Rioting ROE

[whomever]

This is inspired by the Missouri case being discussed in other threads. I'd like to hear the local cognescenti's opinions on what the couple should have done, in that specific or similar situations, from both a legal and tactics POV.

Non-exhaustive list of discussion points:
1)Your basic choices are defend the house or E&E out the back door. Any other choices?
2)Legally speaking, in most states you are in the clear if you cede the yard and only defend the interior of the house?
3)#2 seems like it work well unless arson is in the attacker's toolbox. Any indication of that would severely complicate things. IIRC there was a case in Canada a few years ago where someone opened fire on people throwing molotovs at their house, and it was viewed as not justified. But that is Canada.

In any event, I'd like to hear 'what would you have done' and any general thoughts on how to prepare for/react to similar situations.

[RoyGBiv]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puM1k-S86nE

[willie]

My wife would have kept her ass inside. I would have stood in my door with a slung weapon if and only if they were on my property and announcing intention to do harm. Otherwise, I would have remained inside. No pointing. No posturing.

[whomever]

RoyGBiv: nice, but relatively few suburban rooftops have practical access to the roof, or any cover from the roof. Even if you are going full Rooftop Korean, I'd think that requires defending starting some distance out from the structure, with the legal ramifications that entails. If, for legal reasons, you cede the yard, then defending from the rooftop seems like it would also cede access to the first floor, ...

[RoyGBiv]

RoyGBiv: nice, but relatively few suburban rooftops have practical access to the roof, or any cover from the roof. Even if you are going full Rooftop Korean, I'd think that requires defending starting some distance out from the structure, with the legal ramifications that entails. If, for legal reasons, you cede the yard, then defending from the rooftop seems like it would also cede access to the first floor, ...

yes... but... in this case....

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56550&d=1593446032

And, FWIW.... I've killed deer from the roof of my double wide.

And nobody is getting into my locked first floor without taking casualties.
What would Karens do faced with incoming fire?

[whomever]

"yes... but... in this case...."

Right. I'm interested more in the general case than this specific case.

[BehindBlueI's]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the couple in question weren't the targets. I don't live in a gated community, but if I see a group of people marching by my house making noise, I'm going to let a group of people march by my house making noise. I see no reason to insert myself into that problem. I see no reason to give the crowd the intel of where I am, what I'm armed with, and how many of us there are prior to even knowing if hostilities are imminent.

Simple question, did they increase or decrease their risk by the actions they took?

As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws and a host of "what ifs" where any tweaking of facts may change allowable answers. What does *your* state say about defending curtilage with deadly force? What do you know about the ability and opportunity to cause harm to you? What's the imminent threat to you? Is there a forcible felony (say, arson of an occupied structure) about to occur? Or are they just marching by yelling and throwing piss bottles in the yard? Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?

[Arbninftry]

One thing to notice is every one of those douches have a phone pointed at would be victims. They want to pick clips and throw it out there with a one sided view. So if you live in a probable or highly volatile area, know who YOUR camera man is and where are YOUR security cameras. Get out publicly first and go to friendly sites and post the video, once its out there a judge really cant gag order you.
ROE
I can legally meet force with force and if I fear for the safety of my family, I will do what is needed.
Secure yourself and family with whatever force the law will allow, knowing that if you do give a douche a head canoe, have your ducks in a row.
Secure the family,
secure the house and property or E&E to a safe house or rally point. If you do E&E, know they might burn the place up, so take important files, marriage license Passports, birth certificates a computer back up, and money. People forget cash you may need it for gas or lodging.
Make sure everyone knows the plan and where to go. Rehearse.
Know your local LEs and support them, they are more likely to stick their neck out for someone they know, or if you live in an area where they are wanting to disband the Police, buy one lunch and tell them thanks.

I am from an area, that if you fuck around, they drop your body in a mine shaft in Picher, OK.

Other than that always have a gun on you, you see rifles you better have one and hope your people know how to use what is needed when. Meaning don't give your wife a shotgun when she does not know how to load it.

[Nephrology]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the couple in question weren't the targets. I don't live in a gated community, but if I see a group of people marching by my house making noise, I'm going to let a group of people march by my house making noise. I see no reason to insert myself into that problem. I see no reason to give the crowd the intel of where I am, what I'm armed with, and how many of us there are prior to even knowing if hostilities are imminent.

Simple question, did they increase or decrease their risk by the actions they took?

As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws and a host of "what ifs" where any tweaking of facts may change allowable answers. What does *your* state say about defending curtilage with deadly force? What do you know about the ability and opportunity to cause harm to you? What's the imminent threat to you? Is there a forcible felony (say, arson of an occupied structure) about to occur? Or are they just marching by yelling and throwing piss bottles in the yard? Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?

Also seems like the woman pointing her handgun at the protestors may have been in violation of a law or two, and the photos of this are now an indelible part of public record.

[RJ]

Below is my post on the other, specific to incident thread. In response to the question posed in this thread, "what the couple should have done, in that specific or similar situations, from both a legal and tactics POV." Reiterating, I am not a lawyer, and am only familiar (kinda) with Florida law, but I don't find much fault with the couple's actions.

Placing myself in their shoes:

1) I observed multiple persons destroy a physical barrier and gain access onto my private property

In FL, I believe this property would count as "curtilage" in the context of trespass, I dunno about MO. Point being, they have now "broken into my house, and are in my living room". This may be a key turning point on this incident - did the protestors have a "right" to be where they were - I say no.

2) Mob screamed multiple angry credible threats of harm to me, my property and family (proving jeopardy), had multiple visible weapons (proving ability), and outnumbered me, I am older and not mobile (proving opportunity).

3) I armed myself, and multiple times ordered them to vacate my property and leave. Absent a direct thread requiring a shot, the mob withdrew (eventually) off my property. This is a good result, as far as I am concerned.

Here's one problem for the couple; absent a threat of death or great bodily harm to me (gun pointed at me, bottle of clear yellow liquid with cloth at the top being lit by a lighter), menacing approach with an impact weapon) I believe I would keep my weapon at low ready, with finger out of the trigger guard. I don't know what MO law is with regard to pointing a gun at someone.

I seriously doubt this would have ended the way it did, had the homeowner not taken up a rifle.




I AM NOT A LAWYER

I thought as a homework exercise, I would look up FL law as regards open carry and/or brandishing and/or openly displaying firearms.

We've got a few sections of Chapter 790:

790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Chapter 776 defines Justifiable Use of Force.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

For deadly force, the key section, 3A is:

A person who is in a dwelling or residence in which the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and use or threaten to use:

...

(b) Deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

"Reasonable fear" is defined as:

The person against whom the defensive force was used or threatened was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

It seems reasonable to have a conversation with myself as to how I would articulate the above to a judge, after a shooting (did not display weapon threateningly; I had no duty to retreat in my dwelling; and that I used deadly force as necessary to prevent my own or my loved ones death or great bodily harm.) Or as they say, was there Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy for harm. I think if I saw a large armed mob of people busting down my gate and entering my private property armed with weapons, screaming epithets at me, probably qualifies to have a master grip and go to the low ready, at least (or whatever is the equivalent for a long gun, of which I do not know). If, after an enthusiastic "BACK THE FUCK UP", they don't leave, and continue to advance, I'd need to articulate why I raised my gun and made a decision to fire. Same if they held a glass bottle filled with yellow liquid, and proceeded to apply a lighter to a piece of cloth sticking out. I think a reasonable person would conclude doing that, or someone pointing a gun at me, would be a justification for shooting in self-defence.

The statues also mentions occupied vehicle, so my presumption is everything above applies to me in my car.

Obviously circumstances might vary, but that's where I come out interpreting things in FL. As an asterisk, I don't see where curtilage is addressed in FL law, so I'm not sure how that plays out for me, or I'm missing it.

Comments on my thinking welcomed.

EDIT: I did find Curtilage, in FL law, for burglary and trespass, defined here:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.09.html

" As used in this section, the term “unenclosed curtilage” means the unenclosed land or grounds, and any outbuildings, that are directly and intimately adjacent to and connected with the dwelling and necessary, convenient, and habitually used in connection with that dwelling."

[MickAK]

This is inspired by the Missouri case being discussed in other threads. I'd like to hear the local cognescenti's opinions on what the couple should have done, in that specific or similar situations, from both a legal and tactics POV.

Non-exhaustive list of discussion points:
1)Your basic choices are defend the house or E&E out the back door. Any other choices?

I think so. Recently in Snohomish, WA, there was a protest planned shortly after the ones in Seattle turned into violent riots. The local folks were out on the street armed. One of them spoke to the leaders of the protest and basically said 'You're welcome to protest, but there will be no property destruction, no grafitti, and no littering'. One of the protesters handed him a Black Lives Matter sign. He took it, and everyone marched peacefully and went home.

It's always a good idea to talk to your neighbors, even if they suck. I think it's particularly important in this situation. You don't want JoeBob spraying rounds from his house into yours. Going to talk to the leaders/instigators will give you a good idea of what might be coming. At any rate, informing them that there will be armed citizens can possibly avoid tension later if they see people with ARs standing about. This isn't always possible of course, these things don't always follow planned routes, but sometimes they do.

Arson's not just a possibility, it's what's going to happen if things go south. The people that instigate/incite these things train for it. They have incendiary devices ready. They also have window breakers and other fun things made up. They've had a lot of May Days in Seattle to get good at this. Here's a few things I would do.
1. Have sprinklers going in all parts of your yard. The strong jet kind that go back and forth. Have them wetting your house at the back swing and going about 30 degrees forward on the front swing. People have an odd repulsion to getting wet. Wet houses are harder to burn. It won't stop a determined arson attempt, but if someone else's house is burning it can save yours from drifting embers.
2. Talk with your neighbors and find out who's ready to defend themselves/what their plan is. You might be willing to run, but what about the 85 year old lady that lives across the street from you and won't leave her 9 cats? Are you going to stand by while her house is broken into and vandalized? Have a plan before you get mad and do something anyways.
3. Talk with local LE/FD if possible and find out what they are dealing with in your area and if they're going to be able to do anything for you. I don't want to be out there armed with a bunch of stressed, sleep deprived tense cops while they come to that old lady across the streets house, but I don't want to abandon her if there's no help coming for her either.

I don't have any comments on the legal side of things.

[fixer]

Somewhat in jest...." oh crap...my two Rottweilers accidentally got out. Sorry!"

1. Have a plan upfront for this situation.
2. Decide where your line in the sand is. What are you comfortable ceding? Meaning, are you willing to get doxxed and whipped into a political frenzy online because someone's toe touched your property line?
3. Gather valuables and valuable information and have a vehicle ready for exfil.
4. Call authorities to let them know what is occurring and let them respond. If this is a no go then see #1.
5. Consider other means of intimidation like large dogs. This seems to work well in european riots.

(I just put down my ancient Labrador. I wanted to take a pause managing dogs...but reconsidering now.)

[JodyH]

Until I see uninterrupted video from the time the gate was broken up through the crowd moving on it's hard to say what my ROE would be.
If they broke the gate down and were heading past my home without paying it any attention, I'd bunker down inside and not confront them even if a few of them were trampling my grass and knocked over my lawn jockey.
If they broke down the gate and then focused their attention on my house, exiting the house to take up a cover/concealment position outside and confronting them as early as possible while the wife does overwatch from inside is a good viable tactic.
Sheltering in place only works if the mob isn't large enough to surround you. Once the Molotovs start flying your options become extremely limited as in burn to death or exit through a fatal funnel.
There's no way two people can cover all four sides of a small house, much less a house the size of the one in the news.
Personally I'll take my chances outside, on foot with freedom of movement and rely on my shooting skill, grasp of tactics, use of cover/concealment and pure aggression.

[Zincwarrior]

My wife would have kept her ass inside. I would have stood in my door with a slung weapon if and only if they were on my property and announcing intention to do harm. Otherwise, I would have remained inside. No pointing. No posturing.

Wiener dog is almost stone deaf. Wife is selectively hard of hearing and like to remind me by saying "what!?!" a lot. I am hard of hearing and don't really care what happens outside. Odds are we wouldn't have noticed.

PLUS....I don't live in a FIVE STORY MANSION next to the mayor. :cool::(

[Zincwarrior]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the couple in question weren't the targets. I don't live in a gated community, but if I see a group of people marching by my house making noise, I'm going to let a group of people march by my house making noise. I see no reason to insert myself into that problem. I see no reason to give the crowd the intel of where I am, what I'm armed with, and how many of us there are prior to even knowing if hostilities are imminent.

Simple question, did they increase or decrease their risk by the actions they took?

As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws and a host of "what ifs" where any tweaking of facts may change allowable answers. What does *your* state say about defending curtilage with deadly force? What do you know about the ability and opportunity to cause harm to you? What's the imminent threat to you? Is there a forcible felony (say, arson of an occupied structure) about to occur? Or are they just marching by yelling and throwing piss bottles in the yard? Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?


The kewlest and best dressed hamster on the internet appears wise indeed.

[Darth_Uno]

I seriously doubt this would have ended the way it did, had the homeowner not taken up a rifle.

That's the dichotomy. We'll never know. As it is now, nothing happened, which is the best thing that could've happened - but the media says "here's some rich assholes with guns".

Now it'd be pretty damn unexpected to see rioters make it all the way to my neck of the woods, and I think local LE would be more on my side than theirs. Nobody comes down my street, and certainly not into my yard, without a reason. So, different setup/rules/optics than living in a metro area.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This may go against the flow of the attaboys, but be real. If there were armed protesters and they wanted this couple, they would have lasted - now how long would it take most of us to shoot two targets? Two seconds.

Whether the marchers had plans to or in the spur of the moment were going after their mansion is an unknown. Did they go after any other houses with no armed folks out front?

It was said in the other thread, that they faced down armed protesters. I'm sorry, two folks don't face down an armed mob. It is more likely they weren't interested in that house. Yeah, some folks probably yelled crap at them.

I read they are going on Tucker Carlson - what happened to bit to shut up and talk through your lawyer and only to the law when necessary? That's the usual part of the AAR of your ROE.

[RJ]

I'm sorry, two folks don't face down an armed mob.



And yet, that seems to be exactly what happened.

[JodyH]

This may go against the flow of the attaboys, but be real. If there were armed protesters and they wanted this couple, they would have lasted - now how long would it take most of us to shoot two targets? Two seconds.
You're saying that if an armed mob wanted them they'd have had better odds unarmed?
Whether the marchers had plans to or in the spur of the moment were going after their mansion is an unknown. Did they go after any other houses with no armed folks out front?
They were the first house the mob came to. Nothing slows your roll like the first person you meet sticking a rifle in your face. Might have dampened their enthusiasm for mayhem.
It was said in the other thread, that they faced down armed protesters. I'm sorry, two folks don't face down an armed mob. It is more likely they weren't interested in that house. Yeah, some folks probably yelled crap at them.
Point of order, the mob approached, saw guns, walked away peacefully. That's about as close as you'll get to a face down and the mob blinking first.
I read they are going on Tucker Carlson - what happened to bit to shut up and talk through your lawyer and only to the law when necessary? That's the usual part of the AAR of your ROE.
The two of them are lawyers, and judging by the house and neighborhood, pretty decent ones. Also, when the trial is taking place in the media, your defense better damn well be in the media as well.

My thoughts in red.

[Edster]

I have thought long and hard about this exact situation. I've imagined myself in the shoes of this couple. I've contemplated the potential consequences: legal, psychological, and even career.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I would want to get both of my cats in the house.

[JodyH]

I have thought long and hard about this exact situation. I've imagined myself in the shoes of this couple. I've contemplated the potential consequences: legal, psychological, and even career.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I would want to get both of my cats in the house.

I'm hanging a "HELP WANTED" sign in the front window...

[FrankinCA]

My thoughts in red.

@Jody, you articulated my feelings exactly. The gate was pushed in, it was/is a private street. Hell, that’s why they live in a gated community. Once that outer layer of security is breached, I think it was reasonable for them to feel scared. I think their muzzle discipline was poor, but hey I wasn’t there and glad no one was hurt.

[the Schwartz]

As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws... Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?


Part of my RoE for these turbulent times is obtaining a self-defense insurance policy. Most likely I'll not experience what those folks in St. Louis encountered, but if I have act in defense of me and my own, I'm going to have prepare for when my ''privilege'' is used against me as ''proof'' that I had no right to defend myself and my family.

[Borderland]

Part of my RoE for these turbulent times is obtaining a self-defense insurance policy. Most likely I'll not experience what those folks in St. Louis encountered, but if I have act in defense of me and my own, I'm going to have prepare for when my ''privilege'' is used against me as ''proof'' that I had no right to defend myself and my family.

You do have carry insurance, right? Is self-defense insurance something different?

[the Schwartz]

You do have carry insurance, right? Is self-defense insurance something different?

Yes, sorry for the incorrect terminology as both self-defense insurance and CCW insurance are one-in-the-same in my usage. Got a USCCA Elite policy that seems to be the best fit for my situation.

[Eric_L]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the couple in question weren't the targets. I don't live in a gated community, but if I see a group of people marching by my house making noise, I'm going to let a group of people march by my house making noise. I see no reason to insert myself into that problem. I see no reason to give the crowd the intel of where I am, what I'm armed with, and how many of us there are prior to even knowing if hostilities are imminent.

Simple question, did they increase or decrease their risk by the actions they took?

As far as "RoE", that's going to vary based on local laws and a host of "what ifs" where any tweaking of facts may change allowable answers. What does *your* state say about defending curtilage with deadly force? What do you know about the ability and opportunity to cause harm to you? What's the imminent threat to you? Is there a forcible felony (say, arson of an occupied structure) about to occur? Or are they just marching by yelling and throwing piss bottles in the yard? Do you have an attorney you can call if you shoot someone tonight? What do they say?

I think this is the best post concerning this debacle. Regardless of what you think about the “Lawn Lawyers” or their actions.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

Since the dust-up started a few weeks ago, we've had at least three protests/riots/marches (two that involved serious property damage) pass within one to two blocks of the house. The Portland Police Bureau precinct that was besieged last week is two blocks west and one block south of our front door.

As a result, the wife and I have had long talks about the "what ifs". Our personal ROE is to avoid confrontation unless it becomes absolutely necessary to defend ourselves from serious bodily injury or death. I'm not going to get into a verbal altercation if they're destroying property... even if that property belongs to us (this applies to our cars mostly - the house is a rental). Our "line" is an attempted arson of our home, an attempt to force entry of our home, or an attempt at a violent assault. My wife is pregnant, so a physical assault could have serious consequences for her/the baby's health, and I don't want my ass kicked (or killed) by a mob. If arson, home invasion, or an assault on us is not imminent, I'm staying out of it. I'm not interested in getting doxxed and having my life ruined unless it is absolutely necessary.

We have our family photos, heirlooms, passports, etc. readily accessible if we have to E&E. Long guns and magazines are staged, she has a gun at her desk (she's working from home) and I'm carrying at least an LCP as "Rule #1" gun at all times. When we leave the house, a Glock 19 gets added AIWB.

All that being said, most of the "action" in the city isn't even in our neighborhood, it is taking place downtown at the Justice Center. The protests/marches are made up mostly of "peaceful protesters" with a smaller number of violent agitators thrown into the mix. They seem to be content with vandalizing local businesses, tearing down statues, and attempting a MN-style precinct takeover. They haven't been accosting residents that I know of, and I haven't seen evidence of attempts at arson or break-ins of local homes. Its probably much ado about nothing, but better safe than sorry.

[ffchewy17]

What’s the consensus on bear spray ( counter assault ) for possible crowd control as a first line deterrent ? I’m thinking along the lines of a group of rioters who strayed onto my property and are coming close to the house entrance. Is it a viable alternative to the St Louis incident ? Instead of drawing down on a group of trespassers/looters/rioters with my long gun, using the bear spray ( 10.6 oz can, 40 ft reach, 6-10 second burst) as a Precursor to going to deadly force if needed. I would have preferred to have two cans of Sabre red mk9 , but those are unavailable to purchase for civilians, hence the 4 cans of bear spray.

I want to reiterate that this would be a last resort situation, I’m not looking to go out and confront a group of peaceful protesters just walking by. I would much prefer to stay out of there way, until I have no choice but to defend my home/family.

[jtcarm]

RoyGBiv: nice, but relatively few suburban rooftops have practical access to the roof, or any cover from the roof. Even if you are going full Rooftop Korean, I'd think that requires defending starting some distance out from the structure, with the legal ramifications that entails. If, for legal reasons, you cede the yard, then defending from the rooftop seems like it would also cede access to the first floor, ...

I’d rather go FTF with the mob than try & haul my fat ol ass up on my steep-pitched roof.

BTW, the OP mentioned bear spray. I once saw a rather extended thread on another forum on bear spray vs pepper spray. This included comments by several LEOs. There was no consensus on which was more effective for which scenario, but the upshot was bear & LEO-type pepper spray are not the same.

One comment that stuck in my mind is that a bear spray is intended to repel an animal that one of the most sensitive noses in nature, whereas pepper-spray is intended to disorient or incapacitate Homo sapiens.

I would suggest researching before picking one.

[BehindBlueI's]

What’s the consensus on bear spray ( counter assault ) for possible crowd control as a first line deterrent ?

I'd use something designed to be used on humans, such as: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002368VJ6

[MickAK]

What’s the consensus on bear spray ( counter assault ) for possible crowd control as a first line deterrent ? I’m thinking along the lines of a group of rioters who strayed onto my property and are coming close to the house entrance. Is it a viable alternative to the St Louis incident ? Instead of drawing down on a group of trespassers/looters/rioters with my long gun, using the bear spray ( 10.6 oz can, 40 ft reach, 6-10 second burst) as a Precursor to going to deadly force if needed. I would have preferred to have two cans of Sabre red mk9 , but those are unavailable to purchase for civilians, hence the 4 cans of bear spray.

I want to reiterate that this would be a last resort situation, I’m not looking to go out and confront a group of peaceful protesters just walking by. I would much prefer to stay out of there way, until I have no choice but to defend my home/family.

I think that's a bad idea for a couple of reasons.

The people involved in these things that are most prone to instigating violence are already prepared for less-lethal deterrents. They have respirators and goggles.

A common weapon at these incidents is a 'smasher', a long pole, often disguised as a flag or sign, with a length of chain with a padlock attached on the end. I think you'd have a really difficult time successfully attacking people with pepper spray without risking one of those upside your head.

If you fog out an area with bear spray you're likely going to catch some yourself. This isn't a huge problem if you're deterring a problem bear, you have other concerns, but it could be a problem if you're going to transition to lethal force on a crowd. I did some minor testing of this back when my plan was bear spray then gun, and it's doable but far from ideal and wouldn't work when identifying multiple targets quickly.

[ffchewy17]

How does the mace magnum 9 stack up against the Sabre red home defense?

I understand the likelihood of getting some blow back of the agent. Thanks for the info on “flag” flail weapon, first I’ve heard of it.

So any further ideas for crowd deterrent as far as less lethal for initial contact?

Thanks for the info

[MickAK]

How does the mace magnum 9 stack up against the Sabre red home defense?

I understand the likelihood of getting some blow back of the agent. Thanks for the info on “flag” flail weapon, first I’ve heard of it.

So any further ideas for crowd deterrent as far as less lethal for initial contact?

Thanks for the info

Honestly, I'd stand on the lawn and spray people with a hose while laughing. I'm not surrendering my lawn jockeys to the horde. People don't like getting wet.

Starting a fight is starting a fight. I'm not hiding in my house until it's on fire or the windows are getting broken in, but until it's time to shoot people I think hitting them with less lethal deterrents is more likely to make you a target than keep people away. The vast majority of these people are decent, misguided folks that have been lied to and had a narrative spun for them that they want to believe to get the dopamine rush of 'fighting for a cause'. If they get rowdy and break down a gate and you're standing there hitting them with pepper spray, that feeds into that narrative. If you're giggling while spraying them with a garden hose they'll probably laugh too, and if an instigator gets rowdy about it the crowd will probably side with you.

We need a tactical garden hose thread.

[Totem Polar]

Our "line" is an attempted arson of our home, an attempt to force entry of our home, or an attempt at a violent assault. My wife is pregnant, so a physical assault could have serious consequences for her/the baby's health, and I don't want my ass kicked (or killed) by a mob. If arson, home invasion, or an assault on us is not imminent, I'm staying out of it. I'm not interested in getting doxxed and having my life ruined unless it is absolutely necessary.

This is one of the better posts in the thread.

As my buddy Matt Graham used to say, people will have to come up to my level, I’m not stepping down to theirs. Meaning, my “line” is the same as yours. I’m not interested in engaging a mob unless it’s clear that it’s *really* time to engage.

[RoyGBiv]

This is one of the better posts in the thread.

As my buddy Matt Graham used to say, people will have to come up to my level, I’m not stepping down to theirs. Meaning, my “line” is the same as yours. I’m not interested in engaging a mob unless it’s clear that it’s *really* time to engage.

I think it's important to consider circumstances and not have a fixed plan. Like a lot of LE here say, sometimes a smaller amount of force early in the confrontation can avoid more force later. While I agree with the avoidance goal, if a mob is already engaged in mischief, it's important to consider what mischief has already occurred and whether it's escalating. Etc.