you and Totem Polar's success - I've been seriously considering one. Seems like they may be the only duty ready <$1000 1911 out there...otherwise it's off to a Dan Wesson.


I'm not gonna lie, I adjusted the tension before I even fired a round through it. And it has worked from the get go. Passed the 10-8 test handily.

You can tell that the extractor had been fitted because the hook and the fitting pad had polished spots. So someone who knows about extractors took a file to it. I was impressed. Especially given the price.

It may have ran just fine if I never adjusted it, I just hedged my bets.

The only reason I hesitate to recommend it to most is holster fit. It doesn't fit a kydex holster, but definitely fits leather. The thumb safety was also rather stiff. But a swipe or two of a file and sandpaper smoothed it up.

I think I'd suggest it with those caveats to anyone looking for a <$1000 1911 even Though it's a bit nontraditional

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[GlorifiedMailman]

It's not that hard, especially if you have the time and scratch.

Call up

MARS
Sokol
Alchemy
Chambers
Garthwaite
Burton
Reid
Combat Precision
Bob@Nighthawk

There are more, that will get you what you want. Just be realistic in what you REALLY want. If more than one tells you that it's not doable, you need to readjust your expectations.
Fair point. Question: Should a Nighthawk be considered only if you know it was done by Bob? I do see they have a worked-over Colt series 70 that I love the simplicity of. I actually prefer a more GI-looking 1911, but reliability is top priority.

https://www.nighthawkcustom.com/pistols/1911s-government/colt-series70

Would this have as good of a chance of being combat-reliable out of the box as a quality 1911 worked over by one of the "Masters" 1911 'smiths?

[theJanitor]

Fair point. Question: Should a Nighthawk be considered only if you know it was done by Bob?

Bob is the shop manager, and a smith, himself. He can walk you through the ordering process.

[fatdog]

Poly and $34 worth of extractor

Funny you should mention this, a good friend shot mine and loved it. He found one NIB on Gunbroker for a smokin deal from some dealer who had apparently been trying to unload it for a while. $800 I think. It got here, guess what is wrong? FTE of course! Dropped in a Wilson extractor and it was cured. However the extractor is not flush with the rear of the slide so some filing is in order.

[Trooper224]

Fair point. Question: Should a Nighthawk be considered only if you know it was done by Bob? I do see they have a worked-over Colt series 70 that I love the simplicity of. I actually prefer a more GI-looking 1911, but reliability is top priority.

https://www.nighthawkcustom.com/pistols/1911s-government/colt-series70

Would this have as good of a chance of being combat-reliable out of the box as a quality 1911 worked over by one of the "Masters" 1911 'smiths?

I looked at one of these last weekend. It's rather plain looking in order to enhance the retro vibe, but the build was solid.

[wvincent]

How traditional do you want to be?
The Staccato R combines the best of the 1911 features, with all of the improvements of the 2011.
Reliable out of the box, with an incredible recoil impulse.
$2000.00

And done.

And it's duty ready.
https://staccato2011.com/2020-product-lineup/staccato-r/

[banzaijohn]

Unfortunately, the custom 1911 world is diminished with the passing of James Garthwaite yesterday.

https://www.tributearchive.com/obituaries/15980941/James-L-Garthwaite-Jr


It's not that hard, especially if you have the time and scratch.

Call up

MARS
Sokol
Alchemy
Chambers
Garthwaite
Burton
Reid
Combat Precision
Bob@Nighthawk

There are more, that will get you what you want. Just be realistic in what you REALLY want. If more than one tells you that it's not doable, you need to readjust your expectations.

[Trooper224]

Unfortunately, the custom 1911 world is diminished with the passing of James Garthwaite yesterday.

https://www.tributearchive.com/obituaries/15980941/James-L-Garthwaite-Jr

The loss of another great contributor.

[wvincent]

Unfortunately, the custom 1911 world is diminished with the passing of James Garthwaite yesterday.

https://www.tributearchive.com/obituaries/15980941/James-L-Garthwaite-Jr

Truly sad news indeed.

[theJanitor]

Unfortunately, the custom 1911 world is diminished with the passing of James Garthwaite yesterday.

https://www.tributearchive.com/obituaries/15980941/James-L-Garthwaite-Jr

F*CK. Jim was awesome, and I'll cherish the pistols he's built

[wvincent]

F*CK. Jim was awesome, and I'll cherish the pistols he's built

Yeah, no shit.
I'm looking at the pics you sent me of your's, and I realize that I had my want list in the wrong order.
FML

[Grey]

How traditional do you want to be?
The Staccato R combines the best of the 1911 features, with all of the improvements of the 2011.
Reliable out of the box, with an incredible recoil impulse.
$2000.00

And done.

And it's duty ready.
https://staccato2011.com/2020-product-lineup/staccato-r/

Quick, no one tell Duke that the Staccato line is Duty READY.

[wvincent]

Quick, no one tell Duke that the Staccato line is Duty READY.

Shit, I had to edit that post twice to get the cheese in the trap.

[JHC]

Fair point. Question: Should a Nighthawk be considered only if you know it was done by Bob? I do see they have a worked-over Colt series 70 that I love the simplicity of. I actually prefer a more GI-looking 1911, but reliability is top priority.

https://www.nighthawkcustom.com/pistols/1911s-government/colt-series70

Would this have as good of a chance of being combat-reliable out of the box as a quality 1911 worked over by one of the "Masters" 1911 'smiths?

To my senses that NH retro Colt is pure sex. Filthy sex. It screams "BRING ME THE HEAD OF ALFREDO GARCIA!"

In email back and forth with I think "Bob" I learned that the match fit bushing will improve precision a fair bit over factory but not like a hard fit gun. I want one bad. Hell, for those looks I could see myself dropping a fair bit of money at a future date to upgrade precision to stupefying level. Hobby math and rationalization are my super powers.

[Totem Polar]

Funny you should mention this, a good friend shot mine and loved it. He found one NIB on Gunbroker for a smokin deal from some dealer who had apparently been trying to unload it for a while. $800 I think. It got here, guess what is wrong? FTE of course! Dropped in a Wilson extractor and it was cured. However the extractor is not flush with the rear of the slide so some filing is in order.

Your Poly was solid right out of the gate. I’d look at tensioning the stock extractor on your buddy’s gun, and give it another try. JMO.

[FrankB]

Dan Wesson 5" .45 ACP or Commander length 9mm. Either will EASILY go multiple thousands of rounds with routine maintenance and mainspring replacement as needed. I paid $950 for the Guardian (used, off a very nice forum member) and $800ish for my CCO off Gunbroker. Go wild with a Valor off GB for $1200ish, and try to break it!

I just picked up a Dan Wesson Vigil CCO 9mm yesterday, and it’s eaten 400 rounds of ball and Sig hollow points without a bobble. I really never have trouble with any of my Colts, Rugers, or Smith and Wesson 1911 pistols. Never. 56688

ETA: I clean all of my firearms after each range trip. Shooting 2,000 rounds without cleaning, is an exercise in nothing. My shooting is done to improve my self defense skills, and I simply can’t foresee a fight that would last 2,000 rounds. I don’t have enough magazines to carry 2,000 rounds! I can field strip, clean, and lube a 1911 in less than 5 minutes. There’s no excuse not to take care of your firearms.

[TOTS]

Yup. I’m kinda confused as to the issue. I’ve had a SA RO in .45 that would feed empty casings, a Colt Wiley Clapp that’s over 2000 and a DW Valor in 9mm that’s over 3500 with no issues. Check my posts in the 2K challenge thread for specific results. Although I think that’s an irrelevant (maybe a poor choice of word) goal. I would take (I actually took both a M9 and M4 that were less reliable) any of them to combat if I had to. I bet my life on them every time I carry them.

Nighthawk is easily recommended as a production line duty ready option by some heavy names in the industry.

[theJanitor]

Yeah, no shit.
I'm looking at the pics you sent me of your's, and I realize that I had my want list in the wrong order.
FML

I completely forgot we had that conversation. Jim's passing makes the Colt I had stolen all the more painful

[Wondering Beard]

Unfortunately, the custom 1911 world is diminished with the passing of James Garthwaite yesterday.

https://www.tributearchive.com/obituaries/15980941/James-L-Garthwaite-Jr

What a loss.

[wvincent]

I completely forgot we had that conversation. Jim's passing makes the Colt I had stolen all the more painful

Yeah, that hurts right in the fucking feels.
Better days my friend.

[GlorifiedMailman]

Yup. I’m kinda confused as to the issue. I’ve had a SA RO in .45 that would feed empty casings, a Colt Wiley Clapp that’s over 2000 and a DW Valor in 9mm that’s over 3500 with no issues. Check my posts in the 2K challenge thread for specific results. Although I think that’s an irrelevant (maybe a poor choice of word) goal. I would take (I actually took both a M9 and M4 that were less reliable) any of them to combat if I had to. I bet my life on them every time I carry them.

Nighthawk is easily recommended as a production line duty ready option by some heavy names in the industry.

I'm envious of your results with 1911s. I've heard from several people over the years who've had similar experiences, where their 1911's are supremely reliable out of the box. Other than the Colt worked over by a gunsmith (which didn't have super glaring issues but still couldn't go 1k rounds without 1 stoppage), all of the other Colt and Springfield 1911s I've owned have had serious issues that had to go back to the shop because of, and at that point I have a hard time trusting it even if it gets fixed. I always have a nagging suspicion in the back of my mind that it'll mess up when I need it most.

Your M4 was less reliable? That's interesting.

It sounds like Nighthawk Custom may be a good bet. For years I've looked at getting a Wilson Combat, but I've seen enough reports of issues out of the box with those that I'm a bit leery.

[NPV]

Unfortunately, the custom 1911 world is diminished with the passing of James Garthwaite yesterday.

https://www.tributearchive.com/obituaries/15980941/James-L-Garthwaite-Jr

Wow that’s truly terrible news, Jim not only was a phenomenal Smith but also a great guy. He is one of the only custom/artisan craftsmen in the gun world that I’ve dealt with who was joy to talk with and always delivered on time. He will be missed, I’m happy to have gotten on his books earlier this year. My thoughts go out to his family and loved ones.

[Duke]

Quick, no one tell Duke that the Staccato line is Duty READY.

Yep and The Kung flu - which is the deadliest shit ever- literally worse than Hitler, can be totally cured by wearing a gangster ass looking old t Shirt on your face and making sure you follow directional rope at the Walmart door.


Forgive me If I don’t believe.

[JohnK]

Maybe I have been lucky... but my 1911s just run and run. Any stoppage I have had are 100% ammo related if my handloads go out of spec for any reason. Any and all factory ammo through any of mine are 100%.

My heavy hitters are a Baer, Wilson, and Springfield Pro... and coming up in the ranks is a stock TRP. The Baer has been massaged a little bit to shoot my shooting style. But they don't have problems running up to 1,000 round's with minimal oil. I do my own version of an abbreviated torture test. Not to beat up on the gun, but because maybe I won't take the time to strip the gun to make sure it is oiled and clean before stepping out. I want it to be able to run dryer than a popcorn fart for at least 50 rounds. After that I will be using it as a club.

[JSGlock34]

I've had excellent performance out of my Wilson Combat Protector Elite. I've also had the opportunity to observe multiple Springfield Professional models. While the Pro might not be the semi-custom 1911 I'd spec out, I think you'd be hard pressed to name a more thoroughly vetted 1911 model through LE and military use. Since the OP mentioned government contracts, SACS has certainly been the builder of choice for LE and military units who needed a 1911.

[wvincent]

Why wouldn't the SA Vickers master class be a contender?
Even if you wanted to tweak it to make it a little more custom, it would be a heck of a base gun for later.

ETA: At the Vicker's Master Class price point, I'm tempted to buy one, that way I have something to play with while I wait my turn at a custom smith's.

[JSGlock34]

Why wouldn't the SA Vickers master class be a contender?
Even if you wanted to tweak it to make it a little more custom, it would be a heck of a base gun for later.

I think the Vickers Master Class hits a great price point. I'm sure they'll sell well. I wouldn't steer someone away from one, but it's not a SACS gun. Nor is it the Vickers Elite.

Don't get me wrong though, I think Springfield Armory has a real winner there.

[HCM]

Why wouldn't the SA Vickers master class be a contender?
Even if you wanted to tweak it to make it a little more custom, it would be a heck of a base gun for later.

ETA: At the Vicker's Master Class price point, I'm tempted to buy one, that way I have something to play with while I wait my turn at a custom smith's.

You mean besides the fact that they aren’t even in the wild yet ?

Regardless of how well (or not) LAV spec’ed it SA custom / distributor runs like this have been very much hit or miss.

Do a PF search for the Lipseys Combat Operator and for issues with tins of the SACS Warren Operator.

I’m not an SA hater, my favorite 1911 is TRP with some Actions by T work but my SA 1911 experiences have been sometimes you get a good one and sometimes you don’t.

[nightstalker865]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200702/eb4fbc5afbd32fc7f5c58c134e75e641.jpg

My Wilson is up over 2000rds now without a single hiccup. I wouldn’t hesitate to buy another one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wvincent]

You mean besides the fact that they aren’t even in the wild yet ?

Regardless of how well (or not) LAV spec’ed it SA custom / distributor runs like this have been very much hit or miss.

Do a PF search for the Lipseys Combat Operator and for issues with tins of the SACS Warren Operator.

I’m not an SA hater, my favorite 1911 is TRP with some Actions by T work but my SA 1911 experiences have been sometimes you get a good one and sometimes you don’t.

Big question, would you buy one?

[JSGlock34]

During the last 10 minutes of his Ballistic Radio interview, Jason Burton of Heirloom Precision gives his thoughts on 1911s at various price points. Well worth the listen.

Ballistic Radio: TWO World Wars! (http://ballisticradio.com/2019/06/04/two-world-wars-podcast-season-7-ballistic-radio-episode-296-may-19th-2019/)

[HCM]

Big question, would you buy one?

Only with the understanding that the odds of getting a gun that is good to go are 50/50.

Honestly I don’t see myself buying another iron cited 1911. I have a Springfield operator with armor on layaway at a local shop But I am going into it with the knowledge that if the gun has issues I either need to dump it or put a grand into it.

If you want a GTG gun from SA you either get lucky or you pay the tarriff for a SACS gun.

[Tamara]

Honestly, part of me is starting to think that I really would be better off sticking with Glock 21 Gen 4's/HK USP's in .45 Auto... I've known all along that is the practical thing to do...

Or you could just buy a G17/19

[Trooper224]

Only with the understanding that the odds of getting a gun that is good to go are 50/50.

Honestly I don’t see myself buying another iron cited 1911. I have a Springfield operator with armor on layaway at a local shop But I am going into it with the knowledge that if the gun has issues I either need to dump it or put a grand into it.

If you want a GTG gun from SA you either get lucky or you pay the tarriff for a SACS gun.

I'd say the 50/50 comment is spot on. My last two SAs were two Ranger Officers, one in .45 and one in 9mm. I bought the .45 as a baseline competition gun. I added a few mods and shot the piss out of it for years. It had a great trigger right out of the box and ran like a top for many thousands of rounds. It was also shockingly accurate. I worn it out and then rebuilt it and shot it some more before finally sending it down the road. I can honestly say I got more than my monies worth out of that one. I still have the 9mm as my wife quickly took to it as her favorite. It's trigger was initially crap, but the price was right and a trigger job was easily accomplished. I set it up as a twin to the .45. It's accurate and quite reliable. I've honestly been surprised on the latter point. I have to admit I've neglected its maintenance over the last several years, really just lubing it up when my wife wanted to go shooting. Now that I'm back to the 1911 for awhile I've been using it for training, so I finally cleaned it for the first time last week. Both guns had the typical SA extractor, that is to say a shitty extractor with a poorly shaped hook. The .45 got a new one fairly early on, but I took a close look at the 9mm for the first time last week and to be honest, I'm surprised it functions reliably. Being a training/fun gun, it will get a new one when it finally stops functioning. Both guns have the typical labor cutting moves by SA, plunger tubes and ejectors secured by locktite rather than staked or pinned, etc. If I was going to stake the integrity of my meat sack on an SA it would be something on the Operator/TRP level. Everything else they make is in fun/game gun territory, in my opinion.

[45dotACP]

It's funny that I jump on the "you'll pay for a quality 1911" dogpile, because until I cut the boys at Alchemy a check this...August I think...literally not a single one of my 1911s that I bought was over $1000.

Hell, excluding the guns I built, the Alchemy Prime will be worth more than my current 4 gun 1911 stable combined.

Yet I've got guns in there that have literally never had a malfunction. My current competition gun is a Springfield RO (which I got used. For 450 bucks), it failed the 10-8 test, so I measured extractor tension, adjusted it, then ran the 10-8 test again, which it passed. A solid Harrison rear sight replaced the shitty adjustable (which was yeeted into the sky never to return), and it is a literal tank now. I ran about 650 rounds through it in a class without lube or cleaning and that's probably the most rounds I've ever fired through a gun without ever lubing it. I have shot it in numerous competitions, drilled with it on the range. I don't know the round count, but I've used up dozens of boxes of SNS cast 230 gr RNL projectiles, and quite a few pounds of powder with that gun. I basically just replace the recoil and firing pin spring at the start of every competition season in April, and when I do that, I detail strip, check for wiggly parts and cracked stuff and replace as needed. So far, nothing is broken. Since passing the 10-8 test, it hasn't had a malfunction.

My RRA poly, I just skipped the foreplay and set the extractor first. It has less of a round count, as a carry gun, but I've put probably 200 rounds of 230gr HST +p through it and a few thousand rounds of the same handloads I make for my competition gun. As a carry gun, I inspect it every few months, keep it lubed and shoot it less frequently. It also passes the 10-8 test on demand. It has never malfunctioned.

The 9mms have been a little more trouble some, but they seem to have made peace with me.

I don't completely trust the Colt and probably will sell it. It still struggles with the 10-8 test and the numerous problems I had with it from the start have probably soured me on the brand that was once considered to be THE GUN to get if you were into 1911s. It's one of those guns like the OP mentions. It'll get to right around a thousand rounds and then choke. It's finicky about mags and just a drama queen. I dislike it quite a bit now actually and haven't shot it in months.

The Kimber passes the 10-8 test handily. It didn't have correct extractor deflection at first and the first two FTE I had with it happened within the first five rounds. I was changing parts immediately. I bought it used. Likely it's previous owner didn't want to deal with an unreliable gun. You can tell it has "barrel bump" too from unfinished lower lug fitting. Likely explains why it isn't as accurate as some of my other 9mm handguns. So far the lugs remain intact with no cracks and I tolerate it. If they begin to fail, I'll fit a new barrel. The reliability fix was easy. I swapped the extractor (to a Wilson or an Ed Brown...I forget which) set correct deflection, and the gun has run like a raped ape over the past few thousand rounds that either myself or my brother has run through it in competition.


See, you don't need an expensive gun to get one that runs, but for me, almost every gun had something to fix. Some had several. And the process of learning that came through a time investment of me learning to do stuff. Online research, hours in the work bench with sandpaper and jeweler files, and no small amount of frustration.

(All of this I learned from my very terrible idea of "Hey, as a complete novice to the 1911 pistol, I think it would be really cool to build one!" )

It was in fact, not really cool. It was miserable. Buuut, Obama had just been elected and nobody had ammo so what the hell else was I gonna do amirite?

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Trooper224]

During the last 10 minutes of his Ballistic Radio interview, Jason Burton of Heirloom Precision gives his thoughts on 1911s at various price points. Well worth the listen.

Ballistic Radio: TWO World Wars! (http://ballisticradio.com/2019/06/04/two-world-wars-podcast-season-7-ballistic-radio-episode-296-may-19th-2019/)

If I was going for a bespoke 1911 Jason would be at the top of my list. I think he's pretty spot on with his assessment. In terms of production guns my choices are Dan Wesson, Colt and Springfield Armory, in that order. DW makes the best offerings in the production class by far. The pistols Colt's been making in the last decade are as good as any they've ever made in terms of function and SA makes a pretty solid product overall. SAs aren't always perfect, but as Jason pointed out, they do a good job of staying within the proper specs. Consequently, it's far easier to repair or replace something, especially when you compare them to the "creative" specs companies like Kimber, S&W, Taurus, etc. often exhibit.

[RevolverRob]

But at the same time, I really really want one. I love the 1911 a lot, and I would be willing to spend the money and time to get one that is reliable enough to trust... I just wonder if I'd ever be able to trust it as I would a Glock or HK.

I mean...what do you view as "reliable enough to trust"?

That's the real question here and the most important one.

If you want 50,000 mean rounds between stoppages..forget it.

If you want 10,000 MRBS without cleaning, lubrication, or spring changes forget it.

If you want 10,000 MRBS with; lubrication every ~1000 rounds or 3-months, recoil spring changes every 5k rounds, and at least wiping the gun down once every 5k rounds...Then yea a 1911 can be "reliable enough to trust".

You might even get 50k MRBS with good lubrication, occasional cleaning, and recoil spring changes. But I suspect you're going to experience a need to replace an extractor, and/or have a magazine induced issues, and/or need to replace a firing pin stop, and/or replace a slide stop during that time. The 1911 design treats the firing pin stop and slide stop as effectively expendable parts with limited lifespans. While a properly fitted barrel will limit the wear on the slide stop and firing pin stop, it won't eliminate it.

Chances of getting TLG-tested HK45-like reliability (https://pistol-training.com/archives/4027) from a 1911, even a really good one, are approaching zero. You can spend 6000 bucks on the gun, but it ultimately won't go 12.5k between recoil spring changes, and it almost certainly won't go 50k without a part breaking. It's the nature of the beast.

[SiriusBlunder]

Or you could just buy a G17/19

Yep, but we've been exposed to the OP's anxiety about 9mm in his Doubts about 9mm (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39460-Doubts-about-9mm) thread.

Not to mention, Glocks and Limpwristing Concerns (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41828-Glocks-and-Limpwristing-Concerns) and Glock 21 Gen 4 Lack of Reliability/Durability (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39729-Glock-21-Gen-4-Lack-of-Reliability-Durability).

[Trooper224]

I think we're doing a good job of talking the OP out of God's Gun. :)

[HCM]

Or you could just buy a G17/19

All but one of the .GOV groups I’m aware of that actually “hard use” used “hard use” 1911’s (SA PROS) have replaced them with G17/19s.

[wvincent]

Yep, but we've been exposed to the OP's anxiety about 9mm in his Doubts about 9mm (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39460-Doubts-about-9mm) thread.

Not to mention, Glocks and Limpwristing Concerns (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41828-Glocks-and-Limpwristing-Concerns) and Glock 21 Gen 4 Lack of Reliability/Durability (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39729-Glock-21-Gen-4-Lack-of-Reliability-Durability).

F*ck me. I thought the OP's username tickled the back of my mind, but being a lazy ass I didn't do a search.

First clue you've been invited to a circle jerk, everyone's sitting around a pump bottle of Jerkins hand lotion.:rolleyes:

OTOH, a lot of the members here made this a very worthwhile thread.

[RevolverRob]

Here's the gun sitting on the nightstand right now. It's a <600 buck used Kimber TLE/RL II. I have no idea the round count on it when I bought it, it's an LE trade-in. I replaced all the springs in it, because...you know like buying a used car, change the oil and inspect it. I've shot ~1200'ish rounds through it without cleaning. I cleaned it when I bought it. I've lubed it two or three times in the past 2.5 years. I don't really know, I just kind of look at it and if it seems dry I shoot some silicone spray on it.

Like 45dotACP's Kimber, mine has the lower-lugs not perfectly fit. I don't really get barrel bump, but the gun is riding the link a bit, as evidenced by the wear pattern on the slide stop. The contact of the lower lugs is uneven on the slide-stop. I also am a bit undersized in the upper lugs, combined this gives me a bit of barrel hood play at lock-up. Whatever, this gun shoots ~2" groups with 230-grain ball and <2" groups with HST (1.79" currently being the best group) at 25-yards. So it's clearly not a problem. If the lower lugs crack, I'll just fit a Kart and drive on.

It has had zero malfunctions of any type with this gun, including an initial 150 on whatever springs the gun originally had in it when I bought it, with the suspect 7-round Kimber magazine the gun came with. It passed the 10-8 extractor test out of the gate, I've never even had the extractor out of the gun. In fact, I've never had the mainspring housing off of this gun. I just replaced the full length guide rod with a GI-style plug and guide rod setup and replaced all the stupid allen-head screws with proper flat ones. And I replaced the plunger tube spring and plungers, firing pin spring, and mag catch spring (when I replaced the allen-head mag catch lock with a slotted one), because maintenance.

This gun rides frequently on my hip in addition to on the nightstand. I trust it. If it breaks though, I know how to fix it. I don't need a $6k 1911 to have one that works...but if I'm spending the kind of coinage that buys a vacation for the wife and I on a gun, it damn sure better work. Which is to say, I kind of expect lower-end guns (<$1500 guns) to potentially need remedial work, but I expect >$3k guns to work right the fuck out of the gate and stay working as long as I maintain them.

56715

[wvincent]

Here's the gun sitting on the nightstand right now. It's a <600 buck used Kimber TLE/RL II. I have no idea the round count on it when I bought it, it's an LE trade-in. I replaced all the springs in it, because...you know like buying a used car, change the oil and inspect it. I've shot ~1200'ish rounds through it without cleaning. I cleaned it when I bought it. I've lubed it two or three times in the past 2.5 years. I don't really know, I just kind of look at it and if it seems dry I shoot some silicone spray on it.

Like 45dotACP's Kimber, mine has the lower-lugs not perfectly fit. I don't really get barrel bump, but the gun is riding the link a bit, as evidenced by the wear pattern on the slide stop. The contact of the lower lugs is uneven on the slide-stop. I also am a bit undersized in the upper lugs, combined this gives me a bit of barrel hood play at lock-up. Whatever, this gun shoots ~2" groups with 230-grain ball and <2" groups with HST (1.79" currently being the best group) at 25-yards. So it's clearly not a problem. If the lower lugs crack, I'll just fit a Kart and drive on.

It has had zero malfunctions of any type with this gun, including an initial 150 on whatever springs the gun originally had in it when I bought it, with the suspect 7-round Kimber magazine the gun came with. It passed the 10-8 extractor test out of the gate, I've never even had the extractor out of the gun. In fact, I've never had the mainspring housing off of this gun. I just replaced the full length guide rod with a GI-style plug and guide rod setup and replaced all the stupid allen-head screws with proper flat ones. And I replaced the plunger tube spring and plungers, firing pin spring, and mag catch spring (when I replaced the allen-head mag catch lock with a slotted one), because maintenance.

This gun rides frequently on my hip in addition to on the nightstand. I trust it. If it breaks though, I know how to fix it. I don't need a $6k 1911 to have one that works...but if I'm spending the kind of coinage that buys a vacation for the wife and I on a gun, it damn sure better work. Which is to say, I kind of expect lower-end guns (<$1500 guns) to potentially need remedial work, but I expect >$3k guns to work right the fuck out of the gate and stay working as long as I maintain them.

56715
You need to time those screw heads on the grip panels:D

[RevolverRob]

You need to time those screw heads on the grip panels:D

Man, I knew someone was gonna say something about that.

Like the Honey Badger - The 575 Dollar 1911 don't care.

This is like the rusty beater Honda I drove in college...It ain't much to look at, but it runs if I just keep putting oil and gas in it.

One of these days, I'll cut my check to Alchemy and then I'll care.

[TheNewbie]

What about the Colt CCU?

[Bucky]

I shouldn't have referred to my requirement as being "meet the 2k rounds challenge", because that requires no cleaning or maintenance. What I desire is a 1911 that can routinely and easily go at least 2k rounds between stoppages, but with normal cleaning/lubing at reasonable intervals. Yes I would like it to be able to go 2k rounds without cleaning/lube, but far more important to me is just being able to go 2k rounds without a stoppage assuming normal cleaning/lubrication.


With normal maintenance, that shouldn’t be too hard to find in a .45 ACP 1911. Heck, when I shoot them in competition I frequently exceed 2,000 rounds without cleaning and without issue, BUT. I do lube them every time before each match or practice session.

[Tamara]

Yep, but we've been exposed to the OP's anxiety about 9mm in his Doubts about 9mm (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39460-Doubts-about-9mm) thread.

Not to mention, Glocks and Limpwristing Concerns (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41828-Glocks-and-Limpwristing-Concerns) and Glock 21 Gen 4 Lack of Reliability/Durability (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39729-Glock-21-Gen-4-Lack-of-Reliability-Durability).

My, this place has certainly gotten very...gun forum-y...in my absence. :D

[JAD]

My, this place has certainly gotten very...gun forum-y...in my absence. :D

So I hear you saying you feel responsible and you’re going to help make it better.

[gato naranja]

I want to pull this sentence out of a bunch of excellent context. The Rock River and the Springfields I’ve had have all been like this, and very reliable.

I‘m always reluctant to chime in on 1911 threads, because #1, I’m no expert compared to many here, and #2, I know that what I’ll say next will have some folks looking at me like I have all the dicks growing out of my forehead. That said, I’m currently toting a Springer Mil-Spec that is literally box-stock, save for wolff springs, a Wilson bulletproof extractor, and a Wilson firing pin stop.

I am less of an expert on 1911s than you, but what the hell... this whole thread is an unexpected hoot.

Three out of three SA Range Officers I have shot enough to be able to say I know them well have worked quite nicely after nothing more than some deburring and/or a reasonable break-in. All three are 9mm 1911s, which 9 out of 10 guys named Jeff at the LGS will tell you are inherently unreliable and inaccurate. They were inexpensive to begin with, and two of the three were impulse buy, can't-pass-this-up deals to boot. Only one has found its "forever home," as a cat only needs so many "fun guns" that he does not intend to use for serious business (though I do believe the pick of the litter - a 5" all-steel Operator - would capably check that box as well). IOW, I/we* have had good luck with SA ROs chambered for the "Hun neun" in what might be normal civilian use... which is to say higher round counts but lower levels of dirt and knocks than my uncles put their GI 1911s through in 1944-1945.

Of the firearms I regret selling or trading off in my 45 years of looking for grass that is greener in the shooting game, only one of them was originally a high-dollar, bespoke gun. The rest have been off-the-rack things that the cognoscenti would not bother with. Not necessarily what Horace Kephart described as "guns that would bring only the price of scrap-iron in New York," but nothing that a cyclically undercapitalized household couldn't bear. These ROs demonstrated to me that they can be solid, durable performers despite their initial cost, though I may have gotten all the good ones... which would be rather remarkable considering my track record with lead-launching lemons.

*The "we" encompasses the spouse/CFO, who would cut off any genitalia sprouting from my forehead (or elsewhere) if I ventured too far into more expensive custom and semi-custom 1911s.

[Grey]

Man, I knew someone was gonna say something about that.

Like the Honey Badger - The 575 Dollar 1911 don't care.

This is like the rusty beater Honda I drove in college...It ain't much to look at, but it runs if I just keep putting oil and gas in it.

One of these days, I'll cut my check to Alchemy and then I'll care.

Wait a minute... You dont even own an Alchemy but you keep telling me to buy one... Hrmmm...

[Tamara]

Man, I knew someone was gonna say something about that.

Like the Honey Badger - The 575 Dollar 1911 don't care.

This is like the rusty beater Honda I drove in college...It ain't much to look at, but it runs if I just keep putting oil and gas in it.

One of these days, I'll cut my check to Alchemy and then I'll care.

As far as having a feature set I like, I would be ecstatic to stumble across a TLE/RL II that ran (ditto a railed Operator). It's just that, as noted upthread, a Kimber or SA has about a fifty-fifty chance of running right out of the the gate, or being just the entry fee to a thousand dollar project.

For $575, though? I'd probably roll those dice. Even if I lost the gamble, Kimber makes a frame/slide/barrel kit as good as anyone else does, after all.

[MGW]

SW CQB 45 off topic but have you viewed Hilton’s Duty Tune DVD? Wondering about your thoughts since you have been to his class.

[Hambo]

Unfortunately, the custom 1911 world is diminished with the passing of James Garthwaite yesterday.

https://www.tributearchive.com/obituaries/15980941/James-L-Garthwaite-Jr

Probably the most informative post in the thread, and definitely the saddest.

[SW CQB 45]

MGW

I have not seen his Duty Tune DVD. I took his class in 2012 located Liberty Hill, Texas so I am sure he has some updated info.

Back then he was planning on having a more advanced class but that never panned out.

Every now and then I run into an issue and having his video might be a good resource.

I saved my class notes, but I moved in 2017 and I have alot of stuff missing. my notes likely got thrown away or placed with some Christmas ornaments in a box that I have opened in years.

[Yung]

AJZ, what say you from your perspective and experience?

[vcdgrips]

Late to the party. Comments pertain to 5 inch, .45 all steel guns.

The two brands/models that I have seen that run from the box best have been Springfield and Dan Wesson.

The Springfield Professional as observed on FBI Regional SWAT guys over a number of training sessions.

I saw Dan Wesson 1911s hit the market in 05 or 06 as CZ has a corporate presence in my metro area. As such, I saw and competed against dozens of folks with them and saw those pistols run well with a fit and finish far above the price paid.


The general 1911 recs I make when asked:

>850 Ruger 5 inch
>1250 Springfield LB Operator
>1750 Dan Wesson Specialist
>2500 Springfield Professional
>3000 Wilson CQB


I suspect the new LV Springfield and any 5 inch DW 1911 in .45 would be just fine right out of the box as well.


As an aside, I know folks that have bought the very modest offerings from Springfield that have run well. I also have seen them not run well at all even with good mags and 230 FMJ> Springfield made them right, albeit with a trip or two back to the mother ship on SF's dime.

If I was in the market today for new, as I do not have a railed 1911, I would buy the LB Operator and not look back.

[MGW]

Fair point. Question: Should a Nighthawk be considered only if you know it was done by Bob? I do see they have a worked-over Colt series 70 that I love the simplicity of. I actually prefer a more GI-looking 1911, but reliability is top priority.

https://www.nighthawkcustom.com/pistols/1911s-government/colt-series70

Would this have as good of a chance of being combat-reliable out of the box as a quality 1911 worked over by one of the "Masters" 1911 'smiths?

I’ve been to NH and met Bob and several other of their gunsmiths. They’re all good to go.

[MGW]

To my senses that NH retro Colt is pure sex. Filthy sex. It screams "BRING ME THE HEAD OF ALFREDO GARCIA!"

In email back and forth with I think "Bob" I learned that the match fit bushing will improve precision a fair bit over factory but not like a hard fit gun. I want one bad. Hell, for those looks I could see myself dropping a fair bit of money at a future date to upgrade precision to stupefying level. Hobby math and rationalization are my super powers.

You should look at a NH Thunder Ranch (http://https://thunderranchinc.com/thunder-ranch-combat-special-by-nighthawk-custom/). My credit card was in serious danger.

[RevolverRob]

Wait a minute... You dont even own an Alchemy but you keep telling me to buy one... Hrmmm...

Junior Vice President of Enabling here.

I’ll always spend your money before I spend mine.

That said, I shot this year’s Alchemy wad on a Rattler and reloading setup...

[GlorifiedMailman]

Late to the party. Comments pertain to 5 inch, .45 all steel guns.

The two brands/models that I have seen that run from the box best have been Springfield and Dan Wesson.

The Springfield Professional as observed on FBI Regional SWAT guys over a number of training sessions.

I saw Dan Wesson 1911s hit the market in 05 or 06 as CZ has a corporate presence in my metro area. As such, I saw and competed against dozens of folks with them and saw those pistols run well with a fit and finish far above the price paid.


The general 1911 recs I make when asked:

>850 Ruger 5 inch
>1250 Springfield LB Operator
>1750 Dan Wesson Specialist
>2500 Springfield Professional
>3000 Wilson CQB


I suspect the new LV Springfield and any 5 inch DW 1911 in .45 would be just fine right out of the box as well.


As an aside, I know folks that have bought the very modest offerings from Springfield that have run well. I also have seen them not run well at all even with good mags and 230 FMJ> Springfield made them right, albeit with a trip or two back to the mother ship on SF's dime.

If I was in the market today for new, as I do not have a railed 1911, I would buy the LB Operator and not look back.

Thanks. Yeah, the Springfield Professional seems to get good praise almost universally. Does anyone know if the FBI HRT still uses them, or have they since moved on?

Sorry if this thread annoys some people. I'm just trying to gain knowledge. I love my G19's and G21's and have the utmost confidence in them, but I feel like I'll always have an itch for a good hard use 1911 until I get one.

[vcdgrips]

It is my inference that HRT has moved away from the 1911 to Glock 9mm platforms based on the regional guys I see in the office. IIRC, they actually moved to the Glock first and then 1911 came out of the field. Leading by example so to speak.


Minor thread drift-When the 1911 was the platform, some HRT guys carried a G21SF because of more BBs and a rail based on the comments from the former ASAC here that was HRT. Toward the end of the SF Pro utilization by FBI HRT and FBI Regional SWAT (and USMS SOG who piggybacked off the contract) the railed model was an issued item.

[JHC]

You should look at a NH Thunder Ranch (http://https://thunderranchinc.com/thunder-ranch-combat-special-by-nighthawk-custom/). My credit card was in serious danger.

Very nice and more shooters features yes. Doesn't rile me up like the Colt though. ;)

[HCM]

Thanks. Yeah, the Springfield Professional seems to get good praise almost universally. Does anyone know if the FBI HRT still uses them, or have they since moved on?

Sorry if this thread annoys some people. I'm just trying to gain knowledge. I love my G19's and G21's and have the utmost confidence in them, but I feel like I'll always have an itch for a good hard use 1911 until I get one.

FBI HRT and Regional SWAT haven’t used the SA PRO in several years.

SWAT Agents with grandfathered Personally owned PROs can still carry them during normal duties but they are no longer issued or approved for SWAT use. They were replaced with green framed Gen 4 G17s with factory minus connectors prior to the FBI’s general transition to 9mm.

HRT operates on Fight Club rules but allegedly they went to G22s then 17/19s long before the rest of the Bureau and are currently running 9mm Glocks with red dots.

Other DOJ special units also used or allowed SA PROs off theFBI/DOJ contract. They have been replaced with 9mm Glocks, some with red dots or in the case of USMS, 2011s with red dots.

[MGW]

Very nice and more shooters features yes. Doesn't rile me up like the Colt though. ;)

I completely get it. Hard to argue with a worked over classic like the NH Colt. I haven't found one in captivity yet.

[TC215]

HRT operates on Fight Club rules but allegedly they went to G22s then 17/19s long before the rest of the Bureau and are currently running 9mm Glocks with red dots.

There were some G21's thrown in there before the 9mm transition, from my understanding.

[Totem Polar]

Very nice and more shooters features yes. Doesn't rile me up like the Colt though. ;)

If looks were all that mattered, that Nighthawk series 70 touch up would be Catherine Deneuve in her prime.

[HCM]

There were some G21's thrown in there before the 9mm transition, from my understanding.

Could be. They are very tight with a certain premiere Army SF unit and tend to model their choices.

G21s are still around as grandfathered POWs for use like the Pros.

[TC215]

Could be. They are very tight with a certain premiere Army SF unit and tend to model their choices.

G21s are still around as grandfathered POWs for use like the Pros.

At one point the plan was to remove all .45's from the POW list, but that's either been dropped or just slow to implement.

[JSGlock34]

At one point the plan was to remove all .45's from the POW list, but that's either been dropped or just slow to implement.

I suspect the .45 ammo will dry up before long...

[Corse]

Wait a minute... You dont even own an Alchemy but you keep telling me to buy one... Hrmmm...

I’ll say buy one, and I actually do own one.

[HCM]

I suspect the .45 ammo will dry up before long...

.45 ammo will never dry up completely- got to feed the Thompson’s for the Citizebs Academy Range day. ;-)

[JSGlock34]

FBI HRT and Regional SWAT haven’t used the SA PRO in several years.

SWAT Agents with grandfathered Personally owned PROs can still carry them during normal duties but they are no longer issued or approved for SWAT use. They were replaced with green framed Gen 4 G17s with factory minus connectors prior to the FBI’s general transition to 9mm.

HRT operates on Fight Club rules but allegedly they went to G22s then 17/19s long before the rest of the Bureau and are currently running 9mm Glocks with red dots.

Other DOJ special units also used or allowed SA PROs off theFBI/DOJ contract. They have been replaced with 9mm Glocks, some with red dots or in the case of USMS, 2011s with red dots.
The HRT Pros were pretty cool (note the serial number). This photo is from the Vicker's Guide.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/554a80bee4b0b28e6f87f115/55e2552ce4b045a4102b1566/55e4f6b8e4b009a63eb13b17/1441068729295/DSC_3831-Edit-Edit-Edit-Edit.jpg?format=1000w

[GlorifiedMailman]

Could be. They are very tight with a certain premiere Army SF unit and tend to model their choices.

G21s are still around as grandfathered POWs for use like the Pros.

There were/are G21's used by a premiere Army SF unit? Interesting.

[farscott]

FBI HRT and Regional SWAT haven’t used the SA PRO in several years.

SWAT Agents with grandfathered Personally owned PROs can still carry them during normal duties but they are no longer issued or approved for SWAT use. They were replaced with green framed Gen 4 G17s with factory minus connectors prior to the FBI’s general transition to 9mm.

HRT operates on Fight Club rules but allegedly they went to G22s then 17/19s long before the rest of the Bureau and are currently running 9mm Glocks with red dots.

Other DOJ special units also used or allowed SA PROs off theFBI/DOJ contract. They have been replaced with 9mm Glocks, some with red dots or in the case of USMS, 2011s with red dots.

I wonder what happens to all of those issued Professionals that are no longer issued and/or approved. Are they still in arms rooms? Did they get returned to SA? God forbid, destroyed?

[GJM]

It would be interesting to take a dozen of these hard use 1911 pistols, take them new out of the box, and run 2,000 rounds of standard pressure HST 230 grain ammo through each of them. Then take six HK45 and six HK USP FS pistols, repeat the same 2,000 rounds each, and compare results.

[JAD]

It would be interesting to take a dozen of these hard use 1911 pistols, take them new out of the box, and run 2,000 rounds of standard pressure HST 230 grain ammo through each of them. Then take six HK45 and six HK USP FS pistols, repeat the same 2,000 rounds each, and compare results.

If I was free to lube— like I am in real life — I’d expect similar results. Wet 1911s run like raped apes.

[HCM]

There were/are G21's used by a premiere Army SF unit? Interesting.

The G21 comment was in refrence to FBI use.

[Navin Johnson]

Thanks. Yeah, the Springfield Professional seems to get good praise almost universally. Does anyone know if the FBI HRT still uses them, or have they since moved on?

Sorry if this thread annoys some people. I'm just trying to gain knowledge. I love my G19's and G21's and have the utmost confidence in them, but I feel like I'll always have an itch for a good hard use 1911 until I get one.

Your previous threads about 9 mm and Glock 21s seem to contradict this statement. Could you enlighten us as to when you became very confident in the 9 mm and the Glock 21 and how that transition occurred. Thanks.

[MGW]

It would be interesting to take a dozen of these hard use 1911 pistols, take them new out of the box, and run 2,000 rounds of standard pressure HST 230 grain ammo through each of them. Then take six HK45 and six HK USP FS pistols, repeat the same 2,000 rounds each, and compare results.

I guess it’s not really an apples to apples comparison but Todd’s Warren and HK45 long term test we’re pretty telling. My guess is a similar 1911 in 45 would have about half as many stoppages as the 9mm Warren but still more than the HK. I love 1911’s but they’re kind of like race cars. You gotta know what you’re looking for to head off problems.

I really miss Todd’s long term test journals.

[Trooper224]

It would be interesting to take a dozen of these hard use 1911 pistols, take them new out of the box, and run 2,000 rounds of standard pressure HST 230 grain ammo through each of them. Then take six HK45 and six HK USP FS pistols, repeat the same 2,000 rounds each, and compare results.

I think we all know what the results would be.

[GJM]

I think we all know what the results would be.

Based on Todd’s test and my personal experience, I have a good idea how the HK pistols would do, but I am interested in what the 1911 numbers would be. I have had some really good 1911 pistols, and some dogs, but here we would be using those 1911 pistols considered best in class.

[HCM]

I wonder what happens to all of those issued Professionals that are no longer issued and/or approved. Are they still in arms rooms? Did they get returned to SA? God forbid, destroyed?

They are GOV property so they won't go back to SA. There are still some in arms rooms but they (the GOV issue)are no longer authorized for field use. At least some will be retained for historical purposes, citizen's academy shoots etc.

The only .45s still approved are grandfathered, previously approved personally owned PROs and G21s.

[45dotACP]

Based on Todd’s test and my personal experience, I have a good idea how the HK pistols would do, but I am interested in what the 1911 numbers would be. I have had some really good 1911 pistols, and some dogs, but here we would be using those 1911 pistols considered best in class.


Running 2000 rounds of duty ammo through a correctly set up gun is chump change.

It's interesting you mention H&K pistols, because they actually have a good bit in common with 1911s. Namely that they're tremendously accurate, have something of a cult following among the cognoscenti, and for all intents and purposes, will do nothing that can't be done by a cheaper gun.

(Runs/hides)

[emoji6]

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[JSGlock34]

I haven't seen a great deal of 1911 reliability testing data. The most recent - and quite likely the last - were the 2011 Marine Corps CQBP trials. Honestly, they were not confidence inspiring.

In my own experience, polymer guns have it all over the 1911 in a 2,000 round challenge. Personally, I've accepted that a 1911 requires more frequent maintenance than a Glock (or HK) to remain dependable.

5.3 ENDURANCE TEST
5.3.1 System Reliability
This test was conducted to determine the reliability of the UUTs at standard ambient temperature (77 ± 18∞F), as well as cold (-25∞F) and hot (120∞F). New bid samples were used for this
test. This test was conducted on UUTs 11B11, 11B12, 11B14, and 11B15. Originally, 11B13 started this test, but it experienced an unusual failure early on which led to the pistol being unserviceable (see below for more details). It was removed from this test, and 11B15 took its place. A total of 48,000 rounds (12,000 per UUT) were fired for this test for record. This test
was scheduled for 60,000 rounds total, but cracked slides led to an early finish to the test. See results in 5.3.1.2 for more information.
5.3.1.1 Test Procedure
Three shooters rotated through the UUTs firing the following:
∑ 5,000 rounds at standard ambient (77 ± 18∞F)
∑ 1,000 rounds at -25∞F
∑ 3,000 rounds at 120∞F, and
∑ 3,000 additional rounds at standard ambient (77 ± 18∞F)
Shooting was conducted at a rate of 2-3 magazines per minute, and cleaning of the UUTs was performed every 300 rounds. Each UUT was assigned 22 magazines for this test, and the 22 magazines were loaded twice during each 300 round firing cycle. UUTs were conditioned at
the hot and cold temperatures for a minimum of 3 hours prior to firing, and then reconditioned
if removed from the environment (e.g. for cleaning during cold firing). AN/PEQ-6A Integrated Laser Light Pointers were mounted to the UUTs 50% of the time. They were mounted/removed at every cleaning cycle. Trigger pull and dispersion were measured every 3,000 rounds (see 5.3.2 and 5.3.3), and Non-Destructive Testing was performed prior to firing and after 6,000 rounds fired (see 5.3.4).
5.3.1.2 Results
UUT 11B13 only fired 600 rounds before it became unserviceable due to its recoil spring
binding with something internally and not allowing the slide to cycle. The spring binding during operation of the UUT caused the recoil spring to receive a significant permanent bend in it (see Figure 3). This also caused the recoil spring guide to become damaged to the point of being unusable (see Figure 4). No spare recoil spring guides were provided by Colt, so a decision was made to remove 11B13 from this test and to replace it with 11B15. The rounds fired from UUT 11B13 are not included in the results of this test.
UUTs 11B11, 11B12, 11B14, and 11B15 each fired 12,000 rounds before being deadlined due to visible safety-critical cracks found in the slides (see Figure 5 through Figure 9). Each slide had cracks in the same location, but they varied in size.
The reliability results presented here are preliminary and subject to failure scoring conducted by the source selection evaluation board. Detailed information on all reliability failures and preliminary scoring by the test activity is provided in Appendix A: Reliability Test Data. The numbers presented in the tables below are based on this preliminary scoring.
Table 1. Total Failures
Class I Class II Class III
84 2 18
Table 2. Class I Failures by Type SLR FEJ FFD FTC
15 1 60 8
SLR = Slide Locked to the Rear
FEJ = Failure to Eject
FFD = Failure to Feed
FTC = Failure to Chamber
Table 3. Class I Failures by UUT
11B11 11B12 11B14 11B15
3 15 26 40
Below is a summary of broken or cracked components produced as a result of this reliability test: ∑ 6 broken slide stops
5 broken ejectors (legs sheared)
4 cracked slides
3 broken thumb safeties
2 broken front sights
1 cracked frame at the accessory rail
1 broken extractor
1 broken plunger tube (legs sheared)

5.3.1.3 Test Observations
The following are some test observations made during the reliability test effort.
1) Roughly 10 times more Class I failures were experienced when no accessory was mounted to the UUTs vs. when the AN/PEQ-6As were mounted.
2) Operators noted that the recoil from the UUTs was noticeably sharper and/or heavier than the recoil from the current MEU(SOC) .45 pistol. Most attributed this to a weak recoil
spring.
3) There were a few instances of UUTs with high Class I failure rates that were corrected by replacing the recoil spring with a new one (UUTs 11B14 and 11B15).
4) After firing 150 rounds, the recoil springs reduced in length from 7.32 inches to 6.46 inches. After 450 rounds, the recoil springs measured approximately 6.38 inches in
length. After 4,500 rounds, the recoil springs measured approximately 5.94 inches in
length.
5) On multiple occasions when replacing the recoil spring with a new one, the new recoil spring would kink and bind the slide so that it would not cycle (similar to what occurred
with UUT 11B13). Pulling out the new spring would reveal that it had received a
permanent bend as a result of this binding (see Figure 10). Depending on the severity
of the set in the spring, some of the ìnewî recoil springs had to be replaced again
without ever firing a round so that the slide could move without binding. The assembly procedure used by the personnel replacing the recoil springs was verified to be as
specified in Coltís provided Armorerís manual, so this was not attributed to operator
error.
6) After a few thousand rounds through each UUT, grip screws began to loosen regularly and required retightening. In addition, three grip screw bushings had stripped out
completely from the receiver frame by the time the UUTs had completed their 12,000
rounds fired.
7) Eighteen AN/PEQ-6As broke during this test. The UUTs with the highest Class I failure rates also tended to have the highest rates for breaking AN/PEQ-6As.
8) The UUTs with the highest Class I failure rates had the most severe slide cracks.
9) UUT 11B12 had a crack which developed in the receiver at the accessory rail (see Figure 11). This crack was discovered after firing 9,000 rounds. The crack was determined not
to be safety critical at its current length, so firing continued with this UUT.
10) Recoil spring plugs on three of the UUTs were cracked by 12,000 rounds (see Figure 12 through Figure 14). The cracks had no apparent effect on the performance of the UUTs
to this point.
11) Magazines were filled 80 times each during this test, and none were replaced due to unserviceability.

[wvincent]

Based on Todd’s test and my personal experience, I have a good idea how the HK pistols would do, but I am interested in what the 1911 numbers would be. I have had some really good 1911 pistols, and some dogs, but here we would be using those 1911 pistols considered best in class.

Yeah, you have fun defining those best in class.
It'll be 50+ pages, first moved to the Romper Room, and then ending as a locked thread.:D

[Robinson]

This old thread contains some info on hard-use 1911s including some comments from a SME who knows some stuff. The thread contains some links to another forum on which the same SME posted a bunch of info and pictures of a hard-use M45A1 Marine pistol. The SME is not a 1911 or Colt fanboy, just a Marine who has put the 1911 through hard use and recorded some of the results.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22826-Colt-thread-on-another-forum&highlight=m45a1

[JohnK]

This old thread contains some info on hard-use 1911s including some comments from a SME who knows some stuff. The thread contains some links to another forum on which the same SME posted a bunch of info and pictures of a hard-use M45A1 Marine pistol. The SME is not a 1911 or Colt fanboy, just a Marine who has put the 1911 through hard use and recorded some of the results.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22826-Colt-thread-on-another-forum&highlight=m45a1

There is also a Springfield Operator at over 140K through the gun and a Colt government with over 200K through it with semi-regular updates on M4Carbine.net that Ned Christiansen services at somewhat regular intervals - and by services, it seems that he sees it once or twice per year to see if anything needs to be touched up.

[JAH 3rd]

I own 2 1911s government models, a SA loaded and a DW A2. Both have been 100% reliable. But I don't "hard use" them.....I shoot them, clean them and repeat another day. The thing about the 1911, for me, is they are not a plug and play platform. Fitting parts replacement parts takes knowledge of how the parts interact with each other. But as others have said, a great single-action trigger just pulls you into the platform. My DW A2 trigger pull is so crisp and light that I don't even remotely feel the need to modify it. The SA trigger pull is excellent for self-defense carry. It's a bit heavier than the DW, but breaks clean with no sight picture upset as I pull the trigger.

Here is what always is in the back of my mind when talking 1911s. We all read about how "my 1911" works with this part and not that part......thinking mags and extractor here, but not exclusively. We monkey with springs which affect reliability. We talk about lug engagement, ejector length/angle, and the fitment of barrel feet. I say all this from the aspect of how parts interact and their effect on reliability. Plus lots of different firearm manufacturers make the 1911.....and their expertise in the manufacture of the pistol with quality parts and assembly can vary.

So if I was going to pick a .45 acp pistol to use for self-defense it would probably be my S&W full-size M&P 2.0. But the DW A2 has been a fine performer and it would be the one to send to a gunsmith for a once over and any reliability upgrades.

[JohnK]

To add further, my friend USMC0802 has a Baer TRS that has around 39,000 through it. And has a Baer Custom Carry with around 15K through it and my other friend (his brother) has a UTC with 13K through his. Not to be a wiseass, but sometimes people just get these guns and don't worry about hard use specifically... And just use them hard. And if something breaks, they just send whatever they need to for a replacement part. No big deal. I do that same. That is the benefit of having multiples.

[JSGlock34]

High round count 1911s don't do much for me. Does anyone doubt that the all-steel 1911 pistol is durable? How many times did PWS rebuild those MEUSOC M45 frames?

A 1911 with quality small parts is going to last a long time. Whether it runs well? Different question entirely.

I think Larry Vickers sums it up nicely.

How do I know if a 1911 is the right choice for me?
That is a tough question as I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn’t mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If, however, you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers, then don’t get a 1911 –- use a Glock. If you want a very nice 1911 that runs out of the box, get a Wilson Combat.

[RevolverRob]

Running 2000 rounds of duty ammo through a correctly set up gun is chump change.

It's interesting you mention H&K pistols, because they actually have a good bit in common with 1911s. Namely that they're tremendously accurate, have something of a cult following among the cognoscenti, and for all intents and purposes, will do nothing that can't be done by a cheaper gun.

(Runs/hides)



Well...

Except you can be reasonably sure the HK is going to work and put the bullets where you want - where I'm not sure you can reasonably say that about a Gen4 Glock or a 1.0 M&P9...

Of course now with Gen5s and 2.0s...things have gotten markedly better. But the HK cognoscenti will smugly note...while Glocks and M&Ps were busily throwing brass at your face and keyholing at 15 yards...those USPs, P2000s, HK45s, and P30s were chugging right along...:p

Meanwhile the 1911 Boomers are still hanging on, "Two World Wars and two dozen other military actions across the globe. Killin' Nazis and Commies by the buttload!"

[Trooper224]

Well...

Except you can be reasonably sure the HK is going to work and put the bullets where you want - where I'm not sure you can reasonably say that about a Gen4 Glock or a 1.0 M&P9...

Of course now with Gen5s and 2.0s...things have gotten markedly better. But the HK cognoscenti will smugly note...while Glocks and M&Ps were busily throwing brass at your face and keyholing at 15 yards...those USPs, P2000s, HK45s, and P30s were chugging right along...:p

Meanwhile the 1911 Boomers are still hanging on, "Two World Wars and two dozen other military actions across the globe. Killin' Nazis and Commies by the buttload!"

A 1911 doesn't kill, it harvests souls.

[Trooper224]

High round count 1911s don't do much for me. Does anyone doubt that the all-steel 1911 pistol is durable? How many times did PWS rebuild those MEUSOC M45 frames?

A 1911 with quality small parts is going to last a long time. Whether it runs well? Different question entirely.

I think Larry Vickers sums it up nicely.

How do I know if a 1911 is the right choice for me?
That is a tough question as I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn’t mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If, however, you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers, then don’t get a 1911 –- use a Glock. If you want a very nice 1911 that runs out of the box, get a Wilson Combat.

Pretty much this. If you like working on and maintaining things the 1911 may be for you. I don't use the term "tinker" because that has a different connotation. Sometimes we tinker when we should leave well enough alone. Like: why send a 1911 in for some smiths "reliabilty" package when the gun is running fine? If you think a fun Saturday afternoon is spent in the garage working on your GTO, you may be a 1911 person. On the other hand, if you just want to jump in your Honda Civic and go, you're probably in the Glock column.

Finally, there are those who just feel the innate John Wayne need for a "hard use 1911" who might be best advised to simply leave well enough alone.

[Wondering Beard]

A 1911 doesn't kill, it harvests souls.

Especially if it's a 10mm Delta Elite.

[RevolverRob]

A 1911 doesn't kill, it harvests souls.

It's not nice to talk about Duke and how an STI stole his soul...:eek: (Sorry Duke, buddy. Love 'ya).

[Trooper224]

It's not nice to talk about Duke and how an STI stole his soul...:eek: (Sorry Duke, buddy. Love 'ya).

No disparaging Duke here. We're talking about real 1911s, not new age hipster jewelry. :)

[wvincent]

No disparaging Duke here. We're talking about real 1911s, not new age hipster jewelry. :)

Are you really gonna go there?;)

[wvincent]

It's not nice to talk about Duke and how an STI stole his soul...:eek: (Sorry Duke, buddy. Love 'ya).

Duke? Are you talking about the same Duke who was banging the hottest girl on earth (2011), and cruising around in a Lambo?
Who then dumped the hottest girl on earth(2011) and took up with that mousey little librarian, you know, with the glasses and the hair bun. In the flat shoes and below the knee skirts (S&W M&P)?
I can only surmise that he also traded the Lambo in for a Prius, started wearing cardigan sweaters, quit the gym and joined book club.;):eek::D

[Trooper224]

Are you really gonna go there?;)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/a2/bc/28a2bce5c3e98cb249949150b2ab7cb6.jpg

[03RN]

Ive had 4 springfields. 2 got sold or traded. All 4 have been fine. A few mag failures, a recoil spring broken and a loose plunger tube.

I typically loose track of round count for guns at around 5k. They all surpased that.

I couldn't ask for better results.

[RevolverRob]

Duke? Are you talking about the same Duke who was banging the hottest girl on earth (2011), and cruising around in a Lambo?
Who then dumped the hottest girl on earth(2011) and took up with that mousey little librarian, you know, with the glasses and the hair bun. In the flat shoes and below the knee skirts (S&W M&P)?
I can only surmise that he also traded the Lambo in for a Prius, started wearing cardigan sweaters, quit the gym and joined book club.;):eek::D

Dude...I know you ain’t hating on cardigans...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tqpovq49WHo/UD58brn16GI/AAAAAAAAAO0/rW_y4_e9M2s/s1600/Lawless+11394.jpg

[Patrick Taylor]

Well...

Except you can be reasonably sure the HK is going to work and put the bullets where you want - where I'm not sure you can reasonably say that about a Gen4 Glock or a 1.0 M&P9...

Of course now with Gen5s and 2.0s...things have gotten markedly better. But the HK cognoscenti will smugly note...while Glocks and M&Ps were busily throwing brass at your face and keyholing at 15 yards...those USPs, P2000s, HK45s, and P30s were chugging right along...:p

Meanwhile the 1911 Boomers are still hanging on, "Two World Wars and two dozen other military actions across the globe. Killin' Nazis and Commies by the buttload!"


I have seen one HK in a class, it was a .45 and it choked. The student did the 2nd day with a school rental Glock. Sample of one means nothing but it is the only HK I have seen in a class.

[Sawyer]

I think this whole question is overdone. Modern quality 1911’s built by reputable companies just don’t really have reliability issues anymore when properly maintained. I have several but the four I’ve shot the most over the past 5 years or so are a Wilson CQB, a Les Baer CC, a Springfield MC Operator, and a Springfield Long Beach Operator. The LB Operator is my work/do it all gun. It’s been through classes, bad weather exposure, a bunch of stuff. All guns are run primarily with Wilson ETM mags but an occasional Mecgar will slip in. Training Ammo is pretty much American Eagle 230 grain and operational is Federal 230 grain HST. None of the four of them have ever failed to go through their full functional cycle, with the exception of a couple failures to lock back that were traced back to an aging Wilson 47D that slipped into the rotation. I don’t know what better performance I could expect and aim certainly not my own armored.

[Bucky]

Dude...I know you ain’t hating on cardigans...



No one did it better than this.

56845

[Jason Burton]

In fairness I haven't read through this entire thread so if I’m repeating something already posted consider this a simple “+1”... or whatever the current vernacular is.

Reliability in a 1911 is actually pretty simple. Get a gun built correctly feed it in spec ammo out of quality magazines and it will work as well as anything else... no, really... it will. However, it takes more than just being assembled together from various bins of parts on an assembly line that is trying to meet a per/hour production quota. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done nor is that an indictment of assembly line production, but trying to do 1911 production in mass and at/to a price point can often times preclude the detail and time it takes to check and insure some aspects of the 1911 that need to be right. Not good, not bad, just is.

I have personally seen production and semi-custom 1911s at various price points that needed simple corrections to be at their optimal performance. Does that mean the platform is flawed, old, archaic, no longer viable, or not as good as “modern designs” (don’t even get me started on that descriptive phrase)? Nope... it just means it needs a knowledgable (or trained?) hand to put the gun together correctly and the available time to do it.

Also, part of the problem is managing expectations with reality... many consumers want greatness in the 1911 platform for the price of a Glock, not possible. And, in reality, trying to make a comparison of a $500 1911 to a $500 Glock is retarded; the guns are two different animals... not good, not bad, just is. There is only so much time and effort gun companies can invest in a $750-$800 1911 and still have the product be profitable. Thus we have 1911s at many different price points and one should generally assume that more expensive 1911 has two things going for it: better parts and more time insuring those parts work together correctly.

And while I’m at it let me just say this clearly: not all 1911 experience and “experts” are equal. I’ve been doing this professionally (as in I do this to feed my family) for 15 years now and I have been tinkering with the 1911 platform for at least 5 years before that... I both laugh and cringe at the things I did not once know or know how to do. So, if your in the market for a truly custom 1911 it behooves you to find a builder who has the knowledge, experience, and tools/equipment to do things the right way and/or fix things that aren’t right.

So to your core question of “what does it take to get a stone-cold reliable (at least 2k MRBS) 1911 for serious use these days?” The answer is it takes time... and time will always equate to money. My recommendation for all 1911 buyers is to first define your price point. From there it is easy to get recommendations within that price on what are good examples of 1911s to start with. Expectations have to be managed based on price... you should expect excellence out of a bespoke 1911 built by one man but not so much out of a $800 production gun. Consequently there will be a significant price difference and lead time between the two.

Lastly... and consider this some anecdotal personal experience... the gun pictured below was built by me around 2011. I did no frame and slide fitting on the gun but focused on building every other aspect of the pistol. I retired the gun at one point for a few years but, as I got more involved in IDPA, I began shooting the gun again. Between November of 2017 and April of 2019 I shot the gun pretty much exclusively putting between 13K and 14K round of 230gr hardball through the gun with no stoppages and no cleaning or disassembly. I only added oil as needed. In September of 2019 I discovered both the frame and slide were cracked (I actually new the frame was even before that) and in March of this year the original extractor finally gave out at over 50K rounds. Needless to say the gun works, is stupid accurate, and easy to shoot... but unfortunately it cost a bit more than a Glock. ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49654837628_41380dfbbf_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48771173181_969cec5cfa_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48771173351_bd978799b6_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49655377276_4b5e5eb108_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49655377206_53f81e40ba_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49655377166_bd2f80975a_c.jpg

[SW CQB 45]

Jason,

I am just a shooter and carry one in my duty rig.

Question

if you would have replaced the recoil spring at recommended round count intervals, do you think the pistol would have still cracked ?(based on the 13K in the less than 2 year time period)

thanks for the info

[JohnK]

Jason,

I am just a shooter and carry one in my duty rig.

Question

if you would have replaced the recoil spring at recommended round count intervals, do you think the pistol would have still cracked ?(based on the 13K in the less than 2 year time period)

thanks for the info

I'm not speaking for him but I could swear that I read somewhere that he was changing the recoil springs at normal service intervals. Somewhere between 2500-5K? Maybe im wrong.

I am just a shooter too and I go somewhere between 3-5,000 depending on how much dry fire I am doing. And I have started using shok-buffs in my training guns, definitely not in my carry gun(s)

[Jason Burton]

Question

if you would have replaced the recoil spring at recommended round count intervals, do you think the pistol would have still cracked ?(based on the 13K in the less than 2 year time period)

thanks for the info

Basically yes... I think the recoil spring of a proper weight can or might help to mitigate undue wear to include preventing cracks from occurring earlier than one might expect. However, I think a bigger variable to consider is square corners where there is impact force vs. radiused corners. Square corners present stress risers and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that had more to do with this gun cracking where it did and when it did. I've had other frames crack at lower round counts even with very diligent spring changes and I've seen other guns go longer with less than optimal spring maintenance... all shooting full power ammo.

It should be noted that during the time frame I mentioned in my previous post I was using a 18.5# recoil spring and a 23# mainspring. One of the benefits of the 18.5# recoil spring is that tend to last longer; basically meaning that at a high round count they still measure closer to the originally spec'd recoil spring weight of 16#.

I currently still shoot this gun a lot and the cracks have had no bearing on the gun working and being accurate. The only changes made are that I've recently gone back to using a 16# recoil spring and I installed a new Bar-Sto barrel about 6000 rounds ago.

[JonInWA]

I think this whole question is overdone. Modern quality 1911’s built by reputable companies just don’t really have reliability issues anymore when properly maintained. I have several but the four I’ve shot the most over the past 5 years or so are a Wilson CQB, a Les Baer CC, a Springfield MC Operator, and a Springfield Long Beach Operator. The LB Operator is my work/do it all gun. It’s been through classes, bad weather exposure, a bunch of stuff. All guns are run primarily with Wilson ETM mags but an occasional Mecgar will slip in. Training Ammo is pretty much American Eagle 230 grain and operational is Federal 230 grain HST. None of the four of them have ever failed to go through their full functional cycle, with the exception of a couple failures to lock back that were traced back to an aging Wilson 47D that slipped into the rotation. I don’t know what better performance I could expect and aim certainly not my own armored.

I'll buy what you are saying with a 5" bushing barrel Government 1911; in my experience, Commanders (in my case, exclusively 4.25 bushing barrelled) can be, shall we say, a bit of drama queen divas, with more tuning required-with tuning encompassing the gun intrinsically, the magazines, and the magazine components (followers, springs).

I think that the skill and abilities, and concurrent lack of turnover of a company's personnnel is an absolutely critical part of them being capable of turning our consistantly good 1911s. Management/owner vision, in terms of both the guns themselves and their company orientation and ethos are equally critical. Vendor component quality concurrently needs to be of intrinsic consistant high quality both materially and dimensionally-this factor is often ignorted because manufacturers tend to be pretty close-lipped about their external sourcings, but I don't think there's a single 1911 manufacturer who makes every component in-house-and I've long suspected that many are more assemblers than manufacturers...

Best, Jon

[RevolverRob]

Man, Jason Burton sums it up so well:


...it just means it needs a knowledgable (or trained?) hand to put the gun together correctly and the available time to do it.

Ultimately, this has been my experience with the 1911. If you can learn to do it correctly yourself, you can correct many of the flaws found in 'production' guns, with hand tools and time. However, if you do not have the time or inclination to learn to do it correctly, you should plan to write a check to someone who has done these things.

If you're going to write a check and make sure it's done right. You want to start with a SACs, Nighthawk, or Alchemy - each of those places have smiths with the requisite time and knowledge it takes to build a high quality 1911.

[SW CQB 45]

Basically yes... I think the recoil spring of a proper weight can or might help to mitigate undue wear to include preventing cracks from occurring earlier than one might expect. However, I think a bigger variable to consider is square corners where there is impact force vs. radiused corners. Square corners present stress risers and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that had more to do with this gun cracking where it did and when it did. I've had other frames crack at lower round counts even with very diligent spring changes and I've seen other guns go longer with less than optimal spring maintenance... all shooting full power ammo.

It should be noted that during the time frame I mentioned in my previous post I was using a 18.5# recoil spring and a 23# mainspring. One of the benefits of the 18.5# recoil spring is that tend to last longer; basically meaning that at a high round count they still measure closer to the originally spec'd recoil spring weight of 16#.

I currently still shoot this gun a lot and the cracks have had no bearing on the gun working and being accurate. The only changes made are that I've recently gone back to using a 16# recoil spring and I installed a new Bar-Sto barrel about 6000 rounds ago.

thanks Jason, I know you are a busy man and appreciate the responses.

Do you think high round count Operator frames with the beefier dust cover area is less prone to cracking? (the beefier part goes further back closer to the slide stop area)

JohnK..... I too am a buff user on training sessions.

https://i.imgur.com/H1AQVR2h.jpg

Also, I have been hard on my body through the years, wrenching in the oilfield, backyard mechanic, heavy working out and I developed serious wrist pain a couple of years ago when shooting a 1911 230 FMJ with 18.5 recoil spring. It was suggested to go back to 16 lbs recoil spring and change it more often as it might reduce the snap of the slide going back into battery. It actually worked and while I feel some pain in my right wrist, I am good past 500 rounds.

Was there a reason you went back to 16 lbs recoil spring with this piece?

thanks in advance

[Jason Burton]

Do you think high round count Operator frames with the beefier dust cover area is less prone to cracking? (the beefier part goes further back closer to the slide stop area)

Yes I do.




Was there a reason you went back to 16 lbs recoil spring with this piece?

The gun shoots flatter for me... and... well... I wanna' go fast... ;)

[farscott]

Yet Colt Rail Gun frames cracked very early in the M45 tests. From above on the M45 tests.


Below is a summary of broken or cracked components produced as a result of this reliability test:
6 broken slide stops
5 broken ejectors (legs sheared)
4 cracked slides
3 broken thumb safeties
2 broken front sights
1 cracked frame at the accessory rail
1 broken extractor
1 broken plunger tube (legs sheared)


5.3.1.3 Test Observations
The following are some test observations made during the reliability test effort.
1) Roughly 10 times more Class I failures were experienced when no accessory was mounted to the UUTs vs. when the AN/PEQ-6As were mounted.
2) Operators noted that the recoil from the UUTs was noticeably sharper and/or heavier than the recoil from the current MEU(SOC) .45 pistol. Most attributed this to a weak recoil
spring.
3) There were a few instances of UUTs with high Class I failure rates that were corrected by replacing the recoil spring with a new one (UUTs 11B14 and 11B15).
4) After firing 150 rounds, the recoil springs reduced in length from 7.32 inches to 6.46 inches. After 450 rounds, the recoil springs measured approximately 6.38 inches in
length. After 4,500 rounds, the recoil springs measured approximately 5.94 inches in length.
5) On multiple occasions when replacing the recoil spring with a new one, the new recoil spring would kink and bind the slide so that it would not cycle (similar to what occurred with UUT 11B13). Pulling out the new spring would reveal that it had received a permanent bend as a result of this binding (see Figure 10). Depending on the severity of the set in the spring, some of the new recoil springs had to be replaced again without ever firing a round so that the slide could move without binding. The assembly procedure used by the personnel replacing the recoil springs was verified to be as specified in Colt's provided Armorer's manual, so this was not attributed to operator error.

The slide cracks were attributed by some to stress risers from the sharp front cocking serrations, but the round count, on its own, when the cracks were noted did not seem high enough to warrant cracking. The location of the FCS resulted in the slide being very thin in that area. The frame crack was at the accessory rail. I would note that the material of the M45 test units was 410/416 stainless. I suspect a high carbon steel like 4140 would be much more resistant to notch failures.

I would also note that the tests showed issues with recoil springs and the GI spring guides binding. Felt recoil was noted by the shooters to be higher than existing pistols. All suggesting the recoil spring was not properly specified for the application.

That only points out that adding material in and of itself is not a panacea when it comes to 1911 frames and slide cracking. For me, a true high round count gun starts with major components made from carbon steel with springs properly specified for that pistol. I am not a 1911 smith of the stature of Mr. Burton, but I have seen two "identical" STI Trojans that needed two different recoil springs as one would throw the brass into the next county while the other using the same spring dumped empties into a pile onto a tarp about six feet away. Just an anecdote but educational.

[Oldherkpilot]

You need to time those screw heads on the grip panels:D

That's why Torx heads are the way to go!😁

[Robinson]

That's why Torx heads are the way to go!😁

Blasphemer!

[45dotACP]

That's why Torx heads are the way to go![emoji16]And people call me a heretic for carrying a plastic framed 1911....

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Oldherkpilot]

Blasphemer!

Perhaps, but nobody steals my fancy stocks using a dime! You want my stuff, you have to bring tools!

[SW CQB 45]

another flip side is carry cheap plastic and nobody will want these.

https://i.imgur.com/3hwBta8h.jpg


Some 15+ years ago, myself and another officer were sent to a Glock Instructor workshop. Dont laugh, but our Admin was so tight with ammo purchases.... they bought steel case Wolff as training ammo for our G21s.

This stuff was great for malfunction clearance.

We each had a 1000 rounds of .45 Wolff. I decided to leave my ammo on the range tables overnight and next morning... all of it was still there.

[JohnK]

another flip side is carry cheap plastic and nobody will want these.

https://i.imgur.com/3hwBta8h.jpg


Some 15+ years ago, myself and another officer were sent to a Glock Instructor workshop. Dont laugh, but our Admin was so tight with ammo purchases.... they bought steel case Wolff as training ammo for our G21s.

This stuff was great for malfunction clearance.

We each had a 1000 rounds of .45 Wolff. I decided to leave my ammo on the range tables overnight and next morning... all of it was still there.

Confession, I found some Wolf ammo that my brother had from years ago (about 150 rounds) and my TRP loved every bite.

[JonInWA]

The last time I tried Tula .45 ACP, not only did I notice performance variations from round to round, it was also some of the filthiest stuff I'd encountered. It did work, though-I don't recall encountering any malfunctions with it, but I'm in no rush to go back and re-try-even in these shortage times. Unless I absolutely have to... Wolf use I confined to their 9 x 18 Makarov and 7.62 x 39; that was definitely in their wheelhouse, and seems decent. Not sure if Wolf and Tula are from the same company/plants.

Best, Jon

[RevolverRob]

I have a bunch of Tula 9mm I bought circa...2012/2013/2014 during one of the Obama ammo droughts. I found it for a good price and bought 500 rounds of it. To date I've fired...about 50 of those rounds in what gun I can't remember, but there wasn't an issue.

The main reason I haven't shot it all is Tula uses a bi-metal jacket that is magnetic and the steel in the jacket is a no go at most of the indoor ranges where I shoot. It shoots fine and I haven't found any significant round-to-round variation, but I imagine that Tula's QC will vary from time-to-time. All of the ones I've randomly spot checked have passed the plunk test, so that's a generally good sign.

The stupid coating on the cases get burnt in the chamber and it is annoying to clean, but not impossible to get out. Choreboy and a powerdrill is a must if you're going to shoot a bunch of this stuff.

Once I find a good outdoor spot with a good berm, I'll dump the rest of it through my AR9 and move on.

[Arbninftry]

Mars THUG should meet your needs.
http://www.marsguns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index

I can second MARS, Steve does great work. I had an AXIOM built with a Kart Barrel and it has run flawless. He will build it the way you want it.

[Jason Burton]

... have seen two "identical" STI Trojans that needed two different recoil springs as one would throw the brass into the next county while the other using the same spring dumped empties into a pile onto a tarp about six feet away. Just an anecdote but educational.

Maybe more than anecdotal... what I find interesting about that statement is that the recoil spring likely had very little to do with the perceived problem. Changing the weight may have only served to mask the symptom described as the ejection pattern/distance difference from one gun to another. Which brings up a thought...

People are often frustrated by 1911s because there seems to be differing standards of what is right and applicable remedies for when things are thought to be wrong. At the same time many new 1911 owners use their previous experience with other pistol platforms (fairly enough) as a measure of what should be “normal” or “correct” on a 1911 when that standard or experience is not necessarily equatable from gun to gun. It’s often just with little things such as “how hard should it be to rack the slide” or “it’s hard to release the slide using the slide stop” or “how hard should it be to seat a magazine?” or “why do my grip screws come loose?” or "how much take-up should the trigger have?"

Point being that it's important to recognize that in some aspects the 1911 is different than other pistol platforms and than can be a source of confusion or frustration for a new 1911 owner and at time we use a false equation for what is correct or how to correct something we think is wrong. As a final thought, and to use your example, I’m often asked how far the gun should eject empty brass and my answer is always the same... out of the gun. I care very little if it’s 3 feet or 6 feet or 28 feet so long as it is reliably coming out of the gun and being properly controlled by the extractor.

[Joe]

Proper parts, proper assembly/fitting, proper magazine, proper ammo.
Brian Searcy of Pilot Mountain Arms built my pistol. Few thousand rounds of good 230gr Lawman and lube and it's just as boringly reliable as a polymer striker fired gun.
The phrase "you get what you pay for" rings true.

57045

[SW CQB 45]

Proper parts, proper assembly/fitting, proper magazine, proper ammo.
Brian Searcy of Pilot Mountain Arms built my pistol. Few thousand rounds of good 230gr Lawman and lube and it's just as boringly reliable as a polymer striker fired gun.
The phrase "you get what you pay for" rings true.

57045

is this his Operator Model?

thanks a cool piece!!!

[Joe]

is this his Operator Model?

It is but I asked for a few slight deviations (full length guide rod, fiber optic front sight, flat trigger, no markings on the slide).

[Evil_Ed]

Yet Colt Rail Gun frames cracked very early in the M45 tests. From above on the M45 tests.





The slide cracks were attributed by some to stress risers from the sharp front cocking serrations, but the round count, on its own, when the cracks were noted did not seem high enough to warrant cracking. The location of the FCS resulted in the slide being very thin in that area. The frame crack was at the accessory rail. I would note that the material of the M45 test units was 410/416 stainless. I suspect a high carbon steel like 4140 would be much more resistant to notch failures.

I would also note that the tests showed issues with recoil springs and the GI spring guides binding. Felt recoil was noted by the shooters to be higher than existing pistols. All suggesting the recoil spring was not properly specified for the application.

That only points out that adding material in and of itself is not a panacea when it comes to 1911 frames and slide cracking. For me, a true high round count gun starts with major components made from carbon steel with springs properly specified for that pistol. I am not a 1911 smith of the stature of Mr. Burton, but I have seen two "identical" STI Trojans that needed two different recoil springs as one would throw the brass into the next county while the other using the same spring dumped empties into a pile onto a tarp about six feet away. Just an anecdote but educational.



Ahh, but context is everything. The first iteration of rail guns Colt sent, had the area "under" the light rail in the dust cover milled out, causing the recoil spring system to buckle under recoil. It bent/broke the springs, caused massive amounts of battering, etc. See photo 5 here (https://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/20/marsoc-winning-colt-guns/). Note the big chunk of dust cover area missing...where they hollowed it out to save weight. Whoopsie. This was Colt "testing in production", as it were. This was fixed/not milled out in runs after, nor in the updated Rail Gun or CCU guns.

The forward slide serrations were definitely an issue, and it's why current Colts have the wider slide serrations in the front of the slide, ever since.

[M2CattleCo]

Confession, I found some Wolf ammo that my brother had from years ago (about 150 rounds) and my TRP loved every bite.

I used about 35 cases of 230 grain Wolf over two seasons of USPSA Single Stack in a Springfield built be Dave Williams.

I ran it with a 15lb recoil spring and cleaned it maybe every 7-10K rounds. Did fine.

[EzGoingKev]

I am not a 1911 guy so please cut me some slack.

I have read in multiple places that the best /most reliable non-custom/non-high dollar 1911 are the S&W E-Series.

Is this still the case and if so do you guys think it would meet the OP's criteria?

[Trooper224]

I am not a 1911 guy so please cut me some slack.

I have read in multiple places that the best /most reliable non-custom/non-high dollar 1911 are the S&W E-Series.

Is this still the case and if so do you guys think it would meet the OP's criteria?

That was never the case. An S&W is pretty much like a Colt: it's a 90% gun. By that I mean they suffer from the same things most current Colts do, occasional mushy thumb safeties, occasional creepy triggers, etc. They run the ball right up to the five yard line, then often fuck up the end game. Like Kimber, S&W puts some lipstick on them, like cool fish scale slide serrations and such. However, while they have the lipstick they aren't the pigs that Kimbers are. Pretty decent pistols for the most part, but hardly a benchmark.

I think they'd probably meet the OPs criteria, because I doubt his use would be overly hard.

[Robinson]

I am not a 1911 guy so please cut me some slack.

I have read in multiple places that the best /most reliable non-custom/non-high dollar 1911 are the S&W E-Series.

Is this still the case and if so do you guys think it would meet the OP's criteria?

I would rate the S&W 1911s above Sig and Kimber, about on par with Colt and Springfield Armory depending on model. They are a pretty decent gun for the money. One thing I will say about the S&W guns is that while non-traditional their external extractors tend to work very well.

[SecondsCount]

I would rate the S&W 1911s above Sig and Kimber, about on par with Colt and Springfield Armory depending on model. They are a pretty decent gun for the money. One thing I will say about the S&W guns is that while non-traditional their external extractors tend to work very well.

How can I say this politely...

To this day do not understand how Colt gets any kind of credit for their low quality product.

I'm not a fan of the use of an external extractor but like you said, S&W seems to get it right, and their fit and finish is twice as good as anything Colt puts out.

[RevolverRob]

If you’re going to choose an external extractor gun, you might as well just move on from the 1911. If I wanted an external extractor gun, I’d probably just skip over to the new P210 Standard and try that. You stand a better chance of getting one that works. No the new 210s aren’t as nice as the Swiss or German guns, whatever, if they work they’ll be better than the old ones, due to better ergos and a proper push-button mag release.

Frankly the street prices on the new P210 Standards (1300 bucks) are making me wonder if there is a good reason to bother with 9mm 1911s at all...

[EzGoingKev]

Pretty decent pistols for the most part, but hardly a benchmark.

No one said anything about benchmark, it was more the what is a well made and reliable 1911 for cheapest/reasonable price.

[fatdog]

One thing I will say about the S&W guns is that while non-traditional their external extractors tend to work very well.

This mirrors my experience, I have owned 5 of them and all were flawless functionally. I sold the two full size stainless E series guns to local friends who still use them in USPSA single stack, the two lightweight scandium commanders I have are very accurate and I cannot remember a feed or extraction malfunction in either gun. The extractor design is the same one they had in their 3rd gen DAO guns and that one was more or less perfected on that platform.

[JohnK]

I don't have any experience on the SW 1911s and under the circumstances, I am pretty well set on my collection of 1911s so I doubt I will be acquiring anymore. Maybe just tweaking the existing set so I won't jump into external extractor 1911s.

The OP wants a turn-key 1911 where cost isn't an issue presumably for a volume of shooting that may never happen. I get it, I want the most bang for whatever buck I hand out. And I want to be a high volume, high proficiency shooter as well. Unfortunately time and hand/joint pain are the restrictive factors. But I don't want a gun that will check out in 6,000 rounds either. I think that's the rub. Basically, OP needs to settle on a make/model/caliber suited for his needs and drive on.

[Trooper224]

No one said anything about benchmark, it was more the what is a well made and reliable 1911 for cheapest/reasonable price.

In your original post you used verbiage like, "best/most reliable....." That's what I was responding to. "Reliable 1911 for the cheapest/reasonable price." Is an entirely different discussion and not what you asked for. In the mostest for the leastest context I think the S&Ws have a lot going for them.

[FrankB]

That was never the case. An S&W is pretty much like a Colt: it's a 90% gun. By that I mean they suffer from the same things most current Colts do, occasional mushy thumb safeties, occasional creepy triggers, etc. They run the ball right up to the five yard line, then often fuck up the end game. Like Kimber, S&W puts some lipstick on them, like cool fish scale slide serrations and such. However, while they have the lipstick they aren't the pigs that Kimbers are. Pretty decent pistols for the most part, but hardly a benchmark.

I think they'd probably meet the OPs criteria, because I doubt his use would be overly hard.

I bought a stainless S&W 5” E Series in person a few years ago. It’s been 100% reliable, but, I did make a few finesse changes. The factory trigger was a sloppy, floppy fit. The hammer had rounded hooks, and the sear was the worse looking MIM junk possible. I stoned the hammer hooks properly, and replaced the sear, disco, and trigger with Wilson Combat parts. The trigger is VERY crisp now, and breaks at 3lb 10oz. I might have added a WC extended mag release as well. Most of my 1911’s have a WC slightly extended mag release, but the Dan Wesson Vigil I bought two weeks ago was perfect out of the box.

[Robinson]

How can I say this politely...

To this day do not understand how Colt gets any kind of credit for their low quality product.

I'm not a fan of the use of an external extractor but like you said, S&W seems to get it right, and their fit and finish is twice as good as anything Colt puts out.

You don't need to say it politely, you have your opinion and are free to state it.

People, including here on this forum, seem to have widely divergent experiences and opinions of Colt's 1911 offerings. Mine have been good almost without exception, whereas others have had rotten luck. Now granted, most of the Colts I own are either Custom Shop guns or basic traditional guns like my Gold Cup National Match. But even my production-line Rail Gun has been excellent. I can't speak except from my own experience.

[SW CQB 45]

I was big into Smith 4500 (hence my name) before we were allowed 1911 carry. The SW4500 extractor was beefy compared to its SW5900 9mm offering. When SW first introduced their version of the 1911, I saw the thin looking 9mm sized extractor and never gave them another look. I know the original SW with prefix (I think JRD.... I could be wrong on the prefix) were desired pieces as they were built/put together by their custom shop. I never heard of extractor issues but always preferred the look of traditional styling.

[SecondsCount]

You don't need to say it politely, you have your opinion and are free to state it.

People, including here on this forum, seem to have widely divergent experiences and opinions of Colt's 1911 offerings. Mine have been good almost without exception, whereas others have had rotten luck. Now granted, most of the Colts I own are either Custom Shop guns or basic traditional guns like my Gold Cup National Match. But even my production-line Rail Gun has been excellent. I can't speak except from my own experience.
It's not just an opinion. Just look at the first post in this thread. I own Colts but would never consider them to be anything more than the middle of the pack. They've probably contributed more to the "unreliable 1911" mantra than any other brand.

I will agree with you on their custom shop stuff.

[Dave T]

I started my use (for uniform patrol) of a service grade 1911 by purchasing a MK IV Series 70, Colt Government Model. I had a Commander hammer installed and modified the grip safety to fit the hammer. I had Micro fixed "hard ball" sights installed. It shot everything I put through it for a 3-4 years. Then I became a detective and bought a Commander (now called a Light Weight Commander). Since I was growing in my knowledge and experience I had a local shop install a S&W K-38 rear and higher front sight. Also added a long tang grip safety, fitted to the hammer. Gun worked, even in competition. Understand, I was what they used to call a "martial artist". I wasn't wound up about a plastic cup or ribbon, I wanted to practice to save my life. I shot the guns I carried and didn't win much, but that was OK.

Please note, no where in the above story is there any mention of "fitting", or "match barrels", or other target related stuff. My guns (all Colts if that matters) were "service pistols" and like the 1911s and 1911A1s that served us so well through four wars and who knows how many skirmishes, they worked. Several years after I retired I got back into shooting matches. I found an old pre-Series 70 GM and had a local smith build me a competition gun. Again it wasn't match tight. Rather, by the standards of the day and even today, it was set up like a service pistol with good sights, a good trigger, and a beaver-tail grip safety. A little after it was built I had the front strap checkered and the frame hard chromed.

That old GM ran for over 2500 rounds with only 1 malfunction, which was caused by a bad reload (my bad as they say). From that one hick-up it trudged on for another 1500 to 2000 rounds. I only quit shooting it because of the arthritis in my strong hand. When I had that gun built I told the smith, if I could get the rounds in the magazine, and the magazine in the gun, I wanted it to work. It did that for something over 3000 rounds.

My advice...forget "match" anything. Get a functional, well built 1911 with decent sights and a reasonable trigger. Feed it good ammo and (drum roll please) learn to shoot it.

YMMV,
Dave

[45dotACP]

Never been a huge fan of external 1911 extractors, but I believe Hilton Yam even noted that the S&W E series is GTG

Agree with Trooper though. I doubt they'll be top quality, and I'd exchange some parts before considering one to be "hard use". Just because the extractor is of a more durable design doesn't mean the other parts aren't crappy MIM

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Trooper224]

You don't need to say it politely, you have your opinion and are free to state it.

People, including here on this forum, seem to have widely divergent experiences and opinions of Colt's 1911 offerings. Mine have been good almost without exception, whereas others have had rotten luck. Now granted, most of the Colts I own are either Custom Shop guns or basic traditional guns like my Gold Cup National Match. But even my production-line Rail Gun has been excellent. I can't speak except from my own experience.

Last week I looked at a brand new Colt, the Combat Unit. It was a nice gun overall, but had the aforementioned mushy safety and an incredible amount of creep in the trigger. That's what I mean when I call it a 90% gun. Almost right there, then you skip on the small details and blow it. Colts and Springfields both have routine extractor issues right out of the box. If it's a Colt it's usually a lack of tension. With the Springfield it usually involves a poorly shaped hook and notch. The Colt was sitting next to a Dan Wesson ECO, there was absolutely no comparison.

[Robinson]

It's not just an opinion. Just look at the first post in this thread. I own Colts but would never consider them to be anything more than the middle of the pack. They've probably contributed more to the "unreliable 1911" mantra than any other brand.

I will agree with you on their custom shop stuff.

Okay, rather than "opinion" maybe it would be more accurate to call it a viewpoint born out of experience. So is mine. Like I've posted before, my highest round count guns are Colt Custom Shop pistols and I base my viewpoint mostly on those. My Gold Cup National Match is just for fun and because it looks nice. I have different criteria for the ones I shoot a lot.

[FrankB]

Last week I looked at a brand new Colt, the Combat Unit. It was a nice gun overall, but had the aforementioned mushy safety and an incredible amount of creep in the trigger. That's what I mean when I call it a 90% gun. Almost right there, then you skip on the small details and blow it. Colts and Springfields both have routine extractor issues right out of the box. If it's a Colt it's usually a lack of tension. With the Springfield it usually involves a poorly shaped hook and notch. The Colt was sitting next to a Dan Wesson ECO, there was absolutely no comparison.

Sorry I’m quoting you twice this afternoon... I bought my wife a SS 5” Colt Government Competition last year. This pistol was mail order, so I rolled the dice. The thumb safety did not fit at all! It wasn’t even close to fitting against the frame, and didn’t travel upward very far. It did
function *enough*, but I took it home, and fitted it myself. Fortunately, they left too much material, and not too little. It’s been a fine pistol after that tweak.

[Robinson]

Sorry I’m quoting you twice this afternoon... I bought my wife a SS 5” Colt Government Competition last year. This pistol was mail order, so I rolled the dice. The thumb safety did not fit at all! It wasn’t even close to fitting against the frame, and didn’t travel upward very far. It did
function *enough*, but I took it home, and fitted it myself. Fortunately, they left too much material, and not too little. It’s been a fine pistol after that tweak.

Why in sam hell Colt can't fit the thumb safeties properly on 100% of their regular production guns has baffled me for some time now.

[Jason Burton]

Why in sam hell Colt can't fit the thumb safeties properly on 100% of their regular production guns has baffled me for some time now.

Pretty simple... because they are not fitting them.

This is not a slight against Colt, I am as much as Colt protagonist as anyone, but as a production gun that is sold at a price point and constructed of parts meant to fit within a tolerance spec this is often a result. Not good, not bad, just is. The part might require a bit of work where it interfaces with the sear but attention paid to the thumb safety detent, down-stop, and 'feel' of the part in the hand cost more money.

[Robinson]

Pretty simple... because they are not fitting them.

The part might require a bit of work where it interfaces with the sear...

Yep, that interface is something I pretty much count on having to address on any new general production Colt. It's about 50-50 on whether it will need the sear engagement to be cleaned up. I haven't found this to be true on their Custom Shop guns (and I'm speaking of the guns actually built by the Custom Shop, not the guns that have some special finish and come in a CS box).

[JHC]

Pretty simple... because they are not fitting them.

This is not a slight against Colt, I am as much as Colt protagonist as anyone, but as a production gun that is sold at a price point and constructed of parts meant to fit within a tolerance spec this is often a result. Not good, not bad, just is. The part might require a bit of work where it interfaces with the sear but attention paid to the thumb safety detent, down-stop, and 'feel' of the part in the hand cost more money.

Does anyone fit them on similar price point production guns? My unscientific sampling over the last few years included handing probably a dozen Colts and Springfield Armory production 1911s in my fave LGS. All of them in a $700-$900 street price range. I've run into maybe a quarter or third of the Colts that had a mush safety on/off feel that was no good. I don't recall a single SA gun that wasn't positive snap on/snap off. Luck of the draw maybe.

[Robinson]

Does anyone fit them on similar price point production guns? My unscientific sampling over the last few years included handing probably a dozen Colts and Springfield Armory production 1911s in my fave LGS. All of them in a $700-$900 street price range. I've run into maybe a quarter or third of the Colts that had a mush safety on/off feel that was no good. I don't recall a single SA gun that wasn't positive snap on/snap off. Luck of the draw maybe.

I am not attempting to answer for Mr. Burton, but I can correct a Colt safety in about a half hour. That includes disassembly, filing/stoning the sear engagement surface, reassembly, test, repeat until it seems perfect. Apply some Super Blue if it's not a stainless part. They should be able to do it in final assembly at the factory easily and quickly but they don't (except for the Custom Shop). Other manufacturers probably include it as a final assembly process step for production line guns. Aggravating.

[Coyote41]

My understanding is that Colt has invested a lot into making the 1911 a CNC-able product. They don’t seem to do much hand fitting at all, as evidenced in their 2017 Panteo video.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Robinson]

My understanding is that Colt has invested a lot into making the 1911 a CNC-able product. They don’t seem to do much hand fitting at all, as evidenced in their 2017 Panteo video.


Yeah, that is true. The Custom Shop still hand builds guns but the production line guns don't really get any hand fitting.

Colt's specification for making a 1911 pistol is solid. If they were to make all their guns to the specification, give just a small amount of attention to the parts that need it -- like the thumb safety and extractor -- and be a bit more consistent in their QA they would pretty much solve their problems.

The gun I recently retired from carry is a Special Combat Government model. The blued finish is well worn and the front sight paint needs to be redone again. It was hand built, shoots great, and has never failed. That should be the standard at Colt.

The lightweight model I am replacing it with works well and looks fine, but I had to spend time to get the thumb safety just right as is common. Most buyers would never know how to address it and would have to live with a mushy safety. Unacceptable. But the gun is fine now and is working out great as a carry gun for what that's worth.

[Sensei]

The TRP PRO from the FBI contact era is probably the most vetted “hard use” and reliable 1911 out there. I have no idea of Springfield’s quality took a hit after the FBI stopped issuing new pistols.

I’d say that the Wilson CQB Elite is good to go along with comparable offerings from NH Custom. I’d stay away from 9mm offerings.

However, keep in mind that much of what makes a 1911 reliable is not what the factory does before the new gun hits your door, but instead is the preventive maintenance that the end user performs after the first 5-10K rounds.

[P30]

I've searched this thread for "Dan Wesson" and selected the results with the most likes:


8x👍: Dan Wesson 5" .45 ACP or Commander length 9mm.


5x👍: Based on my experience and many others, Dan Wesson is making solid 1911s with good parts and proven reliability.


5x👍: Late to the party. Comments pertain to 5 inch, .45 all steel guns.

The two brands/models that I have seen that run from the box best have been Springfield and Dan Wesson.

[...]

The general 1911 recs I make when asked:

>850 Ruger 5 inch
>1250 Springfield LB Operator
>1750 Dan Wesson Specialist
>2500 Springfield Professional
>3000 Wilson CQB




4x👍: A formula for success, base off of my experience:

-Government model gun with proper barrel fit (with a chamber that is finish reamed) that shows no springing, lug bump or link riding

-In .45acp with an 18lb recoil spring and a 23lb mainspring.

-Extractor shaped so that the tensioning wall is the ONLY part touching the shell casing and that is correctly set for tension and deflection.

-Quality magazines (7 round standard tube, 8 round extended tube).

-Quality ammunition. Don't feed your gun reman or poor quality reloads that fail a case gauge.

-Use lube as needed. Don't use grease or anything that's going to thicken in cold weather. Clean it as needed.

(As an aside, I don't do the 2,000 round test for a few reasons. One, I'll never run that much ammo through any gun without cleaning. And two, although it's certainly possible for the guns to do it, the combination of lube and burnt carbon will become a lapping compound and can loosen the tight fit that seperates an accurate 1911 from a REALLY accurate 1911.)

-If it fails the 10-8 extractor test, take it back to the bench and figure out why.

[...]

Start with Dan Wesson and up.

So the reputation of Dan Wesson in this forum seems to be very good. I like both the Dan Wesson ECP and the Ed Brown KC9. I'm considering to buy one of them in the near future. What do you think about the Ed Brown KC9? I suppose, it has not been mentioned in this thread. I'm wondering why. Both are very expensive here in Germany (KC9 costs 2990 € (https://www.theduke.de/produkt/kurzwaffen/ed-brown-evo-kc9/) = $3420). What do you think about their reliability in 9mm?

Dan Wesson ECP (in 9mm or .45):
57550

Ed Brown KC9 (9 mm):
57552

[farscott]

My understanding, not based on personal experience, is that the Ed Brown KC9 is not reliable enough to be a carry pistol. As someone who has one of the older (very early) stainless Kobra pistols in .45 ACP, the KC9 was something I hoped would work. Alas, it does not appear to do so.

9x19 in a 1911-pattern pistol is something that very few makers have cracked. By all accounts, Wilson Combat has the most reliable solution, incorporating design changes to both magazine and pistol. That being said, when I tried 9x19 1911-pattern pistols, I started with bone-stock Series '70 Colt Government Models, had customs built that are in my safe, still have models from STI and SVI, and tried and sent down the road a ton of others. I finally settled on the Wilson EDC X9 as the magazine is the key to the system. Locked-breech, recoil-operated systems are not that complex, but the 1911 magazine is just not well suited for 9x19 as the magazine is too long for the cartridge. Adding to that issue, the five-inch slide is not well matched to 9x19 recoil. The EDC X9 solves all of that by using a magazine and slide designed for 9x19 and provides Glock 19 magazine capacity.

[P30]

Thank you very much for your response, farscott. But the Wilson Combat EDC costs 4250 € = $4860, here (https://www.theduke.de/produkt/kurzwaffen/wilson-combat-edc-x9/). I'm not willing to pay that much. 3000 € should be the limit.

My good friend and shooting buddy also suggests a 1911 in .45 ACP. He's lots of experience with them. So as it looks now, my next pistol seems to be a Dan Wesson ECP in .45 ACP.

[JAD]

You’ll be very pleased I think. One thing I might be prepared for is the pistol shooting high — that’s been a consistent issue that I’ve experienced as well. Front sight replacement at the factory has been my solution, and was easy; that might be harder from Germany, so be sure that you have another means to that end.

[Robinson]

So the reputation of Dan Wesson in this forum seems to be very good.

That's a fair statement. I agree Dan Wesson makes very nice guns and they are a good value at the price point. But visit the Dan Wesson section over at the 1911 forum and you will see plenty of examples of DWs that have had to go to the factory to have issues corrected -- especially the 9mm guns.

But overall I'd say DW guns deserve the good reputation.

[JTQ]

But visit the Dan Wesson section over at the 1911 forum and you will see plenty of examples of DWs that have had to go to the factory to have issues corrected ...

While I'm sure a lot of those are factory issues, but I believe many of them are merely a mismatch between a 1911 those that probably shouldn't own a 1911.

As seen in this thread, the Dan Wesson is often recommended when folks are looking for their first 1911. Many of these folks looking seem to be experienced shooters, but that experience is limited to striker fired guns in the $500 price range.

Buying a $1,500 gun is a big leap for many of them and often expectations are unrealistic. Coming from a "six drops of lube" mindset to a 1911 is one thing, using brake cleaner and other harsh chemicals and then worrying about slight shade differences in the DutyTreat finish is another. Then there is the whole Dan Wesson owner's manual break-in procedure. I just kind of avoid that sub-forum.

[TOTS]

While I'm sure a lot of those are factory issues, but I believe many of them are merely a mismatch between a 1911 those that probably shouldn't own a 1911.

. I just kind of avoid that sub-forum.

1000 x this!! VERY few of the guys there seem to be serious shooters and view their DWs as tools. Makes me very skeptical when they have problems as to if the problem lies with the tool...

[Dave T]

When I had a duty gun built by Jim Hoag in the early 1980s I asked him about building a Combat Commander. He told me the more you deviate from the 5" Government Model in 45 ACP (back then the more popular alternative was 38 Super) the more problems you will have. Hoag knew a bit about the 1911.

Just another data point,
Dave

[farscott]

Thank you very much for your response, @farscott (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=2197). But the Wilson Combat EDC costs 4250 € = $4860, here (https://www.theduke.de/produkt/kurzwaffen/wilson-combat-edc-x9/). I'm not willing to pay that much. 3000 € should be the limit.

My good friend and shooting buddy also suggests a 1911 in .45 ACP. He's lots of experience with them. So as it looks now, my next pistol seems to be a Dan Wesson ECP in .45 ACP.

Yeah, that seems pricey. The above suggestion of a SIG P210 makes a ton of sense, especially as importing parts from Switzerland is much simpler than importing parts from the USA. I also expect the SIG P210 is as reliable and much more accurate than any DW 1911.

[Robinson]

When I had a duty gun built by Jim Hoag in the early 1980s I asked him about building a Combat Commander. He told me the more you deviate from the 5" Government Model in 45 ACP (back then the more popular alternative was 38 Super) the more problems you will have. Hoag knew a bit about the 1911.

Just another data point,
Dave

That's a pretty well-accepted viewpoint. Commander length guns generally work well, but even then you are more likely to have a problem than with a 5" gun. I keep going back and forth on whether I want to carry my Lightweight Commander or my Lightweight Government just for that reason. The difference in weight is minimal, but the Commander is more comfortable when carried AIWB while sitting. But I shoot the Government model better and prefer full size guns in general. They both run great.

[Robinson]

While I'm sure a lot of those are factory issues, but I believe many of them are merely a mismatch between a 1911 those that probably shouldn't own a 1911...

... I just kind of avoid that sub-forum.

Oh I agree, and I don't visit that forum for advice -- I much prefer to get that here.

[Robinson]

1000 x this!! VERY few of the guys there seem to be serious shooters and view their DWs as tools. Makes me very skeptical when they have problems as to if the problem lies with the tool...

You'll get that within the fan base of any brand, but yeah I agree.

[JTQ]

Oh I agree, and I don't visit that forum for advice -- I much prefer to get that here.
Oh, I get a lot of advice from 1911Forum and most of it is very good.

I just find the Dan Wesson sub-forum is often painful to read through, since as you see here, there are a lot of recommendations for Dan Wesson's, and a lot of those folks taking the recommendation, would be much better suited to staying with their polymer pistols.

[JTQ]

Another Dan Wesson "for instance" would be "galling".

I'd have bet a month's salary that galling as a firearm issue had been fixed by firearm manufacturers back in the 1980's. I can't recall galling being an issue with any other 1911 maker, or any handgun maker, for probably 30 years, until it started showing up on the 1911Forum Dan Wesson sub-forum a few years ago.

Is it a real issue that Dan Wesson flubbed on, certainly possible, but man does it seem unlikely, or is it some user error? I don't know, but it is certainly an odd ball blip in the 1911 community.

[Robinson]

Another Dan Wesson "for instance" would be "galling".

I'd have bet a month's salary that galling as a firearm issue had been fixed by firearm manufacturers back in the 1980's. I can't recall galling being an issue with any other 1911 maker, or any handgun maker, for probably 30 years, until it started showing up on the 1911Forum Dan Wesson sub-forum a few years ago.

Is it a real issue that Dan Wesson flubbed on, certainly possible, but man does it seem unlikely, or is it some user error? I don't know, but it is certainly an odd ball blip in the 1911 community.

There is a reason DW prescribes a break-in period using only the supplied lube with a new gun. The galling problem is or was a real thing at one point in time. It's possible they have addressed it, but if I bought a new stainless DW pistol I would be inclined to follow their recommended break-in process.

[SecondsCount]

Another Dan Wesson "for instance" would be "galling".

I'd have bet a month's salary that galling as a firearm issue had been fixed by firearm manufacturers back in the 1980's. I can't recall galling being an issue with any other 1911 maker, or any handgun maker, for probably 30 years, until it started showing up on the 1911Forum Dan Wesson sub-forum a few years ago.

Is it a real issue that Dan Wesson flubbed on, certainly possible, but man does it seem unlikely, or is it some user error? I don't know, but it is certainly an odd ball blip in the 1911 community.

I've owned two 45ACP DW CBOBs and neither had an issue with galling. Now I have a 5" Valor in 9mm with the black duty treatment and have not had an issue with it either.

[JTQ]

... but if I bought a new stainless DW pistol I would be inclined to follow their recommended break-in process.
For those that may wonder what that is, here is a key point...


3 . We recommend that you felid strip, clean and re-oil every 50 rounds during break in .

[SecondsCount]

I've never done a break-in on a DW. Lubed it with whatever I had on hand and shot it till it was filthy, then cleaned and lubed. Not saying others haven't had issues but it's a rarity that seems to be an issue with brand new guns. The problem is the buyers want a tight gun, one that doesn't rattle like an old Colt, so that's what DW builds.

1911 Forum has a lot of good info but there is so much noise that I stopped hanging out there.

[JTQ]

I've never done a break-in on a DW.
As a data point, were your Dan Wesson's stainless steel?

[SecondsCount]

As a data point, were your Dan Wesson's stainless steel?

CBOBs were stainless, the Valor has the Duty Treatment (similar to melonite or tenifer) as it came from DW.

[TC215]

Another Dan Wesson "for instance" would be "galling".

I'd have bet a month's salary that galling as a firearm issue had been fixed by firearm manufacturers back in the 1980's. I can't recall galling being an issue with any other 1911 maker, or any handgun maker, for probably 30 years, until it started showing up on the 1911Forum Dan Wesson sub-forum a few years ago.

Is it a real issue that Dan Wesson flubbed on, certainly possible, but man does it seem unlikely, or is it some user error? I don't know, but it is certainly an odd ball blip in the 1911 community.


There is a reason DW prescribes a break-in period using only the supplied lube with a new gun. The galling problem is or was a real thing at one point in time. It's possible they have addressed it, but if I bought a new stainless DW pistol I would be inclined to follow their recommended break-in process.

DW had a real issue the first half of 2015 with galling. Don’t know if it was a bad run of frames/slides or what. Other than that, the majority of issues seem to come from people running their bare stainless guns dry, or using RemOil, etc. There will always be a risk of galling, I think, with tight stainless guns.

I’m up to 21 Dan Wessons, half of them 9mm’s, and no issues.

[Trooper224]

As a data point, were your Dan Wesson's stainless steel?

All DWs are stainless, except the A2.

[TC215]

All DWs are stainless, except the A2.

And the blued Valors...I’d still really like one of those. I wish they sold better.

[Robinson]

I’m up to 21 Dan Wessons, half of them 9mm’s, and no issues.

Do you have a Guardian? I've been considering one in 38 Super.

[Trooper224]

While I'm sure a lot of those are factory issues, but I believe many of them are merely a mismatch between a 1911 those that probably shouldn't own a 1911.

As seen in this thread, the Dan Wesson is often recommended when folks are looking for their first 1911. Many of these folks looking seem to be experienced shooters, but that experience is limited to striker fired guns in the $500 price range.

Buying a $1,500 gun is a big leap for many of them and often expectations are unrealistic. Coming from a "six drops of lube" mindset to a 1911 is one thing, using brake cleaner and other harsh chemicals and then worrying about slight shade differences in the DutyTreat finish is another. Then there is the whole Dan Wesson owner's manual break-in procedure. I just kind of avoid that sub-forum.

You speak the tru tru on all points.

The 1911 forum should really be avoided by anyone intending to use the pistol as anything other than a collectible. When it comes to negative feedback, most of it will focus on aesthetic issues, such as, "I took my new gun apart and there's a machine mark on the inside of the dust cover underneath the bushing!" This is on any of the subforums, not just the DW. It isn't alone in this bent, most forums are, but it really isn't a place for anyone desiring to expand their knowledge of pistolcraft, especially the 1911.

Over the last few years I've corrected several 1911s for shooters whose previous experience was with the plastic fantastic. In every single case one of the key factors was a lack of lubrication. The 1911 can run like a red assed baboon and you don't have to have deep pockets or a custom pistol to get there. What you do have to have is a little working knowledge of the design and a realization that it takes a bit more user interface than a plastic fantastic . Darryl Bolke has extensively discussed these facets in revolver based threads, like keeping the extractor star clean, making sure the ejector rod is tight, etc. The same kind of mindset has to be adopted with the 1911, or any other old school deign.

[TC215]

Do you have a Guardian? I've been considering one in 38 Super.

Out of all the 1911’s I’ve had....Wilsons, Baers, Browns, etc, the 9mm Guardian is my all-time favorite. I’ve had several in 9mm and .45, but only one in .38 Super. I had a custom VBOB built for my dad in .38 Super for his 60th birthday....it’s awesome.

[Trooper224]

And the blued Valors...I’d still really like one of those. I wish they sold better.

Ah yes, there is that one. I've been impressed enough with the Duty Coat on my Valor that I wouldn't consider buying a DW in bare stainless. I think it's well worth the extra freight.

I've started to hunger for a Vigil Commander in 9mm. I've always been firmly against 1911s in 9mm, but the Springfield RO we have in 9mm runs like a scalded dog with minimal care and with any magazine you care to name. (although it is going to need a new extractor soon) It's started to bring me around to the concept.

[TC215]

Ah yes, there is that one. I've been impressed enough with the Duty Coat on my Valor that I wouldn't consider buying a DW in bare stainless. I think it's well worth the extra freight.

I've started to hunger for a Vigil Commander in 9mm. I've always been firmly against 1911s in 9mm, but the Springfield RO we have in 9mm runs like a scalded dog with minimal care and with any magazine you care to name. (although it is going to need a new extractor soon) It's started to bring me around to the concept.

I’ve had a few VBOBs in bare stainless...A couple just because they were cheaper, but I bought one that I wanted to make some changes to (I think I had carry cuts milled), and then had it duty treated. It’s supposed to be easier to do any mods on the bare stainless.