Chicago mayor pleading with WalMart not to leave

[LittleLebowski]

Chickens coming home to roost.

https://wbbm780.radio.com/articles/mayor-lightfoot-pleads-with-walmart-to-not-abandon-chicago


Mayor Lightfoot said she’s hopeful major retailers will reopen the Chicago stores that were looted or otherwise damaged during protests surrounding George Floyd’s killing by police in Minnesota. But, she’s unsure of one of the biggest.

Mayor Lightfoot said she was on a conference call with Walmart and other major retailers that had stores looted or heavily damaged during the unrest in Chicago. She said she pleaded with them to not abandon Chicago.

https://blockclubchicago.org/2020/06/02/devastated-south-siders-clean-up-after-losing-grocery-stores-other-local-businesses-to-looting-i-dont-want-people-to-think-chicago-is-like-this/


A destroyed Walmart Neighborhood Market near 47th Street and Cottage Grove Avenue devastated one neighbor, who remembers the fight to get the grocer in the neighborhood.

[RJ]

Yep.

I think I mentioned this a few days ago in the "Cultural Shifts" thread:

Corporate business will give lip service to the optics of ‘end systemic racism Now!’, but follow the money, and slow roll rebuilding looted stores and inventory until they can rewicker their security protocols to deal will 300 ‘protestors’ rolling up on stores with skateboards and wheelbarrows."

--me

Thing is, corporate HQ will be all "BLACK LIVES MATTER!" when it suits them to align with their perceived target demographic (see Nike, et al) but when it comes to the millions of dollars it will take to raze the remains, clear the debris, put up the shell, and re-stock the store, they're all like woah, let's not be hasty. I suspect it may even be more cost-effective to look for new sites that can be developed from scratch and just bulldoze existing ones to the city dump. Obviously I'm not into big box store development so could be talking out of my butt.

The rebuilding of stores (if it happens at all) is going to have to deal with the new paradigm of flash looting mobs that can descend in 10 minutes by car depositing 500-1,000 looters at a time to pick you clean. Then of course some asshole drops a can of gasoline and whoosh. Total loss of contents AND structure. So: do we have Private Armed Security? Major enhancements to vehicular barrier infrastructure, like concrete planters? One-way entry personnel meat grinders like you see on classified installations? For sure, I would not open a store in these areas without allocating a considerable amount of my budget for steel security shutters and significantly reinforced barriers to entry for when the store is "closed".

Not to mention, but can you imagine trying to get insurance on a business in that area these days? I suspect that a lot of people are learning more about Force Majeure clauses than they ever wanted to know.

[RoyGBiv]

Thing is, corporate HQ will be all "BLACK LIVES MATTER!" when it suits them to align with their perceived target demographic (see Nike, et al) but when it comes to the millions of dollars it will take to raze the remains, clear the debris, put up the shell, and re-stock the store, they're all like woah, let's not be hasty. I suspect it may even be more cost-effective to look for new sites that can be developed from scratch and just bulldoze existing ones to the city dump. Obviously I'm not into big box store development so could be talking out of my butt.

While I see your sentiment, reality is way more complex.
Southside Walmart? It's a numbers question. How much did it cost? What is the City wiling to do to offset the loss? Political winds favorable? Decide.
Plenty of high end location looting too. Agreed that the security paradigms will likely change, I expect these places to get rebuilt.

Looters here managed to get through Tiffany security. Trashed the Tesla vehicles on display. Apple had apparently emptied their store before the looting, LOL.
https://www.azfamily.com/news/millions-in-damage-at-scottsdale-fashion-square-mall-after-saturday-night-protests-turn-violent/article_8e08be4e-a368-11ea-9817-d78f642e13a9.html

[5pins]

I'm sure if the mayor tells them that they are getting rid of the police that will seal the deal to bring them back. :rolleyes:

[RevolverRob]

1)

I don't blame Mayor Lightfoot for begging in this regard.

That particular Wal-Mart is ~10-12 blocks from me and is the ONLY grocery store in that area. It serves a fairly large area of low-to-moderate income people who are in fairly desperate need of a grocery store. That store also anchors a corner where businesses have reflourished in the area. This area was a wasteland 10-years ago and since building the Wal-Mart it has continually improved. You guys know, or should know by now, I am not Wal-Mart's biggest fan. However, this particular store is really one that is helping the area a lot.

___

2)

Our mayor has not called for defunding the police and has not suggested that she would support any kind of reduced funding for Chicago PD. To suggest otherwise is to imply Chicago supports such a thing. I'm sure there are elements within city leadership that do support this, but they are not the Mayor, nor the broader city.

___

3)

Five million people live in the Chicagoland area. In the areas hardest hit by looters and rioters - several hundred thousand people are trying to make a living. These are innocent people, working hard to improve themselves and their communities. Perhaps give them a thought as you bask in your schadenfreude.

___

Look folks, I get it. I myself am guilty of it. 'Democrat/Liberal wastelands deserve to die, because they keep asking for it.' - Just remember that we're talking about the lives of millions of innocent people here, who are trying to live their lives without malice. I'm not saying it's all good - looters hit that Wal-Mart and clearly are responsible for that destruction. But the results of a few - regardless of if you feel that it is emblematic of systematic failure - may dramatically impact and harm many innocents. Let's try to remember that, shall we?

[the Schwartz]

While I agree with you whole-heartedly upon the basis of compassion for all people, the one over-arching lesson that I learned early in my career as a street cop must always remain borne in our minds: ''I/You/We cannot save people from themselves.''

[1slow]

1)

I don't blame Mayor Lightfoot for begging in this regard.

That particular Wal-Mart is ~10-12 blocks from me and is the ONLY grocery store in that area. It serves a fairly large area of low-to-moderate income people who are in fairly desperate need of a grocery store. That store also anchors a corner where businesses have reflourished in the area. This area was a wasteland 10-years ago and since building the Wal-Mart it has continually improved. You guys know, or should know by now, I am not Wal-Mart's biggest fan. However, this particular store is really one that is helping the area a lot.

___

2)

Our mayor has not called for defunding the police and has not suggested that she would support any kind of reduced funding for Chicago PD. To suggest otherwise is to imply Chicago supports such a thing. I'm sure there are elements within city leadership that do support this, but they are not the Mayor, nor the broader city.

___

3)

Five million people live in the Chicagoland area. In the areas hardest hit by looters and rioters - several hundred thousand people are trying to make a living. These are innocent people, working hard to improve themselves and their communities. Perhaps give them a thought as you bask in your schadenfreude.

___

Look folks, I get it. I myself am guilty of it. 'Democrat/Liberal wastelands deserve to die, because they keep asking for it.' - Just remember that we're talking about the lives of millions of innocent people here, who are trying to live their lives without malice. I'm not saying it's all good - looters hit that Wal-Mart and clearly are responsible for that destruction. But the results of a few - regardless of if you feel that it is emblematic of systematic failure - may dramatically impact and harm many innocents. Let's try to remember that, shall we?

==============

No argument with your points but......

Are the people who voted the Democrat/Liberal wastelands into political power going to change anything substantial to prevent a repeat if stores rebuild.
If not why rebuild ?

If you were spending tour money would you rebuild ? Lots of innocent people get caught in the gears of the results of socialist politics.

I do not know how best to make the people responsible for the destruction carry the cost. This group includes looters and the people who facilitate and encourage them.

[Suvorov]

If the Wal Mart is as essential like Rob suggests (and I believe him), then I would expect the City to offer lots of incentives for them to reopen. That however may prove impossible for the local government who see companies like Wal Mart as the devil and a chance to tax them to oblivion.

I’m looking forward to the post SFPD mass tech exodus of San Francisco.

[the Schwartz]

....and the people who facilitate and encourage them.

This gets exactly to the point that I was going for in my prior post, 1slow. Well said!

What we do at the ballot box has consequences. This makes the entire community culpable for the conditions that precipitated these outcomes. If I sound harsh and even a little "unfeeling" about this, rest assured that I am not; I detest seeing anyone suffer even if it is as a result of their own decisions.

[RevolverRob]

==============

No argument with your points but......

Are the people who voted the Democrat/Liberal wastelands into political power going to change anything substantial to prevent a repeat if stores rebuild.
If not why rebuild ?

If you were spending tour money would you rebuild ? Lots of innocent people get caught in the gears of the results of socialist politics.

I do not know how best to make the people responsible for the destruction carry the cost. This group includes looters and the people who facilitate and encourage them.

Two things

First, the people who voted these wastelands into existence are dead, this is merely an inherited control that is very slow to change.

Second, people are trying to change it - but again deep seeded control is out there.

I noted elsewhere, that Lightfoot has done more to combat corruption within the city council and among city officials than any of the last half-dozen Chicago mayors combined. I'm not saying she is perfect, or that the city is perfect, but she has done more after being in office ~1 year than Rahm Emmanuel did during his entire tenure. Bearing in mind that nearly 6-months of Lightfoot's tenure has been under a combination of quarantine and now riots.
__

I am not suggesting that actions should not have consequences, they should. However, the needs of many outweigh the punishment of a few - in this case I suspect as Suvorov suggested that what will happen is substantial incentives will be given to Wal-Mart to rebuild. Substantial incentives were given for them to build in the first place.

Real Talk for a Minute:

So we've blamed the looters and punished the neighborhoods -

When do we actually point out that business owners have a responsibility to protect their businesses as well?

All around the city, buildings are boarded up and/or proprietors are standing watch (not just the police, but actual proprietors). As a group of people who frequently carry firearms, because we recognize it is incumbent upon us to protect ourselves and that is not the responsibility of the state, when we do we hold accountable not only the looters but the lootees? Are we going to suggest that Wal-Mart lacks the financial resources to adequately protect their stores?

I recognize this is a bit of a rhetorical device, large companies like Wal-Mart generally enter the community with some degree of expectation that the local government will maintain law and order. And we all agree that at least one responsibility of the state is to help prevent looting and riots. Simultaneously, when help is minutes (hours) away - What do we do? I believe that Wal-Mart, the city of Chicago, and those who looted the Wal-Mart are all responsible for the act - by either failure to act or through their actions alone.

Also the assumption that those who looted the Wal-Mart came from the neighborhood within may not be a good one. A lot of people were coming from other neighborhoods to loot places - knowing full well that being caught looting their own local stores would result in harsh repercussions in their communities.

[beenalongtime]

Wonder if this is set up like the local Sam's clubs (not sure if Walmarts are). The actual locations are owned by another group (who takes the tax increment finance money to build them), and leases the space. Both companies are connected, just legally separate, so this could be "Walmart is willing to come in, but the buildings owners, are not willing/able to rebuild at this time".
While the ownership group, looks for the Tiff money elsewhere. (and that has been only a couple miles away, in an adjoining city)

[1slow]

In Democrat/Liberal wastelands it can ruin your life to protect your property.

It has real legal, financial, emotional costs as well as danger. You will not get any help from the politicians but much trouble.

[HCountyGuy]

Two things

First, the people who voted these wastelands into existence are dead, this is merely an inherited control that is very slow to change.

Second, people are trying to change it - but again deep seeded control is out there.

I noted elsewhere, that Lightfoot has done more to combat corruption within the city council and among city officials than any of the last half-dozen Chicago mayors combined. I'm not saying she is perfect, or that the city is perfect, but she has done more after being in office ~1 year than Rahm Emmanuel did during his entire tenure. Bearing in mind that nearly 6-months of Lightfoot's tenure has been under a combination of quarantine and now riots.
__

I am not suggesting that actions should not have consequences, they should. However, the needs of many outweigh the punishment of a few - in this case I suspect as Suvorov suggested that what will happen is substantial incentives will be given to Wal-Mart to rebuild. Substantial incentives were given for them to build in the first place.

Real Talk for a Minute:

So we've blamed the looters and punished the neighborhoods -

When do we actually point out that business owners have a responsibility to protect their businesses as well?

All around the city, buildings are boarded up and/or proprietors are standing watch (not just the police, but actual proprietors). As a group of people who frequently carry firearms, because we recognize it is incumbent upon us to protect ourselves and that is not the responsibility of the state, when we do we hold accountable not only the looters but the lootees? Are we going to suggest that Wal-Mart lacks the financial resources to adequately protect their stores?

I recognize this is a bit of a rhetorical device, large companies like Wal-Mart generally enter the community with some degree of expectation that the local government will maintain law and order. And we all agree that at least one responsibility of the state is to help prevent looting and riots. Simultaneously, when help is minutes (hours) away - What do we do? I believe that Wal-Mart, the city of Chicago, and those who looted the Wal-Mart are all responsible for the act - by either failure to act or through their actions alone.

Also the assumption that those who looted the Wal-Mart came from the neighborhood within may not be a good one. A lot of people were coming from other neighborhoods to loot places - knowing full well that being caught looting their own local stores would result in harsh repercussions in their communities.

Okay first off the people voting for these Progressive Utopian wastelands in to their current state are very much still alive. Not only that, they’re reproducing (generally at a higher rate) and continuing to perpetuate the bad decisions that have lead to their woes. So for the most part screw them and that. Do I feel bad for the ones who have actually tried to change things away from that path? Absolutely.

Next, victim-blaming of those affected by destructive rioters. Are you actually serious? Yeah people/businesses have a responsibility to protect their own shit but I doubt many of them anticipated things would get this out of hand. And think of some of the draconian gun laws in place in some of these areas where even a justified shooting comes with silver bracelets. Hard to defend your business when you’re in jail for shooting the first group of jack wagons trying to burn it.

[Wondering Beard]

‘What Are We Going To Have Left In Our Community?’ Aldermen React with Panic, Sorrow to Unrest (https://news.wttw.com/2020/06/05/what-are-we-going-have-left-our-community-aldermen-react-panic-sorrow-unrest)


"WTTW News obtained a recording of an online conference call held by the mayor’s office to brief all 50 aldermen on the city’s response to the unrest touched off by the death of George Floyd in the custody of Minneapolis police."

[RevolverRob]

Okay first off the people voting for these Progressive Utopian wastelands in to their current state are very much still alive. Not only that, they’re reproducing (generally at a higher rate) and continuing to perpetuate the bad decisions that have lead to their woes. So for the most part screw them and that. Do I feel bad for the ones who have actually tried to change things away from that path? Absolutely.

Next, victim-blaming of those affected by destructive rioters. Are you actually serious? Yeah people/businesses have a responsibility to protect their own shit but I doubt many of them anticipated things would get this out of hand. And think of some of the draconian gun laws in place in some of these areas where even a justified shooting comes with silver bracelets. Hard to defend your business when you’re in jail for shooting the first group of jack wagons trying to burn it.

So you're well versed in the history of Chicago Machine Politics? I mean actually - not just what you've heard on the internet? Dead People vote in Chicago, dude...you can't be very alive and be dead. :rolleyes: Yes people vote for many of these jackholes. They also have no alternative, due to substantial efforts to suppress voters and/or candidacy.

Your casual dismissal of thousands actually millions of innocent people harmed is sickening. People who have alternative viewpoints deserve whatever they get, including all the crimes they are victims of. It's their fault, because they cannot/will not move and they are 'breeders', eh? That's straight fucked up, dude.

I did not 'victim blame' - I did not even say that the blame was shared equally among the parties involved. I suggested that there was responsibility on the parts of multiple individuals and inaction is partly responsible for the event. I didn't say, "Wal-Mart got what it deserved since they didn't board up their windows." Go back and re-read what I wrote and get it straight.

[okie john]

Are we going to suggest that Wal-Mart lacks the financial resources to adequately protect their stores?

The word "protect" can have many definitions.

As individuals, we tend to see one looted store as a total loss because we think of profit in terms of sales. To protect ourselves, we want to avoid that kind of loss, so we either would not rebuild in the same spot or we might convert existing stores into bunkers.

Wal-Mart's FY2019 revenue was over $514 billion from more than 4,700 stores in the US and more than 11,500 stores worldwide. How much of that revenue became profit depends on when and how they choose to invest, how they balance operational expenditures against capital expenditures, acquisition/divestiture of assets, how they interact with tax codes, how they work with local, county, state and other government entities, etc. As a result, losing one store is a different proposition for them. There's also public opinion and the value of the Wal-Mart brand over the long haul: abandoning inner city stores or visibly hardening them pretty much invites activists to ravage the Wal-Mart brand and put a serious dent in that $514 billion figure.

The boardroom protects the bottom line, so they might be willing to tolerate losing a store here and there. They might hire Colin Kapernick to cut the ribbon on their new stores. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure that their legal and accounting departments are already working find silver linings in all of this.


Okie John

[RevolverRob]

The word "protect" can have many definitions.

As individuals, we tend to see one looted store as a total loss because we think of profit in terms of sales. To protect ourselves, we want to avoid that kind of loss, so we either would not rebuild in the same spot or we might convert existing stores into bunkers.

Wal-Mart's FY2019 revenue was over $514 billion from more than 4,700 stores in the US and more than 11,500 stores worldwide. How much of that revenue became profit depends on when and how they choose to invest, how they balance operational expenditures against capital expenditures, acquisition/divestiture of assets, how they interact with tax codes, how they work with local, county, state and other government entities, etc. As a result, losing one store is a different proposition for them. There's also public opinion and the value of the Wal-Mart brand over the long haul: abandoning inner city stores or visibly hardening them pretty much invites activists to ravage the Wal-Mart brand and put a serious dent in that $514 billion figure.

The boardroom protects the bottom line, so they might be willing to tolerate losing a store here and there. They might hire Colin Kapernick to cut the ribbon on their new stores. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure that their legal and accounting departments are already working find silver linings in all of this.


Okie John

John, I'm firmly in agreement with you.

A company that has 11,500 stores and billions in revenue - can afford to lose a store or two, due to natural disaster or man made disaster, etc. The neighborhood this market is in cannot afford to lose the store. Such is the nature of the problem here and in many low income places - the people are subject to the best interests of the rich and the whims of those with poor impulse control. It is a vicious cycle for those who have few alternative choices. I suspect that Wal-Mart will 'rebuild' the store in question (i.e., restock it and replace the two broken windows and the broken fixtures), because the opening of that store gave them a lot of good will in the broad community.

___

The idea that folks are bandying about that the people in this neighborhood are the problem and therefore they should suffer the loss of their only grocery store within a 2-square mile radius, because they voted for 'progressive liberal wastelands' and get what they deserve - is delusional.

I agree that the City of Chicago bears some responsibility for failing to adequately control rioting and looting, particularly the first and second nights it occurred. Simultaneously, how does someone vote for a riot? I've had people effectively say in THIS THREAD, "You can't blame the business owners for being looted." While simultaneously blaming voters for electing Aldermen and a Mayor who did not say, "Go loot!" but instead said, "Please, stop doing this. This is not how we seek change. We're sending the cops and national guard in full force to stop you." And then did that very thing to control the situation.

If it's not incumbent upon business owners to protect their interests against rioters, how can it be incumbent upon voters to prevent riots? It can't.

Some folks need to go take a long hard look in the mirror and get their ideas straight and internally consistent, before they suggest that low-income folks who are working honest jobs and trying to live their lives have to suffer, because criminals may (or may not) live within their community. We threw 'victim blaming' out for suggesting a business protect itself, but glossed right over the victim blaming that occurred for the people that live in these places.

[scjbash]

The audio is worth a chuckle.


https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/06/08/mayor-lori-lightfoot-and-ald-raymond-lopez-have-foul-mouthed-argument-over-looting-youre-100-full-of-s-mayor-says/

[HCountyGuy]

So you're well versed in the history of Chicago Machine Politics? I mean actually - not just what you've heard on the internet? Dead People vote in Chicago, dude...you can't be very alive and be dead. :rolleyes: Yes people vote for many of these jackholes. They also have no alternative, due to substantial efforts to suppress voters and/or candidacy.

Your casual dismissal of thousands actually millions of innocent people harmed is sickening. People who have alternative viewpoints deserve whatever they get, including all the crimes they are victims of. It's their fault, because they cannot/will not move and they are 'breeders', eh? That's straight fucked up, dude.

I did not 'victim blame' - I did not even say that the blame was shared equally among the parties involved. I suggested that there was responsibility on the parts of multiple individuals and inaction is partly responsible for the event. I didn't say, "Wal-Mart got what it deserved since they didn't board up their windows." Go back and re-read what I wrote and get it straight.

Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth. You’re the one sitting here claiming “they got what they had coming” because of inaction. What are they supposed to do, arm up and blast anybody who comes near their store with a brick in their hand? The jails and courts would be packed for months.

Actions have consequences. Stop voting in the dickheads ruining your life just because they pose for a photo-op where they’re wearing African garbs (which would be cultural appropriation if done by anyone else) so they can act like they give a shit while continuing to screw shit up because the good idea fairy hangs around them. Damn near every city having a problem with riots and “police brutality“ is Democrat controlled and has been for DECADES.

I didn’t casually dismiss shit. I even mentioned sympathy for those who aren’t continually contributing to the problem by voting for the same shit they claim to be tired of. But yeah I have little sympathy for those who do.

[Duces Tecum]

I don't blame Mayor Lightfoot for begging in this regard.

That particular Wal-Mart is ~10-12 blocks from me and is the ONLY grocery store in that area. It serves a fairly large area of low-to-moderate income people who are in fairly desperate need of a grocery store. That store also anchors a corner where businesses have reflourished in the area. This area was a wasteland 10-years ago and since building the Wal-Mart it has continually improved. You guys know, or should know by now, I am not Wal-Mart's biggest fan. However, this particular store is really one that is helping the area a lot.

Businesses don't exist to benefit an area. They exist to benefit from an area.

To suggest that a corporation "owes" it to the neighborhood to subsidize an unprofitable location because there are "nice" people in the vicinity and, besides, the corporation can "afford" the losses is just not something that resonates with most people. But I understand the motive. It is always easier to virtue signal with someone else's money than to hazard one's own.

[JRB]

Another unspoken fundamental issue - the use of any kind of force to stop looting/theft from stores is lawsuit bait of the highest order.
With 'big box' stores, the potential lawsuit costs wildly exceed the value of what's stolen and I'm not sure that emptying an entire store of its whole inventory can compare to some of these insane 7 and 8 digit settlement figures.

[Flamingo]

___

The idea that folks are bandying about that the people in this neighborhood are the problem and therefore they should suffer the loss of their only grocery store within a 2-square mile radius, because they voted for 'progressive liberal wastelands' and get what they deserve - is delusional.



Why was this the only grocery store in 2 miles? A huge problem for grocery (and most other) stores is theft. That is a huge reason that Mom and Pop type stores closed down is that they could not afford the overhead related to theft. I spoke to the loss prevention manager a few years ago at the Wallgreen's in downtown Seattle and he told me that they lose at least a million dollars to shoplifting a year.

I feel for the good people that live there and are to poor to move away, but I also mourn for the people of Mexico, Venezuela and Zimbabwe who live in resource rich lands that are ruled by socialist tyrants who squander the potential their country offers.

There are chances that things can change, but without true buy in by the people living in that area there will be no change.
Here is a neat video of a farmer returning to his land and feeding the people in his "neighborhood".

https://youtu.be/L3pD8jvCP6k

[blues]

RevolverRob

I think Walmart, (a company with obviously deep pockets), realizes that if they were to have armed personnel defending their stores against looters etc...

...the repercussions would be staggering in regard to the cost of legal representation for any of their hired staff who used violence to protect property, the cost of civil suits and judgments, and the anger in the wake of these in the community served.

They have long ago come to the conclusion that it would be better for them to take the immediate loss, recoup what they can from insurance, get a sweetheart deal from the city, and the goodwill of the community upon reopening.

As to the poor bastards that own small businesses, they are virtually left hanging in the breeze. It's heartbreaking.

[RoyGBiv]

While I agree with you whole-heartedly upon the basis of compassion for all people, the one over-arching lesson that I learned early in my career as a street cop must always remain borne in our minds: ''I/You/We cannot save people from themselves.''

The other expression that vividly comes to mind is "Don't shit where you eat!".

If I was going to riot, it certainly wouldn't be in my home town.

[RoyGBiv]

I feel for the good people that live there and are to poor to move away,

Can you ever be too poor to move away from a maelstrom? Serious question.

[RevolverRob]

Businesses don't exist to benefit an area. They exist to benefit from an area.

To suggest that a corporation "owes" it to the neighborhood to subsidize an unprofitable location because there are "nice" people in the vicinity and, besides, the corporation can "afford" the losses is just not something that resonates with most people. But I understand the motive. It is always easier to virtue signal with someone else's money than to hazard one's own.




I did not intend to suggest that Wal-Mart 'owes' anyone anything. Even if they can afford it.

I have not looked directly at the finances of that particular store. But I can't imagine it is not profitable, since there is no other nearby competition. Given that the store in question served to anchor and then drive economic development in the area over the past 5 years, I think that tends to suggest it was profitable overall, right? At 11,500 stores globally, Wal-Mart doesn't strike me as a company that lets stores sit as unprofitable ventures for very long. They make money selling things afterall. In addition, that particular store serving as the anchor has increased the profitably, tax revenue, and property values surrounding that area and improved the quality of the neighborhood and residents, simultaneously.

It seems like a win-win-win overall - except for the part where the store was looted last week (I'll again mention, there is a distinct possibility the looters came from other neighborhoods).


Why was this the only grocery store in 2 miles? A huge problem for grocery (and most other) stores is theft. That is a huge reason that Mom and Pop type stores closed down is that they could not afford the overhead related to theft. I spoke to the loss prevention manager a few years ago at the Wallgreen's in downtown Seattle and he told me that they lose at least a million dollars to shoplifting a year.

I feel for the good people that live there and are to poor to move away, but I also mourn for the people of Mexico, Venezuela and Zimbabwe who live in resource rich lands that are ruled by socialist tyrants who squander the potential their country offers.

There are chances that things can change, but without true buy in by the people living in that area there will be no change.
Here is a neat video of a farmer returning to his land and feeding the people in his "neighborhood".

https://youtu.be/L3pD8jvCP6k

This particular neighborhood was historically part of 2-3 neighborhoods that housed the Robert Taylor Homes, Chicago's largest central housing project (which ran down State Street for nearly 3.5 miles) From the 1950s until they were torn down in the 1990s, this area was absolutely, utterly, and completely, dominated by the crime and criminal organizations within the Robert Taylor projects. Following the 1990s when the buildings were demolished and the residents were rehomed or otherwise dispersed across the city, the whole area become effectively abandoned overnight. I drive down State Street regularly past where these buildings once stood, there are only vacant lots now. Previous small businesses that catered to the area, all closed with the elimination of the projects. The neighborhood was basically a ghost town - a single IGA grocery store was the only grocery store serving the area for ~15 years, but that store went away in ~2008 or so when IGA closed all of its Chicago stores (they are still based in Chicago, but no longer operate stores within Chicago).

Beginning on the heels of the 2008 Recession, people began moving back into this area, due to the low property costs. It was not actually (and is not actually) a super high crime area. Yes, crime is higher in this neighborhood than others in Chicago, but it is not a neighborhood with a substantial murder rate or even gang activity today. A goodly portion of that is owed to the fact that people who stayed in the neighborhood were the few who had the money and ability to stay and those who moved back where looking for ways to save money and rebuild following during/following the recession. By the time they began petitioning Wal-Mart to build, there was a substantial need for a grocery store due to population growth in the neighborhood and the closing of the only store. There have been at various times, efforts to build/rebuild small mom and pop grocery stores in that vicinity as well, but the logistics of grocery stores make profitability for small companies very hard and none of them have lasted.

So, that is why this area only really has one grocery store - it is a reflection of strong historical inertia within the area. If the neighborhood continues to grow like it has been (questionable now that we in 'Rona) - I could see another grocery store chain moving into the area in the next ~5 years. But that's not on the table at this point (to my knowledge).

FWIW, I really harbor some resentment towards The Obama Foundation right now. A non-profit organization named for a man who was ostensibly a community organizer and leader, should want to be focused on improving the quality of life of many people. When they first began discussing locations for the Obama Presidential Library, one site, right on the edge of my neighborhood and the neighborhood we're discussing above, was a prime choice. That particular choice, would have revitalized an area that has been economically defunct since the mid-1990s. It would have had quick access to the L and prompted investment in businesses and public transit improvements that are desperately needed. Property values tripled overnight based on the prospect but when it became clear the Obama Foundation had chosen a site on the other side of my neighborhood (close to the lake) - the bottom dropped out. Instead of building a place that could lift a community, The Obama Library will be built on a section of public park, to do that they destroyed the local High School's only outdoor recreational space (football field and dirt track). Some "community organizer and leader"...:rolleyes:

[TAZ]

Can you ever be too poor to move away from a maelstrom? Serious question.

I fortunately yes you can often be too poor to relocate. I know we often make comments about just move out if NYS, Cali..., but there are situations where that’s not possible without serious help. If you have no family structure to support you and you’re on a fixed income you just might be screwed.

In my AO, apartments run credit checks to make sure you make enough to cover rent. Could someone on SS income with a paid for home in a burned out neighborhood pass a credit check to move into a nice neighborhood? Now they might make it doable using social services, but that may take time and be a pita.

I don’t think it would be easy to do. Necessary definitely, but easy and quick not so much.

I feel sorry for folks in these areas should businesses simply say screw it and move along. The social contract involves more than just a one way demand fir businesses to have sympathy for the plight of certain areas. Society holds part of that contract along the lines if acting decently and government also contributes to the contract via protective services. In the case of these riots and movements to limit responsibility and protection, society and government are not living up to their end of the bargain. Government leadership refuse to protect assets/people in immediate threat. Can’t/won’t is generally irrelevant. The agreement for immediate help was broken. Political leadership is unwilling to make offer long term protections. Maybe there is an valid excuse fir just not being able to respond in such a mass event. No excuse though for literally immediate release of criminals to go back and wreak havoc.

Double down on riots not being covered by insurance... and it’s not hard to see why businesses are facing harsh choices.

[RoyGBiv]

I don’t think it would be easy to do. Necessary definitely, but easy and quick not so much.
Certainly.

But, if it's worthwhile, easy and quick are not a requirement. Plan. Do.

I can only speak for the poverty I experienced growing up poor (and white) in NYC. The #1 impediment I witnessed was the lack of self empowerment. Helplessness. No medium or long term vision. No consideration that you can do something meaningful and feel successful if that something is only incremental. You don't go from being broke to being a Kardashian overnight, or even in a generation. If that's your measure of success, good luck. #2 was the maturity to delay gratification. Save. Invest (in self and in savings). You don't need a $1,000 iPhone. Or drugs. Seriously. I've purchased lots of clothes from the Salvation Army store.

I certainly agree that lots of people are in pretty deep already. A few kids. Single parent. Drop out. Even that's not an impossible situation with a good mindset, planning and sacrifice.

I've met a lot of people traveling the country for work. I've heard different versions of the same stories many times... "My mom sent me down here to live with my aunt in 1986, because the schools at home were so terrible. My mom moved in with us a few years ago." ..... And.... "I moved here with my daughter after I got divorced. I only knew one person and she let us sleep in her spare room for a month until I could find a job and we rented a 2BR for the three of us." (she was GORGEOUS, FWIW).

Hopelessness is paralyzing. I know it.

[RJ]

While I see your sentiment, reality is way more complex.
Southside Walmart? It's a numbers question. How much did it cost? What is the City wiling to do to offset the loss? Political winds favorable? Decide.
Plenty of high end location looting too. Agreed that the security paradigms will likely change, I expect these places to get rebuilt.



Copy.

Any thoughts on typical investment cost for a major big-box retailer in an urban setting like WalMart or Target? Talking bare shelves, ready for delivery of standard inventory...assuming a clear site and nothing wierd in terms of construction delays (storms, hurricanes, riots, looting...:cool:) Just trying to get a sense of the magnitude of the cash outlay (I assume it's not cash, just trying to get a sense of the cost) required to replace one of these stores that got burned down.

[Duces Tecum]

Any thoughts on typical investment cost for a major big-box retailer in an urban setting like WalMart or Target? Talking bare shelves, ready for delivery of standard inventory...assuming a clear site and nothing wierd in terms of construction delays (storms, hurricanes, riots, looting...:cool:) Just trying to get a sense of the magnitude of the cash outlay (I assume it's not cash, just trying to get a sense of the cost) required to replace one of these stores that got burned down.

It's not complete (land / permits and fees, etc), but this might help:
https://www.stovallconstructioninc.com/news/commercial-construction-costs-build-outs/

[RJ]

It's not complete (land / permits and fees, etc), but this might help:
https://www.stovallconstructioninc.com/news/commercial-construction-costs-build-outs/

Right, thanks. So another link I found, the average WalMart Super Center is about 180,000 ft sq. Using the link you provided, free standing big box stores were cited around $44 to $48. If WalMart is on the low end of this, then a typical Supercenter is around $7.9M, just to get constructed. Same link then mentions outfitting:

Displays and Fixtures: $7-$11.57 per square foot
HVAC: $2.61 per square foot
Roofing: $3.59-$4.41 per square foot
Ceiling: $0.42-$1.81 per square foot
Signs: Indoor signage installation averages around $0.93 per square foot, while outdoor signage installation averages $1.43 per square foot.
Indoor Lighting and Electric: $3.20-$3.85 per square foot
Flooring: $2.76-$3.77 per square foot"

So if I take the low end of all those, add them up, I get $17.42, or for our mythical Superstore, about $3.1M. We are around $11M or so, for the store.

Plus Inventory, which I have no clue about, but my local WalMart has a lotta pots and pans...That's a pretty big check to write, if there isn't, really, a plan for local government to stop looting and rioting so that all that shit burns down, again.

[Duces Tecum]

Right, thanks. So another link I found, the average WalMart Super Center is about 180,000 ft sq. Using the link you provided, free standing big box stores were cited around $44 to $48. If WalMart is on the low end of this, then a typical Supercenter is around $7.9M, just to get constructed. Same link then mentions outfitting:

Displays and Fixtures: $7-$11.57 per square foot
HVAC: $2.61 per square foot
Roofing: $3.59-$4.41 per square foot
Ceiling: $0.42-$1.81 per square foot
Signs: Indoor signage installation averages around $0.93 per square foot, while outdoor signage installation averages $1.43 per square foot.
Indoor Lighting and Electric: $3.20-$3.85 per square foot
Flooring: $2.76-$3.77 per square foot"

So if I take the low end of all those, add them up, I get $17.42, or for our mythical Superstore, about $3.1M. We are around $11M or so, for the store.

Plus Inventory, which I have no clue about, but my local WalMart has a lotta pots and pans...That's a pretty big check to write, if there isn't, really, a plan for local government to stop looting and rioting so that all that shit burns down, again.

WalMart's operating margin hovers around 3.88%.
https://www.gurufocus.com/term/operatingmargin/WMT/Operating-Margin-Percentage/Walmart

[farscott]

Recent history (Ferguson, MO) has shown that many businesses that are destroyed during riots and looting never reopen. The famous QuikTrip in Ferguson is gone, and a community center now sits on the site, complete with a memorial to Michael Brown. Another nearby QuikTrip was closed as it was decided the risk was too high for the reward.

Wal-Mart, like any business, has to decide where to focus resources. New stores require a huge investment, including site selection and permitting, long before any construction begins or a store is stocked. In this case, Wal-Mart is ahead of the curve as the store was there and the city government wants it to be there again. The approval process for a rebuilt store should be quicker and less costly than that on a new site. Utilities are there, traffic resources (every Wal-Mart gets traffic lights), the roads are there, and a known supply chain that supports that store exists. That will get balanced against the possibility of a rebuilt store destroyed again, the projected returns of other new stores to be built, how the store was performing before being destroyed, some politics (tax abatement and agreements), and costs. Wal-Mart is certainly self-insured, but there is no insurance for damage caused by riots. So Wal-Mart or Chicago will pay for any new store if one is built.

[Crow Hunter]

The city should use eminent domain and buy the property in question. Pay to have it cleared. Then it should offer it up rent/property tax free for 50 years to LOCAL minority owned businesses to come into the area and either subsidize their buildings or even better, build spec buildings for the types of businesses they want in the area rather than giving incentives to Wal-Mart or some other oversized anti-competitive corporation to come back in offering low wage work and overpriced Chinese junk.

Give the local people a reason to work, thrive, live and love their home and neighborhood.

But that will never happen because lip service and optics are easier and more important than actually fixing anything for both parties.

[the Schwartz]

The other expression that vividly comes to mind is "Don't shit where you eat!".

If I was going to riot, it certainly wouldn't be in my home town.

Shhhhhhhhh.... let's not plant ideas where they've not grown before. ;)

[omega9]

The city should use eminent domain and buy the property in question. Pay to have it cleared. Then it should offer it up rent/property tax free for 50 years to LOCAL minority owned businesses to come into the area and either subsidize their buildings or even better, build spec buildings for the types of businesses they want in the area rather than giving incentives to Wal-Mart or some other oversized anti-competitive corporation to come back in offering low wage work and overpriced Chinese junk.

Give the local people a reason to work, thrive, live and love their home and neighborhood.

But that will never happen because lip service and optics are easier and more important than actually fixing anything for both parties.

Lolz... I’m sure if the owners’ of these businesses had just put up a sign that said “minority owned” the looters would have walked right by their stores.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/06/02/in-a-riots-ashes-minneapolis-business-owners-support-protesters-but-wish-it-wouldve-gone-differently/amp/

[hufnagel]

Not to mention, but can you imagine trying to get insurance on a business in that area these days? I suspect that a lot of people are learning more about Force Majeure clauses than they ever wanted to know.

(emphasis added by me.)

Relates to the post I made in the other thread about how you can never actually be "made whole", but especially so when your "insurance" company sticks their finger up at you. I bet there's a ton of personal insurance claims that are being denied right now under the flag of Force Majeure.

[hufnagel]

RevolverRob

I think Walmart, (a company with obviously deep pockets), realizes that if they were to have armed personnel defending their stores against looters etc...

...the repercussions would be staggering in regard to the cost of legal representation for any of their hired staff who used violence to protect property, the cost of civil suits and judgments, and the anger in the wake of these in the community served.

They have long ago come to the conclusion that it would be better for them to take the immediate loss, recoup what they can from insurance, get a sweetheart deal from the city, and the goodwill of the community upon reopening.

As to the poor bastards that own small businesses, they are virtually left hanging in the breeze. It's heartbreaking.

How about a "you can't be sued criminally or civilly for defending your property during time of a Force Majeure type event." law being enacted?

[RJ]

Lolz... I’m sure if the owners’ of these businesses had just put up a sign that said “minority owned” the looters would have walked right by their stores.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/06/02/in-a-riots-ashes-minneapolis-business-owners-support-protesters-but-wish-it-wouldve-gone-differently/amp/

Money quote:

"In attempts to keep their businesses safe, some minority business owners put “Black-Owned Business” or “Black Lives Matter” signs on their boarded-up storefronts. Shantae Holmes, the owner of All Washed Up Laundromat, said that on the first night of demonstrations she couldn’t fathom black-owned businesses being attacked, but did not find her neighborhood staple spared."

You got looted because you were visited by a pack of marauding assholes looking for shit to steal, and when they were done, they thought it might be fun to toss in a can of gasoline and set it on fire. Pretty simple.

Heartbreaking, nonetheless. These communities may never, and probably will never, be the same again.

[Poconnor]

Businesses don't exist to benefit an area. They exist to benefit from an area.

To suggest that a corporation "owes" it to the neighborhood to subsidize an unprofitable location because there are "nice" people in the vicinity and, besides, the corporation can "afford" the losses is just not something that resonates with most people. But I understand the motive. It is always easier to virtue signal with someone else's money than to hazard one's own.




I first experienced the problems of inner city businesses going to college in Philadelphia in the 80s. Surrounding the campus were poor black neighborhoods. Abandoned, burned and or crashed cars stayed on the streets because the city said they didn’t have the money to remove Them. Every block had abandoned houses. I don’t remember Any grocery stores or box stores. Locals shopped at small grocery stores owned by Koreans. There was a lot of friction between the Koreans and the locals. The Koreans were accused of preying on the locals. I remember thinking they were the only ones willing to do business in the area. I vividly remember going to a 7-11 after dark and the front door was locked. They had a speaker and a steel drawer like a bank. You told them what you wanted. I have long wondered why a rich black celebrity hasn’t opened up a grocery store/ pharmacy store chain in neighborhoods like this one. Oprah could team up with Walmart or amazon building brick and mortar stores in these neighborhoods. Donate a percentage to local charities. I have no idea how much it would cost but I’m sure Bezos and Oprah could pay to build 200 stores and not even notice it.

[hufnagel]

I first experienced the problems of inner city businesses going to college in Philadelphia in the 80s. Surrounding the campus were poor black neighborhoods. Abandoned, burned and or crashed cars stayed on the streets because the city said they didn’t have the money to remove Them. Every block had abandoned houses. I don’t remember Any grocery stores or box stores. Locals shopped at small grocery stores owned by Koreans. There was a lot of friction between the Koreans and the locals. The Koreans were accused of preying on the locals. I remember thinking they were the only ones willing to do business in the area. I vividly remember going to a 7-11 after dark and the front door was locked. They had a speaker and a steel drawer like a bank. You told them what you wanted. I have long wondered why a rich black celebrity hasn’t opened up a grocery store/ pharmacy store chain in neighborhoods like this one. Oprah could team up with Walmart or amazon building brick and mortar stores in these neighborhoods. Donate a percentage to local charities. I have no idea how much it would cost but I’m sure Bezos and Oprah could pay to build 200 stores and not even notice it.

why in god's name would anyone rich do that? it's be more useful to set fire to stacks of cash and warm their houses.

[RJ]

why in god's name would anyone rich do that? it's be more useful to set fire to stacks of cash and warm their houses.

Absolutely.

Far better to soak the capitalist pig-dogs of their life-savings through tax increases and redistribute it to our brothers on the front lines, eh comrade? Oh, sorry for any misspellings; I'm typing this from my yacht here in the harbor of Monaco, and a light breeze is rolling the deck.

[Poconnor]

Why? To make money. I’m sure Oprah could convince Hollywood to donate enough money to make it work not to mention the tax breaks and grants from the cities.

[RoyGBiv]

Chicago crime stats updated daily.

https://heyjackass.com/category/chicago-crime-2020/


July to Date
Shot & Killed: 87
Shot & Wounded: 436
Total Shot: 523
Total Homicides: 97

Last Week’s Totals (7/19 – 7/25)
Shot & Killed: 22
Shot & Wounded: 116
Total Shot: 138
Total Homicides: 23


Year to Date
Shot & Killed: 395
Shot & Wounded: 1846
Total Shot: 2241
Total Homicides: 438