Magpul BAD Lever - Old-Busted?

[rob_s]

It appears that the BAD lever (https://magpul.com/b-a-d-lever-batteryassistdevice-ar15-m4.html) fell out of favor about as fast as it came in. I still have them on a bunch of guns, and am looking to add one to one gun that doesn't have it (I really missed not having one when shooting my PCC at a local action steel match a couple weeks ago). That got me wondering why they went away. Is it due to wider availability of ambi lowers and other devices? Is there a knockoff version that's "better"? is there something people found inherently wrong with them?

I think I was one of the first people to have a pre-productiong, pre-Magpul BAD direct from Travis (maybe not, I dunno) having gotten mine from him in March 2008 (https://www.itstactical.com/shooting/magpul-bad-vs-phase-5-ebr/) and maybe that makes me biased towards them? I think just about every AR I've spent any significant time with since then has had one on it.


pictures from the Magpul link above

https://magpul.com/media/catalog/product/cache/b17374f70a12c2b7e2a5b1c24b27130f/m/a/mag980_blk_1.png

https://magpul.com/media/catalog/product/cache/b17374f70a12c2b7e2a5b1c24b27130f/m/a/mag980_blk_2.jpg

[theJanitor]

Oddly enough, I thought about getting another one because I re-acquired a redi-mod to see if it meets my current needs. The BAD lever works well for that application. I got an early one, as Travis was living near me back in 2008, and one of the other Magpul instructors gave me a couple pre-prototype MS1 slings.

I think the current ambi-lowers that don't have your trigger finger headed to the trigger guard are "safer", but the BAD lever can help with serious speed, if that's the goal

[SecondsCount]

So you're "that guy" ;)

I saw them starting to pop up in carbine clinics and classes, along with the AFG, but I really never saw a good reason to add another thing to my AR. The way that thing attaches and hangs off the gun just seems like a recipe for disaster.

Now I have an LMT and a Knights ambi setup, I like the ambi mag release but still don't use the bolt release, probably out of habit.

[Bergeron]

I tried one out, back several years ago. It felt to me that I had to fish my finger into the trigger guard to use it, particularly when locking the bolt open.

Perhaps there are better ways of using the lever, but I really disliked having to get a finger into the trigger guard, and went with a PDQ lever to gain a more ergonomic setup.

InRange TV B.A.D Lever/P.D.Q. Lever (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4cwMNIogZ4)

The thoughts from InRange TV on the video above (timestamp: 1:30 - 4:00) mirror my thoughts.

[rob_s]

I tried one out, back several years ago. It felt to me that I had to fish my finger into the trigger guard to use it, particularly when locking the bolt open.

Perhaps there are better ways of using the lever, but I really disliked having to get a finger into the trigger guard, and went with a PDQ lever to gain a more ergonomic setup.

InRange TV B.A.D Lever/P.D.Q. Lever (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4cwMNIogZ4)

The thoughts from InRange TV on the video above (timestamp: 1:30 - 4:00) mirror my thoughts.

Every time I see those guys I’m less impressed.

So they used it wrong, had themselves an ND, and it’s the levers fault?

[Default.mp3]

IIRC, the point of the BAD was primarily to lock the bolt back, not to drop the bolt, thus making malfunctions faster to clear. However, due to tolerance stacking and the like, folks were having bolts that locked back intermittently even while not on empty, and also supposedly stressing the bolt catch pins.

[HCountyGuy]

Maybe because the design is stupid, or in this case bad.

Why have something that runs in to the trigger guard that then is meant to be actuated by the trigger finger? Seems like a problem of the same premise of what promoted NDs with Serpas. I thought the trigger finger was ideally meant to have one job: manipulating the trigger. I’m not terribly experienced with the AR platform but I’ve had no problems with hitting the bolt release with my suppprt thumb.

[ASH556]

I always avoided them because I heard from both LAV and Will Larson that they were know to induce malfunctions. IIRC something about the extra weight and premature lockback. Could just as well be an issue of out of spec lowers, springs, and bolt catches though. YMMV.

[Bergeron]

I was really hoping to be able to use, from a full right hand grip, a "straight-down-to-release" and "straight-up-to-lock" motion with the trigger finger.

I found that the release was a "down-and-in" motion towards the trigger guard, and the lock was an "in-and-up". It was that "in" part of the motion that I didn't like.

[LOKNLOD]

Still have one on my redimod equipped gun. Partly because I couldn’t find the right bit to take it off...
They make more sense in That role, but aren’t necessary.
Used right my finger is no more “in the trigger guard” than if I’m using the mag release.

[orionz06]

They were often problematic with medium-normal sized hands.

[Chemsoldier]

I liked using it in Appleseed shoots, especially on stages 2 and 3 of the AQT where time is at a premium, it just seemed easier to get back in position. Instead of another step to hit the bolt release before getting your support elbow back into position, with the BAD you can release the bolt with your trigger finger while you are settling back into position. That is about the only niche where I really liked having it.

[theJanitor]

Still have one on my redimod equipped gun. Partly because I couldn’t find the right bit to take it off...
They make more sense in That role, but aren’t necessary.
Used right my finger is no more “in the trigger guard” than if I’m using the mag release.

I have a Redi-Mod incoming from a buddy, right now. It's been years since I've had one. I ditched it at the time, cause I wanted a lighter, slicker rifle. But the current social condition has got me thinking of more ammo on the gun, and I'm still not sold on the magpul drum. I remember the BAD lever working well in this role, as the Redi-Mod crowds the bolt catch.

[rob_s]

IIRC, the point of the BAD was primarily to lock the bolt back, not to drop the bolt, thus making malfunctions faster to clear. However, due to tolerance stacking and the like, folks were having bolts that locked back intermittently even while not on empty, and also supposedly stressing the bolt catch pins.

Early on I forgives out that the “wobble” that the guys in the video are complaining about is a feature, not a flaw. Folks that tried to shim the thing and/or remove material to try and make it rigidly mounted encountered problems.

In 12 years I’ve never broken a bolt catch pin.


Maybe because the design is stupid, or in this case bad.

Why have something that runs in to the trigger guard that then is meant to be actuated by the trigger finger? Seems like a problem of the same premise of what promoted NDs with Serpas. I thought the trigger finger was ideally meant to have one job: manipulating the trigger. I’m not terribly experienced with the AR platform but I’ve had no problems with hitting the bolt release with my suppprt thumb.

How do you drop the mag?


I always avoided them because I heard from both LAV and Will Larson that they were know to induce malfunctions. IIRC something about the extra weight and premature lockback. Could just as well be an issue of out of spec lowers, springs, and bolt catches though. YMMV.

See above re:cranking down on them and removing the slop.

I do seem to recall some people having issues installing them on lower tier guns, or guns where someone decided that “tight as shit” was the best approach to parts fitting (like a Les Baer 1911).

[RevolverRob]

I tried one, but my short-to-medium length fingers found that I kept hitting the thing when going for the mag release and simultaneously dropping the mag and the bolt. Which didn't help make my mag changes any quicker.

I probably could have trained around it, but I found that it was just easier to go to a palm slap or thumb push with my off (left) hand. And I trained my brain to do that and I haven't bothered to go back since.

But then again, I'm one of those guys who does the verboten, sometimes, when engaging closer targets. I hit the bolt catch with my off hand thumb and wrap the hand around the...gasp...mag well.

[navyman8903]

People who love them, love them. People who hate them, hate them. I've found if you don't pay attention to how it actually works, or proper installation, you're going to have a bad time. I've used them for years without a single stoppage or malfunction. Never had one break or fall off. I've got like 6 of them now.....All are good to go. If it works for you great, if it doesn't, keep it movin.

[Mark D]

I have one sitting around somewhere, unused and never mounted. I realized I didn't want to be fingering the trigger area unless I'm actually fingering the trigger, with everything that entails (conscious decision to shoot, etc).

But it sounds like some people really like 'em, and can use them safely. Different strokes, I guess.

[StraitR]

They were often problematic with medium-normal sized hands.

Agreed. Having medium hands, I found them more cumbersome than useful.

[UNM1136]

I have been running one since they came out. On a Colt LE6930 with a RediMag. I am suppressing an upper for this gun this year, and those parts aren't going anywhere. In carbine classes I AI'd for the largest agency in the state the head instructor always had me demo it because he was a believer, too. Zero problems with NDs or premature lockbacks. I have medium to large hands with long fingers.

pat

[TCinVA]

They tended to prevent a lot of guns from locking open on empty.

I received one gratis at a class I attended where Costa brought a big bunch of swag, including AFGs and BAD levers. This is back when both were new on the market.

Almost everybody put one on their gun. Almost everybody took it off their gun shortly thereafter when guns stopped locking open on empty, guns locked open with rounds still in the magazine, when they hung up on gear, etc.

It was nice for locking the bolt open quickly, but the downsides of making the guns behave in unpredictable ways overshadowed that rather infrequent need.

They seem to work fine on some guns, but not others. My own pretty new 6920 in that group at the class included in the number I've seen over the years that have problems. So I've seen no need to introduce that uncertainty into any of my other guns.

You do you, but I don't want them on anything I own.

[OlongJohnson]

I've used several Armalite LPKs because of their unique bolt stop.

https://www.armalite.com/SACItem.aspx?Item=EX6575

It is flat and longitudinally serrated all the way down to the lower part, which makes it somewhat easier to manually activate the bolt hold open function without increasing the snaggability of anything. It also eliminates the area where GI-style bolt stops get thin, so it's a little beefier, not that there's an epidemic of bolt stops breaking there.

I'm trying out a Geissele, but haven't made up my mind on which I prefer. My default is to lean toward less stuff hanging off the gun unless there's a really good reason for it.

[Wondering Beard]

I feel wary of anything that requires me to put my finger inside the trigger guard for something other than pulling the trigger.

[rob_s]

I feel wary of anything that requires me to put my finger inside the trigger guard for something other than pulling the trigger.

Good thing the BAD doesn’t require that.

[Wondering Beard]

Good thing the BAD doesn’t require that.


Ok, it doesn't literally require my trigger finger to enter the trigger guard. but, for me at least, it is very much the same movement that would bring my trigger finger inside the trigger guard and that makes me wary.

My experience with the BAD lever is minimal (someone else's gun) and that index finger movement was not something I felt comfortable doing.

I should have been more precise the first time.

[CleverNickname]

I feel wary of anything that requires me to put my finger inside the trigger guard for something other than pulling the trigger.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pis8lSJ69T4

You can do just the opposite to lock the bolt back, also without ever putting your finger in the trigger guard.

[navyman8903]

They tended to prevent a lot of guns from locking open on empty.

I received one gratis at a class I attended where Costa brought a big bunch of swag, including AFGs and BAD levers. This is back when both were new on the market.

Almost everybody put one on their gun. Almost everybody took it off their gun shortly thereafter when guns stopped locking open on empty, guns locked open with rounds still in the magazine, when they hung up on gear, etc.

It was nice for locking the bolt open quickly, but the downsides of making the guns behave in unpredictable ways overshadowed that rather infrequent need.

They seem to work fine on some guns, but not others. My own pretty new 6920 in that group at the class included in the number I've seen over the years that have problems. So I've seen no need to introduce that uncertainty into any of my other guns.

You do you, but I don't want them on anything I own.

I have never experienced that. I'm not sure how that would happen.

[theJanitor]

I just the redi-mod installed. I’m likely going to go without a BAD, this go-round. But you can see from this pic how crowded that area gets with a redi-mod. The BAD works really well here

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200619/247f1390eec842ec49cb2398ebab614c.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TCinVA]

I just the redi-mod installed. I’m likely going to go without a BAD, this go-round. But you can see from this pic how crowded that area gets with a redi-mod. The BAD works really well here

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200619/247f1390eec842ec49cb2398ebab614c.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That was the best use case I saw for it. If you are going to use a Redi-Mag it makes sense. Redi-mags were quite the sensation for a while. Don't seem to be used much these days. They make some sense on a patrol rifle.

[UNM1136]

That was the best use case I saw for it. If you are going to use a Redi-Mag it makes sense. Redi-mags were quite the sensation for a while. Don't seem to be used much these days. They make some sense on a patrol rifle.

Yeah, when I teach I bang the hell out of that drum. The SWAT dudes complain about rifle weight, the patrol guys complain about carrying reloads. Very, very few will run a Redi-Mag or Redi-mod. Most make excuses as to why they won't. If I have my druthers all patrol rifles will have a Redi-Mag first, and a BAD lever optional.

Even my mentor poo-pooed my Redi-Mag, telling me a lot of SF guys at the time liked it, but the JSOC guys he trained eschewed them. 13 years later, unless prohibited, my patrol rifle WILL have a Redi-Mang and a BAD lever. My mentor is likely right, he is a USPSA GM on the Wilson Combat team, and I am not. I am just setting up guns for patrol guys who would rather do anything than train and shoot.

pat

[Shawn Dodson]

I thought the trigger finger was ideally meant to have one job: manipulating the trigger. The magazine release is manipulated with the trigger finger.

I've had a B.A.D. on all my ARs for probably 10 years now. I use it just to lock open the bolt, I work the charging handle like Jeff Gonzales does to release the bolt. So far I've had zero problems or incidents.

[BehindBlueI's]

That was the best use case I saw for it. If you are going to use a Redi-Mag it makes sense. Redi-mags were quite the sensation for a while. Don't seem to be used much these days. They make some sense on a patrol rifle.

I have never seen one. We have tac uniforms so I just keep a spare mag in the mag pocket of my cargo pocket. When I had a fixed stock I kept a spare in a stock pouch, which is how it was issued to me.

I know it's not the most tactical way and certainly a slow reload, but honestly I don't see a realistic scenario of me burning through a mag and needing a fast reload as an urban/suburban police officer. I do see a lot of reasons for weight reduction.

[Andy T]

I too tend to favor BAD levers - been running one for around 10 years. No issues with premature lock back. However, they were all installed on Colt pre-ban lowers.
The only concern is an anecdote I saw on one of the forums. A dropped rifle caused BAD to break in such a way that the bolt lock became inoperable. However, I do carry the BAD wrench inside the pistol grip just in case.

[rob_s]

Here’s an interesting alternative...

56285

56286

[Andy T]

Is this the "automagic one" that drops the bolt once a loaded magazine is inserted?


Here’s an interesting alternative...

56285

56286

[rob_s]

Is this the "automagic one" that drops the bolt once a loaded magazine is inserted?

no, it's something the Boonie Packer designed way back when, that I did some T&E on for them, but I'm actually not sure if they ever released it. IIRC this lever only holds the bolt open, doesn't allow for dropping the bolt, but takes the stress off the paddle as it's attached to the receiver and also gets much tighter to the top of the inside of the trigger guard.

[theJanitor]

Here’s an interesting alternative...


Do you happen to have installed pics of this device? You've piqued my curiosity

[rob_s]

Is this the "automagic one" that drops the bolt once a loaded magazine is inserted?


no, it's something the Boonie Packer designed way back when, that I did some T&E on for them, but I'm actually not sure if they ever released it. IIRC this lever only holds the bolt open, doesn't allow for dropping the bolt, but takes the stress off the paddle as it's attached to the receiver and also gets much tighter to the top of the inside of the trigger guard.


Do you happen to have installed pics of this device? You've piqued my curiosity

Looks like I remembered wrong, it's for dropping the bolt not holding it open. The production version is a little different than my old prototype.

https://www.redi-mag.com/product/redi-release-bolt-closing-lever/

[Xrslug]

I’ve got one of these on my scoped AR set up for national match / service rifle competition:
https://troyind.com/products/ambidextrous-bolt-release

For the NM setup you need to be able to drop the bolt with your strong hand because you’re slung up prone. With iron sights you can reach through the carry handle and hit the release but that stopped being an option with the move to scopes.

It’s been a few years but I seem to remember when I was researching this that people had fewer issues with the Troy than with the BAD lever. I think I just preferred that it wasn’t polymer. Works fine for my purposes but it’s a pretty narrow window of experience.

The Redi-Mag option that Rob just linked to actually looks better to me than either the Troy or BAD because it seems to mount more securely and takes up less room in the trigger guard. I don’t like that aspect of the Troy although I’ve never noticed it being an issue in practice.