Why policemen are leaving

[Duces Tecum]

The surprise is only that it took so long.

The link says it all.

https://www.lawofficer.com/america-we-are-leaving/ (https://www.lawofficer.com/america-we-are-leaving/)

[JRB]

Sadly, this is not a new problem. It is a problem that has reached a fever pitch with this recent round of utter insanity.

I don't know a single currently badged Officer that is not dreaming of retirement and trying to retire as early as possible. A lot of good people, and literally every single one of them wants out.

[Erick Gelhaus]

It started a few, several years back with cops leaving agencies they perceived unwilling to support them.

Now, it seems they're leaving the profession.

[BehindBlueI's]

Even the guys who stay are going to be more, shall we say, circumspect in their proactive work and investigations.

I've said it before and it seems relevant here. Nobody gets fired for not catching a criminal. Nobody goes to jail for not pursing a suspect. Catch him and he fights, it's all liability at this point.

[blues]

Even the guys who stay are going to be more, shall we say, circumspect in their proactive work and investigations.

I've said it before and it seems relevant here. Nobody gets fired for not catching a criminal. Nobody goes to jail for not pursing a suspect. Catch him and he fights, it's all liability at this point.

I've mentioned previously that one time my partner and I went out and dealt with a guy who was suspected of something or other...I forget all the details.

Anyway, he made a complaint that I put hands on him. (I hadn't. I may have have nudged him.)

When we got back to the office the SAC and DSAC were standing there and wanted a full report on what had transpired. After I briefed them they asked me why the guy hadn't been brought back to the office bloodied up and in handcuffs.

And I said, "You'd have backed us up, of course."

Crickets.

The handwriting has been on the wall for at least a couple of decades. It's just become much easier to read.

[Duces Tecum]

Now, it seems they're leaving the profession.

Not to thread drift, but . . . serious question . . . leaving and going where? Excluding the men approaching retirement, where are the young ones going? What skill sets have they developed on duty that (a) are transferable and (b) don't involve the liabilities of security work?

I'm thinking, Erick, that a pretty decent living might be made out of placing cops who've hadituptohere to work in veteran owned businesses. That seems it could be a kind of natural fit, don't you think?

[BehindBlueI's]

Not to thread drift, but . . . serious question . . . leaving and going where? Excluding the men approaching retirement, where are the young ones going? What skill sets have they developed on duty that (a) are transferable and (b) don't involve the liabilities of security work?

I'm thinking, Erick, that a pretty decent living might be made out of placing cops who've hadituptohere to work in veteran owned businesses. That seems it could be a kind of natural fit, don't you think?

We haven't seen a mass exodus yet, but insurance/fraud investigation seems to be a common one if they leave law enforcement. Migrating to smaller towns and less busy call loads and accepting the pay cut seems more common then leaving entirely, though. We pay enough that we gain more laterals then we lose so far, but our even accepting laterals is a pretty new thing and entirely due to reduced recruiting pools. When I came on everyone, even if they were sworn already elsewhere, had to do the full academy without exception.

[Willard]

Excluding the men approaching retirement, where are the young ones going? What skill sets have they developed on duty that (a) are transferable and (b) don't involve the liabilities of security work?

You typed "don't involve liabilities of security work," so cull what you wish, but security consultant, alarm & home or business security system consultant, executive protection, personal defense trainer, automobile accident consultant for insurance companies, private investigator, assistant to law firms, etc (to include private/contract police force). Fairly easy for them to retool if young. Keep in mind they pass background investigations, mental health, and physical requirements that eliminate a lot of the rest of the population from consideration for hire, much less a challenging academy. I happen to believe that is transferrable to a lot of things. There are also professional associations that help with the retool. Can likely be expanded in this day and age. Personally, I think this is a case study for an "Atlas Shrugged" profession.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Not to thread drift, but . . . serious question . . . leaving and going where? Excluding the men approaching retirement, where are the young ones going? What skill sets have they developed on duty that (a) are transferable and (b) don't involve the liabilities of security work?

I'm thinking, Erick, that a pretty decent living might be made out of placing cops who've hadituptohere to work in veteran owned businesses. That seems it could be a kind of natural fit, don't you think?

A few years back, an agency local to me had some internal frustrations over how an event was handled. Aside from retirements, that org would lose one to another agency elsewhere or another career every 2-3 years. In one year, they lost 12 or 10% of their patrol division. Other agencies or other states.

This week I had a conversation with a fairly young cop there with a young family. He's actively considering another line of work.

I don't know enough about business, in general, to hypothesize on former cops being a good fit with Vet owned businesses. I imagine that could work if one knew enough people in both worlds.

Unfortunately, my business sense is such that I flipped the switch on starting a new company the first week of March.

[TGS]

A few years back, an agency local to me had some internal frustrations over how an event was handled. Aside from retirements, that org would lose one to another agency elsewhere or another career every 2-3 years. In one year, they lost 12 or 10% of their patrol division. Other agencies or other states.

It used to be the case that certain cities sent out recruiters to poach pretty heavily. I think it was Seattle (ironically) that even had a full-time recruiter permanently assigned to NYC when NYPD was still getting paid below the poverty line. I remember one of my college buddies with DC Metro PD back in 2007 told me about a few cities in other states that still had lateral transfer agreements for them, no need to go through a full police academy again.

Is this active recruiting from other states still a thing? 'Cause if it isn't, I'm betting it will start back up in earnest with so many PDs hurting for qualified individuals.

[wvincent]

It used to be the case that certain cities sent out recruiters to poach pretty heavily. I think it was Seattle (ironically) that even had a full-time recruiter permanently assigned to NYC when NYPD was still getting paid below the poverty line. I remember one of my college buddies with DC Metro PD back in 2007 told me about a few cities in other states that still had lateral transfer agreements for them, no need to go through a full police academy again.

Is this active recruiting from other states still a thing? 'Cause if it isn't, I'm betting it will start back up in earnest with so many PDs hurting for qualified individuals.

Or take the easy out if they can't get the bodies: Lower the Standards
That always ends well.

[blues]

Years ago lots of agents jumped ship from other agencies to go to my outfit. In fact, they had to make an agreement at one point about poaching from other outfits. I was very happy they recruited me...

I wish only the best for our brothers and sisters in blue facing tough decisions. I hope they can find a place worthy of them.

[willie]

I fail to see how pd agencies can be disbanded because when planners begin deciding what can and cannot be done, they will do nothing. I do predict that some tactics will halt: using traffic violations as probable cause for looking for other violations; pursuing suspects on foot; engaging in car chases; and arresting those with outstanding warrants discovered during traffic stops. I think city governments will very strongly encourage retailers to ignore shop lifters and to discourage them by presence of floor walkers and cameras. The reason is to reduce frequency of confrontation.

Traffic fines are a source of municipal income. I predict that cops will purposely cease giving tickets. If all cease, then the group can hardly be punished. Managers will see a universal lack of initiative which in the cop world is proactive policing.

Another prediction is that cops will lose their long guns, especially AR's. Now sergeants will keep these in their cars. Further, special op teams will have a structural change. Teams will lose some operator types. Social workers will replace trained operators.

My city has 17000 outstanding warrants, mostly for unpaid fines and failure to appear. The jail lacks room for even the tiniest fraction of them. A big chunk of these warrants apply to the custodial population having womb to tomb sustenance. We will see even more non compliance now that rules are relaxing. A peculiar fact is that according to city data, the vast majority of 911 calls originate in these neighborhoods which also have high crime rates.There police see a sad thing--black on black crime which includes black on black homicides.

[Wise_A]

My former home city was starting guys off at (get ready) $37,000 and change. And that's for a municipality with plenty of business. Up here, we have our share of asshats and are certainly filling up our jail, but we're just not even in the same class--starting salary this year for a deputy is $48k, and you can live a lot cheaper. I don't even know a neighborhood down there where you can park your car at night on that kind of money. To make matters worse, after a bunch of hacks got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, the city gave away all the overtime jobs to other agencies--that was money that a lot of guys were counting on to make ends meet. The mayor bragged that he "hired 400 cops during his tenure". Unfortunately, 700+ have left. I think there's barely a guy left with more than 15 years on.

People want professional conduct in a demanding field--well, then you'd better pay well and hold the job in high esteem.

PS--Don't piss and moan about pensions, either. The state pensions are in bad shape because the states stopped paying into them. New Jersey gave a bunch of money to some investment firm (p sure it was the former governor's wife or brother-in-law or some shit), who proceeded to somehow lose money, whereupon they were paid a bonus. They also decided to lump the police pension in with the Board of Ed pension, which was a trainwreck due to ridiculous payscaling and great terms for administrators. When you see some guy walking out with a pension, understand that he didn't just get handed that money, he worked as much as 30 years and paid into it the whole time, with the expectation of a certain RoI. Cutting it is just taxing public servants to pay for the state's malfeasance. There's certainly some abusers of the system--go on disability, come back for a day, retire at 15 with a full disability pension, start career #2, get another 15, collect pension #2--but these cases are extraordinarily rare.

Ditto for "zomg he retired and turned in his comp time, they had to write him a check for $90k". Yeah, because he worked his whole life, accrued time, and didn't take days off.

/endrant

[olstyn]

My former home city was starting guys off at (get ready) $37,000 and change.

Significantly under $20/hour to be a police officer? That falls under "how about no," at least from my perspective of making well over that as a mid level IT guy, you know, *not* risking my life at work.

[Nightvisionary]

Significantly under $20/hour to be a police officer? That falls under "how about no," at least from my perspective of making well over that as a mid level IT guy, you know, *not* risking my life at work.

There are a large number of jobs significantly more dangerous than law enforcement that pay $20/hr or less. Some people just don't do well in today's modern office environment, myself included. I would end up in a straight jacket in short order if I had to sit in a cubicle. If you can do it and make a good living at it I applaud you. I think I was born about 180 years too late.

[Snapshot]

Significantly under $20/hour to be a police officer? That falls under "how about no," at least from my perspective of making well over that as a mid level IT guy, you know, *not* risking my life at work.

Or so they told you, and you believed, until zombies took over your system... :eek:

[Duces Tecum]

I don't think these guys are the first, and am pretty sure they won't be the last. It will be interesting to see how this develops. In any event, God bless these young fellows.

https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06/13/florida-swat-team-members-resign-over-safety-concerns-disrespect-by-officials/ (https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06/13/florida-swat-team-members-resign-over-safety-concerns-disrespect-by-officials/)

[the Schwartz]

I don't think these guys are the first, and am pretty sure they won't be the last. It will be interesting to see how this develops. In any event, God bless these young fellows.

https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06/13/florida-swat-team-members-resign-over-safety-concerns-disrespect-by-officials/ (https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06/13/florida-swat-team-members-resign-over-safety-concerns-disrespect-by-officials/)

I stand by and agree with these officers' decision to return to general assignments. If the Vice-Mayor (and Command Officers) is gonna talk shit about dedicated officers who are there to provide support during situations that require specialized measures, she compromises their ability to operate across the board. Looks like she'll need to have her Chief find more guys to throw into the meat-grinder of public opinion. Something tells me that very few officers, if any, will step up to fill those vacancies.

[Dagga Boy]

Years ago lots of agents jumped ship from other agencies to go to my outfit. In fact, they had to make an agreement at one point about poaching from other outfits. I was very happy they recruited me...

I wish only the best for our brothers and sisters in blue facing tough decisions. I hope they can find a place worthy of them.

Yep, you just pray the professionals find a place that deserves them and the “minimal standards” will simply be promoted in the municipality”s to supervise whoever thinks that a big city cop job is a good idea.

[Wise_A]

Significantly under $20/hour to be a police officer? That falls under "how about no," at least from my perspective of making well over that as a mid level IT guy, you know, *not* risking my life at work.

You wanna drive a school bus? That pays $20/hr, you just won't get 8 hours a day unless you're crazy lucky or have been there forever.

[Checkman]

I applied with Houston, Las Vegas and Portland (OR) in 2000. I didn't get hired by them. The agency that hired me is in Idaho and started me at $11.50 an hour. I'm up to $32.00 an hour now. It's a fair wage for where we live. Got both of our kids through school and one of them through college. We have a house as well. So while I don't earn what officers in San Francisco or Denver get I do okay. An added bonus is that our area has not seen the chaos that the larger metro areas have experienced, but I am looking at five more years and then pulling the plug.

I'm a detective now and that's a good place to be. I mostly work fraud cases which means when I do make a case it consists of me sending my file to the prosecutor and requesting an arrest warrant. I was instructed several years ago that even if I get a confession I am not to do a PC arrest. It's a property crime and the county jail is overcrowded. Fraudsters don't represent the immediate physical danger to society that a rapist or murderer does. Just take the suspect's statement, let him/her go and send the case file to the prosecutor. Most of the victims of credit card fraud and bank hacks get their money reimbursed as well; so there is no reason to act like some type of street avenger. Investigating fraud is mostly low-key and after the fact, often weeks and months after the crime has occurred. Sure there is always the exception, but it's not patrol. I walk around in slacks, polo shirts and light sweaters and spend much of my day at my desk working the phone, researching on the Internet, requesting subpoenas for banks and typing reports.

If you had told me twenty years ago that I would end my career as a fraud investigator I wouldn't have believed you. Like many new officers I thought I would be some type of "operator". Well that was twenty years and much civil unrest ago. Now I just want to engage in the paper chase and make it to retirement.

[olstyn]

You wanna drive a school bus? That pays $20/hr, you just won't get 8 hours a day unless you're crazy lucky or have been there forever.

I think dealing with screaming kids for your entire shift may in fact be worse than being a police officer in terms of your mental health, if not in terms of safety. Either way, not a choice I personally have to make, for which I'm thankful.

[AKDoug]

The two biggest LEO employers in Alaska are paying $60-$70K starting wage. If you have previous LEO experience you can get a pretty huge starting wage bonus with the Alaska State Troopers.

Yes, the cost of living expenses are higher then some parts of the U.S., but if you like the outdoors it's tough to beat.

[Wise_A]

The two biggest LEO employers in Alaska are paying $60-$70K starting wage. If you have previous LEO experience you can get a pretty huge starting wage bonus with the Alaska State Troopers.

Yes, the cost of living expenses are higher then some parts of the U.S., but if you like the outdoors it's tough to beat.

I commonly refer to Alaska State Troopers on National Geographic as Cops On Ice.

[JHC]

Even the guys who stay are going to be more, shall we say, circumspect in their proactive work and investigations.

I've said it before and it seems relevant here. Nobody gets fired for not catching a criminal. Nobody goes to jail for not pursing a suspect. Catch him and he fights, it's all liability at this point.

What is your take on Greg Ellifritz's argument for a shift to "peace officer" perspectives vs "law enforcement officer"? Is this a distinction with any real difference?

Could this change the profession's retention?

[Hambo]

Could this change the profession's retention?

No. People want change, and they're about to get it.

[AKDoug]

I commonly refer to Alaska State Troopers on National Geographic as Cops On Ice. I am friends with several Troopers. All of them, including one that was on the show, wish that the show had never existed. Like all reality shows, there was a slice of truth served with a heaping pile of bullshit.

[BehindBlueI's]

What is your take on Greg Ellifritz's argument for a shift to "peace officer" perspectives vs "law enforcement officer"? Is this a distinction with any real difference?

Could this change the profession's retention?

I've posted elsewhere that while I understand LEO is a handy shorthand to encompass a wide variety of individuals with sworn arrest authority, there are very few LEOs. They tend to be federal, but not always, and their sole task is to enforce (a usually very specific subset of the) law. Commercial Motor Vehicle Enforcement might be an example, somebody who's sole purpose at work is to enforce a specific subset of laws (and, note, that's a non-sworn role in some places) and that's it.

Law Enforcement is just one role of who we typically think of as police. The police who come when you call 911 sort of police. Various traffic functions, community care taker functions, etc. aren't "enforcing laws". There's no law being enforced when you document a traffic crash for the insurance companies. There's no law being enforced when we smell decomposition and kick in a door to find granny's corpse for the family who lives out of town but haven't heard from her in a week. Before cell phones, police were roadside assistance and that role continues to a lesser extent. We're still flagmen for road hazards. We're still information booths to lost tourists. Etc. Etc.

[paherne]

I haven't read Ellifritz's article, but the police in CA have always been Peace Officers. How's that working out?

[Dagga Boy]

What is your take on Greg Ellifritz's argument for a shift to "peace officer" perspectives vs "law enforcement officer"? Is this a distinction with any real difference?

Could this change the profession's retention?

For many of us, that is what we did. That is often not up to the officers. Say for example we cut out the revenue generation for the city or county? Who do you think is driving that b.s. ? That is the same asshole politicians whining now about police enforcement. You think most cops give two shits about people selling cigarettes and crap like that? How about citrus and floral crimes? I was basically booted out of a unit because we were so successful at actually arresting almost exclusively in progress felonies in numbers never seen before that we were moved to the COPS unit that was federally funded and worked bullshit like illegal aliens selling flowers and oranges at off ramps while my team was deep in the ghetto or barrio every night getting guns and dope sellers who were making life miserable for the decent folks who lived there. The breaking point for me and what got me ousted was a worthless yellow LT. who wanted us to go to schools to read books to little kids instead of doing actual cop stuff. We had tons of officers working overtime doing nothing but writing seatbelt tickets for a federal grant while patrol was understaffed for actually answering calls for service. Reality check-most of what the politicians and the liberal press are bitching about today was wholly created by them.
Want to know why I am in favor of privatized security contractors....because the job will be one thing, keeping the community of people who can afford it safe and protected with no pressure or mission creep based on money generation or doing social work projects.

[Borderland]

I know people who have retired with 30. I'm one of them but not LE. First 20 was a walk in the park, last 10 was a bitch. That all had to do with politics and a changing administration. I retired early at 63 because in a matter of a year or two I went from an outstanding employee to marginal. Nothing changed with me, just management. I'm sure a lot of people will have to make that decision. In my case it was easy. Had I only had 10 or 15 years in the system I would have hit the street looking for another job. I had some good job offers in the private sector at about 24 years in but the prize was there and I claimed it.

I truly hope that anyone within a few years of a pension can weather the storm. You paid for it and it should be yours. Figure out what you have to do to get there and do it.

[Sawyer]

The real impacts of all this won’t be fully understood for years. It’s going to be rough and I would strongly suggest anyone who can get out do so and anyone considering the profession to end that consideration now. For those who are in it without a realistic exit strategy, my prayers and hopefully we get through by encouraging each other and helping out where we can.

[DDTSGM]

One of you guys with larger agencies might be able to answer these questions:

What percentage of officers are 'career officers' serving until they can draw retirement or beyond?

What are the average years that an officer serves before moving on to other things?

[BehindBlueI's]

One of you guys with larger agencies might be able to answer these questions:

What percentage of officers are 'career officers' serving until they can draw retirement or beyond?

What are the average years that an officer serves before moving on to other things?

Historically, unless they screw up, few leave prior to getting a pension. Especially if they make it past the 5 year mark. I had roughly 55 in my class graduate FTO. Probably 2/3 of us are still with the department and we're coming up on the start of our 15th year. One is medically retired, one left for a commission in the Army (was already a reservist warrant officer when he came on), two left to return to their hometowns and smaller departments, one has been fired for a domestic violence incident, and I'm probably missing some.

A lot depends on how old they were when they were hired, but my *guess* is somewhere in the 25-30 year range, but there are some who hang on way past that.

[DDTSGM]

Historically, unless they screw up, few leave prior to getting a pension. Especially if they make it past the 5 year mark. I had roughly 55 in my class graduate FTO. Probably 2/3 of us are still with the department and we're coming up on the start of our 15th year. One is medically retired, one left for a commission in the Army (was already a reservist warrant officer when he came on), two left to return to their hometowns and smaller departments, one has been fired for a domestic violence incident, and I'm probably missing some.

A lot depends on how old they were when they were hired, but my *guess* is somewhere in the 25-30 year range, but there are some who hang on way past that.

So your guess would be 2/3 or slightly less. Interesting, I didn't have a large metro department frame of reference, now I have an idea. Thanks.

I've known a few guys to suck it up until they are vested under our state system (5 or 15 years depending on plan) and then say adios to do something else, figuring on collecting at age 60 or 65.

[Baldanders]

Why is this even a question?

Because our worthless shitbag leaders blow our true ruling class every day, and maximize rent-seeking, soul--destroying, community-oblitering evil every second of every day they can because it earns them a bit more in their bank accounts.

(Speaking as the son of someone who's father reached the status of Fortune 500 CEO briefly, Fortune 500 CEO status means you've ALMOST reached "true leader" status. You must show more willingness to do anything before you get to join the club.)

Because propaganda is our "news."

Because the elite want anything but change.

Because we live in a plutomony.

Because if you are a cop, the best you can do is hold back the Tsunami of liquid shit falling on America, briefly, until it destroys your soul. Because the Tsunami of liquid shit is highly profitable for the "right" people, and real solutions aren't.

If my profanity offends anyone, my sincere apologies.

But how can I express the profane without profanity?

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04302010/transcript5.html

https://fabiusmaximus.com/2020/06/15/a-new-beginning-for-america

[feudist]

No. People want change, and they're about to get it.

Good and hard.

[lwt16]

Our Tier 2 guys and gals are finding other jobs that don't require that you put up with this stuff for 30 years before you can retire.....and even then you have to be 57 to draw your pension. We see a lot of them leave after a few years when they get their belly full of the stress and lack of support.

Us older Tier 1 guys/gals are now looking at every option to leave early or cash in sick time built up. There is a general feeling of "it's just not worth it any longer"......especially since we have a good cop facing a Murder trial for basically doing what he was trained to do.

Personally, I have about two years to go and had always planned to stick around an extra 5 if my health didn't nosedive. Forget that now. I'll leave the minute I am eligible and not one solitary second longer if all stays like it is going.

I fall down and thank the Lord above that my only child has absolutely no desire to do this for a living.

My zone is heavy minority and there are some absolutely great people who live there. A part of me will feel like I am leaving them to the wolves when I go but I'm getting too old to do this job anyway.

And for all those that want us gone, here's a list of the calls just in my zone from last week:

Two gang shootouts........one of which they lit up several apartments and houses on the street....and hit a 16 year old kid playing Xbox in the arm
huge crashes
One guy was walking down the road with human femurs in his backpack. They had to fight him and medicate him. Ended up finding the rest of the body later
Guy wanted for attempted murder who pooped all over himself and the arresting officers
Had to trespass a Covid 19 patient from her boyfriend's apartment.

That's just a sampling of one week in my tiny zone. Those problems aren't going to magically go away. If anything, they will get worse with the current climate of cop hating to the nth degree.

And so far, I haven't seen anyone step up to the plate and say "Send me..."

I doubt anyone will.

Regards.

[Ivantheterrible]

I represent a different group of people in this line of work. I am retired from a career of office/travel corporate work and deciding to do something that benefits my community. Being employed by the local SO as Court Security/Baliff/Special Deputy. No, I'm not POPS certified but I'm healthy, in very good physical shape, and have wisdom of years (:D). The pay really doesn't matter and I see myself as support to the road deputies. I don't try to be one of them but I do play a role in doing things like health checks on elderly, assisting the SROs in school kid projects and security, and administrative functions. Can do ride-alongs and help diffuse situations because of knowing so many people. Also prefer to provide assistance in juvenile cases since I can work with the defendants, and victims, from the enforcement through the legal processes.

Yes, the profession is changing and I hear it from the many deputies, and state police troopers, I encounter. It appears that the attraction to career-minded people may be, sadly, leaving, but there are still opportunities for people like me to find their niche.