Feel like I'm struggling...or are my expectations too high?

[nirol]

Hi All,
I was hoping to get some input and opinions on my plight to become a better shooter. I understand that everyone is different, and there are no easy answers, but I sure would appreciate any feedback.

History:
I now have maybe 4-5k rounds downrange in my lifetime, the majority coming in the last 6 months as I've really tried to practice more (more dry-fire too!). I know that I need a *lot* more practice and experience (adding 500-1k rounds per month this summer), but at the same time want to make sure I'm training the right way and maximizing the learning.

The results:
I'm going to leave out my sig, and my 1911 because I have minimal trigger time on them, and am frankly, awful.

The majority of my rounds are with my m&p full size with an apex sear, and recently 500 rounds with my new PPQ. When I'm shooting my very best, while being as deliberate as possible, I will put ~5-6 out of ten rounds on a 3x5 index card at 10 yards. At 25 yards, I'm lucky to hit a silhouette target with half of my shots.

My question:
This doesn't seem very good to me. Am I being too hard on myself or is this indeed, fairly poor, and I should be concerned about poor mechanics?

What I work on: (I feel like I do in golf, thinking about so many things that I can get overwhelmed)

-Not staging the trigger, focusing on a straight, even trigger pull
-Focusing on the front sight/good sight picture
-Grip: Watched a number of people, videos. I think it mimics the 'right way' for the most part.
-Grip pressure...50-50, 60-40 etc...and trying not to milk it while shooting by gripping firm. Too hard, and I lose dexterity in my trigger finger so I try for a happy medium. (I use thumbs forwards, try to grip as much of the pistol as possible, high on the 'beavertail,' canted left hand down a bit to get the heel of my hand high on the grip)
-Various DotW
-Stance...slightly bent knees, feet shoulder width apart, arms not quite locked, but straight...not creating too much tension
-Watch, observe, read as much as I can


Things I've noticed that might be bad:
-Every single dummy round I ever put in the mag, I jerk down on it. I've tried a number of things that I've read/seen to fix this, but I always seem to do it. I stop, do 10 dry fires. Or 'Dump' a mag quickly into the berm and try to keep eyes open while doing it. I've also read posts that lead me to believe some of this is natural, and OK if done after the round has left the barrel...not sure which I'm doing (before or after--I don't always miss low)...but I do know that it is always present. I like the dummy round idea for identifying...but I feel like I've ID'd it to death...none of the drills seem to fix it...if it needs fixed?
-My long, gangly fingers make trigger finger placement a constant mystery. I've read 'always pad' and also that the knuckle is OK. For comfort, I would place the trigger on the pad between my first and second knuckle...but I realize this is way too much...so I typically go with the 1st knuckle...the pad just feel like so much of my finger is away from the gun, and kinda like I'm pushing the gun maybe?
-Close my left eye, use right eye, right handed shooter...both eyes open I just don't seem to see the sight very well


Am I just in a position where I need to shoot, shoot, shoot to get better? Or am I doing a disservices by continually shooting without taking more lessons (I've taken two, 3 hour courses) or working on better mechanics first? I know I should really only compete/push myself...but I can't help but get a bit discouraged when I can finally drag a friend to the range that never wants to shoot, and they get bored after 50 rounds, yet seem at least as accurate, but with more speed, or flat out more accurate.

I'm not really discouraged by being a Novice IDPA shooter either as I don't expect to score well there, yet. But I'd hoped that I would have seen some improvement over the last couple thousand rounds when shooting by myself, no pressure, and while taking ample time. Instead, I seem to be really consistent with my 10 and 25 yard performance (or lack thereof).

Is it unrealistic at this point to expect to be able to hit all ten in the 3x5 card at ten yards with all the time in the world?

Sorry for the novel...

[Odin Bravo One]

You set your expectations, so only you can really decide if they are too high.

Though, what I take from reading your post is that you could probably benefit greatly from a knowledgeable, experienced, professional trainer. I would suggest a 2 or 3 day level 1/basic type program to start with. In addition to the instruction and professional critiques, you will get pages of notes and drills to practice on your own, not to mention meeting like minded folks that could be become some great shooting buddies/informal coaches for after the course concludes and you are practicing on your own. It is very difficult to self-diagnose issues when you are still working on mastery of the fundamentals.

Since you didn't fill in your location information, I have no idea where you are, so I cannot make suggestions or recommend trainers in your area.

Just know that these types of courses can be expensive (relative term of course). Plan on at least $750-$800 for a 3 day course tuition, and usually between 1200-2000k rounds of factory ammunition. Some trainers may allow re-loaded ammo, but many do not as the non-stop issues that come from reloads distract from training. Gas, lodging, days off work, meals, etc can easily bring a 3 day course total cost to upwards of $1500+.

However, in most cases, it is well worth the cost when you consider everything you get. I still take Level I and basic level 2 or 3 day courses and I consider it time and money well spent every time.

[LOKNLOD]

Sean's advice is excellent. If you'll share your general location, folks here can help you hook up with someone close by. Even a few hours with a good coach could help get you on track.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Fellow new shooter, with probably similar experience.


Take a class with a good instructor.
Start tracking your performance.
Dry fire and more dry fire.

[JConn]

Training is of course the best answer and will yield the best results. SeanM is someone to listen to. Me, maybe not so much, but I may have a suggestion. With your trigger pull, you say you are focusing on a straight even trigger pull. Try to make sure you are using constant pressure, instead of trying to make the trigger move at the same speed throughout its travel. The trigger may stop moving, but as long as pressure continues to build I believe that is still proper form. If you try to rush though the trigger pull on some of these pistols that have a "glass rod" type stage to them like a glock or m&p (I have never fired a PPQ), you will end up disrupting your sights. At least that has been my experience. I try to ensure that the amount of pressure my finger exerts on the trigger is only the amount needed to move it, any excess energy just gets transfered to the gun, moving your sights.

[ford.304]

I'll second the "see a real trainer" advice. You've already spent as much on ammo as you would on a good class, and probably gotten less skill advancement for it.

All I have to say other than that, is if you're having problems with your accuracy in slow fire, stop worrying about the rest of your technique. For "can I hit a 3x5 card at 10 yards" your grip, stance, etc do not matter so much -- distractions *do*. Hard focus on the front sight, make sure your posts are perfectly lined up, and then don't move them during a smooth trigger pull. That's it.

No time limits, put your gun down and rest, and just *focus* on making that one shot, like there's no other shot in the world. Once you can do that, you can worry about the rest.

[JeffJ]

I will also recommend a good trainer

It sounds like you have "pretty good" accuracy at 10 yards and then completly fall apart at 25 - I've had the same problem and *for me* I was using more of an intermideate focus and shooting well at shorter distances - it didn't work at further distances, I really had to discover what a hard front sight focus was and use that at further distances.

It helped me to do walk back drills one yard at a time and really be aware of what was happening as I moved further back

Of course, none of that helps if you don't have good fundamentals and that is where a good instructor can save you time, money, and headaches.

[SamuelBLong]

I also concur with Sean and the others about taking a class from a reputable instructor or coach. Your fundamentals will improve drastically when someone can watch everything going on and give you feedback.

When I first was starting out, I too over thought things as I was learning how to shoot tiny groups at distance. To overcome this I came up with a rigid checklist / pre shot routine that I would follow, starting with my feet and ending with my grip and sight alignment. Your conscious effort can really only focus on one thing at a time, so having a checklist is a good way to let you work down to the one thing that will help you the most - not disturbing the sights as you break the shot.

Try this routine next time:

Feel your hands solidly gripping the gun.
Align the sights, and drive them to the target.
Concentrate on not disturbing your alignment as you smoothly break the shot.

Another thing you're probably concerned about, and correct me if I'm wrong, is trying to compensate for the amout of wobble / sway when shooting for accuracy at distance. Theres nothing you can do about it; We all want to hit that one particular spot on the target, waiting for everything to be perfect...for the sights to stop moving on the target. I struggled with it for a while, but after taking with Brian Enos I got a completely different way of thinking about it. Brian advocated to me to think of the gun as 100% stable, and that the target was floating around downrange. Since I couldn't control the movement, all I could do was concentrate on not disturbing the sights and fire the best shot I could. My 25 yd group size dropped to 1/8th the size.

The wall drill is an excellent dry fire drill to practice all of this, as you don't get distracted by a target. It's something that I practice every day 2H, SHO and WHO.

Tape over the non dominant eye's lens on your shooting classes with scotch tape. Your non dominant eye will be unable to focus while still allowing light transmission. The tension in your face will dissipate, and given enough time, your brain will learn to ignore information from that eye when you don't have glasses on.

As for your dummy round practice problem, it could be a flinch, it could be recoil management being executed. A good trainer should easily be able to tell the difference, but it's hard to say without observing you.

[nirol]

Thanks for all of the advice thus far guys!

I will continue to keep an eye open for good training. I've been a bit leery since I don't really know anybody that has taken courses that they'd recommend. My previous two sessions would probably not constitute the quality of training that you guys are recommending...so I'll keep looking. I do see a fair amount of training offered, but vetting out the quality has been the more difficult part vs scheduling/funding etc.

[Sheep Have Wool]

I will continue to keep an eye open for good training. I've been a bit leery since I don't really know anybody that has taken courses that they'd recommend. My previous two sessions would probably not constitute the quality of training that you guys are recommending...so I'll keep looking. I do see a fair amount of training offered, but vetting out the quality has been the more difficult part vs scheduling/funding etc.

You're certainly right that not all of the training is worth the money. I'm not sure if you have a Vickers Shooting Method regional instructor in the area - it looks like you don't (http://vickerstactical.com/larry-vickers-regional-endorsed-instructors/) - but you might find someone at the range who seems to be performing at a high level, and ask them about local trainers they recommend. Someone here might be able to suggest a quality trainer as well, which worked for me (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4077-I-m-getting-my-turtleneck-I-m-not-learning-how-to-shoot-a-pistol-in-this!&p=71467&viewfull=1#post71467).

One final suggestion might be to attend a local IDPA/USPSA match (even if just as a spectator), and ask the top shooters there whom they recommend in the area.

[LOKNLOD]

Isn't Tam around the Indianapolis area? Perhaps she knows someone. Todd's done several Indianapolis classes I think, there's probably a decent crew of locals there that can point him in the right direction.

[Kimura]

Hi All,
I was hoping to get some input and opinions on my plight to become a better shooter. I understand that everyone is different, and there are no easy answers, but I sure would appreciate any feedback.

History:
I now have maybe 4-5k rounds downrange in my lifetime, the majority coming in the last 6 months as I've really tried to practice more (more dry-fire too!). I know that I need a *lot* more practice and experience (adding 500-1k rounds per month this summer), but at the same time want to make sure I'm training the right way and maximizing the learning.

The results:
I'm going to leave out my sig, and my 1911 because I have minimal trigger time on them, and am frankly, awful.

The majority of my rounds are with my m&p full size with an apex sear, and recently 500 rounds with my new PPQ. When I'm shooting my very best, while being as deliberate as possible, I will put ~5-6 out of ten rounds on a 3x5 index card at 10 yards. At 25 yards, I'm lucky to hit a silhouette target with half of my shots.

My question:
This doesn't seem very good to me. Am I being too hard on myself or is this indeed, fairly poor, and I should be concerned about poor mechanics?

What I work on: (I feel like I do in golf, thinking about so many things that I can get overwhelmed)

-Not staging the trigger, focusing on a straight, even trigger pull
-Focusing on the front sight/good sight picture
-Grip: Watched a number of people, videos. I think it mimics the 'right way' for the most part.
-Grip pressure...50-50, 60-40 etc...and trying not to milk it while shooting by gripping firm. Too hard, and I lose dexterity in my trigger finger so I try for a happy medium. (I use thumbs forwards, try to grip as much of the pistol as possible, high on the 'beavertail,' canted left hand down a bit to get the heel of my hand high on the grip)
-Various DotW
-Stance...slightly bent knees, feet shoulder width apart, arms not quite locked, but straight...not creating too much tension
-Watch, observe, read as much as I can


Things I've noticed that might be bad:
-Every single dummy round I ever put in the mag, I jerk down on it. I've tried a number of things that I've read/seen to fix this, but I always seem to do it. I stop, do 10 dry fires. Or 'Dump' a mag quickly into the berm and try to keep eyes open while doing it. I've also read posts that lead me to believe some of this is natural, and OK if done after the round has left the barrel...not sure which I'm doing (before or after--I don't always miss low)...but I do know that it is always present. I like the dummy round idea for identifying...but I feel like I've ID'd it to death...none of the drills seem to fix it...if it needs fixed?
-My long, gangly fingers make trigger finger placement a constant mystery. I've read 'always pad' and also that the knuckle is OK. For comfort, I would place the trigger on the pad between my first and second knuckle...but I realize this is way too much...so I typically go with the 1st knuckle...the pad just feel like so much of my finger is away from the gun, and kinda like I'm pushing the gun maybe?
-Close my left eye, use right eye, right handed shooter...both eyes open I just don't seem to see the sight very well


Am I just in a position where I need to shoot, shoot, shoot to get better? Or am I doing a disservices by continually shooting without taking more lessons (I've taken two, 3 hour courses) or working on better mechanics first? I know I should really only compete/push myself...but I can't help but get a bit discouraged when I can finally drag a friend to the range that never wants to shoot, and they get bored after 50 rounds, yet seem at least as accurate, but with more speed, or flat out more accurate.

I'm not really discouraged by being a Novice IDPA shooter either as I don't expect to score well there, yet. But I'd hoped that I would have seen some improvement over the last couple thousand rounds when shooting by myself, no pressure, and while taking ample time. Instead, I seem to be really consistent with my 10 and 25 yard performance (or lack thereof).

Is it unrealistic at this point to expect to be able to hit all ten in the 3x5 card at ten yards with all the time in the world?

Sorry for the novel...

Good advice already about getting some training, tracking your progress. One thing that helped me a lot was having a plan before I went to the range. So there are certain things I want to work on when I'm there. For a quality instructor, I think LAV still gives a basic handgun class once in a while, but those are in NC. Find out who instructs at your local police academy. Those guys are use to taking brand new shooters from zero to pass the qual. That might be a good choice.

And you're not the only one struggling to get better. First time, I shot the IHack drill was just embarrassing. Shooting three 2" dots from the draw was just a train wreck for me and I refused to shoot it from the ready position (sorry Todd, but that's how I learn). Those 2" dots don't look small, but once the timer goes off and the draw etc, they just seem to be much smaller. Now, I've done it a few more times since it was posted as the Drill of the Week and it's gotten considerably better. I've cleaned it a few times, but don't do so consistently. However considering my original score, which I don't remember, but was really, really low; it's progressing along. Normally I'll run somewhere between 6-8 of 9. Again, others do better and are faster, but I'm getting there.

Even though I've had some training, I really enjoy classes as I learn things that make me better. I want to take AFHF next time it's in my area and Pat McNamara's TAPS class next time it's here. I'm not trying to be the best shooter or fastest shooter in the class; I'm trying to walk away a better shooter than when I started it. That's really the goal to me. Hope that's helpful for you.

[Al T.]

I would have seen some improvement over the last couple thousand rounds when shooting by myself

Hate to be ugly here, but quit shooting so much. Go to your matches, shoot for recreation if you'd like, but quit shooting so much.

You are exactly where I was at 21. Good guns, good gear, no clue what I was not doing right. Throwing more ammo at the issue will only empty your pockets and leave you with nasty training scars (bad habits) that will cost you more money to over come later.

First, IMHO, get some good coaching from an experienced coach. That you are having issues staying on a target at 25y seems to me that you have not firmly grasped the fundamentals yet. Second, Boone County IN has an apparently wonderful sheriff who sponsors training classes in your area. I'd use your ammo budget to save up for one of those classes.

[nirol]

Hate to be ugly here, but quit shooting so much. Go to your matches, shoot for recreation if you'd like, but quit shooting so much.

You are exactly where I was at 21. Good guns, good gear, no clue what I was not doing right. Throwing more ammo at the issue will only empty your pockets and leave you with nasty training scars (bad habits) that will cost you more money to over come later.

First, IMHO, get some good coaching from an experienced coach. That you are having issues staying on a target at 25y seems to me that you have not firmly grasped the fundamentals yet. Second, Boone County IN has an apparently wonderful sheriff who sponsors training classes in your area. I'd use your ammo budget to save up for one of those classes.Thanks for chiming in! I had no idea there was such a training program in Boone Co. From what I can tell, it is through something called Gun Site...and seems to be a ridiculous bargain at only $650-$950 for 3 full days.

BTW, I went to the range this afternoon to shoot 250 rounds (before I read your quit shooting so much advice..which isn't a bad idea) and I took one shot at my 3x5 card at 25 yards, hit it dead center, retired that distance for the day, and proceeded to shoot the rest at my normal practice of 10 yards. I'd like to think I'm my own 25 yard champion for the day...100% accurate :)

edit: Truth be told, my initial reaction after my single moment of personal glory was actually 'Wow, that's weird' :)

[Carraway]

I'll chime in as a fairly new shooter and give a caveat that, if I say anything that conflicts with an expert, just ignore me.

First, another ditto on finding an instructor.

That said, I personally found that it's best to start slow and concentrate on technique. When I started, I would pick a fairly close (but of course safe) distance and fire a round, paying attention to the sight picture, technique, etc., and see if I hit where I was aiming and, if not, where and why. Then I'd work on making small corrections, one shot at a time. When I felt I was placing shots well and consistently, I'd move further back. And repeat. I found that I was becoming fairly comfortable and consistent this way.

Also, I found that I had to make sure I was paying attention to where each shot was hitting. I realized the temptation to fire 4-5 rounds and a target that already had a few holes (and or holes outside of it) wouldn't really allow me to effectively evaluate and, if needed, correct. With that, I would also work on things like single or double action and the like with the same approach.

I suppose I found I practiced best when taking the same kind of approach I do with learning to play something on a musical instrument: start slow, get it precise and right, then pick it up a little at a time until I have it.

[JAD]

Sheriff Ken Campbell is a very highly thought of instructor, on my short list of people I want to train with. He is a Gunsite adjunct and the class he runs there /is/ Gunsite 250 minus the simulators. You are exceedingly well located.

[Lomshek]

Hi All,


Things I've noticed that might be bad:
-Every single dummy round I ever put in the mag, I jerk down on it. I've tried a number of things that I've read/seen to fix this, but I always seem to do it.
1- I stop, do 10 dry fires.
2- Or 'Dump' a mag quickly into the berm and try to keep eyes open while doing it.


1 - Is a good idea and reminds your finger what to do.

2 - Is a horrible idea and encourages bad trigger habits. Aside from making your finger "sprint" there is nothing gained from shooting "quickly" into the berm. Slow berm shooting to learn sight tracking is not what it sounds like you're referring to.

My suggestion until you can get some quality instruction is to do a LOT of ball and dummy drills. If I'm having troubles I will load more than half the magazine with dummies so I may get 2 or 3 dummies in a row before or after a live round. That continual feedback is really what you need to improve trigger control.

[MDS]

My suggestion until you can get some quality instruction is to do a LOT of ball and dummy drills. If I'm having troubles I will load more than half the magazine with dummies so I may get 2 or 3 dummies in a row before or after a live round. That continual feedback is really what you need to improve trigger control.

Lord knows shooting lots of dummies has helped my shooting! I've shot so many dummies, I lost count. (Wait, I didn't mean it that way...)

Seriously, I bit the bullet (so to speak) and got like 30 quality dummy rounds. I'd load up a mag or 2 with 1 or 2 dummies, then another mag or 2 with about 50/50 dummies, then another mag or 2 with almost all dummies and maybe 1 or 2 live rounds. Did slow-fire accuracy work with those mags, and I'd do 10 perfect dry fires every time a dummy made me flinch. It took a lot of effort to keep focused for a few rounds of this, the dummy rounds aren't cheap, and it was so frustrating when you feel like you've got this flinch licked and then ... DIP! Those 10 dry fires made me feel like Venus, who gave men fire and then pushed a boulder up that mound over and over...

Anyway, after a few range sessions of that, I really did see a ridiculous improvement in my accuracy. I still take dummies to the range with me every time, though I don't use them nearly as often as I should any more.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Anyway, after a few range sessions of that, I really did see a ridiculous improvement in my accuracy. I still take dummies to the range with me every time, though I don't use them nearly as often as I should any more.

Do you just do a tap-rack when you hit them? I'm doing the vast majority of my practice at indoor ranges, and it just seems like a bad idea to chase snap caps all over the floor there.

[MDS]

Do you just do a tap-rack when you hit them? I'm doing the vast majority of my practice at indoor ranges, and it just seems like a bad idea to chase snap caps all over the floor there.

It depends. If the place is packed or I don't feel safe crawling around behind the line, I might decide that it's safer to eject the dummy into the air and catch it. If I'm with a new shooter, I'll actually fully unload the gun every time, so as not to set a bad example - just be careful not to look at the mouth of the magazine so you don't know if the next round is live or dummy. For whatever reason, I can never seem to eject a case carefully on the table without fumbling around something fierce, though, so I never do that any more. Now, and here's my secret to happiness if you have a crappy selection of ranges: I usually go when the place is empty, and I don't mind picking stuff up then, so I usually just tap-rack it and chase the dummies afterward. Importantly, I don't treat it like a malfunction drill! I want to follow through on the sights for a good second or two after every trigger pull, dummy or no. (I have an old 10-round g19 mag that I use for malf practice. ;))

BTW, there's a little bit of blind leading the blind here, I hope you don't take any of this as "the answer." It's just what's worked best for me so far, and Lord knows "worked best for me" doesn't always mean it works very well! I hope you take it as just some ideas of stuff to try and riff off of as you look for what works for you.

Now I gotta finish up this work and see if I can make some range time today. :D

[nirol]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the suggestions and give a mini-update. I especially appreciate being made aware of Sheriff Ken Campbell and his classes. I've been in touch with him, and have a day of private instruction coming up on the calendar here soon.

[JAD]

Awesome. You are going to be light years ahead. You are also going to want to go to Gunsite.