A naval what-if, for fun - Taffy 3

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Since there is so much doom and gloom, I propose a recreational what-if. I like to read naval history and just been reading :

Storm Over Leyte: The Philippine Invasion and the Destruction of the Japanese Navy
by John Prados (https://amzn.to/37j2jGS)

and

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary World War II Story of the U.S. Navy's Finest Hour
by James D. Hornfischer (https://amzn.to/2YgdMTs)

This is the battle of Taffy 3 (and some associated aircraft from Taffy 2) against a giant Japanese surface fleet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar


There have been quite a few alternate history books, films and anime where a warship ro two bounces back in time to some critical instance in history. Some are fun, some are stupid.

Thus, being bored, I give you this:

A storm like the one in Final Countdown (fun but stupid ending) replaces Taffy 3 with the following that happen to be sailing around together:

6 USN Wasp - amphib assault ships = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp-class_amphibious_assault_ship. They will configured for sea control with 20 Harriers and 6 Cobra helicopters.

For escort: Instead of the Fletchers, we get 3 Ticos and for the DEs, we get 4 latest Arleigh Burkes. They are loaded with the usual combo of missiles for sea control.

The two fleets discover each other at the same distances as in Samar. Basically at the horizon distances. Assume the USN ships don't just screw up from disbelief but figure it out quickly.

What to do? I have ideas but I'll leave it to the group.

If this is stupid, don't play - it's a lockdown exercise. We are reopening now, and won't have to resort to such soon!

[Lon]

If they can keep out of range of the IJN guns, I do believe it’s pretty much game over for the IJN. I think there’s enough firepower in that combo to wipe the remainder of the IJN from the seas. I think one or two of the Ticos could deal with the forces facing Taffy 2/3.

[Caballoflaco]

Assuming we don’t have to deal with time traveling conundrums like erasing yourself by altering history.

Tell all USN ships to set a course away from Japanese fleet. Order the missle guys to start launching missles. Order Harrier pilots to go blow up ships. Order the coffee guy to make sure the coffee is fresh. Enjoy the show.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Would the standard loads of the Wasp's air groups have the ordnance to sink a battleship or heavy cruiser? They could certainly screw up the superstructures.

Now the Ticos and Burkes each have 8 Harpoons. It was argued in the days when the Iowas were reactivated that cruise missiles might not be a stopper. Norman Friedman (an expert of surface ships) wrote that - arguing a Harpoon was equivalent to an 11 inch shell and the battleships could take that. The Standard missiles if used in surface warfare mode, don't have that much of a warhead. Of course, being pelted with dozens of them as an unknown matter, would be disconcerting. I don't know if the current ships carry a normal load of antiship Tomahawks on a day to day basis.

No significant torpedos nowadays (except in subs). The 5 inch guns probably have a longer reach and better fire control. Some of the Japanese big ships took significant damage from the 5 inch 38 cal guns.

The strafing from the Taffys' airgroups had an effect with 50 cals. The Harriers have 25mm pods, IIRC - correct me if I'm wrong. They would be much more dangerous to superstructure.

I didn't add any subs - a modern Virginia would sink all of the major Japanese ships or damage them enough not to continue. The Belgrano experience demonstrates that.

[Bergeron]

I don't feel a very pressing need to sink the entirety of the Japanese fleet as much as I do to disorganize it, and run it off.

6x Wasp, 3x Tico, and 4x AB represents a heavy amount of firepower. I'll assume that Maritime Strike Tomahawk is not yet fielded. Way too easy if it is.

I don't know, but The Internet seems to think that the Harrier can fire Harpoons. 6x Wasp with 6x Harriers each carrying a pair of Harpoons would be 72 missiles. Adding the 8x of the Ticos and ABs gives us an additional 56. If the US forces understand what's happening, it should be possible to set up a Time On Target attack with over 120 missiles impacting 23 ships(? please check me) roughly simultaneously. I'm not even worried if none of them sink, nobody is going to be combat-effective after that, particularly considering the total shock that would be added to getting hit by uknown ships and unknown aircraft with unkown weapons.

Option B would be to kite the Japanese with Surface Mode SM-2. Again, goal is more to disorganize than to totally destroy. The Japanese would be unable to stop or respond to SM-2, and even if it's, let's say, 20x SM-2 per Tico and AB, that's 140 missiles. Instead of the all-at-once TOT of the Harpoon strike, how long with the IJN force be able to tolerate the USN sailing big circles outside of gun/torpedo range, getting helplessly pelted by a new and unkown weapon?

Honestly, it might not even be a fight. I could see the Japanese fleeing if they saw 6 straight-deck carriers on the horizon. Bonus points if any of the USN crew could speak Japanese, raise the enemy on the radio, and talk them into fleeing.


Glenn E. Meyer, I'm sure we'd all like to hear your particular thoughts as well.

[Caballoflaco]

I like Drachinifel and his Samar video and alternative history Samar video are both worth a watch if you’re interested in this time period of naval warfare.


https://youtu.be/4AdcvDiA3lE


https://youtu.be/EJJWG0viaZQ

[Doc_Glock]

I honestly don’t understand most of what you are writing. (What in hellos a Tico?). My naval knowledge pretty much ends with WWII.

But damn I loved “Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.” Outstanding book.

[ccmdfd]

But damn I loved “Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.” Outstanding book.

Neptune's Inferno, which is the story of Guadalcanal, is much better (same author).

Pretty sure Tico is short for Ticonderoga class guided missile cruiser.

[Nightvisionary]

One thing we learned from Operation Preying Mantis is that superstructure damage does not take a ship out of action and it took multiple Harpoon and Skipper (Laser guided 1000lb MK83 bomb) missile strikes to destroy the small Iranian Frigate, the Sahand. The smallest Imperial Japanese Navy destroyers present at the battle were the Kagero class which at over 2000 tons displacement is about twice the displacement of the Iranian Frigate. The IJN ships would be much harder to kill.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

What I think.

1. I don't think they would flee from seeing the 6 bigger ships. They were after Essex class if they could find them. In fact, they reported that they were closing with big carriers at first.

2. I don't think the USN forces have the firepower to easily sink the battleships. The Yamato and Mushashi class took lots of torpedo and bombs to sink. On the other hand, Italian battleships were one shotted by German radio controlled glide bombs with a lucky hit. Hood went boom on a lucky magic hit. Thus, I wouldn't try to sink them.

3. The harassment and attacks of the Taffy 2 and 3 planes were major factors in discouraging Kurita and seriously damaged ships.

4. My strategy (da DAH) is more mission kill and psyching out Kurita to flee. He seemed to be hesitant after the fight started. I would put the Harpoons first (not all of them, maybe 4 per BB) into the superstructures and bridges. Same with guided weapons from the Harriers. The South Dakota was mission killed by the Kirishima and saved by the Washingon.

5. Then the Harriers using bombs and whatever guided ordnance they have could continue to attack the Yamato, where Kurita is located. The unusual attack might further discourage him.

Harrier could also attack the cruisers.

6. I wouldn't use up the Standards yet, unless things get bad.

7. The Japanese destroyers and their torpedos are a real threat. The US cruisers and destroyers might engage and hope their 5 inch guns can be effective at longer range. However, they are outgunned so charging the Japanese might not be a good idea. The Cobras might attack the destroyers with guided weapons and try to stay out of gun AA range, but this might be difficult. Harriers if they can be diverted with their 25 mm guns would be good to strafe the destroyers.

The Ticos and Burkes charging would be not a good idea unless in extremity given their lack of torpedos, limited guns and missiles not being close in weapons.

Fire the rest of the Harpoons and Standards if the Japanese keep coming.

A nuance, in some of the time displacement stories, the USA freaks out faced with a racially integrated, gender equated armed forces. Much resistance to those ideas. But that's a different problem.

Thus, clobbering the control areas of the big ships and repeated air attacks by weird planes -

[Zincwarrior]

A freakish wormhole opens up as the DKM Bismark prepares to fire on USN Hood. The Bismark goes through the wormhole and appears 18,000 yards off the Japanese capital ships. Both sides, seeing capital ships, fire away...:rolleyes:

[JTQ]

Is there an E-2 Hawkeye on those small carriers? If so, it's probably a pretty quick battle. Without an air controller, it's going to last a little longer.

[Nightvisionary]

Is there an E-2 Hawkeye on those small carriers? If so, it's probably a pretty quick battle. Without an air controller, it's going to last a little longer.

No fixed wing non-VTOL on the US Side.

On another note the SM-2 Standard missiles were also used in the ASM during Praying Mantis with mixed results. Definitely not a ship killer. If the IJN 5 inch guns were dual purpose with AA capability like the U.S. Navy 5 inch 38 mounts the Cobra helicopters would be extremely vulnerable as one was shot down during Praying Mantis by Iranians using significantly lighter weapons.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Japanese had lot of DP AA guns in larger calibers and lots of smaller 25mm, IIRC. I would have to look it up and I am too lazy to get the book off the shelf. I was digging in the yard and now am a FOG haze.