VP9 is a German Matryoshka doll

[JodyH]

I detail stripped one of my VP9's to replace the trigger bar today (this VP9 has always had a hiccup in the trigger press, now gone, must have been an out of spec trigger bar).
Damn thing is typical German over-engineering, why use one part when you can use three to do the same thing.
Just like a Matryoshka doll, you have a pin inside a spring inside another pin and spring.
And I do wish H&K would come up with a new trigger return spring design, their legacy setup of a tensioned torsion spring held in place by the slide stop/trigger axle is and always has been a pain in the ass to install.
That is all.

[M2CattleCo]

I've never been impressed with anything German engineering, from airplanes, to vehicles, to guns.

High quality complex mediocrity.

[JodyH]

High quality complex mediocrity.
Kind of like 1911's... :p

Glock is the gold standard when it comes to firearms engineering, which is weird coming out of Austria.
Austrian designs are often the worst mashup of German complexity and Italian half-assery.

[LockedBreech]

I had a VP9, shot really well with it and generally liked it. The day I decided to sell it, I had field stripped both it and my Glock 19 Gen 4 after spending a lot of the day dry firing both. I noted, as you did, what appeared to be notably higher complexity in the VP9, and yet I found the Glock 19's trigger much more predictable and with a slightly heavier and in my opinion safer trigger weight and pull length. Not to mention the added safety of a partially-tensioned striker system.

My VP9 never failed me. It shot well over about 1,000 rounds and I liked it. But when I asked myself what it offered me over what appeared to be a much simpler and marginally safer design, I couldn't offer anything up. Especially in the mountain west where the wind blows hard and tiny particles like to get into things.

I do miss the little "rabbit ears" on the rear serrations. I liked those a lot.

[OlongJohnson]

Glock is the gold standard when it comes to firearms engineering, which is weird coming out of Austria.
Austrian designs are often the worst mashup of German complexity and Italian half-assery.

G-wagens are built in Austria.

[MasterBlaster]

So true. The Glock is built from about 30 parts. The VP9 requires about 60!

[farscott]

I agree than HK tends to design using the German method of piling worst-case parameters on top of worst-case parameters ad infinitum and creating torture tests, adding parts to deal with scenarios that may happen about 3.4 times per million pieces and can never happen together, making the firearms more complex, harder to service, and adding unusual failure modes like the right side slide release being so loose it rattles even in the holster. Glock's design philosophy seems to be to use a small number of parts and making common parts even when it makes no sense, say having 9x19 and .40 use the same recoil spring assembly. HK's current expertise seems to be magazine design and materials selection, not firearms design. The P30/VP9 magazine appears to be durable and bomb proof, with springs not used outside of design parameters. I am still trying to wear out a single P30 magazine (as opposed to abuse).

On the other hand, no way HK is going to release a pistol that will go bang if dropped.

[Sharkbite]

SO....in summary, HK violates the K.I.S.S. principal to a ridiculous extent. HUH. Kinda like BMV.

What is funny about this is that my Wife has both a VP9 and owned a MINI Cooper (BMV Mfg) and likes to bad mouth "Gaston's Gallery" in my safe.

I have said, in reference to the Mini and is evidently applicable to the VP9 as well, buy German if you want to become an enthusiast and constantly tinker!

[JonInWA]

My VP40 and P30L are among, if not in reality the most accurate EDC/duty pistols in my possession. I'll field-strip, perhaps detail disassemble the slide; but that's it. Anything else, it goes back to HK, or to an HK-certified armorer/gunsmith.

That means, as LockedBreech discussed, if I'm in an environment where there's a chance I'll need to perform a detailed disassemble/re-assembly, especially out in the field, it's gonna be a Glock kinda day.

Best, Jon

[JTQ]

I have said, in reference to the Mini and is evidently applicable to the VP9 as well, buy German if you want to become an enthusiast and constantly tinker!
Perhaps enthusiast, but maybe not tinkerer.

I suspect there is a whole lot more tinkering going on with Glock's simply because you can. I think most folks are more like JonInWa where they are less likely to fiddle with the insides of their HK's.

My VP40 and P30L are among, if not in reality the most accurate EDC/duty pistols in my possession. I'll field-strip, perhaps detail disassemble the slide; but that's it. Anything else, it goes back to HK, or to an HK-certified armorer/gunsmith.

That means, as LockedBreech discussed, if I'm in an environment where there's a chance I'll need to perform a detailed disassemble/re-assembly, especially out in the field, it's gonna be a Glock kinda day.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

I agree than HK tends to design using the German method of piling worst-case parameters on top of worst-case parameters ad infinitum and creating torture tests, adding parts to deal with scenarios that may happen about 3.4 times per million pieces and can never happen together, making the firearms more complex, harder to service, and adding unusual failure modes like the right side slide release being so loose it rattles even in the holster. Glock's design philosophy seems to be to use a small number of parts and making common parts even when it makes no sense, say having 9x19 and .40 use the same recoil spring assembly. HK's current expertise seems to be magazine design and materials selection, not firearms design. The P30/VP9 magazine appears to be durable and bomb proof, with springs not used outside of design parameters. I am still trying to wear out a single P30 magazine (as opposed to abuse).

On the other hand, no way HK is going to release a pistol that will go bang if dropped.

If dropped it may also not go bang when you want it to. With all that design complexity HK should have supported the striker in a way that a doctor with a mallet couldn’t make it drop at will. :p

[JodyH]

VP9 "Trigger Stop Bolt" removal, "Roll Pin and Clamping Sleeve" let's use two parts instead of one, the way the "Dismounting Safety" is secured in the "Locking Block".
I think they borrowed the left side slide release lever spring from a mechanical watch, the damn thing is so small and easily lost that it has no place on a service handgun that might need repairs in the field.
All those parts are necessary and work as designed, they are also needlessly complicated for the end user/armorer.

[JodyH]

Despite all it's engineering faults... I'm back to VP9L/VP9/VP9SK for my handgun needs, the overall package just works for me and the way I shoot better than Glocks.
I prefer the paddle mag release and the trigger matches my jacked up index finger better (my trigger finger has a lot of scar tissue in the middle joint). I'll never shoot faster than .21 splits and the VP9 gives me the most control at that speed.

VP9L for competition.
VP9 with 17 round mags for the house.
VP9SK with 13 round mags for CCW.

[M2CattleCo]

Kind of like 1911's... :p

Glock is the gold standard when it comes to firearms engineering, which is weird coming out of Austria.
Austrian designs are often the worst mashup of German complexity and Italian half-assery.


Except a 1911 is not complex at all.

While Glock does lack the German complexity, they outdid the Italians on the half-assery.

[JodyH]

Except a 1911 is not complex at all.
Not really complex, just very dated engineering.
Critical parts that require hand fitting/adjustment, staking of critical parts etc..
Fine in the days when technically proficient labor was the backbone of manufacturing, not so great post "T3" (Rise of the Machines).

[farscott]

If dropped it may also not go bang when you want it to. With all that design complexity HK should have supported the striker in a way that a doctor with a mallet couldn’t make it drop at will. :p

My sneaking suspicion is that HK allows the pistol to go to the "not go bang" state because it is intrinsically safe with respect to regulatory agency terminology. While we may not like that the pistol may not be able to be fired after a drop, the German government may as there can be no AD/ND as part of a drop.

[Borderland]

It's really too bad the Japanese don't make pistols for the US market.

I'll take a Lexus over a BMW any day.

[Borderland]

Not really complex, just very dated engineering.
Critical parts that require hand fitting/adjustment, staking of critical parts etc..
Fine in the days when technically proficient labor was the backbone of manufacturing, not so great post "T3" (Rise of the Machines).

Designed for the cavalry. Not the 101st Airborne cavalry either.

[ralph]

I had two VP9’s at one time, sold them both.. When the videos of the striker being dropped just by getting smacked (and not all that hard) with a mallet, I decided that was a rather serious flaw, and sold them both, I carried DA/SA, LEM guns for the next couple of years, before trying Glocks again.. In the past I’ve had a horrible experience with Glocks, and BTF issues, I know I’ve went through 7-8, gen 3-4 g19’s two g21’s and one g17, all had erratic ejection, or would throw brass at me... Then I tried a g45 MOS, that had the breechface cut, no BTF, erratic ejection , I bought it, and a few weeks later bought a Gen 5 g19 MOS, along with Trijicon RMR’s for both..I can honestly say Glock finally resolved the BTF issue.

I never fully understood how HK could take a simple concept like a striker fired pistol and make it so complicated....If HK was going to do something, how about offering their DA/SA pistols with the slide cut for a Red dot? And, while they’re at it, how about making an effort to improve their DA/SA triggers? Imagine a HK45c, with a 8lb DA trigger, and a 4lb SA trigger, with the slide cut for a Red Dot..

[MGW]

JodyH are you done with the 9mm 1911 experiment?

[Borderland]

I had two VP9’s at one time, sold them both.. When the videos of the striker being dropped just by getting smacked (and not all that hard) with a mallet, I decided that was a rather serious flaw, and sold them both, I carried DA/SA, LEM guns for the next couple of years, before trying Glocks again.. In the past I’ve had a horrible experience with Glocks, and BTF issues, I know I’ve went through 7-8, gen 3-4 g19’s two g21’s and one g17, all had erratic ejection, or would throw brass at me... Then I tried a g45 MOS, that had the breechface cut, no BTF, erratic ejection , I bought it, and a few weeks later bought a Gen 5 g19 MOS, along with Trijicon RMR’s for both..I can honestly say Glock finally resolved the BTF issue.

I never fully understood how HK could take a simple concept like a striker fired pistol and make it so complicated....If HK was going to do something, how about offering their DA/SA pistols with the slide cut for a Red dot? And, while they’re at it, how about making an effort to improve their DA/SA triggers? Imagine a HK45c, with a 8lb DA trigger, and a 4lb SA trigger, with the slide cut for a Red Dot..

HK is slow to innovate. I don't think the trigger is that bad on my HK45. If I did I wouldn't have just purchased a P30. I don't like strikers so never owned one. I've shot a few Glocks though and the triggers seem to be a strong point.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

It's really too bad the Japanese don't make pistols for the US market.

I'll take a Lexus over a BMW any day.


The Japanese dont even make pistols for their own market. The JSDF recently adopted the VP9.

[ralph]

HK is slow to innovate. I don't think the trigger is that bad on my HK45. If I did I wouldn't have just purchased a P30. I don't like strikers so never owned one. I've shot a few Glocks though and the triggers seem to be a strong point.

HK DA/SA triggers seem to vary a bit from pistol to pistol, some really aren’t bad,quite useable, others, well, could use some help.. I have a HK45ct, while the DA trigger is smooth, it’s stiff, a lighter hammer spring would probably do the trick, buuut, The HK45c, hammer spring works only with the HK45c..and nothing else... At least with a USP, you have options..As far as I know, nobody in the aftermarket offers a lighter hammer spring for the HK45c, The only other options is LEM. I only went to the Glocks because I needed a Red Dot that could be easily and quickly mounted, My left eye is starting to develop a cataract, and while it’s not big enough to remove, its making seeing the front sight difficult,( blurry) shooting beyond 10-12 yds is difficult, with a RDS, 15 yds (far as I can go at the indoor range I frequent) is no problem.. I’m kicking around the idea of getting one of my HK45c’s slide milled.. The fact that Glock resolved the BTF, erratic ejection issues, had a MOS pistol ready to go, plus I had a stash of mags from my previous forays into Glockland, made the choice easy..

[19852+]

For some reason I enjoy discussions regarding national design and manufacturing tendencies. German vs. Italian, Austrian, US, Japan, British, etc. As a participant on a firearms board we all have an interest in firearms design but these national tendencies seem to go beyond firearms.

[JodyH]

JodyH are you done with the 9mm 1911 experiment?
As a carry gun yes, as a range toy for maintaining 1911 proficiency I'll keep it around.
10+1 in a 19X/VP9 size pistol just bugs me.
The VP9 is almost as soft shooting and almost as easy on my elbows as the 9mm 1911.

[gato naranja]

Damn thing is typical German over-engineering, why use one part when you can use three to do the same thing.
Just like a Matryoshka doll, you have a pin inside a spring inside another pin and spring.

Having paid little attention to the VP9, this sent me in search of exploded diagrams. The first time I detail stripped an HK rifle, I was sort of surprised by all the separate components (whether truly separate or part of a subassembly); after all, wasn't this the descendant of the "easy to produce" StuG 44? That was a teachable moment vis-a-vis ease of production vs a parts count.

To be fair, I used to think John M. Browning never used one part when he could use two or three, the 1911 inclusive (it took me a long time to understand why someone would ever want a separate plunger tube and grip bushings).

Context. Always the context.

[JodyH]

For some reason I enjoy discussions regarding national design and manufacturing tendencies. German vs. Italian, Austrian, US, Japan, British, etc. As a participant on a firearms board we all have an interest in firearms design but these national tendencies seem to go beyond firearms.
As the owner of Italian, Austrian and Japanese motorcycles I can only say stereotypes exist for a reason.
Japanese bikes are appliances built by the same robots that build toasters and designed by guys who trim Bonsai trees for fun.
Italian motorcycles are passionately built on the Friday before a holiday, designed by guys who have a supermodel Guma on the side.
Austrian bikes are meticulously engineered by Germans then assembled by hungover Italians on the Monday after a holiday.

[P30]

As the owner of Italian, Austrian and Japanese motorcycles I can only say stereotypes exist for a reason.
I ride a Honda CBR 600 RR, 2007 model, since 2007. Very good bike, still the lightest production bike with at least 600cc on the planet. My buddy rides a BMW S 1000 R, 2014 or '15 model. Very good bike, great ABS. Both bikes are very reliable and perform very well.

Do you know that Ducati is owned by German automotive manufacturer Audi since 2012? Audi is a member of the VW group. I think the new Ducatis are great and very reliable. Italian design meets German engineering, in a very cool way. Best of both worlds, I suppose. But very expensive, I don't want to spend that much many for a motorbike. So Ducati is a German/Italian mix, now. A simple stereotype does not fit Ducati anymore.

I'm not an expert on firearm design and manufacturing at all. But I tend to agree that the SFP9/VP9 unfortunately violates the KISS principle.

55521

PS:
If anybody is interested: I've got the SFP9 exploded-view drawing and corresponding parts list as PDF in good quality. Could not upload it here, file is 9 MB big.

[19852+]

In the course of my job/career I have used a lot of outboard motors. All the common ones at least. I've had the pleasure of repairing them or getting them repaired. One outboard mechanic told me that "Honda's are so complicated it's amazing they work, Tohatsu's are so rock simple it's amazing they work and Yamaha seems to have gotten the formula down right". All are Japanese but have different levels of complexity.
During WW2 the combatants all took different approaches to weapons and strategy, aircraft especially. As an example the Japanese preferred light and quick aircraft that could not absorb any punishment, the Bonsai spirit was supposed to carry the day. Whereas US aircraft were built rugged with heavy firepower. I'm sure we all can come up with many different examples.

If my history is correct HK pioneered the poly frame handgun, came out with the squeeze cocker and gas delayed blow back.

[JonInWA]

Perhaps enthusiast, but maybe not tinkerer.

I suspect there is a whole lot more tinkering going on with Glock's simply because you can. I think most folks are more like JonInWa where they are less likely to fiddle with the insides of their HK's.

My point isn't so much that I can't necessaily perform a detailed disassembly/reassembly on my HK VP and/or P30L, it's that to to so I'd pretty much need to be an an administrative setting (and a clean and well-lit one), and preferably with some more specialized tools for several of the HK pistol's components. And there are some tricks to HK's, particularly in reassembly that really require savant-like skills or proper training and/or adult supervision. Yeah, there's ample YouTube guidance and some very helpful detailed walk-throughs on the HKPro forum, but unless you REALLY know what you're doing...

A Glock can easily be detail disassembled and reassembled in the field, for the most part with a simple punch (or even a field-expediant punch).

HK techs have told me that they can often tell when an untrained/uncertified individual has performed detailed disassemblies/reassemblies of HK pistols, which in and of itself can potentially void the HK warranty.

Arguably, HK's are over-designed, with over-strength materiels, so that the average person simply has no necessity or reason to perform detailed disassemblies-at least in most likely situations that most users guns are likely to be exposed to . To me, that's perfectly acceptable-until you're out in the boonies and are faced with an actual need to perform such-such as when the gun is exposed to pervasive fine grit, or takes an immersion into silty water.

That's why I personally fell very comfortable in taking my HKs as PDWs on day hikes with my wife and as an EDC/duty gun in most of my daily circumstances/environments, but am much less likely to on an extended, isolated wilderness trip or hunt.

FWIW in this discussion, I'm far more comfortable in performing a detailed disassembly on a Beretta 92 (and in fact actually have) , which is inherently fairly parts-intensive, than I would be performing the same on either of my HKs.

Best, Jon

[RevolverRob]

There is a really simple motto to follow with all things German -

Cars
Motorcycles
Women
Guns
Etc.

Don’t fuck with anything under the hood. Maybe - MAYBE basic maintenance.

What you’re paying for when you opt German is the over-engineered, über precision, that comes with Teutonic obsession to detail. The whole idea behind German engineering is precisely to have thought of everything so you don’t have to.

Americans are sort of cavalier in this regard. We typically view customization as a need, not a luxury. And thus, because we view things this way, we typically want things built in an accessible way.

The thing about the VP9 is, aside from the striker dropping, the only thing it might need besides springs and oil is sights to your preferences.

[Sig_Fiend]

HK = Porsche
Glock = Toyota

H&K, as with Porsche, may have a tendency to over-engineer and over-complicate some designs. IMO, there is beauty in the engineering though, at least most of the times. Both can be extremely durable and reliable (I've owned 4 Porsches before so I speak from experience), even if sometimes they can be downright maddening to work on yourself. I'm just glad the VP9 exists, and hope it's selling well for them and helping keep the brand afloat. They may not be perfect, and the striker issues do concern me, but I personally think they were a good next step for the brand. Now, if we could just get a VP9 with a more robust striker/FPS design, with the prototype HK45 P2000-style grip, I'd be a happy camper!

Toyota, generally, has the stupid reliability and durability, but often without some of the insane engineering decisions. Not necessarily the "prettiest" vehicles. Some people say the same of Glocks. Not me, though. I enjoy them for what they are.

[OlongJohnson]

I believed all the comments about how difficult a USP is to detail strip until I actually did it. It's not that bad, except for the TRS, which is a PITA even with the pliers if you're installing the heavy spring. (I think one could design a better tool for the job than the pliers, to be honest.)

One thing I like about the USP is that the complexity is exploited effectively; many characteristics and functions are independent from each other, so you have great flexibility and adaptability in determining exactly how you want it to all work.* It's essentially modular; you pick what pieces you want, and mostly they'll all work together safely. Once you understand how it all fits together, it's easy enough to deal with. Might not want to do it in a mud pit, but then again, I've seen an automatic transmission overhauled in a mud pit, so it can be done.

The Glock's simplicity means that operational features and characteristics are all wrapped around each other, so if you change one thing, you're likely changing two or three other things, and there really isn't much scope for changing anything very much without risking a dangerous condition.

Have never handled a VP9 more than two feet from the gun counter.

*S&W 3rd-gens are the counterpoint: Just as complex if not more so, but almost no adaptability. Also, good for about 10 percent as many rounds before the frames can be expected to start cracking.

[Archer1440]

The Japanese dont even make pistols for their own market. The JSDF recently adopted the VP9.

Well, one might say there is no “market” for pistols in Japan.

The JSDF SIG P220’s that the VP9 (actually, SFP-9) is replacing are actually Made in Japan Minebea P9’s, made under license from the now-defunct SIG Germany. Among other things the Japanese pistols have the old-school heel mag release and a lanyard loop in the heel. I believe most in issued service are marked NMB (Nippon Miniature Bearing) which is MinebeaMitsumi’s original name.

The VP9 also has a lanyard provision. They do seem to like pistol lanyards in Japan. I noticed that Prime Minister Abe’s uniformed security detail had lanyarded pistols when I met with him a few years ago. (The other very watchful guys with him in suits had them concealed).


I ride a Honda CBR 600 RR, 2007 model, since 2007. Very good bike, still the lightest production bike with at least 600cc on the planet.


Me too! Bought mine as a showroom leftover in 2008. 55K miles and zero issues. Also have a VFR.

Here’s a link to a handy downloadable HK document with part numbers and exploded diagram.

https://www.waltertrading.cz/storage/document/1344/

[Mjolnir]

I love the VP9. I find that it has a lot of muzzle flip compared to the CZ P-10C. The VP-9 is more accurate with me behind it but the CZ does not have great sight options so that could play a large role.

Staring at one of my VP9s, I don’t think it to difficult to disassemble but it’s “overly engineered” and I am an mechanical engineer.

He VP9 was the only pistol I’ve ever owned that needed... NOTHING. Just Trijicon XDs.

What bothers me is the trigger. It’s light and it’s short.

When SIG had its latest issues and we all discussed HOW these striker pistols work I began to rethink my love for the Teutonic knight as I like to appendix carry.

Without a well-placed, ergonomic external safety (SIG P320 M17 & M18) she could not stay in the stable so I let them all go.

If anyone would like an”Armorer’s Manual” please PM me or email me and I’ll forward it to you. “TooSixty” on HKPRO took gorgeous photos with insightful comments and I cut/pasted and PDF’d the document.

Reed.Kevin.J@gmail.com