Atlanta motorist with rifle case

[LittleLebowski]

Normally I would write something, but the news clip makes it pretty cut and dry in my opinion. The IQ of the "protester" is laughable, I think he might be high?

https://www.cbs46.com/news/atlanta-protester-hit-by-man-in-his-car-caught-on-camera/article_ad196904-b33b-11ea-8c79-efc4435557ca.html

[LittleLebowski]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqnADg0UQxI

[Grey]

"I'm pretty sure that's attempted... something..."

Yup... Maybe you should allow peaceful traffic to leave if they want and not try to hold them hostage with your body...

[5pins]

I'm sick and tired of the news calling these protests "peaceful" or "mostly peaceful". Having armed roadblocks and shooting at people is not peaceful by any standard.

[UNK]

Lots of LEOs and legal people here so I hope this can be fleshed out.
What are the legal aspects of this? People blocking the road and other people saying no Im not going to be blocked.
Does this fall under pedestrians have the right of way or do the drivers have rights?
What happens when as in the video it appears the guy in the vest had a hand on a gun.
A lot of variables in any possible scenario.

[RoyGBiv]

Second video further down in the OP link...



https://youtu.be/2LDDfPSvD3s

[BehindBlueI's]

Lots of LEOs and legal people here so I hope this can be fleshed out.
What are the legal aspects of this? People blocking the road and other people saying no Im not going to be blocked.
Does this fall under pedestrians have the right of way or do the drivers have rights?
What happens when as in the video it appears the guy in the vest had a hand on a gun.
A lot of variables in any possible scenario.

The biggest takeaway right now is people are getting charged for hitting the road blockers. I don't think it'll be a fun trial for the prosecutor, personally, but that's going to be cold comfort to the people being criminally charged, especially when protesters are *CLEARLY* jumping up on the hood of the vehicle.

My opinion is that at the least they are committing obstruction of traffic, a misdemeanor locally. An argument could be made for criminal confinement, but that's historically been an uphill battle. If the car can't be left where it's at safely if you were to exit, that's in your favor. If the car was not yet mobile and can be left there (ie, in a parking spot) then the prosecutor locally has argued you can't confine a vehicle and the owner/occupant was free to leave. That has *not* applied when the vehicle would be in danger if left, such as a repo man's truck in an irate customer's driveway. So a lot of context matters.

Except now, when politics may matter more.

[littlejerry]

The biggest takeaway right now is people are getting charged for hitting the road blockers. I don't think it'll be a fun trial for the prosecutor, personally, but that's going to be cold comfort to the people being criminally charged, especially when protesters are *CLEARLY* jumping up on the hood of the vehicle.

My opinion is that at the least they are committing obstruction of traffic, a misdemeanor locally. An argument could be made for criminal confinement, but that's historically been an uphill battle. If the car can't be left where it's at safely if you were to exit, that's in your favor. If the car was not yet mobile and can be left there (ie, in a parking spot) then the prosecutor locally has argued you can't confine a vehicle and the owner/occupant was free to leave. That has *not* applied when the vehicle would be in danger if left, such as a repo man's truck in an irate customer's driveway. So a lot of context matters.

Except now, when politics may matter more.

How about one of the "protesters" pointing a rifle at the car?

Drivers lawyer seems to indicate one of the people outside was making a move with a rifle.

[UNK]

The biggest takeaway right now is people are getting charged for hitting the road blockers. I don't think it'll be a fun trial for the prosecutor, personally, but that's going to be cold comfort to the people being criminally charged, especially when protesters are *CLEARLY* jumping up on the hood of the vehicle.

My opinion is that at the least they are committing obstruction of traffic, a misdemeanor locally. An argument could be made for criminal confinement, but that's historically been an uphill battle. If the car can't be left where it's at safely if you were to exit, that's in your favor. If the car was not yet mobile and can be left there (ie, in a parking spot) then the prosecutor locally has argued you can't confine a vehicle and the owner/occupant was free to leave. That has *not* applied when the vehicle would be in danger if left, such as a repo man's truck in an irate customer's driveway. So a lot of context matters.

Except now, when politics may matter more.

How is threat viewed if there are firearms visible. How is it viewed if a person has their hand on a holstered weapon.

[UNK]

The biggest takeaway right now is people are getting charged for hitting the road blockers. I don't think it'll be a fun trial for the prosecutor, personally, but that's going to be cold comfort to the people being criminally charged, especially when protesters are *CLEARLY* jumping up on the hood of the vehicle.

My opinion is that at the least they are committing obstruction of traffic, a misdemeanor locally. An argument could be made for criminal confinement, but that's historically been an uphill battle. If the car can't be left where it's at safely if you were to exit, that's in your favor. If the car was not yet mobile and can be left there (ie, in a parking spot) then the prosecutor locally has argued you can't confine a vehicle and the owner/occupant was free to leave. That has *not* applied when the vehicle would be in danger if left, such as a repo man's truck in an irate customer's driveway. So a lot of context matters.

Except now, when politics may matter more.

So if a person finds their self in this situation call 911 and sit it out is the best option?
If my assumption that the guy in the vest has his hand on a gun does that change the options?

[5pins]

The fact they had weapons visible and indicated the willingness to use them in order to prevent someone from leaving tells me he was reasonably in fear of his life and therefore justified in his actions. Them shooting at him as he was leaving was just icing on the cake in his defense.

[beenalongtime]

If the prosecutor is thinking of any other office/job, I expect they will waste taxpayer money and seek an inditement. While I think their also should be a charge on the other side for attempted kidnapping (restricting movement, the firearm pointed at his vehicle) if the prior.
The video's aren't the greatest, and while one video makes it appear that he drove into that guy before the first shot, another makes it look the later. Then with the climate, I would certainly think I would want a change of venue.

[blues]

If I were in a situation with one or multiple armed adversaries visible and intent on stopping my vehicle and accosting me, I'd be inclined to "didi" on out of the location via any route available.

A competent attorney will be able to speak to his client's state of mind and reasonable fear of grave bodily harm or death.

[Totem Polar]

Second video further down in the OP link...



https://youtu.be/2LDDfPSvD3s

Quoted for context. You don’t have to be the best student that Gavin DeBecker ever had in class to see that panther vest guy is throwing cues at the driver that it’s time to leave.

That other trippy protestor dude is mainly guilty of trying to write blockade checks that his skeletal system couldn’t cash. Maybe he won’t do that next time.

I’d say that this one panned out ok, because the driver fled the scene, and nobody got shot.

[Balisong]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqnADg0UQxI

Wow. I think I just watched that clip 20 times in a row.

I'm not sure what that says about me, but I'm ok with it.

[RoyGBiv]

The free people of Lansing....



https://youtu.be/9hawV-yThN0

[ranger]

So if a person finds their self in this situation call 911 and sit it out is the best option?
If my assumption that the guy in the vest has his hand on a gun does that change the options?

Calling 911 won’t work well in Atlanta right now when calls are not being responded to and police are effectively not on the job. Seems to suggest citizens in Atlanta are on their own.

[TAZ]

Calling 911 won’t work well in Atlanta right now when calls are not being responded to and police are effectively not on the job. Seems to suggest citizens in Atlanta are on their own.

Might not get a LEO response, but you’re on record expressing serious concern for your safety from a man with a gun in the street blocking traffic. Unless they stop recording 911 calls to cya that is.

[ranger]

There is nothing in Atlanta worth my life. Will be interesting to see how many people decide to keep their luxury condos or homes in Atlanta vs take their money and leave. Covid19 proved you can work remote so why pay high taxes and put up with the current challenges. Hard to stroll to the most trendy restaurants when they are closed.

[ralph]

There is nothing in Atlanta worth my life. Will be interesting to see how many people decide to keep their luxury condos or homes in Atlanta vs take their money and leave. Covid19 proved you can work remote so why pay high taxes and put up with the current challenges. Hard to stroll to the most trendy restaurants when they are closed.

Yup, Atlanta, Seattle, and other shithole cities are examples of soon to be Detroit’s...People, and business will leave in droves, and parts of the city will look like a war zone. All of this due to decades of Democratic “leadership”

[RevolverRob]

This is bad news for everyone involved if these things continue to happen.

Prosecution of these things is going to become very difficult overall and the overwhelming video evidence indicating that people are fucking crazy and blocking the street and armed with guns - isn't going to make it easier.

Here's my thought -

If you don't have one...buy a dash camera (I don't have one and that is getting fixed...in about ten minutes).

And I'm seriously trying to decide which bumper for the front of the FJ...

[blues]

The free people of Lansing....



https://youtu.be/9hawV-yThN0


I'm unmoved...

[Trooper224]

The fact they had weapons visible and indicated the willingness to use them in order to prevent someone from leaving tells me he was reasonably in fear of his life and therefore justified in his actions. Them shooting at him as he was leaving was just icing on the cake in his defense.

That's the strategy I'd use as a defense attorney.

[Trooper224]

I'm unmoved...

They really showed Lansing.

[blues]

They really showed Lansing.

Yes, it was an impressive display of both might and rapier sharp political reasoning.

[LOKNLOD]

It’s a matter of time before sumdood who’s read a few too many truck gun posts decides its go time and unloads on some group of these people.

“This dog is vicious!”
Poke poke poke pinch pull poke
“Ouch he bit me, see I told you he’s vicious!”

None of the people want to be the one that gets bit, but they all want to poke, and hope someone else gets bit to prove their point.

[BehindBlueI's]

How about one of the "protesters" pointing a rifle at the car?

Drivers lawyer seems to indicate one of the people outside was making a move with a rifle.


How is threat viewed if there are firearms visible. How is it viewed if a person has their hand on a holstered weapon.

Pointing a rifle becomes the issue. Obstructed traffic isn't the main course any longer, it's a contributing factor.

Being in traffic changes nothing to the usual metric of using force or lethal force. It's just another factor to consider.

[Hambo]

One small step for mobs, one giant leap toward a failed state.

[Rick R]

Normally I would write something, but the news clip makes it pretty cut and dry in my opinion. The IQ of the "protester" is laughable, I think he might be high?

https://www.cbs46.com/news/atlanta-protester-hit-by-man-in-his-car-caught-on-camera/article_ad196904-b33b-11ea-8c79-efc4435557ca.html


We need something similar to “Stand your ground” or “Castle Doctrine” clarifying that protesting by taking car loads of people hostage to your political demonstration is in fact voluntarily becoming an organic speedbump.

[littlejerry]

It’s a matter of time before sumdood who’s read a few too many truck gun posts decides its go time and unloads on some group of these people.

“This dog is vicious!”
Poke poke poke pinch pull poke
“Ouch he bit me, see I told you he’s vicious!”

None of the people want to be the one that gets bit, but they all want to poke, and hope someone else gets bit to prove their point.

This unfortunately is my nightmare gun control scenario. Some dude gets stopped in the middle of one of these, pulls out his braced PSA 10.5 with a binary trigger, and engraved dust cover and manages to drop a half dozen or so people. Justified or not, the ensuing shit storm will be bad for everyone, and it'll drive the gun control debate.

This is probably also CNN's wet dream.

[camel]

I think ppl have to realize that stuff is messed up right now and getting caught in untoward instances might be a fact of life. Lots of people who can own guns are out there and do not act Like a polite person has the right to freedom of way because of there political views or there feelings. Everybody wants to make a statement but nobody wants to roll the dice.

[Trooper224]

Regarding the drivers decision making: he felt there was a threat and thus armed himself with his rifle before proceeding on. If he legitimately felt threatened, did he have the opportunity to simply turn his vehicle around, or was he forced to proceed?

[LittleLebowski]

Regarding the drivers decision making: he felt there was a threat and thus armed himself with his rifle before proceeding on. If he legitimately felt threatened, did he have the opportunity to simply turn his vehicle around, or was he forced to proceed?

I am thinking lack of training and lack of mindset.

[Borderland]

This is bad news for everyone involved if these things continue to happen.

Prosecution of these things is going to become very difficult overall and the overwhelming video evidence indicating that people are fucking crazy and blocking the street and armed with guns - isn't going to make it easier.

Here's my thought -

If you don't have one...buy a dash camera (I don't have one and that is getting fixed...in about ten minutes).

And I'm seriously trying to decide which bumper for the front of the FJ...

Summer just started. I expect this will continue at least thru the summer. I've been anticipating this breakdown of order in the larger cities for awhile now. When cops walk off of the job and the neighborhoods are taken over by armed groups, who would like nothing better than to go toe to toe with police and anyone else who disagrees with their tactics to prove a point, there's going to be some carnage. It may well be the beginnings of a very large armed revolt in the inner cities. This happened in CA in the 60's with the Black Panthers but that was small potatoes compared to what we're starting to see now. The signs are all there. People are going to start moving out of the cities in mass. Who wants to live like that?

[camel]

I am thinking lack of training and lack of mindset.

Most people haven’t dealt with civil unrest and bullshit in America.

[RevolverRob]

We need something similar to “Stand your ground” or “Castle Doctrine” clarifying that protesting by taking car loads of people hostage to your political demonstration is in fact voluntarily becoming an organic speedbump.

In theory, some states have that. Where Stand Your Ground applies to anywhere you have a legal right to be (which is most states). Some further distinguish that a personal vehicle is placed under a Castle Doctrine.

Georgia is a SYG state and I fully expect they no jury is going to find this individual guilty. I doubt you could find 12 people who think that the actions were unreasonable.

That said, I think about Clint Smith when I see these things (i.e., getting out and getting a gun, instead of driving through) - “Drive or shoot, but don’t do both!”

Given a choice between a big iron under my right foot or a big iron on my hip - I’m opting for the foot. In fact...that’s my general philosophy beat feet...literally or metaphorically - it don’t matter.

[Rick R]

In theory, some states have that. Where Stand Your Ground applies to anywhere you have a legal right to be (which is most states). Some further distinguish that a personal vehicle is placed under a Castle Doctrine.

Georgia is a SYG state and I fully expect they no jury is going to find this individual guilty. I doubt you could find 12 people who think that the actions were unreasonable.

Rick opines : But first he’s going to be out $20,000 in legal fees, giving him a costly pyrrhic victory

That said, I think about Clint Smith when I see these things (i.e., getting out and getting a gun, instead of driving through) - “Drive or shoot, but don’t do both!”

Probably a good idea to at least act in fear for your life

Given a choice between a big iron under my right foot or a big iron on my hip - I’m opting for the foot. In fact...that’s my general philosophy beat feet...literally or metaphorically - it don’t matter.

One Instructor at an officer survival school I attended pointed out that a vehicle moving 30mph generates 350,000 fpe. Kinda makes the 5.56 seem irrelevant

All in all, I’m thinking a camera and reinforced bumper on the Tacoma might be a good investment this summer.

[Trooper224]

I am thinking lack of training and lack of mindset.


I think you're being kind.

[Borderland]

In theory, some states have that. Where Stand Your Ground applies to anywhere you have a legal right to be (which is most states). Some further distinguish that a personal vehicle is placed under a Castle Doctrine.

Georgia is a SYG state and I fully expect they no jury is going to find this individual guilty. I doubt you could find 12 people who think that the actions were unreasonable.

That said, I think about Clint Smith when I see these things (i.e., getting out and getting a gun, instead of driving through) - “Drive or shoot, but don’t do both!”

Given a choice between a big iron under my right foot or a big iron on my hip - I’m opting for the foot. In fact...that’s my general philosophy beat feet...literally or metaphorically - it don’t matter.

Marty Robins fan?

[RevolverRob]

All in all, I’m thinking a camera and reinforced bumper on the Tacoma might be a good investment this summer.

You and me both. Well, FJ Cruiser for me - but same thing.

I'm looking at a MetalTech 4x4 with the Bash Plate...

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-urk9oiq56p/products/1478/images/11933/MT-GSJ-2306_10__69325.1592411598.1280.1280.jpg


Marty Robins fan?

Hell yea, man. I have multiple albums on vinyl and his Cowboy Ballads album on my iPod (well phone, whatever you know what I mean).

I grew up on pre-1975 music, radio shows, and classic television. It's why I'm an 'original hipster' who liked that stuff before it was cool (again)...because I grew up with a dad who was alive when it was cool the first time and shared it with me.

When your dad is nearly 41 when you're born...you end up with a radical departure of pop culture from the other kids your age, whose parents are in their 20s or early 30s. Like my best friend growing up, his dad is nearly 20 years younger than my dad. So he grew up on AC/DC, Metallica, Guns 'N Roses, Mork and Mindy, Three's Company, and Cheers. I grew up on Marty Robbins, Johnny Cash, Patsy Cline, The Everly Brothers, I Love Lucy, Dragnet, and Adam 12.

[shane45]

Seems the common thread in these vids is getting guns pointed at you before any deadly force justification.

[BehindBlueI's]

In theory, some states have that. Where Stand Your Ground applies to anywhere you have a legal right to be (which is most states). Some further distinguish that a personal vehicle is placed under a Castle Doctrine.


An occupied vehicle is treated the same as a residence in Indiana.


if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle...

Note attack on, not simply obstruction of.


All in all, I’m thinking a camera and reinforced bumper on the Tacoma might be a good investment this summer.

Funny, that's what I said in the NVG thread. A pre-runner bumper is probably more useful then a truck gun or NVGs at this point. And a traffic app and the ability to turn around probably beats all of them..

[Caballoflaco]

I think you're being kind.

That dude was running on 100 octane ethanol free emotion. Or maybe he was just vapor locked in stupid.

Made emotional by scary group of armed people. Exits car, leaves the car running and the drivers side door open. Retrieves rifle from trunk and walks to the front passenger side door which he opens to place his rifle in the vehicle. He then walks all the way back around the back of his car so he can get to the drivers seat. I kept thinking to myself “hey! free car and gun!” while he was making that long ass walk.

While I don’t personally have a problem with him hitting the protestor I think the rest of the video is a case study in what not to do if you find yourself in a similar situation. That includes freaking out and screaming at protestors and other drivers.

[XXXsilverXXX]

The free people of Lansing....



https://youtu.be/9hawV-yThN0

O hey, half a mile away from my wife’s work 🙄
Fucking shit I leave Florida crazy to end up with Michigan Crazy...

[Borderland]

You and me both. Well, FJ Cruiser for me - but same thing.

I'm looking at a MetalTech 4x4 with the Bash Plate...

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-urk9oiq56p/products/1478/images/11933/MT-GSJ-2306_10__69325.1592411598.1280.1280.jpg



Hell yea, man. I have multiple albums on vinyl and his Cowboy Ballads album on my iPod (well phone, whatever you know what I mean).

I grew up on pre-1975 music, radio shows, and classic television. It's why I'm an 'original hipster' who liked that stuff before it was cool (again)...because I grew up with a dad who was alive when it was cool the first time and shared it with me.

When your dad is nearly 41 when you're born...you end up with a radical departure of pop culture from the other kids your age, whose parents are in their 20s or early 30s. Like my best friend growing up, his dad is nearly 20 years younger than my dad. So he grew up on AC/DC, Metallica, Guns 'N Roses, Mork and Mindy, Three's Company, and Cheers. I grew up on Marty Robbins, Johnny Cash, Patsy Cline, The Everly Brothers, I Love Lucy, Dragnet, and Adam 12.

Marty Robins was a rock star in my neck of the woods. I went to HS in AZ in the 60's. Times were tough so all of my money went for gas, ammo and an occasional date night. Not a dime for any albums although a college guy who lived across the road had plenty of vinyl. We played poker, drank his whiskey, and smoked his cigars until sun up. He had some Marty Robins. That guy was a bad influence on me because I still drink whiskey and smoke cigars....and know who Marty Robbins is/was.

FJ's are the Mercedes of the off road crowd. I see a lot of those where i live. You would think they still make those.

OK boomer. :D

[Trooper224]

That dude was running on 100 octane ethanol free emotion. Or maybe he was just vapor locked in stupid.

Made emotional by scary group of armed people. Exits car, leaves the car running and the drivers side door open. Retrieves rifle from trunk and walks to the front passenger side door which he opens to place his rifle in the vehicle. He then walks all the way back around the back of his car so he can get to the drivers seat. I kept thinking to myself “hey! free car and gun!” while he was making that long ass walk.

While I don’t personally have a problem with him hitting the protestor I think the rest of the video is a case study in what not to do if you find yourself in a similar situation. That includes freaking out and screaming at protestors and other drivers.

Let's be honest, we have a lot of people out there with guns who probably don't have the emotional maturity to handle them, anywhere other than a controlled range. I think we're seeing a lot of these folks, who've been living in fantasy apocalypse operatorland, seizing upon this as an opportunity to flash their rod to the sheeple.

Then, you've got Little Johnny Crotchrocket in Lansing. Here's doughnut roll homeboy pointing an AR at him and he wants to argue, when he could have easily turned his bike around and driven off. I recently read an editorial wherein the author described Americans as being masters at "you're not the boss of me". He's right. "Don't tread on me" was 18th century speak for "fuck you". We're seeing the negative side of that ethos combined with a large case of felony stupid.

[Trooper224]

Marty Robins was a rock star in my neck of the woods. I went to HS in AZ in the 60's. Times were tough so all of my money went for gas, ammo and an occasional date night. Not a dime for any albums although a college guy who lived across the road had plenty of vinyl. We played poker, drank his whiskey, and smoked his cigars until sun up. He had some Marty Robins. That guy was a bad influence on me because I still drink whiskey and smoke cigars....and know who Marty Robbins is/was.

FJ's are the Mercedes of the off road crowd. I see a lot of those where i live. You would think they still make those.

OK boomer. :D

I just might have spent hours in my room as a child practicing my fast draw to Marty Robbins, or maybe it was hours alone in my room with Catherine Bach and Dukes of Hazard, but I digress.

[Arbninftry]

One small step for mobs, one giant leap toward a failed state.

it just shows.........I need to do an inventory of my ammo!

[Caballoflaco]

Then, you've got Little Johnny Crotchrocket in Lansing. Here's doughnut roll homeboy pointing an AR at him and he wants to argue, when he could have easily turned his bike around and driven off. I recently read an editorial wherein the author described Americans as being masters at "you're not the boss of me". He's right. "Don't tread on me" was 18th century speak for "fuck you". We're seeing the negative side of that ethos combined with a large case of felony stupid.

Where might I subscribe to your news letter?

And as a dude who commutes on a motorcycle daily that one had me really shaking my head too. Dumbass, he had plenty of time and space to avoid that whole situation.


And to the riders on the forum, if you can’t hang a u turn on a motorcycle within the width of two parking spaces without putting your foot down, go to an empty parking lot and practice until you can. Also, get some practice hopping curbs if you have enough ground clearance and get comfortable with the idea of lane splitting and taking advantage of your bikes small size in relation to cars to avoid situations like this.

[Totem Polar]

I grew up on Marty Robbins, Johnny Cash, Patsy Cline, The Everly Brothers, I Love Lucy, Dragnet, and Adam 12.

We can hang out.

[Totem Polar]

I just might have spent hours in my room as a child practicing my fast draw to Marty Robbins, or maybe it was hours alone in my room with Catherine Bach and Dukes of Hazard, but I digress.

I was going to say “we can hang out, too” but then I thought twice about the daisy duke thing.

We can have a beer. On me.
:)

[Hambo]

I just might have spent hours in my room as a child practicing my fast draw to Marty Robbins

The cover art on "Gunfighter Ballads" practically forced us to work on fast draw.

[shane45]

We all recognise the poor tactics of those caught in these situations. But its probably a lot to ask that average joe public have any clue how to navigate these scenarios. Whats really wrong and should be focused on is that they are being put in these situations to begin with. Those pointing weapons at innocent people should be dealt with to the full extent of the law. A bad action has a tendancy to evoke a bad reaction. I think its just a matter of time before someone takes having a weapon pointed at them as having their threshold being crossed. Who will be at fault? The actor or the reactor?

[5pins]

Regarding the drivers decision making: he felt there was a threat and thus armed himself with his rifle before proceeding on. If he legitimately felt threatened, did he have the opportunity to simply turn his vehicle around, or was he forced to proceed?

To me, it looked like he was blocked from behind and couldn't turn around. I have no idea what happened before the two videos that made him feel a need to get his rifle out of the trunk. It may have been a case of "I have a gun too so don't fuck with me".

I would imagine we will see more of this since no one is trying to stop it from happening. So I wonder how long it will be until they start charging a "donation" for peoople to pass?

[XXXsilverXXX]

To me, it looked like he was blocked from behind and couldn't turn around. I have no idea what happened before the two videos that made him feel a need to get his rifle out of the trunk. It may have been a case of "I have a gun too so don't fuck with me".

I would imagine we will see more of this since no one is trying to stop it from happening. So I wonder how long it will be until they start charging a "donation" for peoople to pass?

Could of been a little of “I have a gun in the trunk and if I have to abandon the car, I don’t want to lose the gun to these people...”

[Beat Trash]

Maybe because I’m older and grumpier. But if I remotely think I might be driving near or get caught up in a civil unrest event, I’d want the gun up front with me. Or at the least, in the back seat within arms reach.

I don’t feel the need to posture in front of a crowd and show off the fact that I have a rifle.

With the window tint that guy had on his car, if that had been my car, no one would have known I had the gun until such time as I decided to let it be known that I was armed.

And if for some reason things degraded to the point I felt the need to abandon my car, it’s probably evolving quick enough that I wouldn’t have time to dick around in my trunk.

[blues]

I just might have spent hours in my room as a child practicing my fast draw to Marty Robbins, or maybe it was hours alone in my room with Catherine Bach and Dukes of Hazard, but I digress.

They are not mutually exclusive.


Is that a pistol in your pocket...?

[TDA]

We all recognise the poor tactics of those caught in these situations. But its probably a lot to ask that average joe public have any clue how to navigate these scenarios. Whats really wrong and should be focused on is that they are being put in these situations to begin with. Those pointing weapons at innocent people should be dealt with to the full extent of the law. A bad action has a tendancy to evoke a bad reaction. I think its just a matter of time before someone takes having a weapon pointed at them as having their threshold being crossed. Who will be at fault? The actor or the reactor?

It sure seems like a lot of effort is being dedicated to advancing the narrative of the Wicked Racist Driver vs the noble Peaceful Protester on foot, for example:

https://slate.com/business/2020/06/george-floyd-protests-cars-ramming-racism.html

I feel like it takes a lot to ask the question "Why is this happening so often, especially now?" and completely fail to mention that the protests consist of pedestrians in the roadway acting the fool. Nope, the reason is jihad/lone wolf/Charlottesville racists. Which is to say, the veracity of media channels is very much in doubt right now, and I'd think in pretty much any circumstance a person in a vehicle can count on being immediately declared the bad guy.

[GyroF-16]

Wow- the Slate article was REALLY slanted.

[Trooper224]

I was going to say “we can hang out, too” but then I thought twice about the daisy duke thing.

We can have a beer. On me.
:)

Just make sure you bring the hand lotion. :)

[Borderland]

Wow- the Slate article was REALLY slanted.

True. I would say the economy of the country is based on one's ability to move their person and cargo from point A to point B without protesters interfering in that process. It's bad enough that we are letting our transportation infrastructure deteriorate well beyond any reasonable effort to restore it, we now have to deal with protesters shutting down an interstate corridor or keeping people who have to drive a vehicle to carry out their normal daily activities to earn a living and take care of their families.

If certain activists want to close certain parts of a city to thru traffic they should probably organize and petition their city council to do that instead of threatening motorists with firearms. I wonder how many of these armed insurgents even vote.

[Totem Polar]

Just make sure you bring the hand lotion. :)

This... would go a long ways to explain both my eyesight and your hair.

:D

[NGP]

You and me both. Well, FJ Cruiser for me - but same thing.

I'm looking at a MetalTech 4x4 with the Bash Plate...

I'd look at getting something custom fab'd, a lot of the off the shelf bumpers (rogue racing, ADD, etc.) I've encountered seem pretty chincy for the cost. A custom job from a decent fabricator will be lighter, stronger, and most likely an equivalent or lesser cost than off the shelf. If your situation dictates you go with an already available option, I'd stick to ARB, WARN, and Ranch Hand. expeditonportal.com and the racedezert.com forums are good resources.

[Joe in PNG]

Wow- the Slate article was REALLY slanted.

That's pretty much the case for all the Slate articles. Or Vox, or NPR...

[blues]

That's pretty much the case for all the Slate articles. Or Vox, or NPR...

All things considered.

(I mean, how often do you get to do an NPR joke?)

[Totem Polar]

All things considered.

(I mean, how often do you get to do an NPR joke?)

Your joke was definitely on point.

[LittleLebowski]

Wow- the Slate article was REALLY slanted.

Well, it's Slate so...

[blues]

Well, it's Slate so...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRvIpn21udysdgqBYbUI8ls0plkUGC HILPEGA&usqp=CAU

"Well, they sound hideous!"

[Welder]

A custom job from a decent fabricator will be lighter, stronger, and most likely an equivalent or lesser cost than off the shelf.

Just a quick note: Myself and people like me can build a strong bumper. My most recent bumper went on a tractor because the factory John Deere grille guards folded up like tin cans when being used on scraper tractors inside of barns. When an 8,000 lb tractor being driven by hired help bounces off of telephone poles set in concrete, stoutness is needed. The one I built has withstood those impacts for 2 years now, no damage to it or the tractor.

So yes to your middle part assuming that fabricator has a basic understanding of force application and how to strengthen against it.

Most likely no to the first and last, though. Strength is ideally derived through design first and brute material thickness second, using the lightest possible components to withstand predicted forces from predicted directions. Seeing something flex, for example, is usually fine. Seeing it yield is not fine. The good factory bumpers likely have gone through some amount of computer design looking at force vectors. I played with some software like this a long time ago, and it's fascinating to put in different material types, cross-sections, and thicknesses and then watch them deform under simulated loads. Your 'decent fabricator' has likely never been exposed to anything like this and will simply use thicker materials in a simpler, less-than-ideal design. The same ends may be accomplished, but it won't be lighter than a design aided by computer simulations. It'll be heavier....possibly much heavier. And if that fabricator hasn't seen many examples of failed structures, it also may be weaker.

Finally, and this is the big one....there's no way that any fabricator can produce, profitably and at a competitive price, on a per-piece basis, anything that is also made on a factory floor. Someone who makes 100 of something has jigs, templates, batch-cut pieces, and the speed borne of repetition. R&D costs are spread over many, many pieces to the point that they approach zero on a by-the-piece basis. But if I'm going to make one part, all of that R&D gets applied to that single part. This can be hours' to days' worth of expense by itself depending on the part....R&D is a billable expense on a single part. There are no jigs, no templates, everything is from scratch. A single part that takes 30 seconds to stamp out and punch on a purpose-built machine (that costs $100k) can take hours to make by hand.

Can someone like me make you a strong bumper? Yes. Specifically to *your* individual needs and for your individual vehicle? Absolutely, and this is where the factories take a second seat to me. Will it be lighter than a Warn or ARB? Very unlikely. Will it be less expensive? Absolutely not. If someone like me can make something for less than a factory can make and sell it for, there's something terribly wrong with the factory or the middleman selling it *OR* I'm not including all of my true costs.

[Suvorov]

I'm unmoved...

How in the hell is it legal for a protester running a illegal roadblock to draw his rifle on the guy on the motorcycle? If I pulled something like that I could kiss my 2A rights, most of my savings and career goodbye!

[5pins]

How in the hell is it legal for a protester running a illegal roadblock to draw his rifle on the guy on the motorcycle? If I pulled something like that I could kiss my 2A rights goodbye?

It's not and he should be arrested but I'm not holding my breath.

[Suvorov]

It's not and he should be arrested but I'm not holding my breath.

He won’t. I guess it’s his white privilege?

[NGP]

Just a quick note: Myself and people like me can build a strong bumper. My most recent bumper went on a tractor because the factory John Deere grille guards folded up like tin cans when being used on scraper tractors inside of barns. When an 8,000 lb tractor being driven by hired help bounces off of telephone poles set in concrete, stoutness is needed. The one I built has withstood those impacts for 2 years now, no damage to it or the tractor.

So yes to your middle part assuming that fabricator has a basic understanding of force application and how to strengthen against it.

Most likely no to the first and last, though. Strength is ideally derived through design first and brute material thickness second, using the lightest possible components to withstand predicted forces from predicted directions. Seeing something flex, for example, is usually fine. Seeing it yield is not fine. The good factory bumpers likely have gone through some amount of computer design looking at force vectors. I played with some software like this a long time ago, and it's fascinating to put in different material types, cross-sections, and thicknesses and then watch them deform under simulated loads. Your 'decent fabricator' has likely never been exposed to anything like this and will simply use thicker materials in a simpler, less-than-ideal design. The same ends may be accomplished, but it won't be lighter than a design aided by computer simulations. It'll be heavier....possibly much heavier. And if that fabricator hasn't seen many examples of failed structures, it also may be weaker.

Finally, and this is the big one....there's no way that any fabricator can produce, profitably and at a competitive price, on a per-piece basis, anything that is also made on a factory floor. Someone who makes 100 of something has jigs, templates, batch-cut pieces, and the speed borne of repetition. R&D costs are spread over many, many pieces to the point that they approach zero on a by-the-piece basis. But if I'm going to make one part, all of that R&D gets applied to that single part. This can be hours' to days' worth of expense by itself depending on the part....R&D is a billable expense on a single part. There are no jigs, no templates, everything is from scratch. A single part that takes 30 seconds to stamp out and punch on a purpose-built machine (that costs $100k) can take hours to make by hand.

Can someone like me make you a strong bumper? Yes. Specifically to *your* individual needs and for your individual vehicle? Absolutely, and this is where the factories take a second seat to me. Will it be lighter than a Warn or ARB? Very unlikely. Will it be less expensive? Absolutely not. If someone like me can make something for less than a factory can make and sell it for, there's something terribly wrong with the factory or the middleman selling it *OR* I'm not including all of my true costs.

To be clear, by decent fabricator, I mean a decent shop, not some backyard bubba with a 115v wirefeed. I even recommended a website where a bunch of trophy truck builders hang out, I assure you they're not unfamiliar with infinite element analysis software.

The reason for my suggestion is that the offroad "armor" market has become just as inundated with junk brands as the glock mod market. Jeeps are the primary driver of this particular market outside of the desert southwest, as such most jeeps while capable never leave the pavement, aftermarket companies understanding this fact have a tendency to build for form over function. Bumpers are not cheap regardless of quality, if you're going to spend the money, and ARB, Warn, or Ranch Hand don't offer something for your particular vehicle I believe a custom job is worth a hard look.

[Welder]

To be clear, by decent fabricator, I mean a decent shop, not some backyard bubba with a 115v wirefeed...

<snip>

Bumpers are not cheap regardless of quality, if you're going to spend the money, and ARB, Warn, or Ranch Hand don't offer something for your particular vehicle I believe a custom job is worth a hard look.

To be clear, I don't think anyone on this planet thinks that a backyard bubba with a 115V wirefeed is a decent fabricator. Except bubba himself.

I'm a fabricator by trade, just to clear the air in case I gave the impression that I'm a backyard bubba with a 110V MIG. I know of what I speak when it comes to metalworking. What I said was correct.

Strength, check. I and guys like me can produce equivalent strength all day long.

Price, NO. We can't compete on price. One man crew or job shop, you're not competing with mass production.

Weight, NO. What me or a decent job shop will build is NOT going to be lighter than a factory-built piece of equivalent strength and design. Unless it's a direct copy. And in that case, you're better off buying from the factory OR starting with a factory-built piece and modifying it to fit your purposes.

I do agree with you that custom work is very often high quality. And there is perceived value in having something that's literally one-of-a-kind; I have customers with plenty of expendable income who use my services because they don't want something out of a Chinese factory or a hillbilly sweatshop in the backwoods somewhere paying $10/hr to meth heads who can squirt metal out of a MIG gun.

So my intent here isn't to slit my own throat or those of guys like me. It's just to dial back the cheaper, lighter, stronger rhetoric to something more realistic. Because I can't tell you how many calls I get to build something that somebody saw in a catalog online, but for just a little less money.....maybe half price so I could make some profit too :rolleyes:

[beenalongtime]

All things considered.

(I mean, how often do you get to do an NPR joke?)

Wait, wait, don't tell me!


To be clear, I don't think anyone on this planet thinks that a backyard bubba with a 115V wirefeed is a decent fabricator. Except bubba himself.


Now I will have this going through my head tonight:

https://youtu.be/wyz_2DEah4o

[theJanitor]

Calling 911 won’t work well in Atlanta right now when calls are not being responded to and police are effectively not on the job. Seems to suggest citizens in Atlanta are on their own.


I don’t know what city this is in, but 911 basically told this lady that they aren’t allowed to help


https://soundcloud.com/conservativechick/durant-9-1-1-call-06132020-2

[5pins]

This Minneapolis neighborhood is so woke, they decided not to call the police. It's not working out well for them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-police.html


Already, that commitment is being challenged. Two weeks ago, dozens of multicolored tents appeared in the neighborhood park. They were brought by homeless people who were displaced during the unrest that gripped the city. The multiracial group of roughly 300 new residents seems to grow larger and more entrenched every day. They do laundry, listen to music and strategize about how to find permanent housing. Some are hampered by mental illness, addiction or both.


Their presence has drawn heavy car traffic into the neighborhood, some from drug dealers. At least two residents have overdosed in the encampment and had to be taken away in ambulances

[5pins]

I don’t know what city this is in, but 911 basically told this lady that they aren’t allowed to help


https://soundcloud.com/conservativechick/durant-9-1-1-call-06132020-2

Fucking unreal.

[fixer]

This Minneapolis neighborhood is so woke, they decided not to call the police. It's not working out well for them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-police.html

People are sick in the facking head.

That is a good read.

[farscott]

This Minneapolis neighborhood is so woke, they decided not to call the police. It's not working out well for them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-police.html


Mitchell Erickson’s fingers began dialing 911 last week before he had a chance to even consider alternatives, when two black teenagers who looked to be 15, at most, cornered him outside his home a block away from the park. One of the boys pointed a gun at Mr. Erickson’s chest, demanding his car keys. Flustered, Mr. Erickson handed over a set, but it turned out to be house keys. The teenagers got frustrated and ran off, then stole a different car down the street.

Mr. Erickson said later that he would not cooperate with prosecutors in a case against the boys. After the altercation, he realized that if there was anything he wanted, it was to offer them help. But he still felt it had been right to call the authorities because there was a gun involved.

Two days after an initial conversation, his position had evolved. “Been thinking more about it,” he wrote in a text message. “I regret calling the police. It was my instinct but I wish it hadn’t been. I put those boys in danger of death by calling the cops.”

If that is someone's mindset, even after attempted robbery, that person is not a rational thinker. It is not okay for people to point guns at him, but police "put those boys in danger of death". Rational people think the boys' action is what put them in "danger of death". Therefore, there will be no reasoning with Mr. Erickson.

There is no way this experiment ends well.

[LittleLebowski]

This Minneapolis neighborhood is so woke, they decided not to call the police. It's not working out well for them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-police.html

I feel sorry for their kids, not them.

[the Schwartz]

Mitchell Erickson’s fingers began dialing 911 last week before he had a chance to even consider alternatives, when two black teenagers who looked to be 15, at most, cornered him outside his home a block away from the park. One of the boys pointed a gun at Mr. Erickson’s chest, demanding his car keys. Flustered, Mr. Erickson handed over a set, but it turned out to be house keys. The teenagers got frustrated and ran off, then stole a different car down the street.

Mr. Erickson said later that he would not cooperate with prosecutors in a case against the boys. After the altercation, he realized that if there was anything he wanted, it was to offer them help. But he still felt it had been right to call the authorities because there was a gun involved.

Two days after an initial conversation, his position had evolved. “Been thinking more about it,” he wrote in a text message. “I regret calling the police. It was my instinct but I wish it hadn’t been. I put those boys in danger of death by calling the cops.”

Finally, now, I get it. My long-standing misunderstanding of the ''new-speak" term 'woke' has been cleared up by the cited article: woke = brain-damaged

We cannot save these people from themselves and I am not sure that such a course of action would be worth the effort if we could. These folks deserve whatever they ''self-inflict''.

[5pins]

I only have one question for the people that refuse to call 911. What's your address?

[NGP]

To be clear, I don't think anyone on this planet thinks that a backyard bubba with a 115V wirefeed is a decent fabricator. Except bubba himself.

I'm a fabricator by trade, just to clear the air in case I gave the impression that I'm a backyard bubba with a 110V MIG. I know of what I speak when it comes to metalworking. What I said was correct.

Strength, check. I and guys like me can produce equivalent strength all day long.

Price, NO. We can't compete on price. One man crew or job shop, you're not competing with mass production.

Weight, NO. What me or a decent job shop will build is NOT going to be lighter than a factory-built piece of equivalent strength and design. Unless it's a direct copy. And in that case, you're better off buying from the factory OR starting with a factory-built piece and modifying it to fit your purposes.

I do agree with you that custom work is very often high quality. And there is perceived value in having something that's literally one-of-a-kind; I have customers with plenty of expendable income who use my services because they don't want something out of a Chinese factory or a hillbilly sweatshop in the backwoods somewhere paying $10/hr to meth heads who can squirt metal out of a MIG gun.

So my intent here isn't to slit my own throat or those of guys like me. It's just to dial back the cheaper, lighter, stronger rhetoric to something more realistic. Because I can't tell you how many calls I get to build something that somebody saw in a catalog online, but for just a little less money.....maybe half price so I could make some profit too :rolleyes:

I won't detract from the topic at hand any more than I already have, if you'd like to start another thread on the subject, I'd be happy to participate.

[Suvorov]

If that is someone's mindset, even after attempted robbery, that person is not a rational thinker. It is not okay for people to point guns at him, but police "put those boys in danger of death". Rational people think the boys' action is what put them in "danger of death". Therefore, there will be no reasoning with Mr. Erickson.

There is no way this experiment ends well.


Finally, now, I get it. My long-standing misunderstanding of the ''new-speak" term 'woke' has been cleared up by the cited article: woke = brain-damaged

We cannot save these people from themselves and I am not sure that such a course of action would be worth the effort if we could. These folks deserve whatever they ''self-inflict''.


I'm sure Mr. Erickson's Viking ancestors are quite proud of him. :rolleyes:

Valhalla weeps!