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jeffreywt
05-29-2012, 09:38 PM
Can anyone provide some suggestions for par times on specific drills?

I'm looking for things like:

Hands relaxed at sides, draw to first shot/sight picture - 1.6 seconds
Hands relaxed at sides, draw to first shot/sight picture, reload, second shot/sight picture - 3.7 seconds

Those times might be slow for some or most folks here. They are examples and happen to be the times I can do those two drills in on a consistent and smooth basis.

My apologies if this has been covered previously. I searched but didn't come up with anything similar. I guess this is asking what other types of things can I practice against a par time and what types of numbers should I be aiming for?

Thanks!

Ben Stoeger
05-29-2012, 09:54 PM
Can anyone provide some suggestions for par times on specific drills?

I'm looking for things like:

Hands relaxed at sides, draw to first shot/sight picture - 1.6 seconds
Hands relaxed at sides, draw to first shot/sight picture, reload, second shot/sight picture - 3.7 seconds

Those times might be slow for some or most folks here. They are examples and happen to be the times I can do those two drills in on a consistent and smooth basis.

My apologies if this has been covered previously. I searched but didn't come up with anything similar. I guess this is asking what other types of things can I practice against a par time and what types of numbers should I be aiming for?

Thanks!

Your holster, gun, mag pouches, targets, and target distance all sort of factor in.

1.6 seconds would be pretty good out of an ankle holster but not great out of an open topped strong side holster.

jeffreywt
05-29-2012, 10:03 PM
Your holster, gun, mag pouches, targets, and target distance all sort of factor in.

In my case, a typical production setup:

Blade-tech DOH, Glock 17, CR Speed pouches, IPSC silhouette, 7 yards :D

Or were you implying that it's sort of unanswerable? I can see how all that would factor in. I'm just trying to find a goal and some ideas for what to do using par times.

Thanks!

CCT125US
05-29-2012, 10:28 PM
If you are simply looking for some drills to try I might suggest working your way through these....
http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?47-Drill-of-the-Week

As well as...
http://pistol-training.com/drills

As to your specific question, the times you list would be good from concealment at 7yds to a 3x5 card.

And welcome to the forum

DonovanM
05-30-2012, 12:09 AM
Are you talking dry fire or live fire?

Also depends on your goals and the amount of time you have/want to dedicate to it. If you're busting your ass every day out for world domination, your long term goal should be in the area of .6/1.4 on those drills. 4s El Pres, 1.6s Bill drill.

But if you're only looking as far ahead as A class - which is perfectly fine - I would try for 1/2.3 - 2.5 for those. 6.5-7s El Pres, 2.2s Bill drill.

I would recommend getting Steve Anderson's dry fire books. They're full of drills to try - dry and live - with scaled par times for all of them to shoot for so you can really track your progress.

Good luck. Don't get discouraged, it's easy to :)

JFK
05-30-2012, 03:37 AM
Can anyone provide some suggestions for par times on specific drills?

Hands relaxed at sides, draw to first shot/sight picture - 1.6 seconds
Hands relaxed at sides, draw to first shot/sight picture, reload, second shot/sight picture - 3.7 seconds

Those times might be slow for some or most folks here. They are examples and happen to be the times I can do those two drills in on a consistent and smooth basis.


I think you are on the right track already. Unless the drill you are shooting calls for a specific par time I would set your own. Use a scientific method though. Shoot the drill you want without a par time several times as fast as you can while still getting your hits. Track all your data and then take an average of this. Then set a par time that is "hard" but doable and go from there.

For example on your hands relaxed at sides, draw to first shot/sight picture, reload, second shot/sight picture:
Lets say you shoot it six times and your times were, 3.89, 3.90, 3.70, 3.55, 3.14, 3.65 it would give you an average time of 3.63. It would be reasonable to say your par time should be 3.6 or 3.5.

I do this and if I am 80 - 90 % under par and still getting my hits (fast is no good without hits) then I reduce my par. If I fall below 70% par, or 80% hits then I raise my par.

The big thing is tracking from session to session. That is the only way you can push yourself to see improvement. Once I started doing this I notice massive improvement.

ToddG
05-30-2012, 08:19 AM
Can anyone provide some suggestions for par times on specific drills?

To what purpose?

I could easily say "really good guys can draw in x.yz seconds!" So what? Maybe you're nowhere near good enough for that. Maybe you're right on the cusp of that. Maybe you can already blow that away.

Establish your baseline -- what you can do consistently on demand today, not your one-time personal best -- and then work to improve that incrementally. Set your goals based on your performance.

beltjones
05-30-2012, 09:34 AM
The main point seems to be "it's relative." It's relative to what gun you're using and what equipment you're using and what target you're shooting at and how far away it is and your current skill level and so on.

The main thing to be asking is, "Out of my Production rig shooting at a USPSA metric target at 7 yards my draw is 1.6 seconds. What do I need to work on to get it down to XX seconds?"

There has been some good advice here so far, but one of the keys is really troubleshooting everything with the draw and reload. If you find yourself missing your current par time, rather than raising the time, figure out why you're going slower than you were before. There is loads of material out there, and also loads of bad info.

For example, watch Bob Vogel's draw and reload or Ben Stoeger's draw and reload in the FAST wars threads. Do they look like the common wisdom for drawing and reloading? No they don't. There is no "press out," there is no super high reload with the gun inches from your nose, and yet they are somehow much much faster. The key is to simplify everything, not make it more difficult with a five step draw or some complicated reload procedure. Simply seek economy of motion, get smooth and consistent, practice efficiently, and watch the tenths of seconds fall off your times.

GOP
05-30-2012, 10:21 AM
Par times are meant to be broken.

I repeatedly push myself to the limits of my performance in training, and it pays off. I'm a huge fan of drills and such with a scoring element, I don't like pass/fail type tests or par times because they usually cater to a lower skill level or encourage skill maintenance. Pick a par time, beat it, set a lower par time, beat it, set a lower par time, beat it, set a world record, beat it, etc. I think that is a much better mentality to have.

Ben Stoeger
05-30-2012, 12:37 PM
In my case, a typical production setup:

Blade-tech DOH, Glock 17, CR Speed pouches, IPSC silhouette, 7 yards :D

Or were you implying that it's sort of unanswerable? I can see how all that would factor in. I'm just trying to find a goal and some ideas for what to do using par times.

Thanks!

Your question is totally answerable.

.8 seconds for a hands at side draw to a sight picture (not a shot) is very easy for guys that train. .6 seconds is common at the upper levels.

rudy99
05-30-2012, 02:23 PM
I will sometimes look to standards set be certain trainers as an initial benchmark for myself.

For example, here are the CSAT standards (http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/standards.htm) for pistol:


1. Ready 1 shot 1 target 7 yards 1 SEC
2. Holster 1 shot 1 target 7 yards 1.7 SEC
3. Ready 2 shots 1 target 7 yards 1.5 SEC
4. Ready 5/1 shots 1 target 7 yards 3 SEC
5. Ready 4 shots 2x target 7 yards 3 SEC
6. Ready 4 shots 2x weak/2x strong (1target) 5 SEC
7. Ready 1 shot Malfunction drill (1 target) 3 SEC
8. Ready 4 shots 2 Reload 2 (1 target) 5 SEC
9. Rifle up 1 shot Dry fire/transition 3.25 SEC
10. Holster 1 shot Kneeling (1 target) 25 yards 3.25 SEC

I would say I use the rifle standards more, given I don't practice as much with the rifle, just to make sure I'm at least maintaining a certain level of performance. Kyle Defoor (http://www.kyledefoor.com/2012/02/defoor-shooting-tests.html) has his own set of standards and I'm sure others do as well. I'm well below the average experience level here, but this seems to work for me as something to at least shoot for from a bare minimum perspective.

I'd also recommend checking out some of the DOTW speed push items: DotW 20: SHO & WHO Speed Push (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3130-DotW-20-SHO-amp-WHO-Speed-Push&highlight=speed+push) and Week 7: 3x5 Speed Push (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2218-Week-7-3x5-Speed-Push&highlight=speed+push) for ideas on how to increase speed a set a new standard for yourself. This is something I've been meaning to do once I get a little further down the experience road.

LOKNLOD
05-30-2012, 04:04 PM
.8 seconds for a hands at side draw to a sight picture (not a shot) is very easy for guys that train.

You are specific to say sight picture, not shot. How much does time to shot differ for you? Since you word it this way, is it safe to assume you are acquiring sight picture at full extension before beginning the trigger press?

Ben Stoeger
05-30-2012, 06:46 PM
You are specific to say sight picture, not shot. How much does time to shot differ for you? Since you word it this way, is it safe to assume you are acquiring sight picture at full extension before beginning the trigger press?

I don't think the time differs at all in dryfire, but I think it is a poor habit to always draw to a shot. Many people want to pull the trigger just to beat the par time without actually seeing anything.

I know that I usually train to get a sight picture and THEN pull the trigger, but when I am pushing really hard on close targets I tend to round off the edges a bit.

YVK
05-31-2012, 12:37 AM
I know that I usually train to get a sight picture and THEN pull the trigger.

Ben, so I understand you correctly: you're shooting DA/SA with the first shot being DA, and you are getting a sight picture first, before even starting a trigger pull?

From a practical example, that barrage of sub-3 FASTs, your hammer didn't start moving back until you had your sight on those 3x5(or 4) cards?

Ben Stoeger
05-31-2012, 06:30 AM
Ben, so I understand you correctly: you're shooting DA/SA with the first shot being DA, and you are getting a sight picture first, before even starting a trigger pull?

From a practical example, that barrage of sub-3 FASTs, your hammer didn't start moving back until you had your sight on those 3x5(or 4) cards?


The second half of my post answered that. When I am pushing hard, I cut corners. Most of the time, it is sight picture and then trigger press.

xarmyguy77
05-31-2012, 07:45 AM
I just happened to be practicing draw to first shot last night. I keep pushing the par timer lower to force myself to run faster. I ended up on 1 second with maybe a tenth or two to spare. I thought that was greased lightning fast until Ben just said .6 tenths!!! Good God...

jeffreywt
05-31-2012, 10:11 PM
Thanks for all the input here. Good insight and tips abound. :D

DonovanM
06-01-2012, 10:20 PM
I just happened to be practicing draw to first shot last night. I keep pushing the par timer lower to force myself to run faster. I ended up on 1 second with maybe a tenth or two to spare. I thought that was greased lightning fast until Ben just said .6 tenths!!! Good God...

I'm nowhere near Ben's level, but I think you'd be surprised at what's possible given a little dedicated practice. I've been working on my draw from AIWB... If I'm really flying I can get a sight picture from concealment in .6.

GJM
06-01-2012, 10:26 PM
I am not doubting, but this I want to see on video.

DonovanM
06-01-2012, 11:34 PM
Ask and you shall receive! I kept going until I screwed up. Got 2 1/2 minutes straight of pretty good draws right around the .6 mark. On a few I missed it, and on a few I convincingly beat the par time. All of my sight pictures were inside of a 6" square at ~20ft or so. I know my hands are cut off in the video, but I didn't start holding my shirt or something, they were just relaxed at sides.

A caveat, I can't do this in live fire yet, much less at a match or something... soon!

Another caveat, I would never ever EVER carry AIWB with a loose undershirt like this. I just wanted to save you all from my belly :) Even though I look my gun into my holster... it's just not worth the risk of it bunching up and getting in the holster. Maybe something more compression fit... this one is way too loose though.

Say what you will about "junk carry"... it is scary fast. Also, SIRT pistols rock.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS1IXQU9ACk

Al T.
08-22-2012, 05:28 PM
Never mind. :D