Should You Talk to the Police After a Self-Defense Incident? (Part I)

[blues]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RCnvWNMMzw&feature=em-uploademail

[BehindBlueI's]

I didn't watch the video, but I am in completely agreement with Mas 's take on it. Interestingly, we arrived at the same conclusion independently, although of course I'm sure he'd figured it out long before I was in a position to.

In a nutshell, you probably want to give a limited statement that establishes you were the victim, where evidence that might disappear or be overlooked is, and who witnesses are before they move on, and if any additional suspects are still out (say you shot one and another escaped and stole a car to flee the scene). Once you've established that, shut up.

[Zincwarrior]

I didn't watch the video, but I am in completely agreement with Mas 's take on it. Interestingly, we arrived at the same conclusion independently, although of course I'm sure he'd figured it out long before I was in a position to.

In a nutshell, you probably want to give a limited statement that establishes you were the victim, where evidence that might disappear or be overlooked is, and who witnesses are before they move on, and if any additional suspects are still out (say you shot one and another escaped and stole a car to flee the scene). Once you've established that, shut up.

What is a good way to shut up at that point? This is not a criticism, but a request on the best way to do that?

[Totem Polar]

I give Branca points for his spread collar and french cuffs, and the other guy for a more quality finish to his jacket.

[blues]

What is a good way to shut up at that point? This is not a criticism, but a request on the best way to do that?

You can let the officer know that you are shaken up by the incident and your head is not completely clear. That you fully intend to cooperate as best you can after you've had some time to compose yourself and speak with an attorney.

There is no stigma in so doing and it is your right to speak to an attorney before making further, or any statements, for that matter.

[Zincwarrior]

You can let the officer know that you are shaken up by the incident and your head is not completely clear. That you fully intend to cooperate as best you can after you've had some time to compose yourself and speak with an attorney.

There is no stigma in so doing and it is your right to speak to an attorney before making further, or any statements, for that matter.

Thank you. I will tell the wife and daughter.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

What is a good way to shut up at that point? This is not a criticism, but a request on the best way to do that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwM5KpoPPrg

[wvincent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwM5KpoPPrg

Yeah, let's make false statements to the cops' and tie up EMS on a fake cardiac/stroke episode. I mean, you're the only person in the whole universe, so who else could possibly need EMS for a real cardiac event?
Pretty fucking stupid response.

[blues]

Yeah, let's make false statements to the cops' and tie up EMS on a fake cardiac/stroke episode. I mean, you're the only person in the whole universe, so who else could possibly need EMS for a real cardiac event?
Pretty fucking stupid response.

In their defense, I thought it was pretty funny and meant as such...

...And on topic, oftentimes the "experts" will tell you to be checked out by EMT's or at an ER if there is the slightest injury, wound or issue such as shortness of breath, etc. so that it is documented in the police report. Even more important if images can be taken of any wounds or injuries to bolster your side.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

Yeah, let's make false statements to the cops' and tie up EMS on a fake cardiac/stroke episode. I mean, you're the only person in the whole universe, so who else could possibly need EMS for a real cardiac event?
Pretty fucking stupid response.Take a breather, pal, everything's okay -- no one's actually suggesting this is the thing to do; it was a lighthearted aside in a thread that already has some very good advice. ;)

[lwt16]

Yeah, let's make false statements to the cops' and tie up EMS on a fake cardiac/stroke episode. I mean, you're the only person in the whole universe, so who else could possibly need EMS for a real cardiac event?
Pretty fucking stupid response.

I as well as others involved in critical incidents were routinely offered a quick med check to make sure everything was okay.

It could be declined but if the officer requested it, could not be refused.

After having been put in an interview room and preparing to answer questions to major crimes/homicide investigators I could see how someone might vapor lock.

[ssb]

What is a good way to shut up at that point? This is not a criticism, but a request on the best way to do that?

Invoking your right to counsel is an off-switch to the conversation, or you can verbally invoke your right to remain silent. I think the first one is slightly more... responsible-seeming?... than the second, having been in the next room during a few interviews where self defense was claimed.

Without giving legal advice, my basic thought is to act like a victim (because you are) without trying to play lawyer for yourself and without vomiting every last little thing out. I think Ayoob is mostly correct on his advice.

Edit: my experience here has been, the shooter is going to be handcuffed in the back of a police car, they're gonna sit there for a while while the detectives do their thing with the scene, they'll eventually be transported to the station for an interview, and the detectives will then attempt to question after having had the benefit of speaking with others involved. While patrol is going to have body/dash cameras running, in my experience apart from a very basic "what happened," they are not going to be doing any detailed questioning. Your jurisdiction may vary.

[lwt16]

Body and dash cams are running full blast at those scenes.

I wouldn't say a thing other than the raw basics.

[wvincent]

The gist of falsely claiming it's "the big one" is vastly different than accepting the med check that will most likely be offered on scene.
I've seen the advice of falsely claiming to be having a heart attack, even to the extent of purposely losing control of bladder/bowels in order to give yourself an exit from the initial interview spouted far and wide on the vast network of knowledge, ie, the internet.

Yes, give the cops a reason to turn your world upside down when you get hemmed up in a lie. Remember, your attorney works by billable hours, so help put his kids through Yale by giving him plenty of work trying to undo the damage a false statement is going to cause.

And yes, tie up EMS on a bullshit complaint, cause there's so many of them just sitting around with nothing to do.

This may be in GD, but it's still stupid advice. And it's searchable. With you attached to it.

[ssb]

The gist of falsely claiming it's "the big one" is vastly different than accepting the med check that will most likely be offered on scene.
I've seen the advice of falsely claiming to be having a heart attack, even to the extent of purposely losing control of bladder/bowels in order to give yourself an exit from the initial interview spouted far and wide on the vast network of knowledge, ie, the internet.

Yes, give the cops a reason to turn your world upside down when you get hemmed up in a lie. Remember, your attorney works by billable hours, so help put his kids through Yale by giving him plenty of work trying to undo the damage a false statement is going to cause.

And yes, tie up EMS on a bullshit complaint, cause there's so many of them just sitting around with nothing to do.

This may be in GD, but it's still stupid advice. And it's searchable. With you attached to it.

Not just cops... That lie you told on scene? Guess what I can use to impeach your testimony with later (and in a self-defense case, you almost always have to testify as a practical matter).

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

The gist of falsely claiming it's "the big one" is vastly different than accepting the med check that will most likely be offered on scene.
I've seen the advice of falsely claiming to be having a heart attack, even to the extent of purposely losing control of bladder/bowels in order to give yourself an exit from the initial interview spouted far and wide on the vast network of knowledge, ie, the internet.

Yes, give the cops a reason to turn your world upside down when you get hemmed up in a lie. Remember, your attorney works by billable hours, so help put his kids through Yale by giving him plenty of work trying to undo the damage a false statement is going to cause.

And yes, tie up EMS on a bullshit complaint, cause there's so many of them just sitting around with nothing to do.

This may be in GD, but it's still stupid advice. And it's searchable. With you attached to it.Sigh...

You may have missed this:


Take a breather, pal, everything's okay -- no one's actually suggesting this is the thing to do; it was a lighthearted aside in a thread that already has some very good advice. ;)

You may also haven't considered you're not the only one who's aware of the same bad internet advice and had been satirizing it with a classic Fred Sanford clip... :rolleyes:

Back on subject...

Anyone wanting to watch a prime -- if long -- example of how not to handle the post-shoot interview, here's Florida man Michael Drejka's (parking lot shooter) three-parter with detectives:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkluhDJfZ3A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU8OC2NLnW4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_5km3E_Gn0

[Caballoflaco]

I know it’s an older show, but I’ve been watching The First 48 reruns on tv lately. The most interesting part of the show to me is the interaction of detectives with murder suspects during interrogations. The cops who are good are really good, and it’s amazing how long people will sit and talk to cops without a lawyer, often to the point of admitting to a murder without ever asking for council.

I think it’s worth a watch for lay folks like myself to get a glimpse of what’s going on and what happens in those situations.

[BehindBlueI's]

I know it’s an older show, but I’ve been watching The First 48 reruns on tv lately. The most interesting part of the show to me is the interaction of detectives with murder suspects during interrogations. The cops who are good are really good, and it’s amazing how long people will sit and talk to cops without a lawyer, often to the point of admitting to a murder without ever asking for council.

I think it’s worth a watch for lay folks like myself to get a glimpse of what’s going on and what happens in those situations.

Even shit bags want to justify their actions and often feel they have a really good reason for doing what they did. You can often hook them with that. Sgt H used to tease me I was the only guy he knew who got confessions by threatening to not interview people. I presented it as going them a favor to let them talk to me. If you don't want to give your side of the story, I don't mind. You can just let everybody else talk for you. Think about the personality type that's willing to kill over what's often petty shit and deprive them of the agency of speaking for themselves? It often works. If not, I could always go back in and give them "a second chance".

The guys who impress me the most often had a sex crimes background. Usually some of the best interviewers in the game.

[Coyotesfan97]

Even shit bags want to justify their actions and often feel they have a really good reason for doing what they did. You can often hook them with that. Sgt H used to tease me I was the only guy he knew who got confessions by threatening to not interview people. I presented it as going them a favor to let them talk to me. If you don't want to give your side of the story, I don't mind. You can just let everybody else talk for you. Think about the personality type that's willing to kill over what's often petty shit and deprive them of the agency of speaking for themselves? It often works. If not, I could always go back in and give them "a second chance".

The guys who impress me the most often had a sex crimes background. Usually some of the best interviewers in the game.

Sex Crimes is one of the places I’ve NEVER had any interest in working but the people who do are usually outstanding Detectives and interviewers.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Yeah, let's make false statements to the cops' and tie up EMS on a fake cardiac/stroke episode. I mean, you're the only person in the whole universe, so who else could possibly need EMS for a real cardiac event?
Pretty fucking stupid response.

People fake medical issues when detained by the police?

I really need to get better at putting in sarcasm tags ;)

What someone recommended back on page 1 is basically a public safety statement that a cop would give - at least locally.

[BehindBlueI's]

People fake medical issues when detained by the police?


Other than the run-of-the-mill incarceritis, I did have one guy legitimately fake a heart attack to get out of an interview. He wouldn't lawyer up because, in his own words, it would make him look guilty. He was crying and he knew he was on the verge of a full confession as he'd already made several partial confessions. He faked a heart attack to get out of the interview without having to lawyer up or invoke his right to remain silent.

Then ended up pleading anyway. A jury would have slaughtered him, IMO, as he was targeting the elderly.

[blues]

https://youtu.be/eyVTz1F1sZQ

[blues]

https://youtu.be/SNKw-Hyz1UQ

[blues]

https://youtu.be/OLksnLUA8Do

[blues]

https://youtu.be/uvwXDKMvNs0

[NH Shooter]

Just finished reading Branca's book The Law of Self Defense - Third Edition. I learned plenty doing so.

[blues]

Just finished reading Branca's book The Law of Self Defense - Third Edition. I learned plenty doing so.

There's gonna be a quiz tomorrow morning. (No math.)

[Tackleberry40sw]

There's gonna be a quiz tomorrow morning. (No math.)

Essay or multiple guess?

[Totem Polar]

There's gonna be a quiz tomorrow morning. (No math.)

Hopefully not at 05:30. Nobody is polite at 05:30.

[blues]

Essay or multiple guess?


Hopefully not at 05:30. Nobody is polite at 05:30.

Multiple guess of course. And I wouldn't recommend copying your neighbor's answers.

And yet they are called "politi"...go figure.

[NH Shooter]

In a nutshell, you probably want to give a limited statement that establishes you were the victim, where evidence that might disappear or be overlooked is, and who witnesses are before they move on, and if any additional suspects are still out (say you shot one and another escaped and stole a car to flee the scene). Once you've established that, shut up.

This is exactly what the legal SMEs tell us to do. BTW, I highly recommend Branca's book.

[blues]

This is exactly what the legal SMEs tell us to do. BTW, I highly recommend Branca's book.

As do I. I convinced one of our friends on the forum to purchase a copy for his and his family's use.

[John Murphy]

I just finished Mas' Lethal Force Instructor class last week. Regarding the statement to police he opined that it best not present as "rehearsed" and rote. I can see the utility of that since you don't want to appear like you're going down a post-crime checklist.

I know some people have legal services and carry a card with a prepared statement on the back...just had the card to the officers and STFU. I am not confident that is the best solution either.

[TGS]

I know some people have legal services and carry a card with a prepared statement on the back...just had the card to the officers and STFU. I am not confident that is the best solution either.

The idea that you'll be free to just retrieve something from your pocket nonchalantly and address the officers on your terms while handing them a card.....after shooting someone and having a gun on you.....is also mildly amusing to me.

[Caballoflaco]

I didn't watch the video, but I am in completely agreement with Mas 's take on it. Interestingly, we arrived at the same conclusion independently, although of course I'm sure he'd figured it out long before I was in a position to.

In a nutshell, you probably want to give a limited statement that establishes you were the victim, where evidence that might disappear or be overlooked is, and who witnesses are before they move on, and if any additional suspects are still out (say you shot one and another escaped and stole a car to flee the scene). Once you've established that, shut up.

During my not shooting incident last year I had 3 different cops ask me what happened on scene so they could make sure I was telling the same story. I cooperated then because the situation was a lot less serious than if I had had to shoot the guy.

Any suggestions on how to politely decline to give more than one statement after you’ve given the initial statement?

[blues]

During my not shooting incident last year I had 3 different cops ask me what happened on scene so they could make sure I was telling the same story. I cooperated then because the situation was a lot less serious than if I had had to shoot the guy.

Any suggestions on how to politely decline to give more than one statement after you’ve given the initial statement?

It's your right to stop the questioning at any time.

That said, if you've already given a statement, you would not be out of line telling another officer that you are still shaken from the incident and you want to compose yourself before making additional statements in case you accidentally leave out or add information you hadn't stated the first time through.

It is normal for humans to remember more after a period of time following a stressful incident.

If they want to force the issue, then I would opt to speak to counsel beforehand.

[LtDave]

You can let the officer know that you are shaken up by the incident and your head is not completely clear. That you fully intend to cooperate as best you can after you've had some time to compose yourself and speak with an attorney.

There is no stigma in so doing and it is your right to speak to an attorney before making further, or any statements, for that matter.

I don't know if I would tell someone my head is not completely clear. Seems a good attorney could make you eat those words...

[blues]

I don't know if I would tell someone my head is not completely clear. Seems a good attorney could make you eat those words...

I think you understood the gist of what was intended when I mentioned a bit "shaken" from my reply just a short while ago. I didn't mean for my reply to be used verbatim.

I'd have chosen my words more carefully if I were testifying, counselor. :rolleyes:


ETA: I know that my head hasn't been "completely clear" in the aftermath of a particularly stressful event...the injury or death of someone close...the aftermath of an intense physical altercation...whether on the street or in the dojo. Tell me how clear you're supposed to be thinking right after getting rocked? Anyway, I hope the point is made. It wasn't meant to be copied on to a card and recited.

[NH Shooter]

I agree it should not be a rehearsed, robotic response as it would come across as less-than-sincere. But from what I understand what should be firmly planted in one's mind is the information they should provide: that you were attacked, you had to defend yourself and identify any witnesses or evidence.

Then STFU.

[TGS]

I think you understood the gist of what was intended when I mentioned a bit "shaken" from my reply just a short while ago. I didn't mean for my reply to be used verbatim.

I'd have chosen my words more carefully if I were testifying, counselor. :rolleyes:


ETA: I know that my head hasn't been "completely clear" in the aftermath of a particularly stressful event...the injury or death of someone close...the aftermath of an intense physical altercation...whether on the street or in the dojo. Tell me how clear you're supposed to be thinking right after getting rocked? Anyway, I hope the point is made. It wasn't meant to be copied on to a card and recited.

To that end, our internal affairs unit won't actually let us give statements immediately following a UOF beyond the public safety based questions/UOF form.

[Casual Friday]

In a nutshell, you probably want to give a limited statement that establishes you were the victim, where evidence that might disappear or be overlooked is, and who witnesses are before they move on, and if any additional suspects are still out (say you shot one and another escaped and stole a car to flee the scene). Once you've established that, shut up.


You can let the officer know that you are shaken up by the incident and your head is not completely clear. That you fully intend to cooperate as best you can after you've had some time to compose yourself and speak with an attorney.

There is no stigma in so doing and it is your right to speak to an attorney before making further, or any statements, for that matter.


It's your right to stop the questioning at any time.

That said, if you've already given a statement, you would not be out of line telling another officer that you are still shaken from the incident and you want to compose yourself before making additional statements in case you accidentally leave out or add information you hadn't stated the first time through.

It is normal for humans to remember more after a period of time following a stressful incident.

If they want to force the issue, then I would opt to speak to counsel beforehand.

Do you feel that's also the best approach when guns get involved but no shots fired?

[blues]

Do you feel that's also the best approach when guns get involved but no shots fired?

Since there's a chance of being charged with brandishing and / or other violations at the state / local level, I'd advise reporting the matter to the police before any other party has the opportunity to do so, providing basic ID and information, (as to your being the "victim", any witnesses, any evidence, video, audio, etc) and then rely upon advice of counsel before any statements since you have more than a zero chance of being charged.

I'll leave it to BBI and other state and local LE to fill in the gaps as it's something they would have much more expertise with.

[BehindBlueI's]

Do you feel that's also the best approach when guns get involved but no shots fired?

Yes, in addition to the more detailed reporting of whatever crime you were a victim of that lead to the escalation. Serial numbers for items stolen, etc.


During my not shooting incident last year I had 3 different cops ask me what happened on scene so they could make sure I was telling the same story. I cooperated then because the situation was a lot less serious than if I had had to shoot the guy.

Any suggestions on how to politely decline to give more than one statement after you’ve given the initial statement?

I wouldn't assume that was the reason. Especially on a confusing scene, sometimes there's just overlap because an officer doesn't know it's been asked by someone else. If it's serious you're likely to have at least a uniformed officer ask for basic "what happened" and then a detective ask more detailed questions. You might get a supervisor asking you questions if an officer was involved in any way, such as a use of force.

That *could* be the reason, it's just not how we would do things. You could probably just say "I gave a statement to that officer over there" or something along those lines and see what the response is, then use your best judgement from there.