Suggestions for getting into mid range in DFW?

[Oukaapie]

I'm looking to try my hand at 500-600 yards and need a recommendation on a local (within a couple hours of DFW) range and training. Wouldn't mind some suggestions on an entry rig to learn on. I've got AR lowers so a 6.5 Grendel or 224 Valkyrie seems an easy option although a bolt gun in something else could work. Open to suggestions on location and gear.

I have a shitty neck so recoil is something I'd like to minimize. I stare at spreadsheets quite a but so avoiding math would also be desirable.

Other option, get a Tikka T1X and hit DPC during the week while everyone else is on zoom calls. Still need some guidance here though.

[Jackdog]

Triple C range in Cresson maybe a good fit
For you. Just 59 miles away. They have ranges out to 2K.

https://www.triplecrange.com


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[LittleLebowski]

.223 bolt. Recall when the Army Marksmanship Unit showed up at Camp Perry with M16s with heavy bullets and spanked the Marines armed with M14s.

[Oukaapie]

Thanks for the recommendations.

[David S.]

How much "training" do you need, vs opportunity?

I attended a Tiger Valley course east of Waco. Write up here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14795-Basic-Carbine-Training-D-FW-Area&p=1057831&viewfull=1#post1057831). As I stated in the review, based on my experience with him vs quite a few handgun instructors, I would not recommend him for a rank newbie like I was to carbines. There was little to no instruction of any of mechanics (holdover, offset, malfunctions, positional shooting, etc). I kinda figured it out as we went along.

He's a smart dude. He's been there done that, and was recommended by Dobbs and Bolke. He just wasn't what I needed at the time.

If you're after a mid-range course, I assume you likely have those worked out. If so, you might find his course useful. You'll certainly get to shoot a variety of steel at the desired ranges. Things SEEM slow for him. I don't know, but you may be able to book him for private lessons for normal tuition price.

Cheers,
David S

[jtcarm]

Triple C range in Cresson maybe a good fit
For you. Just 59 miles away. They have ranges out to 2K.

https://www.triplecrange.com


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This.

[Wise_A]

For starters, you might check out Ryan Cleckner's Long Range Shooting Handbook: The Complete Beginner's Guide to Precision Rifle Shooting (https://www.amazon.com/Long-Range-Shooting-Handbook-Cleckner/dp/151865472X/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Ryan+Cleckner+Long+Range+Shooting+Book&qid=1593796533&sr=8-3) (PF affiliate link). I've not read it myself, but it's an oft-recommended title that covers a lot of the basics.

Cartridge: .223 will certainly get you to 500-600 yards without a problem, especially if you want to avoid recoil stressing your neck. I would simply make sure that the barrel I selected was capable of stabilizing 69+ grain bullets out to the distances you want to shoot. There are a couple guys in PRS using .223, but the primary reason you don't see more isn't the ballistics of the cartridge, but the fact that hit scoring is dependent on the impact being observed, and .223/5.56 doesn't make a terribly visible impact. If you decide to get deeper into it later, there are a host of 6mm cartridges that would work great for you, but for now, you don't need the expense, the hassle of sourcing or making brass, or the barrel consumption.

Gun: I think that a good AR upper will certainly get you there, but I also think it will be more expensive than a dedicated bolt gun. In my opinion, you would do well to choose between either using an AR-15 upper you already have, or buying/borrowing an entry-level bolt gun that will cost the same or less than a dedicated AR upper. A heavy/varmint-barreled Howa 1500 or Savage 10 will serve you quite well. Cabela's and others carry exclusive entry-level Savage 10 rifles (like the Savage 12FV) for $400 or under, and sometimes far less. The Ruger American Predator is an excellent option (and it takes AR magazines!), but options for upgrading the stock are limited. In any case, a .223 is very comfortable to shoot with a varmint profile barrel.

Personally, though, don't do the dumb shit I did: if you decide you want a rifle in a nice chassis, don't stick your budget action in it. Just pony up for a custom action.

Protect Ya Neck: Pay a lot of attention to how you set up your shooting position. You don't want to have to move your neck out of its natural position--no craning, stooping, tucking forward, etc. Get in position, seated or prone, and then make the rifle fit you. If the range has benches, bring some cushions to adjust your seating height. I would also suggest looking into free-recoil shooting. Most guys use the hard-hold technique, where the rifle butt directly contacts your shoulder and you pull the rifle straight back--easy on the shoulder, but it can be jarring on your neck. In free-recoil, the rifle is positioned on a sliding bipod+rear bag, or front and rear bags (and optionally, bag riders). Only your trigger finger actually contacts the rifle, and upon firing, the rifle is allowed to slide backwards and you catch it with your shoulder. It's maybe a little tougher on the shoulder, but very easy on your neck. Excellent groups can be achieved with either technique.

[SeriousStudent]

I'm looking to try my hand at 500-600 yards and need a recommendation on a local (within a couple hours of DFW) range and training. Wouldn't mind some suggestions on an entry rig to learn on. I've got AR lowers so a 6.5 Grendel or 224 Valkyrie seems an easy option although a bolt gun in something else could work. Open to suggestions on location and gear.

I have a shitty neck so recoil is something I'd like to minimize. I stare at spreadsheets quite a but so avoiding math would also be desirable.

Other option, get a Tikka T1X and hit DPC during the week while everyone else is on zoom calls. Still need some guidance here though.

I may have a few rimfire rifles that could assist.......

CZ 455 Tacticool (suppressed with nice glass) and a very sweet old Kimber 82 Government with iron sights that won some competitions back in the day.

It's more fun to do trigger work while someone else looks through the big glass thingie and suggests wind calls.

[TOTS]

For starters, you might check out Ryan Cleckner's Long Range Shooting Handbook: The Complete Beginner's Guide to Precision Rifle Shooting (https://www.amazon.com/Long-Range-Shooting-Handbook-Cleckner/dp/151865472X/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Ryan+Cleckner+Long+Range+Shooting+Book&qid=1593796533&sr=8-3) (PF affiliate link). I've not read it myself, but it's an oft-recommended title that covers a lot of the basics.




Personally, though, don't do the dumb shit I did: if you decide you want a rifle in a nice chassis, don't stick your budget action in it. Just pony up for a custom action.

.

Honest question: I usually advise new long range guys wanting a chassis setup to spend their budget like this. Mostly on a good optic, decent chassis, non-shit barrels, then action. I think it’s a great idea to forego the custom action and use the extra money on a better optic and higher quality ammunition or class. In fact, a custom action is usually a last expense for me. Again, honestly wondering why you think a budget action in a good chassis is a dumb idea?

And quoted the link to promote a very informative book.

[Crews]

So there’s a guy that does private lessons on a private range about an hour East of Dallas that would be a good option. It’s one on one for a whole day and he can tailor the curriculum to your needs and goals. I consistently see positive feedback about his training on Texas Hunting Forum. And I’m pretty sure you can use his equipment for the course if you don’t have your own stuff yet. Will get contact info and follow up.

Regarding AR’s: for 600 yards get a Grendel and call it good. However, a word of warning... it’s harder to shoot an AR well. All the reciprocating mass will exploit any weaknesses you have in fundamentals and magnify them. Physical limitations aside, I think it’s better to learn long range marksmanship on a bolt. A 10+ pound rifle with a 3 port PVA brake and 6 Creedmoor or 120 6.5 Creedmoor is a pussycat for recoil.


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[Wise_A]

Honest question: I usually advise new long range guys wanting a chassis setup to spend their budget like this. Mostly on a good optic, decent chassis, non-shit barrels, then action. I think it’s a great idea to forego the custom action and use the extra money on a better optic and higher quality ammunition or class. In fact, a custom action is usually a last expense for me. Again, honestly wondering why you think a budget action in a good chassis is a dumb idea?

And quoted the link to promote a very informative book.

The optic, I see as a foregone conclusion. There are way fewer inquiries about using really cheap, shitty optics these days than there were 10 or 15 years ago. And to be honest, there are several well-known optics in the sub-$1k price range that I would happily use from 500-1000 yards. My next optics purchase is probably going to be a Nightforce Benchrest model, but that's beside the point ;) The other thing is, I'm less inclined to advise spending more on optics on P-F than I would other places, as the culture already leans towards non-shit glass.

Ammo--*shrugs*. It wasn't in the scope of the question, but yes, I would acquire loading equipment before I spent on a very pricey rifle. There are really good factory options for good target ammo, especially in 6.5CM. To my way of thinking, the economy of both quality factory ammo and high-quality reloading components is the biggest reason to choose that cartridge or the Grendel.

So! Budget action in a pricey chassis! Not "good", because there are plenty of really good budget options, but pricey. Putting a lot of money into a chassis means wedding yourself to the inlet. If you want to get out of it later, you're going to lose a bunch of money selling the thing (although it's better than a traditionally-bedded stock), especially if it's built for some rifle that the caviar rifle set doesn't like. To an extent, you can avoid this by going from a Remington 700 action to a clone custom, but now you're limited to 700 clones, and not every chassis' 700 inlet supports clone actions without modification. And to be frank, I don't think that most shooters really need all the features a chassis offers. If you can attach a good bipod and a cheek riser, you've got 90% of what an adjustable chassis will do for the average guy. I love mine, but I also know I'm not using half the capability.

A custom action, on the other hand, does a ton of stuff. It'll be smoother to operate than a factory action. You'll have a nice, easily-removable, ultra-reliable extractor, and either a choice of bolt knobs or a threaded handle. They're available with milled rails for optics, and you can count on everything being squared-up, centered, and perfectly threaded. You can install a good barrel and know that whatever happens, it's not the action's fault. The entry-level actions really offer a good value when you consider what it would cost to bring a factory action to that level. The Defiance Tenacity is a steal.

I would dip my toes with a basic 700 or Model 10 with a heavy threaded barrel, and a Vortex Diamondback Tactical scope. If I decided I had to have a chassis, the MDT LSS Gen 2 or LSS-XL are both quite reasonable. If I thought about spending any more than that on a chassis (MDT ACC or ESS, Masterpiece Arms, etc) I would really make a longer-term plan about what I wanted.

[Oukaapie]

Crews - Any idea on the trainers name? Was it Sean at VaporTrail?

I’m thinking a bolt gun is the way to go right now. I’m thinking in the $1K-$2K range for rifle and optics.

I will not be reloading and am seriously thinking of kidnapping SeriousStudent and trying his fancy pants 22lr. If they are as fancy as his revolvers, then they are fancy!

[SeriousStudent]

Woe is me. I am a harmless old man and easily damaged.

[Crews]

Crews - Any idea on the trainers name? Was it Sean at VaporTrail?

It’s Jason Garvey at:
/http://www.precisionriflehunters.com

I have admittedly never taken any training from him myself. However, I have been watching the positive feedback roll in on Texas Hunting Forum for many years. And his contributions to the forum indicate he is both knowledgeable and experienced in the art of long range rifle.

The class is $400 for a one day private lesson that’s tailored to your needs. For all the money and tome I’ve spent trying to figure it out myself I wish I had made that investment from the start.


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[Crews]

I’m thinking a bolt gun is the way to go right now. I’m thinking in the $1K-$2K range for rifle and optics.

I will not be reloading

The last thing I’d waste my beginner budget on is an expensive rifle when a so many modern cheap rifles are so accurate. A Tikka is very hard to beat (and this is coming from a guy who shoots an AI.). It’s also a great foundation for you to expand on in the future if needed. You do need a chassis that has ample adjustability because setup will make or break you, read KRG Bravo.

Leave room in the budget for an Atlas CAL, a crap Harris bipod is more counterproductive than you think.

Spend as much on the glass as you can. Doesn’t seem intuitive but the rifle can wait, the glass can’t.

And don’t feel bad about skipping the reloading. Factory Hornady ELD-M ammo is nothing short of amazing for the $.


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[Oukaapie]

Thanks Crews. I Was thinking a Tikka CTR or Bergara HMR in 6.5 or 243. Perhaps a cheapish 223/243 on the way there given that 223/5.56 ammo is fucking scarce.

You have any optics in mind? I was thinking the Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25.

[Wise_A]

I’m thinking a bolt gun is the way to go right now. I’m thinking in the $1K-$2K range for rifle and optics.

While you could technically do a DIY with a custom action at the high end of that price point, I would not. There was an outfit running nice deals on 6.5CM Tikka TAC A1s with optics for ~$1700 a few months ago, but I think that time has passed.

I think you have a couple options. A Tikka T3X Lite will run you ~$650, and KRG Bravo will bring that to a grand. If you can hold out until Thanksgiving, I'd shop the MDT Black Friday factory seconds sale. There are also a number of Savage Model 10 SKUs (BA Stealth, Stealth Evolution, Desert Tactical, etc) that are really quite competitive with that. Personally, I would suggest that the Tikka can always be rebarreled, but you'll never get rid of the Savage's heavy bolt lift.

Do you need a chassis? If your budget was less, it'd be the first thing I looked to cut. I learned to shoot without one, but I also spent lots of time setting up my rifles and my scopes tend to have generous eyeboxes. And I'm not doing a ton of prone stuff. Do note, however, that I don't own a rifle that's not in a chassis, and any rifle I did buy would find its way into either a chassis or an F-class-type stock.


Leave room in the budget for an Atlas CAL, a crap Harris bipod is more counterproductive than you think.

I've done okay with my Harris, but I would agree that it's a bunch of effort. My regular range makes no provision for prone shooting, the benches have nothing to load against, and they're not even shaped in such a way that I could pin a benchtop mat with a bipod stop on it. Out of necessity, I switched over to a Sinclair F-Class 'pod with ski feet for most of my shooting. I learned to shoot the Harris with no hop and and just the surface to load against, but it's not something I would wish on anyone.


And don’t feel bad about skipping the reloading. Factory Hornady ELD-M ammo is nothing short of amazing for the $.

It's disgustingly good. I've been very pleased with their ELD-M bullets for reloading. I've only gotten one in God-knows-how-many boxes that was blemmed (the jacket didn't meet the tip). I sort by weight, and probably only six or seven per box are outside of +/-.1 gr. Doesn't make a ton of difference, does make me happy.

I don't think you're wrong for sticking to factory.

[Brian T]

I "work" at Lone Star Armory in Ft Worth, TX. We build high end ARs (10s, 15s, and PCC) and bolt guns. But we can do other stuff too. We have our own range called Lone Star Training Center, though we work with the guys at Triple C and ETTS more often right now. Anyways, if you'd like to come into the shop, take a look around, see the manufacturing side of things, we'd love to have you out. Contact me through the board and let me see what I can set up for you, or anyone in the DFW area.

[Crews]

You have any optics in mind? I was thinking the Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25.

At the risk of sounding like an uppity asshole, here goes:

Buying a cheaper vortex is like buying a warranty with a crappy scope to accessorize it. Will it work? Kinda, until it breaks. How much is your time worth?

Also, I personally wouldn’t be paying the size penalty of a 14”+ Hubble telescope on top of my rifle when I know for a fact 25x is absolutely unnecessary (and even a hindrance.) And the high mag IQ just wont be there.

I’d at least plan for $1k-ish, which gets you up to a Bushy DMR II, Burris XTR II, Nightforce SHV space. That category starts to feel like you didn’t waste your money the first time on a junky scope.


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[Wise_A]

You can get a Viper PST Gen 2 5-25 for $100 more. Or a 6-24 for the same money. Quite happy with my sample of one--the turrets track well, eyebox is quite generous, glass is very clear. If I was going to complain about it, the knobs could be a little more clicky, and the zero stop is tricky to set up.

Nightforce SHV is going to be another $300 over the PST to get a showroom demo 4-14 FFP. Getting a new one is more like $1300. I wouldn't bother with a SFP. Is it nicer than the Viper? Well, yeah, but not 1.5 times as nice. That said, I'm flipping around the idea of picking up a Nightforce Benchrest, either for my 6.5 or for a dedicated F-Open gun.

I punch a lot of paper, so I get a lot of use out of 25x. If all I cared about was hitting somewhere on a piece of steel, I would get a lower-powered scope from a more expensive marque. I don't find it overly-ungainly, but my rifle already weighs nearly 20 pounds, and I don't have to carry it all day. If I don't need the full 25x, I just crank it back down and get a little better eyebox. I find the Vortex EBR reticle perfectly usable at lower magnifications.

I think that if you're unsure as to which is a better buy for you, you should get with a coach that will let you at least take a look at his setups. What works for me up here might not work so hot in Texas. You might hate shit I don't mind. Spending as much as you're planning and having to sell it and buy something else is going to result in a hit that's a lot bigger than what a coach is going to charge you.

[Crews]

What works for me up here might not work so hot in Texas.

Anything below alpha glass quality is completely useless above about 15x down here in the Texas heat. The mirage gets just downright soupy. My 4-16 ATACR has never left me wanting more mag. And I tried a 6-24 Kahles; it just wasn’t worth the size penalty for what I’m doing.

But there are just as many people that would rather have it even if they don’t need it too often. It’s a very personal decision, and you’re right that training/trying out some stuff first is money well spent.


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[Wise_A]

We get mirage in the summer--90 degrees with high humidity, shooting over open, dry fields. I don't find the Vortex too bad, but I'll also note that barrel mirage gets pretty bad shooting in the winter. Twenty or thirty rounds and the barrel has to cool. I'd already have made a shade for it, but I want it to color match / look cool, not just have some Venetian taped on my gun.

And also by comparison, an ATACR is what I'd budget for a nice rifle :D Which is kind've another point--you can always sell on a really good optic without taking a terrible hit, or move it to another rifle. Nobody really wants to mess with a used rifle. And optics prices have been generally trending up, not down.

[Oukaapie]

To confirm FFP not needed? Illuminated not needed? Burris XTR 2, Vortex PST, Nightforce SHV are all good, safe options?

BTW - I still think in metric so will be going Mil. Inches and yards make no sense to me....I still battle with Fahrenheit too.

[ranger]

I have the PRS bug. My two competition rifles are Burris XTR II FFP 5-15 MRAD - I like them very much. I have multiple Vortex Viper PST Gen 1 FFP/SFP - 2-10, 4-16, 6-24 - all MIL. They get the job done to 1100 yards.

[SeriousStudent]

To confirm FFP not needed? Illuminated not needed? Burris XTR 2, Vortex PST, Nightforce SHV are all good, safe options?

BTW - I still think in metric so will be going Mil. Inches and yards make no sense to me....I still battle with Fahrenheit too.

I have a Vortex Viper PST Gen I 4-16 mil/mil I'll let you borrow for a bit.

[Wise_A]

To confirm FFP not needed? Illuminated not needed? Burris XTR 2, Vortex PST, Nightforce SHV are all good, safe options?

BTW - I still think in metric so will be going Mil. Inches and yards make no sense to me....I still battle with Fahrenheit too.

Personally, I would not buy a SFP scope any more, FFP all the way. I don't hunt, I regularly hold over, or click elevation and hold for wind, and I tend to use the higher ends of my magnification.

Illumination--I used to think it was a gimmick on cheap scopes circa 2000, but I use it. A lot. Sometimes targets are heavily-shaded (many of our ranges up here are bordered by forest). Sometimes I'm shooting in mid-January under heavy cloud cover, or even in a medium-ish snowstorm.

MIL vs MOA...you could start a threadnought on it by itself. Already having a scope or a buddy with a scope marked in MIL or MOA might swing the decision. Personally, I find my MIL optics somewhat irritating on a range with targets in yards, but the math is not really that bad and I'm just a baby about it. Click adjustments are very slightly more coarse with a .1MIL adjustment vs a .25MOA (.36"/click @ vs .25"/click) but that's not a huge deal. You'll be fine with MIL.

[Crews]

BTW - I still think in metric so will be going Mil. Inches and yards make no sense to me....I still battle with Fahrenheit too.

Milrad is living right anyhow. It doesn’t really matter what unit of measure you think in when you’ve got a calibrated ruler 3” in front of your face at all times.

Never the less, the numbers are smaller and on-the-fly math is much easier. I can double or half a decimal place wind hold much faster than the mind fuck of doing the same with fractions. Also, rules of thumb are cool and easy with mils.

For example, the wind/mph rule. Basically, the first number of your bullet’s G1 BC is usually the “MPH” gun you have. For instance, 175 SMK has G1 of .505 so it’s probably a 5mph gun. So..... with a 5mph full value wind the hold would be a tenth of the distance to target in yards. (0.3mil at 300 yards, 0.4 at 400 yards, etc.). You can guess how easy it is from there to come up with a quick wind hold.


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[TOTS]

You are getting some good advice from this thread. To pick out some wisdom:
-spending most of the budget on glass is better than rifle

- definitely better to have a higher quality glass than the one with the most magnification. (Good rule of thumb is about 1.5 magnification for each 100m is a nice workable range from good glass; more is better but too much is worse).

- FFP is really the best option for most precision style shooting. You already know if you are the shooter that needs SFP

-Mils vs MOA; mils is the most universal. If you shoot with others or have a spotter, I would just match reticles. The MUST is having turrets and reticles match.

-priority for a scope is 1) repeatability of turrets (or the accuracies in the reticle if you only hold) 2. Glass quality 3. Features such as illumination. The overall durability of it to not break or lose zero is a given.

- again, hate to sound like a snob, but the Strike Eagle, I just wouldn’t. The PST is where you stop in the Vortex lines. It’s a very good features/ price value. Also good is the Bushnell DMR. If you can get a gen 2 or even 1 DMR for sub $800-1K, that’s probably the best value option. Bushnell DMR, Burris XTR, Vortex PST; those are your best bets for entry level lines that will also last or be able to resold. If you ever want to upgrade, you end up stuck with shit scopes.

-Tikka is a great option over a custom action. Decide what features are important to YOU and how you shoot. Ie, a T3 in a KRG Bravo chassis and stock CTR are both about the same price and just as good. Just different.

-saving budget for ancillaries is also needed. It’s frustrating to not have confidence in your high dollar setup since the $30 bipod is flexing or your Amazon Chinese rings Are letting the scope slip.

-Spend the money the first time. Instead of buying that $30 bipod, shoot off a pack for a while until you can save for a quality bipod

-there is wisdom in spending money on good instruction. A good instructor will help you only buy what you need and be able to help you avoid wasting money. Ultimately the ammunition will be the most expensive part of the package. It’s easy to save +$100 in ammo costs by having a pro teaching you things like zeroing or finding errors and issues quickly.

[Crews]

Personally, I find my MIL optics somewhat irritating on a range with targets in yards, but the math is not really that bad and I'm just a baby about it.

What math are you talking about here? I shoot mils and I reference all my ranges in yards. There are dozens of free solvers that can be used, and they all use metric/standard interchangeably however you’d like. Unless I’m missing something there shouldn’t be any need for conversions unless you’re just a glutton for punishment.


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[entropy]

Thought this was a “location” thread...I’ll toss in my .02 FWIW...which is nothing.

I’m just a high drag/slow speed nobody. I took up the long range sport as a way to relax and fiddle. I enjoy aerodynamics, physics, and monkey level math. I have two buddies that are about the same and we get together a half dozen times a year or so when the weather is good and shoot out to 1K+ on steel. In the meantime, I fiddle, tune, reload, and hit the short range. Been playing almost 10 years at it now.

Observations. Not advice. Here we go....

I started with a AR platform in .223. I believe this was a mistake now. Too many variables with the AR (upper/lower fit, semi auto, barrel/receiver fit etc) While a .223 may be easy to load blaster level ammo in, when it comes to precision reloading it’s advanced level. Things are small...bullets, cases, etc. Charges are small and a little variance in charge weight is a bigger % and the inaccuracies are magnified. Wind effects the lighter bullets more. Hard to tell if you suck, it’s windy, or a dozen other variables.

Smartest thing I ever did was buy a Remington 700 5R MilSpec in .308. That’s when I began to learn. Easier to load. Action stable and time tested. Some may poo-poo about Remington, long throats on the 5R’s and a zillion other things...but they work. It began life with a simple 10x fixed Bushnell. Then went to Vortex. That’s currently my glass of choice. Quality is good, warranty is beyond question (no...I’ve never had to use mine and I have 4 of them) and they are semi local for me. Prices on glass are whatever you are willing to pay. I found the PST and Razor series my happy place.

.308 allows you to reload and experiment to your hearts content. The number of bullets by various manufacturers in .308 number in the hundreds. Same with powder. I settled on Varget and RE15. There are countless others. That’s half the fun in my opinion. If you choose not to reload in the beginning or not at all, .308 (under normal conditions) is pretty easy to locate. Quite a few proven performers sold in 20rd boxes.The info for hand loading is voluminous. Charge weights in the 40-50gr region which allows plenty of practice per pound of powder. Things are bigger and easier to handle.

Given the right loads, bullets and atmospherics, it can easily get you to 1000yds. I do it regularly in warmer weather. Sub zero...notsomuch. It kicks more than a .223, but it is more forgiving in every area. It’s a good trainer for both larger stuff, and smaller. I’ve settled on .308 and .300wm.

Nothing wrong with a decent stock. The 700 came with an HS Precision. I later upgraded both the Remington and my Stiller WinMag to KRG Bravo chassis. Just this week I turned around and sold the SA chassis. Put the HS Precision back on. I found the chassis to be cumbersome and out of place on the .308. Ran it for about 2 years like that. I might do the same with the Stiller. I still have the M24 stock for that too.

It’s easy to get carried away on advice. Keep it simple. Spend your own money. Upgrade as you go. As you improve (pick an area) you will find what you like...whether it’s glass, stocks, reloading dies...you’ll find your happy place. It most likely will be different than lot of advice you get.

Enjoy. I’ve found it to be one of the most relaxing and technologically complex things I’ve toyed with outside my day job. Don’t get too wrapped up and keep an open mind to learn.

Oh yea...edit to add. I use MOA. It’s really no big deal. My mind works better with it, and you get to the same place at the end. It’s like English vs. Spanish. It’s just a language. In practice, I personally see no difference and my brain just deals with whatever unit I’m dealing with.

[Wise_A]

Anything to do with targets and measuring POA/POI. For instance--there are plenty of offset targets available for MOA scopes at 100 yards, and there are plenty available for MIL scopes at 100 meters. If I use a 10cm offset target, I should be clicking 1mil @ 100m, 2 @ 200, etc. Instead, it's 1mil + 1 click, 2mil + 2 clicks, etc. Personally, I don't find my MOA optics to be any more difficult to work with, so it's all just minor annoyances.

If I really wanted to bitch, the "300-yard" line at my everyday range is actually at 285 yards.

[Oukaapie]

All advice is appreciated. Now if I could get the either of the two instructors I emailed to respond that would be fantastic. How the fuck people survive by ignoring potential customers asking them what dates work to give them money is beyond me.