IDPA Scenario Threads...

[_JD_]

So I've been tasked with running IDPA in my area with an established USPSA Club (attended the SO class in Feb, still waiting for the cert. to come in to start the affiliation process) and we're starting to run matches, I'm pretty good at creating "Skills Stages" but am having a tough time with the scenario stages.

I have little to no imagination for "really cool" scenario stages.

I'm also limited on props as I don't yet have a current inventory but we've got all the basics, wall sections, poppers, door ways, barrels, swingers, drop outs, bear traps and the like.

What I need are some good scenario stages, I'm finding a lot of stuff on line and borrowing from other clubs, but if you have any favorite scenario stages, please feel free to share.

[Shokr21]

One of my favorite style of scenario stage is a room clearing scenario. Start off sitting in a chair with the pistol on the end table, you hear a bump (timer) and work your way through a staged house plan.

Another is a scenario that simulates a mugging on a street near your car. It's a surrender start on your knees. As you draw engage two targets at 3yards move to an "alleyway" for cover engage two targets, one of which only has a head shot available due to a noshoot. Then run to your car, where there is target close and 3 other targets at distance.

Basically any scenario can be cheezy or gamerriffic. I like IDPA for the "try" at realism, but it's still just that a try.

[BN]

One of the tricks I use is to look at where you are at any point during your day. Then use the location as a start for a stage design. For instance: pumping gas, going inside to pay for gas, shopping at a stop & rob, walking down a street, walking into the mall, etc. I've heard of people setting the alarm on their watch to random times and when it goes off, just look around and design a stage from your surroundings. Use your imagination and say "what if".

I use barrels for walls and cover a lot of the time. Easy to set up and tear down. I also try to design stages that are easy to administrate. Easy to score and get ready for the next shooter. Lots of circus props and targets are fun to shoot, but can be a hassle to keep running and reset for each shooter.

[BLR]

When I got into USPSA, my local club shot "the classics" - you'd have a tough time distinguishing our matches, informal or formal, from a "Bear Valley" match.

As the club progressed, it became much more elaborate and complicated. A shame really. We hardly do any SSO, much less weak side. We use light bars, cars and all kinds of "props" now. Everyone just wants to go as fast as possible. No shoots are less and less common. So are the movers.

I'd look at variations of el pres. Like an ATM version. Maybe a parking lot Guatemalian. Sitting stages really throw people off. So does going prone, if the membership is capable. It's also fun to bring in a "long gun" and do malf or out of ammo drills. The USMC MEU(SOC) pistol qualification is a wonderfully rich source of scenarios too.

If you are looking for "realistic" stages - I'd suggest going to youtube and looking for police video/surveillance video footage.

[ToddG]

One of the tricks I use is to look at where you are at any point during your day. Then use the location as a start for a stage design. For instance: pumping gas, going inside to pay for gas, shopping at a stop & rob, walking down a street, walking into the mall, etc. I've heard of people setting the alarm on their watch to random times and when it goes off, just look around and design a stage from your surroundings. Use your imagination and say "what if".

That's a great idea, Bill!

[LHS]

One of the most fun stages I recall from an old AZ state match, involved lying on a bed with your gun on the nightstand along with a spare magazine. At the buzzer, you roll out of bed, grab the gun and the spare mag, engage threats in the bedroom, then move to another location and engage threats there. The scenario was you wake up in your room at night with someone there. TCoB, retrieve spare magazine, and address the screams coming from your kid's room down the hall.

One I've thought of but never seen run, is an ATM stage. Think of it as an El Pres shot from an ATM, from retention, with one or two bad guys instead of three.

At a Carolina Cup years ago, they had a stage where you start kneeling with your hands in a bucket of soapy water, as if you were washing your car. At the buzzer, you turn and engage three threats from kneeling.

[ToddG]

There was a stage at the IDPA Nationals years ago where you started lying on the ceiling of an overturned car. :cool:

The inaugural invite-only KSTG match had a stage that began lying face down on the ground beside a Suburban. The scenario was that you stepped out of the car and got conked on the head by a baseball bat wielding gang banger. On the buzzer, you shot a close range target six times (to slide lock) from the ground, then picked up the baseball he supposedly dropped. You used the bat to crush the skull (melon) of one of his accomplices before racing around to the back of the Suburban, reloading your gun, and shooting some more threats. The best part of the stage was the hilarity involved in people trying to hit the melon... with varying degrees of success. :cool:

[LHS]

I remember a stage that had the shooter investigating sounds in his garage. You were supposed to yell "Drop my tools!" before engaging any threats (who were supposedly attacking you with the aforementioned tools). Bob Shimizu kicked in the door to the 'garage' and yelled "Kurt! Drop my beer!" before opening fire. Kurt Von Rice, the match director, about died from laughing.

[ToddG]

Awesome. Kurt ran some absolutely fantastic matches back in the day.

[cclaxton]

1st question: Are you limited to shooting downrange only, or can you shoot to the left and right? (Berms on the sides handle handgun rounds?, Indoor?, Using bullet catchers?, etc.)

The venue/club will limit what you can do.

Use barrels to create "hallways" or "walls." You can also just use a wooden frame made from 2x4's to create windows, car windows, etc. Black plastic sheeting wrapped over 3/4" PVC Pipe frame can also make excellent walls/cover. Once you have enough props built up that will give you a lot more ideas and variety of options. Buy a cheap door at Hardware Store that comes with a frame. Attach 2x2 wood trusses at the bottom of the door frame to make the door stand, and use sandbags to hold it down. Then, put barels on each side....you now have a door you can use for exit/enter a "room."

You can always use shirts over targets to give a more challenging stage. You can use everyday things to set up stages:

- Set up 6 stands on a diagonal line from the shooting position separated by 6 feet and close to the ground, and have the the shooters imagine it is a ferocious animal running towards them. Do three strings: Strong Hand, Weak Hand, and Freestyle.
- Use an old baby stroller or old lawnmower and have them walk with weak hand on the stroller/mower and shoot strong hand only targets, then go to cover and take out more freestyle;
- Create a backside wall with barrels stacked two high, but put target stands on both ends just behind the barrels, and non-threats next to them, and remove one barrel from the center and put a low-mounted target behind the barrel. Have them start behind a barricade, and take out one target, move to cover, shoot the center low target and then move to shoot the last target on the other side;
- Use a cot or low table to simulate laying in bed with gun unloaded on bedside table. Have them load, shoot close targets and then go to cover to take out a few more;
- Create variety by adding a large stuffed animal to simulate holding a baby, or make them limited vickers, or make them on retreat or while moving, change starting positions, have them return to starting positions, etc.

Then, make up the story to go with it. Although I like the idea of using a situation you do everyday, like gasing up the truck, walking to the bus stop, changing a tire (easy to simulate with an old wheel/tire and a lugwrench held up with a target stand), going to Starbucks and holding your coffee, etc.

One of my favorite challenging stages is simple but requires a disappearing target (goes up, then down). Put the disappearing target behind a barrel and adjust the target so it cannot be shot from about 12-15 feet away by placing it low. Then attach a rope to release the mechanism, and tie it to a stick that the shooter holds in their strong hand. Then, with concealment, they have to pull the stick with strong hand, drop the stick, draw, and put three shots into the target before it disappears back behind the barrel. Incredibly challenging and fun. You can also have them start with gun in weak hand, or pull with weak hand to add variety.

Low cover is often overlooked as an easy way to create a interesting COF. Start from one position behind cover, shoot some targets, then go to low cover, shoot other targets. You will think of the scenarios once you do a design...

It will all come to you... and your fellow IDPA pals will give you ideas....relax.
CC

[ACP230]

One of the first IDPA matches I shot had a stage called "Wolves In Camp."

Shooters dropped firewood, picked a gun up off a camp chair and engaged six sideways IDPA targets with head shots and then body shots. The targets were partially obscured with brush. I thought it would make more sense if it was body shots first and then head shots. (Could be cause I missed a couple of the head shots). I don't recall the number of shots but I think this stage was published in an IDPA manual.

I also thought it would be better to have the gun on the belt.

[ToddG]

Another thought and potential pitfall with scenario stages: be prepared for the I don't do that response from shooters. ACP230's example of the "Wolves in Camp" COF is a great one. Invariably, if you put enough people through that stage, some dummy is going to argue that he'd never leave his pistol on a camp chair. The only appropriate answer is "OK. DNF for you, then."

I shot a match one year -- can't remember whether it was the PA or VA championship -- and they had a stage that involved getting broken down while driving through Maryland. As such, they made you begin the stage with your gun unloaded, locked, in the trunk of your car. I pulled out my Maryland CCW card. :cool: Appropriate response from the RO: "OK. DNF for you, then." I shot the stage as proscribed.

[cclaxton]

Another thought and potential pitfall with scenario stages: be prepared for the I don't do that response from shooters. ACP230's example of the "Wolves in Camp" COF is a great one. Invariably, if you put enough people through that stage, some dummy is going to argue that he'd never leave his pistol on a camp chair. The only appropriate answer is "OK. DNF for you, then."

I shot a match one year -- can't remember whether it was the PA or VA championship -- and they had a stage that involved getting broken down while driving through Maryland. As such, they made you begin the stage with your gun unloaded, locked, in the trunk of your car. I pulled out my Maryland CCW card. :cool: Appropriate response from the RO: "OK. DNF for you, then." I shot the stage as proscribed.

That is hilarious, Todd. I wish I could have seen the look on his face when you pulled out the permit.

But, even in gun-friendly states we have to unload and put them in the trunk for certain properties...good idea for a stage, actually.
CC

[LHS]

Another thought and potential pitfall with scenario stages: be prepared for the I don't do that response from shooters. ACP230's example of the "Wolves in Camp" COF is a great one. Invariably, if you put enough people through that stage, some dummy is going to argue that he'd never leave his pistol on a camp chair. The only appropriate answer is "OK. DNF for you, then."

I shot a match one year -- can't remember whether it was the PA or VA championship -- and they had a stage that involved getting broken down while driving through Maryland. As such, they made you begin the stage with your gun unloaded, locked, in the trunk of your car. I pulled out my Maryland CCW card. :cool: Appropriate response from the RO: "OK. DNF for you, then." I shot the stage as proscribed.

Shimizu ran that match in AZ once, back when they still had the Sundog Shooters up in Prescott. He even called it "Maryland Carry". If memory serves, the first stage of the match was simply showing up in the parking lot with a loaded firearm on your person. If you didn't have a loaded gun on you when you arrived at the range, you got a DNF for the first stage.

[LHS]

Awesome. Kurt ran some absolutely fantastic matches back in the day.

Especially night stages :cool:

[ToddG]

If memory serves, the first stage of the match was simply showing up in the parking lot with a loaded firearm on your person. If you didn't have a loaded gun on you when you arrived at the range, you got a DNF for the first stage.

If it was an IDPA match, that's not only ridiculous, it's against the rules.

I've met quite a few folks who thought it might be a good idea to get some experience shooting things like USPSA/IDPA before they declared themselves ready to go out into the world with a loaded gun ready for a fight. Penalizing someone for making a choice about how to exercise his Constitutional rights seems like a very bad way to begin a match.


Especially night stages :cool:

No doubt. Especially when your wife falls asleep with a baby rattlesnake under the range bag she's using for a pillow. :cool:

[_JD_]

One of my favorite style of scenario stage is a room clearing scenario. Start off sitting in a chair with the pistol on the end table, you hear a bump (timer) and work your way through a staged house plan.

Another is a scenario that simulates a mugging on a street near your car. It's a surrender start on your knees. As you draw engage two targets at 3yards move to an "alleyway" for cover engage two targets, one of which only has a head shot available due to a noshoot. Then run to your car, where there is target close and 3 other targets at distance.

Basically any scenario can be cheezy or gamerriffic. I like IDPA for the "try" at realism, but it's still just that a try.

I like that, will add that to the file.



One of the tricks I use is to look at where you are at any point during your day. Then use the location as a start for a stage design. For instance: pumping gas, going inside to pay for gas, shopping at a stop & rob, walking down a street, walking into the mall, etc. I've heard of people setting the alarm on their watch to random times and when it goes off, just look around and design a stage from your surroundings. Use your imagination and say "what if".

I use barrels for walls and cover a lot of the time. Easy to set up and tear down. I also try to design stages that are easy to administrate. Easy to score and get ready for the next shooter. Lots of circus props and targets are fun to shoot, but can be a hassle to keep running and reset for each shooter.

That is an excellent idea, thank you.



When I got into USPSA, my local club shot "the classics" - you'd have a tough time distinguishing our matches, informal or formal, from a "Bear Valley" match.

As the club progressed, it became much more elaborate and complicated. A shame really. We hardly do any SSO, much less weak side. We use light bars, cars and all kinds of "props" now. Everyone just wants to go as fast as possible. No shoots are less and less common. So are the movers.

I'd look at variations of el pres. Like an ATM version. Maybe a parking lot Guatemalian. Sitting stages really throw people off. So does going prone, if the membership is capable. It's also fun to bring in a "long gun" and do malf or out of ammo drills. The USMC MEU(SOC) pistol qualification is a wonderfully rich source of scenarios too.

If you are looking for "realistic" stages - I'd suggest going to youtube and looking for police video/surveillance video footage.


I plan on keeping a lot of WHO and SHO involved, movers if I can work them in well. At our last match I had two skills stages where WHO and SHO came in, a lot of the shooters commented that they definitely needed to work on their WHO skills...so we'll be doing more in our June match. We also had lots of no-shoots. As we're not yet IDPA affiliated, we can get away from their 1 NS for 1-5 threat targets etc.


One of the most fun stages I recall from an old AZ state match, involved lying on a bed with your gun on the nightstand along with a spare magazine. At the buzzer, you roll out of bed, grab the gun and the spare mag, engage threats in the bedroom, then move to another location and engage threats there. The scenario was you wake up in your room at night with someone there. TCoB, retrieve spare magazine, and address the screams coming from your kid's room down the hall.

One I've thought of but never seen run, is an ATM stage. Think of it as an El Pres shot from an ATM, from retention, with one or two bad guys instead of three.

At a Carolina Cup years ago, they had a stage where you start kneeling with your hands in a bucket of soapy water, as if you were washing your car. At the buzzer, you turn and engage three threats from kneeling.

I've been working a couple of ATM scenarios and will keep the retention angle in mind. The soapy water, WILL DEFINITELY DO.



There was a stage at the IDPA Nationals years ago where you started lying on the ceiling of an overturned car. :cool:

The inaugural invite-only KSTG match had a stage that began lying face down on the ground beside a Suburban. The scenario was that you stepped out of the car and got conked on the head by a baseball bat wielding gang banger. On the buzzer, you shot a close range target six times (to slide lock) from the ground, then picked up the baseball he supposedly dropped. You used the bat to crush the skull (melon) of one of his accomplices before racing around to the back of the Suburban, reloading your gun, and shooting some more threats. The best part of the stage was the hilarity involved in people trying to hit the melon... with varying degrees of success. :cool:


We used to do some off the wall stuff with the old club...it didn't go over very well with a lot of the "IDPA Crowd" As much as I like the out of the box thinking I don't think we'll be smacking any melons around. ;)


1st question: Are you limited to shooting downrange only, or can you shoot to the left and right? (Berms on the sides handle handgun rounds?, Indoor?, Using bullet catchers?, etc.)

The venue/club will limit what you can do.

Use barrels to create "hallways" or "walls." You can also just use a wooden frame made from 2x4's to create windows, car windows, etc. Black plastic sheeting wrapped over 3/4" PVC Pipe frame can also make excellent walls/cover. Once you have enough props built up that will give you a lot more ideas and variety of options. Buy a cheap door at Hardware Store that comes with a frame. Attach 2x2 wood trusses at the bottom of the door frame to make the door stand, and use sandbags to hold it down. Then, put barels on each side....you now have a door you can use for exit/enter a "room."

You can always use shirts over targets to give a more challenging stage. You can use everyday things to set up stages:


It will all come to you... and your fellow IDPA pals will give you ideas....relax.
CC

We can do left and right, here's our actual layout. All out-door.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/jdlv4_0/BHPCDimensions-1.jpg

Good info on the PVC, I've all ready got T-shirts on the list from Goodwill etc. More on that later. We've got a door, low cover is old hat with this crowd. :cool:


Another thought and potential pitfall with scenario stages: be prepared for the I don't do that response from shooters. ACP230's example of the "Wolves in Camp" COF is a great one. Invariably, if you put enough people through that stage, some dummy is going to argue that he'd never leave his pistol on a camp chair. The only appropriate answer is "OK. DNF for you, then."

I shot a match one year -- can't remember whether it was the PA or VA championship -- and they had a stage that involved getting broken down while driving through Maryland. As such, they made you begin the stage with your gun unloaded, locked, in the trunk of your car. I pulled out my Maryland CCW card. :cool: Appropriate response from the RO: "OK. DNF for you, then." I shot the stage as proscribed.

Yeah, "Shut up and do it" is firmly in my vocabulary. :D


Some things I'm thinking off:

I want a HUGE wooden cable spool to make moving cover.

I fell in love with the Action Target "running target" @ a Langdon class, will definitely be hounding the board to get me one of those.

As far as the shirts are go, what I plan on doing is having some random stages that don't count for the score (we can use the skills stages to provide scoring data) I want to do the "color drills" moving targets around can calling out shirt colors etc. so it's not the same old stage everyone is doing the same way. Other things like moving armed targets around etc.

I shot a USPSA stage where we shot at obscured targets behind soft cover etc and I think PVC pipe framing and some dark sheets etc. will do just fine for that.

I've been shooting IDPA for about three years. I've attended state matches in IL, WI and heading to MO in June so I've got a pretty good basis on what's what, it's just really hard for me to find new angles on things and keep it "new". We're a "new" club pretty much in name only. We're picking up the pieces from another club that didn't make it due autocratic leadership fail... which is good for us as we all ready have a solid group of guys to come shoot. Our first two matches this year have been 20 and 18 in attendance, the 18 being on Memorial Day weekend, both matches where about twice the average attendance the other club had the last two years so we're off to a good start, but I just want to really hook the newer guys.

Thanks all,

Keep it coming.

[LHS]

If it was an IDPA match, that's not only ridiculous, it's against the rules.

I've met quite a few folks who thought it might be a good idea to get some experience shooting things like USPSA/IDPA before they declared themselves ready to go out into the world with a loaded gun ready for a fight. Penalizing someone for making a choice about how to exercise his Constitutional rights seems like a very bad way to begin a match.


It wasn't IDPA, it was a proprietary club running their own rules, and geared for a more experienced shooter. The rationale given was that AZ was an open-carry state, so you had no 'excuse' for not carrying in some manner. That said, I concur about some people wanting to practice or shoot some matches before feeling comfortable with carrying in public.

This brings up another point, though: you can get into some really fun, cool, inventive stuff, but you still have to accommodate newer shooters who may not be up to that level of complexity, and even with experienced shooters, you have to keep an eye out for Murphy.

Some time ago at Fort Harmar rifle club, John Markwell came up with the 'creek match' as a way to cool off in the hot, humid August days. The first one started at the edge of the creek bank, sitting in a fishing chair with your pistol. At the buzzer, you dropped your fishing pole, drew your weapon, dropped into the creek (which was about shin-deep) and went downstream, engaging Pepper poppers on the banks as you went, until you reached a deep pool at the bend in the creek. Here you had to swim across the pool, crawl out into a little game trail, and out into the field. There was a tent in the field, near Markwell's minivan. You retrieved an M1 Carbine from the tent, took cover behind the van, and engaged the stop plate to end the stage. We all thought it was a great idea, until the first person ran the stage. He slipped and tumbled head-over-heels into the creek, with a drawn pistol. Immediately, the course was changed so that you couldn't draw until AFTER you got into the creek (and the timer didn't start until then either). It was something that should have been foreseen, but wasn't, likely due to the enthusiasm for the idea of the match itself.

Later creek matches were less complex, using different parts of the creek to eliminate the swim and the drop from the bank to the creek. They were still fun and novel, but far safer for everyone involved.


No doubt. Especially when your wife falls asleep with a baby rattlesnake under the range bag she's using for a pillow. :cool:

I don't remember that one, but I do remember poor Kurt's Tahoe getting the windows papered with DNF-marked scoresheets.

[Shokr21]

JD, where in central IA are you? I shoot at Ankeny Ikes weekly, and Ames Ikes and Boone Sportsmens whenever I can make a match.

For a big wooden spool, talk to an REC (rural electric co-op) my Dad used to work for Midland in Jefferson and we'd take old copper and line spools and use them as poker/picnic tables at hunting cabins. They have them in all sizes, never hurts to ask if you can throw one in the back of a truck.

Sounds like you have some pretty good ideas in the pot, I'll look forward to shooting with you sometime if that's possible.

[_JD_]

JD, where in central IA are you? I shoot at Ankeny Ikes weekly, and Ames Ikes and Boone Sportsmens whenever I can make a match.

For a big wooden spool, talk to an REC (rural electric co-op) my Dad used to work for Midland in Jefferson and we'd take old copper and line spools and use them as poker/picnic tables at hunting cabins. They have them in all sizes, never hurts to ask if you can throw one in the back of a truck.

Sounds like you have some pretty good ideas in the pot, I'll look forward to shooting with you sometime if that's possible.


Conrad, heading up IDPA in Waterloo with the Black Hawk Pistol Club, have shot @ Ames/Boone more than a few times, not so much this year, things have been a little crazy around the house of late. I went and shot up @ the WI state match last year with Eric Bauer.

Let me know if you plan on shooting @ Ames any time soon, Boone is a little bit of a haul for me. The wife is going through EMT training and is working on her ride time and hospital hours + studying so I'm playing Mr. Mom on most weekends but I pretty much jump at the chance to meet up with forum members. We had a guy from HKPro come out last weekend for IDPA and a couple of guys from one of the 1911 forums the match prior.


When does Ankeny shoot?

[JAD]

I'm from Waterloo (and my initials are JD). I'll try to time a visit to my brothers with one of your matches -- do you have a club website?

[BLR]

We also had lots of no-shoots. As we're not yet IDPA affiliated, we can get away from their 1 NS for 1-5 threat targets etc.


When I had occasion to design a stage (IPSC, never had the chance with IDPA), I used no shoots to beat on the "gamers." That is my primary complaint about IDPA, and the rules tell you what you "can" do, not what you "can't" and something about that rubs me the wrong way.

One particularly challenging stage involved shooting a charging dog at a slightly oblique angle to protect some children (made up of no shoots). We used a metric target for the dog on a pulley system. THAT was damn difficult. Inspiration, I was told, was from a similar actual incident in Dayton - an aggressive dog charged/chased a bunch of kids playing in their yard. I don't believe anyone was there with a gun, and seem to remember one of the kids got hurt.

Enjoy your freedom now, the stage nazis will be along soon ;)

[_JD_]

I'm from Waterloo (and my initials are JD). I'll try to time a visit to my brothers with one of your matches -- do you have a club website?

The website is not always the most up to date: http://www.blackhawkpistol.org/home

BHPC is also part of the Illinois/Iowa Practical Shooters Forum (http://www.illowapracticalshooters.com/forums/index.php?showforum=65) where the most up to date info is, and I also maintain a BHPC Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/BlackhawkPistolClub)

IDPA typically shoots the 4th Sunday of the month, but we've got two Saturday shoots this year: June 30th* (5th Saturday of June) & September 29th* (5th Saturday of September)


When I had occasion to design a stage (IPSC, never had the chance with IDPA), I used no shoots to beat on the "gamers." That is my primary complaint about IDPA, and the rules tell you what you "can" do, not what you "can't" and something about that rubs me the wrong way.

One particularly challenging stage involved shooting a charging dog at a slightly oblique angle to protect some children (made up of no shoots). We used a metric target for the dog on a pulley system. THAT was damn difficult. Inspiration, I was told, was from a similar actual incident in Dayton - an aggressive dog charged/chased a bunch of kids playing in their yard. I don't believe anyone was there with a gun, and seem to remember one of the kids got hurt.

Enjoy your freedom now, the stage nazis will be along soon ;)

While I'm limited on no-shoots by IDPA rules "hard cover" is pretty much ungoverned, anything in the black is down 5 and you can make for some pretty tight shots that way. Just last weekend I has us doing a series of three Bill Drills (Free-style, SHO, WHO) on targets that only had the down zeros available. Needless to say the Pts Down on that stage were pretty high and it really drive home the need to slow down and make the shots count. The shoot for best time and "OK" accuracy group did not do well.

While I can't get away with something exactly like that in a scenario stage, it shows some potential in limited application of black paint. :p

We've also got some swingers that move quite erratically. Fixing a no shoot on to that thing is just flat out wrong.

I'll deal with the stage nazis as they come, they rank right up there with the "I don't do things like that crowd" mentioned above...

[BN]

Some time ago at Fort Harmar rifle club, John Markwell came up with the 'creek match' as a way to cool off in the hot, humid August days. Later creek matches were less complex, using different parts of the creek to eliminate the swim and the drop from the bank to the creek. They were still fun and novel, but far safer for everyone involved.
.

I remember the creek matches. :cool: We all shot 1911's and tried to hit all the poppers with one shot so we didn't risk dropping a mag in the creek while reloading. ;)

[BN]

Another thing I used recently is cardboard painted like bushes, stapled to a target stand and designated as soft cover. I gave the shooter the option to shoot through it or move downrange and shoot past it. The targets were a few feet behind the soft cover with heads only visible unless the shooter moved down range. This gave the shooter plenty of room to shoot without any safety issues. This stage had no cover for the shooter to use. They had to rescue a family member (no-shoot) that was down range by the farthest targets.

[BLR]

It wasn't IDPA, it was a proprietary club running their own rules, and geared for a more experienced shooter. The rationale given was that AZ was an open-carry state, so you had no 'excuse' for not carrying in some manner. That said, I concur about some people wanting to practice or shoot some matches before feeling comfortable with carrying in public.

This brings up another point, though: you can get into some really fun, cool, inventive stuff, but you still have to accommodate newer shooters who may not be up to that level of complexity, and even with experienced shooters, you have to keep an eye out for Murphy.

Some time ago at Fort Harmar rifle club, John Markwell came up with the 'creek match' as a way to cool off in the hot, humid August days. The first one started at the edge of the creek bank, sitting in a fishing chair with your pistol. At the buzzer, you dropped your fishing pole, drew your weapon, dropped into the creek (which was about shin-deep) and went downstream, engaging Pepper poppers on the banks as you went, until you reached a deep pool at the bend in the creek. Here you had to swim across the pool, crawl out into a little game trail, and out into the field. There was a tent in the field, near Markwell's minivan. You retrieved an M1 Carbine from the tent, took cover behind the van, and engaged the stop plate to end the stage. We all thought it was a great idea, until the first person ran the stage. He slipped and tumbled head-over-heels into the creek, with a drawn pistol. Immediately, the course was changed so that you couldn't draw until AFTER you got into the creek (and the timer didn't start until then either). It was something that should have been foreseen, but wasn't, likely due to the enthusiasm for the idea of the match itself.

Later creek matches were less complex, using different parts of the creek to eliminate the swim and the drop from the bank to the creek. They were still fun and novel, but far safer for everyone involved.



I don't remember that one, but I do remember poor Kurt's Tahoe getting the windows papered with DNF-marked scoresheets.

That sounds like unreal fun.

[Shokr21]

JD and docpogo, sounds like we need to get together. Ankeny is USPSA and shoots every tuesday, for now it's only three stages but our new 4 bays should be ready in july.

I haven't shot IDPA in a while but the hardest part is just remember to retain my mags unless reloading from slide lock.

[_JD_]

JD and docpogo, sounds like we need to get together. Ankeny is USPSA and shoots every tuesday, for now it's only three stages but our new 4 bays should be ready in july.

I haven't shot IDPA in a while but the hardest part is just remember to retain my mags unless reloading from slide lock.

What time to they start? I typically don't get off work till 17:00

[ford.304]

Don't know if it would be IDPA legal, but one of the coolest 3-gun videos I've seen involved an "escape from a kidnapping" type scenario where you had to start the run with your hands tied and blindfolded, and were given a knife to cut yourself out before shooting your way through the stage. They also did a couple "fight your way back to your weapon" type things. Looked like a *ton* of fun.

I'd also love to see someone rig a mover to just do a Tueller drill style quick stage. Maybe a dog charges you from 40 yards - draw and stop it before it gets to you. Then do it strong hand only. I can imagine that having something charging your face like that would be an interesting change compared to your normal "attack and clear" type stages.

[_JD_]

I have a small problem with the dog stages....



A majority of the people at matches (or those that post to the damn stinkin dog threads) I would not want shooting in real life at a low, fast moving dog, especially where other people are present. Granted in most cases at least the rounds have a good chance of just going into the ground, but shooting at static "dog" targets (most I've seen consist of having the down 3 & 4 zones removed) is nothing like trying to aim in on a live animal that's trying to eat or gore you.

I think the only way I'd do the dog thing is if I had some way to make that thing really move.

Something closer to this:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b04_1337719658

Rather than this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgwVr1mz1_8


I think I'd rather a shooter leave a dog thread saying "hell no am I going to try and do that unless it's absolutely necessary!" Rather than "Dogs? Bring 'em on!!!!"

If I can get a bob & weave track made, with a 3D target and have the timer activate a stereo blaring gnarling, barking and growling in the shooters ear, I'd be all about it.

[CMG]

Due to the high winds we get in our area, we use this (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/building-materials/fencing/tenax-guardian-safety-fence/4-ft-x-100-ft-orange-warning-barrier-20640.html) type of material for our "walls" on some stages.

[LHS]

I'd also love to see someone rig a mover to just do a Tueller drill style quick stage. Maybe a dog charges you from 40 yards - draw and stop it before it gets to you. Then do it strong hand only. I can imagine that having something charging your face like that would be an interesting change compared to your normal "attack and clear" type stages.

I've seen this done with a standard bad guy target. It starts edge-on to the shooter, rotates into view, charges forward, then rotates edge-on again at the end of the charge. You had to do a Bill Drill on it before it vanished at the end of the charge.

[_JD_]

Due to the high winds we get in our area, we use this (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/building-materials/fencing/tenax-guardian-safety-fence/4-ft-x-100-ft-orange-warning-barrier-20640.html) type of material for our "walls" on some stages.

Yep, we've got a ton of that, we use it as "snow fencing" here in IA. We've got some solid wall sections as well, but a lot of the mesh stuff.

[jlw]

I don't like stage/pickup guns. IDPA is a game, and people should be able to play with their own gear, especially at major matches where the match fees are so high and championships are on the line.

I also prefer straight forward but challenging stages to crazy "you parachute in" or "mobsters have kidnapped you and put you in the trunk of a car".

[_JD_]

I don't like stage/pickup guns. IDPA is a game, and people should be able to play with their own gear, especially at major matches where the match fees are so high and championships are on the line.

I also prefer straight forward but challenging stages to crazy "you parachute in" or "mobsters have kidnapped you and put you in the trunk of a car".

I kind of like the idea of a drop gun, but I'd rather see it done in a close quarters type thing, wrestle with a mannequin or something and retrieve a gun off the ground, but nothing too crazy, I know of an instance where they chose a HK P7 as the drop gun, just to screw with people.

But I'm with you on the outlandish scenarios, attacked my martians, mobsters, or in-laws etc.

[JodyH]

I design all the stages for our local "Outlaw" CCW matches.
Two that really stand out as crowd favorites are:

"Throne room" - I went to Wal-Mart and bought a HUGE XXXL pair of sweatpants. You started the stage sitting on a toilet (chair) with the sweatpants around your ankles, reading material in your hands, loaded gun placed on the stack of magazines next to the toilet, all spare ammuntion in the pockets of the sweatpants. At the buzzer you had to stand up and open the bathroom door and engage the targets. The pants would not stay up on their own so you had to either waddle around with the pants around your ankles or hold them up and shoot one handed. It was great.

"Car trouble" - You start facing uprange with your hands on the hood of the range car. When you raised the hood it activated several moving and disappearing targets. So you had to be quick on the draw and identifying the shoot/no shoot movers and disappearing targets.

[TheRoland]

will keep the retention angle in mind.

If you must do retention, please do so in a situation where shooting from retention actually makes sense (like where there's no room to extend). Every single IDPA stage I've shot that required retention had targets far enough or small enough where punching to full extension would have been a far better move. Especially with a USPSA-centric crowd.

Personally, I think IDPA is a game, and if you're going to require shooting from an arbitrary "retention" position (which isn't in the rule book), you might as well have stages that require you to shoot cup-and-saucer or gangster-style.

[_JD_]

I design all the stages for our local "Outlaw" CCW matches.
Two that really stand out as crowd favorites are:

"Throne room" - I went to Wal-Mart and bought a HUGE XXXL pair of sweatpants. You started the stage sitting on a toilet (chair) with the sweatpants around your ankles, reading material in your hands, loaded gun placed on the stack of magazines next to the toilet, all spare ammuntion in the pockets of the sweatpants. At the buzzer you had to stand up and open the bathroom door and engage the targets. The pants would not stay up on their own so you had to either waddle around with the pants around your ankles or hold them up and shoot one handed. It was great.

"Car trouble" - You start facing uprange with your hands on the hood of the range car. When you raised the hood it activated several moving and disappearing targets. So you had to be quick on the draw and identifying the shoot/no shoot movers and disappearing targets.

Now that is what I'm talking about. :D

[_JD_]

If you must do retention, please do so in a situation where shooting from retention actually makes sense (like where there's no room to extend). Every single IDPA stage I've shot that required retention had targets far enough or small enough where punching to full extension would have been a far better move. Especially with a USPSA-centric crowd.

Personally, I think IDPA is a game, and if you're going to require shooting from an arbitrary "retention" position (which isn't in the rule book), you might as well have stages that require you to shoot cup-and-saucer or gangster-style.


Cup and saucer, I like that will definitely have to add it in. Maybe I can make a stage where you shoot from retention, then gangster, and then transfer to cup and saucer, that way I can piss everyone off in one stage.

Yeah, it's a game, but it's still a game that is supposed to mimic Defensive pistol use and shooting from retention is a viable defensive skill, regardless if it's in the rule book or not.

IDPA is all ready too tightly scripted enough without trying to add "what is retention" into the mix. Is retention from the hip? From the 2 count of the draw stroke? High compressed ready????? I'd rather not see it added to the rule book.

But I do agree that it needs to be done right at targets inside of 5 yards etc, sometimes, the reason it's done at distances greater is to keep the targets from getting blown to hell, but what I've seen done for close range targets is the removal of the down zero zone to prevent if from getting blown out.

[NEPAKevin]

I think the only way I'd do the dog thing is if I had some way to make that thing really move.

Something closer to this:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b04_1337719658



I used to do stages that had charging targets, gravity runners on cables, that were activated by a popper and would "over-run" the shooter if he did not retreat. Worked great for most but a couple of guys who were movement-challenged got hit by the targets and the complaining ensued. The unexpected problem was that the stage did not allow for the lowest common denominator (which was lower than I anticipated) and it was felt that there was too much potential for safety issues. Not stated was that it made guys look bad in front of their buddies. That said, there were some impressive moments such as when one guy who was shooting a j-frame did a reload while backpedaling by dumping the cylinder and throwing a single round into a chamber, reengaging the still charging target, casually side stepping as it passed and showing clear.

[Shokr21]

Tuesday shoots start at 1800, probably a little too early if you're coming from the 'loo.

I've been thinking about scenario's that interest me since you started this thread.

I like the idea of a bump in the night, starting either in a recliner tv watching mode, or sleeping in bed mode.
The car trouble suggestion was excellent!
XXXXXL sweatpants on the throne would be fun to see and shoot.
A walk the dog scenario, encouraging who/sho shooting.
Gasing up the car would be good.

Basically any every day activity built into a scenario would be good I think.

[NEPAKevin]

But I do agree that it needs to be done right at targets inside of 5 yards etc, the reason it's done at distances greater is to keep the targets from getting blown to hell, but what I've seen done for close range targets is the removal of the down zero zone to prevent if from getting blown out.

Another thing that helps is putting a t-shirt on the target so the muzzle blast is less likely to blow off pasters. I think it makes sense to require only one or two shots from retention and make the shooter retreat away from the target. Another thing that was liked was when we put targets on a "wagon" that had an attached rope which went between the shooters legs and was held by the weak hand so as the shooter engages while retreating, the threats follow him.

[_JD_]

Tuesday shoots start at 1800, probably a little too early if you're coming from the 'loo.

I've been thinking about scenario's that interest me since you started this thread.

I like the idea of a bump in the night, starting either in a recliner tv watching mode, or sleeping in bed mode.
The car trouble suggestion was excellent!
XXXXXL sweatpants on the throne would be fun to see and shoot.
A walk the dog scenario, encouraging who/sho shooting.
Gasing up the car would be good.

Basically any every day activity built into a scenario would be good I think.

Work is in Marshalltown, just up 330/65, just about an hour...if I hustle I can make it. What's the typical match?

[BLR]

Yeah, it's a game, but it's still a game that is supposed to mimic Defensive pistol use and shooting from retention is a viable defensive skill, regardless if it's in the rule book or not.


Yep. It's exactly what you make of it. Some guys just really look at it as a game. And that's cool by me. It adds pressure, and practice under pressure is good for everyone. It teaches presence of mind with adrenaline flowing.

Reloading in front of 30 people while the clock is running is different than in your living room for practice.

BTW - our "charging dog" was charging at 4 ft off the ground for backstop purposes.

[ToddG]

Yeah, it's a game, but it's still a game that is supposed to mimic Defensive pistol use and shooting from retention is a viable defensive skill, regardless if it's in the rule book or not.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. There are countless things that one person or another might call "a viable defensive skill." That doesn't mean they belong in an IDPA match. Shooting from retention has huge issues related to scoring because some people are simply going to be at a height or have a method that puts the gun level with the -0 zone, and some won't. Most modern thinking on shooting from retention doesn't involve aiming for the upper thoracic to begin with. Finally, some retention position methods are inherently less safe than normal shooting.

As another poster pointed out, dictating a particular "retention position" is no more legitimate than dictating a particular grip. If I showed up and there was a stage that required me to shoot cup 'n saucer, I'd likely take my DNF. I don't go to a match to see what kind of goofy crap the MD can force on me.

Think about attending a match with a low light, and when you get the stage briefing you're told you absolutely must shoot using the Chapman flashlight technique. If your flashlight doesn't accommodate it, tough. If that's not the way you train, tough. If there are other people there who do train that way, and their gear does work well for it, and they get a huge advantage over you... tough. No thanks.

I'm not interested in the Match Director's five favorite skills nor do I care what he thinks is the "right" way to shoot from retention.

[ToddG]

Another thing that helps is putting a t-shirt on the target so the muzzle blast is less likely to blow off pasters.

This is a huge pet peeve of mine. Putting t-shirts on non-reactive targets makes it impossible to assess shot placement. It's the antithesis of realistic even though many people do it think it's "more real." Since the targets don't drop, the only way I can determine whether my hits were "effective" is to see where they landed relative to the scoring zones. Cover that up and I'm just going on blind faith whether I accomplished the task. This is especially true since so few game targets adequately represent appropriate hit zones relative to human anatomy.

At the 2010 Rangemaster Tactical Match they used fully clothed targets, but the targets were reactive steel. You had to aim at a real(-istic) person and hit real(-istic) zones to knock him down. You shot until he dropped. That's an outstanding way to use t-shirts over targets.

[gtmtnbiker98]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. There are countless things that one person or another might call "a viable defensive skill." That doesn't mean they belong in an IDPA match. Shooting from retention has huge issues related to scoring because some people are simply going to be at a height or have a method that puts the gun level with the -0 zone, and some won't. Most modern thinking on shooting from retention doesn't involve aiming for the upper thoracic to begin with. Finally, some retention position methods are inherently less safe than normal shooting.

As another poster pointed out, dictating a particular "retention position" is no more legitimate than dictating a particular grip. If I showed up and there was a stage that required me to shoot cup 'n saucer, I'd likely take my DNF. I don't go to a match to see what kind of goofy crap the MD can force on me.

Think about attending a match with a low light, and when you get the stage briefing you're told you absolutely must shoot using the Chapman flashlight technique. If your flashlight doesn't accommodate it, tough. If that's not the way you train, tough. If there are other people there who do train that way, and their gear does work well for it, and they get a huge advantage over you... tough. No thanks.

I'm not interested in the Match Director's five favorite skills nor do I care what he thinks is the "right" way to shoot from retention.Oh my, I share the same ideology and I AM THE MATCH DIRECTOR. I'm growing so sick of IDPA that I can't even begin to plan for the next Match. Don't even get me started on those Tiger Teams (the 'in' crowd of IDPA).

As for the scenarios for stages, I don't write them nor do I expect my SO's to read them. They are retarded. Read the course description and go hot.

[markp]

Shimizu ran that match in AZ once, back when they still had the Sundog Shooters up in Prescott. He even called it "Maryland Carry". If memory serves, the first stage of the match was simply showing up in the parking lot with a loaded firearm on your person. If you didn't have a loaded gun on you when you arrived at the range, you got a DNF for the first stage.

Sundog Shooters ran some of the best matches back in the day.
I remember that match above, it was the last match of the season as I recall.

[TheRoland]

Yeah, it's a game, but it's still a game that is supposed to mimic Defensive pistol use and shooting from retention is a viable defensive skill, regardless if it's in the rule book or not.

My point is that this line of reasoning can be used to require using the CAR system, taking corners from a bladed dueling stance, or not using a slide release.


IDPA is all ready too tightly scripted enough without trying to add "what is retention" into the mix. Is retention from the hip? From the 2 count of the draw stroke? High compressed ready????? I'd rather not see it added to the rule book.

If you don't define it, I'm going to tell you that my preferred school shoots 'retention' from a position I like to call "high-extended-ready". I'm looking to play the game, not learn a particular school's thought on how to manage fights at close range.

[BLR]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. There are countless things that one person or another might call "a viable defensive skill." That doesn't mean they belong in an IDPA match. Shooting from retention has huge issues related to scoring because some people are simply going to be at a height or have a method that puts the gun level with the -0 zone, and some won't. Most modern thinking on shooting from retention doesn't involve aiming for the upper thoracic to begin with. Finally, some retention position methods are inherently less safe than normal shooting.

I'm always surprised more classes aren't taught like an IPSC/IDPA match, but with a syllabus and a good instructor.

Downside - round count would drop.

Upside - individual student attention would go up. Throw in an "apprentice" instructor that could run drills in the next bay while the instructor goes through the syllabus.

Of course, that might be much easier said than done with a class...

[LHS]

If you must do retention, please do so in a situation where shooting from retention actually makes sense (like where there's no room to extend). Every single IDPA stage I've shot that required retention had targets far enough or small enough where punching to full extension would have been a far better move. Especially with a USPSA-centric crowd.

Personally, I think IDPA is a game, and if you're going to require shooting from an arbitrary "retention" position (which isn't in the rule book), you might as well have stages that require you to shoot cup-and-saucer or gangster-style.

Most matches where I've seen proper retention stages, you start within arm's reach of the target, fire from retention while retreating, and extend as you get proper distance. I agree, hip-shooting targets @ 10 yards is silly, but retention shooting is a viable skill for a specific niche.

[Shokr21]

Work is in Marshalltown, just up 330/65, just about an hour...if I hustle I can make it. What's the typical match?

pm inbound

[TheRoland]

Most matches where I've seen proper retention stages, you start within arm's reach of the target, fire from retention while retreating, and extend as you get proper distance. I agree, hip-shooting targets @ 10 yards is silly, but retention shooting is a viable skill for a specific niche.

If I'd shot matches where this was the case (where it sounds like they really just don't want you putting your muzzle on the target) I probably wouldn't hate the practice so very, very much. :p

[NEPAKevin]

Personally, I think IDPA is a game, and if you're going to require shooting from an arbitrary "retention" position (which isn't in the rule book), you might as well have stages that require you to shoot cup-and-saucer or gangster-style.

One reason why a specific retention position might be specified is to avoid safety issues, such as muzzling the weak hand.

[_JD_]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. There are countless things that one person or another might call "a viable defensive skill." That doesn't mean they belong in an IDPA match. Shooting from retention has huge issues related to scoring because some people are simply going to be at a height or have a method that puts the gun level with the -0 zone, and some won't. Most modern thinking on shooting from retention doesn't involve aiming for the upper thoracic to begin with. Finally, some retention position methods are inherently less safe than normal shooting.

What I typically do is describe the different flavors of retention up to and including 3/4 hip etc. If someone wants to break out in a speed rock, from the arm pit, high compressed ready, etc. it's all good. If someone isn't comfortable with the notion, I tell them to shoot draw and fire while retreating and take a 3sec. penalty and that it's a not a big deal. Most of the persons not comfortable with the idea are not really there to wow us with their score and safety is our first priority but it does prevent the gamers from taking the easy way out.


As another poster pointed out, dictating a particular "retention position" is no more legitimate than dictating a particular grip. If I showed up and there was a stage that required me to shoot cup 'n saucer, I'd likely take my DNF. I don't go to a match to see what kind of goofy crap the MD can force on me.
Think about attending a match with a low light, and when you get the stage briefing you're told you absolutely must shoot using the Chapman flashlight technique. If your flashlight doesn't accommodate it, tough. If that's not the way you train, tough. If there are other people there who do train that way, and their gear does work well for it, and they get a huge advantage over you... tough. No thanks.

I'm not interested in the Match Director's five favorite skills nor do I care what he thinks is the "right" way to shoot from retention.

And that's something to keep in mind, I'm not looking to be a dictator, I'm not going to try and shoe horn anyone into any particular technique etc. so long as the end result is in keeping with what we're trying to accomplish and it's done safely, I'm good with that.





This is a huge pet peeve of mine. Putting t-shirts on non-reactive targets makes it impossible to assess shot placement. It's the antithesis of realistic even though many people do it think it's "more real." Since the targets don't drop, the only way I can determine whether my hits were "effective" is to see where they landed relative to the scoring zones. Cover that up and I'm just going on blind faith whether I accomplished the task. This is especially true since so few game targets adequately represent appropriate hit zones relative to human anatomy.

At the 2010 Rangemaster Tactical Match they used fully clothed targets, but the targets were reactive steel. You had to aim at a real(-istic) person and hit real(-istic) zones to knock him down. You shot until he dropped. That's an outstanding way to use t-shirts over targets.

I like that, good idea.


My point is that this line of reasoning can be used to require using the CAR system, taking corners from a bladed dueling stance, or not using a slide release.


If you don't define it, I'm going to tell you that my preferred school shoots 'retention' from a position I like to call "high-extended-ready". I'm looking to play the game, not learn a particular school's thought on how to manage fights at close range.

That's fine, but you don't represent every shooter. Haters are going to hate, gamers are going to game, the people that are looking for defensive practice are going to get what they want to take away from it etc. There is no perfect recipe to make everyone happy.


If I'd shot matches where this was the case (where it sounds like they really just don't want you putting your muzzle on the target) I probably wouldn't hate the practice so very, very much. :p

And there you have it, if it's done right, I really don't see the issue.


One reason why a specific retention position might be specified is to avoid safety issues, such as muzzling the weak hand.

That is a point worth pondering, but there is no "one way to rule them all" and in looking at Todd's post, you can see why:


Shooting from retention has huge issues related to scoring because some people are simply going to be at a height or have a method that puts the gun level with the -0 zone, and some won't. Most modern thinking on shooting from retention doesn't involve aiming for the upper thoracic to begin with. Finally, some retention position methods are inherently less safe than normal shooting.


Good stuff guys, keep it coming.

[ToddG]

What I typically do is describe the different flavors of retention up to and including 3/4 hip etc.

I would humbly suggest that if part of your stage description involves teaching people the technique necessary to complete the stage, the stage is flawed.

[_JD_]

I would humbly suggest that if part of your stage description involves teaching people the technique necessary to complete the stage, the stage is flawed.

So we shouldn't describe "slicing the pie" for new shooters either? What about a reload with retention? I'm sure everyone that's never shot IDPA before knows what those are. ;)

At some level we have to explain everything to a new shooter. Tactical sequence, tactical priority, etc. are all things that are new to a new shooter, we can't expect someone who's never shot IDPA before to know what everything is, and IMHO that includes shooting from retention.

[TheRoland]

So we shouldn't describe "slicing the pie" for new shooters either? What about a reload with retention? I'm sure everyone that's never shot IDPA before knows what those are. ;)

At some level we have to explain everything to a new shooter. Tactical sequence, tactical priority, etc. are all things that are new to a new shooter, we can't expect someone who's never shot IDPA before to know what everything is, and IMHO that includes shooting from retention.

These are in the rule book.

[NEPAKevin]

At some level we have to explain everything to a new shooter. Tactical sequence, tactical priority, etc. are all things that are new to a new shooter, we can't expect someone who's never shot IDPA before to know what everything is, and IMHO that includes shooting from retention.

Many clubs use a new shooter orientation to help newbs with IDPA specific terminology as well as to address other issues such as safety and range etiquette. On the old IDPA mailing list on Yahoo, IIRC, Claude Warner had an outline posted for a new shooter class. It does not hurt to let new shooters watch other shooters go through the stages so they get an idea how one is shot although it is also a good idea to let them know it is to help them and not some kind of punishment for being new.

[ToddG]

These are in the rule book.

This.

[_JD_]

These are in the rule book.


This.

And if IDPA wanted it to be prohibited, it would in the rule book as such.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that I'm going to run a retention drill in every match, only that it does have some merit in being included when it comes to defensive pistol shooting and exposes some shooters to something new that is defensive in nature that they may not be able to do elsewhere.

I get that it's a hard topic as there is no standard for it, and that it should be done in very limited circumstances and in as safe a manner as possible (further reading elsewhere shows that a lot of people advocate lowering the target, removing the down zero, and the head as to limit the likelihood of shots going high) but I didn't expect this much hullabaloo over it but it's definitely helping in getting a grasp on what may be too over the top.

[ToddG]

I get that it's a hard topic as there is no standard for it,

That's it right there, dude. You can keep justifying it as "defensive" but IDPA is a game. It's supposed to be a fair shooting competition. You can come up with all sorts of skills and technique you think people should know but that doesn't mean they're fit for inclusion in the game.

As soon as you start trying to make your match into a lesson it's no longer a match and shouldn't be billed as such.

There are all sorts of things that aren't specifically outlawed in IDPA. That doesn't mean they're all appropriate.

[_JD_]

That's it right there, dude. You can keep justifying it as "defensive" but IDPA is a game. It's supposed to be a fair shooting competition. You can come up with all sorts of skills and technique you think people should know but that doesn't mean they're fit for inclusion in the game.

As soon as you start trying to make your match into a lesson it's no longer a match and shouldn't be billed as such.

There are all sorts of things that aren't specifically outlawed in IDPA. That doesn't mean they're all appropriate.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, SHO and WHO are similar skills that many could claim are unfair because they don't practice doing it?
Is the only difference that IDPA sets rules in place for target distances for SHO and WHO, head shots etc.?
If there was some standardization in the rule book for shooting from retention would that change things?
What about some of the things you do in the KSTM, like bashing melons with a bat for example? How does that relate to:


You can keep justifying it as "defensive" but IDPA is a game. It's supposed to be a fair shooting competition. You can come up with all sorts of skills and technique you think people should know but that doesn't mean they're fit for inclusion in the game
I understand that KSTM is billed as IDPA Etc. Just drawing a parallel. Keep in mind that we are not yet IDPA affiliated and are not currently bound by their rules, so in fact we're more "IDPAish" rather than IDPA.


Also, please don't think I'm trying to be argumentative, I'm really enjoying this conversation, it's just that there's some contradictory postings from different members, all of which probably have more IDPA and overall match experience than me.

[TheRoland]

If there was some standardization in the rule book for shooting from retention would that change things?

I don't think it's a good idea, but for me, it would probably change things.


What about some of the things you do in the KSTM, like bashing melons with a bat for example?

I don't shoot KSTG, but I'd probably be fine with a melon-bash due to it being quick, fun and novel, not due to any principled interpretation of the rules or application of shooting skills. If it turned into half the stage at a major match, I probably wouldn't think it was so fun.



Also, please don't think I'm trying to be argumentative, I'm really enjoying this conversation, it's just that there's some contradictory postings from different members, all of which probably have more IDPA and overall match experience than me.

I'm enjoying the conversation, too, and IDPA rules are somewhat tailored to start arguments like this.:D

[NEPAKevin]

And if IDPA wanted it to be prohibited, it would in the rule book as such.


... or in the addendum or on the online clarifications.

[_JD_]

... or in the addendum or on the online clarifications.

Yep, nothing in the addendum, the on-line clarification thing still bothers me, that's topic for another thread...But yeah, so far nothing prohibiting shooting from retention there either.

[ToddG]

If there was some standardization in the rule book for shooting from retention would that change things?

100%. I may not like it -- there are things I don't agree with in the IDPA rule book now -- but it would be perfecting reasonable if the game specified shooting from retention in terms of what that meant, when and how it could be used in a stage, etc.

[shootist26]

what are all of your opinions on stages w/ pickup guns?

[ToddG]

what are all of your opinions on stages w/ pickup guns?

For a local club match, sure. It could give someone an advantage -- if your pickup gun is a j-frame, some guys are going to be experienced j-frame shooters and some will never have touched one before -- but the fun and novelty probably outweigh that.

For major events, I think it's very poor form. The S&W match had pickup guns for a few years and it always left a bad taste in people's mouths because there was a feeling that "S&W shooters have more experience shooting S&W guns" thus making the pickup less more familiar for them. I don't know how true that really is, but it still creates another instance of the MD/stage/game tilting the playing field in favor of some people.

[LHS]

what are all of your opinions on stages w/ pickup guns?

I agree with Todd: awesome for club matches, not so much for big matches. I've had some club matches with awesome pickups, including an Uzi, a Makarov, a S&W M10, and even one time a cheap Raven .25 (which I thought was borderline unsafe).

[jlw]

what are all of your opinions on stages w/ pickup guns?


I don't like them. Shooters may be forced to shoot something completely foreign to them, and IDPA is a game. Let people play to win with their own gear.

[NEPAKevin]

Jerry Miculek never seems to have a problem with pick-up guns.

[LHS]

I don't like them. Shooters may be forced to shoot something completely foreign to them, and IDPA is a game. Let people play to win with their own gear.

That's kind of the point. The trick is to find something so rare/odd that nobody has an unfair advantage with it.

[PPGMD]

Another thing that helps is putting a t-shirt on the target so the muzzle blast is less likely to blow off pasters.

Hate this idea, I don't train IDPA style retention shooting, thus I have to see my hits to adjust as necessary. No you may ask why not? IDPA is a fun match for me, thus their style of retention shooting has no bearing on my "tactical" shooting, nor since it isn't my primary competitions it doesn't effect my "practical" shooting.

Now one way to prevent the target from getting blown to hell is to cut out the lower 0 zone. Anything outside the 0 zone is scored and taped, otherwise if the target is clear it's 0 down. Now granted your score person/SO needs to watch for someone just tossing the shots, and they have to watch for make up shots. But for the most part it works for honest shooters.

[BN]

what are all of your opinions on stages w/ pickup guns?

I think it's a bad idea. It's always unfair to somebody. Do you think it was fair to everybody else the time I went to a State match and the pick up gun was a Smith & Wesson Model 15 revolver exactly like the one I've been shooting for 30 years? :cool:

A lot of shooters aren't familiar with a wide variety of firearms, but there's always somebody that has shot everything.

[NEPAKevin]

Hate this idea, I don't train IDPA style retention shooting,...

To the best of my knowledge, there is no retention method stipulated by IDPA as discussed previously in this thread.

The way I was taught to shoot targets with shirts is you call your shots as you normally would using your sights but use the head and shoulder cuts to judge the COM scoring zone, i.e. the top of the down zero circle is in line with the lower shoulder cut and centered on the head. It's the same as when you are shooting a target that you cannot see the scoring cuts either due to the distance or poor lighting conditions. From retention, you can see where the bullet strikes as it passes through the material.

Out of idle curiosity, is there a target which is reactive that is also reliable, quick to reset, and safe to shoot from retention ranges? We have tried the porous rubber type targets for ranges where steel is not safe and they get as many complaints as the Reed Reactors.

[theblacknight]

Shooting thru shirts is cool with me. I've shot stages in production that had partial softcover over some targets. Its just one more thing to be competitive at.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[PPGMD]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no retention method stipulated by IDPA as discussed previously in this thread.

Maybe not IDPA rule book stipulated but I've been told how to shoot the retention stages at IDPA matches (basically speed rock).

I guarantee you if I used a ECQC style retention shooting I would be given a DQ because it didn't impact more then 3 feet in front from my feet. Add in the fact that the position for retention stages is too far for this type of retention shooting (you basically have to be practically touching the target). Finally with ECQC style retention shooting it likely would only strike the target on the very bottom on the -3 zone.

Anyways it's another one of those safety oriented game rules, vs how I would do it in real life. Same with the t-shirt hits, in real life my hit zone would be the upper chest, not the middle of the chest like the 0 zone.

[_JD_]

I think the retention thing has been completely trampled into bits. Can we sweep up the pieces and move back to good stage ideas?

Thanks.

Sent via Tapatalk, and still using real words.

[NEPAKevin]

I think the retention thing has been completely trampled into bits. Can we sweep up the pieces and move back to good stage ideas?
.

If you have not already done so, there are a couple boards on the IDPAforum with CoF suggestions and libraries that you might want to look at.

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/forums/11/Course-Of-Fire-CoF-Library-and-Links
http://idpaforum.yuku.com/forums/13/COF-Ideas#.T8q_D_WrFc4

[jlw]

Jerry Miculek never seems to have a problem with pick-up guns.

Well there you go. One of the best shooters in the history of shooting does okay with it; so, that means everyone from novice to world champ should be good to go.


That's kind of the point. The trick is to find something so rare/odd that nobody has an unfair advantage with it.

I don't care to spend the match fee, plus travel/hotel cost, ammo costs, etc, to have winning or loosing come down to some gun I have never even handled.

[LHS]

I don't care to spend the match fee, plus travel/hotel cost, ammo costs, etc, to have winning or loosing come down to some gun I have never even handled.

And that's why I said it's great for club matches, but not so much for major matches where you have people paying serious $$$ to shoot the match.

[NEPAKevin]

... etc, to have winning or loosing come down to some gun I have never even handled.

So, it's a safe bet that you will not be applying for the next season of Top Shot. :)

Back on topic... An alternative to the foreign pick up gun, is to let the shooter use his own gun for the "you are in a gun free zone and need to use the fallen security guard's, leo's, etc. weapon. I have picked up a couple of the cheap one size fits none type nylon holsters to use for this purpose or you can start with the gun on a gun rug. edited to add: The other benefit of using the shooter's own gun is that the club saves the cost and burden of purchasing or trying to get ammo donated for the stage.

[_JD_]

So, it's a safe bet that you will not be applying for the next season of Top Shot. :)

Back on topic... An alternative to the foreign pick up gun, is to let the shooter use his own gun for the "you are in a gun free zone and need to use the fallen security guard's, leo's, etc. weapon. I have picked up a couple of the cheap one size fits none type nylon holsters to use for this purpose or you can start with the gun on a gun rug.


I was so looking forward to using my Lorcin .22 as a pick-up gun (hey it would add realism for use of a bad guy's gun:p) but that just wouldn't be right as I doubt it would work.

[LHS]

Went to a match today at the local club, and they had a 'zombie stage': Headshots only, no cover or concealment rules, you just had to shoot all targets from at least 3 yards away, and shoot from near to far.

Yeah, it was cool and all, but I can't help thinking that this zombie thing has jumped the shark.

[NEPAKevin]

Went to a match today at the local club, and they had a 'zombie stage': Headshots only, no cover or concealment rules, you just had to shoot all targets from at least 3 yards away, and shoot from near to far.

Yeah, it was cool and all, but I can't help thinking that this zombie thing has jumped the shark.

You could just change to premise to something along the lines of bad guys in body armor or use the bank robbery scene from Heat? That said, there is a zombie shooter's association for those who want to shoot the undead and IDPA is not supposed to have "little green men from mars" type scenarios.

[LHS]

You could just change to premise to something along the lines of bad guys in body armor or use the bank robbery scene from Heat? That said, there is a zombie shooter's association for those who want to shoot the undead and IDPA is not supposed to have "little green men from mars" type scenarios.

I can see a joke and/or fun match stage every now and again, but apparently they're doing one zombie stage at every match until they do a full-blown zombie match in October. Seems a little excessive, but hey, that's the beauty of local clubs.

And the 'headshoot three zombies from inside the prop car' was a perfect scenario for driving through the 'hood to get to the range.

[CMG]

My local club just had a match that included a stage that required shooting from retention. The target was a normal IDPA that had the center circle removed and it was assumed if there were no holes in the target you got a down zero. You started one yard away with a bucket in your strong side hand and there one target on either side of the center that had to be engaged while moving backwards with each target requiring 2 shots. I helped set up (not design) that stage and I was aware of discussion of this thread so I just kind of stayed back to see how that stage would go. Here are the highlights of how it went from my perspective:

There was no mention of what retention shooting was during the normal pre-match safety/break into squads meeting.
My squad was the first squad on the bay. When we go to read the stage description some mentions that the target is too high and we might shoot over the berm. The SO said ok so the target was lowered. The guy that mentioned it was probably 5'6 while I am 6'4.
The first shooter up is an Expert class shooter and when he goes to fire from retention keeps the gun too close his body and the gun fails to cycle causing him to do a Tap/Rack/Bang. The second shooter sees what happens so when he goes to shoot he draws the gun and pushes it forward from the hip like the old school point and shoot method. After this shooter the SO gives a quick demo on what retention shooting should look like.

Overall, that stage was a small part of the overall match and the scores were pretty much even across all of the classes. It doesn't appear the anyone was given a procedural but you could see the potential for that if it was a major match. If this became a recurring feature in matches you would need to establish some sort criteria about the height of the target as well as min/max distance from the target. Without those criteria it would be impossible to practice it for consistent results.