The Ken Nelson Recoil- Control Grip: I like it!

[randyflycaster]

I have always pulled my shots to the side. I never cared for the death grip, as I don't find it an enjoyable way to shoot, and I am not up for doing grip-stengthening exercies.

I watched this video and changed my grip. Also, I now know I was milking the gun when I pulled the trigger. For now, I am keeping my support hand fingertips just off the grip.

Bottom line, my shooting has dramatically improved.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH9GdJ6kwS0

Randy

[awp_101]

Interesting. As someone with hand issues I'll have to give this a try, thanks!

[CalAlumnus]

I have also been experimenting with grip concepts from TPC videos. They seem to emphasize the reduced fingertip pressure, and a focus on increasing forward and backward pressure—some push-pull elements, without becoming Weaver-y. The also focus on the importance of using your wrist, arm, and chest to aid in recoil.

I then watched videos from others, including those who advocate a “death grip.” And in paying more attention to the details, I’m not sure there’s a huge difference. It’s just that TPC explains it differently.

There’s a lot of talk about “gripping as hard as you can without shaking,” but less focus on where to apply pressure and how to exert it. I interpreted that as something like “make a tight fist with a pistol grip inside it.” In that interpretation, the force is applied indiscriminately by all parts of the fingers, and only by the muscles of the hand.

The TPC approach gets more detailed. Strong hand force comes from the second segment of the fingers pressing the gun back into the heel of the hand. Support hand cammed way forward, and wedged almost on the back of the backstrap. Inward pressure from both wrists and arms, elbows flared up slightly, as if you were cracking a walnut. Somewhat less “fist pressure,” which improves trigger finger dexterity.

[Duke]

Clearly this gentleman has found a way around his physical limitations. And that’s excellent.


I don’t quite understand choosing to avoid gaining grip strength if medically able.



Like overall fitness and financial stability - a stronger grip would likely amplify all your abilities in daily tasks. But whatever works

[randyflycaster]

I agree that stronger grip strength is a plus. I am just too lazy to do the needed exercises.

[Duke]

I agree that stronger grip strength is a plus. I am just too lazy to do the needed exercises.

I’m with you on grip work alone. That junk is boring

Dead lifts with no straps and pull up negatives are less boring and help a lot

[CalAlumnus]

I’m reminded of this thread from GJM with a similar topic. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34573-Pretty-sure-I-have-been-gripping-too-hard

[RJ]

TPC is definitely on my short list of training. I’d scheduled a class but had to request a refund (which was cheerfully provided, no questions asked).

On topic: Very interested as I have medium strength, and am forever shooting low and away on doubles or Bill Drills. I usually try and grip harder with my support hand (so much, I usually take my wedding ring off to shoot) but it kinda hurts when I smoosh my strong hand.

So I watched the video, but am unclear exactly what he’s saying? (I am hearing a lot of wind buffetting, so it might be me) Can someone break it down, Horsey-Ducky level?

[GJM]

Just to be clear, more grip strength is better than less grip strength. The question is whether you are gripping so hard, with whatever grip strength you have, that it negatively impacts how you press the trigger. I wager that the 80/20 rule applies, with at least 80 percent of shooters needing to grip harder, and 20 percent needing to back off some. It also goes without saying that you want to use the proper technique to grip the pistol, so you are getting the maximum benefit of the grip you are applying.

[YVK]

Clearly this gentleman has found a way around his physical limitations. And that’s excellent.


I don’t quite understand choosing to avoid gaining grip strength if medically able.



Not a binary thing. TPC's claim to fame is not what Ken can do with a gun. It is getting two pre-teen girls to become the dominant forces in USPSA and then punching M/GM cards younger than any other non-gender-fluid woman. I do believe that they think and talk through biomechanics better than anybody else. My problem with their stuff that I find it hard to apply, including some things that were mentioned on this video.

[CCT125US]

When shooting SHO, I flag my thumb as shown. However, I have also observed that when shooting at distance, freestyle, if my thumb is flagged the gun can pivot around that strong point. Meaning shots can trend left.

This is a technique that serves me well when shooting SHO, but not ideal for freestyle.

[Cory]

I think Surf has explained the grip far better than I could. If you haven't read this I highly recommend checking it out.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13673-Thoughts-on-the-grip

-Cory

[BigD]

When shooting SHO, I flag my thumb as shown. However, I have also observed that when shooting at distance, freestyle, if my thumb is flagged the gun can pivot around that strong point. Meaning shots can trend left.

This is a technique that serves me well when shooting SHO, but not ideal for freestyle.


Very slightly related, I'm bemused by the trend to stipple the frame where the thumbs would fall. You can get exactly zero downward pressure there, no matter which fancy stippling pattern you use, so any force will only serve to push the pistol laterally since there's nothing on other side to counter the pressure. (Gas pedal would change things, obv.)

Brian Enos recommend floating your thumbs and not even have them touch the frame for this exact reason - to not drive the gun toward your strong side.

[Doc_Glock]

Not a binary thing. TPC's claim to fame is not what Ken can do with a gun. It is getting two pre-teen girls to become the dominant forces in USPSA and then punching M/GM cards younger than any other non-gender-fluid woman. I do believe that they think and talk through biomechanics better than anybody else. My problem with their stuff that I find it hard to apply, including some things that were mentioned on this video.

I seem to remember you or someone saying those girls demo a TPC 24 with a hit factor of like 16? That is crazy impressive for someone who probably has half my grip strength.

[RJ]

TPC is definitely on my short list of training. I’d scheduled a class but had to request a refund (which was cheerfully provided, no questions asked).

On topic: Very interested as I have medium strength, and am forever shooting low and away on doubles or Bill Drills. I usually try and grip harder with my support hand (so much, I usually take my wedding ring off to shoot) but it kinda hurts when I smoosh my strong hand.

So I watched the video, but am unclear exactly what he’s saying? (I am hearing a lot of wind buffetting, so it might be me) Can someone break it down, Horsey-Ducky level?

Still trying to figure the technique proposed in the OP.

Should I take my strong hand and apply anti-recoil torque at the bottom front of the grip with my Ring and Pinky fingers, at the same time forcing up into the beaver tail with my strong hand web?

[YVK]

Should I take my strong hand and apply anti-recoil torque at the bottom front of the grip with my Ring and Pinky fingers, at the same time forcing up into the beaver tail with my strong hand web?

That's what it suggests.

No disrespect to Ken and TPC, they are good, I took two classes from them, but I have tried and assessed pressure on the bottom of a frontstrap advice as a pile of junk. This is not new and not unique to them. I've heard about it many years ago and from more than one place. Intuitively and from physics standpoint it makes total sense, simple math of leverages. Practically, if you want to additionally tense up your ring and pinky, you'll tense up the whole grip. This will create (has created for me) more problems than solutions. Most of us have difficulty isolating trigger finger alone, I can't imagine one can isolate all five fingers in three groups of different states of tension. Getting high on a gun is a universal truth though, so I just stick with it.

[RJ]

I think Surf has explained the grip far better than I could. If you haven't read this I highly recommend checking it out.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13673-Thoughts-on-the-grip

-Cory

Good stuff Cory. Surf’s ‘hook and curl’ suggestion for increasing space between finger and frame is interesting.


That's what it suggests.

No disrespect to Ken and TPC, they are good, I took two classes from them, but I have tried and assessed pressure on the bottom of a frontstrap advice as a pile of junk. This is not new and not unique to them. I've heard about it many years ago and from more than one place. Intuitively and from physics standpoint it makes total sense, simple math of leverages. Practically, if you want to additionally tense up your ring and pinky, you'll tense up the whole grip. This will create (has created for me) more problems than solutions. Most of us have difficulty isolating trigger finger alone, I can't imagine one can isolate all five fingers in three groups of different states of tension. Getting high on a gun is a universal truth though, so I just stick with it.

Thanks. Maybe the OP could give his take on it, I genuinely was unsure what was being suggested in the video.

[RJ]

I have always pulled my shots to the side. I never cared for the death grip, as I don't find it an enjoyable way to shoot, and I am not up for doing grip-stengthening exercies.

I watched this video and changed my grip.

Randy

Could you elaborate on what this change was? I watched the video and might have missed it.

[randyflycaster]

I now add forward pressure on the top of the back of the grip with my strong hand. With my support hand I add a little backward pressure with my ring finger (and pinky if my grip is long enough). I keep my support hand fingertips off the grip to help me break the habit of milking the gun. I guess you can call this a variation of a push/pull technique, with the main difference being where on the gun I am pushing and pulling: Pushing high on the back of the grip, pulling low on the front of the grip.

To each his own. I've been struggling with my pistol shooting since moving to Montana over 4 years ago. I took lessons, but I was still pulling my shots. Now that I using Ken Nelson's grip I am shooting much, much better, without crushing the gun, which I do not find very enjoyable.

Randy

[frozentundra]

Could you elaborate on what this change was? I watched the video and might have missed it.

To me it sounded a bit like Paul Sharp 's take on grip and recoil control. I think he was heavily influenced by D.R. Middlebrooks. I'll try to insert a YouTube video playlist. I think video 15 of the playlist really shows it in detail. Here is the direct link to video 15 in case the entire playlist doesn't link with the embedded video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDXlzvfwlY&list=PLtbs7wd5C-URhwiK2-y0Qn1ZED9qL9Ifj&index=15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDXlzvfwlY&list=PLtbs7wd5C-URhwiK2-y0Qn1ZED9qL9Ifj&index=15

By way of summery, as I understand it, this has to do with visualizing the handgun grip as a fulcrum and lever. The "fulcrum" would be the area high on the "tang" of the grip. The "lever" becomes more mechanically useful by applying force to the bottom of the front strap with the pinkie finger area. Concentrating force primarily on these two points has the effect of chocking (as in wheel chock) the flipping movement of the gun.

It sounds very similar to what is being discussed in the OP's video. I think the idea is that just gripping HARD isn't as productive as applying the force into these particular vectors and then just letting the gun track as it will. It seems a slightly different point of emphasis than what Bob Vogel (apply torque as high and forward as possible to the sides of the grip by rolling the elbows up/out) or Mike Seeklander (clam-shell the grip like trying to break a walnut between your palms and get "behind" the grip).

At least that is how I understand it.

These days I seem to be more accurate by focusing primaraly on "Seeklander" with a strong secondary focus on "Paul Sharp". I can probably shoot faster with "Vogel" if I'm using a Glock, but my consistent accuracy at distance seems to suffer, and I tend to get a little wrist pain when focusing on this force vector.

I don't think this stuff is a one size fits all proposition. People are built different, and they are at different stages of development as individual shooters. Changing how you focus the force vectors in your grip may be a developmental process that continues throughout your shooting life. We will all grow older and have injuries eventually, after all.

Edit to add: The embedded video didn't seem to create the playlist 'Paul Sharp Recoil Mitigation'. Here is a link that should work to view all the videos in order.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ZqTK2RcXg&list=PLtbs7wd5C-URhwiK2-y0Qn1ZED9qL9Ifj&index=1

[ASH556]

These "solutions" need to be viewed in the context from which they were derived and also in light of what tradeoffs they bring. I can do a lot of things to achieve a "flat shooting" pistol that are incredibly detrimental to my ability to hit anything much past 10 or 15 yds. Solution to one problem that introduces another problem.

[rca90gsx]

Shooting low on doubles etc is a lot of times to much strong hand tension. It can come from to much grip pressure, pushing into the back of the grip etc, squeezing with entire hand.



Still trying to figure the technique proposed in the OP.

Should I take my strong hand and apply anti-recoil torque at the bottom front of the grip with my Ring and Pinky fingers, at the same time forcing up into the beaver tail with my strong hand web?

[Cory]

I recommend reading breakthrough marksmenship by Ben Stoeger. He explains grip in simple but very clear terms.

-Cory

[randyflycaster]

I have read 4 books on pistol marksmanship, and have watched countless number of shooting videos. I have taken several shooting lessons and have tried every grip possible. My shooting did not really improve all that much until I tried Ken Nelson's techniques.

I see no reason to go back to techniques that weren't working. I feel I am finally out of the shooting wilderness.

We all have to do what works for us.

Randy

[Packy]

I do a Milspec Mojo grip. I cant stand Ken explaining things.

Sent from my SM-P205 using Tapatalk

[CCT125US]

This description / technique by PVDJR did alot for me. Not sure how long I've been using it (in my eJournal) but I find it useful.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/02/different-approach-handgun-recoil-management/

It seems to accomplish what Ken is talking about, but from a different path,.

I can see on video when I do vs when I don't. For me, it's easy effort.

[Backspin]

I arrived at a very similar grip technique as Ken Nelson after constant experimentation. I will agree that Paul Sharp’s / DR Middlebrook’s technique (as I understand it) is similar. Once I dialed my grip in, my shooting got much more consistent, especially under speed.

I can see why people can be frustrated with applying Ken’s suggestions as I found how one applies the grip tips may vary from gun to gun (grip size / grip angle variations), and shooter to shooter (due to hand size).

When I was trying to describe my technique to a class of prospective firearms instructors, I had a student brilliantly distill my technique in a very concise description: “Tear the gun apart from the bottom up and from the front to back.” Doing that gets me pretty close to an optimal grip.

What I’ve found to be very important in a grip/stance technique is limiting the wrists’ downward movement. By mitigating the wrists’ ability to pull the gun down, the more consistent return from recoil I can achieve and the less likely I will anticipate the shot low.

I’ve found arm bend will also affect one’s ability to lock the wrists. Locking out the arms allows for the most unlocked wrist position (basically your wrists need to be straight, thus having the most up/down range of motion, to keep the gun on target). How much arm bend to apply for optimal results seems to depend a lot on the grip angle/circumference.

The longer I study about shooting techniques, the less dogmatic I get about stuff. Many different paths to get to the same conclusion, as well as different priorities in terms of what aspects of technique matter most.

[GearFondler]

This description / technique by PVDJR did alot for me. Not sure how long I've been using it (in my eJournal) but I find it useful.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/02/different-approach-handgun-recoil-management/

It seems to accomplish what Ken is talking about, but from a different path,.

I can see on video when I do vs when I don't. For me, it's easy effort.I like that... It feels easier and more natural than rolling out my elbows. I'll definitely be trying that out with live fire.

[runcible]

While I don't particularly disagree with the content of the video, the articulation is very different than how I'd approach such things (e.g. "camming into the gun" - are we talking about the web of the hand, the thumb? Who can say...). As with other snapshots focused on a specific topic, it's heartening to see other desirable nuances present - like that upcocked thumb on the shooting hand, even though the focus seemed to be on the web of the hand and the press of the pinkie.


GearFondler,

Pardon, but isn't the PVDJR demoed technique an example of in-part rolling out the elbows, at least in the parlance as I would use?

[CCT125US]

Like many things, details can get lost in translation. Is the technique positional vs muscular? Does one cause the action of the other, in a productive way? The PVDJ video just clicked for me and my overall technique.

Back to the issue of being lost in translation. Several years back I was fortunate to spend the day with Vogel, he discussed his grip, demoed both dry and live fire. Checked the placement, and muscle engagement of my hand on my gun. The technique, while obviously valid and highly effective for him, simply didn't work for me. Not for my lack of understanding, or Vogel's ability to communicate, no internet to translate, it just did not work for me. There is no one way.

[GearFondler]

GearFondler,

Pardon, but isn't the PVDJR demoed technique an example of in-part rolling out the elbows, at least in the parlance as I would use?

While it sounds like the same thing, it is not. Both techniques create inward palm pressure but the force is generated differently... Originally from the elbows, transferring down to the wrist, or with the PVDJR technique simply from the wrist/lower forearm itself leaving the elbows out of the equation. It's a subtle difference but to me, in dry fire at least, leaving the elbows more relaxed feels better and more natural, but I have yet to try it on the range to see if it makes a difference.

[CCT125US]

... but I have yet to try it on the range to see if it makes a difference.

Looking forward to your thoughts on it. If I may suggest / request an objective measurement of what you discover. I often do a hit factor drill on a B8 at 7 yards. I draw and fire 3, record time, repeat 4 additional times for a total of 5 reps. I add the cumulative time and divide points scored by that (pts/time). It provides me with a consistent way to track, measure and evaluate subtle changes in technique over time.

Measured against baseline technique is useful. Give it some honest reps. One of my issues when evaluating a slight change is being too focused on the "new", and forgetting other things like trigger control or sights..

[GearFondler]

One of my issues when evaluating a slight change is being too focused on the "new", and forgetting other things like trigger control or sights..

Sigh... I SO know what you mean. Glad it's not just my brain, lol.

[runcible]

While it sounds like the same thing, it is not. Both techniques create inward palm pressure but the force is generated differently... Originally from the elbows, transferring down to the wrist, or with the PVDJR technique simply from the wrist/lower forearm itself leaving the elbows out of the equation. It's a subtle difference but to me, in dry fire at least, leaving the elbows more relaxed feels better and more natural, but I have yet to try it on the range to see if it makes a difference.

I follow. I haven't been around PVDJR in a while, but the last few times I watched him shoot, he definitely had a pronounced roll of the elbows - most particularly his support-side. A quick google shows that to be depicted in many still photos.

I offer the opinion that it's the same muscular engagement, but less pronounced, as depicted with the range sticks; and that once one begins shooting and having active resistance against which to work, the only differentiation is in the degree to which the elbows rise+roll from neutral. If one is chasing an absolutely flat management of recoil, then one must exert more such tension; and the elbows will express accordingly.

[Irelander]

One of the things I noticed in Ken's video in the OP is that his G43 is wearing a huge mag extension. That would make it much easier to get the bottom of grip pressure he talks about. I find his technique easy to do with a full grip, but not with a subcompact and flush mag. That is what I mainly carry.

I do find that flagging my SH thumb helps get that high grip upward pressure Ken describes. I don't see how it is possible without flagging the thumb.

I'm enjoying the resources mentioned in this thread. Thanks guys!