Thumb on hammer holstering a SA/DA ?

[Rmiked]

I own a Beretta 92A1. I don’t shoot competitively. I was watching an Ernest Langdon video about the things he likes about SA/DA pistol. One of them is his ability to put thumb on hammer when holstering the pistol compared to striker fired. I see the wisdom of having positive control of the hammer. One thing I like about an SA/DA (with visible hammer) is being able to tell if cocked by sight and/or feel, compared to striker fired. What I am not sure of is what is the undesirable outcome that might happen without thumb on hammer? In competition is it possible for the hammer to get hung up on clothing or belt and the hammer fall? I’m guessing and inadvertent discharge has happened in the past during a competition? With a Beretta 92 having the firing pin block, could it fire without pulling trigger if it the hammer did get snagged? And if you are putting thumb on hammer do you keep down pressure on it so it can get charged (pulled back), or do you put up pressure on it so it can’t fall forward, or do you just keep it from moving at all. I am gonna adopt the thumb practice when shooting and I want to apply it correctly. Up until now I exercise the decocker/safety (mine is not decock only) and then holster the pistol. Perhaps the thumb move is more useful with an active trigger (decock only)? Thanks

[JTQ]

It is the trigger getting snagged, not the hammer that is the issue.

Why are some folks concerned about reholstering a striker fired gun, especially AIWB? Because, if something catches the trigger, there is no way for you to know it pretty much until the gun goes bang.

With a hammer fired gun, particularly a DA/SA (they start DA with the first shot and then become SA), with the hammer decocked, when reholstering, if you have your thumb on the hammer, and something has gotten inside the trigger guard and is pulling the trigger, you instantly know, because you feel the hammer putting pressure on your thumb and you can stop.

[Duelist]

On the Beretta as taught by most, you decock, return the safety/decocker to the fire position, and then put your thumb on the hammer to assure that it does not move while you holster. If the hammer tries to start moving, your thumb prevents it from doing so. You stop holstering and pull the pistol back out and figure out what is contacting the trigger to cause it to try to shoot your leg or groin, clear the obstruction or problem, and then holster with the thumb again providing positive control of the firing system.

WIth a traditional DA revolver or DAO hammer-fired semiauto, you holster the same way, and with an SCD equipped Glock, you mimic the hammer fired semiauto by placing your thumb on the SCD while holstering. All give you positive control over the firing mechanism and tactile feedback to know if something is wrong, i.e., you’re about to put a hole where one doesn’t belong.

[Rmiked]

Wow! I never considered the Trigger. I knew there was a good reason . I just don’t have the experience to know why. Thanks for the explanation. This forum is awesome! I guess by me holstering mine with safety on (not decock only) the trigger won’t fire the pistol (dead trigger). But if I were to shoot a competition, I would be holstering the pistol with safety OFF, and then be vulnerable to this risk. Makes perfect sense now. Thank you.

[AdioSS]

And if you have a G model Beretta there is no safety.

[Jason M]

On the Beretta as taught by most, you decock, return the safety/decocker to the fire position, and then put your thumb on the hammer to assure that it does not move while you holster. If the hammer tries to start moving, your thumb prevents it from doing so. You stop holstering and pull the pistol back out and figure out what is contacting the trigger to cause it to try to shoot your leg or groin, clear the obstruction or problem, and then holster with the thumb again providing positive control of the firing system.

WIth a traditional DA revolver or DAO hammer-fired semiauto, you holster the same way, and with an SCD equipped Glock, you mimic the hammer fired semiauto by placing your thumb on the SCD while holstering. All give you positive control over the firing mechanism and tactile feedback to know if something is wrong, i.e., you’re about to put a hole where one doesn’t belong.

This was also how we were instructed with 2nd and 3rd gen S&W pistols.

[JTQ]

But if I were to shoot a competition, I would be holstering the pistol with safety OFF, and then be vulnerable to this risk. Makes perfect sense now. Thank you.
You mentioned competition in both posts, but it really isn't a competition issue. While it is your gun, and you can carry it any way you want, as the folks have mentioned above, most folks decock and then take the safety off.

Perhaps, this is the Langdon video you are referring to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8t-f54Im0

The part at about the 2:45 mark to the 3:30 mark will explain this.

However, the 2:05 mark to about the 2:45 mark is one of my favorite parts.

[Clusterfrack]

I always thumb the hammer when I holster my CZs. AIWB or my USPSA production rig, always thumb on hammer when it goes into the holster.

I’ve never had the trigger snag. But, I did once catch myself holstering with the hammer back, during a long practice session with lots and lots of draws.

[Rmiked]

Thanks. I watched the video. I like the idea of removing safety after decocking. The Beretta 92 is as safe as an SA/DA revolver in that configuration. I had a SW 686 (SA/DA revolver) for 25 years before getting the 92A1. One of the main reasons I like the Beretta 92 (compared to striker fired ) is how familiar it is compared to that revolver. I like being able to see the hammer. I like being able to shoot DA or SA. A class participant suggested Ernest’s 92 was “like a Glock”. I don’t know what he was talking about but Ernest clarified that they were NOT alike. That was an interesting exchange.

[JTQ]

A class participant suggested Ernest’s 92 was “like a Glock”. I don’t know what he was talking about but Ernest clarified that they were NOT alike. That was an interesting exchange.
Glock literature (and membership across dozens of internet gun forums) would have you believe the Glock Safe Action is a Double Action Only gun. As Mr. Langdon describes in the video, for the user, the Glock is much closer to a single action gun, than the DA/SA Beretta 92.

[BehindBlueI's]

I always thumb revolvers and Sigs, and why I prefer a hammer fired gun. It's a physical confirmation it's decocked and a way to detect and stop trigger movement from obstructions.

[Rmiked]

My son has a Glock 17 and I have shot it. My impression is that it is a single action (only) trigger. At least compared to the Beretta 92 double action, there is no comparison which is “safer” by requiring a more deliberate , long trigger travel. There may be some basis on which to claim it is double action (I don’t know) but from my shooting it, the last thing I would call it is “double action”. But I am comparing it to my SW 686 and Beretta 92A1 in double action mode.

[BehindBlueI's]

My son has a Glock 17 and I have shot it. My impression is that it is a single action (only) trigger. At least compared to the Beretta 92 double action, there is no comparison which is “safer” by requiring a more deliberate , long trigger travel. There may be some basis on which to claim it is double action (I don’t know) but from my shooting it, the last thing I would call it is “double action”. But I am comparing it to my SW 686 and Beretta 92A1 in double action mode.

Single action vs double action isn't determined by weight. It's determined by how many actions the trigger pull does. A single action's only action is to release. A double action cocks then releases. A Glock trigger finishes cocking the striker then releases it, thus two actions thus a double action.

It also allowed Glock to market them as double actions, which supposedly helped ease them into police circles, sometimes with the heavier NY- triggers.

[Stony Lane]

Many would be surprised how even fairly light thumb pressure on the (Beretta 92) hammer makes it very hard for the trigger to move.

[TheNewbie]

An SCD, hammer and/or manual safety is must on a carry gun for me. The only exception is my LCP.

You can feel the hammer move, but due to how recessed it is, you can’t easily prevent movement. The trigger pull is so long that I can live with this for the intended purpose of the LCP.

[YVK]

Many would be surprised how even fairly light thumb pressure on the (Beretta 92) hammer makes it very hard for the trigger to move.

Bill Rogers stated that x amount of pressure on hammer requires 7x amount of pressure on trigger to overcome. No idea where he got those numbers though.

[TheNewbie]

Regarding the SCD.

I have found that it is more sensitive to proper thumb placement than a hammer is. It can be more easily overcome than a hammer. If you pair an SCD with an NY1 trigger, then you have something very close to a hammer.

The SCD is a brilliant device, and should be on every Glock. It’s the only reason I will consider Glock as a carry option.

[AmericanIcon]

I once read somewhere that one should never need to re-holster quickly. Not sure if this is true all the time but the sentiment stands. One should take care to holster without snagging, and a hammer just helps keep the mind at ease.

[BehindBlueI's]

I once read somewhere that one should never need to re-holster quickly. Not sure if this is true all the time but the sentiment stands. One should take care to holster without snagging, and a hammer just helps keep the mind at ease.

That's not true and I have real world experiences were a fast holstering was required.

[AmericanIcon]

That's not true and I have real world experiences were a fast holstering was required.

Do tell!

[BehindBlueI's]

Do tell!

I've detailed them elsewhere here before. Most recently guy with a machete. Threw machete at me, then charged me. No longer armed with a deadly weapon but still a threat.

[UNM1136]

Do tell!

Meth head in a stolen car. Lead a 85+mph pusuit on city streets while shooting at my boss... Bailed out to chase the driver with an officer from another agency. While he was threatening to taze with all the attendant warnings I had to vault a fence to take the dude into custody under power...speed holstering was important, no, vital.

While teaching Active Shooter Response to CCW folks, I have to emphasize that the cops are rolling in looking for the dude with the gun. If it is you, it will be a rightous shoot, and it would suck to be you. If you drill an active shooter you need to holster before the cops get there.

I owe an apology to every student to whom I have preached preached "there is no race to get back into the holster..."

I even had a procedure for the same thing when I carried a 1911. The search button is your friend.

pat

[Mark D]

Mike Panone is another advocate of thumbing the hammer while reholstering.

In conjunction with thumbing the hammer, Panone uses his thumb to confirm the slide is in battery as the gun is secured in the holster. He says the slide can move out of battery when the pistol is pushed into in a snug holster, and this can induce a malfunction when the pistol is drawn next. If memory serves, he said the problem was more common with leather holsters.

[AmericanIcon]

Thank you for the updates. I was always curious if that statement stood true. I am a frequenter of other gun forums but was directed here by a good friend. I will be reading up as much as I can but you all do have an expansive list of posts!

[Rmiked]

Mark D, so the idea is if you are thumbing down on the hammer while inserting the pistol in holster, the downward pressure will resist any upward slide movement from holster friction, thereby preventing it from coming out of battery? Wow. That’s 2 good reasons to thumb down while holstering. The other being no inadvertent trigger actuation.

[Wheeler]

Bill Rogers stated that x amount of pressure on hammer requires 7x amount of pressure on trigger to overcome. No idea where he got those numbers though.

If Bill Rogers made the statement the numbers probably came from him and he mostly likely put in actual research to come up with that data.

[Wheeler]

That's not true and I have real world experiences were a fast holstering was required.

It would have probably been more accurate to say that there are very few instances where a private citizen would need to speed holster their pistol.

[BehindBlueI's]

It would have probably been more accurate to say that there are very few instances where a private citizen would need to speed holster their pistol.

Sure. A subset of a subset but not never. Odds, stakes, all that.

[Mark D]

Mark D, so the idea is if you are thumbing down on the hammer while inserting the pistol in holster, the downward pressure will resist any upward slide movement from holster friction, thereby preventing it from coming out of battery? Wow. That’s 2 good reasons to thumb down while holstering. The other being no inadvertent trigger actuation.

Panone said he confirms the slide is in battery by using the ball of his thumb to feel the slide/frame junction. On most pistols, if that spot is flush, the slide is in battery. If there's a "step" between the slide and frame, the slide has moved rearward during holstering. For most of us with normal sized thumbs, I think this is performed after thumbing the hammer and securing the pistol in the holster.

[randyho]

That's not true and I have real world experiences were a fast holstering was required.
Not challenging, but do tell. I've been in classes where getting the gun back in the holster right now appeared to be a priority. And I maintained distance from those people due to only that.

ETA: I seem to be not alone.

[EVP]

He already has in post#21.

[beenalongtime]

For the hammer using LEO's in this thread......

Besides the trigger feel, does thumbing the hammer, help you feel the firearm secure in the holster? (kind of wondering about the lifespan of retention holsters and how to tell to replace them)

Thanks

[TheNewbie]

For the hammer using LEO's in this thread......

Besides the trigger feel, does thumbing the hammer, help you feel the firearm secure in the holster? (kind of wondering about the lifespan of retention holsters and how to tell to replace them)

Thanks

It does for me.

[BehindBlueI's]

Not challenging, but do tell. I've been in classes where getting the gun back in the holster right now appeared to be a priority. And I maintained distance from those people due to only that.

ETA: I seem to be not alone.
.


I've detailed them elsewhere here before. Most recently guy with a machete. Threw machete at me, then charged me. No longer armed with a deadly weapon but still a threat.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Not challenging, but do tell. I've been in classes where getting the gun back in the holster right now appeared to be a priority. And I maintained distance from those people due to only that.

ETA: I seem to be not alone.

Context is everything.
Regular CCW folks generally just need the threat to go away. Uniformed Law Enforcement usually needs to close with and secure the threat.


For the hammer using LEO's in this thread......

Besides the trigger feel, does thumbing the hammer, help you feel the firearm secure in the holster? (kind of wondering about the lifespan of retention holsters and how to tell to replace them)

Thanks

Sure. It helps to keep the slide in battery, which generally ensures activation of retention devices.

As to the lifespan of retention holsters, it depends.
I've replaced ALS mechanisms when the plastic has worn down to the point that the brass threaded insert for the screw was rubbing on the slide. The holster body itself was still quite serviceable.

[Rex G]

Did anyone yet mention that the the inboard or outboard straps of some holsters, such as thumb break types, can get caught by the trigger, while the weapon is moving to re-holster?

This is one reason I transitioned from the G22 to the P229R DAK, during the time I had to use the Safariland 070-system holster, while on duty. The outboard, thumb strap, especially, could easily enter the trigger guard. (I only used the G22 on duty for 2.5years, between the 1911, and the P229. I had only moved away from the 1911, because the 707 holster interfered with my ability to get a proper firing grip a 1911, which requires a proper grip to interface with the grip safety. The SS III/070 holster caused me to curse Bill Rogers, from time to time. I hate gadgets that I am required to use, but which try to kill me. “I cursed him in English, and I cursed him in Dutch, and I cursed him in Spanish, overly much.”)

I reckon that Bill Rogers has redeemed himself, in my eyes, with the ALS/SLS holster, and its derivatives. Before I was required to use the SS III/070, and was using revolvers on duty, I loved the Rogers Trooper. The 070 system holster remains a good revolver rig, but I never really liked it, for autos. Maybe, with a straight drop, and worn a bit forward of 0300, it would be better, but, (curse word, again,) chicken-winging my hand, during a contact-distance kerfuffle, to either draw, or re-holster, with an SS III/070, was a beech.

[Wheeler]

Sure. A subset of a subset but not never. Odds, stakes, all that.

Not to mention job related duties versus personal safety goals. :)

[BehindBlueI's]

Not to mention job related duties versus personal safety goals. :)

I don't know that I think it's a relevant distinction here. I wasn't holstering to go chase somebody, which is probably by far the most common "speed holster" by police. Now I was in the position I was in because I'm the police and had actively searched for this guy, but he was mentally ill, high on meth, and had an assortment of weapons driving around and apparently attempting to provoke a road rage incident. He came to police attention before he got a confrontation with anyone else, but it's not much of a stretch to say anyone here could be confronted by a mentally ill knife wielding suspect about as easily as they could be confronted by a mugger, etc.

It's not a police specific concern.

Someone threatens you with a knife but not at a distance that he's a lethal threat yet. You draw. He drops the knife but charges you. There's no disparity of force issue. He's one guy, he's your size or smaller, his hands are obviously empty. His arms are spread out for a tackle. What do you do?

You shoot a pitbull that bit you while you were jogging. The owner, a skinny crackhead burglar that you whip the shit out of one handed, comes charging out of the yard yelling threats at you for killing his dog. He's closing on you, you've got a gun in your hand. What do you do? Been there, too, and not as an identified police officer. (In that one, he stopped when told to and no use of force was required against him, but if he'd been high at the time?

In the vast, vast majority of instances you can slowly and safely look the gun back into the holster. You won't be operating in an adrenaline dump. You'll never need to transition from lethal force and that mind set to non lethal and that mindset. You'll either shoot or the threat will leave. I get all that. I also get that every now and then someone, badge or no, has the situation like I did. Usually from a known person for citizens (lots of knife violence is between acquaintances, but not always domestic. Neighbors, etc). I'm not saying you need to always speed holster. I'm saying for a carry gun and carry set up you should have that as an option.

[Wheeler]

I don't know that I think it's a relevant distinction here. I wasn't holstering to go chase somebody, which is probably by far the most common "speed holster" by police. Now I was in the position I was in because I'm the police and had actively searched for this guy, but he was mentally ill, high on meth, and had an assortment of weapons driving around and apparently attempting to provoke a road rage incident. He came to police attention before he got a confrontation with anyone else, but it's not much of a stretch to say anyone here could be confronted by a mentally ill knife wielding suspect about as easily as they could be confronted by a mugger, etc.

It's not a police specific concern.

Someone threatens you with a knife but not at a distance that he's a lethal threat yet. You draw. He drops the knife but charges you. There's no disparity of force issue. He's one guy, he's your size or smaller, his hands are obviously empty. His arms are spread out for a tackle. What do you do?

You shoot a pitbull that bit you while you were jogging. The owner, a skinny crackhead burglar that you whip the shit out of one handed, comes charging out of the yard yelling threats at you for killing his dog. He's closing on you, you've got a gun in your hand. What do you do? Been there, too, and not as an identified police officer. (In that one, he stopped when told to and no use of force was required against him, but if he'd been high at the time?

In the vast, vast majority of instances you can slowly and safely look the gun back into the holster. You won't be operating in an adrenaline dump. You'll never need to transition from lethal force and that mind set to non lethal and that mindset. You'll either shoot or the threat will leave. I get all that. I also get that every now and then someone, badge or no, has the situation like I did. Usually from a known person for citizens (lots of knife violence is between acquaintances, but not always domestic. Neighbors, etc). I'm not saying you need to always speed holster. I'm saying for a carry gun and carry set up you should have that as an option.

The hypotheticals you quoted are possible but statistically unlikely. If I'm doing my thing correctly then I'm avoiding issues like that, because it's not my job to confront them head on, unlike a cop.

Regardless of whichever hypothetical scenarios we discuss the need for private citizens to 'speed holster' is so far removed from being a likelihood that the skill is really not important. Broken down further, the possibility of needing to present a firearm in a defensive encounter is pretty low, needing to speed holster and go hands on is virtually non existent for those of us who don't chase bad guys for a living. Practicing viable skills such as Criminal Interview Failure and Conflict Avoidance would be time better spent.

[BehindBlueI's]

The hypotheticals you quoted are possible but statistically unlikely. If I'm doing my thing correctly then I'm avoiding issues like that, because it's not my job to confront them head on, unlike a cop.

Regardless of whichever hypothetical scenarios we discuss the need for private citizens to 'speed holster' is so far removed from being a likelihood that the skill is really not important. Broken down further, the possibility of needing to present a firearm in a defensive encounter is pretty low, needing to speed holster and go hands on is virtually non existent for those of us who don't chase bad guys for a living. Practicing viable skills such as Criminal Interview Failure and Conflict Avoidance would be time better spent.

Nobody made the argument you should work on this to the exclusion of MUC, etc.

The pit bull incident happened to me as a private citizen. Just jogging in a neighborhood. Felt like a relevant skill at the time. Never said it's a high likelihood, just that it happens.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

The hypotheticals you quoted are possible but statistically unlikely. If I'm doing my thing correctly then I'm avoiding issues like that, because it's not my job to confront them head on, unlike a cop.

Regardless of whichever hypothetical scenarios we discuss the need for private citizens to 'speed holster' is so far removed from being a likelihood that the skill is really not important. Broken down further, the possibility of needing to present a firearm in a defensive encounter is pretty low, needing to speed holster and go hands on is virtually non existent for those of us who don't chase bad guys for a living. Practicing viable skills such as Criminal Interview Failure and Conflict Avoidance would be time better spent.

I have been following this thread and it is most interesting. I appreciate the passion with which people are participating. It is an important issue.

My personal experience is also varied. In the military, my M16 or other weapons were always on hand for use. In police work I had had less reasons to draw or reholster than I have in private use.

In private use as a regular citizen I have found where a charging large pitbull runs out of leash just before she gets there. Now, you're standing there with a weapon in your hand. I have had where someone has come on the property and appeared to be dangerous and had to point a weapon toward that person to challenge them. More assessment of the situation found that it would be better to use a bat or other weapon less lethal to deal with this person who was not sober. There have been other numerous instances, unfortunately as well.
The citizen should also be concerned that once he has fired his weapon that he must quickly administer first aid and call it in. He also does not want to be standing around with a weapon in his hand when others come and assess.
Being able to come from concealment, do your tasks with the weapon and then get it back into concealment very quickly have very good strategies for your own protection and the protection of others.

To rule out that one job or another will require one thing or another is not what I have experienced in life. IMHO

I carry a PX4 Storm 45 G and always reholster with my thumb behind, not on top of, the hammer.

[Wheeler]

Nobody made the argument you should work on this to the exclusion of MUC, etc.

The pit bull incident happened to me as a private citizen. Just jogging in a neighborhood. Felt like a relevant skill at the time. Never said it's a high likelihood, just that it happens.

Potentiality is not the same as probability, your hypothetical turned anecdotal example not withstanding.