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burntorangefan
05-31-2012, 12:16 PM
Hi all, long time lurker but first time poster. I recently purchased a P30 LEM with factory v2 trigger assembly. I currently carry a Sig P228 w/ Sig Action Enhancement Package on the trigger and have trained with various DA/SA Sigs (226/229) over the last few years. I understand there's a huge difference between the triggers and wonder from others who have undergone the same type of change and have stuck with LEM, how long did it take you to finally shoot good groups with the LEM? I understand YMMV with respect to round counts, level of experience, what you consider "practical usefulness," etc. Having said that, I only have 200 round thru the LEM, but find it to be a very frustrating experience thus far. For those of you that traveled a similar road, did it finally get better around 500 rounds, 1000, 5000? I truly believe in giving it adequate time and rounds to work on it because I really want it to work. But DAMN I'm frustrated....Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

FWIW, I changed to the lighter FPBS and hammer spring (the Todd G special) last night, but haven't taken it back to the range yet. Last question, do you feel lightening the trigger helps and if so, do you advocate the Todd G special or even the full-on light LEM with light TRS as well for EDC? Again, I get it really is up to the individual...just want to know YOUR opinions...Thanks again for any help / advice.

Joe

TCinVA
05-31-2012, 12:38 PM
If by "good groups" you mean how long did it take me to shoot very small targets or small groups in deliberate slowfire, I was doing that pretty much right away. Slowfire accuracy is a question of fundamentals, and when doing deliberate slowfire if you stick to a good deliberate rolling break you usually fire good groups.

If by "good groups" you mean doing that stuff at speed, it took some time to learn how to do a proper rolling break "fast" and I'm still learning to do it "fast".

Now if this "rolling break" stuff is foreign to you, there's your problem.

The TGS on the LEM does help lighten the trigger pull a bit, which can help make achieving that good rolling break easier. Changing out that notoriously stiff LEM mainspring for a lighter non-LEM mainspring certainly made the trigger feel better in my P30 pistols.

LOKNLOD
05-31-2012, 12:46 PM
Now if this "rolling break" stuff is foreign to you, there's your problem.


Bingo. It takes how ever many rounds needed for the P30 trigger feel to "click" in your brain-finger synapse connections. If you're frustrated at 200 rounds, I'm betting you're not thrilled by 500 :p
If you fight it, you might still be frustrated at 5000.

burntorangefan
05-31-2012, 12:59 PM
If by "good groups" you mean how long did it take me to shoot very small targets or small groups in deliberate slowfire, I was doing that pretty much right away. Slowfire accuracy is a question of fundamentals, and when doing deliberate slowfire if you stick to a good deliberate rolling break you usually fire good groups.

If by "good groups" you mean doing that stuff at speed, it took some time to learn how to do a proper rolling break "fast" and I'm still learning to do it "fast".

Now if this "rolling break" stuff is foreign to you, there's your problem.

The TGS on the LEM does help lighten the trigger pull a bit, which can help make achieving that good rolling break easier. Changing out that notoriously stiff LEM mainspring for a lighter non-LEM mainspring certainly made the trigger feel better in my P30 pistols.

No, rolling break isn't foreign! Like I said, I've been lurking...I think it's likely that my fundamentals aren't what I thought they were and maybe I'm anticipating the recoil more than I think...I was talking about slow fire, good groups. I was also trying both rolling and staging the trigger and feel like I was doing better staging, but that's probably muscle memory from staging the Sig triggers...

YVK
05-31-2012, 01:09 PM
I find it interesting that you have hard time going from DA/SA to LEM. Seemingly, at least the first shot should be the same or easier as long as you don't hang up on the "second stage" of LEM trigger.

I have light FPBS, heavy TRS and 12 lbs hammer spring and I like a lighter pull with a solid reset.

I shot a Glock before going to LEM, first 2000 rounds were very frustrating, got better at about 3000, frustrating again at 4K. At 5K I said there was no way I was going to stick with this long-term, I was just waiting on the Gadget. Now at over 7000 rounds I feel like things started to come around for good, I see that I am reasonable enough with two-handed shooting so I started to dedicate more time to SHO/WHO. Still need quite a bit of work, still often throw first one/two shots during the practice (that first shot miss infuriates me more than any other miss, for some reason), still do slow dry-fire to make sure I don't stage, but overall looks much more positive now.

The three particular things that gave/are giving me most difficulty:-
- Later trigger break comparing to Glock. The perception was that "my finger already moved that much, the gun should be going off" and I kept pushing muzzle down before the shot. This really shouldn't be an issue coming from DA/SA.
- Staging the trigger. LEM is not a fully rolling trigger with its distinct "second stage", I still need to work on avoiding hang ups.
- Trigger release on a follow-up. The trigger won't stop moving until your finger stops moving, unlike Glock, SA mode etc. Early on I found I was releasing too far, and then, trying to overcorrect the excessive release, I'd shortstroke.

LEM is a great trigger for those who like the process of learning. For purely goal-oriented crowd that likes fastest times and best scores, I am not so sure, although there is a number of prolific LEM shooters here.

TCinVA
05-31-2012, 01:35 PM
No, rolling break isn't foreign! Like I said, I've been lurking...I think it's likely that my fundamentals aren't what I thought they were and maybe I'm anticipating the recoil more than I think...I was talking about slow fire, good groups. I was also trying both rolling and staging the trigger and feel like I was doing better staging, but that's probably muscle memory from staging the Sig triggers...

The thing about a rolling break is that it's really easy to not do a rolling break and yet think you're doing one. I know because I've done that a bunch. A mental understanding of what it means is pretty easy...actually executing it properly on demand behind the trigger is another thing altogether.

One of the things that helped me was to ignore my sights and concentrate entirely on just properly manipulating the trigger...from start to finish, one consistent smooth motion until the gun had gone off. No more sighting than was necessary to ensure I was still on the berm/backstop/IDPA target, just a total focus on physically replicating the idea I had in my head of how the trigger should move.

Vinh
05-31-2012, 01:46 PM
I only have 15k on the LEM V4. I've always treated it like a single action trigger, because I refused to put in the dry fire time necessary to roll through such a significant speed bump. From the start, no issues with two-handed accuracy or speed (but I've never really had fast splits with any gun). Single-handed shooting remains a challenge, simply due to the sheer amount of trigger finger motion required.

secondstoryguy
05-31-2012, 02:07 PM
It took me about 300-400 rounds until the lightbulb went off and I "got it" with my P30 with V2 LEM. I'm really good with it now and I have shot some unbelievable for-me groups with it slow fire(2.5-3" 5 shot-25 yard groups). What really helped me was just doing a lot of slow fire at small targets.

burntorangefan
05-31-2012, 02:57 PM
The three particular things that gave/are giving me most difficulty:-
- Later trigger break comparing to Glock. The perception was that "my finger already moved that much, the gun should be going off" and I kept pushing muzzle down before the shot. This really shouldn't be an issue coming from DA/SA.
- Staging the trigger. LEM is not a fully rolling trigger with its distinct "second stage", I still need to work on avoiding hang ups.
- Trigger release on a follow-up. The trigger won't stop moving until your finger stops moving, unlike Glock, SA mode etc. Early on I found I was releasing too far, and then, trying to overcorrect the excessive release, I'd shortstroke.

LEM is a great trigger for those who like the process of learning. For purely goal-oriented crowd that likes fastest times and best scores, I am not so sure, although there is a number of prolific LEM shooters here.

I think I suffer from the same three things...especially point #1. It feels like I'm an inch past where any modern firearm should have gone off and it's hard for me to maintain that front sight hold forever...But again, as noted above, that seems more like my issue and lack of fundamentals - or at least they aren't as good as I thought they were.

On point #2 - I think it's true that even when I THINK I'm rolling thru it, I'm probably hanging up - even if only slightly.

On point #3 - I was very slowly and deliberating clicking the reset and then pulling from there. Still can't believe how much the trigger travels, even from the reset point, relative to the Sigs...

Sounds like I just need to work on my fundamentals and be patient. Dry firing practice with rolling without stopping appears to be vitally important as well. Thanks to everyone who've helped so far...

ToddG
05-31-2012, 03:40 PM
As a fellow long-time SIG shooter, I found transitioning to the LEM very easy. In fairness, I had done a substantial amount of shooting with the DA shot on my SIGs (and Berettas before that). Most people make the mistake of thinking of the LEM in Glock terms because it's a consistent trigger pull. They try to shoot it like a Glock, get frustrated that it won't work for them when they shoot it like a Glock, and then decide it sucks... because it's not a Glock. Often the best option for those people is: get a Glock.

Rather than thinking of the LEM in Glock terms, I always thought of it as a DA/SA gun with a super-light first shot. Coincidentally, that's what the LEM is: a DA/SA gun where the DA shot pull weight has been substantially reduced. I was used to a long first trigger pull that reset to a shorter one. With the LEM, the difference is that I trade a heavy first shot and light followup shots for medium weight trigger pulls from start to finish.

If you have a DA revolver, bring it to the range with you next time. Put 50 rounds through it before shooting the LEM. Get used to that long, rolling trigger break. The LEM won't be identical, but odds are you'll find it easier.

JodyH
05-31-2012, 04:33 PM
To piggyback on what Todd brought up.
I found that my revolver shooting and my Kahr shooting improved tremendously after I worked on my LEM shooting.
Treat the LEM like the light DAO it is instead of like a traditional pistol trigger and you'll see more positive results.
Also, try to shoot the LEM exclusively (maybe some light trigger revolver shooting) instead of bouncing between it and other pistols.
The LEM is an odd duck trigger and doesnt play well with others.
I have found that once I learned the LEM, my overall trigger control has been improved significantly.

LOKNLOD
05-31-2012, 04:51 PM
Rather than thinking of the LEM in Glock terms,



I have found that once I learned the LEM, my overall trigger control has been improved significantly.

Trying to shoot the LEM like a Glock was largely unsuccessful; at least in terms of building proficiency.
Going back to a Glock after shooting LEM exclusively and starting to get the hang of it -- even though I don't get near the round count of these guys -- made the Glock trigger feel so much easier.

burntorangefan
05-31-2012, 09:06 PM
Todd and others: appreciate the feedback and help from all of you. One thing is sure, I definitely haven't shot the sig in DA enough to make the transition smooth to lem. I tend to load the magazine, rack it and then shoot 5 or ten rounds in SA and only occasionally go DA/SA as intended. The bottom line I think is that I need to shoot, shoot, shoot and work on smooth rolling and be patient.......

JV_
06-01-2012, 05:42 AM
I tend to load the magazine, rack it and then shoot 5 or ten rounds in SA and only occasionally go DA/SA as intended.When I was shooting my Sig, I did the opposite. I would shoot, decock, shoot, decock .... over and over and over.


The bottom line I think is that I need to shoot, shoot, shoot and work on smooth rolling and be patient....... Patience is the key.