300 Blackout is stupid...convince me I'm wrong

[ASH556]

Yesterday I listened to the Colion Noir + Kevin Brittingham podcast they recorded together last month. Of course there was a lot of 300 Blackout talk and comparing it to .223/5.56. Kevin told again what I've heard him say for years: It was developed as a replacement for the MP5-SD, subsonic, etc. Cool, whatever, got it. Then he jumps into the "and switch to supers and now you're effective to 400yds" and that's the part where I feel like everyone jumps the shark.

In my experience actually shooting guns, having your sighting system zeroed to the load you're shooting and then knowing where to hold to account for distance, or even to account for a different load is CRITICAL to successful hits. Every time I've tried to go down the 300 Blackout rabbit hole, the zero thing is always the sticking point. As far as I can tell from looking at ballistic charts and reading others' experience, there's not a good zero that works for subs and supers.

For instance, if there was something like, 25yd Subsonic zero = 100yd Supersonic zero, and then holds that were something like 50yd sub/200yd super, 75yd sub/300yd super, 100yd sub/400yd super...that would make sense and be manageable. But everything I've seen says you have to pick either subs or supers and then zero for that load because they're not close enough. Well, that just kills the whole "oh yeah, just toss in a mag of supers and suddenly you're good to 400yds."

If I'm wrong, tell me and I'll try to understand.

[RevolverRob]

1) Don't listen to Colion Noir and/or Kevin Brittingham talk. They are both intelligent men, who have sniffed too many of their own farts at this point.

2) .300 BLK just needs the right optic (https://www.recoilweb.com/wilcox-boss-optic-136968.html) - to be able to switch on the fly from subs and supersonics.

No you're right that the zero's don't work out well. A BDC reticle and a 100y zero for supers kind of gets you there. Using one of the lower hold-over dots for subs at close range - 100y super zero, will get you a half-inch high at 25 with subs (careful note: Hornady's 190 Sub-X load, is the one I'm referring to a 225-grain traditional sub will be farther away). At 100y with subs, you need ~5" of hold over (which according to Hornady's ballistic calculator is around what you'd hold over for between 225-250y with a 110-grain GMX.

That's basically the idea behind the 300BO ACOG - https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/ta31-c-100412

Leupold also has a reticle that mates a sub and super hold over - https://www.leupold.com/reticles/reticle-300-blackout-126

In theory you can get close with the ACSS reticle - too - https://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-paralow-hs503g-red-dot-sight-acss-reticle (which is highly similar to the ACOG).

Of course the BOSS 300/BOSS-E is the one you want, a shift on the fly with proper zeros, built in IR and visible lasers - fucking sweet...Can be yours for just $4500 this fall (Wilcox is releasing their first civilian legal version this fall).

[Doc_Glock]

Don’t use subs at all.

Problem solved.

[ASH556]

Maybe I should also clarify why I would even consider a 300 Blackout and what I hope to gain from having one:

1. I already have an SDN-6 can just sitting in the safe
2. Subsonic suppressed gets close to Hollywood quiet and is cool/fun
3. Shorter barrel (and overall package with the suppressor) than my 10.3" 5.56
4. Some perception of better hunting performance than .223/5.56. That said, I've killed several whitetail with a 62gr Gold Dot including a 200lb buck...no issues, one shot at 80yds, 20yd expiration.

[rjohnson4405]

The true value I see in 300 BO is better than pistol terminal performance in an AR pistol with a 8" or shorter barrel, that is reliable, and a lot less blast/noise than a 223.

I have 0 interest in subs.

I'm also not interested in 9mm PCCs that recoil more than an AR while giving up a lot in range and terminal performance.

[ASH556]

Don’t use subs at all.

Problem solved.

That train of thought is why I don't have one. Don't use subs? Then what does it gain me over my .223 Gold Dots. Nothing...forget Blackout and move on.

[shane45]

I would think that it gets you a shorter barrel,which may not be of value to you.

[rob_s]

you gotta kinda leave the subsonic thing behind, the way Silvers and everyone else did pretty early on.

But it's still stupid ;)

[Rex G]

My #1 reason for wanting sub-sonics is relatively quieter training shots, while on private land, in a place where shooting is reasonably OK, but where the sharp cracks of super-sonics are a bit rude. .223/5.56 is obnoxious, when fired from short barrels. POI is not as important as shooting the good-sized groups. I can leave the optic set for my preferred 125-ish-grain defensive load. (I have yet to settle upon a defensive load, and have yet to install iron sights. I am only just getting starting with 300 BLK/AAC.)

My secondary reason for using a heavier-bullet 300 BLK would be to use it for a specific pest or game/meat animal. That is going to be a pre-planned endeavor, so either re-zeroing the optic, or swapping to a different optic, makes sense.

300 BLK/AAC, in short barrels, was why I became interested in AR-based pistols. I simply don’t want a .223/5.56 pistol. I am not all that interested in AR15 rifles, for that matter, though I believe in the concept of every able-bodied person owning a sample of the nation’s military rifle, and having a working knowledge of its use. I was a “carbine unit” officer, for a few years, at work, but I sold my Colt AR15A2 Govt Carbine to an colleague, with younger eyes, when that too-close front sight “grew fur.” I have a BCM Lightweight Middy in the safe, that I bought to get re-certified to carry a patrol rifle, after optics were finally allowed on the patrol carbines. I missed a window of opportunity to re-certify with the 16-hour “update” class, and never managed to enroll in one of the too-few 40-hour certification classes, to start again. (No big deal, as I worked straight nights, when I preferred the shotgun, anyway.)

A 300 BLK/ACC AR pistol is something that can be toted, loaded, in a discreet package, anywhere I can legally tote a loaded handgun, but can act like a rifle, on short notice. Many places restrict loaded long guns, and, toting a long gun is an intentional act, that folks tend to notice.

Edited to add: I may yet decide upon a different “bag gun,” than a 300 BLK AR pistol. I am not choosing this hill, upon which to die. This is, however, my current project, as I accumulate enough of a couple of different defensive loads.

[RevolverRob]

I mean, if it's going to be pretty much a range toy with subs or you're going to use subs for a dedicated hunt - why not just zero two optics on LaRue mounts and swap them out when you swap ammo?

You have to run different mags with the long-bulleted sub-sonics, anyways. So you just have a "sub-sonic kit" with the gun.

Or you can do what a lot of folks are doing, use some kind of secondary sighting system zero'ed for sub-sonics. For instance a 12-o'clock mounted visible laser or flip up irons.

Between the choices of: BDC reticles, laser, iron sights, or two optics mounted on QDs, you can find a solution to run subs and supers on the same gun that doesn't cost 4500 bucks. It's really just whether you want to compromise in those ways.
___

Still though, I want one of those Wilcox optics. I'm hoping they do a version without the IR modes and IR laser/illuminator - to drop the price by about 1.5gs.

[ASH556]

I mean, if it's going to be pretty much a range toy with subs or you're going to use subs for a dedicated hunt - why not just zero two optics on LaRue mounts and swap them out when you swap ammo?

You have to run different mags with the long-bulleted sub-sonics, anyways. So you just have a "sub-sonic kit" with the gun.

Or you can do what a lot of folks are doing, use some kind of secondary sighting system zero'ed for sub-sonics. For instance a 12-o'clock mounted visible laser or flip up irons.

Between the choices of: BDC reticles, laser, iron sights, or two optics mounted on QDs, you can find a solution to run subs and supers on the same gun that doesn't cost 4500 bucks. It's really just whether you want to compromise in those ways.
___

Still though, I want one of those Wilcox optics. I'm hoping they do a version without the IR modes and IR laser/illuminator - to drop the price by about 1.5gs.
I guess because I like to set and forget stuff and then have peace of mind that it's 100% GTG when I need it.

The ACOG seems like the best solution for what I'd want it for. At the same time, is it worth it to spend a few grand on a sub-sonic hunting rifle and range toy? Probably not. Especially since I bow hunt too. Talk about quiet ;)

Thanks for "taking me to no" as they say in the sales world.

I guess now I need to sell a couple suppressors because there are 2 lingering ideas that always come up for me: a 9mm sub gun (pistol, carbine, MCX, whatever) and a 300 Blackout, and it's mostly driven by the fact that I have an EVO-9 and SDN-6 just sitting in the safe. When I think about building the guns for them, though, I always reach the same conclusion: don't need = don't want.

[Casual Friday]

I was glad to come to my senses during the early days of the big PDW thread. I'm glad the barrel I ordered was back ordered because it gave me time to think it through and realize that 300 BLK doesn't make a lot of sense for me.

[Brian T]

For sub-sonic use, I was thinking about a front BUIS that accepts a USGI post, and installing an XS Sights tritium stripe. See if I can find a way to use the tube of the mounted Aimpoint as my rear.

Green stripe for Subs

Red dot for supers.

[RevolverRob]

I came to the conclusion, that if one has any investment in 5.56 ARs they probably won't be super well served by a .300BO, aside from super niche use, because the performance gap isn't huge. Unless you're shooting pretty good sized deer or hogs regularly with an AR - you don't gain a lot. Blackout has a shorter effective range (realistically for hunting it's a 250-yard and closer gun for clean kills) and is more expensive to shoot. The ballistic coefficients of .30 cal bullets aren't any better than what you find in 5.56. So you don't get a flatter trajectory. You really just get a heavier, larger caliber bullet, with less noise overall.

The caliber seems to shine the best in barrels <12" in length, where the combination of low case volume + magnum pistol or shotgun powders can drive the heavier bullets to a reasonable speed. That and if you hand load - you can pick from among about eight million different bullet types, okay not that many, but Midway USA lists 309 different bullets in the 0.308" diameter (vs. 194 in 0.224").

For me - I don't own anything in 5.56 anymore and got rid of everything except a couple of lowers, some 20-round Thermolds, and a few assorted parts. One of the lowers is assembled into my 9mm gun - The other is sitting - waiting - for something (Brownells BRN-180 in .300BO, if I am honest). Bringing a Sig into the fold isn't changing anything for me, since I have so little invested.

If you just want something silly quiet - 158-grain Fiocchi 9mm through a can.

[texasaggie2005]

I mean, if it's going to be pretty much a range toy with subs or you're going to use subs for a dedicated hunt - why not just zero two optics on LaRue mounts and swap them out when you swap ammo?

You have to run different mags with the long-bulleted sub-sonics, anyways. So you just have a "sub-sonic kit" with the gun.

Or you can do what a lot of folks are doing, use some kind of secondary sighting system zero'ed for sub-sonics. For instance a 12-o'clock mounted visible laser or flip up irons.

Between the choices of: BDC reticles, laser, iron sights, or two optics mounted on QDs, you can find a solution to run subs and supers on the same gun that doesn't cost 4500 bucks. It's really just whether you want to compromise in those ways.
___

Still though, I want one of those Wilcox optics. I'm hoping they do a version without the IR modes and IR laser/illuminator - to drop the price by about 1.5gs.

Aimpoint's new CompM5b has a solution. Probably cheaper than two optics.


It’s a 2 MOA red dot sight which incorporates Bullet Drop Compensation via interchangeable turrets for various ammunition. These can be tailor made for specific ammunition. The red dot sight also offers wind or lead compensation adjustment.

(https://soldiersystems.net/2020/01/20/aimpoint-releases-compm5b-for-worldwide-sale/)

[RevolverRob]

Aimpoint's new CompM5b has a solution. Probably cheaper than two optics.


(https://soldiersystems.net/2020/01/20/aimpoint-releases-compm5b-for-worldwide-sale/)

You know...for an Aggie, you're all right. ;)

That's fucking AWESOME. I had already decided I was going to do a CompM5 on my Rattler...Doesn't look like these are shipping yet?

[Grey]

Yeah the 300 BO PDW trip was basically I need something very short that had terminal performance at a short distance, IE super niche.

I would never be running a 300 BO gun as a general purpose rifle/pistol. Just doesn't make sense, and the high quality, stop threats ammo is stupid expensive.

I think LittleLebowski is a fan for hunting?

[texasaggie2005]

You know...for an Aggie, you're all right. ;)

That's fucking AWESOME. I had already decided I was going to do a CompM5 on my Rattler...Doesn't look like these are shipping yet?

Oh shit, are you a tsip? :cool:

No clue about the shipping part, maybe Wayne Dobbs could chime in? This might be one of those mil/gov only items.

[RevolverRob]

Oh shit, are you a tsip? :cool:

No clue about the shipping part, maybe Wayne Dobbs could chime in? This might be one of those mil/gov only items.

Hook 'em.

(BA and MS from UT Austin).

[flyrodr]

C'mon folks,

I was at the range a couple of hours ago, and, as I was about to leave, saw and salivated over the .300BLK Rattler on display. (Un?) Fortunately, the Covid-19 distancing rules resulted in a rather long line of customers waiting to get into the retail part of the store, and I had to get home.

But I could be convinced. Or dissuaded. My APC9 certainly has me liking the platform, and I can see the benefits of the .300 round compared to 9mm. But I can also see the $/rd difference and availability, not the mention the $2K+ initial investment.

Wait . . . why am I trying to apply logic to buying a gun???

[RevolverRob]

C'mon folks,

I was at the range a couple of hours ago, and, as I was about to leave, saw and salivated over the .300BLK Rattler on display. (Un?) Fortunately, the Covid-19 distancing rules resulted in a rather long line of customers waiting to get into the retail part of the store, and I had to get home.

But I could be convinced. Or dissuaded. My APC9 certainly has me liking the platform, and I can see the benefits of the .300 round compared to 9mm. But I can also see the $/rd difference and availability, not the mention the $2K+ initial investment.

Wait . . . why am I trying to apply logic to buying a gun???

Do it.

Join the Rattler club. All the cool kids are in it.

[Grey]

Do it.

Join the Rattler club. All the cool kids are in it.

Rob is not really in the club, he's just panting at the door and scratching trying to be let in...

[flyrodr]

Do it.

Join the Rattler club. All the cool kids are in it.

What with you, GJM and SouthNarc all "against" me, I'm pretty sure I don't stand a chance of resisting.

:rolleyes:

[LittleLebowski]

Yeah the 300 BO PDW trip was basically I need something very short that had terminal performance at a short distance, IE super niche.

I would never be running a 300 BO gun as a general purpose rifle/pistol. Just doesn't make sense, and the high quality, stop threats ammo is stupid expensive.

I think LittleLebowski is a fan for hunting?

One shot, one kill on a respectable whitetail buck with a store bought 150gr super. The same rifle brings a smile to my face with subs. I don’t understand the .300BO hate, but it’s not my problem. Easier than 5.56 to reload for, waaaaaaaay less blast than 5.56, quiet, fun to shoot, uses existing components.

#GunWorkGunGood

[wilco423]

Aimpoint's new CompM5b has a solution. Probably cheaper than two optics.


(https://soldiersystems.net/2020/01/20/aimpoint-releases-compm5b-for-worldwide-sale/)

There’s also these Micro turrets from FCD. Need a small screwdriver, but easier than the standard set up.

https://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/ATA-Adjustable-Turret-cap-Aimpoint-Micro_p_143.html

[MolonLabe416]

I don’t run subs in mine. If I had a need for subs, I’d get a second upper and scope dedicated to that use. Simple.

[RevolverRob]

Rob is not really in the club, he's just panting at the door and scratching trying to be let in...

You're mad jealous of all my .300BO brass and bullets tho. ;)

[Duces Tecum]

Several people upthread have referred to the .300 BLK as a niche tool, but I don't know if that is always a bad thing. One doesn't play competitive golf with only irons, yet irons are required to successfully compete. Every club in the bag has evolved over time for a specific (niche) purpose. Together they constitute a general-purpose tool set. To be short the appropriate golf club, and the skill to use it, is to be disadvantaged. Same-same with guns, I think.

As a simple example, an entry level armory might consist of a service pistol, a shotty, and a battle rifle. Each of those are niche (ie, best at specific duties), but when considered as a whole, cover most of the field. There remain, however, gaps that might prove disadvantageous. There's not much an M-14 guy can do about a skilled man with a precision rifle shooting at him from 1,200 yards away.

Regarding the .300 BLK, if one has a perceived need (a) to defend against feral urbanites beyond normal pistol range to say, a city block away, (b) and recognizes the advantages of carrying a Large Pistol with enough BB's for comfort in an (c) easily portable backpack or slightly oversize briefcase, (d) on a civilian pistol permit (e) where a full rifle might generate unwanted notice, then something like a .300 BLK might be a very appropriate choice. It is a general purpose tool for that specific use. It's time has come. Niche perhaps, but not necessarily a bad thing.

[Wayne Dobbs]

You know...for an Aggie, you're all right. ;)

That's fucking AWESOME. I had already decided I was going to do a CompM5 on my Rattler...Doesn't look like these are shipping yet?

PM out to you Revolver Rob.

[Borderland]

deleted........

[Borderland]

One shot, one kill on a respectable whitetail buck with a store bought 150gr super. The same rifle brings a smile to my face with subs. I don’t understand the .300BO hate, but it’s not my problem. Easier than 5.56 to reload for, waaaaaaaay less blast than 5.56, quiet, fun to shoot, uses existing components.

#GunWorkGunGood


Easier to reload how? Never reloaded it so just curious.

[OlongJohnson]

Didn't we have this conversation in the PDW thread?

In the past, I never took 300BLK seriously because it just seemed like weak sauce compared to a 6.8. And it still is.

Compare it to a pistol round, with the things pistol rounds are really good at as your metrics, and it loses bad.

Compare it to a rifle round, with the things rifle rounds are really good at as your metrics, and it loses bad.

But for a pistol round, it's really good at rifley things. And for a rifle round, it's really good at pistoly things. If you have a mission that drives a gear train like that, it's kinda nice to have a solution. There really isn't one better.

And I have 1500 Speer TNTs that cost me <$0.14/bullet, so with the Dillon cranking, cost per round will be in the same ballpark as 5.56.

[GJM]

If you aren’t satisfied by a .30 caliber, 110 grain Barnes bullet, at about 2,000 fps out of an eight inch or shorter barrel, that is similar in noise or quieter than a sixteen inch 5.56, that uses regular AR magazines, you probably have no business with a .300 BLK AR pistol.

[Corse]

If you aren’t satisfied by a .30 caliber, 110 grain Barnes bullet, at about 2,000 fps out of an eight inch or shorter barrel, that is similar in noise or quieter than a sixteen inch 5.56, that uses regular AR magazines, you probably have no business with a .300 BLK AR pistol.

I got those 110s clocking at ~2300 from a 9”.

If you can work with the limitations of a 50 yrd sub zero, it works out to a ~25/200+ super zero with 125gr I think.

[LittleLebowski]

Easier to reload how? Never reloaded it so just curious.

I never trim, never have to. It’s nearly a straight wall case.

[GJM]

I got those 110s clocking at ~2300 from a 9”.

If you can work with the limitations of a 50 yrd sub zero, it works out to a ~25/200+ super zero with 125gr I think.

I was being conservative! :)

My rule of thumb for a .300 with supers, is add 100 yards to your 5.56 trajectory. So drop at 200 with the .300 is like a 5.56 at 300 yards. 400 yards is outside my interest with the .300.

[breakingtime91]

how do 7 inch 300 blk barrels do?

[GJM]

how do 7 inch 300 blk barrels do?

Can you elaborate on your question?

[flyrodr]

If you aren’t satisfied by a .30 caliber, 110 grain Barnes bullet, at about 2,000 fps out of an eight inch or shorter barrel, that is similar in noise or quieter than a sixteen inch 5.56, that uses regular AR magazines, you probably have no business with a .300 BLK AR pistol.

I think that part of my quandary is whether I am looking for a more-potent-than-9mm PDW that can be run subsonic, or more of a supersonic "blaster". Or both . . .

But for sure, I won't be hauling around (in car or otherwise) a standard 16-in (or shorter) 5.56 AR. I see the occasional shorty 5.56 AR at the range. They keep a fire extinguisher handy, in case the fireball sets the target on fire. Kidding . . . I hope.

George, can't recall from other PDW thread, are you running irons on your Rattler, or just the red dot? If irons, the same Troys as on the APC9 Pro? Thanks!

[breakingtime91]

Can you elaborate on your question?

do 7 inch barrels shoot well enough (velocity) to be an effective option for 300 blk?

[ranger]

I am traveling visiting son, DIL, and Granddaughter right now. Carried new 300 BO AR pistol in small case with multiple 20 round mags. 7.5 barrel and LAW folder. It is perfect in that PDW role. Got plenty of other ARs in 5.56, 6.5G, 6.8 that have “better” capabilities but they do not fit in a tiny case. It is a great niche tool for my purposes. Had a training session with wife last a Sunday and she had no issues employing 300 BO pistol. Do not think she would be happy with short barreled 5.56 muzzle blast. In my case I could have brought SIG MPX SBR but the 300 BO was fine.

[ASH556]

Eh...PDW:
55762

[Borderland]

I never trim, never have to. It’s nearly a straight wall case.

Well, that is a problem with 5.56. I hate it. So just a question about brass spec. Do you run the brass thru a case gauge to check or do you just assume it's OK like straight wall?

There isn't much of shoulder on 300 BLK.

[MickAK]

1. Short barrel
2. Quiet
3. Compact
4. You get a free .30-30 with the above?

I guess in a GtG package the use would really be quiet offense. Your zero isn't going be as exact as you like to have it if you throw a mag of supers in without some of the optics mentioned ITT, but you can get pretty close as has been mentioned as well. I don't know if being dead nuts at 400 yds is really in .300 BO's wheelhouse. It can be done but that isn't what it's for.

So I guess it comes down to do you want that capability with the bonus of having a heavier round for hunting.

[GJM]

how do 7 inch 300 blk barrels do?

I understand 110 Barnes are 1,900 FPS at the muzzle of the Rattler, and the Barnes is designed to expand down to 1,700 FPS. Since the Rattler is just a 5.5 barrel, a 7 inch barrel will give expansion out further.

[RevolverRob]

Well, that is a problem with 5.56. I hate it. So just a question about brass spec. Do you run the brass thru a case gauge to check or do you just assume it's OK like straight wall?

There isn't much of shoulder on 300 BLK.

Not LL - but I’ve been making 300BO brass from 5.56 for like five days straight now. I’m cutting my brass to 1.358” (median trim length) when I run them through a full length sizing die they aren’t even growing .01” usually less than .005”. They might stretch a bit more when firing but if you did an initial trim on the shorter side (1.348”) - you could probably get half a dozen loadings out of the same cases without trimming.

Because the shoulder is so minor in 300BLK it strikes me as a case that’s best suited for full length sizing over neck sizing. The neck is pretty short and the shoulder transition is so lightly tapered that unformed cases with even small amounts of lube are forming nice and easy.

[SouthNarc]

Sounds like your mind is made up so I don't understand why you want someone to convince you otherwise.

[Rex G]

Eh...PDW:
55762

Valid choice, as any pistol enhanced with an optic, and perhaps a compensator, has potential for longer-range engagement, but even an RMR takes a Glock out of the truly-concealable class of handgun, unless I am willing to wear an over-sized or extra-full-cut cover garment, so, for me, starts entering the “bag gun” class. That is one reason I only briefly tried an tritium-powered, battery-less RMR, which I borrowed from a long gun, on a G19 MOS. It is all I can do to barely hide a blocky Glock slide, in summer clothing, as it is, so, an RMR makes it a “bag gun,” for me. (A Glock slide carries all of its bulkiness and blockiness all the way to the rear of the slide, and the need to enclose the striker mechanism makes all such pistols have slides that protrude relatively farther to the rear, than most hammer-fired guns.) In SE Texas, “summer clothing” is applicable, much of the year.

If what I am carrying is already into the “bag gun” class, I might as well go for something that has a brace, for more stability, and a longer barrel, for more velocity, plus, a not-so-compact optic, for better sighting capability, so that the package allows me to engage at longer distance. From this point, is it such a leap, to carry a large-enough bag, to accommodate a compact AR, firing 300 AAC/BLK? 300 BLK is going to “do more work,” at longer range, than anything fired from a Glock.

I have, already, conceded that I am not certain that an AR-based braced weapon, in a bag, is something that will fit my lifestyle. I can only sling, so much weight, in a bag, for so long, as I was blessed with some bonus curves, in my spine. So, ergonomically, a lumbar pack, or a backpack with a truly ergonomic hip belt, become necessary. Such things are less fashionable than SouthNarc’s cool Filson bag.

On the other hand, shooting big-bore N-Frame Magnum revolvers, too much, in the Eighties, with my K/L-Frame-sized hands, has caused some chickens to come home to roost in my hands, so, pistols with braces are making sense, in late middle age, even if I do not plan to “shoulder” them. So, again, if I am going to be toting a braced pistol, perhaps an AR-based weapon makes sense, and, that keeps 300 AAC/BLK a consideration.

[OlongJohnson]

So, ergonomically, a lumbar pack, or a backpack with a truly ergonomic hip belt, become necessary. Such things are less fashionable than SouthNarc’s cool Filson bag.

Not to mention, it's widely assumed that a middle aged man wearing a "lumbar pack" in a free state is carrying. It's pretty darn close to the same thing as shrink-wrapping a rash guard over the gun.

[Robinson]

My one remaining rifle is a 300BLK 16" bolt gun with a LPV optic mounted. With my hearing damage I do all of my rifle shooting suppressed, and supersonic 300BLK suppresses nicer than 223/5.56. I've never used subsonic rounds and didn't buy the rifle for that purpose anyway.

[Rex G]

Not to mention, it's widely assumed that a middle aged man wearing a "lumbar pack" in a free state is carrying. It's pretty darn close to the same thing as shrink-wrapping a rash guard over the gun.

Ah, we are envisioning different products. I am meaning a compact pack worn on something like a Hill People Gear Prairie Belt, or a Kifaru Duplex belt. The pack/pouch is, literally, worn over one’s lumbar region. Shoulder straps would be optional, as the load is borne on the hips. The pack/pouch can be detached, and carried on a strap, but I would rather my hips and legs bear the weight.

https://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Products/CategoryID/3/ProductID/11

https://store.kifaru.net/kifaru-pack-belts-p71.aspx

Mine is the HPG Prairie Belt. Like I indicated, earlier, not exactly urban-professional.

There have, in the past, been decent purpose-built lumbar packs, with Kifaru and Mountainsmith coming to mind, from the outdoorsy world, and the Think Tank Speed Racer, from the photo gear world, but these days, one may have to buy the proper lumbar belt, and attach suitable packs and pouches, to them. (The Speed Racer was marketed as a shoulder bag, but its substantial waist belt was the FAR better way to use it for weight-bearing purposes.)

[Grey]

Sounds like your mind is made up so I don't understand why you want someone to convince you otherwise.

He's bored and wants to start shit with the cool kids? :cool::cool:

[LittleLebowski]

Yesterday I listened to the Colion Noir + Kevin Brittingham podcast they recorded together last month. Of course there was a lot of 300 Blackout talk and comparing it to .223/5.56. Kevin told again what I've heard him say for years: It was developed as a replacement for the MP5-SD, subsonic, etc. Cool, whatever, got it. Then he jumps into the "and switch to supers and now you're effective to 400yds" and that's the part where I feel like everyone jumps the shark.

In my experience actually shooting guns, having your sighting system zeroed to the load you're shooting and then knowing where to hold to account for distance, or even to account for a different load is CRITICAL to successful hits. Every time I've tried to go down the 300 Blackout rabbit hole, the zero thing is always the sticking point. As far as I can tell from looking at ballistic charts and reading others' experience, there's not a good zero that works for subs and supers.

For instance, if there was something like, 25yd Subsonic zero = 100yd Supersonic zero, and then holds that were something like 50yd sub/200yd super, 75yd sub/300yd super, 100yd sub/400yd super...that would make sense and be manageable. But everything I've seen says you have to pick either subs or supers and then zero for that load because they're not close enough. Well, that just kills the whole "oh yeah, just toss in a mag of supers and suddenly you're good to 400yds."

If I'm wrong, tell me and I'll try to understand.

For me, this whole argument revolves around MPB or max point blank (https://www.hunter-ed.com/muzzleloader/studyGuide/Understanding-Maximum-Point-Blank-Range/222099_88863/).

Why not just know your holdovers for a certain MPB for both loads? I mean, we are not sniping bad guys through their scope at hundreds of yards with these carbines; center mass is good enough for me. We do have the former chief of CQB training for NSW (Naval Special Warfare) East Coast on this forum, and he's the one that got me on the .300BO bandwagon. There were other factors; like easier to reload, the ability to load subs period, not to mention how cheap the sub ammo is for reloading, less blast, way more effective in short barreled AR pistols and the like.

People like 5.56 because it's been around forever and in my opinion, because of that high velocity light bullet, you have a very forgiving MPB, it's not hard at all to make hits 0-300 with a 5.56 gun and not know dick about the ballistics and flight path of your projectile. In Pat Rogers's very last class (love ya and miss ya, Pat) I watched decent AR shooters fall apart on AKs because they were used to red dots (not iron sights) and because they were used to the flatter shooting 5.56 as opposed to the arc of the 7.62x39mm.

[Rex G]

Let's keep in mind that some of us have targets on our backs.

There are websites that help people remember old grudges, providing them with names of people involved in incidents. Long before there was Auntie FA, was just plain vanilla anti-police, with dot coms.

It has never been easier to find people, thanks to .gov sites that freely provide information, that used to be confidential. (Keeping everything in my wife's name, without my surname attached, used to be enough. Not anymore!)

A tripod bag, or lacrosse racket bag, or a snowshoe bag, has been a way to tote serious ballistic capability, relatively discreetly. Actually, a black tripod bag WILL raise eyebrows, unless one is visibly toting other photo gear. (My wife and I, both have serious cameras; actually, she was the serious photographer, long before me, who lured me into yet another expensive hobby.)

A LAW folder helps get an AR-based weapon into a bag/pouch/container that is smaller, but the shooting capability is limited to one shot, until unfolded.

An AR-based pistol helps one get that weapon into an even smaller bag/case/container.

An AR-ish pistol, with no physical need for a buffer tube, allows a folding stock to be used, such as the Rattler, gets this weapon into a quite compact case, bag, etc.

Again, I am not certain that I will be toting a 300 AAC/BLK AR pistol, while out and about, on a daily basis. i do know that it takes some level of dedication to carry my DDM4 V7P. I am probably too feeble to effectively wield a multi-pound breaching hammer. I do, however, like bag guns, and I do have a day-pack, in a non-black, non-.mil color, which has a sleeve purpose-made to hold a SAPI- plate and/or similar-sized piece of Kevlar. I have an RMJ Tactical Little Bird Crash Axe, and a Gransfors Bruks Wildlife Hatchet. I'd rather not be specific about what I tote, but, well, portable toys are fun.

I just took delivery of a new-old-stock Weaver scope/optic mount, for my 6" Ruger Security Six, which has been in need of a sight refresh. (The previous owner mistreated it.) This will be fun. I do love me some long-barreled .357 sixgun. :)

[Borderland]

For me, this whole argument revolves around MPB or max point blank (https://www.hunter-ed.com/muzzleloader/studyGuide/Understanding-Maximum-Point-Blank-Range/222099_88863/).

Why not just know your holdovers for a certain MPB for both loads? I mean, we are not sniping bad guys through their scope at hundreds of yards with these carbines; center mass is good enough for me. We do have the former chief of CQB training for NSW (Naval Special Warfare) East Coast on this forum, and he's the one that got me on the .300BO bandwagon. There were other factors; like easier to reload, the ability to load subs period, not to mention how cheap the sub ammo is for reloading, less blast, way more effective in short barreled AR pistols and the like.

People like 5.56 because it's been around forever and in my opinion, because of that high velocity light bullet, you have a very forgiving MPB, it's not hard at all to make hits 0-300 with a 5.56 gun and not know dick about the ballistics and flight path of your projectile. In Pat Rogers's very last class (love ya and miss ya, Pat) I watched decent AR shooters fall apart on AKs because they were used to red dots (not iron sights) and because they were used to the flatter shooting 5.56 as opposed to the arc of the 7.62x39mm.

Mil Dot scope should work just fine for sonic to sub sonic. I don't have a Mil Dot on my CZ 455 (22LR) but I can hit a plate at 200 yds using a reference hash below the crosshair. I don't think I can do it with irons because my eyes are old.

That's like some kind of magic for some people.

300 BLK is probably the new 30 carbine, just better.

[LittleLebowski]

As of yesterday, I'm on board with the LAW folder/.300BO pistol. Getting the ARIC next week :cool:

55792

[Wondering Beard]

300 BLK is probably the new 30 carbine, just better.

This sort of leads to something I've been wondering about.

The supersonic 300 BLK loads work somewhere between the 30 Carbine and the 7.62x39 (the longer the barrel, the more like the AK round, the shorter, the more like the carbine round). There's a lot that can be done with those ballistics.

The subsonic loads, however, confuse me. What does a + or - 200gr subsonic .30 caliber round actually do well that isn't covered by some other caliber (or supersonics), aside from being good at working with suppressors?

[DamonL]

As of yesterday, I'm on board with the LAW folder/.300BO pistol. Getting the ARIC next week :cool:

55792

See if you can get an ARIC or two for me please. Thank you. 😀

[Rex G]

The subsonic loads, however, confuse me. What does a + or - 200gr subsonic .30 caliber round actually do well that isn't covered by some other caliber (or supersonics), aside from being good at working with suppressors?

Well, there are places where it is legal and/or socially acceptable to shoot, but where it is bad manners to thunder-strike the local populace with supersonic rifle or Magnum handgun fire, whether training, or shooting small-sized game or pest animals.

Edited to add: One can, of course, use a .22 LR conversion unit, to achieve a lower noise level, but if I encounter a trespasser/poacher, or other threat, it is easier to switch a mag, to serious defensive ammo, than strip the weapon to re-install the serious hardware.

This is not hypothetical, for my use cases.

[Wondering Beard]

Well, there are places where it is legal and/or socially acceptable to shoot, but where it is bad manners to thunder-strike the local populace with supersonic rifle or Magnum handgun fire, whether training, or shooting small-sized game or pest animals.

So, that's about being suppressor friendly isn't it?

In terms of terminal ballistics, with or without a suppressor, what do the subsonic rounds do well?

[Rex G]

So, that's about being suppressor friendly isn't it?

In terms of terminal ballistics, with or without a suppressor, what do the subsonic rounds do well?

“Suppressor-friendly” is only relevant if one owns a suppressor. A similar example may be having both .38 Special, and full-pressure .357 Magnum ammo, for one’s .357 Magnum revolvers.

[RevolverRob]

So, that's about being suppressor friendly isn't it?

In terms of terminal ballistics, with or without a suppressor, what do the subsonic rounds do well?

Be heavy and sub-sonic.

My understanding is, the 190-220 grain sub-sonic rounds offer slightly better than .45 ACP terminal ballistics - in a package that is more rifle-like, with better accuracy and flatter trajectory at longer ranges due to higher BC from the bullets. You can run sub-sonics with acceptable pistol-like terminal effect out to ~100y without an issue.

You're right to wonder how effective the rounds are, a lot of the commonly loaded sub-sonic rounds don't seem to offer great terminal performance, especially from shorter barrels. The new'ish Hornady 190-grain Sub-X rounds are the first to meet FBI testing standards for sub-sonics in .300BLK from short barrels. Sig also has a monolithic sub-sonic that is supposed to work well from shorter barrels, but they recommend at least a 7" barrel for efficacy.

Anything you might hunt with a .45ACP could be shot with a sub-sonic .300BLK. You're not going to reliably get better terminal effect than a .45 ACP from .300BLK sub-sonic (excepting perhaps the Sub-X mentioned above) - but in many cases, because the bullets are quite long and fairly slow, you're probably running on the edge of them being properly stabilized. It seems, from looking at gel blocks and hogs shot (at least pictures and vids online) that .300 subs do have a tendency to yaw and tumble, like we expect from understabilized heavy bullets in pistols. But with the added advantage of resisting becoming destabilized during flight at longer distances, because of better bullet BC.

Add in that they are quiet, even unsuppressed and stupid quiet when suppressed - you get the noise benefit. As far as I can tell (which is very little), the use of the MP5SD and now .300BLK sub-sonic suppressed is primarily for close range (<50y) work, when employed by those folks who are hunting people. I basically apply the same standard to thinking about what to use subsonics for.

[Wondering Beard]

My understanding is, the 190-220 grain sub-sonic rounds offer slightly better than .45 ACP terminal ballistics - in a package that is more rifle-like, with better accuracy and flatter trajectory at longer ranges due to higher BC from the bullets. You can run sub-sonics with acceptable pistol-like terminal effect out to ~100y without an issue.

And


As far as I can tell (which is very little), the use of the MP5SD and now .300BLK sub-sonic suppressed is primarily for close range (<50y) work, when employed by those folks who are hunting people. I basically apply the same standard to thinking about what to use subsonics for.

Would it be fair to say that the heavy subs are better than 45ACP at getting through stuff, like cars, but otherwise one gets a short rifle package to launch 45ACP ballistics-like rounds?

[OlongJohnson]

Would it be fair to say that the heavy subs are better than 45ACP at getting through stuff, like cars, but otherwise one gets a short rifle package to launch 45ACP ballistics-like rounds?

Yes. Rob pretty much covered it. The Hornady 190gr is basically equivalent to a .45 Auto, but with a better BC, so it will drop a little less at ranges where drop becomes relevant. I don't know that it's "better." He mentioned it's the first one to actually meet standards in test protocols. I reckon it's probably fairly similar to a 230gr +P HST or Gold Dot once it gets where it's going.

The typical .30 caliber match or other bullets that are loaded for sub use depend on yawing after impact to do anything other than pencil through.

And yes, you get a rifle-ish package that can instantly switch to shooting the equivalent of quite a bit hotter than .357 Magnum through a long gun in a short barrel with neutered, standard or high-cap mags, with much better BCs just by changing ammo.

[overton]

Bought a Holosun with the ACSS reticle. Now trying to find a Super/Subs zero like on this variant.

https://primaryarmsoptics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/RAPTOR-300BLK-BDC-1.jpg

[echo5charlie]

And



Would it be fair to say that the heavy subs are better than 45ACP at getting through stuff, like cars, but otherwise one gets a short rifle package to launch 45ACP ballistics-like rounds?

Kinda. Back in 2012 when I jumped on the .300 BLK bandwagon I found out real quick that a subsonic .300 will go through trees (approx 16" diameter) at 20 yards with ease AND with enough juice on the other side to chip rock with vigor. Those same subs zipped right through NIJ IIA Lexgard glazing and rang steel behind it.

So, yes, the external ballistics are very .45 Auto-like, the terminal ballistics are not*.

If price/availability were equal to 5.56, I would probably only shoot .300 BLK.

*-there is obvious exception here when using specialty bullets

[El Cid]

Don’t use subs at all.

Problem solved.

While I agree for serious social use, I’ve found a benefit to subs. Steel matches. I can train with my 300BLK at a steel match where I’d normally only be able to use a PCC.

I do have a buddy who hunts with subs and is very successful. I don’t hunt so I can’t comment on effectiveness of subs or supers.

[rob_s]

I was glad to come to my senses during the early days of the big PDW thread. I'm glad the barrel I ordered was back ordered because it gave me time to think it through and realize that 300 BLK doesn't make a lot of sense for me.

Similar here.

Doesn’t mean I won’t wind up with a Rattler for no good reason.

I’ll keep it in my Raptor.

[LittleLebowski]

Kinda. Back in 2012 when I jumped on the .300 BLK bandwagon I found out real quick that a subsonic .300 will go through trees (approx 16" diameter) at 20 yards with ease AND with enough juice on the other side to chip rock with vigor. Those same subs zipped right through NIJ IIA Lexgard glazing and rang steel behind it.

So, yes, the external ballistics are very .45 Auto-like, the terminal ballistics are not*.

If price/availability were equal to 5.56, I would probably only shoot .300 BLK.

*-there is obvious exception here when using specialty bullets

Yup, such is my experience. All subsonic bullets are not created equal.

[LittleLebowski]

Similar here.

Doesn’t mean I won’t wind up with a Rattler for no good reason.

I’ll keep it on my Raptor.

I hate being poor :(

[Borderland]

Kinda. Back in 2012 when I jumped on the .300 BLK bandwagon I found out real quick that a subsonic .300 will go through trees (approx 16" diameter) at 20 yards with ease AND with enough juice on the other side to chip rock with vigor. Those same subs zipped right through NIJ IIA Lexgard glazing and rang steel behind it.

So, yes, the external ballistics are very .45 Auto-like, the terminal ballistics are not*.

If price/availability were equal to 5.56, I would probably only shoot .300 BLK.

*-there is obvious exception here when using specialty bullets

And if I were buying another carbine it would be 300 BLK. I would just reload for it to save money. It can use the same powder as my M1 carbine (2400), the same primers, the same 110 gr bullets and the same brass as my .223 if I cut, reform and trim. But I already have 2 carbines and no more room in the safe. I'm not selling anything now that we're having so much social unrest. How's that for PC?

[RevolverRob]

And if I were buying another carbine it would be 300 BLK. I would just reload for it to save money. It can use the same powder as my M1 carbine (2400), the same primers, the same 110 gr bullets and the same brass as my .223 if I cut, reform and trim. But I already have 2 carbines and no more room in the safe. I'm not selling anything now that we're having so much social unrest. How's that for PC.

Well, maybe the same bullets. Seems to be fairly weapon specific whether the 110 RNs for .30 Carbine work. I’d operate under the assumption that you may have to opt for more expensive .308 bullets. But the Speer TNTs are 0.16/each when in stock. Which makes them almost as cheap as .30 Carbine FMJs. Not quite as cheap as hard cast plain lead.

That said, you can always experiment and see if they work and if not the Speer TNTs would be good to go.

And you don’t need a whole carbine...just an AR Pistol - https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-10-5-carbine-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-12-slant-m-lok-moe-ept-sba3-pistol-5165448816.html

Come on man, you’ve got room for one or two or twelve more. Get some rifle rods - https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Storage-Solutions-RR10SK-Starter/dp/B06XKF7WR6/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3NOW5AGWIKHNF&dchild=1&keywords=rifle+rods+gun+storage+solutions&qid=1592180929&sprefix=Rifle+rods%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-2 -

[SecondsCount]

300 BLK is a one trick pony. I don't need anything that does that trick so I don't own one.

[Norville]

300 BLK is a one trick pony. I don't need anything that does that trick so I don't own one.

And what would that one trick be?

[Borderland]

Well, maybe the same bullets. Seems to be fairly weapon specific whether the 110 RNs for .30 Carbine work. I’d operate under the assumption that you may have to opt for more expensive .308 bullets. But the Speer TNTs are 0.16/each when in stock. Which makes them almost as cheap as .30 Carbine FMJs. Not quite as cheap as hard cast plain lead.

That said, you can always experiment and see if they work and if not the Speer TNTs would be good to go.

And you don’t need a whole carbine...just an AR Pistol - https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-10-5-carbine-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-12-slant-m-lok-moe-ept-sba3-pistol-5165448816.html

Come on man, you’ve got room for one or two or twelve more. Get some rifle rods - https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Storage-Solutions-RR10SK-Starter/dp/B06XKF7WR6/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3NOW5AGWIKHNF&dchild=1&keywords=rifle+rods+gun+storage+solutions&qid=1592180929&sprefix=Rifle+rods%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-2 -

I'm on a fixed income until I die. I like real pistols better anyway. Carbines are for Taliban and roving Chazians. Nothing but grief here. Sez so on the sign in the driveway.

[SecondsCount]

And what would that one trick be?

Lots of energy from a slow moving bullet that will fit in the AR envelope.

[ASH556]

Sounds like your mind is made up so I don't understand why you want someone to convince you otherwise.

I mean this with all respect. Tone isn't conveyed well in text so if anything comes across sarcastic or disrespectful, rest assured it was not intended to be.

In the shooting world, especially with respect to gear and also with respect to techniques, there's usually a large degree of truth to "everyone is doing it this way, that's called a clue." At the same time there's also the, "mission drives the gear train" and "works for me."

I see a lot of people still talking about and using the Blackout. I've evaluated it for my needs several times since it was first released and keep coming up short. Not wanting to miss the boat, though, I started this thread by sharing my perspective but also stating that I was open to see what I was missing.

From the responses here it seems most universally agree that the subsonic thing is a bad idea outside of a party trick, and that the real appeal comes from the ability to get superior ballistics from a shorter barrel (7-8"). In other words, a "backpack" gun. Ok cool, I can see that. I don't personally have a need for that, but it doesn't mean that need doesn't exist for others. The reloading argument I could give or take. I don't reload and probably never will. It's like tying flies...I'd rather be fishing.

[ASH556]

Valid choice, as any pistol enhanced with an optic, and perhaps a compensator, has potential for longer-range engagement, but even an RMR takes a Glock out of the truly-concealable class of handgun, unless I am willing to wear an over-sized or extra-full-cut cover garment, so, for me, starts entering the “bag gun” class. That is one reason I only briefly tried an tritium-powered, battery-less RMR, which I borrowed from a long gun, on a G19 MOS. It is all I can do to barely hide a blocky Glock slide, in summer clothing, as it is, so, an RMR makes it a “bag gun,” for me. (A Glock slide carries all of its bulkiness and blockiness all the way to the rear of the slide, and the need to enclose the striker mechanism makes all such pistols have slides that protrude relatively farther to the rear, than most hammer-fired guns.) In SE Texas, “summer clothing” is applicable, much of the year.

If what I am carrying is already into the “bag gun” class, I might as well go for something that has a brace, for more stability, and a longer barrel, for more velocity, plus, a not-so-compact optic, for better sighting capability, so that the package allows me to engage at longer distance. From this point, is it such a leap, to carry a large-enough bag, to accommodate a compact AR, firing 300 AAC/BLK? 300 BLK is going to “do more work,” at longer range, than anything fired from a Glock.

I have, already, conceded that I am not certain that an AR-based braced weapon, in a bag, is something that will fit my lifestyle. I can only sling, so much weight, in a bag, for so long, as I was blessed with some bonus curves, in my spine. So, ergonomically, a lumbar pack, or a backpack with a truly ergonomic hip belt, become necessary. Such things are less fashionable than SouthNarc’s cool Filson bag.

On the other hand, shooting big-bore N-Frame Magnum revolvers, too much, in the Eighties, with my K/L-Frame-sized hands, has caused some chickens to come home to roost in my hands, so, pistols with braces are making sense, in late middle age, even if I do not plan to “shoulder” them. So, again, if I am going to be toting a braced pistol, perhaps an AR-based weapon makes sense, and, that keeps 300 AAC/BLK a consideration.

I can't say what does or does not work for you. I can say that for me the RMR on the G19 affects its concelability zero. The "screen" of the RMR sits right on my belt line and isn't any wider than the pistol slide, so no additional printing. It's not Texas (expecially Houston...gawd) but GA summer heat and humidity is not insignificant and I've carried an G19 in those conditions for 16 years now, always SS IWB. So, by simply bolting the RMR to my gun combined with 6 years of serious discipline devoted to trigger control and "longer range" (defined as 25yds +) work with a 9mm Glock, I have what I consider to be a PDW concealed on my person pretty much all the time. I don't know what the terminal ballistics for 124 +P GDHP are because it seems most (not P-F members) only consider pistols to be useful at 7yds, but as far as ability to "hit", 100yds is very doable.

[OlongJohnson]

Maybe a better thread title would have been, "I don't have a use for 300 Blackout...convince me I'm wrong."

[ASH556]

Maybe a better thread title would have been, "I don't have a use for 300 Blackout...convince me I'm wrong."

Probably so.

[SouthNarc]

I mean this with all respect. Tone isn't conveyed well in text so if anything comes across sarcastic or disrespectful, rest assured it was not intended to be.

In the shooting world, especially with respect to gear and also with respect to techniques, there's usually a large degree of truth to "everyone is doing it this way, that's called a clue." At the same time there's also the, "mission drives the gear train" and "works for me."

I see a lot of people still talking about and using the Blackout. I've evaluated it for my needs several times since it was first released and keep coming up short. Not wanting to miss the boat, though, I started this thread by sharing my perspective but also stating that I was open to see what I was missing.

From the responses here it seems most universally agree that the subsonic thing is a bad idea outside of a party trick, and that the real appeal comes from the ability to get superior ballistics from a shorter barrel (7-8"). In other words, a "backpack" gun. Ok cool, I can see that. I don't personally have a need for that, but it doesn't mean that need doesn't exist for others. The reloading argument I could give or take. I don't reload and probably never will. It's like tying flies...I'd rather be fishing.

No sarcasm or disrespect inferred and none certainly meant. Looking at what I wrote, I probably could have done better than that. What I meant to convey was "Hey man you already know it's not working for you, so don't try and make it fit when it won't"

Here's where 300 BLK fits for me; In the Rattler, un-suppressed, in a bag. It's absolutely niche for me.

For what it's worth I know a guy personally who has shot someone OCONUS with a 300 BLK, Barnes TTSX 110 gr round. He was super happy with the performance. It's in a custom gun, for that group that there are no photos of on the internet and doesn't have an NSN because its a COTS item. I believe it's a 7.5" barrel those guys use. Sample of exactly ONE so your mileage may definitely vary.

[GyroF-16]

I'm on a fixed income until I die. I like real pistols better anyway. Carbines are for Taliban and roving Chazians. Nothing but grief here. Sez so on the sign in the driveway.

Kind of curious about that sign, now.

[GyroF-16]

Probably so.

Probably, but I took your meaning to be about the same, and I’ve appreciated the opportunity to sit quietly and observe the discussion and learn.
Since I have absolutely no attachment to 300 BLK, my capacity for butt-hurt was significantly smaller.

I, for one appreciate you starting the thread, and asking skeptical questions.

That said, when/if 300 BLK ammo becomes less absurdly expensive, I may keep my eye out for a nice short-barreled upper...

[flyrodr]

Maybe a better thread title would have been, "I don't have a use for 300 Blackout...convince me I'm wrong."

Yeah, I think that's me. But still . . .

So, as my granddaughter says "Please oh please . . ." convince me of a use/niche/fit/rationale/excuse.

Oh, and then, where is there any ammo for sale, especially that oft-mentioned Barnes TTSX 110 loading.

[OlongJohnson]

Yeah, I think that's me. But still . . .

So, as my granddaughter says "Please oh please . . ." convince me of a use/niche/fit/rationale/excuse.

Oh, and then, where is there any ammo for sale, especially that oft-mentioned Barnes TTSX 110 loading.

TAC-TX is the one specially engineered for .300 BLK. (https://www.barnesbullets.com/ammunition/300-blackout/) TTSX is the standard design that expands at higher velocities.

We have a whole enabling thread where people post ammo for sale. And you can lurk on the ammo search engines. Or set up "back in stock" alerts.

[Borderland]

Kind of curious about that sign, now.

I can't remember exactly what the signs say but something about video monitoring and another one about a dog. Most people don't pay any attention to it because they're invited or have business here. We don't get any salesmen or Jehovah's Witness folks.

[flyrodr]

TAC-TX is the one specially engineered for .300 BLK. (https://www.barnesbullets.com/ammunition/300-blackout/) TTSX is the standard design that expands at higher velocities.

We have a whole enabling thread where people post ammo for sale. And you can lurk on the ammo search engines. Or set up "back in stock" alerts.

Thanks. I haven't gotten to the point of buying the Rattler yet, but looking at options, including .300BLK ammo. Tried finding it on the Barnes site, and all that appears to be available is some Precision Match. SG Ammo has (or did, the other day) some odd loadings (Australian Outback 125gr Sierra Matchking, Remington UMC 200gr subsonic, etc.). Already on Sam's contact list. Nothing locally, although LEO supply house had plenty of Federal HST 147gr 9mm (non +P). Something like $34/50 rds, about $10/box more than a year or so ago. Didn't see anything on "Ammo Deals" thread, although I could have been searching incorrectly.

Just making me a bit concerned that scarcity of ammo could make the caliber a bit problematic at the moment. Contextually, though, one of the local shops was almost out of 9mm, and said distributor pipeline was virtually empty.

Still, can see .300BLK and Rattler in near future.

[OlongJohnson]

Work backward through this thread.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42065-300-AAC-Blackout-Enabling-Thread-(Mags-ammo-optics-barrels-etc-)

I believe that Barnes Precision Match loading is the same as the UMC/Rem 125 gr. that was at Academy for $16/box.

[Mike C]

I understand 110 Barnes are 1,900 FPS at the muzzle of the Rattler, and the Barnes is designed to expand down to 1,700 FPS. Since the Rattler is just a 5.5 barrel, a 7 inch barrel will give expansion out further.

I could be wrong but I believe the expansion threshold is actually 1300-1350. If that's the case you should see expansion to 270-280 yards.

ETA: FWIW I've been looking at it looks like there is info saying 1,700 but also 1,300 FPS. At one point I thought it was listed on Barnes' website but can no longer find it.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

The only thing I don't get about .300blk is when people buy 16" ARs in it, as one friend of mine did.

I was able to offer "well that's cool, if you spend enough time shooting her you'll certainly develop a good sense of how the round performs."

But in reality it's going to get 100 rounds a year at short range through paper and he will definitely learn nothing from it.

If I'd gotten around to it, I was going to do an 8" upper. But now it's a waiting game to see what the laws do.

[Wondering Beard]

The only thing I don't get about .300blk is when people buy 16" ARs in it, as one friend of mine did.

I don't know your friend so I can't tell what he wanted, but since a 300 blk out of a 16" barrel is basically a 7.62x39, I could see someone hunting with it where .223 is illegal and ... well some folks just want the cool new stuff. :-)

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Hmm... well, he won't do that but that did change my mind about the validity of the configuration.

[OlongJohnson]

I could be wrong but I believe the expansion threshold is actually 1300-1350. If that's the case you should see expansion to 270-280 yards.

ETA: FWIW I've been looking at it looks like there is info saying 1,700 but also 1,300 FPS. At one point I thought it was listed on Barnes' website but can no longer find it.

TAC-TX (black tip) is 1350.

TTSX (blue tip) and TSX (no tip) are around 1700-1800.

[RevolverRob]

I wouldn’t mind a 16” .300BLK - If I thought it was going to give me something a 10-12” gun wouldn’t (namely increased range). Because the case volume of .300BO is so limited - you can try as you might, but a 110-125 grain pill at 2400fps is kind of “it”. And you can get that in a 12” gun.

While some folks really seem to think .300BO is a 400y round, it is a ~300y max round in my eyes.

Outside of 0-300, I’m moving towards the 6.5G or we’ll see how the 6mm ARC shakes out.

[SecondsCount]

I wouldn’t mind a 16” .300BLK - If I thought it was going to give me something a 10-12” gun wouldn’t (namely increased range). Because the case volume of .300BO is so limited - you can try as you might, but a 110-125 grain pill at 2400fps is kind of “it”. And you can get that in a 12” gun.

While some folks really seem to think .300BO is a 400y round, it is a ~300y max round in my eyes.

Outside of 0-300, I’m moving towards the 6.5G or we’ll see how the 6mm ARC shakes out.

The 110 grain class of bullets at the low velocities that the 300BLK generates have the BC of a brick.

6.5G would be a much better choice out of an ultra short barrel, and 6ARC is showing promise in a 14.5.

[overton]

Ok, with my 7.5" SBR I am limited to a certain kind of ammo- Barnes 110gr. - but can't find anything in the 7" 5.56 world that
performs similar, as even softpoint 5.56 is too velocity dependent.

[RevolverRob]

The 110 grain class of bullets at the low velocities that the 300BLK generates have the BC of a brick.

Concur, which is why I view it as a close-range round. Someone pointed out above, I think Mike C, that max point blank range for expansion of a Barnes 110 out of a short barrel .300 is ~275 yards. Personally, were I using a .300 for hunting (or animals of 2 or 4 legged kind), I'd keep it well within 200y, to make sure I could both compensate for drop adequately and maintain effectiveness of the bullet.

When I was deer hunting as a boy, it was with a .30-30 lever gun, often with 150-grain reduced recoil loads (leaving a 20" barrel at ~2000fps). .300BO is basically a lighter weight, slightly better BC, version of that .30-30 in many instances. It killed a few deer with good shots and those soft point bullets expanded at ~125y, okay. I trust the Barnes bullet to be more effective and reliable.


6.5G would be a much better choice out of an ultra short barrel, and 6ARC is showing promise in a 14.5.

Of course, 6.5G would be better, it has considerably more powder behind the bullet and bullets with better BC. But if my understanding is correct about 6.5G, it doesn't work reliably with short gas systems. The advantage of the .300BO - now - is the Rattler. Which brings to the table a package that is tiny compared to even a <7.5" barrel AR pistol. .300BO rounds are more reliable in terms of terminal ballistics from these shorter guns than 5.56.

I think Craig described it sort of perfectly, the .300BO is a niche round for many, not a general purpose. Unless, all of your general purposes are within 200y (in my opinion). The .300BO can be stretched, theoretically to 400y, though ~300y is probably the realistic max. This makes it an ideal cartridge for an urban rifle, where engagements for the average person are <100y. Maybe the .300BO is a brick at this distances, it doesn't really matter much. (Brick is relative, with a 50y zero, 110-Barnes is ~.5" low at 100, with a 100y zero, no holder over is really needed until 150y, excluding the obvious hold over needs at <25y).

For an all around, completely general purpose, weapon - A 16" AR15 in 6.5G or perhaps 6G (aka 6mm ARC) would be a better choice. I exclude the 5.56, because we now have reliable, larger, calibers in AR15s that do not recoil significantly more, and are more effective at longer ranges, while still presenting acceptable terminal ballistics for most game animals (or perhaps enraged livestock) over the 5.56.

I'd almost flip the premise of this thread on its head, "5.56 is stupid...convince me that it is superior to .300BO, 6.5G, or 6mm ARC in anything but costs" :p

[OlongJohnson]

There are no solutions, only compromises. Everything that's had legs or will have legs in the market is because there's some spot on some Venn diagram where it has made a lot of sense for a significant number of people. Arguing that one is stupid and has no point or that one is better than all the rest for everything is stupid.

[flyrodr]

Arguing that one is stupid and has no point or that one is better than all the rest for everything is stupid.

Nonsense. When I moved up from a BB gun and got my first single-shot .22 and a box of shorts, I knew I was ready for anything up to and likely including a safari to Africa. And when I got my first box of Long Rifle high velocity . . . well, there was no doubt in my mind. Pretty sure I told everyone that too.

[Casual Friday]

I don't reload and probably never will. It's like tying flies...I'd rather be fishing.

Preach. For the reloaders that I know, it's a hobby all on it's own, and I don't need another hobby. Only one is a high volume shooter who reaps the cost savings benefit.


The only thing I don't get about .300blk is when people buy 16" ARs in it, as one friend of mine did.

I was able to offer "well that's cool, if you spend enough time shooting her you'll certainly develop a good sense of how the round performs."

But in reality it's going to get 100 rounds a year at short range through paper and he will definitely learn nothing from it.

If I'd gotten around to it, I was going to do an 8" upper. But now it's a waiting game to see what the laws do.

If you need a .24 or larger caliber to hunt with and barrel length minimum is 16", like here in WA, that's one reason, but I'd probably just hunt with my AK at that point.

[entropy]

I’ve found the .300 not to be a particularly accurate round. I’ve loaded various 110gr-130gr, the 150-165s and also some heavies (208AMAX that I use in 300WM) with about every powder you can think of. In no case are the results such that I would attempt anything beyond 200yds. In fact, personally I think 150yds is stretching it. I get palm sized groups at 100yds, which for my “niche” is just fine. The Barnes Black Tips may indeed expand down to 1300fps, but if you can’t accurately take advantage of that...

I spent the weekend blasting away with the .300, along with my Palmetto 7.62 Krink-thing. If I had to choose between the two, I chose the Krink. Ammo is cheap, still has authority out to a useful distance, and it’s more accurate too. It’s a tad bigger than the Blackout, and can’t hide in a backpack. It does fine in the girly/hippie violin case, but I’d like to find something more “grey”.

[SecondsCount]

I get palm sized groups at 100yds, which for my “niche” is just fine. The Barnes Black Tips may indeed expand down to 1300fps, but if you can’t accurately take advantage of that...
...

That would be disappointing

[entropy]

Maybe I’m just “challenged” but when it’s all said and done, it’s still a 7-8” barrel. It doesn’t matter how wiz-bang the round is. You’re going to get a certain level of accuracy out of it period.

[Welder]

Maybe I’m just “challenged” but when it’s all said and done, it’s still a 7-8” barrel. It doesn’t matter how wiz-bang the round is. You’re going to get a certain level of accuracy out of it period.

Idk, while researching that 9" AAC upper this morning, I ran across multiple mentions of it getting MOA groups with quality optics, give or take 1/4" at 100 yards. Having not seen it myself, I can't hang my hat on that.

But I think at least some of our thinking on shorter barrels being less accurate goes back to irons-only days where short barreled rifles had a reputation for inaccuracy which had less to do with barrel length and more to do with sight radius. Thus the 'bloop tube' on modern smallbore competition rifles to get that front sight out there but reduce the amount of time that slow bullet is traveling down the barrel being affected by any unsteadiness in your position.

[OlongJohnson]

Mechanical accuracy does not depend on barrel length.

[RevolverRob]

To put it bluntly - A gun that can not shoot better than 3" groups at 100 yards with any ammunition - has a mechanical problem, not an ammo problem.

[entropy]

Mechanical accuracy does not depend on barrel length.

No it does not. But when you stick a flat based bullet with a low BC into a relatively small case and then adjust powders to attempt performance...you get what you get. Some cartridges just “sing”. The .243. The .308. The .300BO does not “sing”. It is however good for what it does.

I’m not ignorant to the mechanics of long range accuracy either. I routinely take a .300wm past 1300yds and have learned a whole bunch in the interim. The .300 has it’s limits.

[rob_s]

The only thing I don't get about .300blk is when people buy 16" ARs in it, as one friend of mine did.

I was able to offer "well that's cool, if you spend enough time shooting her you'll certainly develop a good sense of how the round performs."

But in reality it's going to get 100 rounds a year at short range through paper and he will definitely learn nothing from it

It’s a funny thing, that. “We” might talk about cost of ammo, training, etc. but if, like you say, it’s basically never going to get shot, it probably doesn’t matter. It’s the reason most of my conversations with neophytes goes...
Them: what AR/handgun should it buy?
Me: a Colt/Glock
T: what about a POF/Sig?
M: yeah, that’s good too, get a couple of those.

There’s just no point dragging it out. I actually had a friend call me up the other day, someone I’ve known for 15 years, who is pretty into guns, and say “parts is parts”. If that guy, who knows *me*, after all this time is still insisting “parts is parts” then there’s just really no helping.

Your story did remind me though, I had another friend back home. Lived on some acreage right next to some big unimproved land. Every year he took his AK and out into the woods and shot a deer. Dragged it home, cleaned it, froze it, ate it until it was gone, and repeated the following year. He had the same box of softpoint ammo for as long as I knew him. Never needed more than one round a year. A 16” .300 might be the millennial equivalent.

[mmc45414]

Arguing that one is stupid and has no point or that one is better than all the rest for everything is stupid.
But boy, do shooting nerds sure tend to do it. I have always wondered why there is the urge to declare one thing as The One Thing, no matter if it is a Glock or 5.56. I have stuck to that vow of monogamy I made almost four decades ago but I fer damn sure like to shoot different guns and ride different motorcycles.

I am tinkering around with 300BO and am enjoying it. There were several factors that pushed me there and only a few (one?) are logical. I really do not like the blast of the 5.56 out of a 16" barrel. And as I became curious about the AR pistol idea I knew I would like the blast even less. And I had a bunch of screwed up LC cases, and forming them into 300BO has been more fun than tossing them in the trash. And I can load it with H110 that I am going to have around anyway. And the 16" Ruger Ranch is not exactly like having a can, but it sure is pretty mellow. And now I have backed into an estate sale deal on a metric buttload of pulled .308 bullets that I will have fun loading and shooting. None of these "reasons" make the 5.56 stupid.

Another "stupid" thing I have is my 9mm AR, and I was reluctant to get one a decade ago before the cool kids embraced them, because I thought they were stupid. But it sure has brought a smile to my face thousands of times. And if all things must be practical, shooting it at the pistol plates we already have setup for pistol practice has brought me more carbine trigger time than ever before. And starting next Monday my local club is starting up steel challenge matches, soooo.... :cool:

[SouthNarc]

To put it bluntly - A gun that can not shoot better than 3" groups at 100 yards with any ammunition - has a mechanical problem, not an ammo problem.


Here's the Rattler in a Ransom Rest at 50 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kShdKE7e6jM

[texasaggie2005]

Here's the Rattler in a Ransom Rest at 50 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kShdKE7e6jM

Here is the Rattler @ 100 yards.


https://youtu.be/BY2aeWfmF9M

[Rex G]

I’ve found the .300 not to be a particularly accurate round. I’ve loaded various 110gr-130gr, the 150-165s and also some heavies (208AMAX that I use in 300WM) with about every powder you can think of. In no case are the results such that I would attempt anything beyond 200yds. In fact, personally I think 150yds is stretching it. I get palm sized groups at 100yds, which for my “niche” is just fine. The Barnes Black Tips may indeed expand down to 1300fps, but if you can’t accurately take advantage of that...


100 to 150 yards is ample, for anything I foresee happening, in my region and environment, so, 300 AAC/BLK makes sense in my niche, too.

Actually, one reason that my M2 Benellis remain my go-to defensive long guns, is because most bad things, locally, happen within shotgun range. A Benelli M2 cannot be made very short, however, for more-discreet portability, due to the recoil spring tube extending deeply into the butt stock, and, 12 gauge ammo gets heavy, and bulky, really quick, if one starts feeling a need to tote very much of it.

A draw-back to acquiring a Rattler, or similar, PDW, however, is that my wife wants one, too, so, I have to budget for two; hers-and-his. ;) (Whoever coined “his-and-hers” has never met my wife.) It is nice, however, to have a wife who is not bothered the acquisition of firearms, and related cool toys. :)

[entropy]

Yep. Everything has a purpose. I’ve never put mine into a Ransom rest so not sure there, but on the back deck, off a couple of sandbags, this is what it is...and thats fine. Optic is a ACSS with a 3x. Different tools for different jobs. Unless of course we’re talking about MY wife. I never knew a flat bladed screwdriver could do so any things...lol

[joshs]

Yesterday I listened to the Colion Noir + Kevin Brittingham podcast they recorded together last month. Of course there was a lot of 300 Blackout talk and comparing it to .223/5.56. Kevin told again what I've heard him say for years: It was developed as a replacement for the MP5-SD, subsonic, etc. Cool, whatever, got it. Then he jumps into the "and switch to supers and now you're effective to 400yds" and that's the part where I feel like everyone jumps the shark.

In my experience actually shooting guns, having your sighting system zeroed to the load you're shooting and then knowing where to hold to account for distance, or even to account for a different load is CRITICAL to successful hits. Every time I've tried to go down the 300 Blackout rabbit hole, the zero thing is always the sticking point. As far as I can tell from looking at ballistic charts and reading others' experience, there's not a good zero that works for subs and supers.

For instance, if there was something like, 25yd Subsonic zero = 100yd Supersonic zero, and then holds that were something like 50yd sub/200yd super, 75yd sub/300yd super, 100yd sub/400yd super...that would make sense and be manageable. But everything I've seen says you have to pick either subs or supers and then zero for that load because they're not close enough. Well, that just kills the whole "oh yeah, just toss in a mag of supers and suddenly you're good to 400yds."

If I'm wrong, tell me and I'll try to understand.

I think the entire subs and supers thing is overrated, but a 5-6 inch carbine (PDW?) that still suppresses reasonably well and has an almost 300 yard effective range isn't "stupid."

[okie john]

If you need a .24 or larger caliber to hunt with and barrel length minimum is 16", like here in WA, that's one reason, but I'd probably just hunt with my AK at that point.

I had a 16" 300 Blackout upper for a while for this exact reason. I hunt the same place every year. My longest shot there in the last 20 years was about 90 yards and my average is more like 30. Due to heavy rain, proximity to salt water, and several other things, I was interested in a super-rugged rifle that I could just hose off after a hunt. The 300 quickly revealed itself as a potential multi-thousand dollar rabbit hole that was a strong solution for one situation and a distinct liability anywhere else. I can solve that problem for half the money with a stainless/synthetic 308 bolt action, and for a quarter of the money with a Ruger Super Blackhawk.

I'd reconsider a gas gun for that hunt if our Fish & Wildlife folks ever legalize the 5.56 for deer, but it won't be a 300 Blackout.


Okie John

[Casual Friday]

I had a 16" 300 Blackout upper for a while for this exact reason. I hunt the same place every year. My longest shot there in the last 20 years was about 90 yards and my average is more like 30. Due to heavy rain, proximity to salt water, and several other things, I was interested in a super-rugged rifle that I could just hose off after a hunt. The 300 quickly revealed itself as a potential multi-thousand dollar rabbit hole that was a strong solution for one situation and a distinct liability anywhere else. I can solve that problem for half the money with a stainless/synthetic 308 bolt action, and for a quarter of the money with a Ruger Super Blackhawk.

I'd reconsider a gas gun for that hunt if our Fish & Wildlife folks ever legalize the 5.56 for deer, but it won't be a 300 Blackout.


Okie John

People who've never hunted on the west side of WA always have a hard time wrapping their head around how thick the timber is here.

[Rex G]

People who've never hunted on the west side of WA always have a hard time wrapping their head around how thick the timber is here.

Never hunted there, but have visited, and walked through some of it.

East and SE Texas is lush and green, too, unlike shown in cowboy movies. The nearby “Big Thicket” is well-named. When the stereotypical handgun, around here, was a .357 Magnum revolver, into the Nineties, plenty of deer, and feral hogs, around here, were taken by handguns, as targets of opportunity, if not by planning.

[okie john]

People who've never hunted on the west side of WA always have a hard time wrapping their head around how thick the timber is here.

Yep. It’s straight-up jungle but the weather is cold.


Okie John

[RevolverRob]

Never hunted there, but have visited, and walked through some of it.

East and SE Texas is lush and green, too, unlike shown in cowboy movies. The nearby “Big Thicket” is well-named. When the stereotypical handgun, around here, was a .357 Magnum revolver, into the Nineties, plenty of deer, and feral hogs, around here, were taken by handguns, as targets of opportunity, if not by planning.

Indeed. Most of the south eastern U.S. is fairly thick and only basically agricultural fields are open spaces. A very different world, in many respects, from places west of I35 and north of I40. As a kid, our land (in north east Texas) backed up to a fairly sizeable chunk of pine and oak forest. The deer were on the bigger side from the scrawny things I saw later in and around Austin, though not the size of some of them I've seen up here in Hellinois (I saw a 12-pointer about 18-months ago, that probably would have been 175+ pounds dressed, he was HUGE, biggest damn whitetail I've ever seen). Hogs weren't quite as bad then as they are these days, but they were around along with coyotes.

Anyways, when I'd traipse off into the woods to hunt it was usually with a .30-30 or a 12-gauge, well eventually.

I tried at first a few times with my dad's bolt action .243, which worked well in our plowed and cleared fields on all the things. It was lighter than my Marlin and had a better scope, so it was nicer to carry. But it all came to an end the one time I shot at a sow at too long a distance (probably on about 60-yards) in heavy brush and the round was deflected and struck in front of the sow's shoulder, instead of in the shoulder itself. I learned my lesson that lighter bullets (90-grain softpoint) are rather easily deflected if you're on the ground and shooting through thick brush. From a tree stand, above, it would have been a okay shot, but on the ground it wasn't acceptable.

I spent a couple of hours trying to track the hog through thick brush and it got away. Which resulted in me losing my hunting privileges for six months (a valid punishment), because I violated the rule taking shots that could guarantee ethical kills, with the gun I was using. I can't help but think a 150 or 170-grain .30-30 would have hit that damn thing in the shoulder and dropped her. But I wasn't carrying a .30-30 and I should have not taken the shot with the .243.

That was another of those formative moments in my young brain about shooting, like when I tried to kill a pissed off raccoon with a .410, that taught me a lot about picking the right caliber for the job. I've always err'ed on the side of small enough I can shoot it without flinching, big enough that it can put the animal down cleanly, in the environment and distance I am in. I admit, that is why I don't care much 5.56 as a hunting round, because it can be marginal on clean kills depending on the distance and environment.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

It’s a funny thing, that. “We” might talk about cost of ammo, training, etc. but if, like you say, it’s basically never going to get shot, it probably doesn’t matter. It’s the reason most of my conversations with neophytes goes...
Them: what AR/handgun should it buy?
Me: a Colt/Glock
T: what about a POF/Sig?
M: yeah, that’s good too, get a couple of those.

There’s just no point dragging it out. I actually had a friend call me up the other day, someone I’ve known for 15 years, who is pretty into guns, and say “parts is parts”. If that guy, who knows *me*, after all this time is still insisting “parts is parts” then there’s just really no helping.

Your story did remind me though, I had another friend back home. Lived on some acreage right next to some big unimproved land. Every year he took his AK and out into the woods and shot a deer. Dragged it home, cleaned it, froze it, ate it until it was gone, and repeated the following year. He had the same box of softpoint ammo for as long as I knew him. Never needed more than one round a year. A 16” .300 might be the millennial equivalent.

I feel there is a certain zen that arrives once you get to a point at which someone says "look at this awesome derp I just got" and your reaction is just "cool, have a good time."

I remember being immersed in a torrent of shrieking outrage one time on a different forum when I pointed out that, intellectual property questions aside, a Cold Steel GI Tanto would probably do just as good a job as a legit Strider for the overwhelming majority of Strider owners, considering the main task they were being asked to handle was "hold down the bottom of a display case." That's an extreme example but the thing is, out of everyone that asks me questions about guns, maybe one or two people total would ever benefit from having a BCM or Colt instead of whatever they chose.

So my position these days is just "play safe, enjoy your life with whatever gun you want, and have fun storming the castle."

[OlongJohnson]

Do the same with cars, if you get those questions.

[okie john]

Indeed. Most of the south eastern U.S. is fairly thick and only basically agricultural fields are open spaces.

It's the same here. You can be up to your ears in brush with potential shots are measured in feet, then step into a clearcut where reaching out several hundred yards is an option. Gas guns that can do that are way heavier than bolt guns that can do that.


Okie John

[OlongJohnson]

One difference is mountains. SE Texas is as flat as the Skagit flats for hours and hours.

The other difference is the dew point.

[Casual Friday]

I feel there is a certain zen that arrives once you get to a point at which someone says "look at this awesome derp I just got" and your reaction is just "cool, have a good time."

I remember being immersed in a torrent of shrieking outrage one time on a different forum when I pointed out that, intellectual property questions aside, a Cold Steel GI Tanto would probably do just as good a job as a legit Strider for the overwhelming majority of Strider owners, considering the main task they were being asked to handle was "hold down the bottom of a display case." That's an extreme example but the thing is, out of everyone that asks me questions about guns, maybe one or two people total would ever benefit from having a BCM or Colt instead of whatever they chose.

So my position these days is just "play safe, enjoy your life with whatever gun you want, and have fun storming the castle."

I thought gun people were weirdos until I got to know a couple knife people. They have the same long, drawn out arguments that we do about "which zero is the best" or "which 124 grain JHP will perform the best", except theirs are about heat treatment and which blade steel is the best.

[JRB]

I thought gun people were weirdos until I got to know a couple knife people. They have the same long, drawn out arguments that we do about "which zero is the best" or "which 124 grain JHP will perform the best", except theirs are about heat treatment and which blade steel is the best.

That's the goddamn truth! Considering some of those collections, I'm pretty certain that 98%+ of the world's finest knives never actually cut anything.

[Casual Friday]

That's the goddamn truth! Considering some of those collections, I'm pretty certain that 98%+ of the world's finest knives never actually cut anything.

Yep, both those guys I worked with had drawers full of knives that had never opened an envelope. One of them saw me opening a box one day with my Kershaw Blur and kinda tried to poke fun at it. I know they're not super high quality, but the Blur is a pretty solid knife for the money. I just said "Meh, a knife is a knife" and watched him nearly stroke out.

Same dude carried a Hi Point in one of those nylon sausage sack holsters. Priorities.

[RevolverRob]

Yep, both those guys I worked with had drawers full of knives that had never opened an envelope. One of them saw me opening a box one day with my Kershaw Blur and kinda tried to poke fun at it. I know they're not super high quality, but the Blur is a pretty solid knife for the money. I just said "Meh, a knife is a knife" and watched him nearly stroke out.

Same dude carried a Hi Point in one of those nylon sausage sack holsters. Priorities.

I just developed an eye twitch.

Kershaw Blur is a fine blade. Next time you get a cross-eyed look about it, just ask them if they want to test it themselves, by offering to stab them in the butt. :rolleyes: :eek:

Or better yet, offer to 'customize' his Hi-Point, I bet you can whittle away some of that zamak with your Blur...

[OlongJohnson]

Kershaw Blur is a fine blade. Next time you get a cross-eyed look about it, just ask them if they want to test it themselves, by offering to stab them in the butt. :rolleyes: :eek:

Not the butt. But not the dick either. Maybe there's some place in between, that ain't either one...

[RevolverRob]

Not the butt. But not the dick either. Maybe there's some place in between, that ain't either one...

Someplace you can’t tourniquet?

[Casual Friday]

I just developed an eye twitch.

Kershaw Blur is a fine blade. Next time you get a cross-eyed look about it, just ask them if they want to test it themselves, by offering to stab them in the butt. :rolleyes: :eek:

Or better yet, offer to 'customize' his Hi-Point, I bet you can whittle away some of that zamak with your Blur...

Thankfully, I don't work there anymore. He looked at me with genuine confusion when I told him that Hi Points were garbage. A gun is a gun to him.

[GearFondler]

And a few of us are Gun and Knife people... We have to shake our heads at damn near everyone! [emoji23]
And don't even get me started on the Flashlight Geeks who can spend a week arguing about whether a white LED is slightly too blue or too green. :D

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I thought gun people were weirdos until I got to know a couple knife people. They have the same long, drawn out arguments that we do about "which zero is the best" or "which 124 grain JHP will perform the best", except theirs are about heat treatment and which blade steel is the best.

Yeah that's a higher level of spectrum disorder, no doubt...you really get into craziness there since the performance of HKs vs Hi-Points is pretty easy to tabulate and relate back to something you might actually do, like compete.

The performance of 154CM vs D2 in the context of a bunch of guys who basically don't do manual tasks is pretty esoteric and rapidly seems to turn into a situation of "trying to find lab tests to confirm an improved theoretical value."

When I used to own a Busse family knife, I worked in rough construction and kept it on my belt and used it to chop stuff at work all the time. I knew exactly what it did well and what it did poorly, not because whatever steel it was made out of could be shown in a lab to have a wear rate below a certain level, but because I was in the process of relocating a street and had to turn a lot of 2x2s into stakes I could hammer into the ground, and hack off all the lines the excavator snagged. The big knife was faster than firing up saws all the time so it got tons of use.

Meanwhile knife forums are, in my experience at least, dominated by a bunch of weird non-verbal database engineers who open boxes from Amazon once in a while.


Don't get me wrong, I really love knives and edged tools of all sorts. I just find the scene to be dominated by collectors over users to an even greater degree than the gun scene.

[StraitR]

300blk gets me rifle ballistics at realistic distances, in a backpack. That's the singular draw for me, nothing more, nothing less.

I've personally found it more useful than any 16" 5.56 carbine in my safe. The same principal we apply to EDC handgun size, applies here, which is a person is better served by a smaller gun they'll carry, than a bigger gun they'll leave at home.

So a more useful question might be, "How much do I value having compact rifle capability with me outside of the home?". If the short answer is "little to no value", then 300blk isn't likely worth the squeeze. If the answer is "I find value in that", then it's really the best option currently.

The rest is icing and fluff.

[RevolverRob]

Don't get me wrong, I really love knives and edged tools of all sorts. I just find the scene to be dominated by collectors over users to an even greater degree than the gun scene.

Pretty much. And these days even worse it seems to be dominated by pocket trash collectors as opposed to knives. I like my Top Popper, it cost like 90 bucks (it is a 'blem', though damned if I can find the 'blem') - I'm not sure why I want a to pay $760 for a knuckle that doesn't appear particularly functional (https://www.arizonacustomknives.com/395008.html).

I've gone in a big loop on knives. I started out, "A knife is a knife." - Then got way into knife steels and design. Now I've come to the conclusion - It doesn't matter as long as the knife can perform the task I need without breaking or needing to be resharpened in the middle of the task. By and large the steels used in production knives today can do exactly that. So just about any blade will do. When it comes to a defensive fixed blade carried concealed - the sheath matters more than the blade. Still, I like nice knives, owning them, using them, and even just looking at them

___

Okay that's enough knife thread drift - let's get back to calling different rifle cartridges stupid.

You guys know what is dumb? .257 Roberts and .257 Weatherby Magnum...So why do I have an irrational desire for guns in those calibers?

Also, .458 SOCOM is dumb and yet I really want a .458 gun. I don't even hunt right now and I have dreams of smashing through the underbrush chasing hogzilla, with a .458 SOCOM.

[LittleLebowski]

Meanwhile knife forums are, in my experience at least, dominated by a bunch of weird non-verbal database engineers who open boxes from Amazon once in a while.


Don't get me wrong, I really love knives and edged tools of all sorts. I just find the scene to be dominated by collectors over users to an even greater degree than the gun scene.

That's a personal attack against blues :D

[Casual Friday]

Also, .458 SOCOM is dumb and yet I really want a .458 gun. I don't even hunt right now and I have dreams of smashing through the underbrush chasing hogzilla, with a .458 SOCOM.

When you decide to scratch that itch, a .458 SOCOM from Tromix is the way to go.

[OlongJohnson]

Also, .458 SOCOM is dumb and yet I really want a .458 gun. I don't even hunt right now and I have dreams of smashing through the underbrush chasing hogzilla, with a .458 SOCOM.

.375 SOCOM for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.375_SOCOM

[RevolverRob]

.375 SOCOM for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.375_SOCOM

Yea, that'd be cool too, basically a semi-auto gas-gun .375 Ruger. I wonder if you can stuff a 300-grain solid into it and get it nigh 2000fps?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

That's a personal attack against blues :D

I actually gave some traditional, guilt-ridden Canadian consideration to that exact topic before clicking submit, and the penultimate sentence was introduced solely to reduce offense to the aforementioned party. Not kidding.

[LittleLebowski]

I might derail this thread, but I...did some shooting with my .300BO and I apologize for that.

I loaded up 217gr cast and coated bullets over a subsonic load of LilGun and let her rip out of my SR30 on my back property (safe, legal) at 25 yards from the standing. The rifle was and is still zeroed for my hunting load, which is 150gr ballistic tips that took an 8 point whitetail at Giving Back's place last hunting season. One shot, one kill. I always gave my Energetic Vox S can on this rifle.

As far as I can tell, it's about 4" drop at 25 and no windage change between the two loads. I know that I'm probably dead on the streets for thinking this, but...I can work with that. I can do holdovers for social distancing drills enough that I can train with cheap subsonic ammo and put the weapon away with proven supersonic commercial ammo. Or, I could twist an elevation knob.

56079

56080

[Welder]

To add to LL's thread drift, I totally did a 180 on getting rid of my 9" upper and came home from NoVA with a 16" AAC upper tonight. I didn't mean to...I just got on VAguntrader to look around a little, and then poof! I don't even know what I'd use a 16" one for. But it was on there for $600 and I talked the guy down to $450, and then when he gave it to me it had a set of $200 DueckDefense RTS offset irons on it and a set of the KAC rail guards for the URX rail which have to cost $0.50 to make but you pay like $100 to buy.

Now I have to drag myself upstairs at some point and go through my reloading stuff and see if I actually ever bought any of that BLK junk I meant to way back when I got the 9" upper.

So yeah, BLK is stupid, and now so am I.

[Robinson]

LittleLebowski -- If I may, what barrel length are you using? Are those KAC hand guards? Also, what's the sight you have mounted?

I keep toying with the idea of adding a 300BLK SBR to my safe. It would pair nicely with my Omega. I like the AccuPower on my bolt gun, but I think I would go with something else on a SBR.

[JM Campbell]

LittleLebowski -- If I may, what barrel length are you using? Are those KAC hand guards? Also, what's the sight you have mounted?

I keep toying with the idea of adding a 300BLK SBR to my safe. It would pair nicely with my Omega. I like the AccuPower on my bolt gun, but I think I would go with something else on a SBR.

He has a complete Knights Armament SR30 upper assembly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

LittleLebowski -- If I may, what barrel length are you using? Are those KAC hand guards? Also, what's the sight you have mounted?

I keep toying with the idea of adding a 300BLK SBR to my safe. It would pair nicely with my Omega. I like the AccuPower on my bolt gun, but I think I would go with something else on a SBR.

It’s an SR30, but a rare (I think) 11.5” factory barrel. KAC URX 3.1 (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/ar-15-m16-urx-iii-3-1-forends-prod68569.aspx) rail and the absolutely awesome Primary Arms adv red dot (https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-advanced-micro-dot-with-push-buttons-and-up-to-50k-hour-battery-life-red-dot).

[Robinson]

It’s an SR30, but a rare (I think) 11.5” factory barrel. KAC URX 3.1 (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/ar-15-m16-urx-iii-3-1-forends-prod68569.aspx) rail and the absolutely awesome Primary Arms adv red dot (https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-advanced-micro-dot-with-push-buttons-and-up-to-50k-hour-battery-life-red-dot).

Thanks for the links.

[LittleLebowski]

Thanks for the links.

For what it’s worth, I’ve got the same red dot on a 1301 that I have taken to one TCinVA shotgun class. No issues whatsoever.

[LittleLebowski]

He has a complete Knights Armament SR30 upper assembly.


I owe you load data, but I’m not entirely done fiddling with my subsonic 217gr load yet.

[LittleLebowski]

Here's the Rattler in a Ransom Rest at 50 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kShdKE7e6jM

Not seeing a problem here. I have serious doubt that the Rattler is inherently inaccurate with all ammo. Most guns can be made accurate through ammo selection/tailoring and if there was a manufacturing issue, I’m sure it would be easily fixed.