Fleeing suspect jumps into lake and drowns; family wants pursuing officers fired

[the Schwartz]

Evidently, police officers are now expected to risk drowning to save uncooperative, fleeing suspects from situations that they (the offenders) get themselves into:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-drowns-officers-coming-aid-family-fired/story?id=71172077

ETA: Of all of the water rescue training that I have had (while working for a police department on one of the Great Lakes) in my LE career, none of it ever required that officers put themselves in danger (We do not add to the 'body count') to effect a rescue.

[LittleLebowski]

This is an area in which I have professional expertise (rescues while in clothing and gear). Absolutely not on the idea of cops being expected to perform water rescues like this.

My background: https://www.businessinsider.com/marine-combat-water-survival-course-2013-5

[the Schwartz]

This is an area in which I have professional expertise (rescues while in clothing and gear). Absolutely not on the idea of cops being expected to perform water rescues like this.

My background: https://www.businessinsider.com/marine-combat-water-survival-course-2013-5

I am most decidedly not an expert in the area and have the good sense not to jump into the water after a fleeing suspect whose (probable) intent is to drown me to effect his/her own escape. I've seen training of the sort that you mention—I believe that it was BUD/S—where they are thrown, hands-bound behind them, into a pool and told to 'make it work'. I am Open Water SCUBA certified so being under water is not a big deal to me, but damn...some of what they had to was waaaaayyy beyond my comfort level.

About a year before I retired, we had a kid (18, maybe 20, years of age) riding a stolen bike who bailed and tried jumping across a large drainage ditch that was filled with about 10 feet of water and loaded with all kinds of brush and debris as he fled from us. Not sure exactly where he went in, but we looked for him and never found him, assumed that he'd gotten out down-stream and just kept running. About 90 minutes later, our dive team found him snagged/twisted up in bramble at the bottom of the ditch a few dozen yards from where we thought he jumped in. Point of all this is, is with all kinds of gear (soft body armor, Sam Browne belt and equipment pouches) and clothes, even a strong swimmer would have a hard time holding their own let alone trying to rescue someone who might not wanna cooperate in their ''rescue''. LE has already devolved into a kind of ''no matter what you do, you can't win'' and it looks like it is getting worse.

While I am pleased to be done with the profession, I pray everyday for those who are in the field doing a thankless job. They are indeed the real heroes!

[LittleLebowski]

Yeah, the hands and ankles tied thing isn’t a big deal to me. Now, full combat gear (not tied up) was a motherfucker.

[TGS]

Yeah, the hands and ankles tied thing isn’t a big deal to me. Now, full combat gear (not tied up) was a motherfucker.

MCIWS is legit, dude. Props. IIRC, I was Q rated, by a hair. That underwater swim portion in cammies absolutely murdered me.

[LittleLebowski]

MCIWS is legit, dude. Props. IIRC, I was Q rated, by a hair. That underwater swim portion in cammies absolutely murdered me.

It was totally worth it to work at two different training tanks :D

An underwater swim in boots, cammies with pockets open, Kevlar, flack, and deuce gear hurts :D

[RevolverRob]

What's next...if someone runs from the cops in a car and their car crashes and they die - the cops are guilty of their deaths?

[LittleLebowski]

This is an area in which I have professional expertise (rescues while in clothing and gear). Absolutely not on the idea of cops being expected to perform water rescues like this.

My background: https://www.businessinsider.com/marine-combat-water-survival-course-2013-5


https://youtu.be/wAlCv-FTGwM

[AKDoug]

I don't have the training LL does, but I do have two accredited swiftwater rescue classes under my belt. It was beat into us to not attempt rescues unless properly equipped. The portion of the class where we simulated combative victims was eye opening. Even fully equipped with PFD's it was extremely difficult to rescue someone that did not want to be.

[Dog Guy]

The year I started in SAR we had a 7 year old kid chase a beach ball into a popular local lake. He started thrashing so an athletic 35 year old man went in to save him. The little guy got a hold of the man and they both drowned. Panicked people in water are a legit life threat to rescuers. I participated in and taught river rescue as a swimmer for about 30 years. There's no way I would advocate that any responder attempt an in-water rescue without training and practice.

[LittleLebowski]

The downing victim will absolutely try snatch you up and climb on top of you. We trained for hours each day to deal with that and usually in full gear. Always in the deep end. TGS we did formations on the bottom at 15’ :D

Skip to 1:12 in this video to see how we trained for drowning victims. This was easily the hardest part of the course; “Rescue Practice Time.”


https://youtu.be/ClYo4Nz_YT8

[BehindBlueI's]

What's next...if someone runs from the cops in a car and their car crashes and they die - the cops are guilty of their deaths?

That's not "next", that's been a thing for awhile in some people's eyes and in civil lawsuits.

I was never sued over the guy I shot. The cops who tried to stop him on foot were, though. They lost, but the argument was if those cops hadn't tried to stop him he wouldn't have shot a cop and fled. If he hadn't shot a cop and fled we wouldn't have chased him. If we hadn't chased him he wouldn't have kept shooting at us. If he hadn't kept shooting at us we wouldn't have shot him. Therefore the whole thing was the fault of the cop who stopped him on foot that kicked it all off.

[RevolverRob]

That's not "next", that's been a thing for awhile in some people's eyes and in civil lawsuits.

I was never sued over the guy I shot. The cops who tried to stop him on foot were, though. They lost, but the argument was if those cops hadn't tried to stop him he wouldn't have shot a cop and fled. If he hadn't shot a cop and fled we wouldn't have chased him. If we hadn't chased him he wouldn't have kept shooting at us. If he hadn't kept shooting at us we wouldn't have shot him. Therefore the whole thing was the fault of the cop who stopped him on foot that kicked it all off.

Well, the good news is...this won't be a problem when we defund the police.

Instead, people will just outright kill the criminals to begin with. And hey...since there will be no cops to investigate and collect evidence, or present that evidence to a DA - it's gonna be a lot harder for someone to sue.

[JohnO]

And hey...since there will be no cops to investigate and collect evidence, or present that evidence to a DA - it's gonna be a lot harder for someone to sue.

No, it’s even better! No DA, no criminal courts, no jails, no prisons, no correctional officers, no bail bondsmen and no criminal defense attorneys. You think there are ambulance chasers out there now? Wait till all the criminal work dries up.

[the Schwartz]

What's next...if someone runs from the cops in a car and their car crashes and they die - the cops are guilty of their deaths?

To this question, Rob, civil liability has driven most departments to implement policies that limit, and in many cases even prohibit, vehicle pursuits depending upon the offense(s) precipitating the pursuit.

For instance, my retiring department has all but eliminated vehicle pursuits except for a very small number of serious violent offenses and even under those circumstances, a command officer—or even a line officer—is expected to ''call off'' the pursuit if liability issues are perceived to ''outweigh'' the benefit of apprehending the offender being pursued. In fact, there are even several LE agencies that have done away with pursuits altogether and actually by written policy (usually in the Department Manual) PROHIBIT ALL pursuits for ANY reason. Policies like these have been in place for over 20 years now; the reduction of civil liability being the chief driver of these administrative positions.

[the Schwartz]

Well, the good news is...this won't be a problem when we defund the police.

Instead, people will just outright kill the criminals to begin with. And hey...since there will be no cops to investigate and collect evidence, or present that evidence to a DA - it's gonna be a lot harder for someone to sue.

I am not so sure about that, Rob. Given the present situation in the newly created ''autonomous zone'' (in Seattle) where they've essentially created their own enforcement mechanism (plenty of images of these folks totin' ARs and AKs around as ''security''), I'd imagine that taking such action (self-defense shootings, shooting a burglar or mugger, etc.) will be handled in a way that will resemble what is seen in most 3rd-world dictatorships....or worse. Sue someone? Yeah, maybe, if you are still alive to do so.