Wheelgun Challenge V!

[Bruce Cartwright]

Folks:

This is the fifth installment in this series. I carried a full size revolver for 6 months as my primary defensive handgun. In my case, I used a Ruger Match Champion GP-100 stainless steel revolver in .357 magnum. In this installment I am going to talk about power or more particularly stopping power with regard to full size service revolvers. Caveat: I am not a ballistician, hard scientist etc. These are my views and opinions. Take them with a grain of salt.

Of late, there is a renewed interest in revolver shooting, at least among cops and folks of my age range. Maybe it is because these folks want to revisit their youth or some other sentimental reason. Whatever the cause, there is a renewed interest in “round” guns. One of the things that gets kicked around is the relative power of defensive rounds carried by these folks in their revolvers. The FBI recently experienced a caliber change and I think it is illustrative in terms of revolver shooters.

Within the last 5 years, the FBI has adopted the 9 mm Parabellum round as its new duty round. The theory that the folks at the FBI Ballistic Research Facility put forth in supporting the adoption of the 9mm is that bullet technology has advanced across the board significantly and even more so with new 9mm loads. I tend to agree the current versions of the 9 are way better than those of twenty or even ten years ago. I routinely carry a 9mm pistol without reservation. That said, is the 9 the equal of the 40 and 45? I don’t know. When I was a New Agent Trainee at the FBI Academy, I was issued the Sig P226 in 9mm. It was a great gun, but I was under no illusion about the fact that there were better cartridges for law enforcement. As soon as I could, I voted with my feet and bought a Glock 23 in 40 S&W and shortly thereafter, a Glock 21 in 45 ACP. I carried the Glock 21 for upwards of 15 years on the Job. I pointed that gun (as well as shotguns and M4s) at a pile of people and damn near had to shoot several with the 45. I had confidence in the 45. I witnessed the FBI transition from the 9mm to the 40 and now back to the 9mm. Even during the 40 caliber period, there was a significant group of agents who favored the 45. So, my question in all of this is what happened to all of the “weeds” law enforcement collectively plucked from the Lord’s Garden (To paraphrase Pat Rogers) with the 45 and 40? Did the passage of time somehow wipe the effectiveness of those rounds from the slate? I don’t believe so. The 9 may have gotten better, but that doesn’t diminish the effectiveness of the 40 and 45.

So, while the 9 is all the rage today, it wasn’t always so. There may be less of a difference today between the 9, 40, and 45, but I still think there is a difference, albeit a smaller one. The same thing appears to be happening in the revolver world. Newer 38 Special loads are better, but there is still a difference between today’s best 38 loads and 357 magnum loads. Some folks tend to think that the 38 Special in the +P version is the ultimate gunfighting round in revolvers and that you really don’t need anything else. I am not so sure about that. For the period when cops actually carried and fought with revolvers, the 38 Special was almost universally viewed as the minimum you would want to carry among those in my circle of acquaintances. Almost every cop I encountered wanted more powerful rounds. The 357 magnum was the king where I lived. The results were deemed very effective in numerous shootings. Almost no one wanted to carry the 38 Special if they could get a 357 magnum. Cops also wanted to get semiautos because they were being designed to be reliable out of the box.

From my perspective, bigger, more powerful rounds were more effective at stopping bad guys in the past. I believe the heavier rounds still outperform the 38 and 9 but the difference is smaller today. The question that each shooter has to answer is whether the increase in effectiveness of newer 38 Special bullet technology is outweighed by the gains of going to magnum ammo. Each round had its positives and negatives and you learned to work around each. For the 357, it was the large flash, loud report and heavy recoil. For those down sides, you were rewarded with excellent stopping power. The 45 was viewed as being pretty much equal to the 357 and most folks I knew carried one or the other. Even during the revolver only period in the Bureau, if an agent could qualify with 357 magnum ammo and had the necessary approval, he could carry it instead of the 38 Special load. Again, many of the heavy hitters who were serious about agent survival did this. These were the same folks who actually carried a backup gun, practiced on their own time and tended to use long guns to shoot mopes who needed shooting.

The point of all this? When I started carrying my Match Champion daily for the Wheelgun Challenge it was loaded with old school Federal 125 grain jacketed hollow point 357 magnum rounds. I weighed the options and came out in favor of carrying the heavier magnum rounds. There are cemeteries full of bad guys sent on to their reward that were done in by hard cops carrying 357 magnum ammo While people may not want to remember history, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. While the 38 Specials of today are better, if I am limited to six rounds, I want those rounds to be very powerful. The 357 does that pretty decisively.

Update: Of course, there may be a better option: The Speer 135 grain 357 magnum Short Barrel Gold Dot Jacketed Hollow point round. I have shot a small amount of it. The Speer load seems less violent than the older 125 grain loads. I believe that the reason for this is the reduced velocity of about 1,100 feet per second in a four inch long barrel. It also uses a bonded core bullet which aids in its effectiveness. I may start carrying this load once I exhaust my supply of the 125 grain Federal load.

[03RN]

One thing i like about .357 is that there really isnt a bad choice 125gr and up.

I must admit i am not as accurate with 125gr at 1450 as I am with other loadings. 158s @ 1250 are fine. Im not sure why the lighter faster bullets mess me up so much. Because of prices i never really shot much. I got 3-400 rounds from walmart during their purge that i should just shoot up to help desensitize myself.

Back when i was working at an indoor range i got pretty comfortable sitting next to a 762 SCAR.

The .357 golden sabers are my standby that i have a case of but im really liking the 140gr XTPs I loaded up. Over 9grs unique they get about 1200fps from my 2.75" barrel.

Even the old 158jsp would hit pretty hard even if they dont expand much.

Once i get a chronograph i want to test out those 135gr sb gold dots from my 66 and from my m92 with a 20" barrel. If im carrying a magnum i want something that has a little more umph. The 135s are rated at 990. Id be happy with 1200.

[Inspector71]

In the late 80’s, when I joined Customs, you had a choice of carrying either .38 plus P (various manufacturers), or the legendary Federal 357B, 125 grain JHP. If you wanted to carry the magnum load, you had to qualify with it on the 60-round, 25 yard max course. I would guess that less than 10 percent at my Port carried the magnum load. You can guess what I opted for (LOL). In order not to disturb the concentration of the .38 shooters, the FI would place us magnum shooters far down the firing line in our own little group. That magnum load was a flame thrower ! One of my fellow inspectors scorched his uniform shirt on the hip level, bent elbow position. Also, at the 3 yard line, the paper silhouette target would shred to confetti. Night qualification was like attending July 4th. Another buddy of mine gave up carrying magnum loads when he was nearly dragged away by a driver who used his electric window to pin his arm. Pulled his gun and pointed it at the driver who fortunately stopped the vehicle before getting shot through the window. My buddy said that he feared the magnum load would shred the window glass back into his face, so he did not pull the trigger.

[SCCY Marshal]

I'm going to sell organs for a 3" model 65 Ladysmith, leather AIWB with reinforced mouth, boot grips with finger groove ground off, and lay in some midrange magnums by the time this series is finished.

[Zeke38]

I have four 357s. A 2" k6, a 2.5" 19, a 3" K6 DA/SA and a 4.2" Match Champion. I fell in love with 357s in 1968. I have mulled the ammo question with these different revolvers and have come to the conclusion that for self defense purposes against bipeds, the 125 Golden Saber 357 load from Remington does it for me. 1080fps out of my Kimber 2", 1122fps out of my 3" Kimber, and 1148fps out of my Match Champion. The load groups well with all 4 firearms and it is managable as it is a reduced load 125 grain screamer. Factory spec state 1250fps but the load velocities that are published above are out of a conservative Chrono; they are comparable to other data on this load.

This load is also fairly inexpensive.

Wore a 357 to town today and felt well armed.

[03RN]

I'm going to sell organs for a 3" model 65 Ladysmith, leather AIWB with reinforced mouth, boot grips with finger groove ground off, and lay in some midrange magnums by the time this series is finished.

Thats sounds classy

Here's my trashy

56360

[Tennessee Jed]

Great minds think alike. As far as 357 mag ammo goes, I'll admit to being a neanderthal. Full power ammo makes me happy. Once I switched the grip from a Hogue Bantam (which exposes the backstrap) to a Pachmayr Gripper (which covers the backstrap), full power 357 mag ammo became much more comfortable to shoot. I usually have either 145 grain Winchester Silvertips or 158 grain Remington JHPs in this. POA/POI for 125's with these fixed sights is too far off for my comfort.

The Grippers required a little Dremel work for rounding off the bottom edges to reduce printing, and they look a little sloppy, but I am A-OK with that.

56378

[SCCY Marshal]

My evening is oficially going to get derailed. I've got a bug in my brain that needs addressed.

Will be playing with some of the 130 grain HST projectiles I ordered from Midway during their blemish sale. Stuff them in 38 Special cases to the cannelure and work up a Skeeter Skelton midrange magnum load for my model 67. He listed 7.0 grains Unique under a 150 grain cast in a Special case. He also mentioned a 150 grain half-jacketed swaged bullet over 7.5 grains Unique. Lyman lists a starting load of 7.0 grains under a 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint in a magnum case.

So I'll put together 12 each 5.5gr, 6.0gr, 6.5gr, and 7.0gr. Chrono each from low to high and abort if any concerning pressure signs or anything feels plain too much. Then group six of each to see if any pattern better than others in my inept hands.

Federal's factory 130gr HST load averages 854fps out of a 4" tube on Lucky Gunner's site. I wonder if I can get it up somewhere in the 1,000-1,150fps range. Then dump it into water jugs covered with four layers of Carhartt to check maximum upset and roughly estimate penetration. Be neat to run a .38 Outdoorsman-ish load in my multi-day backcountry camping revolver. Should be fine as something to work up, shoot a cylinder every so often to keep a feel for it, and generally practice with some conventionally loaded .38 hitting close to POI. If it loads that hot without undue pressure signs and if the bullet holds together, it should make a dandy ersatz Heavy Duty. With the large Pachmayr ploughhandle grips on the gun, controllability would be fine.

Having some pep for tucking under my leg while driving to and from trailheads in case something needs popped through the windshield would be a bonus. The hot stuff in the gun with six more in a cartridge slide and handful of conventional .38 in speed strips in case I need to pot small game would cover a lot of bases.

[Tennessee Jed]

That would make me really nervous. I like Skeeter's writing and all, but I'd be cautious about viewing him, or Elmer for that matter, as role models for handloading. Alliant's max on their website for Unique for 135 grain Speer Gold Dots in 38 Special +p is a little lower than your starting point.

For that role, something more in the 38-44 range, I'd probably just buy a box of Buffalo Bore's 38 Special +P 158 grain LSWCHP's. They are supposed to get around 1,162 fps from a 4 inch barrel.

[03RN]

Not sure those hsts will hold together at that speed.

I do load 130gr jsp in .38 over 6 gr unique. Milder to shoot than 5.2gr under 158gr hard cast bullet.

If i was looking for a .38 trail load that would be it (158gr swc over 5.2gr unique.)

[SCCY Marshal]

I have a hunch they'll hold together but fold back more and sooner, increasing penetration. Also predict they'll possibly lose a little weight if some lead sloughs off in the process. Beside being a fun project, I think a 130 grain bullet at 158 grain velocity should be easier on the frame, especially being a K versus Skelton's N. And the jacket should help it hold together to help make up for the lost weight.

But mostly, they'll look neat and life's too short not to get freaky with modernized reverse hollow-base wadcutters.

[03RN]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29816-38-Special-HST-130gr-P-in-Organic-Gel/page5

Thats an interesting point. Maybe going faster will help

[BillSWPA]

I believe this video was posted in another thread here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YTOV4dYLQE

[Dave T]

My department issued Rem 125g SJHP for their 357 Mag carrying Deputies. We had a number of revolver shootings while I was the firearms instructor and when I could I went along with Homicide, who handled the investigations, to see what happened and figure out if there was something we could learn from the events.

First one I remember was a weapon's qualified Corrections Officer, assigned to prisoner transport (court, doctors, etc). An intruder broke into his home and when he heard the commotion, jumped up with a 4" M-66 in hand and went to the bedroom door. He told me later, when he saw the bad guy in the hallway he slammed the door thinking it would better protect his wife. As he was telling her to call 911 the door crashed against him. As he was going down he got off one shot through the hollow core door and into said bad guy. He said he couldn't get his arm out from under him and the door before our bad guy ran out of the house, only to lie down under the neighbor's bushes where responding officers found him. This was 35 years ago and I frankly don't remember if the guy died of his single wound or not.

Second was kind of like the first in that only one shot was fired. A deputy in a rural area made a traffic stop on a felon who had violated his parole numerous times. This bad guy knew he was going to jail so he followed the deputy as he turned to go run the name. He jumped the deputy and as they rolled around on the dirt/gravel road he got the deputy's 5-cell Kel-lite away from him and started beating him on the head and shoulders. The deputy told me later he knew he was going unconscious so he reached under his arm-pit and fired one round into some portion of the assailant's torso. When I asked him why he only fired one shot he said he said there wasn't anyone there to shoot at after the first round, and then he passed out. Responding officers found him unconscious in the road and the bad guy dead.

The final 357 Mag shooting during my tenure as firearms instructor involved a detective carrying a 2.5" M-66. He and a uniform deputy were watching the back of a motel while other detectives, backed by SWAT, served a warrant on an armed felon. Our two heroes didn't really think they were going to get involved as the only windows on the back of the building were small bathroom windows. Sure enough the intrepid felon managed to crawl out of his bathroom window and drop to the alley behind the building. when confronted by the two deputies he pulled out a 4" 38 Special and pointed it at them. As might be expected they opened fire. The uniform guy missed from about 10 yards and hit the back end of a Porsche 911. Yes the county did pay for that one. The detective, made of sterner stuff and a bit closer put two rounds of 357 Mag in the suspects torso. Said suspect turned ran about 10 yards, put his revolver to his head and took his own life. WE speculated the none center of mass hits combined with the reduced performance of the Rem 125 SJHP out of the 2.5" barrel resulted in the failure to stop.

FYI,
Dave

[BillSWPA]

My department issued Rem 125g SJHP for their 357 Mag carrying Deputies. We had a number of revolver shootings while I was the firearms instructor and when I could I went along with Homicide, who handled the investigations, to see what happened and figure out if there was something we could learn from the events.

First one I remember was a weapon's qualified Corrections Officer, assigned to prisoner transport (court, doctors, etc). An intruder broke into his home and when he heard the commotion, jumped up with a 4" M-66 in hand and went to the bedroom door. He told me later, when he saw the bad guy in the hallway he slammed the door thinking it would better protect his wife. As he was telling her to call 911 the door crashed against him. As he was going down he got off one shot through the hollow core door and into said bad guy. He said he couldn't get his arm out from under him and the door before our bad guy ran out of the house, only to lie down under the neighbor's bushes where responding officers found him. This was 35 years ago and I frankly don't remember if the guy died of his single wound or not.

Second was kind of like the first in that only one shot was fired. A deputy in a rural area made a traffic stop on a felon who had violated his parole numerous times. This bad guy knew he was going to jail so he followed the deputy as he turned to go run the name. He jumped the deputy and as they rolled around on the dirt/gravel road he got the deputy's 5-cell Kel-lite away from him and started beating him on the head and shoulders. The deputy told me later he knew he was going unconscious so he reached under his arm-pit and fired one round into some portion of the assailant's torso. When I asked him why he only fired one shot he said he said there wasn't anyone there to shoot at after the first round, and then he passed out. Responding officers found him unconscious in the road and the bad guy dead.

The final 357 Mag shooting during my tenure as firearms instructor involved a detective carrying a 2.5" M-66. He and a uniform deputy were watching the back of a motel while other detectives, backed by SWAT, served a warrant on an armed felon. Our two heroes didn't really think they were going to get involved as the only windows on the back of the building were small bathroom windows. Sure enough the intrepid felon managed to crawl out of his bathroom window and drop to the alley behind the building. when confronted by the two deputies he pulled out a 4" 38 Special and pointed it at them. As might be expected they opened fire. The uniform guy missed from about 10 yards and hit the back end of a Porsche 911. Yes the county did pay for that one. The detective, made of sterner stuff and a bit closer put two rounds of 357 Mag in the suspects torso. Said suspect turned ran about 10 yards, put his revolver to his head and took his own life. WE speculated the none center of mass hits combined with the reduced performance of the Rem 125 SJHP out of the 2.5" barrel resulted in the failure to stop.

FYI,
Dave

Given the video I posted and the shootings described here, I wonder about the barrel length at which the .357 has a distinct advantage over a 9mm? Clearly a 4" barrel would provide an advantage, and a 2" barrel will not. 2.5" is suspected of not providing that advantage. Do things start improving at 3" or is more required?

[Dave T]

Bill,

I know that we chronographed our issue ammo every year and the Rem 125g SJHP always produced ~1425 fps from the 4" M66s. This is a fuzzy memory but I think it developed something like 1250 fps or maybe 1275 fps from the 2.5" M-66s. I always thought 1400 fps was the threshold for real "Magnum" performance. YMMV!

Dave

[SCCY Marshal]

...The final 357 Mag shooting during my tenure as firearms instructor involved a detective carrying a 2.5" M-66. He and a uniform deputy were watching the back of a motel while other detectives, backed by SWAT, served a warrant on an armed felon...

Do you remember if there was a reason at least one of them didn't (couldn't?) draw a long gun?

[vtfarmer]

Bill,

I know that we chronographed our issue ammo every year and the Rem 125g SJHP always produced ~1425 fps from the 4" M66s. This is a fuzzy memory but I think it developed something like 1250 fps or maybe 1275 fps from the 2.5" M-66s. I always thought 1400 fps was the threshold for real "Magnum" performance. YMMV!

Dave

I've used that as my carry load since the late 80's. Occasionally I run some over the Chrony. Current running averages are: 2 1/4" Sp101= 1275 fps: 3" GP=1365 fps; 4' GPs= 1442 fps.

On the performance end, late in the Marshall Study he was saying that he didn't see any difference in results between barrel lengths, so he lumped them all in together. Mas Ayoob was running his own study at the same time, and if my memory is working right, he said something similar. If he sees this, maybe he'll comment.

[BillSWPA]

Suggestions for future articles by Bruce (or any other revolver experts) should they be so inclined to write:

More in-depth discussion of sights and sight improvements, since these options are often limited for revolvers.

Holster selection and other concealment pointers. Finding good holsters for revolvers seems to be increasingly difficult, particularly since an increasing percentage of Kydex holster makers do not believe (probably correctly) that extensive revolver offerings would be profitable. Do you find yourself dressing around the gun more so than if you carried a semiauto?

The finer points of managing a DA trigger squeeze, including but not limited to the merit or lack thereof of cocking the hammer for more precise shots, as well as helping those with weak hands and/or medical conditions of the hand in squeezing a DA trigger.

[Dave T]

Do you remember if there was a reason at least one of them didn't (couldn't?) draw a long gun?

Back in those far off days the department only had five 870s at the main office. Gun savvy deputies, and those Vietnam vets who had been shot at, always grabbed them for their shifts so there weren't any long guns to draw from. At that time only SWAT had rifles.

Two things I did as firearms instructor was develop and run shotgun and rifle qualifications. For the first time in the departments history deputies could qualify to carry personal long guns, with the departments blessing and backing. I did the same thing with off duty weapons, another departmental first.

Good grief, that was a long time ago! (LOL) And Bruce, my apologies for the thread drift.

Dave

[Bruce Cartwright]

My department issued Rem 125g SJHP for their 357 Mag carrying Deputies. We had a number of revolver shootings while I was the firearms instructor and when I could I went along with Homicide, who handled the investigations, to see what happened and figure out if there was something we could learn from the events.

First one I remember was a weapon's qualified Corrections Officer, assigned to prisoner transport (court, doctors, etc). An intruder broke into his home and when he heard the commotion, jumped up with a 4" M-66 in hand and went to the bedroom door. He told me later, when he saw the bad guy in the hallway he slammed the door thinking it would better protect his wife. As he was telling her to call 911 the door crashed against him. As he was going down he got off one shot through the hollow core door and into said bad guy. He said he couldn't get his arm out from under him and the door before our bad guy ran out of the house, only to lie down under the neighbor's bushes where responding officers found him. This was 35 years ago and I frankly don't remember if the guy died of his single wound or not.

Second was kind of like the first in that only one shot was fired. A deputy in a rural area made a traffic stop on a felon who had violated his parole numerous times. This bad guy knew he was going to jail so he followed the deputy as he turned to go run the name. He jumped the deputy and as they rolled around on the dirt/gravel road he got the deputy's 5-cell Kel-lite away from him and started beating him on the head and shoulders. The deputy told me later he knew he was going unconscious so he reached under his arm-pit and fired one round into some portion of the assailant's torso. When I asked him why he only fired one shot he said he said there wasn't anyone there to shoot at after the first round, and then he passed out. Responding officers found him unconscious in the road and the bad guy dead.

The final 357 Mag shooting during my tenure as firearms instructor involved a detective carrying a 2.5" M-66. He and a uniform deputy were watching the back of a motel while other detectives, backed by SWAT, served a warrant on an armed felon. Our two heroes didn't really think they were going to get involved as the only windows on the back of the building were small bathroom windows. Sure enough the intrepid felon managed to crawl out of his bathroom window and drop to the alley behind the building. when confronted by the two deputies he pulled out a 4" 38 Special and pointed it at them. As might be expected they opened fire. The uniform guy missed from about 10 yards and hit the back end of a Porsche 911. Yes the county did pay for that one. The detective, made of sterner stuff and a bit closer put two rounds of 357 Mag in the suspects torso. Said suspect turned ran about 10 yards, put his revolver to his head and took his own life. WE speculated the none center of mass hits combined with the reduced performance of the Rem 125 SJHP out of the 2.5" barrel resulted in the failure to stop.

FYI,
Dave

Dave T:

Thanks for providing the detailed accounts of the officer involved shootings with the 125 grain magnum load. Information like this is worth preserving. The last shooting you described reinforces the age old lesson that good hits are what stop fights. Please note, I mean no disrespect to the involved officers. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, bad outcomes occur and as Pat Rogers once said: "The Bad Guy gets a vote."

Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Back in those far off days the department only had five 870s at the main office. Gun savvy deputies, and those Vietnam vets who had been shot at, always grabbed them for their shifts so there weren't any long guns to draw from. At that time only SWAT had rifles.

Two things I did as firearms instructor was develop and run shotgun and rifle qualifications. For the first time in the departments history deputies could qualify to carry personal long guns, with the departments blessing and backing. I did the same thing with off duty weapons, another departmental first.

Good grief, that was a long time ago! (LOL) And Bruce, my apologies for the thread drift.

Dave

Dave:

No apologies necessary. Good on you for getting your troops the gear they needed to fight and prevail. Thank you for having the fore thought and tenacity to properly equip your troops.

Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Suggestions for future articles by Bruce (or any other revolver experts) should they be so inclined to write:

More in-depth discussion of sights and sight improvements, since these options are often limited for revolvers.

Holster selection and other concealment pointers. Finding good holsters for revolvers seems to be increasingly difficult, particularly since an increasing percentage of Kydex holster makers do not believe (probably correctly) that extensive revolver offerings would be profitable. Do you find yourself dressing around the gun more so than if you carried a semiauto?

The finer points of managing a DA trigger squeeze, including but not limited to the merit or lack thereof of cocking the hammer for more precise shots, as well as helping those with weak hands and/or medical conditions of the hand in squeezing a DA trigger.

BillSWPA:

Thanks for the ideas. I will take a look at them and see if I can shake something out that covers the need.

As to concealing wheelguns, I pretty much have gone the custom route. My favored kydex maker, Slate Creek Tactical, has done several holsters for me on a custom basis. In leather, Milt Sparks Holsters is my go to shop. I don't think I dress around the gun differently. Let me think on that a bit. This is a great idea for a post/article.

I may do a post on the revolver draw stroke and how it differs from semiautos. We'll see if it pans out.

As to double action work, I pretty much run DA all the way out to 50 yards. I sometimes go single action beyond that, like when I am shooting at extreme ranges. My short answer to enhancing DA accuracy is to shoot lots of bullseye courses DA only. Again, this is a neat topic for an article. Let me kick this around a bit.

Bruce

[Totem Polar]

I have four 357s. A 2" k6, a 2.5" 19, a 3" K6 DA/SA and a 4.2" Match Champion. I fell in love with 357s in 1968. I have mulled the ammo question with these different revolvers and have come to the conclusion that for self defense purposes against bipeds, the 125 Golden Saber 357 load from Remington does it for me. 1080fps out of my Kimber 2", 1122fps out of my 3" Kimber, and 1148fps out of my Match Champion. The load groups well with all 4 firearms and it is managable as it is a reduced load 125 grain screamer. Factory spec state 1250fps but the load velocities that are published above are out of a conservative Chrono; they are comparable to other data on this load.

This load is also fairly inexpensive.

Wore a 357 to town today and felt well armed.

I’m really an old-school 145 grain silvertip guy, but I have to admit that the medium velocity 125 GS is a fantastic fit for smaller .357s. I built up a stash of golden saber over the last couple of years precisely because it was controllable, and grouped incredibly well right at POA out of both a 3” K6S and a new model King Cobra. Urban or Rural: I wouldn’t feel completely outclassed with a 3” .357.

Dave T, putting a hole in a Porsche 911 is a sin.

[Dave T]

The finer points of managing a DA trigger squeeze, including but not limited to the merit or lack thereof of cocking the hammer for more precise shots, as well as helping those with weak hands and/or medical conditions of the hand in squeezing a DA trigger.

I went through the academy with a M 28-2 and carried it and a M-58 until I got off probation. That same month I qualified with a 1911 in 45 ACP and never looked back as long as I wore a badge. Still, being a gun guy and liking competition I started 2-1/2 years (3 seasons) of NRA PPC competition. First with a old K-38, then after the first go-round with a Bull-gun built by a famous pistol smith from Louisiana who's name I can't think of right now. (getting old stinks)

Anyway to answer Bill, like Bruce's idea of shooting Bullseye DA only, shooting the old PPC course from 7 yards back to 50 yards: standing; right & left barricade; kneeling; setting; and prone will make a revolver shooter out of you. When I started with the K-38 I shot single action at 50. But when my relay wasn't shooting I watched the guys on the Governor's 20 and they all shot DA, all the time. And there wasn't any "staging" of the trigger trying to turn a DA stroke into a SA let off. Those guys all pulled straight through, even at 50 yards. The 10/X ring was roughly the size of a Coke can and they didn't miss all that much. Try getting 24 consecutive hits on a Coke can DA at 50 yards. If you can do that you can shoot on my team any time.

As as someone said earlier (or maybe on another revolver thread) the skill with a DA revolver doesn't erode as fast or as completely as pistol skill does. Years after my PPC days I started shooting once a month in a steel combat match with revolvers (a M24-3 and a M25-2, both with 5" barrels). After another hiatus IDPA came along and I shot in their revolver class for a couple years, and even a few IROC matches 10 or 12 years ago. It never took all that long to get my DA trigger control back to reasonable levels even after a year or three away from wheel guns. That's always been my experience.

Dave

[Bruce Cartwright]

I went through the academy with a M 28-2 and carried it and a M-58 until I got off probation. That same month I qualified with a 1911 in 45 ACP and never looked back as long as I wore a badge. Still, being a gun guy and liking competition I started 2-1/2 years (3 seasons) of NRA PPC competition. First with a old K-38, then after the first go-round with a Bull-gun built by a famous pistol smith from Louisiana who's name I can't think of right now. (getting old stinks)

Anyway to answer Bill, like Bruce's idea of shooting Bullseye DA only, shooting the old PPC course from 7 yards back to 50 yards: standing; right & left barricade; kneeling; setting; and prone will make a revolver shooter out of you. When I started with the K-38 I shot single action at 50. But when my relay wasn't shooting I watched the guys on the Governor's 20 and they all shot DA, all the time. And there wasn't any "staging" of the trigger trying to turn a DA stroke into a SA let off. Those guys all pulled straight through, even at 50 yards. The 10/X ring was roughly the size of a Coke can and they didn't miss all that much. Try getting 24 consecutive hits on a Coke can DA at 50 yards. If you can do that you can shoot on my team any time.

As as someone said earlier (or maybe on another revolver thread) the skill with a DA revolver doesn't erode as fast or as completely as pistol skill does. Years after my PPC days I started shooting once a month in a steel combat match with revolvers (a M24-3 and a M25-2, both with 5" barrels). After another hiatus IDPA came along and I shot in their revolver class for a couple years, and even a few IROC matches 10 or 12 years ago. It never took all that long to get my DA trigger control back to reasonable levels even after a year or three away from wheel guns. That's always been my experience.

Dave

Dave:

Good point about shooting at 50 yards. Shooting at that distance tends to separate the adults from the children so to speak.

Being a big fan of the S&W Model 25-2, you have piqued my interest: A 25-2 with a five inch barrel? I would love to see a photo if possible. Any details about the gun (and for that matter the 24-3)? Thanks in advance.

Bruce

[Dave T]

Bruce,

Back in the mid-1990s I came across used, 6" versions of both of these models within a couple days of each other. So close I had to put the second one (I think it was the 44 Special) on layaway. I have a good friend who retired from 26 years of Federal service (BP & INS) to become a pistol smith, and a very good one at that. I sent him the first revolver with instructions to cut the barrel to 5" and do a complete action job. While waiting for that one to finish I ordered a 1AT holster from Milt Sparks Leather and kept making payments on the other revolver.

The first gun was done about the same time as the holster and as I type this I'm pretty sure it was the 45 ACP. I had a tripple, open top speed loader pouch left over from the PPC days. It had been a loose fit for my K-frame Dades but it held Moonclipped 45 ACPs perfectly. I started shooting in a monthly local steel combat match and having a dandy time. As a side note, I found cast bullets of .454" diameter, loaded in the thinner R-P cases, shot extremely well in that 25-2.

When it was paid off I sent the 24-3 off to my smith asking he do the same things to it he'd done with the M25-2. When finished they were nearly identical except for the tapered barrel on the 44 Special. I initially tried the "Skeeter Load" but the recoil was a bit fierce for just competition. I dropped from a 250 @ 900 to a 240 @ 800 and found it more controlable.

A couple times I paid a double entrance fee and shot the stages twice, once with the M25 and again later with the M24. Even with Safariland Comp IIs there was no way to keep up with the reloads of the 45 ACP Moonclips. I always beat myself with the M25-2.

As my disability worsened I had to give up competing every weekend and the revolver shooting went away. I was still carrying 1911s at the time and felt the now limited competition I could manage needed to be with my carry guns (Commander and Lt Wt Officer's ACP). I've never managed having safe-queens so eventually those two 5" revolvers went away. Sometimes I regret it but I can't compete at all now so I wouldn't be shooting them anyway. Life stumbles onward through the fog.

Dave

[SCCY Marshal]

...Will be playing with some of the 130 grain HST projectiles I ordered from Midway during their blemish sale. Stuff them in 38 Special cases to the cannelure...

This project crashed on the runway. The bullets are very snug once they hit the step-down in the chamber. To seat the cartridge, I have to shove it the final bit into place. Shame given how cool they look. At least I plunk tested my die set-up dummies before loading any live.

[Bruce Cartwright]

This project crashed on the runway. The bullets are very snug once they hit the step-down in the chamber. To seat the cartridge, I have to shove it the final bit into place. Shame given how cool they look. At least I plunk tested my die set-up dummies before loading any live.

SCCY Marshal:

You may have better luck loading the 130 grain HST if you use wadcutter brass. The wadcutter brass has a thinner case wall to accommodate the long, cylindrical wadcutter bullet. I do a fair bit of reloading and have segregated all of my 38 Special wadcutter brass because it is easier to reload. Hopefully that's an easy fix for your issue. That said, I don't reload ammunition for defensive purposes, just practice ammo.

Bruce

[03RN]

SCCY Marshal:

You may have better luck loading the 130 grain HST if you use wadcutter brass. The wadcutter brass has a thinner case wall to accommodate the long, cylindrical wadcutter bullet. I do a fair bit of reloading and have segregated all of my 38 Special wadcutter brass because it is easier to reload. Hopefully that's an easy fix for your issue. That said, I don't reload ammunition for defensive purposes, just practice ammo.

Bruce

I think he meant the bullet ogive was to...big?

[SCCY Marshal]

...the bullet ogive was to big?

Yes. I'll just have to settle for conventional flush-seated cartridges in .38 brass like normal wadcutters. And cook up a hot wadcutter load with them in magnum brass for fun.

[JRV]

I may do a post on the revolver draw stroke and how it differs from semiautos. We'll see if it pans out.

Bruce

Please do. Between the lack of a beavertail and the middle finger placement partially behind the trigger guard, it would be neat to hear about the technique(s) you’ve used, how preference has changed over time, and any observations you might have gleaned from other shooters.