1911 use by LE agencies...

[TGS]

All,

Does anyone know of any law enforcement agencies that used the 1911 during the heyday of the revolver? Let's say, 1980 as a cut-off date.

Just to head off annoying tangents:

1) I'm not looking for contemporary use by law enforcement.

2) I'm not looking for your opinion on the efficacy of 1911 vs revolver for LE use.

3) I'm not looking for one-off use by a "Tackleberry"....I'm more wondering about systemic, widespread use.

[RevolverRob]

Probably on the edge of what you're looking for.

Dallas PD did not have any standard issue weapons for most of its history. A number of officers (uniformed and plainclothes) carried 1911s. I have no idea when they adopted standard issue equipment, but I don't think it was until the 1980s.

Similarly the Texas Highway (Motor) Patrol - that when combined with the Texas Rangers has evolved into Texas DPS - did not have an issue sidearm for many years. Many patrolmen opted for the 1911. At some point in the 1960-70s (I think) is when the Model 19 became standard issue for Highway Patrol.

Texas Rangers have never had an issue weapon and have a very long history of using the 1911 as a sidearm. Sufficiently so, that the 1911 is by far the most common weapon seen in the Texas Ranger (and really defacto Texas DPS) Museum.

I have no idea what the training regimes were like in those days, but the weapons were sufficiently widespread in being carried that I would consider them 'systemic'.

[TC215]

Texas Rangers come to mind immediately.

Edit-- RevolverRob beat me.

[Trooper224]

All,

Does anyone know of any law enforcement agencies that used the 1911 during the heyday of the revolver? Let's say, 1980 as a cut-off date.

Just to head off annoying tangents:

1) I'm not looking for contemporary use by law enforcement.

2) I'm not looking for your opinion on the efficacy of 1911 vs revolver for LE use.

3) I'm not looking for one-off use by a "Tackleberry"....I'm more wondering about systemic, widespread use.

The Colorado Springs PD used the 1911 as standard issue for some time. I don't know if they still do. Off hand, I can't think of any other large to midsize departments that issued it as standard, other than the Texas Rangers and I don't know if that case was issue or personal preference.

[Tokarev]

By used are you wanting to know department owned or authorized for carry?

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[farscott]

I thought (remembered) LAPD SWAT used/adopted 1911-pattern pistols not long after the formation in the late 1960s. Or is my memory faulty?

[TGS]

By used are you wanting to know department owned or authorized for carry?

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

POW or issued are both fine...the key being widespread as several guys noted with the Texas Rangers.

[SecondsCount]

The Weber County, UT Sheriff department issues Glocks but will allow a 1911 if the officer provides and qualifies with it. I know a female deputy who qualified 100%, and carries a Colt Rail Gun :cool:

[Hambo]

Let's say, 1980 as a cut-off date.

I think mostly what you're going to find from that era is allowed POW, either individually (Bill Allard) or across the board (TX Rangers). LAPD SWAT had them, but just took them out of the property room.

[Tokarev]

Gallatin County, MT allowed 1911s and the guns were popular among deputies in the mid- to late-1980s. Probably earlier since the department had a number of "old timers" who carried 45s back then.

1911s are still issued and/or authorized for personal purchase as of probably 2015 or so. I don't know if that's still the case.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[Wise_A]

I know .38 Super 1911s were popular with the Mexican federales, what was the deal there?

[ranger]

I know .38 Super 1911s were popular with the Mexican federales, what was the deal there?

Not allowed to use military calibers therefore no 45 or 9mm - 38 Super was "ok".

[Gumby]

Stanton, California PD before being absorbed into the OCSD.

[Wendell]

Once again, I'm going to remind everyone that a trip to Waco (https://www.texasranger.org/) should be in your future.

https://www.texasranger.org/

You won't regret it.

[Trooper224]

Once again, I'm going to remind everyone that a trip to Waco (https://www.texasranger.org/) should be in your future.

https://www.texasranger.org/

You won't regret it.

A stop in Waco while passing through is more than worthwhile. A dedicated trip to that shitehole just for the museum isn't.

[Poconnor]

My department issued Colt 1911 government models from 1990 to 2018. From 1980 to 1990 they issued S&W 9mm 6906s. They went to HK VP9s because the new hires wanted firepower. Kids. (Shakes head) also the new armorers said the 1911s were too hard to work on.

[LtDave]

LAPD SWAT
El Monte PD
Vernon PD
Culver City PD
San Fernando PD
Beverly Hills PD (don't think they were issued)
South Gate PD
Downey PD (not positive)
Montebello PD

[FrankB]

If you go to the 7:00 minute mark, an officer empties his 1911 into a kidnapper. This occurred on April 16, 2020.
https://youtu.be/R-Yfj24jpWU

[HCM]

POW or issued are both fine...the key being widespread as several guys noted with the Texas Rangers.

Pima County Sheriffs Office In AZ issued 1911s for many years.

Long Beach CA PD issues railed SA 1911 operators and have done so for at least 15 years or more.

[HCM]

I know .38 Super 1911s were popular with the Mexican federales, what was the deal there?


Not allowed to use military calibers therefore no 45 or 9mm - 38 Super was "ok".

.38 supers were popular with state and local cops in Mexico for those reasons, however, the Federales are/were allowed military calibers. .40, 10mm and .357 SIG have replaced the .38 super in that niche.

[MistWolf]

If you go to the 7:00 minute mark, an officer empties his 1911 into a kidnapper. This occurred on April 16, 2020.
https://youtu.be/R-Yfj24jpWU

The year 2020 is long past the heyday of the revolver

[03RN]

If you go to the 7:00 minute mark, an officer empties his 1911 into a kidnapper. This occurred on April 16, 2020.
https://youtu.be/R-Yfj24jpWU

Do we know if those were what hit the kidnapper? Pretty impressive through glass.

[FrankB]

Do we know if those were what hit the kidnapper? Pretty impressive through glass.

I don’t know, but you hear “Watch the Crossfire!” clearly... 😳😳😳
Edit: I couldn’t find much info, except that the officer carrying the 1911 was the only Richmond PD officer on scene at that moment.

[ECVMatt]

These are few near me: Hermosa Beach was and still is a big 1911 department, Hawthorne had a lot of 1911 users (looks like they are transitioning to Gen 5 Glocks), Manhattan Beach was about 50/50 during the revolver age and Long Beach PD (Home of the LB Operator).

[SW CQB 45]

going off of memory, but I recall

Tacoma WA PD issued 1911.

[1Rangemaster]

All,

Does anyone know of any law enforcement agencies that used the 1911 during the heyday of the revolver? Let's say, 1980 as a cut-off date.

Just to head off annoying tangents:

1) I'm not looking for contemporary use by law enforcement.

2) I'm not looking for your opinion on the efficacy of 1911 vs revolver for LE use.

3) I'm not looking for one-off use by a "Tackleberry"....I'm more wondering about systemic, widespread use.

Would like to know the reason behind the question...(?)
I wouldn’t call them “Tackleberrys”, but men like Bill Allard, Jim Cirillo’s partner in the NYPD Stakeout Squad in the 1960s ran a 1911 with good effect. Reports of Chicago PD detectives having 1911s.
Mas Ayoob ran a 1911 in some small NH PDs around that time.
You have the US MPs, Navy Shore Patrol, etc., utilizing 1911s.
Dilemma is many agencies didn’t “issue” sidearms, but allowed many brands. I rocked a Colt LW Commander in the 1980s off duty, for example. If you expand your cutoff to 1990, you get Tacoma, Denver...
I cannot readily come up with any department that “issued” the 1911.
Others have mentioned Texas Rangers, California agencies,etc. I am relatively confident one or more US “alphabet” agencies probably handed out a 1911 or two overseas(along with S&W revolvers).

[TGS]

Would like to know the reason behind the question...(?)

Just chattin' with a buddy about the use of 1911s when revolvers were the defacto standard for LE.

The "tackleberry" comment is just that I'm not interested in one-off use by a gun guy, but (for the 3rd time now) widespread use among an agency.

[FNFAN]

The Colorado Springs PD used the 1911 as standard issue for some time. I don't know if they still do. Off hand, I can't think of any other large to midsize departments that issued it as standard, other than the Texas Rangers and I don't know if that case was issue or personal preference.

Springs is now a S&W M&P shop.

[Totem Polar]

I haven’t been able to verify how far back the Spokane Sheriff’s Department affair with the 1911 duty pistol goes. I know that deputies were carrying the 1911 back in the 90s, but that’s well after the transition to semiautos had begun sweeping the nation.

I did stumble across this, just FYI:

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=268453

[MistWolf]

During the 60s, the majority of cops in California carried S&W K frames. The CHP carried N frame 357s. Every now and then, you'd see a Colt double action revolver. It was rare to see a 1911.

It was the same during the 70s, but S&W autos started gaining popularity. S&W autos started displacing even more revolvers in the 80s and autos gained even more popularity with the introduction the Beretta. Sig stated making inroads with the introduction of their DA/SA autos and Glock ended the revolver era with the 17.

1911s were rarely seen in the holsters of beat cops and detectives. In the 90s, much was made of 1911s being adopted by elite units such as SWAT and HRT.

The 1911 is my favorite handgun, so I'd always check to see what cops were carrying in their holsters, hoping to see Old Slabsides, cocked & locked. More often than not, I was disappointed. Catching sight of a cop carrying a 1911 was a rare sight.

[MrInox]

.38 supers were popular with state and local cops in Mexico for those reasons, however, the Federales are/were allowed military calibers. .40, 10mm and .357 SIG have replaced the .38 super in that niche.




From what I can gather, 9mm is king across the board among Mexican LE. Never heard of 357sig being used down there....or 10mm....

[HCM]

Until the arrival of the universally hated Art Acevedo the Austin, TX PD issued .40 caliber Glocks and allowed personal 1911s. The Glocks and 1911s were phased out in favor of .40 cal M&Ps.

[HCM]

From what I can gather, 9mm is king across the board among Mexican LE. Never heard of 357sig being used down there....or 10mm....

I’ve seen and worked with many border area Mexican LE with the usual duty type .40s and personal 10mm Colt Delta Elites. 1911s are still a status / officer presence thing there.

There was at least one large Agency in Mexico City which issued P226s in .357.

Of course I’ve seen Mexican Cops with lots of odd stuff like DPMS AR-10s, FALs, AKs, Beretta ARX-160s etc.

M-4s are slowly becoming the standard with Mexican LE even at the state and local level but they are far from universal.

[Navin Johnson]

going off of memory, but I recall

Tacoma WA PD issued 1911.

I think it was optional....popular choice (think small handed females also)...didn't last long.....Kimbers.

Bothell PD allowed for a while. Shooters had problems with Kimbers. It was their fault according to Kimber. Went to Springfields. Still troublesome but better. Now M&P 9's issued (with TS I believe).

[jnc36rcpd]

Given time, I could probably find the article on Tacoma. If I recall, the agency issued an officer choice of various Glock and Kimber 1911 pistols. I don't recall when the 1911's were authorized or issued. While much was made of issue 1911's, the majority of officers opted for the Glock. More recently, I read (in Glock's annual propaganda magazine) that the agency was all Glock.

[FrankinCA]

El Monte California, Downey , Ventura County Sheriff, LAPD Metro, I think Pomona

Some smaller PDs in So Cal..

[MrInox]

I’ve seen and worked with many border area Mexican LE with the usual duty type .40s and personal 10mm Colt Delta Elites. 1911s are still a status / officer presence thing there.

There was at least one large Agency in Mexico City which issued P226s in .357.

Of course I’ve seen Mexican Cops with lots of odd stuff like DPMS AR-10s, FALs, AKs, Beretta ARX-160s etc.

M-4s are slowly becoming the standard with Mexican LE even at the state and local level but they are far from universal.


Even at the federal level they issue a hodgepodge of stuff.....92fs, M&Ps, CZ P09s...with special units (GOPES, ect) using Px4s and USPs.

Strangely glocks dont seem to be widespread....or at least as widespread as I thought they would...

[Dave T]

Pima County Sheriffs Office In AZ issued 1911s for many years.

Long Beach CA PD issues railed SA 1911 operators and have done so for at least 15 years or more.

Yep I was there for the start of that. In April of 1974 PCSD first authorized carry of semi automatics. The two approved guns/calibers were the1911 Colt and it's variants and the Browning HP. I qualified with my Government Model that month and carried either a GM or Commander the rest of my career with the Dept.

In 1978 They decided to issue handguns for the first time. The department purchased S&W M-66 357 Magnums and Colt MK IV Series 70 45 ACP Government Models. I was tasked with creating a familiarization class for the 1911, teaching loading, clearing, and carry in Condition #1. That was my entry to training and 3 years later led to my assignment in the training center/academy as the chief firearms instructor and range master.

For the 6 years I was in that position the department issued both models of handgun and allowed carry of personal firearms. The POWs had to be either 357 Magnums or 45 ACPs. They issued carry ammunition (Rem 125g SJHP and Fed Match Ball). The reason for issuing Ball was to insure functional reliability. Not every MK IV Series 70 would feed HP ammo and a number of POW 45s were problematic with HPs. The issuance of ammo did away with 9mm until some time after I retired (Sept 1987). The eventually authorized and then issued 9mm Glocks. By then revolvers were gone but 1911s were still authorized. I've moved so I don't know what the current handgun/caliber situation is.

Dave

[HCM]

Yep I was there for the start of that. In April of 1974 PCSD first authorized carry of semi automatics. The two approved guns/calibers were the1911 Colt and it's variants and the Browning HP. I qualified with my Government Model that month and carried either a GM or Commander the rest of my career with the Dept.

In 1978 They decided to issue handguns for the first time. The department purchased S&W M-66 357 Magnums and Colt MK IV Series 70 45 ACP Government Models. I was tasked with creating a familiarization class for the 1911, teaching loading, clearing, and carry in Condition #1. That was my entry to training and 3 years later led to my assignment in the training center/academy as the chief firearms instructor and range master.

For the 6 years I was in that position the department issued both models of handgun and allowed carry of personal firearms. The POWs had to be either 357 Magnums or 45 ACPs. They issued carry ammunition (Rem 125g SJHP and Fed Match Ball). The reason for issuing Ball was to insure functional reliability. Not every MK IV Series 70 would feed HP ammo and a number of POW 45s were problematic with HPs. The issuance of ammo did away with 9mm until some time after I retired (Sept 1987). The eventually authorized and then issued 9mm Glocks. By then revolvers were gone but 1911s were still authorized. I've moved so I don't know what the current handgun/caliber situation is.

Dave

In the mid to late 1990s they had 1911s and .40 cal Glocks. No Idea what they are using currently.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Some trends that I've noticed over the years of policing, firearms training, Colt LE training and working for Aimpoint:

1911 use is very regional and those areas that are heavily represented are Texas (especially Houston and down the Gulf Coast and West Texas); Colorado, Arizona and Southern California. I've noted that, back in the day, there were quite a few Ohio cops with the gun.

The agencies mentioned are a great list and I'd add that in the Dallas area, Richardson PD, Garland PD and Plano PD were huge 1911 departments (like 75% of their agencies at the most popular point). The Hurst PD (between Dallas and Fort Worth) was a 100% issued 1911 agency until last year, having had a couple of old Gunsite disciples running firearms training there. Dallas PD had lots of 1911s in the 70s, but one that malfunctioned in a nasty street shooting and resulted in the death of one officer and critical wounding of another in ~1976 really started showing the system the door.

[TheNewbie]

I’ve seen and worked with many border area Mexican LE with the usual duty type .40s and personal 10mm Colt Delta Elites. 1911s are still a status / officer presence thing there.

There was at least one large Agency in Mexico City which issued P226s in .357.

Of course I’ve seen Mexican Cops with lots of odd stuff like DPMS AR-10s, FALs, AKs, Beretta ARX-160s etc.

M-4s are slowly becoming the standard with Mexican LE even at the state and local level but they are far from universal.



Which group in D.F. had P226s?

Most of what I have seen appears to be PT92s or Taurus revolvers. The Mexico City police force is divided into several different agencies with varying responsibilities, and I have not seen them all.

The Beretta 92 is what I see most in the Federal Police holsters, though I saw one guy with what looked like a Walther. To their credit, the current Federal Police look professional, competent, and like a serious police force.

[JRB]

As a kid growing up in Albuquerque in the 1980s and 1990's, I remember seeing a lot of 1911's in APD holsters. Going anecdotally by memory from various encounters from Boy Scouts, DARE, State Fair, etc. I'd say about 1/2 revolvers, 1/3rd 1911's, 1/6th everything else. I remember my DARE Officer in 5th grade (early 90's) had a 1911, and she was a really nice gal, too.

It was only a few years ago that POW's were banned by APD, and up until that point I remember still seeing a 1911 occasionally.

[TheNewbie]

As a kid growing up in Albuquerque in the 1980s and 1990's, I remember seeing a lot of 1911's in APD holsters. Going anecdotally by memory from various encounters from Boy Scouts, DARE, State Fair, etc. I'd say about 1/2 revolvers, 1/3rd 1911's, 1/6th everything else. I remember my DARE Officer in 5th grade (early 90's) had a 1911, and she was a really nice gal, too.

It was only a few years ago that POW's were banned by APD, and up until that point I remember still seeing a 1911 occasionally.


What does APD issue now?

[TGS]

Which group in D.F. had P226s?

Most of what I have seen appears to be PT92s or Taurus revolvers. The Mexico City police force is divided into several different agencies with varying responsibilities, and I have not seen them all.

The Beretta 92 is what I see most in the Federal Police holsters, though I saw one guy with what looked like a Walther. To their credit, the current Federal Police look professional, competent, and like a serious police force.

When I worked with them last year Fuerza Federales and GOPES all had Glocks....GOPES had some sort of M4gery for their long gun, whereas Fuerza Federales all had Galil ACE's and a token amount of Tavors.

The regular CDMX police attached to us had Glocks, Transito had Beretta 92s (could've been Taurus PT92s, I didn't ask).

[UNM1136]

What does APD issue now?

M&P9s or Glocks in 9mm.

pat

[UNM1136]

As a kid growing up in Albuquerque in the 1980s and 1990's, I remember seeing a lot of 1911's in APD holsters. Going anecdotally by memory from various encounters from Boy Scouts, DARE, State Fair, etc. I'd say about 1/2 revolvers, 1/3rd 1911's, 1/6th everything else. I remember my DARE Officer in 5th grade (early 90's) had a 1911, and she was a really nice gal, too.

It was only a few years ago that POW's were banned by APD, and up until that point I remember still seeing a 1911 occasionally.

1911s were the cool thing, so there were a bunch of them, there were 10mms GTG on the street. Glocks, HKs, Rugers, and (grumble) XDs in all calibers were well represented. Until the DOJ consent decree.

pat

[TheNewbie]

When I worked with them last year Fuerza Federales and GOPES all had Glocks....GOPES had some sort of M4gery for their long gun, whereas Fuerza Federales all had Galil ACE's and a token amount of Tavors.

The regular CDMX police attached to us had Glocks, Transito had Beretta 92s (could've been Taurus PT92s, I didn't ask).


Interesting. The reason I thought PT92 is because it's Mexico and the had the crappy shinny look to them. That was on what is called the SSP.

Most of the holsters I see are crappy nylon things, though the Federal Police had what looked like quality Bianchi nylon holsters.

How did you find the competency level to be?


One cool thing I saw when traveling through a more rural part of Mexico was a Federal Police base/barracks.

[TGS]

Interesting. The reason I thought PT92 is because it's Mexico and the had the crappy shinny look to them. That was on what is called the SSP.

Most of the holsters I see are crappy nylon things, though the Federal Police had what looked like quality Bianchi nylon holsters.

How did you find the competency level to be?


One cool thing I saw when traveling through a more rural part of Mexico was a Federal Police base/barracks.

CDMX had crappy nylon sausage sacks with plastic buckles for retention. Fuerza Federales in tac-gear had some sort of generic nylon thigh rig style that fell out of popularity in the US a couple decades ago, the FFs in a more traditional police patrol uniform all had a regular gunbelt and thumb break duty rig.

They were willing, happy hearted and competent at our protective mission.

[TheNewbie]

CDMX had crappy nylon sausage sacks with plastic buckles for retention. Fuerza Federales in tac-gear had some sort of generic nylon thigh rig style that fell out of popularity in the US a couple decades ago, the FFs in a more traditional police patrol uniform all had a regular gunbelt and thumb break duty rig.

They were willing, happy hearted and competent at our protective mission.

The off duty cop I talked too was SSP I believe. He seemed kind of embarrassed by the view people had of Mexican police. He came across as a competent guy who was well spoken and cared about his job.

The Policia Estatal de Estado de Mexico officer I talked to was less impressive. Very professional looking, well spoken, clean cut, but tried to get me to bribe him. No thanks.


Anyway, sorry to derail your thread. Mexican Law Enforcement has always fascinated me.

[Rex G]

Houston PD and Harris County Sheriff’s Office, in Texas. As of the the early Eighties, when I started paying attention, many of these officers and deputies were toting the 1911, on and off the clock, with many of them having done so for a number of years. I cannot say when either agency started allowing the 1911.

In this region, private ownership of one’s duty handguns, shotguns, and rifles is the norm, and has been, for decades.

Houston PD went to specified DA .40 pistols, for primary duty, in 1997, but existing pistols were grandfathered, if we kept the quals up-to-date. At the end of 2015, the 1911 went back onto the list of approved primary duty pistols, if the officer attended a transition class. As of my retirement, in early 2018, I was qual’ed with both 1911 and Glock duty pistols.

[Radar Love]

Looks like at least on Richmond, CA officer carries one:


https://youtu.be/R-Yfj24jpWU?t=394

[awp_101]

The Hurst PD (between Dallas and Fort Worth) was a 100% issued 1911 agency until last year, having had a couple of old Gunsite disciples running firearms training there.
I had a friendly reason to chat with a couple of Hurst PD officers last year and I asked about the 1911s in their holsters as soon as it was polite to do so. I assumed they were private purchase, I never thought to ask if they were issued.

[TheRoland]

EDIT: Off Topic.

[TGS]

Not to digress the thread, but...

I appreciate your effort and recognition of trying to stick to the topic, but at this point I say have at it. It's pretty obvious that half the people commenting didn't even bother to actually read the first post anyway, so it's basically a free-for-all of all the information I specifically said that I wasnt looking for.

[Radar Love]

half the people commenting didn't even bother to actually read the first post anyway

I'm guilty of that. My apologies. To answer the actual question asked, I found one source that referenced the El Monte, CA police department adopting the 1911 in 1966 (https://books.google.com/books?id=HIE_zF1Rv7MC&lpg=PA542&ots=fYxvbFWi3P&dq=semiautomatic%20police%20handgun%201920s&pg=PA542#v=onepage&q&f=false) and another source discussing why the 1911 wasn't widely adopted (https://books.google.com/books?id=kBNjDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT349&ots=uUcqZ_jopB&dq=1911%20and%20law%20enforcement%201980s&pg=PT338#v=onepage&q&f=false). Still not really an answer, but hopefully slightly more relevant.

[Rex G]

To bolster the pre-1980 parameter, for Houston PD, when I was a cadet, in 1983, I was seeing some MUCH-used 1911 pistols in officers’ duty holsters. After I was sworn, in March 1984, my Phase One FTO mentioned being in a shooting incident, with his by-then well-worn 1911, and the narrative indicated that this had happened some number of years earlier.

One of my FPE officers also carried a much-worn 1911, this being early/mid-1984. (FPE = Field Performance Evaluator. “Eval” happened after the FTO phases.)

So, even though I did not start until 1983-1984, I was observing, eyes-on, strong evidence that the 1911 was strongly established.

I will try to find documented accounts of Pre-Eighties incidents that occurred, with 1911 pistols. One that I am reasonably certain happened, with a 1911, should date from the Seventies. It was an ND, into a suspect, who was being searched.

Edited to add: Alas, the site I had hoped to use does not extend as far back as the Seventies.

[HCM]

The British Shanghai Municipal police in the 1920s/30s under Sykes and Fairbairn issued Colt 1911s to the European officers and Colt 1903s or 1908s to the Chinese officers.

As I recall Tom Givens has one of those 1911s.

[srcochran49]

The Gallatin County, Montana Sheriffs Dept. are required to carry 1911's. They issue Springfields, with some deputies carrying privately owned Kimbers.

[BigD]

I appreciate your effort and recognition of trying to stick to the topic, but at this point I say have at it. It's pretty obvious that half the people commenting didn't even bother to actually read the first post anyway, so it's basically a free-for-all of all the information I specifically said that I wasnt looking for.



Since the topic is officially off track and we are talking about current use and not historical use...(sorry TGS)

I interacted earlier this month with a patrol officer from a Southern California PD - where it seems the 1911 had and may still have a foothold. His duty pistol was a Glock with plastic factory sights. :( He said he was afforded the bare minimum amount of rounds to qualify and no extra practice ammo. (Hard to believe but maybe that's the way it is in local PDs.)

BTW, this officer said he made $120k a year. (He missed out on getting grandfathered into the generous retirement which could be 90% of his high one after 20 years. His would have been a little lower.)

I bring up the salary to show this isn't a poor county in the rural South with no money. If the PD wanted to, they could scrape up some money for some tritium sights. Or if they required their officers to purchase their own pistol, they could require their officers to spend the extra $80 for metal night sights.)

My point? The fact that a PD issues/authorizes something means almost nothing. While I trust the FBI and big fed agencies to do proper testing before adopting something (and even then there have been some questionable decisions or issues that testing didn't reveal, I sure), I can't say the same for every PD. So saying XYZ PD carries our pistol doesn't mean anything. (I'm looking at you, Staccato.)

[TGS]

So saying XYZ PD carries our pistol doesn't mean anything. (I'm looking at you, Staccato.)

Shots fired!

[Utm]

I had a friendly reason to chat with a couple of Hurst PD officers last year and I asked about the 1911s in their holsters as soon as it was polite to do so. I assumed they were private purchase, I never thought to ask if they were issued.

They just switched to glocks with aimpoint acro and a tlr1

[Tamara]

While I trust the FBI and big fed agencies to do proper testing before adopting something (and even then there have been some questionable decisions or issues that testing didn't reveal, I sure), I can't say the same for every PD.

Almost no municipal (and damned few state) LE agencies have the resources or wherewithal to actually *test* gear, whether guns or cruisers or whatever. They all either piggyback off testing done by teh feds or one of a handful of large agencies, or else they buy whatever the chief thinks is cool or saw on the cover of Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement in the checkout line at the Piggly Wiggly.

[ralph]

Almost no municipal (and damned few state) LE agencies have the resources or wherewithal to actually *test* gear, whether guns or cruisers or whatever. They all either piggyback off testing done by teh feds or one of a handful of large agencies, or else they buy whatever the chief thinks is cool or saw on the cover of Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement in the checkout line at the Piggly Wiggly.

Local Sheriff is guilty of just that..While shopping for M4’s for the dept. a few years back, ends up buying Bushmasters, ignoring a super deal for Colts that was made by a local shop, for just very slightly more.. Deputy I know told me this, he carries his personal M4 on the job (BCM) turned down the Bushmaster.. Not surprisingly, the Bushmasters turned out to be problematic...

[TGS]

Local Sheriff is guilty of just that..While shopping for M4’s for the dept. a few years back, ends up buying Bushmasters, ignoring a super deal for Colts that was made by a local shop, for just very slightly more.. Deputy I know told me this, he carries his personal M4 on the job (BCM) turned down the Bushmaster.. Not surprisingly, the Bushmasters turned out to be problematic...

There's a member on the forum whose agency made them turn in their Colts in exchange for Windham...

[BigD]

Almost no municipal (and damned few state) LE agencies have the resources or wherewithal to actually *test* gear, whether guns or cruisers or whatever. They all either piggyback off testing done by teh feds or one of a handful of large agencies, or else they buy whatever the chief thinks is cool or saw on the cover of Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement in the checkout line at the Piggly Wiggly.

Exactly, but I thought he bought it at the Big Star.

(I didn't mean that local PDs do much if any testing. But if you didn't know better, you'd think they'd have some 'gun guys' that have heard about plastic sights and can look to what the big PDs and feds are doing.)

My understanding was that my own agency was about to pay a consultant $1 million to pick between the Glock and M&P. Before the red tape could be cut and the bureaucracy could get the contract signed, the FBI had chosen the Glock and in the end we just piggybacked off that, fortunately. Use that $1 million somewhere else.

[ralph]

There's a member on the forum whose agency made them turn in their Colts in exchange for Windham...

Wow..kinda hard to understand the mental gymnastics involved in that decision, but, I guess if you don’t know what you don’t know....

[JRV]

Almost no municipal (and damned few state) LE agencies have the resources or wherewithal to actually *test* gear, whether guns or cruisers or whatever. They all either piggyback off testing done by teh feds or one of a handful of large agencies, or else they buy whatever the chief thinks is cool or saw on the cover of Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement in the checkout line at the Piggly Wiggly.

I have a sister at a large local LE agency in the South. Her agency’s patrol rifle T&E process was “the agency armorer wrote a white paper based on Internet forums and limited personal experience.”

They ended up buying troublesome piston ARs from a company that went bankrupt in a couple years.

They replaced their piston guns with over-gassed 16” Rock Rivers with short, chunky quadrails, because brass bought a time machine to get rifles from 2004.

It’s like they’re trying to buy sub-optimal equipment on purpose.

[JTMcC]

I don't know what they "issued", but when I was a kid in Coconino County AZ, a lot of Sheriff's deputes carried 1911's. In the late 70's.
In the early 80's to early 90's, again not knowing what they issued or even if they did issue a handgun, I know several Yavapai County AZ deputies who carried 1911's,(the 10mm Delta Elite when it came out was BIG), the 1st (and 2nd, 3rd) Delta Elite I ever saw was on a Yavapai Co. deputy, bought at J&G in Prescott.
All with several extra mags and most with a J or K or L frame backup.
One guy who was a good friend of my Dad (RIP Carmen), carried a .45 acp 1911 and 4 spare mags on the belt in Coconino County and probably a couple more mags in pockets, plus a couple revolvers.
Usually in a Bianchi thumb break basket weave black holster if I'm recalling correctly and I think I am.

[Archer1440]

A couple of years ago, I ran into a local cop in Utah who looked like he was ready to step into a USPSA box. Canted mags, mag at 11 o’clock, the works. I think he had 8 mags on his belt. Was running a 1911 in what looked like a Safariland retention holster.

[bustermed]

I know that 1911s were the standard sidearm of Clovis, CA PD, back in the 1970s and, I think, into the 1980s. Their chief firearms instructor was a Jeff Cooper acolyte, and may have worked at Gunsite for a while. During the 1980s (or was it the early 90s?) Bakersfield PD transitioned from some S&W _59 double/single pistols to 1911, and their chief instructor also had trained at Gunsite, under Cooper. During the transition, there were a few unintended discharges-- all with the supposedly safer Smiths, with which the officers initially were more familiar.

Here, in Georgia, the DeKalb County Sheriff's Department issued .357 revolvers, back then, but 1911s were an (and the only) approved option, and a large percentage of deputies went through the required transition course and, after qualifying, carried them. Their chief firearms instructor was Barry Worrell, a former Border Patrolman and Jefferson County, AL deputy sheriff, who, for a while, worked full-time at Gunsite, helping Cooper with one side of the operation, while the late Chuck Taylor assisted with another. Barry also was a frequent contributor to (and, maybe, associate for) Combat Handguns.

Don't know about Bakersfield PD, but I do recall that other agencies, including much larger ones, didn't enjoy competing with Clovis PD in combat competitions. Likewise, DeKalb S.O. was known for having the most demanding qualification course in the metro Atlanta area, not only using smaller paper targets and tougher scoring than than what then was the State standard, but also slashing most of the allowed times by as much as 50%. Very few deputy-involved shootings, and the one I remember, specifically, involved an off-duty deputy who tried to quiet down a party, was shot in the back while walking away, and, after falling to the ground, took out the gunman. That deputy was armed with a revolver, which underscores that (human) software ("programmed through training and practice) is more important than hardware.

Our own department, a campus police department for a private university, issued .38 S&W revolvers during the period in question, but allowed officers who completed a rather demanding transition program to carry any personal .38, .357, 9mm, .40, 10mm, or .45 ACP pistol or revolver of their choice, subject to our firearms team approving it (quality, reliability, and their being sufficiently familiar to properly inspect it). Meanwhile, we doubled (tripled?) down on firearms training, generally, with unanticipated results. First, several officers who'd been eager with switch to high-capacity pistols, became content with their revolvers, once their skills and confidence increased (no transitioning was allowed until the officer had qualified on the new, much more demanding course, with his/her issued revolver). Second, two of our minority officers later took me aside, to tell me (I was the chief) that the firearms program, which both had initially thought ridiculous and ill-advised, had done more to reduce racial tensions within our department than had the lengthy sensitivity/awareness program we'd all gone through. Third, recruiting became less of a challenge, as both the number and quality of applicants increased. And, fourth, we gained greater credibility with other law enforcement agencies-- not that firearms prowess should have much impact in that regard, but, in the law enforcement circles in which we operated, it did.

BTW, although our campus was quite liberal by Georgia standards, and quite a few of our students came from the Northeast and other regions in which firearms are viewed differently than they generally are in the South, not once did anyone complain or shrink in horror at the sight of a cocked-and-locked 1911 in an officer's holster. The few times anything was said, there was a genuine question (e.g. "Is that safe?" to which the officer responded with detailed answer that satisfied the professor) or a compliment, of sorts (e.g. "They let you guys carry 1911s? Cool!"). So much for the claim (never based on actual data) that, "The public would never stand for it!"

I continue to believe that a single-action pistol with both a thumb and grip safety is better suited for law enforcement purposes than any other configuration, including, even especially, hybrid actions that rely of trigger-safeties, provided the agency invests in training and practice, so that manipulating the thumb safety becomes second nature. Much less likely to attempt to re-holster in unsafe condition than is the case with double/single pistols, and less likely to unintentionally discharge a round than has been the case with trigger safeties. But, as late as 1994, Colt Firearms refused to believe the 1911 had a future, except among gun buffs, IPSC shooters, and the like. Nor would Colt consider polycarbonate pistols for LE enforcement, as they believed LEO's were too tradition-bound to embrace anything that wasn't metal. They seemed to think Glock was a flash in the pan, even as both they and Smith were losing LE customers to the upstart.

[John Hearne]

Don't know about Bakersfield PD, but I do recall that other agencies, including much larger ones, didn't enjoy competing with Clovis PD in combat competitions.


Was this when Bill Jeans was with Clovis. He’s told stories of thrashing CHP at shooting events.

[Grouse870]

If your still keeping track. Cochise county (Arizona) sheriff dept. is still carrying 1911s

[JHC]

If your still keeping track. Cochise county (Arizona) sheriff dept. is still carrying 1911s

Do they issue it or are they personally owned? Any sense of which ones are in common use?

[Dave Williams]

One issue that I’m having continuing to carry a 1911 on duty is that I keep breaking my preferred holster, a 6378 ALS. The ALS wears out eventually and the holster will have no retention all of a sudden. I’ve broke 2 so far. Anyone with a similar experience?

[Grouse870]

Im assuming issued as all of the guys I’ve been on calls with or backed up all carry the same stainless 1911 with black grips. I’m not 100% sure I think they are kimbers. Next time I run into one I’ll ask.

[bustermed]

Yes, Bill Jeans. When I talked with him a few years later, Clovis had switched to Glocks, not because he or most officers at CPD preferred them, but because Colt's customer service/support had declined to a point where they couldn't be relied upon, which was never an issue with Glock. I never met Bill in person, by the way, not even back when I worked at Fresno S.O. (in a "civilian" position). My conversations with him were over the phone, a few years after I moved to Georgia, where I became the Legal Advisor for the DeKalb County Police, and then a captain and, later, chief at Emory University PD. Don't remember the name of the firearms guy at Bakersfield, but he was impressive.

BTW, though the data is dated (I'm into aliteration), Fresno S.O.'s training unit did some interesting work back in the 80's, before anyone figured out the proper way to design and manufacture 9mm projectiles. They went back as far as they could, using whatever reports were available, and compared deputy-involved shootings before and after their transition from Model 15 .38 revolvers to 9mm Model 59 pistols. They couldn't find a single incident in which a revolver-armed deputy had been shot because he (all the road deputies were male, back in the revolver days) lacked sufficient cover, concealment, and/or time to reload (speed loaders), nor did there seem to be any difference in the number of times an opponent was hit in the torso before ceasing to be a threat-- somewhere between two and three times, but closer to three than to two. The big difference was that, after switching to the Model 59s, the average number of rounds fired by deputies DOUBLED, despite the average number of hits remaining the same. Great if you happened to be a by-stander who was standing down range, huh?

So, when it was time to replace the 59s, they decided to switch to .45 ACP, and considered 1911s, based on Clovis PDs experience with them. In the end, though, they went with Smith 645's, not because they were great fans of them, but because the familiarity-gap between the 59s and the 645s was narrower than it would have been with 1911s. They then used the excess transition funds to step up training-- with deputies going to the range every month, and not only qualifying, but also being presented with IPSC type problems, e.g. sitting at a table, fork in hand, and the light or buzzer goes off, etc. When I last spoke with C. Rodney Craig, in their training unit, average number of hits (out of five deputy-involved shootings with 645s) had dropped to 1.2, and missed shots were back to revolver levels. He said that they didn't attribute the difference as much to to the change in caliber or service pistol as they did to greater combat proficiency. I think that would have been in the late 1980s, or even 1990 or so.

BTW, I'm sad to say that the last time I saw the late Chuck Taylor (don't get me wrong, it's not like he knew me-- we met a few times, briefly, because our department brought him in as an ourside instructor for a couple of week-long training programs), he was carrying a .40 Glock.




Was this when Bill Jeans was with Clovis. He’s told stories of thrashing CHP at shooting events.

[bustermed]

Our department allowed (and somewhat encouraged) 1911s as an option, but officers who purchased a 1911 for duty use were provided with holsters and magazine pouches by the department. Uniform personnel were issued Dan Blocker gear-- straight up draw, with a simple thumb snap. No tension screw, if I recall, but it was next to impossible for an oppoent to snatch the pistol out of the holster from the front, back or side. Hand atop the gun, then pivot, was a weapon-retention technique every officer could master.

I always wore civvies/mufti, so I had other options, and chose a Taylor Omega from Gordon Davis Leather. Loved it, and never had any maintenance issues.



One issue that I’m having continuing to carry a 1911 on duty is that I keep breaking my preferred holster, a 6378 ALS. The ALS wears out eventually and the holster will have no retention all of a sudden. I’ve broke 2 so far. Anyone with a similar experience?

[JTQ]

Uniform personnel were issued Dan Blocker gear--
Probably Ted Blocker https://tedblockerholsters.com

Dan Blocker played Hoss in Bonanza

[SW CQB 45]

One issue that I’m having continuing to carry a 1911 on duty is that I keep breaking my preferred holster, a 6378 ALS. The ALS wears out eventually and the holster will have no retention all of a sudden. I’ve broke 2 so far. Anyone with a similar experience?

I have a 6360 where the ALS has hair retention. Its wore out and I wont use it for duty anymore.

I used to have a pretty good contact with Safariland who was from the Houston area and he would come see me about 2-3 times a year.

if I broke something, he had stuff to fix it. He left some years ago.

[03RN]

I have a 6360 where the ALS has hair retention. Its wore out and I wont use it for duty anymore.

I used to have a pretty good contact with Safariland who was from the Houston area and he would come see me about 2-3 times a year.

if I broke something, he had stuff to fix it. He left some years ago.

Well that's disheartening. I just got a 6390

[SW CQB 45]

Well that's disheartening. I just got a 6390

I have had it since 2008 -2009 ish. I have 16K through my personal MCOP... double that with holster draws..... I say it held up pretty good.

I think you will be ok.

[03RN]

I have had it since 2008 -2009 ish. I have 16K through my personal MCOP... double that with holster draws..... I say it held up pretty good.

I think you will be ok.

Ok, thanks.

Are they reparable?

[SW CQB 45]

Ok, thanks.

Are they reparable?

My answer is strictly my opinion.

The ALS part is a 1-piece assembly and it is held on with one screw. Therefore you would think the ALS assembly is replaceable part.

We (the dept) got into Safariland in 1992 with the 070 and then 2011ish with the 6360, then eventually the 7360. With Glock, they have been a very durable holster. We found out Gen 5 Glocks dont work in the older holsters that fit the Gen 4s.

I am the only one packing single stack 1911 since 2008. My original holsters were 6360 non lighted and lighted and since I was driving a desk (INV, IA, Support Svcs, Patrol Admin) I was using my heavily worn 6360 for office and if I went to work and extra job or street assignment, I swapped out for the hardly used (marked X200 light - HA!).

From a dept standpoint, Safariland would send me bolts, spacers and we go through rotating hoods (officers dont oil the metal to metal and spring in the rotating hood and it gets rusty crunchy- high humidity area).

You are going to laugh at this one.... I asked for a replacement ALS part for my 1911 6360....and I got sent a brand new holster (light).

I wonder if the ALS part is like calling Springfield for a grip safety..... its a safety part and they wont sell/send it to you.

Another area that most wont do, I cut off the protective kydex bridge for the ALS that I believe only 1911 holsters had. I felt it slowed me down and its never been an issue with it missing.

I dont want you to use me as a basis for Safariland ALS for 1911 is not good. My holster draw practice numbers are likely very conservative. I went to alot of schools/training and police competitions in the 2010-2020s decade with my 6360 non lighted holster. As an instructor, add even more as I teach cadets firearms and officers in-service trainings. I really liked my non lighted 1911 holster because it meant I was not carrying a light (lighter weight), the light holster is longer and it caused me to sit awkward as the holster muzzle was on the center console or chair seat.

I have been searching for a cheap, beat up 6360 for a 1911 so I could rob the ALS part and try it in my heavily worn non light holster.

Another laugh, a few years ago... I was going to replace my 5" MCOP for duty carry with an aluminum framed railed Champion .45. I was still driving a desk at the time and cut the bottom of my beloved non lighted 6360 off to match the 4" barrel length. It was a dream to carry from an office standpoint.

here is the cut version.
https://i.imgur.com/foy69w8h.jpg

Like a dumb azz, I wanted something else.... and sold the 4" Champion and I had a holster that was worthless (I was still assigned to the office). But being frugal and having kydex and a heat gun, I went to work. Not many noticed but the ones around me threw rocks, but it still worked (from an office standpoint)

I got moved back to the streets in Oct 2020... and its my old X200 holster with a X300. This holster does not have the "time" that my non lighted holster has. I wont carry my non lighted holster on the street as I feel the ALS is worn to the point were a gun grab will easily defeat that level of retention.

https://i.imgur.com/L737CdOh.jpg

I will dig out my old holster and snap a pic.

[03RN]

Thank you for that write up. I just wear safariland for fun/woods/competition. I switched to a 6004 for woods carry and commonality with my k frame 6004 but I found that while the k frame 6004 lends itself to really smooth draws the 1911 one caused me some issues so I switched back to an ALS.

I have always kept that little bridge thing but I absolutely need the nub for 1911 ALS holsters.

[SW CQB 45]

here is an image of my bridge cut off and shaped. The ALS has to come out for this.


https://i.imgur.com/3SS577uh.jpg

[03RN]

here is an image of my bridge cut off and shaped. The ALS has to come out for this.


https://i.imgur.com/3SS577uh.jpg

Have you tried the nub?
92616

[SW CQB 45]

I have not tried the nub.

I never thought I was going back to the streets.... I need to get one as it might improve my speed or if I have a jacked up draw... the extra material might make it a success.

is that a Springer MCOP in the holster?

the nub extractor, green frame, ambi springer thumb safety and the 2 dot Novak night sight are clues.

[Grouse870]

Not 1911 related but I recently picked up a NUB for my safariland 6360. It’s fantastic totally worth it. They had “blem” ones for like 20 bucks.

[SW CQB 45]

where did you buy it from?

[HCM]

where did you buy it from?

I’ve had good experiences ordering direct from the manufacturer, Oregon Trail Defense.

Sorry if it was already mentioned but there are specific Nub Mod for Level 2 and Level 3 1911 holsters.

92631

[WobblyPossum]

Regarding replacement of worn out ALS mechanisms, in my experience Safariland will replace them for free with no questions asked. When I was with my prior agency and issued a G21 in and ALS/SLS holster, I would dry fire with a G17 sized SIRT in G17 ALS holster. Since the ejection port of the SIRT is made up of multiple sharp corners, eventually I would wear out the plastic on the ALS where it locks into the gun’s ejection port. This happened either two or three times over four years. Each time, I called Safariland CS and explained I had worn out the ALS on whatever holster model it was. Within a week, I’d have a package from Safariland at my door containing a new ALS piece. I’d just swap out the old piece for the new piece since it’s held on by a single screw.

ETA: I’m a big fan of the Oregon Trail Defense Nub for the ALS. I ran one on an ALS holster and currently run one for an ALS/SLS holster. I find the addition of the Nub leads to a much more reliable activation of the ALS when pushing speed.

[03RN]

I have not tried the nub.

I never thought I was going back to the streets.... I need to get one as it might improve my speed or if I have a jacked up draw... the extra material might make it a success.

is that a Springer MCOP in the holster?

the nub extractor, green frame, ambi springer thumb safety and the 2 dot Novak night sight are clues.

It is. It was a great gun but I sold it to fund my LW champion operator which spends a lot of time on my belt.

[SW CQB 45]

thanks for the info on the NUB. I will order one tonight!!!!!

[Chuck Whitlock]

One issue that I’m having continuing to carry a 1911 on duty is that I keep breaking my preferred holster, a 6378 ALS. The ALS wears out eventually and the holster will have no retention all of a sudden. I’ve broke 2 so far. Anyone with a similar experience?


I have a 6360 where the ALS has hair retention. Its wore out and I wont use it for duty anymore.

I used to have a pretty good contact with Safariland who was from the Houston area and he would come see me about 2-3 times a year.

if I broke something, he had stuff to fix it. He left some years ago.

I have had good luck getting replacement parts from Safariland CS....but call on the regular number, not the toll-free one....that one never got answered. (my last experience was several years ago, so YMMV)


My answer is strictly my opinion.

The ALS part is a 1-piece assembly and it is held on with one screw. Therefore you would think the ALS assembly is replaceable part.

We (the dept) got into Safariland in 1992 with the 070 and then 2011ish with the 6360, then eventually the 7360. With Glock, they have been a very durable holster. We found out Gen 5 Glocks dont work in the older holsters that fit the Gen 4s.

I am the only one packing single stack 1911 since 2008. My original holsters were 6360 non lighted and lighted and since I was driving a desk (INV, IA, Support Svcs, Patrol Admin) I was using my heavily worn 6360 for office and if I went to work and extra job or street assignment, I swapped out for the hardly used (marked X200 light - HA!).

From a dept standpoint, Safariland would send me bolts, spacers and we go through rotating hoods (officers dont oil the metal to metal and spring in the rotating hood and it gets rusty crunchy- high humidity area).

You are going to laugh at this one.... I asked for a replacement ALS part for my 1911 6360....and I got sent a brand new holster (light).

I wonder if the ALS part is like calling Springfield for a grip safety..... its a safety part and they wont sell/send it to you.

Another area that most wont do, I cut off the protective kydex bridge for the ALS that I believe only 1911 holsters had. I felt it slowed me down and its never been an issue with it missing.

I dont want you to use me as a basis for Safariland ALS for 1911 is not good. My holster draw practice numbers are likely very conservative. I went to alot of schools/training and police competitions in the 2010-2020s decade with my 6360 non lighted holster. As an instructor, add even more as I teach cadets firearms and officers in-service trainings. I really liked my non lighted 1911 holster because it meant I was not carrying a light (lighter weight), the light holster is longer and it caused me to sit awkward as the holster muzzle was on the center console or chair seat.

I have been searching for a cheap, beat up 6360 for a 1911 so I could rob the ALS part and try it in my heavily worn non light holster.

Another laugh, a few years ago... I was going to replace my 5" MCOP for duty carry with an aluminum framed railed Champion .45. I was still driving a desk at the time and cut the bottom of my beloved non lighted 6360 off to match the 4" barrel length. It was a dream to carry from an office standpoint.

here is the cut version.
https://i.imgur.com/foy69w8h.jpg

Like a dumb azz, I wanted something else.... and sold the 4" Champion and I had a holster that was worthless (I was still assigned to the office). But being frugal and having kydex and a heat gun, I went to work. Not many noticed but the ones around me threw rocks, but it still worked (from an office standpoint)

I got moved back to the streets in Oct 2020... and its my old X200 holster with a X300. This holster does not have the "time" that my non lighted holster has. I wont carry my non lighted holster on the street as I feel the ALS is worn to the point were a gun grab will easily defeat that level of retention.

https://i.imgur.com/L737CdOh.jpg

I will dig out my old holster and snap a pic.


I have not tried the nub.

I never thought I was going back to the streets.... I need to get one as it might improve my speed or if I have a jacked up draw... the extra material might make it a success.

is that a Springer MCOP in the holster?

the nub extractor, green frame, ambi springer thumb safety and the 2 dot Novak night sight are clues.

SW CQB 45

Dude, check your PMs.

[SW CQB 45]

I have been in contact with OT Defense and my holsters are older than I thought.

I have pre 2008 models which might make NUB MODs difficult.

Here is my original office holster (HA!) and it has a hair ALS and I cut the muzzle for a 4" gun and put my version of a patch for a 5".

https://i.imgur.com/ectjWRbh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xtaN1Zih.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hnM3Kfph.jpg

While it has a lot of wear, it would need a replacement ALS to return to service.

Here is my current duty rig and its marked X200 light. Damn I had one of those early on.

https://i.imgur.com/xa3bhz7h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dtDyLMIh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QviPtNQh.jpg

I am hard on my stuff. This has to be from the center console of the small Ford Explorers

https://i.imgur.com/IcsIjVvh.jpg

[TheNewbie]

I have been in contact with OT Defense and my holsters are older than I thought.

I have pre 2008 models which might make NUB MODs difficult.

Here is my original office holster (HA!) and it has a hair ALS that I cut and put my version of a patch.

https://i.imgur.com/ectjWRbh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xtaN1Zih.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hnM3Kfph.jpg

While it has a lot of wear, it would need a replacement ALS to return to service.

Here is my current duty rig and its marked X200 light. Damn I had one of those early on.

https://i.imgur.com/xa3bhz7h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dtDyLMIh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QviPtNQh.jpg

I am hard on my stuff. This has to be from the center console of the small Ford Explorers

https://i.imgur.com/IcsIjVvh.jpg



What tourniquet holder are you using?

[SW CQB 45]

https://centrifugetraining.com/product/holster-accessory-mount/

https://centrifugetraining.com/product/evolution-tourniquet-pouch/

[UNM1136]

Probably on the edge of what you're looking for.

Dallas PD did not have any standard issue weapons for most of its history. A number of officers (uniformed and plainclothes) carried 1911s. I have no idea when they adopted standard issue equipment, but I don't think it was until the 1980s.

Last week I was in a legal update with an attorney who was DPD from that Era. To include SWAT. He said that they were stuck with revolvers (privatey owned) until late 80s I think he said 1988. He relayed a story of two DPD officers who bought early Gold Cups, stuffed them in holsters and went to work. Got into a shootout and each only got a couple of rounds off each before both guns malfunctioned and the officers could not reduce the malfunctions. Both were killed. Whether it was institutional lore or not I cannot say. He liked war stories and at times seemed to want to teach FTO and Officer Survival.

I didn't think of researching it until I saw your post but it shouldn't be too difficult. He is a local law professor and even without asking him it should not be too hard with the interwebs,.as opposed to microfiche

He was pretty good at teaching Search and Siezure.

pat

[HCM]

Last week I was in a legal update with an attorney who was DPD from that Era. To include SWAT. He said that they were stuck with revolvers (privatey owned) until late 80s I think he said 1988. He relayed a story of two DPD officers who bought early Gold Cups, stuffed them in holsters and went to work. Got into a shootout and each only got a couple of rounds off each before both guns malfunctioned and the officers could not reduce the malfunctions. Both were killed. Whether it was institutional lore or not I cannot say. He liked war stories and at times seemed to want to teach FTO and Officer Survival.

I didn't think of researching it until I saw your post but it shouldn't be too difficult. He is a local law professor and even without asking him it should not be too hard with the interwebs,.as opposed to microfiche

He was pretty good at teaching Search and Siezure.

pat

When DPD transitioned from revolvers in the late 80s they went to DA/SA SIG P226 9mm. They were recently carrying SIG P226 9mm DAKs. They briefly authorized, then de-authorized original / pre upgrade P320s a few years ago. The 226 DAKs were recently replaced with Gen5 Glock 9mms.

Wayne Dobbs addressed the DPD 1911 thing earlier in this thread(post 40):


Dallas PD had lots of 1911s in the 70s, but one that malfunctioned in a nasty street shooting and resulted in the death of one officer and critical wounding of another in ~1976 really started showing the system the door.

[UNM1136]

Thanks for the timeline. And quote.

I am just getting back online after a few weeks without due to eye surgery and my eyes get tired quickly and my reading speed goes down..

He mentioned how great speed loaders and speed strips were, which I agreed with. I chuckled when he had to describe them for the class.

He said he used Models, or 66s, I don't recall which, one primary wth a six inch barrel, and a New York reload with a 2.5. On patrol and in SWAT until the late 80s.

And patrol cars without cages, and "powerful Maglite flashlights" that I laughed at, having the week before found an old SF 6P and M2 in and box that immediately got Malkoffs ordered for them. I replaced my Maglite with a 6R and SL20 eary on.

I have a couple of incandescent P60 lamps if any one wants them. Thank goodness we have had the tech changes we have.

Maybe Wayne knows/knew him.

pat

[Wayne Dobbs]

With regard to the Dallas PD post by HCM, et. al.: Dallas PD has issued revolvers for a very long time. They've variously issued Model 10s, Model 15s and Model 64s (4" and 2"). Even though they did issue them, many, if not most of the personnel carried a personally owned revolver, with the calibers being from .38 Special, .357 Magnum (most popular), .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44 Special and .45 Colt. In the late 80s/early 90s they mandated first 4" only revolvers in uniform and then made the entire department a .355/.357 bore service gun PD. They allowed the newly approved 9mm, .38 Special and .357 Magnum. As time progressed, the number of revolvers dropped off and during my last visit to the FTU, they said they had one revolver left in uniform service.

The officer killed in the aforementioned 1911 failure was A. D. Hallum #3660: https://www.odmp.org/officer/5959-officer-alvin-duane-hallum

[KevH]

Just saw this thread and I apologize since I haven't read through the whole thing.

My department issued the Colt Series 70 in 45 ACP starting around 1973 all the way up through the mid-1980's when they forced everyone to carry the S&W 659 followed by the 5906.

They began to re-authorize the 1911 in the late 1990's with full authorization for privately-owned 1911's in the mid-2000's.

There are still a few carrying the 1911, but the 2011 is now far more popular.

[Tokarev]

Just saw this thread and I apologize since I haven't read through the whole thing.

My department issued the Colt Series 70 in 45 ACP starting around 1973 all the way up through the mid-1980's when they forced everyone to carry the S&W 659 followed by the 5906.

They began to re-authorize the 1911 in the late 1990's with full authorization for privately-owned 1911's in the mid-2000's.

There are still a few carrying the 1911, but the 2011 is now far more popular.2011 STI/Staccato only or other stuff like Atlas also?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[KevH]

2011 STI/Staccato only or other stuff like Atlas also?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Locally I only see Staccato. They seem to be "the thing" in the SF Bay Area right now.

Staccato offers a decent deal and good customer service for LE.

We have one cop that just bought a Wilson EDC9.

[Bucky]

We have one cop that just bought a Wilson EDC9.

EDC 9 or EDC X9? (The X being the double stack gun).

I much prefer the X9, not only due to capacity but 9mm specific frame / mags and the lack of grip safety.

[KevH]

EDC 9 or EDC X9? (The X being the double stack gun).

I much prefer the X9, not only due to capacity but 9mm specific frame / mags and the lack of grip safety.

The double-stack.

[UNM1136]

With regard to the Dallas PD post by HCM, et. al.: Dallas PD has issued revolvers for a very long time. They've variously issued Model 10s, Model 15s and Model 64s (4" and 2"). Even though they did issue them, many, if not most of the personnel carried a personally owned revolver, with the calibers being from .38 Special, .357 Magnum (most popular), .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44 Special and .45 Colt. In the late 80s/early 90s they mandated first 4" only revolvers in uniform and then made the entire department a .355/.357 bore service gun PD. They allowed the newly approved 9mm, .38 Special and .357 Magnum. As time progressed, the number of revolvers dropped off and during my last visit to the FTU, they said they had one revolver left in uniform service.

The officer killed in the aforementioned 1911 failure was A. D. Hallum #3660: https://www.odmp.org/officer/5959-officer-alvin-duane-hallum

Thanks Wayne! The attorney that did our legal update has been gone from DPD for a long, long time. Long enough to go to college (graduated from the same program a few years before I did), go to law school, practice privately for a decade or two and become a professor at two different law schools in two different states concurrently.

pat

[SW CQB 45]

ahhhhh, NUB where you been all my life.

You cannot miss with the NUB

I went cheap as they had seconds in the model I needed. They come bent, but I recall my dad making a comment about me in the 80s when I had a ruffy 72 hot rod Old Cutlass. He said I was used to working on junk. HAHAHA thanks Dad! A masking tape covered smooth jawed pliers and a careful squeeze and bend ... fixed.

thanks for suggesting this mod.

its tight in there with the rotating hood, enough clearance for the thumb safety and Sentry lock but it works.

https://i.imgur.com/pcZhMchh.jpg

[03RN]

If I couldn't have the nub I'd rather have a sls over the ALS.

Glad it's working out.

[MichaelOrick]

Pima county Arizona sheriffs department.
They carried 357 Mag revolvers and 45 ACP 1911s.
I was working Titan missile security out of DMAFB in Tucson at the time (80-84).

[Cambo]

I have seen only one police department in my life issue them / allow them, Southlake Texas. I'm sure there are others, that's the only one I've seen though.

[LockedBreech]

I realized I've been reading through the thread without contributing.

I have lived and worked in 6 different Wyoming and Colorado towns and 1911s are decently common but definitely in the minority. I knew a very experienced state investigator with at least a couple gunfights under his belt who I was surprised to learn carried a Kimber. I think it was one of the old OG Kimbers though. Used Wilson mags.

I knew one very dialed in deputy who done three tours as a Marine in Afghanistan. He carried a stainless Series 70 Colt Commander 4.25" in .45 Auto with Wilson magazines. That gun was heavily used, covered in scuffs and scratches, he practiced a lot with it. As I understand he had no issues with it. That's actually what made me choose a stainless Colt Government as my first 1911 - which I was and remain very happy with.

There was a sheriff (more of a politician, rarely did any street work) who carried an unknown model 1911 during his whole tenure. He and I weren't chummy so I never asked about it.

I've seen them in holsters about 10-20% of the time in smaller communities like Sheridan and Laramie, you'd think the older guys but here they're usually carried by younger deputies. The mountain west has a very strong gun culture so that's not too surprising. The older guys and gals I've worked with have almost to a person carried Gen 3 Glock 17s and 21s.

I'd say most of our LE are like LE everywhere else - about 80% Glocks. There are occasional dabbles into S&W and Sig but Glock remains the mainstay here.

Probably my favorite esoteric gun department was in Sundance, Wyoming, where I used to go to court for low-income clients. The deputies there all carried older-vintage Sig P220s. I guess they've never had issues with them so never really felt a need to change them.

[Dave Williams]

Safariland will send a new ALS lever for your holster if you send them proof of purchase (within 2 yrs), so that's what I did and now I'm back in business carrying God's Gun.

[HCM]

Probably my favorite esoteric gun department was in Sundance, Wyoming, where I used to go to court for low-income clients. The deputies there all carried older-vintage Sig P220s. I guess they've never had issues with them so never really felt a need to change them.

Having carried a P220 for a while in the 1990s… it’s more likely they don’t shoot / train much and don’t get into many OIS.

The 220 is as nice to shoot as a lightweight commander equivalent can be but they are significantly less durable than the other P22x series guns.

There are a lot of depts out there that shoot 100 or 200 rounds a year.

[Sensei]

Having carried a P220 for a while in the 1990sÂ… itÂ’s more likely they donÂ’t shoot / train much and donÂ’t get into many OIS.

The 220 is as nice to shoot as a lightweight commander equivalent can be but they are significantly less durable than the other P22x series guns.

There are a lot of depts out there that shoot 100 or 200 rounds a year.

I grew up outside of Richmond in Henrico County. Their PD used the P220 for a good portion of the 90s and early 2000s. You are certainly right about few OIS - maybe 1 every couple of years back then. I recall one very nasty OIS on I-64W near 295 West where the officer shot the guy some 7-10 times requiring a reload and was himself shot in the vest and leg. My recollection was that most of those were torso hits but the suspect kept getting up and returning fire. You know it’s the 90s when departments thought the 230 grain Federal Hydra-Shok was the end-all fight stopper…after 10 rounds.

[Trooper224]

Having carried a P220 for a while in the 1990s… it’s more likely they don’t shoot / train much and don’t get into many OIS.

The 220 is as nice to shoot as a lightweight commander equivalent can be but they are significantly less durable than the other P22x series guns.

There are a lot of depts out there that shoot 100 or 200 rounds a year.

I began my career with the state with the P220 as standard issue. Agreed on all counts. I've thought of picking up an old one for nostalgia. But, as a working gun it would be last on my list of P Series guns.

[LockedBreech]

Having carried a P220 for a while in the 1990s… it’s more likely they don’t shoot / train much and don’t get into many OIS.

The 220 is as nice to shoot as a lightweight commander equivalent can be but they are significantly less durable than the other P22x series guns.

There are a lot of depts out there that shoot 100 or 200 rounds a year.

That's certainly a possibility. Recreational shooting culture is pretty strong here. but there are always exceptions to that.

[HCM]

That's certainly a possibility. Recreational shooting culture is pretty strong here. but there are always exceptions to that.

Shooting recreationally and training / training on the clock are two different things.

[LockedBreech]

Shooting recreationally and training / training on the clock are two different things.

Yes indeed, and unfortunately I can see a strong possibility that the work guns get 50-100 rounds a year then holstered til the next year's quals, especially given the price of .45

[feudist]

Yes indeed, and unfortunately I can see a strong possibility that the work guns get 50-100 rounds a year then holstered til the next year's quals, especially given the price of .45

We had a salubrious example of that back in the 90s.
A young officer showed up for qual and when his HK USP was inspected, the trigger would not function. It was duly stripped and a tiny piece of gravel was found in the trigger mechanism.
According to him he had qualified 6 months ago, cleaned his pistol in the outside bleachers and dropped the frame in the gravel...
He had drawn the gun quite a few times and had taken several armed felons into custody.
"There goes 8 of your 9 lives, boy."

[LockedBreech]

We had a salubrious example of that back in the 90s.
A young officer showed up for qual and when his HK USP was inspected, the trigger would not function. It was duly stripped and a tiny piece of gravel was found in the trigger mechanism.
According to him he had qualified 6 months ago, cleaned his pistol in the outside bleachers and dropped the frame in the gravel...
He had drawn the gun quite a few times and had taken several armed felons into custody.
"There goes 8 of your 9 lives, boy."

That's terrifying.

[stinx]

We had a salubrious example of that back in the 90s.
A young officer showed up for qual and when his HK USP was inspected, the trigger would not function. It was duly stripped and a tiny piece of gravel was found in the trigger mechanism.
According to him he had qualified 6 months ago, cleaned his pistol in the outside bleachers and dropped the frame in the gravel...
He had drawn the gun quite a few times and had taken several armed felons into custody.
"There goes 8 of your 9 lives, boy."

That’s why function checking your weapon after field stripping matters.

[Tango]

I realized I've been reading through the thread without contributing.

I have lived and worked in 6 different Wyoming and Colorado towns and 1911s are decently common but definitely in the minority. I knew a very experienced state investigator with at least a couple gunfights under his belt who I was surprised to learn carried a Kimber. I think it was one of the old OG Kimbers though. Used Wilson mags.

I knew one very dialed in deputy who done three tours as a Marine in Afghanistan. He carried a stainless Series 70 Colt Commander 4.25" in .45 Auto with Wilson magazines. That gun was heavily used, covered in scuffs and scratches, he practiced a lot with it. As I understand he had no issues with it. That's actually what made me choose a stainless Colt Government as my first 1911 - which I was and remain very happy with.

There was a sheriff (more of a politician, rarely did any street work) who carried an unknown model 1911 during his whole tenure. He and I weren't chummy so I never asked about it.

I've seen them in holsters about 10-20% of the time in smaller communities like Sheridan and Laramie, you'd think the older guys but here they're usually carried by younger deputies. The mountain west has a very strong gun culture so that's not too surprising. The older guys and gals I've worked with have almost to a person carried Gen 3 Glock 17s and 21s.

I'd say most of our LE are like LE everywhere else - about 80% Glocks. There are occasional dabbles into S&W and Sig but Glock remains the mainstay here.

Probably my favorite esoteric gun department was in Sundance, Wyoming, where I used to go to court for low-income clients. The deputies there all carried older-vintage Sig P220s. I guess they've never had issues with them so never really felt a need to change them.

I've also seen 1911s in the younger crowd of LEOs. It seems to me that those around 45 and above right now are more glued to Glock. Kinda like older guys in the past tied into Revolvers. The younger guys are more open to 1911s or the Stacatto P style options. As double stack 1911s become more widespread and cheaper via other reputable names joining in, it will only increase.

[M2CattleCo]

I've also seen 1911s in the younger crowd of LEOs. It seems to me that those around 45 and above right now are more glued to Glock. Kinda like older guys in the past tied into Revolvers. The younger guys are more open to 1911s or the Stacatto P style options. As double stack 1911s become more widespread and cheaper via other reputable names joining in, it will only increase.


I have LE, mostly sheriffs department at my place quite a bit and I see the same thing.

The Holy Grail Staccatos are proving to be 2011s. No more. The younger guys who carry them and 1911s are almost unvaryingly untrainable blow hards.

Carrying that kind of gun is akin to wearing pointy toed cowboy boots to work, which, they do that too.

The older guys carry Glocks and wear comfortable footwear because they’re past the point of vanity and just want things that work and don’t hurt..

[vcdgrips]

I have seen staccatos in 3 places:



USMS SOG (DPP)

KCK PD SWAT ( Not KCMO) (RMR)

3 or 4 AIWB as off duty weapons for young >3 yr KCPD officers who have more money than sense.

They are all in, the gun, extra mag, light, closed emitter optic (p2 and 509t.)

[Tango]

I have LE, mostly sheriffs department at my place quite a bit and I see the same thing.

The Holy Grail Staccatos are proving to be 2011s. No more. The younger guys who carry them and 1911s are almost unvaryingly untrainable blow hards.

Carrying that kind of gun is akin to wearing pointy toed cowboy boots to work, which, they do that too.

The older guys carry Glocks and wear comfortable footwear because they’re past the point of vanity and just want things that work and don’t hurt..

We may be talking past one another...

Just to start with, I'm 42 and have been carrying a G17 since 2015 for work. Before that, it was a P229DAK for six years. Stacatto Ps or 1911s when run by a Professional are just fine. Same as Glocks.

Young guys not listening to the older hands is wrong. Older guys clinging to a tool and not open to others, like I see with guys my age and older with Glocks, isn't good. Don't think one locked into only Glocks sounds or looks any different than retirees who talk of wheel guns...

Glocks are just fine to run, I do so myself. There are just more options at this time and a mindset change on different tools in LE, than when a certain generation came of age. The 1911 isn't new, its just being accepted in a larger capacity than when I came on. If someone else on the line steps up and runs a 1911/DS 1911 like a house on fire, well that's good to go in my book. Same goes as the transition from Glock 26s to Sig 365s occurs in my neck of the woods. In that area, I would honestly say, the G26 is long retired.

As for footwear, I don't rock cowboy attire but I do love horses and like boots.

[Trooper224]

I care more about what's between their ears than what's in their holsters.

[TGS]

I'd rather not be the progenitor of a, "back in my day when dodgeball was played with rocks" thread by a bunch of crotchety old people with opinions about how the world should be.

I guess it's too late to ask that people stick to what was asked for and specifically asked not for in the OP (which most everyone seems to have skipped over), but maybe if we could keep it atleast roughly to data about 1911 issuance by LEAs, that'd atleast be preferable to see another toilet-bowl oogie cookie thread.

[HCM]

All,

Does anyone know of any law enforcement agencies that used the 1911 during the heyday of the revolver? Let's say, 1980 as a cut-off date.

Just to head off annoying tangents:

1) I'm not looking for contemporary use by law enforcement.

2) I'm not looking for your opinion on the efficacy of 1911 vs revolver for LE use.

3) I'm not looking for one-off use by a "Tackleberry"....I'm more wondering about systemic, widespread use.

Houston PD Authorized them apparently as far back as the 1950s / 1960s. This weekend I shot with a retired HPD Pilot whose father was shot in the line of duty in 1958 and returned fire with a 1911 (support hand only) and hit his assailant 6 times.

[DDTSGM]

I'd rather not be the progenitor of a, "back in my day when dodgeball was played with rocks" thread by a bunch of crotchety old people with opinions about how the world should be.

I guess it's too late to ask that people stick to what was asked for and specifically asked not for in the OP (which most everyone seems to have skipped over), but maybe if we could keep it atleast roughly to data about 1911 issuance by LEAs, that'd atleast be preferable to see another toilet-bowl oogie cookie thread.

Kind of on topic - during my time at our academy there were several agencies that allowed 1911's and only one agency of any size that issued 1911's - for a short time after an OIS where 9mm didn't perform as the Chief felt it should.

I'd say there were three categories of police users: 1) vanity - rockin' the 1911 to be seen as a serious operator; 2) officer's who were not pistol enthusiasts but were issued the 1911; 3) serious users who put in the time to achieve proficiency.

The third category were the least plentiful. The vanity users were plentiful enough that they caused us to be suspicious of anyone walking onto the range with a 1911. Generally, the officers who were issued 1911's by the agency did well enough in our firearms training, especially if the 1911 was their first experience.

Personally, I don't think the 1911 is a good general issue pistol for LE.

JMO

[Trooper224]

I do know the Colorado Springs PD carried 1911s in the time period in question and were still doing so when I entered LE work in the early 90s.

I knew a townie cop who went to work for them specifically for that reason.

[MountainRaven]

I have LE, mostly sheriffs department at my place quite a bit and I see the same thing.

The Holy Grail Staccatos are proving to be 2011s. No more. The younger guys who carry them and 1911s are almost unvaryingly untrainable blow hards.

Carrying that kind of gun is akin to wearing pointy toed cowboy boots to work, which, they do that too.

The older guys carry Glocks and wear comfortable footwear because they’re past the point of vanity and just want things that work and don’t hurt..

Not to take things off-topic, but if your cowboy boots are uncomfortable, you're buying the wrong cowboy boots.

[Borderland]

The Weber County, UT Sheriff department issues Glocks but will allow a 1911 if the officer provides and qualifies with it. I know a female deputy who qualified 100%, and carries a Colt Rail Gun :cool:

Holy shit. That's one of those FA&FO scenarios.

[SoCalDep]

I can’t do 1980 as a cutoff since I was two years old. I decided I wanted to go into law enforcement when I was twelve, which was around 1990/1991. I became a gun-nut around that time and four guns intrigued me most. Those were the 1911, the Beretta 92F/FS/M9, the Glock 19, and the HK P7. The first time I fired a 1911 was the first time I was actually “scared” firing a pistol. I didn’t expect the recoil and hammer bite from that old GI gun. I was 15 and my parents didn’t like handguns so my exposure to them was sporadic. Going to the indoor range with my friend’s dad I found the 92F more fun and the A1 style AR-15 to be super cool. That said, there was something about that 1911.

Growing up in the Los Angeles area I saw the transition from revolvers to Berettas on LAPD and LASD. The only 1911 I remember seeing, and I still have an image of it burned into my brain, was during an annual father/son ski trip we did at a family friend’s house just outside the Mammoth ski resort. I remember seeing a Mammoth Lakes officer in the parking lot and noting his Colt 1911 with wood grips with the gold/brass medallion. The gun was blued but the hammer was “silver” colored.

Now I know that had I ventured further into the LA area there were multiple agencies issuing or allowing 1911s in the 80s and 90s, but back then that Mammoth officer was the first I’d seen in person.

It’s been 20 years since I started in LE here and there have been a lot of changes. One of the bigger equipment changes is the resurgence of the 1911. LAPD authorized anyone who could qualify expert around 2010 or so after SWAT had been using them for five-ish decades and SIS had started running them. We authorized them in 2016 thanks to a supportive Sheriff, and Long Beach PD had been issuing the 1911 for academy recruits for a long time, though they had to return them after a year or so and buy their own pistol. Now Orange County authorizes them and I was able to go to their course earlier this year. It’s rad. I think around 2019 the 1911 was getting ready to fade but Staccato has given new life to the platform. Embracing optics was huge and now they’re more popular than ever.

There are some people, both old and young, that try to adopt the 1911 or 2011 type pistol just because they think it’s cool and they suck. That’s one reason we copied LAPD and required a prerequisite qualification with a high accuracy standard. There are lots of young people I’ve seen who have truly embraced the history, uniqueness, frustration, and soul of the 1911. At least on the West coast the training is awesome. LAPD runs a 30hr class, we run a 16hr class, and OCSD runs an excellent 8hr class. Lots of agencies are bringing in great instructors. San Mateo is hosting great guys like Pannone and Hades Consulting. Young cops are training and from a shooting standpoint the motivated are way ahead. If I were the jealous type I’d try to find bad things to say, but they are going to surpass this generation fast. I think it’s neat to see and I’m glad I could be a part of moving things forward.

[Borderland]

.38 supers were popular with state and local cops in Mexico for those reasons, however, the Federales are/were allowed military calibers. .40, 10mm and .357 SIG have replaced the .38 super in that niche.

All of the Federales, (Federal police) I saw in MX had M4's or some other military rifle I couldn't ID. Probably HK .

Never saw a pistol there in the 4 years I traveled in Sonora and Chihuahua.

Reasons being the drug cartels had rifles and so do the feds.

Local police don't carry open. They're mostly plain clothes so you can't know who they are or what they carry.

It isn't the US with uniformed police. Too many dead cops.

[SecondsCount]

Holy shit. That's one of those FA&FO scenarios.

For sure. Her dad is very pro gun. He owns his own company and has a private 4 lane range in the basement.

[secondstoryguy]

Deleted

[Hambo]

All,

Does anyone know of any law enforcement agencies that used the 1911 during the heyday of the revolver? Let's say, 1980 as a cut-off date.


Not where I grew up or worked. Highway Patrol carried revolvers well past your cutoff (not sure if they were .38 or .357, but I recall seeing T-grips on them). I didn't see any semiautos at all until after 1980, and those were S&W 9mms (not issued). AFAIK there were no .45s of any kind until after 1990 (S&W issued to deputies and individual officers with 1911s or P220s). Departments switched from revolvers in the late 80s, early 90s.

[deputyG23]

I grew up outside of Richmond in Henrico County. Their PD used the P220 for a good portion of the 90s and early 2000s. You are certainly right about few OIS - maybe 1 every couple of years back then. I recall one very nasty OIS on I-64W near 295 West where the officer shot the guy some 7-10 times requiring a reload and was himself shot in the vest and leg. My recollection was that most of those were torso hits but the suspect kept getting up and returning fire. You know it’s the 90s when departments thought the 230 grain Federal Hydra-Shok was the end-all fight stopper…after 10 rounds.
I remember that incident. He was on his third and last magazine when the bad guy stopped shooting back.
That officer recovered and left Henrico for Metro DC PD where he is now a Lieutenant.

[M2CattleCo]

Anyway, sorry to derail your thread. Mexican Law Enforcement has always fascinated me.

I live in Jalisco a few months every year.

Mexican LE terrifies me.

[TheNewbie]

I live in Jalisco a few months every year.

Mexican LE terrifies me.


They have that effect as well. It’s a different world, no question about it. I need to get over to Jalisco at some point, been to a few other states but have not made it there.


Did LAPD have significant issues with their Kimbers, or did their copies get extra QC?

[BarneyCallahan]

I read through the thread, and I didn’t see Pomona, CA mentioned. Pomona PD carried 1911’s in the 70’s. Also, Long Beach PD carried 1911’s in the 70’s. (Long Beach has already been mentioned. But I think it was referencing a more recent time frame.) Other So Cal agencies that carried 1911’s that I was aware of have already been mentioned.

[FNFAN]

I read through the thread, and I didn’t see Pomona, CA mentioned. Pomona PD carried 1911’s in the 70’s. Also, Long Beach PD carried 1911’s in the 70’s. (Long Beach has already been mentioned. But I think it was referencing a more recent time frame.) Other So Cal agencies that carried 1911’s that I was aware of have already been mentioned.

Most of Denver's Gang Unit carries 1911's or did up until mid-last year.

[Archer1440]

Mexican LE terrifies me.

The third time I found myself staring directly into a gun barrel was in traffic in TJ, just past the Otay Mesa crossing from San Diego on the way to my company’s maquiladora. My engineering intern was in the passenger seat. A black Honda Accord with Kansas plates and four guys dressed as Federales, all waving pistols out the windows, was trying to barge through the knot of traffic, and the driver was quite agitated. Some flavor of Glock. I told the intern to get down and had picked a direction when the driver snapped the pistol to the next car over, and shot a gap. (With the car.)

I still wonder if the people in Kansas got their insurance money…

[M2CattleCo]

Yeah, you have to pay attention to details.

Week before last I had two motorcycle cops try to pull me over into a side street.

The one doing all the yelling was in a traffic cop uniform, but traffic cops aren’t supposed to be armed there. His bike didn’t have the city or municipality name on it, and he was wearing black AF1s with no socks.

I left…

[FrankB]

At least one deputy is using a 1911 in this OIS video:


https://youtu.be/N7Jykq8OtTo

[Gun Mutt]

Shortly before and just after the turn of the century, I took pistol and shotgun classes under Louis Awerbuck at the Boone Co. Sheriff's dept. range in Lebanon, IN. Ken Campbell was a Captain and then Sheriff before taking over as the CEO of Gunsite.

The deputies were issued a 5" Gunsite GSP and allowed a few alterations to suit their tastes. They could carry privately purchase pistols as long as they qualified with them and were chambered in .45acp. The sole Boone deputy I met that didn't carry a 1911 chose a Glock 30.

[R.M.T.]

To clear some dated info up that is pertaining to an agency in here GCSO (Gallatin County SO MT),

They started issuing Springfield in the 90s, began being phased out for Colt CRGs in 2012, with final conversion to Colt CRGs in 2015-16, and they no longer allow for individual officer firearms.

By the numbers I believe there are roughly 75 units in use currently including a number of LW commanders and CCOs.

Guns are NOT stock at all. All of them have the MiM lock work removed, replaced with Warner or Harrison Sears and Extreme engineering disconnectors. All of them have either a single side or ambi Wilson bulletproof safety, many see an extractor replacement, and firing pin stop replacement due to the breach face to hook length being way out of the GI spec.

All officers have the option of requesting certain parts be replaced or changed to suit their preferences, including, mag-wells, short triggers, round butts, thin grips, extended mag releases.

Mags are all Wilson ETMs, most of which are now the Vickers tactical ones.

Guns are sprung at 16/23 recoil and main respectively.

Guns go through a annual process to inspect their conidiation and see at the very least a FP spring and recoil spring swap.

Overall other than the general "it don't got enough bullets" complaints, and dudes riding slide stops they have only seen one gun go down hard, which was due to a bent series 80 part causing the plunger in the slide to become mistimed.

[R.M.T.]

To clear some dated info up that is pertaining to an agency in here GCSO (Gallatin County SO MT),

They started issuing Springfield in the 90s, began being phased out for Colt CRGs in 2012, with final conversion to Colt CRGs in 2015-16, and they no longer allow for individual officer firearms.

By the numbers I believe there are roughly 75 units in use currently including a number of LW commanders and CCOs.

Guns are NOT stock at all. All of them have the MiM lock work removed, replaced with Warner or Harrison Sears and Extreme engineering disconnectors. All of them have either a single side or ambi Wilson bulletproof safety, many see an extractor replacement, and firing pin stop replacement due to the breach face to hook length being way out of the GI spec.

All officers have the option of requesting certain parts be replaced or changed to suit their preferences, including, mag-wells, short triggers, round butts, thin grips, extended mag releases.

Mags are all Wilson ETMs, most of which are now the Vickers tactical ones.

Guns are sprung at 16/23 recoil and main respectively.

Guns go through a annual process to inspect their conidiation and see at the very least a FP spring and recoil spring swap.

Overall other than the general "it don't got enough bullets" complaints, and dudes riding slide stops they have only seen one gun go down hard, which was due to a bent series 80 part causing the plunger in the slide to become mistimed.


To finish my thoughts before a refresh, there have been more issues with action springs in ARs, and gasmasks breaking Forward assists in ARs than failures with 1911s.

Why do I think that is?

1. With issued guns, the reliability of a program, lives and dies by the armorer's knowledge, willingness to advocate for no compromise on parts, and their consistency, the program has been managed by a couple of individuals for 11 years now.

2. Weapon reliability is directly corelated to user training. From the beginning there has been a battle of getting end users to get their thumbs on top of the safety, off the slide and the slidestop.

3. Mags are replaced often, and as needed, they are gauged yearly, and tossed if suspect.

4. Back to knowledge, the folks running the 1911 program are both accomplished armorers, and one is a retired fulltime published 1911 smith, who built under another custom smith, they are fully equipped to work on these pistols the right way mills, fixtures, measuring equipment, so on. (my opinion here is that this is really the only way this program would be successful).

[Tokarev]

To clear some dated info up that is pertaining to an agency in here GCSO (Gallatin County SO MT),

They started issuing Springfield in the 90s, began being phased out for Colt CRGs in 2012, with final conversion to Colt CRGs in 2015-16, and they no longer allow for individual officer firearms.

By the numbers I believe there are roughly 75 units in use currently including a number of LW commanders and CCOs.

Guns are NOT stock at all. All of them have the MiM lock work removed, replaced with Warner or Harrison Sears and Extreme engineering disconnectors. All of them have either a single side or ambi Wilson bulletproof safety, many see an extractor replacement, and firing pin stop replacement due to the breach face to hook length being way out of the GI spec.

All officers have the option of requesting certain parts be replaced or changed to suit their preferences, including, mag-wells, short triggers, round butts, thin grips, extended mag releases.

Mags are all Wilson ETMs, most of which are now the Vickers tactical ones.

Guns are sprung at 16/23 recoil and main respectively.

Guns go through a annual process to inspect their conidiation and see at the very least a FP spring and recoil spring swap.

Overall other than the general "it don't got enough bullets" complaints, and dudes riding slide stops they have only seen one gun go down hard, which was due to a bent series 80 part causing the plunger in the slide to become mistimed.

Former Sheriff Bill Slaughter was the one to make the 1911 "official" for GCSO if my memory is correct. Officers were allowed to carry a number of different sidearms but the Sheriff did get money to buy some Springfields for issue. This would have been 1991? These were issued but deputies were allowed to buy their own Colts, etc.



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[R.M.T.]

Former Sheriff Bill Slaughter was the one to make the 1911 "official" for GCSO if my memory is correct. Officers were allowed to carry a number of different sidearms but the Sheriff did get money to buy some Springfields for issue. This would have been 1991? These were issued but deputies were allowed to buy their own Colts, etc.



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I think that's accurate, there were only 25 or so Springfields in inventory when the switch to the CRG happened.

[Tokarev]

I think that's accurate, there were only 25 or so Springfields in inventory when the switch to the CRG happened.That's probably about right. I think GCSO had about 40 sworn back then. I was a jailer. We had about 20 of us in detention.

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[R.M.T.]

That's probably about right. I think GCSO had about 40 sworn back then. I was a jailer. We had about 20 of us in detention.

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There were about a dozen MC operators purchased throughout the years leading up to the switch. With retirement buy backs, many of the old ones, with the shield engraved on the side, left.

[TGS]

Thanks for that knowledge bomb, R.M.T. That's a very detailed look into an incredibly unique program for 21st century LE. The fact they have their own heavy equipment, like a mill, for such a small agency is pretty stunning.

Interesting on the switch to the Colt Rail Gun from 2012-2015. IIRC, that adoption period straddles the time when the CRG was modified across the whole product line due to takeaways from the USMC M45A1 testing. Did the department replace the earlier style CRGs bought in 2012 in order to standardize? Or are there two different CRGs in use?

[Tokarev]

There were about a dozen MC operators purchased throughout the years leading up to the switch. With retirement buy backs, many of the old ones, with the shield engraved on the side, left.What's the current duty load?

I think Cascade County was also using the 1911 in the early 90s. Or maybe it was the S&W 645? Belgrade PD did use the Colt Double Eagle but I don't think it stayed in service very long.

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[R.M.T.]

Thanks for that knowledge bomb, R.M.T. That's a very detailed look into an incredibly unique program for 21st century LE. The fact they have their own heavy equipment, like a mill, for such a small agency is pretty stunning.

Interesting on the switch to the Colt Rail Gun from 2012-2015. IIRC, that adoption period straddles the time when the CRG was modified across the whole product line due to takeaways from the USMC M45A1 testing. Did the department replace the earlier style CRGs bought in 2012 in order to standardize? Or are there two different CRGs in use?


No problem,

The mill and equipment are all owned privately they did have a machine shop at one point recently when a former indoor range and gunsmithing service was acquired for an operations center.

Yes, there are 10 gen 1s, the bulk are gen 2 I believe. Functionally the guns are gone through completely and other than cosmetics there is very little dimensional difference.

[R.M.T.]

What's the current duty load?

I think Cascade County was also using the 1911 in the early 90s. Or maybe it was the S&W 645? Belgrade PD did use the Colt Double Eagle but I don't think it stayed in service very long.

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I believe they are still authorized as is Lewis and Clark county, and a several smaller PDs. Gold dot in the 230

[Robinson]

No problem,

The mill and equipment are all owned privately they did have a machine shop at one point recently when a former indoor range and gunsmithing service was acquired for an operations center.

Yes, there are 10 gen 1s, the bulk are gen 2 I believe. Functionally the guns are gone through completely and other than cosmetics there is very little dimensional difference.

The accessory rails are different. Once Colt started supplying guns to the USMC they standardized on that rail profile across the CRG line.

[R.M.T.]

The accessory rails are different. Once Colt started supplying guns to the USMC they standardized on that rail profile across the CRG line.

I would pile that in with cosmetics. But yes I am recalling them being a bit beefier.

[Robinson]

I would pile that in with cosmetics. But yes I am recalling them being a bit beefier.

Understood. The reason I mentioned it is because the Rail Guns since the military contract have been built with a Picatinny rail and will not fit holsters made for the earlier version.

[R.M.T.]

Understood. The reason I mentioned it is because the Rail Guns since the military contract have been built with a Picatinny rail and will not fit holsters made for the earlier version.

Ah, I don't believe thats been an issue as all the guns are issued with a TLR 1. I believe they still use a 6004.

[Tokarev]

DO YOU THINK THE 1911 IS THE WORST GUN FOR COPS?


https://www.thearmorylife.com/is-the-1911-the-worst-gun-for-cops/?utm_campaign=The%20Armory%20Life&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=248506919&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--X5T7fTpUs50TAOzzFrh9n5foz45X3fpPg443Z4wa7ajzDT9m1_ HXuug9NdDAddMYFufy9ZWWZE-Lj8Rc7XriO4zKLow&utm_content=248506919&utm_source=hs_email

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[HCM]

DO YOU THINK THE 1911 IS THE WORST GUN FOR COPS?


https://www.thearmorylife.com/is-the-1911-the-worst-gun-for-cops/?utm_campaign=The%20Armory%20Life&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=248506919&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--X5T7fTpUs50TAOzzFrh9n5foz45X3fpPg443Z4wa7ajzDT9m1_ HXuug9NdDAddMYFufy9ZWWZE-Lj8Rc7XriO4zKLow&utm_content=248506919&utm_source=hs_email

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I THINK IT’S A CLICKBAIT TITLE !

[Dave Williams]

DO YOU THINK THE 1911 IS THE WORST GUN FOR COPS?


https://www.thearmorylife.com/is-the-1911-the-worst-gun-for-cops/?utm_campaign=The%20Armory%20Life&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=248506919&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--X5T7fTpUs50TAOzzFrh9n5foz45X3fpPg443Z4wa7ajzDT9m1_ HXuug9NdDAddMYFufy9ZWWZE-Lj8Rc7XriO4zKLow&utm_content=248506919&utm_source=hs_email

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Depends on the cop.

[JohnK]

Dammit I got sucked in...

[SecondsCount]

Depends on the cop.


I was going to say the same thing. Most of the officers I know are not gun guys. The gun is just a tool to them.