"Truck gun" for restrictive states

[alohadoug]

The threads on ARs as truck guns and PDWs got me looking into the concept more. Here's the rub, living in the wonderful Commonwealth of Massachusetts, I've got some restrictions to deal with, not considering the political/cultural.

Based on the reason decision by the AG, the sale/transfer of AR pattern rifles are prohibited. Yes, its being fought in court but I'm not hopeful. So that leaves out the AR. AKs are also questionable.

Commenting on this in the other thread brought up a folding stock FN-FAL. The hiccup to that is that folding/adjustable stocks are only allowed on pre-1994 receivers. State Assault weapon ban never sunset here. That includes the M1 Carbines.

A non-legal issue, everyone else in my family is cross-eye dominant. They all shoot long-guns left handed. I don't. So that basically eliminates the bullpups like the Tavor.

Given these parameters, what's your thoughts on an appropriate truck/bag gun? Semi-auto, bolt, or lever action. I'd consider any of them.

[DpdG]

Pre-94 greatly restricts choices. Being masshole-land, keeping it as least scary looking as possible might have value, so on the semi-auto side probably either M-1 Carbine paratrooper or one of the folding mini-14's (keeping in mind neither M-1 carbine or mini-14 are renown for reliability). If manual actions are in play, maybe some sort of take-down lever gun, like a 1873 in .357/38? Beyond that, are the folding Kel-tec things like the Su-16 a possibility?

[Lon]

How about a shotgun? Beretta 1301T would make a good truck gun. Set up w a CROM and the MRDS of your choice and you’ve got a nice setup.

[Nephrology]

How about a shotgun? Beretta 1301T would make a good truck gun. Set up w a CROM and the MRDS of your choice and you’ve got a nice setup.

My thoughts exactly.

[Totem Polar]

Restrictive state and multiple members of the family (assuming different shapes and sizes) needing both left and right hand access = lever gun all day long to me.

But then I like lever guns.

One could do worse than a nice lever with a low-mounted LPVO.

[BillSWPA]

Not being familiar with MA laws, my first thought would be the CA compliant version of the Kel-Tec SU-16.


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[Paul D]

I agree with everything above as far as shotgun and lever gun. However, if cost is not a factor then maybe a Desert Tech MDR is an option. You can outfit it as a 556 or 308. It is completely ambidextrous. The spent casing slides forward on ejection so it won't hit your face one way or the other. You can use Magpul 10 round mags for MA compliance. Though Kel-tec's quality is suspicious, they do offer inexpensive folding rifles that take magazines.

[Bigghoss]

I was looking at the Browning '81 takedown yesterday. Looks like a nice traveling gun. Down side is that they run $1,000 and only hold 4 rounds. I bet the mags are expensive too. I also had my eye on an old Savage 99 takedown in .30-30. But those have an internal fixed magazine.

You might be better off with an 870P with a folding stock or something.

Is the Fightlite SCR legal there? That might be the best option.

ETA: Totally forgot about the Ruger PCC.

[FNFAN]

I was looking at the Browning '81 takedown yesterday. Looks like a nice traveling gun. Down side is that they run $1,000 and only hold 4 rounds.

Double your pleasure. Double your fun!

https://www.luckythirteen.com.au/product/straight-fit-centre-fire-range/

[spelingmastir]

If you can’t/won’t spend the crazy money for pre ban stuff, I think an MCK with folding brace is the best option- especially if you carry railed Glocks. The bonus is that they aren’t firearms.

[Inspector71]

Another vote for a Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle in .30-30 caliber. LASD had them I believe well up into the 1960’s. Jeff Cooper thought pretty well of the Win model 94. Keep the extra stuff off of it. You don’t need a ghost ring sight, night sights, white lights, or a sling. Any person with reasonable eye sight should be able to shoot reasonable groups with open “buck horn sights” just fine. This is the KISS principle to the extreme. If it should be stolen/lost/destroyed/confiscated/seized, you aren’t out a lotta money.

[Bigghoss]

Double your pleasure. Double your fun!

https://www.luckythirteen.com.au/product/straight-fit-centre-fire-range/

I've seen those. Are they even available in the states? Last I heard they were only in Austrailia. Plus they're $100 each.

[OlongJohnson]

I like the 1301, but it's a little long for what I think of as a truck gun. Wouldn't want to have to manipulate it inside the cab, but if you're thinking about exiting the truck and fighting close range threats, it's probably the best option around.

Does the folding stock restriction apply to semi-autos only, or to all long guns? There was a Remington 7615 at Collector's Firearms here in Houston for ~$600 a few weeks ago. Might still be there, as there's little reason to own one of those in Texas. If there's a folding stock option (870 stuff might cross over, I don't know), that might not totally suck.

I also think the Fightlite SCR is interesting for ban states, especially if travel is involved, as splitting the receivers lets the whole thing pack short.

If you can find one of the Chiappa Alaskan takedown 1892s, that was discussed several months ago, I think in the lever gun thread. Likely to be much smoother than a Marlin out of the box, but expensive. A Marlin 336 in .30-30 is probably the default least expensive, most likely to be decent option. And there are lots of them around.

A Stevens 311 cut down to 18.5 inches would be super light and compact. Also discussed recently. If you're talking about reloads inside the truck, the break-open action might require more space than you have.

[Old Man Winter]

Browning BAR Mk3 DBM. 308 w/ 18" barrel available in wood or synthetic stocks. Mags offered in 5/10/20 round capacity. FNAR is more or less the same rifle.

[Malamute]

The model 12 Winchester shotgun is another option if it needs to be compact in storage. They come apart at the middle, both barrel and magazine, at the front of the receiver. Shooter grade examples can be had fairly reasonably. I added a sling and rifle sights after cutting the barrel to 20", which is what the butt and receiver measure when taken apart. I used the Williams Shorty shotgun ramp front and a Remington model 700 rerar sight milled to the barrel diameter and sweated on. The sling mounts are easy, you may want a semi-talented gun mechanic or smith to install the sights, or just go with a front bead which you may be able to do yourself. A good pad is also a worthwhile improvement. They hold 5 or 6 rds from the factory, I forget which. Takedown or reassembly takes maybe 15 seconds.

565195652056521

[Rex G]

Browning BLR, as already mentioned. I have one Takedown, and one mid-/late-Nineties Lightning, both .308 Winchester.

Shotguns, as already mentioned. I have pair of M2 Benelli shotguns, but the current hot gun at P-F is the Beretta 1301. The days of pump guns being “best” are in the past. I have seen men, stronger and more athletic than me, short-stroke their Remington 870 duty shotguns, too often for me to recommend pump guns to anyone who is not already familiar with them.

A big favorite of mine, not yet mentioned: .357 Magnum revolver, The all-American road gun, in a model and barrel length hefty enough to absorb some serious recoil. I like the GP100.

[RevolverRob]

AR rifles are banned, but are AR pistols?

My understanding is Mass doesn’t consider SBRs to fall under their AWB? In which case this may be a rare instance where you are better off acquiring an NFA item, in lieu of a pistol.

The question is - what are the regulations on transporting a loaded rifle or shotgun?

The benefit of the “PDW” pistols are that they can be carried loaded and concealed under a concealed handgun license.

If an AR pistol is out and carrying a loaded long-gun is out the answer - in my opinion is goofy looking...

The SCR FiteLite: https://fightlite.com/pistols/scr-pistol-300-blk

A Mare’s Leg Pistol: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/865812130

For the Mare’s Leg, Henry makes a nice one - BUT it doesn’t have a loading gate. So you’re probably not going to reload it. The Rossi versions are discontinued and hard to find...that’s okay they sucked anyways. The Chiappa is really the way to go, in my opinion, it has a loading gate and is much higher quality than the Rossi. I just linked to the first one I found, but I would target a .357 Mag version myself for the extra capacity over .44 or .45. A 125-grain Gold Dot out of a 12” barrel wouldn’t be anything to sneeze at. Or Barnes VorTx 140-grain .357 Magnum.

Of course you can run .38 for practice in a .357 gun.

If I was going to try to make either of these weapons work - I’d want to figure out a mount for a reflex (RMR) type optic. You’ll be brining the gun up to cheek level and a low mount red dot will greatly improve the accuracy.

[stinx]

a lever gun in 30/30. :Legal everywhere, ammo easy to get, can be found dirt cheap, I picked up a clean Winchester 30/30 for under $300 bucks at a NH gun shop. The same gun in Ma wa shop would have been $500plus.

[SteveB]

I went the lever gun route for this role as well; from a Model 94 to a 336 with RDS. I found, though, both shooting and reloading on the timer, the CZ 527 carbine in 7.62x39 was a better choice.

56539

56540

[03RN]

I think a good lever gun (we all have our favorites but it doesn't really matter imo) or bolt.

Detachable mags are nice if you need to drive with an empty gun.

Since I dont have a truck anymore I have a backseat gun. I keep my shockwave in a SAW barrel bag. Ideally if im in a violent encounter while in my car Im going to focus on driving but I can quickly pull out the shockwave if i needed.

Another good option would be a cheap old surplus g22 in a flux brace. RDS and surefire x300.

For more traditional rifles a M1 or sks would also be a good choice to keep unloaded.

Any shotgun that you like would work too.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

IMHO, ahem, stay away from the Kel-tec that was suggested. I've seen one of them break their stock off in carbine class. Read other reports of the the same. Second, the lever gun. Better learn to run it reliably. Just don't buy it and toss it in the truck for the zombie hordes. Saw a guy at a carbine match, screw up being Lucas McCain with short strokes. Then it jammed and we had to wait while he and the SO figured it out.

Lots of folks around here have the Ruger 9mm carbines with the plain barrel. Yeah, 9mm, stopping power - OMG!

[Hambo]

A non-legal issue, everyone else in my family is cross-eye dominant. They all shoot long-guns left handed.

-Ithaca 37 with rifle sights.
-Lever gun in .30-30, .35 Rem, or .44 mag.

[45dotACP]

I went the lever gun route for this role as well; from a Model 94 to a 336 with RDS. I found, though, both shooting and reloading on the timer, the CZ 527 carbine in 7.62x39 was a better choice.

56539

56540Reloading I understand...but you can shoot a bolt action faster than a lever action?

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[4given]

I went with a Marlin 1894CS in .357 mag 18 1/2" barrel for some of the same reasons as you describe.

[entropy]

Everyone concentrates on OAL, but the slim profile of a lever gun allows it to be snuk into some tight spaces. I have a scabbard that slings about perfect behind my rear truck seat. A piece of saddle skirting from Tandy, a few simple tools, and an afternoon would allow you to whip up something legal and suitable I’m sure. I have an AR pistol and an older 94 for just this. The 870 is the 3rd option. You just have to be a bit innovative and realize that you’re going to be loading upon removal.

[03RN]

Reloading I understand...but you can shoot a bolt action faster than a lever action?

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With equal power i can go as fast.

Keep the bolt between your thumb and index finger and pull the trigger with your middle.

[entropy]

I’m just some guy wandering across the double yellow line into another lane...

I think though, that once you start discussing REAL rifle calibers, rate of fire in a civvy situation starts becoming less relevant. I’d be far less concerned about split times if I was forced to utilize a 30-30, 45-70 or similar to defend myself. I’ve never been shot at, nor had to use a weapon to defend myself, but sometimes I think we suffer by scurrying down rabbit holes that lead nowhere. The world has become a weird place, but all things considered presently, the need for a belt fed is not on the horizon.

Talk to me in a month.:(

[45dotACP]

With equal power i can go as fast.

Keep the bolt between your thumb and index finger and pull the trigger with your middle.Ah, I really need to work on my riflecraft.

I forgot that was even an option until just now.

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[Duelist]

-Ithaca 37 with rifle sights.
-Lever gun in .30-30, .35 Rem, or .44 mag.

Love my Ithaca. Ejection port same as loading port with enthusiastic throwing out the bottom is a good thing.

My lever gun is a .357, though. More rounds in the tube, and with 158gr JSPs, 100 yards is very reasonably in range.

[RevolverRob]

You know...

This is MASS compliant: https://ruger.com/products/pcCharger/specSheets/29101.html

Plus one of these: https://www.sb-tactical.com/product-category/brace/picatinny/

If you've got any pre-ban Glock mags on hand they will work in the Charger. Otherwise, you're going to be limited to 10-rounds in any semi-auto weapon anyways, you might as get quick change mags and a compact package. Remember one goal of the "truck gun"/"PDW" is the ability to get faster and more accurate hits with it than your pistol.

Another thing to think about, something like a Charger with the brace folded is compact enough to sling across your body and drive with. Or deploy from inside a vehicle with the brace folded. You simply aren't going to get that with a bolt or lever action rifle or pump shotgun (outside of perhaps a Shockwave/Tac-14 type weapon).

I don't know if I can stress this enough - the weapon needs to be accessible and ready to go from inside the vehicle.

The time where I could have potentially used such a weapon...I was going to ram into a motorcycle at relatively high speed. Thus a car crash and subsequent mobbing was inevitable. I definitely did not have time to retrieve a shotgun and load it. I had a pistol on my person and that was going to be my tool. If I'd had some kind of PDW pistol in a backpack, assuming the backpack wasn't lost in the subsequent crash (i.e., secure it properly), I could have retrieved the weapon from that bag and deployed it.

I pretty much view any "trunk gun" - the core idea being a full-sized rifle or shotgun that must be loaded prior to use to be about as useful as tits on a mule, particularly if you're stuck in a mob. Look at the videos right now for how quickly crowds mob a vehicle and think to yourself, "Could I get a weapon out of my trunk and load it in that time?" The short answer is, "Probably not."

[John Hearne]

Isn't this still 50 state legal?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFvtRLNUwAAEjMQ.jpg

[TripleP]

You know...

This is MASS compliant: https://ruger.com/products/pcCharger/specSheets/29101.html

Plus one of these: https://www.sb-tactical.com/product-category/brace/picatinny/


This would run afoul of the MA AWB for pistols.

[RevolverRob]

This would run afoul of the MA AWB for pistols.

Ah, you're right. I was confused on which states this is compliant with.

Well, someone should petition Ruger to build a MA Compliant version.

[TripleP]

Ah, you're right. I was confused on which states this is compliant with.

Well, someone should petition Ruger to build a MA Compliant version.

I wish they could but they literally can't. (C)i & (C)iv make 2 "evil" features.

Handguns/Pistols:
(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

[RevolverRob]

I wish they could but they literally can't. (C)i & (C)iv make 2 "evil" features.

Handguns/Pistols:
(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and


Damn, I didn't see the weight limit. They could eliminate the handguard and the threaded barrel, but I don't know if they can chop 33.2 ounces off of the gun (weighs in at 83.2 ounces).

[alohadoug]

Damn, I didn't see the weight limit. They could eliminate the handguard and the threaded barrel, but I don't know if they can chop 33.2 ounces off of the gun (weighs in at 83.2 ounces).

That's how they keep AR pistols, even the old M1 Carbine pistols out. Plus handguns have to deemed compliant through testing sponsored by the Mass State Police (that's the published list that FFLs can transfer). Then there's the unpublished AG's list based on Consumer Protection Clause...don't ask...

There have been alot of good suggestions so far. I'm beginning to suspect that I'm on the hunt for the Holy Grail.

Or maybe a good compound bow set. :)

[RevolverRob]

That's how they keep AR pistols, even the old M1 Carbine pistols out. Plus handguns have to deemed compliant through testing sponsored by the Mass State Police (that's the published list that FFLs can transfer). Then there's the unpublished AG's list based on Consumer Protection Clause...don't ask...

There have been alot of good suggestions so far. I'm beginning to suspect that I'm on the hunt for the Holy Grail.

Or maybe a good compound bow set. :)

I'm guessing the Mare's Legs suggestions aren't on the compliant list(s)...They aren't semi-automatic so the elements of the AWB shouldn't apply.

Okay wait...I have an idea and it's fucking crazy but hear me out.

I just looked apparently hand guns made prior to 1998 don't have to be on the handgun roster, right?

Inglis Hi-Power - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870723501

Broomhandle Mauser 'Red 9' - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872178239

Artillery Luger - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872107369

I know it's absurd...but
1) Shoulder stock
2) detachable mags (in the case of the Luger and HP)
3) they are not SBRs according to the NFA (being exempt under C&R eligibility).
4) Legal to carry on your person under a concealed handgun act.
5) Exempt from the MA Roster Requirements.

No law says you have to use the stock Inglis upper and barrel or safety on your gun when shooting it. You could get an upper built, dovetailed rear sight with a MRDS dovetail and use an RMR/DPP, use an updated thumb safety...I bet you can even find pre-ban high-capacity Hi-Power magazines...

[alohadoug]

Okay wait...I have an idea and it's fucking crazy but hear me out.

I just looked apparently hand guns made prior to 1998 don't have to be on the handgun roster, right?

Inglis Hi-Power - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870723501

Broomhandle Mauser 'Red 9' - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872178239

Artillery Luger - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872107369

I know it's absurd...but
1) Shoulder stock
2) detachable mags (in the case of the Luger and HP)
3) they are not SBRs according to the NFA (being exempt under C&R eligibility).
4) Legal to carry on your person under a concealed handgun act.
5) Exempt from the MA Roster Requirements.

No law says you have to use the stock Inglis upper and barrel or safety on your gun when shooting it. You could get an upper built, dovetailed rear sight with a MRDS dovetail and use an RMR/DPP, use an updated thumb safety...I bet you can even find pre-ban high-capacity Hi-Power magazines...

Excuse me, I'll be in my quarters....

[Bigghoss]

I'm guessing the Mare's Legs suggestions aren't on the compliant list(s)...They aren't semi-automatic so the elements of the AWB shouldn't apply.

Okay wait...I have an idea and it's fucking crazy but hear me out.

I just looked apparently hand guns made prior to 1998 don't have to be on the handgun roster, right?

Inglis Hi-Power - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870723501

Broomhandle Mauser 'Red 9' - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872178239

Artillery Luger - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872107369

I know it's absurd...but
1) Shoulder stock
2) detachable mags (in the case of the Luger and HP)
3) they are not SBRs according to the NFA (being exempt under C&R eligibility).
4) Legal to carry on your person under a concealed handgun act.
5) Exempt from the MA Roster Requirements.

No law says you have to use the stock Inglis upper and barrel or safety on your gun when shooting it. You could get an upper built, dovetailed rear sight with a MRDS dovetail and use an RMR/DPP, use an updated thumb safety...I bet you can even find pre-ban high-capacity Hi-Power magazines...

Or how about something like this perhapse?
https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Tailhook-AR15-Brace-Stock.jpg

Or this?
https://i.redd.it/qrtuzqh39to31.jpg

Or maybe one of those chassis systems that a pistol fits inside?

I have one of the ENDO adapters as a range toy. They're not quick to put on so it would basically require a dedicated gun. But any of the brace options would be much cheaper than an Inglis Hi-Power or an artillery Luger.

[alohadoug]

Or how about something like this perhapse?
https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Tailhook-AR15-Brace-Stock.jpg

Or this?
https://i.redd.it/qrtuzqh39to31.jpg

Or maybe one of those chassis systems that a pistol fits inside?

I have one of the ENDO adapters as a range toy. They're not quick to put on so it would basically require a dedicated gun. But any of the brace options would be much cheaper than an Inglis Hi-Power or an artillery Luger.

I need to look into something like that for the Beretta 92. I have enough pre-ban (pre-1994) magazines for those.

[RevolverRob]

Or how about something like this perhapse?
https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Tailhook-AR15-Brace-Stock.jpg

Or this?
https://i.redd.it/qrtuzqh39to31.jpg

Or maybe one of those chassis systems that a pistol fits inside?

I have one of the ENDO adapters as a range toy. They're not quick to put on so it would basically require a dedicated gun. But any of the brace options would be much cheaper than an Inglis Hi-Power or an artillery Luger.

The only downside to those...that maybe an Inglis Hi-Power has an advantage over - the availability of pre-ban magazines in Mass.

I'm sure there are Pre-Ban Glock mags available, but I'd guess they are in higher demand than Hi-Power mags.

The CAA Roni, maybe? https://caagearup.com/product/new-mck-2-0-micro-conversion-kit-ballistic-bag/ <-That is the Glock version, but they also have a Sig and a Smith and Wesson version if anyone is running a 320 or M&P.

Still going to be limited to 10-round mags. So maybe step up to a .40? If you're shooting it from a braced position, the extra recoil shouldn't matter, you at least get bigger/heavier bullets...

[RevolverRob]

I need to look into something like that for the Beretta 92. I have enough pre-ban (pre-1994) magazines for those.

https://caagearup.com/product/roni-stabilizer-roni-stab/

Roni available for the Beretta...

[alohadoug]

https://caagearup.com/product/roni-stabilizer-roni-stab/

Roni available for the Beretta...

I work on a DoD installation and our Security Forces use them.

Might consider doing this..

[luckyman]

What about a Ruger Mini Thirty?

No features that trigger the “evil assault rifle” rule like a folding stock or pistol grip

Still has a detachable mag to optimize the transition out of the “must be unloaded when transporting in a vehicle” state

No need for the extra practice needed to cycle a lever or bolt gun quickly (of course, that’s not really an issue if you are using the lever or bolt for hunting also)

Of course it is not nearly as cool as a lever action .... I’m really Jonesing for a takedown lever action right now.

[Coyote41]

What about a Ruger Mini Thirty?

No features that trigger the “evil assault rifle” rule like a folding stock or pistol grip

Still has a detachable mag to optimize the transition out of the “must be unloaded when transporting in a vehicle” state

No need for the extra practice needed to cycle a lever or bolt gun quickly (of course, that’s not really an issue if you are using the lever or bolt for hunting also)

Of course it is not nearly as cool as a lever action .... I’m really Jonesing for a takedown lever action right now.

A friend just bought a BLR in .308. Cool rifle, but it seemed to shift zero when taken down. Also the internals are more complicated than a swiss watch.

Otherwise, great rifle and it will serve him well hunting with it. I am close to buying one for that purpose, but I’d opt for something else for personal protection, even in a ban state.


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[okie john]

Another vote for a Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle in .30-30 caliber. LASD had them I believe well up into the 1960’s. Jeff Cooper thought pretty well of the Win model 94. Keep the extra stuff off of it. You don’t need a ghost ring sight, night sights, white lights, or a sling. Any person with reasonable eye sight should be able to shoot reasonable groups with open “buck horn sights” just fine. This is the KISS principle to the extreme. If it should be stolen/lost/destroyed/confiscated/seized, you aren’t out a lotta money.

Agree on lever guns, disagree on the upgrades.

The 30-30 is an honest 200-yard cartridge with a 150-yard zero. A peep sight is a big help in reaching out that far. You also get that precision up close while losing almost no speed to open sights.
Night sights let you work in near darkness, which is when a lot of bad stuff takes place. I know from decades of hunting deer in gloomy Pacific Northwest forests that there comes a point when you just you can't see your sights but you can still see deer or people moving around in the gloom.
A white light lets you positively identify targets but you have to know ho to use it or it will draw fire.
A sling frees up both hands for other chores like carrying a wounded person or a child.

For the situation in question I'd say the order of importance is sling > ghost ring > night sights > white light. Fortunately, it's not hard to find used lever guns that already have the ghost ring sights and the sling, and most gun store owners cut the price of them because they've been modified.


Okie John

[Bigghoss]

I need to look into something like that for the Beretta 92. I have enough pre-ban (pre-1994) magazines for those.

Other than the Roni I have not seen or heard of any braces for them. And I'm a dedicated follower of the pizza gun.



I work on a DoD installation and our Security Forces use them.

Might consider doing this..

I work security on a DOD installation. I wouldn't necessarily consider that an endorsement. The people making the purchases usually aren't knowledgeable gun folk. I've never laid hands on a Roni so maybe it's a decent product, I don't know. If they are, or there's a similar product that is I'd be interested in getting one.

[60pilot]

I went with a 16” Rossi R92 in .357 for this purpose. It’s shorter than my 10.5” SBR with the butt collapsed and is slim enough to easily tuck under the back seat of my small truck. Being a lever gun avoids legal issues in most any state I could reasonably find myself in.

[ECVMatt]

I like the levergun for this role, but have slowly been warming up to the Ruger American Ranch. I have a couple of them in 7.62x39 and they are both great shooters. They have the same power as a .30/30, cheaper ammo, better accuracy and are magazine fed/reloaded.

This is a post from another forum with an brief review:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ruger-american-ranch-7-62x39-follow-up.845741/

They make the same rifle in 5.56 that takes AR style magazines. Additionally you can purchase the AR mag adaptor and use it in the 7.62x39 rifle if you prefer AR style x39 magazines. the biggest negative for the Ruger is that it doesn't have iron sights. You could keep a small red dot in the go bag as back up, but it is one more thing to carry and service.

It is also hard to beat a good lever action. I think Marlins end up being a better choice. They have many more options for modification over the Winchester. I would be happy with .30/30, .44M, or .357M.

I am currently living behind enemy lines and can attest to the fact that lever actions and bolt actions draw very little attention compared to semi-autos. I believe that some of the pistol modifications being discussed here are a big No/No in California.

[OlongJohnson]

The RAR also comes in .300 BLK, our current hotness for a defense caliber, and current production (make sure you don't get an old one, they switched and the receivers are different) takes AR mags.

https://ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/26968.html

jlw got one in Grendel, I think, and is going to be working with it quite a bit.

[sickeness]

I know they aren't popular with the tactical crowd but with a bit of work, you can make a pretty decent fighting gun out of a Mini 14, assuming you have one that shoots well.
It's actually a bit of a challenge to find decent upgrade gear for these things so I had to DIY a lot of stuff.
I cut down the stock 1" on this and added QD sockets and a pic rail/light to it along with an Aimpoint PRO, handles pretty well and shoots decent enough for under 100 yards.

https://i.imgur.com/x7GuEHX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Cssk2hO.jpg

[Bigghoss]

I'd rather have an SCR but if I lived in a ban state I would for sure give in to my urges to get a Mini or two.

I'd also try to get my hands on an unconverted Saiga. A Magpul Zhukov handguard and an extended safety would make for a good featureless rifle.

[willie]

People have different assumptions. Mine are that a truck gun would be used at close range and that factory sights would suffice. For me the fewer items hanging off a truck gun the better. A Mini-14 should work well in this role. I no longer use a truck gun out of fear of theft when I park. However, for many years I traveled between Texas and Mississippi with a visible 870. I also had a handgun in a brief case which I would lock if stopped. After I left my area where I was known, I would have denied having a handgun in my vehicle which at that time was a prohibited weapon in Mississippi and Texas. Also, I would have denied permission to search my vehicle.

[jlw]

I did get a Ruger American Ranch in 6.5G. I swapped it into a compact stock and topped it with a 1-8 Strike Eagle. Pictured below is a three-shot group into a 2" circle target at 50 yards with the rifle laid over a backpack.

https://scontent.fatl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p960x960/100626933_1502615049941877_5714092299542069248_o.j pg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=2d5d41&_nc_ohc=RXdZPiHKVlUAX9cCXwo&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-2.fna&_nc_tp=6&oh=a961eced26a6217db1c75759e3b06838&oe=5F220EDC


I'm very pleased with the rifle. The one drawback is that you really have to work the bolt with meaning to mitigate feeding issues. I have no data as to whether one in 5.56 or .300BLK would feed better, but I do think there would be better magazine options. I am considering setting up one in 5.56 for training/concept purposes. The other benefit would be travel with 10-round mags but being able to "source" 30-rounders on the road.

[sickeness]

I'd rather have an SCR but if I lived in a ban state I would for sure give in to my urges to get a Mini or two.

I'd also try to get my hands on an unconverted Saiga. A Magpul Zhukov handguard and an extended safety would make for a good featureless rifle.

You know I considered both of those options prior to going with the Mini 14 but neither are really very good.

The SCR is only available now with low-comb the wood stock which precludes having any kind of cheek-weld with the rail height of AR uppers, not to mention the fact that they are $600 plus now and the company has no customer service presence to speak of other than a full voice mailbox. The older "monte carlo" stock with the high comb is now unobtainium.

Unconverted Saiga prices are now north of $1000 if you can even find them. The ergos of the unconverted Saiga are pretty shitty and unless you are over 6' tall, you aren't gonna be able to comfortably reach the handguard and any forward light/laser controls, since the stock adds an extra 2-3 inches from where your face would sit on a standard AKM. In addition to that, the trigger linkage bar precludes you from ever having anything other than a terrible trigger with the sporter stock.

[RevolverRob]

I have sometimes wondered if Ruger could/should re-engineering the Mini-14 to take STANAG mags.

Such a step would eliminate the MEH-ness of the Mini-14s proprietary mags and provide a good non-AR alternative for those stuck in ban states.

I know the Ruger-made Mini magazines aren’t bad, but a switch to a standard magazine of which there are a bajillion would be nice.

FYI: All the Fight Lite SCRs on their website show Monte Carlo stocks - https://fightlite.com/rifles/scr

There is also always opting for a cheek riser kit - https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0188KMVT6/ref=psdcmw_4200871_t1_B01FYHHF2Y?th=1&psc=1 which might be prudent even with a Monte Carlo stock with AR-height mounts.

Sucks that their CS is non existent though.

[Bigghoss]

I liked my .308 Saiga before I did the conversion. I like it more after but it worked just fine for me before I did it. Yeah, they're all $1000+ now. Only a few years ago the 5.56 versions were reasonable but even they're expensive now. I scored a 5.56 a few years ago from a gun shop that was closing down, got it for right around $500 which was a good price even then. Did a rear conversion on that one right away, threw a Zhukov handguard on the front and left the magwell alone since SGM mags for it aren't super expensive.

I occasionally check GB for them hoping to luck into a reasonably priced one but I seriously doubt that will happen.

[sickeness]

I have sometimes wondered if Ruger could/should re-engineering the Mini-14 to take STANAG mags.

Such a step would eliminate the MEH-ness of the Mini-14s proprietary mags and provide a good non-AR alternative for those stuck in ban states.

I know the Ruger-made Mini magazines aren’t bad, but a switch to a standard magazine of which there are a bajillion would be nice.

FYI: All the Fight Lite SCRs on their website show Monte Carlo stocks - https://fightlite.com/rifles/scr

There is also always opting for a cheek riser kit - https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0188KMVT6/ref=psdcmw_4200871_t1_B01FYHHF2Y?th=1&psc=1 which might be prudent even with a Monte Carlo stock with AR-height mounts.

Sucks that their CS is non existent though.

The stock I am referring to is the poly Monte Carlo which is about a half inch higher than the wood one. (Based on my half assed fumbling from memory at a gun store)
I really wish a competent company would take hold of the patent to give the platform the attention it deserves, based on my interactions with the company they *appear* to be a fly-by-night operation where the sales/CS have no actual knowledge of the product, availability, etc.

https://www.straterratactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/downloadfile-7.jpg

[RevolverRob]

The stock I am referring to is the poly Monte Carlo which is about a half inch higher than the wood one. (Based on my half assed fumbling from memory at a gun store)
I really wish a competent company would take hold of the patent to give the platform the attention it deserves, based on my interactions with the company they *appear* to be a fly-by-night operation where the sales/CS have no actual knowledge of the product, availability, etc.

https://www.straterratactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/downloadfile-7.jpg

Gotcha. Didn’t realize we were talking the poly only.

Fight Lite has always seemed a bit...flighty (flitey?)...

If I wanted one of these, I’d probably just buy through a third party vendor, assuming I’m sort of stuck with the configuration I get, short of modifying it myself. Buy two of them, since it’s a proprietary lower and proprietary bolt...

Or don’t and buy a Mini-14/Mini-30...

I wonder if the SCR is any more accurate than a Mini?

[frozentundra]

With equal power i can go as fast.

Keep the bolt between your thumb and index finger and pull the trigger with your middle.

I have a Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39. As an emergency tool, I think 10+ round detachable mags for bolt guns make them more practical than lever guns if your rifle needs to be stored unloaded. In my state, long guns have to be unloaded in vehicles.

A bolt gun in 5.56 that feeds off Pmags could be pretty handy and really fun to shoot. 7.62x39 Federal Fusion does pretty well through intermediate barriers (auto glass) and is still extremely pleasant to shoot; it also has the cheapest training ammo available. 6.5 Grendel has more performance at range without much recoil in a light platform.



I've practiced firing with the social finger, and I can produce pretty good results at social distances. These guys have been an inspiration to me.


https://youtu.be/VWIi5m9-0S8?t=2

[sickeness]

Gotcha. Didn’t realize we were talking the poly only.

Fight Lite has always seemed a bit...flighty (flitey?)...

If I wanted one of these, I’d probably just buy through a third party vendor, assuming I’m sort of stuck with the configuration I get, short of modifying it myself. Buy two of them, since it’s a proprietary lower and proprietary bolt...

Or don’t and buy a Mini-14/Mini-30...

I wonder if the SCR is any more accurate than a Mini?

I'm sure it is more accurate since AR platform.
But $650+ for a complete lower with damn near no factory support, manufacturer specification and absolutely no customer service is a huge gamble. I literally called fightlite every day for a week (this was PRIOR to COVID back in Jan/Feb) before I got someone on the line and not the "full" voice mailbox. The person I spoke with was a customer service rep sounded like the front office lady who had no information at all about the product and stated that there were not any technicians there to answer my question. Emails were not helpful either. I appears, just as a wild ass guess by me, that the company in FL does not manufacture anything, some other shop they farm out to makes and assembles the guns/lowers and they just sell them and deal with the distributors.

Speculatively, I don't know exactly how proven the platform is and I don't trust the company to make it right.

At the very least you know the Ruger will "run" albeit not at a great level of precision, as there are LE agencies and foreign militaries that do issue them.

[ECVMatt]

The bummer about the SCR is that they have a great idea and a huge market. I believe they have switched gears and are pushing a light weight, belt fed upper of some sorts. I wish they would sell the SCR to someone who would actively pimp it.

Until then, like others have said, I would stick to the Mini. I have had years of good service out of my 580 series. They are much better than the previous versions.

[sickeness]

The bummer about the SCR is that they have a great idea and a huge market. I believe they have switched gears and are pushing a light weight, belt fed upper of some sorts. I wish they would sell the SCR to someone who would actively pimp it.

Until then, like others have said, I would stick to the Mini. I have had years of good service out of my 580 series. They are much better than the previous versions.

Ares probably didn't have the will or the manufacturing capacity to handle what they had created. Sold the design off to some unknown venture capital-type operation who at the end of the day has no interest in further developing the concept and just wants to use the patent to make a quick buck with a minimal company footprint.

I really feel like there is a lot of lost potential here, too bad a company like DD or LMT didn't buy the patent.
If they produced them on a large scale with a really good in-house stock (similar to an SGA) and priced them around $350-400, they would sell like hotcakes in the multitude of ban states.

[AKDoug]

A buddy of mine brought one of these to the range. He writes for some outdoor publications and I got to play with it a bit. Lots of fun.

https://worldoftroy.com/product/troy-folding-pump-action-rifle-optic-ready/56600

[alohadoug]

A buddy of mine brought one of these to the range. He writes for some outdoor publications and I got to play with it a bit. Lots of fun.

https://worldoftroy.com/product/troy-folding-pump-action-rifle-optic-ready/56600

That might be an interesting option.

Does anyone else have experience with those?

[Cecil Burch]

I would suggest taking a look at this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19699-NY-Long-gun-choice&highlight=york


It was a long discussion on essentially this topic. Some of the thoughts and options brought up were really interesting and had a different take that got the brain turning.

[RevolverRob]

Troy also has a Straight Pull version - https://worldoftroy.com/product/troy-16-straight-pull-rifle/ - Which should be 50-state legal.

Cool option, folding stock, straight pull, AR mags, available in 5.56 or .300BO. Could be a really great traveling around the country choice, if you're potentially going to hit any "guns bad!" places.

[alohadoug]

I would suggest taking a look at this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19699-NY-Long-gun-choice&highlight=york


It was a long discussion on essentially this topic. Some of the thoughts and options brought up were really interesting and had a different take that got the brain turning.

Thanks. that thread raised a number of ideas/issues/thoughts that directly impact my choices.

I'm going to have to reconsider exactly what I'm looking for (purpose: PDW in a bag for SHTF or Long gun in trunk/case).

thanks to all....

[RevolverRob]

Wait, I just saw this on the Mass.gov website


Yes. Many rifles, shotguns, and pistols are not copies or duplicates of enumerated Assault Weapons. For example, the following are not copies or duplicates under G.L. c. 140, § 121:

Any handgun on the August 2016 version of the state’s Approved Firearms Roster, available here.
Handguns are still subject to MA 940 CMR 16.00 et seq Consumer Protection Regulations;
Any .17 or .22 caliber rimfire rifle;
Any Ruger Mini 14 or substantially similar model weapon;
Beretta Cx4 Storm
FN PS90 or substantially similar model weapon;
IWI Tavor or substantially similar model weapon;
Kel-Tec Sub-2000
Kel-Tec RFB
Any Springfield Armory M1A or substantially similar model weapon;
Any of the hundreds of rifles and shotguns on this list —Appendix A to 18 U.S.C. § 922, as appearing on September 13, 1994;
Any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
Any weapon that is an antique, relic, or theatrical prop;
Any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition;
Any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

This list is not exhaustive; it is meant for illustrative purposes only. Many other weapons are not Assault Weapons or copies or duplicates of Assault Weapons.

If you've got a bunch of pre-ban Beretta 92 mags.

Then a CX4 Storm "90" model that uses Beretta 92 magazines would seem to be the ideal choice. Since you have Pre-94 bodies - can you add extensions to them? You can easily get a +4 extension maybe even larger. That would get you close to 20-rounds on tap. I'd never feel bad with 20-rounds of decent self-defense 9mm out a 16" gun. Sure it could be "better", but it could be worse too...Just about any decent bonded HP will work out fine...add a red-dot on top and you'll have a good little carbine you can also shoot frequently, because it's cheap to shoot as well.

Unless you have pre-ban Mini or AR mags on tap, you're still going to end up with 10+1 capacity in those weapons. If you do have those available, ignore me and buy a Mini or one of the Troy pump/bolts and upgrade to rifle rounds.

[Redhat]

Browning BLR, as already mentioned. I have one Takedown, and one mid-/late-Nineties Lightning, both .308 Winchester.

Shotguns, as already mentioned. I have pair of M2 Benelli shotguns, but the current hot gun at P-F is the Beretta 1301. The days of pump guns being “best” are in the past. I have seen men, stronger and more athletic than me, short-stroke their Remington 870 duty shotguns, too often for me to recommend pump guns to anyone who is not already familiar with them.

A big favorite of mine, not yet mentioned: .357 Magnum revolver, The all-American road gun, in a model and barrel length hefty enough to absorb some serious recoil. I like the GP100.

Is it not also possible to short stroke a lever rifle?

[OlongJohnson]

Does anyone have a readable copy of "Appendix A to 18 U.S.C. § 922, as appearing on September 13, 1994?"

Looking at current code, it's been repealed and the next several pages are just lists of amendments. Could take all afternoon to try to untangle that mess and figure out what it used to say.

[Malamute]

Is it not also possible to short stroke a lever rifle?


Good question. It may be possible, though ive not heard of it nor done it in quite a lot of lever shooting with various types. I havent short stroked a pump either in shooting skeet or sporting clays, nor a bolt gun.

I for one would be skeptical of the cowboy action method of short stroked actions and finger flicks of the lever rather than longer but more forceful hand movements, feeling it may be more susceptible to short stroking under stress, but that may just be my unfamiliarity with it, ive never had a short stroked action on a lever besides a browning 22 when I was a kid.

[Redhat]

Good question. It may be possible, though ive not heard of it nor done it in quite a lot of lever shooting with various types. I havent short stroked a pump either in sheeting skeet or sporting clays, nor a bolt gun.

I for one would be skeptical of the cowboy action method of short stroked actions and finger flicks of the lever rather than longer but more forceful hand movements, feeling it may be more susceptible to short stroking under stress, but that may just be my unfamiliarity with it, ive never had a short stroked action on a lever besides a browning 22 when I was a kid.

Me neither, but thought I'd ask anyway.

I've only had to run a lever gun fast once and that was an incident involving a wild boar at close range. :D

[TripleP]

Wait, I just saw this on the Mass.gov website



If you've got a bunch of pre-ban Beretta 92 mags.

Then a CX4 Storm "90" model that uses Beretta 92 magazines would seem to be the ideal choice. Since you have Pre-94 bodies - can you add extensions to them? You can easily get a +4 extension maybe even larger. That would get you close to 20-rounds on tap. I'd never feel bad with 20-rounds of decent self-defense 9mm out a 16" gun. Sure it could be "better", but it could be worse too...Just about any decent bonded HP will work out fine...add a red-dot on top and you'll have a good little carbine you can also shoot frequently, because it's cheap to shoot as well.

Unless you have pre-ban Mini or AR mags on tap, you're still going to end up with 10+1 capacity in those weapons. If you do have those available, ignore me and buy a Mini or one of the Troy pump/bolts and upgrade to rifle rounds.

While extensions are GTG on Pre-94 magazines, all of the Pre-94 Beretta 92 mags I have seen for sale have been the dimpled 15 rnd ones that won't accept an extension without milling the dimples out. I have seen some Pre-ban non-OEM big sticks available for the 92.

[alohadoug]

Does anyone have a readable copy of "Appendix A to 18 U.S.C. § 922, as appearing on September 13, 1994?"

Looking at current code, it's been repealed and the next several pages are just lists of amendments. Could take all afternoon to try to untangle that mess and figure out what it used to say.

Welcome to life around here trying to figure it out...


While extensions are GTG on Pre-94 magazines, all of the Pre-94 Beretta 92 mags I have seen for sale have been the dimpled 15 rnd ones that won't accept an extension without milling the dimples out. I have seen some Pre-ban non-OEM big sticks available for the 92.

I've got to dig through my pile and see what I've got. I'm thinking the CX4 may be the best of the worst options I've got.

[vcdgrips]

Late to the party

.357 mag pistol caliber lever action/sling/sights I can see/white light/butt cuff.

Maybe something like this for an out of the box solution

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever-action/model-1894/model-1894-csbl

[Rex G]

Is it not also possible to short stroke a lever rifle?

Yes, one can short-stroke lever rifles, and, short-stroke DA revolvers, or any other manually-operated weapon. One can short-stroke while running the slide of an auto-loading pistol, or the charging handle of an auto-loading rifle. One can short-stroke while cocking the hammer of any hammer-fired weapon.

More than any of the above, I have seen physically-fit human beings short-stroke their pump shotguns, the shotguns they carried on duty, to save their lives, and others’ lives. I observed this during quals and during training. One colleague short-stroked multiple times, during an eight-hour tactical shotgun class.

After three-plus decades of never short-stroking a pump gun, well, it happened to me, during live-fire training, and then it happened again, during a different live-fire training, soon afterward. I had “lost my rhythm,” and then it became a self-fulfilling anxiety issue, repeatable during dry practice. I “went to therapy” with a firearms training officer, at the PD range. He prescribed a shorter-length stock, and plenty of repetitions. With several thousand reps, using a Magpul stock, with no spacers, I regained my rhythm, but my long arms and long neck “hate” a too-short LOP, while trying to get a sight picture, so, it was time to return* to the Benelli system, to take advantage of the Comfort-Tech stock

I do still successfully use Remington pump guns, which have been relegated to stock-less condition. My old duty 870P now has a Pachmayr Vindicator rubberized grip, and my Tac-14 Marine Magnum has its mandated longer Shockwave grip, to keep it in the “Other Firearm” 26” long-gun category. When running these, I am pushing forward on the rear grip while pulling rearward on the fore-grip, so have never short-stroked this shotgun configuration. Indeed, with the emphasis on keeping the weapon forward, toward the target, the weapon hand is doing most of the pumping movement.

I hesitate, however, to recommend stock-less pump shotguns for truck-gun status, or any situation requiring fast follow-up shots. The folks who run these well know who they are, and don’t need my advice. One of my colleagues was a demigod/wizard, with his pistol-grip-only shotgun. Everyone else I have met, including myself, are mere mortals, with these weapons.

*I had used an HK/Benelli M1 Super 90, for duty and personal/home defensive purposes. The butt-stock of that era, however, was not kind to my face or shoulder, and, as high-brass loads were necessary to reliably cycle the action, every shot fired was a powerful kick. After I side-lined this gun, to replace a broken sight screw, I returned to pump guns, and later sold the M1 Super 90.

[Rex G]

In my above post, I mentioned running a Tac-14, and a stock-less 870P with a Pachmayr Vindicator grip. I want to add that there is so very little practical difference in length between these two weapons, and the Pachmayr Vindicator is the more-comfortable grip. It is fun to thumb one’s nose at the BATFEman, with a 14” smooth-bore Other Firearm, but the 18” shotgun, with a well-designed grip, is only a couple of inches longer, so, unless one has a very specific storage problem, there is little practical/tactical reason to opt for the Shockwaved 14” gun.

[RevolverRob]

It's threads like this that make me think about crazy things.

Like the Troy Straight Pull Rifle...I'm wondering if it uses a standard AR15 barrel...if so, I would want just an upper and the bolt assembly. So, I could build a ~10-12" or so .300BLK straight pull pistol.

I'd put the bolt handle on the weakhand side. When you're shooting up close you could more or less leave the weak hand on the bolt and run the gun with it and never have to lift your head or restablish a firing grip. At longer ranges, you can extend the weak hand out for more stability. When the gun is relatively short and balanced well, you should be able to hold it upright no problem as you dump through a 20 or 30-round mag.

It would take practice, but you could make it happen. It's just modifying your shooting technique for a short AR pistol/rifle.

[Bigghoss]

Welcome to life around here trying to figure it out...



I've got to dig through my pile and see what I've got. I'm thinking the CX4 may be the best of the worst options I've got.

I've got a CX4. Not a bad gun at all and the mags go into the grip so it's relatively compact.

[OlongJohnson]

It's threads like this that make me think about crazy things.

Like the Troy Straight Pull Rifle...I'm wondering if it uses a standard AR15 barrel...if so, I would want just an upper and the bolt assembly. So, I could build a ~10-12" or so .300BLK straight pull pistol.

I'd put the bolt handle on the weakhand side. When you're shooting up close you could more or less leave the weak hand on the bolt and run the gun with it and never have to lift your head or restablish a firing grip. At longer ranges, you can extend the weak hand out for more stability. When the gun is relatively short and balanced well, you should be able to hold it upright no problem as you dump through a 20 or 30-round mag.

It would take practice, but you could make it happen. It's just modifying your shooting technique for a short AR pistol/rifle.

I posted links to something like that in the PDW thread a couple months ago. Basically, a manually cycled star wars blaster. There's a big thread on .300BLK forum. Buy your own side charger upper, drill and tap the bolt carrier for a handle. Either D&T the port to plug it with a set screw or shrink a sleeve over it. Cut the back off the bolt carrier, and you can run a light spring and PIC-mount, folder BRN-180 style. It's quiet.

On the other hand, you can also get a CVA Scout rifle or pistol that's equally quiet. Doesn't eat from AR mags, but will be a lot cheaper and less fiddle-frackery.

[RevolverRob]

I posted links to something like that in the PDW thread a couple months ago. Basically, a manually cycled star wars blaster. There's a big thread on .300BLK forum. Buy your own side charger upper, drill and tap the bolt carrier for a handle. Either D&T the port to plug it with a set screw or shrink a sleeve over it. Cut the back off the bolt carrier, and you can run a light spring and PIC-mount, folder BRN-180 style. It's quiet.

On the other hand, you can also get a CVA Scout rifle or pistol that's equally quiet. Doesn't eat from AR mags, but will be a lot cheaper and less fiddle-frackery.

I'm thinking primarily for 50-state use...in places that suck vs. ultra quiet. Just better performance from a short barrel for .300BO vs. 5.56.

But the single shot thing is of interest to me for separate reasons. I guess we should have a thread on CVA Scout/Encore/Contenders/HR Handis/Etc. An - "All things Single Shot" thread?

[OlongJohnson]

There is a Contender thread already in the revolver section, because elegant weapons, civilized times and what not. I have been intending to get around to starting a single shot rifle thread one of these days.

[Wise_A]

I was considering kitting up a short-ish 870 or 590 for this task. I don't think any long gun is going to be terribly usable from inside my vehicle (I have a number of full-size handguns that would fill this role adequately), I just want something that could be kept handy and easily dismounted with. White light, sling, red dot or holo if I wanted to get spendy, some way to carry additional shells on my body. I don't think I have an actual use-case for this, it would just be another thing to have. A 1301 would definitely be way too big, and probably outside the budget.

As a side note, are there any SMEs that can speak to actually using a firearm from inside a vehicle? For instance, I'd be hesitant to go with a .357 Magnum for this task, because I enjoy hearing shit and would like to continue doing that. Is this reasonable?


On the other hand, you can also get a CVA Scout rifle or pistol that's equally quiet. Doesn't eat from AR mags, but will be a lot cheaper and less fiddle-frackery.

If you were going that route, I would buy a bare Remington factory action--note you can't use a donor action, because you're going to be logging this thing as a pistol, not a rifle. Add a Criterion Remage barrel, Magpul furniture (I'd go with a handstop, m'self), and however many Magpul or MDT polymer magazines you want. Now you've got 10-round magazines in a bolt-action pistol firing .300BLK, .308, or whatever other cartridge you want.

Not what I would pick, but there you go.

[secondstoryguy]

I've been thinking about the Q Fix mini's for this purpose:

https://www.liveqordie.com/products/mini-fix-300-blk-pistol/

[RevolverRob]

I've been thinking about the Q Fix mini's for this purpose:

https://www.liveqordie.com/products/mini-fix-300-blk-pistol/

That would be a pretty sweet rig, but it does seem the Mini-Fix is/was having some issues with feeding from some magazines. May be worth reading up on them on Sniper’s Hide if you haven’t already.

[ECVMatt]

I was considering kitting up a short-ish 870 or 590 for this task. I don't think any long gun is going to be terribly usable from inside my vehicle (I have a number of full-size handguns that would fill this role adequately), I just want something that could be kept handy and easily dismounted with. White light, sling, red dot or holo if I wanted to get spendy, some way to carry additional shells on my body. I don't think I have an actual use-case for this, it would just be another thing to have. A 1301 would definitely be way too big, and probably outside the budget.

As a side note, are there any SMEs that can speak to actually using a firearm from inside a vehicle? For instance, I'd be hesitant to go with a .357 Magnum for this task, because I enjoy hearing shit and would like to continue doing that. Is this reasonable?



If you were going that route, I would buy a bare Remington factory action--note you can't use a donor action, because you're going to be logging this thing as a pistol, not a rifle. Add a Criterion Remage barrel, Magpul furniture (I'd go with a handstop, m'self), and however many Magpul or MDT polymer magazines you want. Now you've got 10-round magazines in a bolt-action pistol firing .300BLK, .308, or whatever other cartridge you want.

Not what I would pick, but there you go.

I shoot rifles from trucks and as long as the barrel is outside the window frame it is not that bad.

I can comment specifically on the .357 as I was just shooting mine last week. It is not nearly as bad as say a .223 or a .308 in fact it is more of a "pop" than a huge explosion. The .357 out of a rifle is pretty tame, but I would still recommend hearing protection. I was shooting my Ruger M77/357 for reference.

[Joe S]

I always envision something like this for these situations:
https://www.breachbangclear.com/mall-ninja-as-fck-slung-up-glock/

I know it might look derpy to some, but if you're running a pistol caliber already, it gives you a very maneuverable, lightweight gun with common mags, easily extendable capacity with a 33rd mag, a little more stability than just a pistol, no cross dominance issues, nothing hard to source or expensive. Someone with more experience should comment on a bungee vs. rigid sling, as I thought a rigid sling set to arms extended would allow you to really drive the gun forward to keep it flat as hell.

The best part seems that if you thought there was a chance you actually needed it, it's low profile under a windbreaker or oversize flannel shirt, either before or after you have to use it. Easy to take in and out of the car by simply wrapping it up in that shirt, rather than a bigger bag, no need to take down.

56653

If that's too Tom Clancy super duper secret SpecOps squirrel, I have no idea. But it seems like it fits a niche to me.

[Trukinjp13]

Sorry if this has been touched on. In Michigan we are not necessarily a restricted state. But you can not carry a loaded long gun in your vehicle. I have been wanting to setup a “pistol” but am hesitant on caliber. I would prefer something with more punch given the intended use if needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Caballoflaco]

The problem with stocked glocks is there is no manual safety, so you need some kind of holster or something to protect the trigger. You couldn’t pay me to walk around with a loaded and slung glock that had an unprotected trigger when we know that slung rifles, smgs and shotguns with the safety off have resulted in people being injured and killed.

[Mark D]

You couldn’t pay me to walk around with a loaded and slung glock that had an unprotected trigger when we know that slung rifles, smgs and shotguns with the safety off have resulted in people being injured and killed.

Good point. I have it reliable authority that a large west coast police department had at least 2 NDs with slung firearms. In both cases, the long guns were on safe, originally, but contact with vest-mounted gear swiped off the safety. Sometime later, a careless finger or other piece of vest-mounted gear pressed the trigger. That's why ITTS teaches positive control of the slung firearm with at least one hand, at all times.

[Joe S]

The problem with stocked glocks is there is no manual safety, so you need some kind of holster or something to protect the trigger. You couldn’t pay me to walk around with a loaded and slung glock that had an unprotected trigger when we know that slung rifles, smgs and shotguns with the safety off have resulted in people being injured and killed.

I had considered some way of rigging up a Vanguard to deal with that. Had already though it, neglected to say so in the post.

Concept wise, do you feel it has to have a manual safety? Or would a DA trigger work?

[Caballoflaco]

I had considered some way of rigging up a Vanguard to deal with that. Had already though it, neglected to say so in the post.

Concept wise, do you feel it has to have a manual safety? Or would a DA trigger work?

I’m just a civilian who hasn’t been anywhere or done anything as far as fighting. With tha as a discalimer for me I want a safety if a weapon has a stock and sling (exception being a lever gun that I can give a dead trigger by lowering the hammer). I could imagine myself getting the trigger of even a D.A. gun caught on something and then pulled with enough force to make a loud noise, but I do have a vivid imagination.

[JTMcC]

If I could live with the range/power limits I'd (like many have already said) go with the .357 or .44 lever gun & a revolver to match.

If I wanted more range/power I'd buy a previously butchered Lee-Enfield (No. 1 or 4), cut the length of pull down as short as usable, cut the barrel as short as legal, add the sights of my choice, feed it PRVI soft points, throw a bunch of chargers and a couple loaded mags in a haversack and rock that baby coast to coast.
Very fast bolt, stupid reliable, easy to load, can be stored empty with a loaded mag ready to insert, a spectacular safety, plus the cool factor is off the chart.
But I love me some Lee-Enfields.

[Malamute]

If I could live with the range/power limits I'd (like many have already said) go with the .357 or .44 lever gun & a revolver to match.

If I wanted more range/power I'd buy a previously butchered Lee-Enfield (No. 1 or 4), cut the length of pull down as short as usable, cut the barrel as short as legal, add the sights of my choice, feed it PRVI soft points, throw a bunch of chargers and a couple loaded mags in a haversack and rock that baby coast to coast.
Very fast bolt, stupid reliable, easy to load, can be stored empty with a loaded mag ready to insert, a spectacular safety, plus the cool factor is off the chart.
But I love me some Lee-Enfields.

I think both ideas are workable. Ive been going with a lever for the most part.

This is a no4 Enfield I modified a few years ago, and unfortunately ended up having to sell. Barrel cut to 19", US1917 front sight band, sweated or pinned, (dont recall), it zeroed OK as is with the issue rear sight. I cut the stock back and moved the band back an inch or so to balance the looks. I liked it a lot.

56682

56683

[Wise_A]

I shoot rifles from trucks and as long as the barrel is outside the window frame it is not that bad.

I can comment specifically on the .357 as I was just shooting mine last week. It is not nearly as bad as say a .223 or a .308 in fact it is more of a "pop" than a huge explosion. The .357 out of a rifle is pretty tame, but I would still recommend hearing protection. I was shooting my Ruger M77/357 for reference.

Interesting! I always found .357 to be way worse than, say, a supersonic 9mm loading, but even that is apples-to-oranges due to the cylinder gap.

[JTMcC]

I think both ideas are workable. Ive been going with a lever for the most part.

This is a no4 Enfield I modified a few years ago, and unfortunately ended up having to sell. Barrel cut to 19", US1917 front sight band, sweated or pinned, (dont recall), it zeroed OK as is with the issue rear sight. I cut the stock back and moved the band back an inch or so to balance the looks. I liked it a lot.

56682

56683

Beautiful.
Buy an old junk buttstock, or a repop, cut it off and install a recoil pad on and it's even handier.
Stash 4 chargers on a buttstock carrier and Bob's your uncle:D

I like the lever option but I've been working a bolt since I was 5 years old so that's my happier place.
I've traveled (for work), dragging a 5th wheel RV from the Pacific to the Atlantic and the Canadian border to the Mex border with a 12 ga. pump, a .44 mag pump, and a 1911. I "think" I was legal everywhere I went. But I drove thru Cook County Ill without stopping and had most guns inside the RV.

[OlongJohnson]

My morning break at the LGS had me checking out the Browning BAR MkIII DBM and the Benelli R1, both in .308. The Italian job is, as you'd expect, quite a bit more svelte, but the Browning can be equipped with 20-round mags. I believe all the FN/Browning mags can be had for less than either version of the Benelli mags. If avoiding a pistol grip is key to legality, I reckon either one should work reasonably well. Neither is particularly compact, but the Browning at least comes with an 18-in barrel.

https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/bar/current-production/bar-mk3-stalker-detachable-magazine.html

[Bigghoss]

I think both ideas are workable. Ive been going with a lever for the most part.

This is a no4 Enfield I modified a few years ago, and unfortunately ended up having to sell. Barrel cut to 19", US1917 front sight band, sweated or pinned, (dont recall), it zeroed OK as is with the issue rear sight. I cut the stock back and moved the band back an inch or so to balance the looks. I liked it a lot.

56682

56683

Same idea, different execution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMdJBwLRHEQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygDjMt6h6w0

[JTMcC]

I REALLY like jlw's mag fed Ruger 6.5G on page 6, but that "feeding issues" bothers me some. Plus I'd like more HP out of a bolt gun but that's just me and the things I shoot at.
Lee-Enfields have fed reliably across every continent for 100+ years in all positions and all temperature from tropics to the arctic.

But I still like your rifle jlw.

The Colt Canada C19 that replaced the Lee-Enfields, is a very interesting rifle but like I said I'm fond of LE's.

[OlongJohnson]

I REALLY like jlw's mag fed Ruger 6.5G on page 6, but that "feeding issues" bothers me some. Plus I'd like more HP out of a bolt gun but that's just me and the things I shoot at.
Lee-Enfields have fed reliably across every continent for 100+ years in all positions and all temperature from tropics to the arctic.

But I still like your rifle jlw.

The Colt Canada C19 that replaced the Lee-Enfields, is a very interesting rifle but like I said I'm fond of LE's.

I'd be curious to run the RAR in Grendel vs. in .223, .300 BLK and 7.62x39. It may be that the feeding is smoother with the other cartridges. In the Howa Mini Action, there are many reports of feeding issues with 6.5G that apparently were not experienced with .223, .300 BLK and 7.62x39.

[Half Moon]

Interesting! I always found .357 to be way worse than, say, a supersonic 9mm loading, but even that is apples-to-oranges due to the cylinder gap.

Were you shooting a rifle though? .357 in our Marlin 1894 with a 16.5" barrel really is just a pop and recoil is negligible. I think it's because the powder gets consumed in the longer barrel. Plus of course no cylinder gap closer to your ears.

[Wise_A]

Were you shooting a rifle though? .357 in our Marlin 1894 with a 16.5" barrel really is just a pop and recoil is negligible. I think it's because the powder gets consumed in the longer barrel. Plus of course no cylinder gap closer to your ears.

No, I was thinking in terms of having a large handgun for inside-the-vehicle use, as a few others have discussed. I've no .357 rifles, although I toyed around with the idea of the CVA .357 Maximum single-shot, or a T/C, or the Ruger .357 bolt gun.

[Malamute]

This is the current favorite general purpose truck utility gun. It came as a 20", the 16" seem to get a couple hundred dollar premium. I did the cut, and have a local gunsmith that will cut the front sight dovetail for $40. I used a Lee case trimmer pilot turned down to fit inside the bore and the cutter as a guide to check muzzle squareness, hand filing until square. I think I used an RCBS deburring tool to crown it, I dont recall.

Older Leupold 1-4 in Leupold bases and low rings.

I think it meets the all state legal concept, besides just being what I like and prefer for a general purpose utility rifle. For the most part I havent found the need to shoot more than a couple-3 hundred yards in my daily life, not including specifically hunting for meat.

56709

I stick rounds between my off hand fingers to stage them while loading, it reduces the motions to load somewhat and keeps it in front of you once you get the shells in hand.

56710

[4given]

Here's one I put together for restrictive states. Non threatening, traditional looks and legal most places:

Marlin 1894CS 18 1/2 " barrel in .357 Mag. Skinner peep sight. Trigger and action job. Light, smooth, low recoil and accurate.


https://i.imgur.com/LuE7sTp.jpg?1

[GyroF-16]

I've got a CX4. Not a bad gun at all and the mags go into the grip so it's relatively compact.

Me too. I find it to be short and handy. It’s 30” long, but feels shorter to me.
Reliable, reasonably accurate, and easy to get hits with a RDS mounted. And B92 mags are plentiful (especially in my house).
The trigger can be okay, or pretty bad. I had mine upgraded.

The thing you give up is the significant “reach” of a real rifle, and the ballistics of a rifle cartridge.

[rcbusmc24]

If I could live with the range/power limits I'd (like many have already said) go with the .357 or .44 lever gun & a revolver to match.

If I wanted more range/power I'd buy a previously butchered Lee-Enfield (No. 1 or 4), cut the length of pull down as short as usable, cut the barrel as short as legal, add the sights of my choice, feed it PRVI soft points, throw a bunch of chargers and a couple loaded mags in a haversack and rock that baby coast to coast.
Very fast bolt, stupid reliable, easy to load, can be stored empty with a loaded mag ready to insert, a spectacular safety, plus the cool factor is off the chart.
But I love me some Lee-Enfields.

One of my long term projects is a previously bubba'd M1917 enfield that retained its iron sights, i'm chopping it to 18 inches moving the front sight and using the plethora of swedish mauser stripper clips I have loaded with 30.06 to feed it, those swedish mauser clips were a great buy... hold 30-06 like they were made for it, and work in all my 1903's and 1917's, unfortunately the 1896 SM I got them to go with is long traded off after I ran out of milsurp 6.5x55 at 8 bucks a box....

[Totem Polar]

Here's one I put together for restrictive states. Non threatening, traditional looks and legal most places:

Marlin 1894CS 18 1/2 " barrel in .357 Mag. Skinner peep sight. Trigger and action job. Light, smooth, low recoil and accurate.


https://i.imgur.com/LuE7sTp.jpg?1

This is just about perfect. There isn’t much that you might run into CONUS that you couldn’t tune right up with a tubefull from that rig.

[Wise_A]

Obligatory: I'm not a lawyer, and am also fucking stupid. You would be stupid to listen to me at all.

Apparently, the new hotness here in NY is a non-everything gun: pistol brace, barrel length of 16" or more, OAL w/ brace removed greater than 26", vertical foregrip, built from a 4473-transferred lower. So stuff like this rolling garbagecan/Trijicon advertisement is, according to proponents, legal:

56997

The dumpster fire above has a 10/30-round magazine, which is actually of dubious legality.

For the ATF:
--Pistol brace so it's not a rifle
--Vertical foregrip (groan) so it's not a handgun
--26" length with the brace removed so it's not an AOW (some places are reporting "with the brace fully extended", other places are reporting "no, the ATF decided that didn't count"

For NYS, referring to Section 265 of the Penal Code:

--It's not a rifle, because
*Receiver transferred as a receiver, not a rifle
*Brace means it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder
--It's not a firearm, because the barrel is over 16"

The SAFE Act enumerates stuff you can't have on a semiautomatic, detachable magazine-fed rifle or pistol. But here you're in a spot where you don't meet the NYS definition of a rifle, nor the ATF definition of a pistol, and you're not afoul of the NFA.

Unfortunately, the term "pistol" is not defined in the law. My non-scholarly inclination is that that is a fight the state would not want to have, because they've historically tried really hard for there to not be any rulings on the various grey areas of the SAFE Act.

Also warning that this involves trying to glue together "Shit The ATF Says" with NYS law, along with everything that entails. Gluing them together doesn't always work (why should NYS accept the ATF's definition when they haven't made their own?). The ATF routinely decides to change its mind about shit it says, the shit it says is not law, and even if you're walking around with a copy of the shit they told you, I can think of at least one instance where a judge didn't allow that to be entered into evidence. And of course, it also hinges on NYS accepting the ATF's decision that pistol braces are not stocks.

I'm going to wait and see what happens to the dudes that have built these things, although I suspect it's just going to be a long period of "only illegal when we decide it is". Dark Storm is churning out ARs built in the same vein, but caveating them with "not legal for MA, NY, CA, or MD".

[Doug]

Obligatory: I'm not a lawyer, and am also fucking stupid. You would be stupid to listen to me at all.

Apparently, the new hotness here in NY is a non-everything gun: pistol brace, barrel length of 16" or more, OAL w/ brace removed greater than 26", vertical foregrip, built from a 4473-transferred lower. So stuff like this rolling garbagecan/Trijicon advertisement is legal:

56997

The dumpster fire above has a 10/30-round magazine, which is actually of dubious legality.

For the ATF:
--Pistol brace so it's not a rifle
--Vertical foregrip (groan) so it's not a handgun
--26" length with the brace removed so it's not an AOW (some places are reporting "with the brace fully extended", other places are reporting "no, the ATF decided that didn't count"

For NYS, referring to Section 265 of the Penal Code:

--It's not a rifle, because
*Receiver transferred as a receiver, not a rifle
*Brace means it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder
--It's not a firearm, because the barrel is over 16"

The SAFE Act enumerates stuff you can't have on a semiautomatic, detachable magazine-fed rifle or pistol. But here you're in a spot where you don't meet the NYS definition of a rifle, nor the ATF definition of a pistol, and you're not afoul of the NFA.

Unfortunately, the term "pistol" is not defined in the law. My non-scholarly inclination is that that is a fight the state would not want to have, because they've historically tried really hard for there to not be any rulings on the various grey areas of the SAFE Act.

Also warning that this involves trying to glue together "Shit The ATF Says" with NYS law, along with everything that entails. Gluing them together doesn't always work (why should NYS accept the ATF's definition when they haven't made their own?). The ATF routinely decides to change its mind about shit it says, the shit it says is not law, and even if you're walking around with a copy of the shit they told you, I can think of at least one instance where a judge didn't allow that to be entered into evidence. And of course, it also hinges on NYS accepting the ATF's decision that pistol braces are not stocks.

I'm going to wait and see what happens to the dudes that have built these things, although I suspect it's just going to be a long period of "only illegal when we decide it is".

I believe California is trying to “close” this loophole in the current legislative session that stemmed from Franklin Armory. I haven’t been keeping tabs on this but know as soon as it gets too close anti-gun will restrict. FWIW They did that in California with the bullet button.

[Casual Friday]

I've read through this thread a few times but had nothing of value to add. Over the weekend, I spoke to a friend of mine living in CA for the next 3-5 years and asked what he was doing in terms of guns down there. When he moved, he left everything not CA legal at his Dad's place. He told me that for a long gun, he's running a Fightlite SCR lower with a regular 16" AR upper, Aimpoint and a scout light. I've seen pictures of them but have never gave them much thought. His sample of one has worked out very well for him. He has a few thousand rounds through it, including one carbine class. He grew up around traditional hunting rifles so the cross bolt safety was easy to get accustomed to. Even though I don't need it, I kinda want one just to messa round with.

https://fightlite.com/rifles/scr

[Hambo]

Or maybe a good compound bow set. :)

Too slow. You need to be like this guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g

[revolvergeek]

I'm guessing the Mare's Legs suggestions aren't on the compliant list(s)...They aren't semi-automatic so the elements of the AWB shouldn't apply.

Okay wait...I have an idea and it's fucking crazy but hear me out.

I just looked apparently hand guns made prior to 1998 don't have to be on the handgun roster, right?

Inglis Hi-Power - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/870723501

Broomhandle Mauser 'Red 9' - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872178239

Artillery Luger - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872107369

I know it's absurd...but
1) Shoulder stock
2) detachable mags (in the case of the Luger and HP)
3) they are not SBRs according to the NFA (being exempt under C&R eligibility).
4) Legal to carry on your person under a concealed handgun act.
5) Exempt from the MA Roster Requirements.

No law says you have to use the stock Inglis upper and barrel or safety on your gun when shooting it. You could get an upper built, dovetailed rear sight with a MRDS dovetail and use an RMR/DPP, use an updated thumb safety...I bet you can even find pre-ban high-capacity Hi-Power magazines...

Well, playing Devil's Advocate, from handling and shooting my two:

- The Broomhandle is MUCH easier and pretty much foolproof to get out of the stock, get attached and get into action. I can see why they were so popular with the Chinese warlords when a lot of the country was on horseback a lot. The stock practically mounts itself (hand finds hand and CLICK). Ergonomics are 'unique' but not bad, depending on the production variant you can have it on safe hammer down, or cocked and locked. Reloads are slower, but not horrible with practice and good stripper clips. I suppose some places not having a detachable magazine could be a plus. Ammo selection is much more limited.

- The Artillery Luger feels much better when assembled, much more like a 'real' carbine. Ergonomics are much better and reloads are faster because spare mags are plentiful and reloading feels natural. That said, the stock can be a bit of a chore to mount, and they can be very ammo / magazine picky. The rear sight is not ideal but really no worse than on the Broomhandle. I hope to find a naval Luger cheap enough to play with at some point. I think that slightly shorter barrel and more conventional rear sight would be more practical.

Mine were cheap and are restoration projects, and I currently would not consider either of them reliable enough to use as primary defensive weapons. Now, if you were to go buy a really nice one for $2500-4000 from Rock Island Auction and put some new springs in it.... :cool:

[JodyH]

Insert Steyr Scout or Canadian Ranger (Tikka T3x) rifle topped with a LPVO or red dot in .308 here.
You can always find a way to make either one 50 state plus Canada legal.

[revolvergeek]

If magazines were more available an old Savage 99D in .243 or .308 with a 4 round detachable box would be an interesting option also.