Why The Holosun 507C V2 is Making Me Love Circle Dot Reticles!

[Dennis]

I have never been an EOTech guy. While I have had a couple on principle and still run one on a Tavor because it looks cool, I have always thought the reticle was too busy not to mention the battery life. After much carbine training I didn't need more than a dot to make hits with carbines and was used to the holdover. I have had dozens of Aimpoints and probably have over a dozen mounted right now to include a T1 on a duty long gun.

Then came Holosun and I started getting them for all my fun guns and I got a couple circle dot ones that are neat, but it still wasn't doing it for me on carbines.

Now that my Dept. is authorizing them, I am getting into pistol mounted MRDS and got a G17 and G19 MOS. I started with a RMR06 and was having trouble finding the dot quickly. After much work I got better but still couldn't get on target as fast as my decades of front sight training had ingrained into me. More and more dry fire helped, but I still wasn't happy...

When the 507C V2 (https://amzn.to/2Aajdew) came out I was intrigued by the beefiness, the buttons, the solar, the shake awake, although not really the reticle. I almost bought a 407C (https://www.amazon.com/HOLOSUN-HS407C-V2-Classic-Red-Sight/dp/B084WHQ84Q/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=Holosun+407c&qid=1591542665&sr=8-4) instead but then went for it just to see what would happen. I mounted it on my G19 and OMG! Within a dozen presentations I could almost instantly find the dot and get on target! All the arguments I had heard for EOTech on carbines came true instantly for me with a MRDS. My eye instantly catches the circle dot and allows for quick aiming especially up close where I am used to a flash front sight picture. Also, the dot is much crisper than the RMR06 (https://www.amazon.com/Trijicon-RM06-C-700672-Adjustable-Sight-Reticle/dp/B0721L3PKC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3BCI859EHJ4DF&dchild=1&keywords=rmr06&qid=1591542604&sprefix=Rmr0%2Caps%2C151&sr=8-1).

Now, the 507C V2 is not perfect. Indoors dry fire finds many situations where the auto brightness fails to include pointing at the TV or out bright window. Maybe these are too unique of a situation as I have not seen the issue outdoors, but it doesn't mean it can't happen. Of course, this is also an issue with the RMR06 or probably any sight using auto brightness.

Lots more shooting and training to go, but this is definitely an interesting revelation for me.

Dennis.

[GJM]

I think you should experiment with turning the center dot off, and try using just the circle. This allows you to look at the target, and your eye will naturally center the target in the circle, which is very fast and gets rid of the bouncing dot.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think you should experiment with turning the center dot off, and try using just the circle. This allows you to look at the target, and your eye will naturally center the target in the circle, which is very fast and gets rid of the bouncing dot.

Do you think this option would ease the transition into dots? I've been considering getting a Glock MOS to start testing the waters for myself.

[RJ]

Do you think this option would ease the transition into dots? I've been considering getting a Glock MOS to start testing the waters for myself.

Following.

P365XL here, waiting for either Bratch or GJM to try out a 507k before I buy an optic myself. Also, paging cornstalker.

[BillSWPA]

Watching this thread as well. I am seriously considering a P365XL with a 407k as my first red dot pistol, but am now seriously considering the 507k.


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[Dennis]

I think you should experiment with turning the center dot off, and try using just the circle. This allows you to look at the target, and your eye will naturally center the target in the circle, which is very fast and gets rid of the bouncing dot.Good idea! Will do.

Dennis.



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[Poconnor]

I have a Glock 19 MOS in order. I couldn’t decide between the holosun or the RMR. I think you have judged me towards the holosun

[cornstalker]

Following.

P365XL here, waiting for either Bratch or GJM to try out a 507k before I buy an optic myself. Also, paging cornstalker.

Be tough to say until we get to try them out. I have a Pre-order in for a 407k, but don’t have a clue when I will see it.

[Blades]

I don't have a red dot equipped handgun. I played with one a few years back but had a hard time finding the dot. I'm 52, and as many know, your eyes get old. A red dot is in my future.
When you say circle dot this is what I found:
55528

The one I tried in the past was just a dot, so you have me wondering if the circle dot would be better. I need to try a circle dot and see if it is easier to find.
And I need to determine if my muffin top is going to push the gun/optic out from my waist.

[GJM]

Do you think this option would ease the transition into dots? I've been considering getting a Glock MOS to start testing the waters for myself.

I believe a circle makes it easier, since with a misaligned optic, you may see a part of the circle where a dot may be gone from the display.

Beyond a misaligned optic, using just a circle reticle helps you to look at the target not the reticle, eliminates a “bouncing dot,” and using your eye’s ability to naturally center things, can be very fast. I wish Holosun made a slide pistol optic with a larger display than the 507 with the circle option.

[TAZ]

I don't have a red dot equipped handgun. I played with one a few years back but had a hard time finding the dot. I'm 52, and as many know, your eyes get old. A red dot is in my future.
When you say circle dot this is what I found:
55528

The one I tried in the past was just a dot, so you have me wondering if the circle dot would be better. I need to try a circle dot and see if it is easier to find.
And I need to determine if my muffin top is going to push the gun/optic out from my waist.

The above are the reticle options for the Holosun 50X series.

WRT the muffin top.. My muffin top doesn't expose the RDS, but the rear of the slide/BUIS. For me the RDS has little impact on conealability, but YMMV

[Kanye Wyoming]

I’ve become pretty well smitten with the Shadow Systems MR918. Last fall I picked up a second with the RMR cut, along with a 507C. Not long before the lockdown I put the 507C on #2, and ran maybe 150 rounds through it pre-lockdown while zeroing and towards merely becoming accustomed to the concept. My plan was to take a course or a few red dot specific lessons before thinking about carrying it, and I hadn’t run any drills with it on the assumption that the results would not provide useful information at my stage of the red dot game.

Today was post-lockdown mega-super-maximux range day. But for a lunch break I was there from about 12:30 to 6:30 and had all sorts of fun. The son of one of my friends is a gun nut (I mean enthusiast). He just graduated from high school and had gotten a new rifle as a graduation present. He texted me mid-afternoon and joined me soon after. I have mentioned before the F*ck You Bloomberg modern sporting rifle I bought a while ago for the sole purpose of saying F*ck You Bloomberg and the Rest of You Freedom Hating F*cksticks, but had never taken out of the box. I was relying on the kid to show me the ropes one of these days, he said go and get it so I went and got it, he showed me the ropes, and he shot several of my pistols. (Pro tip - I recommend having sights on an AR-15. While this is just my subjective impression, the lack of sights seemed to affect accuracy.)

Back to the subject at hand. One of the other fun things I did today, just as a lark, was to run THE TEST a few times with the 507C-equipped MR918. The result?

DAMN! Equal scores to the regular MR918 with lower times (like a quarter to a half second lower), and just so darned easy. As people here have said, like cheating.

Next time I’ll try it with just the circle per GJM’s suggestion, but even with the dot and circle, I found my eyes were easily and naturally drawn to the circle.

I’m still going to get some training before deciding whether to carry with the 507C, but I have to say I was very impressed.

[BehindBlueI's]

I believe a circle makes it easier, since with a misaligned optic, you may see a part of the circle where a dot may be gone from the display.

Beyond a misaligned optic, using just a circle reticle helps you to look at the target not the reticle, eliminates a “bouncing dot,” and using your eye’s ability to naturally center things, can be very fast. I wish Holosun made a slide pistol optic with a larger display than the 507 with the circle option.

This topic is of increasing interest to me as today at in-service I learned we're planning to go to red dots on an option on duty guns in a year or so. The department will buy MOS Glocks but you'll have to buy your own dot. Holoson GTG for the rigors of duty use, you think?

[GJM]

This topic is of increasing interest to me as today at in-service I learned we're planning to go to red dots on an option on duty guns in a year or so. The department will buy MOS Glocks but you'll have to buy your own dot. Holoson GTG for the rigors of duty use, you think?

If a Holosun lasts a week, I think there is a reasonable chance it will hold up. Over the next months and year or two, we will have a lot more data as the Holosun optics get carried more. I am especially interested in the 508T V2 and 509T. With any red dot for serious use, I would make sure you have quality BUIS that hit POA/POI.

[ssb]

This topic is of increasing interest to me as today at in-service I learned we're planning to go to red dots on an option on duty guns in a year or so. The department will buy MOS Glocks but you'll have to buy your own dot. Holoson GTG for the rigors of duty use, you think?

FWIW, Steve Fisher and Aaron Cowan -- both of whom have trained plenty of LE/MIL organizations on this subject matter -- both consider Holosun to be good to go for duty use.

I do think closed emitter is the way to go for duty use, however -- in my experience, it's easier to shoot if the dot fails (has never happened to me but I do practice shooting both with and without BUIS -- the tube effect is helpful here), more weather-resistant when carried openly, and probably more durable overall than an open emitter design. I have a collective round count of about 5K through two Holosuns with no issues, and the only reason I left them was to go to a closed emitter unit. After trying one in class this weekend, I'd personally be taking a hard look at the new Holosun 509T for duty use.

[BehindBlueI's]

We'll have BUIS, I'm sure, as it'll be optional to have a dot.

[DaBigBR]

If you reach out to Phoenix PD, they are authorizing the 507C for duty use. I have a contact there and have sold a lot of 507C and 508T optics to their guys. He says the Holosuns outnumber RMRs at least 10:1.

[BehindBlueI's]

I believe a circle makes it easier, since with a misaligned optic, you may see a part of the circle where a dot may be gone from the display.

Beyond a misaligned optic, using just a circle reticle helps you to look at the target not the reticle, eliminates a “bouncing dot,” and using your eye’s ability to naturally center things, can be very fast. I wish Holosun made a slide pistol optic with a larger display than the 507 with the circle option.

If the circle is better and your eye natural centers a smaller target, do I really want the option of having the dot in the middle? Could I not save the $ and get the circle only version and not lose anything?

[GJM]

If the circle is better and your eye natural centers a smaller target, do I really want the option of having the dot in the middle? Could I not save the $ and get the circle only version and not lose anything?

I believe, but am not certain, that the “circle only” version, is a smaller 8 moa center circle with no large circle, in the form of the 407 series.

[BehindBlueI's]

I believe, but am not certain, that the “circle only” version, is a smaller 8 moa center circle with no large circle, in the form of the 407 series.

Ah, ok. Thanks.

[Caballoflaco]

Ah, ok. Thanks.

Here’s some photos and discussion in another thread of the smaller “donut o death” and the larger circle dot reticle further down that mrozowjj posted back in December for a comparison.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38369-HE508T-First-impressions-and-initial-range-review-with-comparison-to-RMR&p=964325&viewfull=1#post964325

[mrozowjj]

Here’s some photos and discussion in another thread of the smaller “donut o death” and the larger circle dot reticle further down that mrozowjj posted back in December for a comparison.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38369-HE508T-First-impressions-and-initial-range-review-with-comparison-to-RMR&p=964325&viewfull=1#post964325


The 8 MOA ring aka donut of death I like because with my eyes the smaller dots look like stars or commas where the ring looks like a nice crisp donut. I can treat it like a dot and for the most part that's exactly what I do. I have it on a few PCCs and in that case it's really beneficial because if you are aiming at something far away that's smaller than the ring you can kind of just center it in the ring. What I'm finding though is that for the most part most things you aim at are still larger than the 8 MOA outer diameter of the ring even at 100 yards (assuming you are aiming at USPSA/IDPA/ human sized targets so it's really just a "dot."

The concept of using just the 32 MOA circle that GJM is talking about it super interesting as like he said even with the 8 MOA ring I still find myself trying to line it up perfectly which is probably because I'm new to pistol dots and it's probably slowing me down. For a pistol 32 MOA is still smaller than a USPSA/IDAP/ human sized target at 25 yards; 32 MOA = about 8 inches at 25 yards, USPSA/IDPA targets are 18 inches, the down zero on an IDPA target is about 8" so at any reasonable distance the ring is going to be smaller in appearance than the down zero on an IDPA target. I think there's a rule in IDPA actually about how the bulk of the targets in the match have to be inside of 15 yards and at that distance the ring would appear to cover just under 5" on a IDPA target.

I was leaning very heavily towards the 6 MOA dot Holosun 407K down the road on a carry gun but this makes me want to try the 507K instead and just use the ring.

[DaBigBR]

I think the argument against the 32 MOA ring only as a sighting system is the results you usually see shooting a larger aperture sight over any kind of distance. Try to zero an AR with the large aperture or try to shoot a man-size target with any precision at 100 yards with one and you'll likely find that your ability to shoot precisely falls apart. The eye wants to center the front sight in the circle and does a pretty good job, but doesn't do as well as we'd like.

The 8 MOA circle, in theory, covers only 2" at 25 yards. An average width front sight is still nearly TWICE the width in MOA. A 32 MOA circle, in theory, covers 8" at 25 yards, or about twice the space of an average iron sight. Are you willing to risk the loss of precision with a circle that big? Even if the net effect of "being able to center the target in the circle" is more precise than a 32 MOA front iron sight, does that make it worth it?

I don't think shooting defensively at 25, 30, 40, 50, etc yards is such an outlandish possibilty that I would CHOOSE a reticle that large.

Now he 8 MOA circle, particularly for people with significant astigmatism, THAT is interesting.

[entropy]

Good read.

I have the 507c on a Krink clone and find it absolutely perfect for the application. A while back, I took GJMs advice and set up a USP45 for field use. I ended up putting a 6moa microdot on it, and quite honestly have been struggling with it. It is my first adventure into pistol application for a red dot and I find myself both slow and struggling to become comfortable with the skillset. I have an astigmatism that has varied over time (it seems) and while red dots can be hit and miss on appearance for me, the circle on the 507c is crisp and without distortion.

[BehindBlueI's]

Is there any compelling reason to choose the V2 over the V1? The battery tray is a selling point to me, but if the battery life is 5-ish years I dont' know how big a decision point I should make that. Or to phrase it a different way, if one could score a $75-$100 savings on a V1 is there any reason not to?

[Dennis]

Is there any compelling reason to choose the V2 over the V1? The battery tray is a selling point to me, but if the battery life is 5-ish years I dont' know how big a decision point I should make that. Or to phrase it a different way, if one could score a $75-$100 savings on a V1 is there any reason not to?Aside from likely internal upgrades the big buttons on the V2 are a good enough reason over the tiny V1 ones.

The battery tray just seals the deal.

Dennis.

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[ssb]

Is there any compelling reason to choose the V2 over the V1? The battery tray is a selling point to me, but if the battery life is 5-ish years I dont' know how big a decision point I should make that. Or to phrase it a different way, if one could score a $75-$100 savings on a V1 is there any reason not to?

I think the 5ish years battery life thing is a bit of a myth. Looks good on a spec sheet, but in practice you'll want the dot higher than the setting which gives you 50K hours -- kind of like how my "1.5 years on Setting 6" ACRO is really a 30-day pre-emptive battery change for me because I run it at 7 at night (allegedly 6 months) and 8-9 during the day (~3-4 weeks depending on the setting).

In practice, with a 507C or RMR, I would personally change the battery every six months or so as a preventative measure. If using a Gen 1 Holosun, I would recommend a) investing in an inch/pound torque wrench such as a Wheeler FAT Wrench and b) treating the mounting screws as consumables if removing the optic and c) buying some well-made torx/torx plus screws to mount the optic to the gun and d) not exceeding the manufacturer's suggested torque specs. I am far more comfortable having an optic where the battery can be changed without removing and remounting, and for that reason alone I would go with a V2 Holosun.

If price is a concern, I wouldn't shy away from a 407C V2 or 407CO V2 (8MOA circle) if you do not anticipate using the 32MOA circle reticle that seems to be the hotness right now. I personally think the 8MOA circle is a very interesting reticle and would be more comfortable with that than the 32MOA circle after using both -- both are big enough to do well up close, but the 8MOA is better at distance for me (I have a harder time trusting the centering of the target in the big circle at extended ranges). Given your profession, I do think 25 yard precision shots ought to be a consideration.

[GJM]

I think the argument against the 32 MOA ring only as a sighting system is the results you usually see shooting a larger aperture sight over any kind of distance. Try to zero an AR with the large aperture or try to shoot a man-size target with any precision at 100 yards with one and you'll likely find that your ability to shoot precisely falls apart. The eye wants to center the front sight in the circle and does a pretty good job, but doesn't do as well as we'd like.

The 8 MOA circle, in theory, covers only 2" at 25 yards. An average width front sight is still nearly TWICE the width in MOA. A 32 MOA circle, in theory, covers 8" at 25 yards, or about twice the space of an average iron sight. Are you willing to risk the loss of precision with a circle that big? Even if the net effect of "being able to center the target in the circle" is more precise than a 32 MOA front iron sight, does that make it worth it?

I don't think shooting defensively at 25, 30, 40, 50, etc yards is such an outlandish possibilty that I would CHOOSE a reticle that large.

Now he 8 MOA circle, particularly for people with significant astigmatism, THAT is interesting.

While I agree that many people struggle with precision (and it seems a fifty proposition) with a ghost ring, I disagree with that applying to the large Holosun circle. The ghost ring requires to center a front sight in the large aperture and the Holosun does not. The Holosun is like the “circle of death” on an AUG, which allows good precision. I have shot numerous groups at 25 with just the large Holosun circle and got similar or even better results than with a dot. I would use that for competition if the whole display was just larger. On my PCC, I use just the large circle with the bigger 512.

[Olim9]

Is there any compelling reason to choose the V2 over the V1? The battery tray is a selling point to me, but if the battery life is 5-ish years I dont' know how big a decision point I should make that. Or to phrase it a different way, if one could score a $75-$100 savings on a V1 is there any reason not to?

Don’t quote me on it but I could believe Holosun has improved their QA/QC with the V2s

[BehindBlueI's]

I think the 5ish years battery life thing is a bit of a myth. Looks good on a spec sheet, but in practice you'll want the dot higher than the setting which gives you 50K hours -- kind of like how my "1.5 years on Setting 6" ACRO is really a 30-day pre-emptive battery change for me because I run it at 7 at night (allegedly 6 months) and 8-9 during the day (~3-4 weeks depending on the setting).

In practice, with a 507C or RMR, I would personally change the battery every six months or so as a preventative measure. If using a Gen 1 Holosun, I would recommend a) investing in an inch/pound torque wrench such as a Wheeler FAT Wrench and b) treating the mounting screws as consumables if removing the optic and c) buying some well-made torx/torx plus screws to mount the optic to the gun and d) not exceeding the manufacturer's suggested torque specs. I am far more comfortable having an optic where the battery can be changed without removing and remounting, and for that reason alone I would go with a V2 Holosun.

If price is a concern, I wouldn't shy away from a 407C V2 or 407CO V2 (8MOA circle) if you do not anticipate using the 32MOA circle reticle that seems to be the hotness right now. I personally think the 8MOA circle is a very interesting reticle and would be more comfortable with that than the 32MOA circle after using both -- both are big enough to do well up close, but the 8MOA is better at distance for me (I have a harder time trusting the centering of the target in the big circle at extended ranges). Given your profession, I do think 25 yard precision shots ought to be a consideration.

Price is always a concern, but it's because I'm a cheap bastard and like a deal. If I can get the same thing for less, I want to, and just saw some V1s NIB on sale on the secondary market so figured I'd check. I don't mind springing for the V2 if it's worth it to do so and GJM is selling me on the utility of the larger dot for what is essentially a Fisher-Price My First Red Dot Pistol for me.