1911's and Berettas

[MGW]

I have a dumb question that has been stuck in my head for a long time. Maybe this is the wrong forum to ask this question but I thought it would get more response here than in the General forum.

Why does it seem like so many 1911 people also like Berettas? On the surface, they seem about as different as can be. I have a lot of rounds through both and I don't see anything that would make me think that they are compatible. What am I missing?

[ranger]

They are both old designs?

[LockedBreech]

I think they're actually pretty similar, at least compared to most mainline polymer guns (Glock, M&P, P320).

Metal slide, metal frame. Good heavy weight and long sight radius making recoil light and manageable. Nicely tuned hammer triggers which provide better feedback than striker triggers, generally.

Both with military pedigree. Both highly reliable for long periods of service.

Both in tons of TV and movies in the hands of countless heroes fictional and real.

Both undeniably cool looking with deep heritage to old companies.

Definitely the same species of gun, aside from the caliber.

[45dotACP]

Good question.

For me it is because Berettas are incredibly accurate, they respond really well to custom work and they have a hammer for those who are inclined to carry AIWB and like to block the hammer when reholstering

They actually carry a little easier than a 1911 for me and I like the safety net the DA first shot affords me.

I'd have no problem with a CZ or a Sig though. I like the TDA system because it is more forgiving of me snatching the first shot when I draw and the DA first trigger press is really not that big of a deal if you dry fire.


TL;DR
It's probably really because we just hate those newfangled striker fired guns

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[Medusa]

They honestly don’t seem all that similar to me except in the broad sense of all metal hammer fired with a history as U.S. service weapon. I’ve never really been tempted by 1911s precisely because of the differences even though i understand why they’re loved and I certainly see the aesthetic appeal.

[farscott]

I can only speak for my reasons why I like and use both 1911 and Beretta 92/M9 pistols.

1) Both designs were used by the War Department/Department of Defense of fed.gov and have robust supply chains as well as ever growing alternate part suppliers.
2) The pistols, magazines, parts, and accessories are everywhere, because of 1).
3) Both pistols are classic metal-framed designs.
4) Both designs are supported by world-class gunsmiths, including Bill Wilson, Ernest Langdon, and David Sams.
5) Both designs can result in very durable, very accurate firearms.
6) Both are very cool and fun to shoot.

[ccmdfd]

Don't forget that both have been in a ton of movies and TV shows.

[UNM1136]

^^^^this.

Plus, based on their popularity, they were some of the earliest guns I shot, and loved, and vicariosly loved through the accounts of others...

ETA: I meant farscott, but Doc ain't wrong...

pat

[rd62]

Don't forget that both have been in a ton of movies and TV shows.

I think this has more to do with it than a lot of folks may care to admit. I know they were both the weapons of several of my favorite characters.

[JTQ]

Metal frame, hammer fired, in most cases an actual safety, and military history.

Since they have replaceable grip panels, you can also doll them up with a simple and usually inexpensive grip swap.

[Robinson]

I'm a 1911 user and I like Berettas. In fact I've gone down the Beretta 92 road a couple different times, but never stayed with it. My busted up thumb has a real hard time manipulating the safety/decocker. I might be able to get by with a G model, but I haven't put in sufficient time with one to tell.

Overall, I prefer guns with hammers for carry even though there are striker fired guns I like and respect.

[Trooper224]

Because the cool kids like similar things.

[RevolverRob]

Because plastic is for toys...:rolleyes:

ACTUALLY - I think the one thing that the Beretta and 1911 share is a similar size and natural 'pointability'. Though the grip on the Beretta is larger, when I pick one up, it isn't any bigger, to me, than a 1911. Physically, 5" barreled pistols give a great balance of shootability, concealability, and about the maximum power effect you can get from a gun.

While more compact guns conceal better, I haven't find a compact size gun that shoots quite as well as a 1911 or Beretta 92. Some are very close, though, close enough it doesn't much matter.

[SecondsCount]

Things changed over the years because I remember a lot of hate for the Beretta when the 1911 was replaced. Slowly it became more popular.

The Beretta 92 and 1911 pistols have style, blued steel and wood grips. Glocks are fugly and overrated ;)

[JHC]

They honestly don’t seem all that similar to me except in the broad sense of all metal hammer fired with a history as U.S. service weapon. I’ve never really been tempted by 1911s precisely because of the differences even though i understand why they’re loved and I certainly see the aesthetic appeal.

I don't see much commonality at all. OTOH I find Glocks and 1911s to play well together. I use pretty much the exact same grips (high thumbs) and a single trigger pull type.

[Gumby]

For me it's usage. Military and law enforcement experience, 92, px4, LBCC.

[Darth_Uno]

There was a new 1911 vs Glock thread on 1911forum every. single. day. Which turned into 9 vs 45 every. single. time. Now that 9mm is no longer a social foe paw, the OG 1911 guys still can't bring themselves to go for a plastic frame.

That, and Berettas used to get a ton of hate...right up until they got ditched for the 320 and became the Golden Guns of Yesteryear.

[Austin Millbarge]

I find that it’s mostly older guys. Maybe because we grew up with 1911’s and Berettas being much more common, as compared to younger guys that have been “raised” on Glocks and other striker guns.


When I go to a class I’m usually the only guy there with a Beretta, the exception being a Langdon class, but that’s not a surprise.

[757_Magnum]

I guess the question is why does someone have to be married to a single trigger style or platform at the exclusion of others? I have consolidated to Glocks for all the advantages the platform brings, and the trigger doesn't bother me at all, but I sometimes miss a sweet DA/SA trigger previously coming from a Sig with SRT. I recently decided that I want a 1911 and a Beretta in order to maintain familiarity with the different actions (you know, for battlefield pick ups :p). They will also be a good teaching aid for helping newbies make an educated choice.

[JAH 3rd]

Good reasons all. Got me thinking what makes a firearm popular. Don’t forget what “Dirty Harry” did for the 44 magnum, the model 29.

[BillSWPA]

Both guns need to be shot to be fully appreciated. When they are shot, it becomes apparent that both are a joy to shoot and make accurate shooting easy.

I never cared much for either until I tried them.

I bought my 1911 during the Clinton ban, when I was limited to 10 round magazines. 8 rounds of .45 in a thin format made sense. I also noticed that 1911's were second only to Glocks in popularity at IDPA matches, and more popular than everything else combined. It took me only 3-4 draws from a holster to get used to the safety, and ever since no gun has ever made fast, accurate hits so easy.

I tried a couple of Breettas - a 92F and an Elite II - by renting them at a range. Both had the only DA/SA triggers I have ever liked. When I was looking for a pistol for my wife, they were among a very small number of guns that she shot easily and well, although in SA only.

[MGW]

I love 1911’s. Nothing gives me more joy or confidence than running a good one. I’m still searching for the 9mm double stack equivalent of that. An STI wasn’t it. I keep thinking that maybe I missed something and Berettas really are the missing link.

[45dotACP]

I love 1911’s. Nothing gives me more joy or confidence than running a good one. I’m still searching for the 9mm double stack equivalent of that. An STI wasn’t it. I keep thinking that maybe I missed something and Berettas really are the missing link.I won't lie and say the LTT 92 is the 1911 9mm you were looking for, but I do think it's certainly the closest to having a tuned race gun that you can confidently and responsibly carry for your CCW.

For me that is. Maybe someone else carries a Shadow 2 IWB

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[RevolverRob]

Yea, the 9mm, double-stack, 1911 remains elusive. The closest thing out there right now is the Shadow2. But...one day in the not too distant future (we hope) the DWX and DWX Compact will be out. And maybe those will prove to be the guns we’re all looking for.

I like the Beretta 92 and the LTT is a nice gun. But it isn’t a 1911, for sure. It’s something unique on its own. A 1911 is American comfort food, a good burger and fries. The Beretta is good Italian food. It’s amazing and awesome, and you can enjoy it, but it isn’t a burger and fries.

The Sig P320 is just McDonalds...

[10mmfanboy]

I actually traded a 1911 today for a 92x compact lol. I never got to a high enough level of confidence operating a 1911 to carry one. So my new epiphany today is I'm clearing out all pistols I'm not going to ever carry. That is the whole point to a pistol for me, ammo cost too much these days to waste on shooting and training with something I won't carry. Both are excellent examples of tried and true designs.

[YVK]

Because both, when correctly set up, will shoot the shit out of it as long as their owners don't stand in the way.

[FNFAN]

I love 1911’s. Nothing gives me more joy or confidence than running a good one. I’m still searching for the 9mm double stack equivalent of that. An STI wasn’t it. I keep thinking that maybe I missed something and Berettas really are the missing link.

If you haven't tried one of the Wilson EDC X9's you owe it to yourself to try it, if for no other reason than to say, "that's not it either." I shot one last fall at the 1911addicts shoot and when I put it down, I told the owner, "Thanks! that just cost me a couple grand." Accurate, reliable, carries well. I thoroughly enjoy it.

[03RN]

I dont know but I do:cool:

[Bucky]

Other than the obvious, the safety, the controls, feel, and point ability are very similar. The slide stop and magazine release feel and act quite similar. Before the wave of GLOCK copies you had Sig, with its awkward high bore axis and stupid slide stop placement. HK had its paddle release, GLOCK it’s different grip angle. As for Smith, let’s say their TDA line didn’t share anywhere near the love they do now they’re no longer made.

[MistWolf]

The 1911 is my favorite pistol and I've been shooting one for many years. I do not like the Beretta. Too big for a 9mm, trigger reset is too long and I don't care for a DA/SA trigger. The pistol that's taken over EDC duty from my 1911 is the Walther PPQ 9mm. I really like shooting the PPQ.

[MGW]

If you haven't tried one of the Wilson EDC X9's you owe it to yourself to try it, if for no other reason than to say, "that's not it either." I shot one last fall at the 1911addicts shoot and when I put it down, I told the owner, "Thanks! that just cost me a couple grand." Accurate, reliable, carries well. I thoroughly enjoy it.

I came very close to trading into an X9 recently. I like that they use a fairly standard double stack magazine design. The thought of buying two scares me though.

[tgoldie00]

I love both platforms and have several examples of each in my collection. Overall I like the 1911 aesthetic and aftermarket support more....but of course 1911 is a design concept, not a brand like Beretta is. However...as we all know...the past few years have seen Beretta partner with some of the most respected names in the firearms arena and have produced factory pistols that rival semi-customs at prices that can be considered reasonable to aficionados and collectors alike.
Mute renewed attention to the 92 platform is likely my favorite resurgence as of late. A 92FS was my very first pistol right when I turned 21 (yr 1999) and I have always gravitated to the platform ever since.

Time-tested action, reliable design, military heritage, broad aftermarket support. Beretta 92 and the 1911 platform use the above facets to remain relevant in a very oversaturated pistol market.

[Joe in PNG]

To use another analogy, '66 Shelby GT 350 or Porsche '73 911 RS.

And I'm forced to use a German car, as no Italian car has the same dependability.

[MGW]

To use another analogy, '66 Shelby GT 350 or Porsche '73 911 RS.

And I'm forced to use a German car, as no Italian car has the same dependability.

I love classic Mustangs.

[ccmdfd]

Both guns need to be shot to be fully appreciated. When they are shot, it becomes apparent that both are a joy to shoot and make accurate shooting easy.



This.

From a pure shooting standpoint, not considering easy of carrying, reliability, and on and on; there is nothing like them.

9mm and metal framed double stack guns just hit a sweet spot. It's difficult to describe, but it's there. For me that's the 92 and classic SIGs. Others feel the same for CZ and 3rd generation SWs. For 1911 style guns, the sweet spot for me is 38 Super and 9X23. 45 gives my arthritis a pain.

Now what do I carry mostly? Glocks. 1911 grip safeties give me grief when in under pressure situations, and the 92 and 226 are difficult to conceal.

But for plinking in the backyard or on the range, it's one of the guns i listed above, or .22s.
cc

[45dotACP]

I feel like not enough people give credit to the value of a first shot being double action.

I have been doing pretty decent with a 1911 lately, but the dreaded trigger snatch still visits me from time to time and the DA trigger gives me some kind of buffer zone between "my finger is on the trigger" and "Bang".

Some striker fired guns are like that as well I suppose, but none of them are as cool as my Langdon 92 [emoji41]

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[Dave T]

I'm an outlier on two counts. As a 30+ year carrier of various 1911s (45 ACP of course) I've never liked or been drawn to the Beretta. I only gave up the 1911 due to pretty severe arthritis in my hands. The frame of the Colt pounds the swollen base knuckle of my strong hand with every shot. My alternative was the various 45 ACP Glocks (G21, G30, G36, and G41). Never liked DA/SA guns of any design.

Now in my dotage, broken and weak as I am, I find myself turning to the revolvers of my youth. The manual of arms is easier for these old joints. Revolvers still do what they've done for over a century and a half, by making bad guys want to be somewhere else. Besides, I can't stay on my feet long enough to empty all the double stack magazines some of you tactical types carry. (LOL)

Dave

[Gary1911A1]

The 1911 is my favorite service pistol of all time as I can shoot one faster and more accurate than any other pistol I have tried. I just finished another 1911 Build Class and will likely take it again next year. While I like my Sig 226 and 228 they have the Browning recoil system like the 1911 of moving back slightly and down which I feel increases perceived recoil. The Beretta recoils more straight back and feel softer to me. Maybe a slight difference, but every bit helps.

[SW CQB 45]

yall might think this is off

but too many in my area carry the 1911 that do it for looks as they cannot back up their abilities with anything, much less with 1911. I want to stay sharp with it.

I like the platform but my hand does not fit it perfectly but I deal with it. I was told to pick a platform by a co-worker (1911, LTT and G19).... so I did.

I have been driving this guy hard. In fact, ran 400 trouble free rounds teaching an academy class this week. A co-worker was watching me closely looking for a failure. He told me was surprised.

Another reason I am packing .45..... we just transition to 9mm and we have an abundance of .45..... so I cant just let it rot away HA!

https://i.imgur.com/fiuwi1Kh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/THQIsjih.jpg

oh, I have this one ready to go when we run out of .45 HAHAHAA

https://i.imgur.com/MgR2YX8h.jpg

[OlongJohnson]

To use another analogy, '66 Shelby GT 350 or Porsche '73 911 RS.

And I'm forced to use a German car, as no Italian car has the same dependability.

Embrace the healing power of both.

[spence]

I'll be the outlier here. I flipping love the 92. I'm also a millennial. I have come to terms with that reality, but that just means I don't fit the "old guy" crowd. Since my mom taught me "hate" is a really strong word, I'll use "despise" instead. I despise 1911's. They are just not my bag, or ever have been, and won't be. I do own one, though it's a doublestack and borders on too much width. I like it about as much as a Glock, which I also own and don't particularly care for, either.

Why the heck do I like the 92 so much? Because I'm a moron. I don't like being "normal" and that whole running two triggers was a new challenge to master, so I got bit by the bug. Add in all the work LTT has done to make the 92 great for a new generation, and I can do a lot of custom work to a bone stock $500 pistol and have an absolute great shooter. Add in the fact that mags can be had insanely cheap. I never imagined I'd accumulate so much gear for a gun/system, but I am officially invested to the point that to switch would be a freaking expensive venture. I just dumped my 92 compact in favor of all full size grips guns for that very reason, as well. What am I replacing it with? Building myself a frankengun, just because I can (more because I found the frame first before a complete pistol, and I do want a Vertec slide but don't like the Vertec grip).

The list goes on. I've also racked up more rounds through 92 series pistols than I imagined I would or could, again in a fairly short period of time. They're just great pistols.

[Bucky]

I'll be the outlier here. I flipping love the 92. I'm also a millennial. I have come to terms with that reality, but that just means I don't fit the "old guy" crowd. Since my mom taught me "hate" is a really strong word, I'll use "despise" instead. I despise 1911's. They are just not my bag, or ever have been, and won't be. I do own one, though it's a doublestack and borders on too much width. I like it about as much as a Glock, which I also own and don't particularly care for, either.

Why the heck do I like the 92 so much? Because I'm a moron. I don't like being "normal" and that whole running two triggers was a new challenge to master, so I got bit by the bug. Add in all the work LTT has done to make the 92 great for a new generation, and I can do a lot of custom work to a bone stock $500 pistol and have an absolute great shooter. Add in the fact that mags can be had insanely cheap. I never imagined I'd accumulate so much gear for a gun/system, but I am officially invested to the point that to switch would be a freaking expensive venture. I just dumped my 92 compact in favor of all full size grips guns for that very reason, as well. What am I replacing it with? Building myself a frankengun, just because I can (more because I found the frame first before a complete pistol, and I do want a Vertec slide but don't like the Vertec grip).

The list goes on. I've also racked up more rounds through 92 series pistols than I imagined I would or could, again in a fairly short period of time. They're just great pistols.

Nothing wrong with any of this. I personal have an inner conflict being I love 1911s, but don’t currently see a place for them for carry or defense work.

Side note, despise is actually a stronger version of hate.



"Despise" is a stronger word than "hate". ... In other words, when you hate someone, you dislike the individual intensely, but when you "despise" him, you not only dislike him, but you also look down on him. So, when you despise someone, you consider him being beneath you; you may think that the individual is worthless.

[Joe in PNG]

Embrace the healing power of both.

I have.

[MGW]

I’ve been experimenting over the last couple range sessions shooting a 1911 and 43x back to back. It actually works really well. The little 43x feels very easy to control with factory rounds after shooting 45 for awhile. I don’t currently own a 9mm 1911. Shot a Nighthawk back to back with the 43x yesterday and that’s a good combo too. I’m enjoying shooting the 43x more than full-size Glocks right now.

I think I’m going to keep focusing on that. I’ll play games with the 1911, pick up a 9mm 1911 to cut down on wear on my hands and elbows, and carry a 43x full time. Add a couple Shield magazines and see how good I can get with the little Glock.

I was ready to jump on a new Core Smith 2.0 as a 9mm 1911 substitute but I still have doubts about their accuracy. I watching Duke closely to see how it shakes out long term for him.

[Fordtough25]

I love both 1911's and Beretta's as well, both are fun to shoot, accurate, reliable pistols in my experience. I don't carry my 92 much but sometimes I will around the farm, I do however carry a full size government model often. I find that between that and my glock 48 everyday carry is a breeze and I am confident with both.

[Poconnor]

Because plastic is for toys...:rolleyes:

ACTUALLY - I think the one thing that the Beretta and 1911 share is a similar size and natural 'pointability'. Though the grip on the Beretta is larger, when I pick one up, it isn't any bigger, to me, than a 1911. Physically, 5" barreled pistols give a great balance of shootability, concealability, and about the maximum power effect you can get from a gun.

While more compact guns conceal better, I haven't find a compact size gun that shoots quite as well as a 1911 or Beretta 92. Some are very close, though, close enough it doesn't much matter.

Ding Ding Ding!!!! Winner

[Deaf Smith]

I have a dumb question that has been stuck in my head for a long time. Maybe this is the wrong forum to ask this question but I thought it would get more response here than in the General forum.

Why does it seem like so many 1911 people also like Berettas? On the surface, they seem about as different as can be. I have a lot of rounds through both and I don't see anything that would make me think that they are compatible. What am I missing?

I detest the Beretta M9/92. And I am a 1911 man (own several.) Any gun that has the slide break in half in at least 14 cases and any gun that has to have it's locking blocks replaced ever 5k rounds JUST STINKS.

[MGW]

I detest the Beretta M9/92. And I am a 1911 man (own several.) Any gun that has the slide break in half in at least 14 cases and any gun that has to have it's locking blocks replaced ever 5k rounds JUST STINKS.

Nice try but no.

[Robinson]

I detest the Beretta M9/92. And I am a 1911 man (own several.) Any gun that has the slide break in half in at least 14 cases and any gun that has to have it's locking blocks replaced ever 5k rounds JUST STINKS.

A locking block will typically go a lot further than 5K rounds without issue. The slides don't often break, but I have heard of them developing cracks on rare occasions. But with some good, inexpensive preventive maintenance a 92 series should last a long time without needing a major part replaced.

Taking a critical view of a pistol is all well and good, but your generalization may not paint a totally accurate or complete picture.

[spinmove_]

A locking block will typically go a lot further than 5K rounds without issue. The slides don't often break, but I have heard of them developing cracks on rare occasions. But with some good, inexpensive preventive maintenance a 92 series should last a long time without needing a major part replaced.

Taking a critical view of a pistol is all well and good, but your generalization may not paint a totally accurate or complete picture.

It’s recommended that the locking blocks be replaced at 10,000 rounds, although they can sometimes go 20,000 rounds or more before finally giving out. Recoil springs generally need to be replaced at 3,000 rounds. Given this is the typical interval 1911s go and they’re so inexpensive, it’s pretty cheap insurance.

Everything breaks, but if you take proper care of it, it’ll last you a lot longer than what Pvt. Schmuckatelli’s M9 lasted in the Army after he didn’t change the springs, change the locking block, gave it crap magazines, and didn’t lube it ever.

[Trooper224]

I detest the Beretta M9/92. And I am a 1911 man (own several.) Any gun that has the slide break in half in at least 14 cases and any gun that has to have it's locking blocks replaced ever 5k rounds JUST STINKS.

Ever seen a 1911 slide or frame crack? I have. Ever seen one break the lower barrel lugs? I have. Ever seen a broken barrel bushing tie up a 1911? I have. Ever seen a plunger tube fall off? I have. But hey, 'murica bro!

Replacing locking blocks every 5k rounds? Now you're pulling shit out of your ass.

[Deaf Smith]

A locking block will typically go a lot further than 5K rounds without issue. The slides don't often break, but I have heard of them developing cracks on rare occasions. But with some good, inexpensive preventive maintenance a 92 series should last a long time without needing a major part replaced.

Taking a critical view of a pistol is all well and good, but your generalization may not paint a totally accurate or complete picture.

Yet did the government ever recommend a general side replacement for 1911s after x number of rounds? Locking blocks?

Kind of like the M16 series... you have to replace the bolt after so many rounds... pitiful.

And yes I have two ARs.. I really like them but unlike Milspec, the bolts are made of better materials (I read Sweeny's books on the AR!)

And go read "Problems Surrounding the Army's 9--mm Handgun Procurement", easy to google. Government hearings on the procurement in 1988. The M9 is well featured on around page 56.

You can also read https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/armys-old-beretta-m9-just-how-good-it-62687

[Nephrology]

Yet did the government ever recommend a general side replacement for 1911s after x number of rounds? Locking blocks?

Kind of like the M16 series... you have to replace the bolt after so many rounds... pitiful.

And yes I have two ARs.. I really like them but unlike Milspec, the bolts are made of better materials (I read Sweeny's books on the AR!)

And go read "Problems Surrounding the Army's 9--mm Handgun Procurement", easy to google. Government hearings on the procurement in 1988. The M9 is well featured on around page 56.

You can also read https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/armys-old-beretta-m9-just-how-good-it-62687

By any chance, do you only carry a .45 because they don't make a .46?

[Caballoflaco]

Yet did the government ever recommend a general side replacement for 1911s after x number of rounds? Locking blocks?

Kind of like the M16 series... you have to replace the bolt after so many rounds... pitiful.

And yes I have two ARs.. I really like them but unlike Milspec, the bolts are made of better materials (I read Sweeny's books on the AR!)

And go read "Problems Surrounding the Army's 9--mm Handgun Procurement", easy to google. Government hearings on the procurement in 1988. The M9 is well featured on around page 56.

You can also read https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/armys-old-beretta-m9-just-how-good-it-62687

Find this guy. 55697 ask him if he will give you a ride in his time machine back to 2020.

Passing on thirty year old information like it’s relevant today does a disservice to people who visit this board to learn accurate and up to date information.

[Bucky]

Ever seen a 1911 slide or frame crack?

My first 1911 has a cracked slide and frame, both fix / welded and it runs just fine. Steel FTW!

I've also seen Glock, HK, and Sig slides crack. Do this long enough and you see stuff.
:o

[Caballoflaco]

Ever seen a 1911 slide or frame crack? I have. Ever seen one break the lower barrel lugs? I have. Ever seen a broken barrel bushing tie up a 1911? I have. Ever seen a plunger tube fall off? I have. But hey, 'murica bro!

Replacing locking blocks every 5k rounds? Now you're pulling shit out of your ass.

My favorite personal 1911 failure was a plunger tube that came partially unstaked and locked the safety in the safe position right at start buzzer during a match.

[Trooper224]

My favorite personal 1911 failure was a plunger tube that came partially unstaked and locked the safety in the safe position right at start buzzer during a match.

That's not a problem bro, that's a safety "feature". :)

It was obviously an induction of operator malfeasance introduced into the performance matrix. I mean, Alvin York didn't have a plunger tube problem when he took on the Bosch with God's Gun. I didn't see loose plunger tubes anywhere in Sands of Iwo Jima. Tom Hanks probably laughed at the thought of a plunger tube when he took out that Tiger Tank in Saving Private Ryan. Whereas, I have no doubt Bruce Willis repeatedly thought, "I'm glad this piece of Italian sex doesn't have a plunger tube." in Die Hard.

[Deaf Smith]

By any chance, do you only carry a .45 because they don't make a .46?

Mostly I carry a Glock 26 when I do worry about printing. But I do pack a Kimber Classic Stainless (as I today.) Yes It's a .45. Kimber Mark 1 series. I like it's accuracy, it shoots like a rifle, and it's reliability.

I grew up with S&W K frames and Colt O frames. Was, and still am, a Bill Jordan and Jeff Cooper fan. Used 1911s and P-35s in IPSC for something like 20 years and then when IDPA came along I used Glocks.

Never replaced a slide with any Glock, 1911, or P-35 and I shot them so much. Over 100,000 rounds with the Glock 17 and about that with a P-35.

Now I've had 1911s have problems. But that is far more because so many makers, good and bad, and so many aftermarket parts, good and bad. Thus I tent to stay with true 1911 configurations (but the Colt firing pin lock system actually works very well in my experience, the Kimber system, MK II versions, not so much.)

The M9 was a poor choice but we had a deal where the other NATO countries bought are AR system and we bought there M92 9mm system.

Funny thing is that locking block problem was well known. Same problem in the 1951 Brigadier.

[spinmove_]

Mostly I carry a Glock 26 when I do worry about printing. But I do pack a Kimber Classic Stainless (as I today.) Yes It's a .45. Kimber Mark 1 series. I like it's accuracy, it shoots like a rifle, and it's reliability.

I grew up with S&W K frames and Colt O frames. Was, and still am, a Bill Jordan and Jeff Cooper fan. Used 1911s and P-35s in IPSC for something like 20 years and then when IDPA came along I used Glocks.

Never replaced a slide with any Glock, 1911, or P-35 and I shot them so much. Over 100,000 rounds with the Glock 17 and about that with a P-35.

Now I've had 1911s have problems. But that is far more because so many makers, good and bad, and so many aftermarket parts, good and bad. Thus I tent to stay with true 1911 configurations (but the Colt firing pin lock system actually works very well in my experience, the Kimber system, MK II versions, not so much.)

The M9 was a poor choice but we had a deal where the other NATO countries bought are AR system and we bought there M92 9mm system.

Funny thing is that locking block problem was well known. Same problem in the 1951 Brigadier.

Lots of guns have early teething issues that later get rectified. The 92 series’ issue happened to be the locking block among a couple other goofs that were resolved DECADES ago. Was it perfect? No, but what gun is? But it was far from a poor choice.

[Caballoflaco]

The M9 was a poor choice but we had a deal where the other NATO countries bought are AR system and we bought there M92 9mm system

What NATO member countries bought the “AR system”, besides Canada producing their own licensed copies?

[Trooper224]

Mostly I carry a Glock 26 when I do worry about printing. But I do pack a Kimber Classic Stainless (as I today.) Yes It's a .45. Kimber Mark 1 series. I like it's accuracy, it shoots like a rifle, and it's reliability.

I grew up with S&W K frames and Colt O frames. Was, and still am, a Bill Jordan and Jeff Cooper fan. Used 1911s and P-35s in IPSC for something like 20 years and then when IDPA came along I used Glocks.

Never replaced a slide with any Glock, 1911, or P-35 and I shot them so much. Over 100,000 rounds with the Glock 17 and about that with a P-35.

Now I've had 1911s have problems. But that is far more because so many makers, good and bad, and so many aftermarket parts, good and bad. Thus I tent to stay with true 1911 configurations (but the Colt firing pin lock system actually works very well in my experience, the Kimber system, MK II versions, not so much.)

The M9 was a poor choice but we had a deal where the other NATO countries bought are AR system and we bought there M92 9mm system.

Funny thing is that locking block problem was well known. Same problem in the 1951 Brigadier.

I bet you wear a ball cap and amber aviator shades 24/7 too.

Rather than parroting the bronze age information we all know already, which you'd know if you'd been here longer than Wednesday, what is your personal experience with the Beretta 92? Not what you've heard or read, or absorbed while worshiping at the alter of El Padron, but what you've personally experienced. See it's like this, here at P-F we value opinions based on personal experience and knowledge. We're also pretty unmerciful to shit pulled out of your ass.

Speaking of which........................

I'd like to hear where you got the information about a 92's locking block needing replacement every 5k rounds. Please don't mention some 35 year old Big Green report, this is 2020 so climb back in that DeLorean and get it up to 88 miles per hour. The fact you think a Kimber's a good pistol and you claim to have 100,000 rounds through a Browning High Power without failure is not helping your credibility.

[19852+]

I have thousands of trouble free rounds from several different Beretta 92's, one a 92f the rest have been 92fs. I never worried about eating Italian steel even with the 92f. Currently I have one 92fs compact that hasn't gotten much use. In the past I had a Springfield 9mm 1911 that had a cracked slide which Springfield fixed. Also an STI single stack that had a loose plunger tube, STI fixed that.
Whatever the machine it must be maintained and repaired when necessary, especially if one's life may depend on it. I have as bomb proof a car as one can get in the form of a Toyota FJ Cruiser yet it isn't a zero maintenance truck...

[Steven T]

I own and like both. The M9 slide cracking was due to ammo issues. The loads being fired were nearly proof load level. There were also reports of Sig frames also being cracked by that ammo. I imagine it's probable that some high round count Beretta's have fractured slides or chewed up locking blocks, but then again sheared barrel lugs aren't uncommon on high round count 1911's. I have also seen a few cracked 1911 slides.

[Robinson]

Tom Hanks probably laughed at the thought of a plunger tube when he took out that Tiger Tank in Saving Private Ryan.

You mean the P-51 shown pulling out of its dive after the Tiger blew up was just added insurance? See, I knew that 45 slug did the job.

Back to the discussion -- I haven't had many parts failures at all with my 1911s, but that's probably because most of them have less than 20K rounds through them. The ones that do get shot a lot have inspections and spring changes at reasonable intervals. Still I did have one cracked barrel bushing on a heavily used Commander.

[Stephanie B]

Find this guy. 55697 ask him if he will give you a ride in his time machine back to 2020.

Passing on thirty year old information like it’s relevant today does a disservice to people who visit this board to learn accurate and up to date information.

Hell, stay there, buy a buttload of AOL stock, then sell it and buy some of those new start-ups: Google and Amazon.

But yes, referencing information from the 1980s about firearms reliability and ammo performance is amateur.

[03RN]

Im sure this wont change any opinions but the broken slides were directly related to a bad batch of steel.

The locking block can break but is no different than any other wear part on a gun. Replacing recoil springs is not a flaw or a mark of a bad gun. Same with locking blocks. Same with plunger tubes needing to be restaked.

Or changing the oil in you car. Saying your car was a bad choice because you have to keep putting gas or oil makes about as much sense.

[03RN]

I bet you wear a ball cap and amber aviator shades 24/7 too.


If i didn't wear glassess id definitely wear aviator shades. A ball cap 24/7 is already a given.

[JSGlock34]

55704

[MGW]

This definitely didn't go the direction I thought it would.

[Nephrology]

55704

I'm hopeful that our normally insightful forum members will be able to right this thread and get it back on the original topic as described by the OP, as lots of people here seem to like both 1911s and Berettas.

My taste in handguns is far more coarse and plebian so unfortunately I cannot be helpful here. The only hammer-fired handguns I have are a pair of post war S&W service revolvers, which I mostly own to karmically balance all of the Glocks in the safe next to them....

[Hambo]

I'd like to hear where you got the information about a 92's locking block needing replacement every 5k rounds.

Me, too. That means I should have changed the locking block in my Brig ten times by now. Something is definitely wrong with my pistol.

[Steven T]

Im sure this wont change any opinions but the broken slides were directly related to a bad batch of steel.


03RN I think this came up in the Beretta 92 love thread. I believe someone posted this video in that thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOB4HvWSpAM&t=679s
As I recall Beretta received compensation from the Government over perceived loss of reputation over the whole affair. But thats been a while back. He covers that in the video, although in the "information age" who knows how accurate it is.


edit-Tried to get the video the start at beginning but cant seem to pull it off.

[JSGlock34]

I'm hopeful that our normally insightful forum members will be able to right this thread and get it back on the original topic as described by the OP, as lots of people here seem to like both 1911s and Berettas.

I'll count myself among the Pizza Gun enthusiasts and 1911 aficionados on this site, as those pistols are the only ones occupying space in my safe without a Glock roll mark. I didn't start out that way though - my formative experiences with the Beretta 92 were with military issue M9 pistols. Unlike the sleek sexy perfect black Bruniton hardware from Lethal Weapon and Die Hard, every M9 I encountered looked like it had been dragged to the range behind the deuce and a half. And no one I encountered in uniform knew how to shoot it, the DA trigger press was never properly instructed, and everyone cocked the hammer before commencing fire. No one knew how to carry it either - there were a shocking number of M9s carried in Condition Three because that's how the M1911 was routinely carried. Since the Army qualification of the day was laughably easy, it was still routine to qualify as 'Expert'. The Army's lack of interest in maintaining the M9 and purchasing high quality replacement parts was lost to me at that junior grade. We all generally agreed that the M9 was clearly awarded to the lowest bidder, which was why elite units with a choice chose to carry something else.

The 1911 had that allure, and still does, despite the fact that everyone but Force Reconnaissance has moved on to something else. And if you grew up reading Guns & Ammo, you knew that the 1911 was the chosen firearm of those "in the know", while the M9 and its 9mm brethren were dismissed as "Crunchentickers". But the 1911 never seemed as accessible - you needed to get a good 'base gun' and send it to the right custom gunsmith. And it was an expensive proposition - it was many years before the 1911 was available "off-the-shelf" with all the features we take for granted today (like good sights and the ability to feed hollow point ammunition). But as a "Student of the Pistol", the 1911 stood out as a stop I would have to make on my journey.

I resolved that I'd eventually get into 1911s, but most of the time I shot Glocks. It's a Glock world, what can you do?

I did eventually get a 1911, starting with a S&W 1911 when they were first introduced. From there I went through a number of 1911s over the years, learning a great deal about the design and how to run it. And my choice in 1911s generally changed as my income level adjusted; I started with fairly base guns, some with light customization, until I finally settled on a fantastic Wilson Combat two-tone. 1911s have their quirks for sure, and you learn a lot by sampling different ones. But man, I get it.. When they are built right, they are amazing guns.

In 2013 I found myself in a shooting funk. I was bored. A local gun store had a commercial M9 on the wall. I had trained with Ernest Langdon and Todd Green - I knew guys who could run a Beretta well. Perhaps some nostalgia for those old beat up Army guns got a grip on me. I bought it. And I opened up the DA/SA chapter of "Student of the Pistol" and went deep for a few years, learning how to run a Beretta 92 and run it well. Fortunately I picked the right time, as Beretta 92 enthusiasm seemed to be picking up again, and I had the opportunity to purchase one of the first Brigadier Tacticals from Wilson Combat and take it to one of Ernest's classes. I ran a 92 as a primary for several years, much to the consternation of friends who knew me as the Glock 34 guy. Now I'm one of those guys who has an opinion about weird Beretta variants like the 90-TWO and 92 Combat. Pizza Guns are awesome.

So the service pistol lineage was definitely a factor for me. But these are also the iconic Single Action, DA/SA, Striker Fired designs - all major experiences as a "Student of the Pistol".

And now I'm back to Glocks. Why? Took my prized 1911 to an instructor class late last year. And even though I was the top shot in the class, my groups didn't look good to me. At first I chalked it up to competitive nerves, but that wasn't it. I finally acknowledged that I was having trouble seeing the sights and targets. I switched to an optics gun and suddenly I was back.

So I'm on a different "Student of the Pistol" chapter - red dots...I sampled this chapter a few times in the past, but never stayed with it. Well, this really is the year of the red dot for me, like it or not. It's about the journey I guess. I'm still learning.

[LittleLebowski]

Yet did the government ever recommend a general side replacement for 1911s after x number of rounds? Locking blocks?



Force Recon had to deploy with two 1911s per operator in order to keep one gun running. My good friend Robert Blanton (https://www.stripes.com/news/marine-gets-silver-star-for-actions-during-iraq-firefight-1.86909) can tell you of their 1911s going down all of the time.

And now onto another debunking of your claims.

[LittleLebowski]

And go read "Problems Surrounding the Army's 9--mm Handgun Procurement", easy to google. Government hearings on the procurement in 1988. The M9 is well featured on around page 56.

You can also read https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/armys-old-beretta-m9-just-how-good-it-62687

LangdonTactical

[Half Moon]

I'll count myself among the Pizza Gun enthusiasts and 1911 aficionados on this site, as those pistols are the only ones occupying space in my safe without a Glock roll mark. I didn't start out that way though - my formative experiences with the Beretta 92 were with military issue M9 pistols. Unlike the sleek sexy perfect black Bruniton hardware from Lethal Weapon and Die Hard, every M9 I encountered looked like it had been dragged to the range behind the deuce and a half. And no one I encountered in uniform knew how to shoot it, the DA trigger press was never properly instructed, and everyone cocked the hammer before commencing fire. No one knew how to carry it either - there were a shocking number of M9s carried in Condition Three because that's how the M1911 was routinely carried. Since the Army qualification of the day was laughably easy, it was still routine to qualify as 'Expert'. The Army's lack of interest in maintaining the M9 and purchasing high quality replacement parts was lost to me at that junior grade. We all generally agreed that the M9 was clearly awarded to the lowest bidder, which was why elite units with a choice chose to carry something else.

The Navy's 1911's weren't much better when I was in. Last arsenal rebuild sometime circa the Korean War, worn springs, worn bushings, yada. It was obvious the Gunners Mates weren't putting a lot into maintaining them. Never seen so many feed cycle issues with any handgun before or since. Every qualification was a clinic in failure clearance drills. No design can stand up to a constant cycle of neglect and abuse. I grew up shooting my dad's 1911 and Model 10. If I hadn't prior experience to know they shouldn't be that way I would never trust a 1911 after what I saw in the service.

[Trooper224]

The biggest thing that burns me up about this thread is that no one has appreciated my use of Haleyspeak in post #57.

I have a sad.

https://i.imgflip.com/1azhf6.jpg

[JSGlock34]

The Navy's 1911's weren't much better when I was in. Last arsenal rebuild sometime circa the Korean War, worn springs, worn bushings, yada. It was obvious the Gunners Mates weren't putting a lot into maintaining them. Never seen so many feed cycle issues with any handgun before or since. Every qualification was a clinic in failure clearance drills. No design can stand up to a constant cycle of neglect and abuse. I grew up shooting my dad's 1911 and Model 10. If I hadn't prior experience to know they shouldn't be that way I would never trust a 1911 after what I saw in the service.

I think the typical M9 service experience did much to malign an otherwise excellent design among a wide swath of veterans. That said, as much as I enjoy shooting a highly tuned 92, they're no longer service pistols either. My 92s with light hammer springs and tuned triggers are fantastic shooters, but they can be quite finicky about ammunition. I think we also need to remember that despite the romance surrounding the 1911, very few carried one with a Springfield Armory Custom Shop rollmark. Your experience was more the norm I suspect.

[Joe in PNG]

It's interesting that the all the post WWII servicemen that came home, went into law enforcement, and bought revolvers...well, that's maybe a bit of a simplification.
But, despite all the men with military experience, the auto never really took off as either a common law enforcement or civilian carry gun until the Glock arrived on our shores, outside of Col. Cooper's relatively small coterie of devoted 1911 fans.

[TheNewbie]

Force Recon had to deploy with two 1911s per operator in order to keep one gun running. My good friend Robert Blanton (https://www.stripes.com/news/marine-gets-silver-star-for-actions-during-iraq-firefight-1.86909) can tell you of their 1911s going down all of the time.

And now onto another debunking of your claims.


I would like to hear more about this.

[Trooper224]

It's interesting that the all the post WWII servicemen that came home, went into law enforcement, and bought revolvers...well, that's maybe a bit of a simplification.
But, despite all the men with military experience, the auto never really took off as either a common law enforcement or civilian carry gun until the Glock arrived on our shores, outside of Col. Cooper's relatively small coterie of devoted 1911 fans.

You're giving Glock too much credit. Guns like the Sig P Series, Beretta 90 series and the S&W 2nd and 3rd gen pistols are what proved the concept of the semi-auto pistol in law enforcement, not the Glock. Most of those vets who became cops didn't choose revolvers, they were mandated.

[JSGlock34]

Huh. And I thought it was Miami Vice that prompted the change to semi-automatic pistols in US law enforcement.

[SW CQB 45]

when I started.... this is what we were issued and no questions asked, dont ask to change grips or carry speedloaders. We loaded from loops and we could not sway from policy.

https://i.imgur.com/ZG8IVbJh.jpg

When we transitioned to semi auto in 92 and 93, I recall a Captain had tested Sig 220, G21 and I believe SW4500. Low bid won. The Captain wanted .45 acp.

1911s were forbidden as they were labeled dangerous by Admin.

in 2008, I was asked to re-write policy and add the 1911 to the list of approved weapons for duty carry.

Finally....

https://i.imgur.com/wSs6Ytuh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/c913Pv3h.jpg

[MGW]

Thank you JSGlock34 Great post.

[Shorikid]

when I started.... this is what we were issued and no questions asked, dont ask to change grips or carry speedloaders. We loaded from loops and we could not sway from policy.

https://i.imgur.com/ZG8IVbJh.jpg

When we transitioned to semi auto in 92 and 93, I recall a Captain had tested Sig 220, G21 and I believe SW4500. Low bid won. The Captain wanted .45 acp.

1911s were forbidden as they were labeled dangerous by Admin.

in 2008, I was asked to re-write policy and add the 1911 to the list of approved weapons for duty carry.

Finally....

https://i.imgur.com/wSs6Ytuh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/c913Pv3h.jpgWhat you say about revolvers tracks what I remember as a kid around cops. Revolvers were issued, if you were in a buy your own department, only guys with cash could afford autos, if they were allowed.

And man you have some big mitts! I see those picks and feel like a Hobbit. That 92 looks like a compact. And I know it isn't.

I am more a 1911 guy. On a cross country road trip with the family I'm hauling around an all steel government model AIWB. I trust it more, the sights fall in line well off the draw and the trigger is good, if not great on my best up Springfield. I have a new to me Beretta M9A1 Compact that I haven't had time to vet. I grew up shooting a model 96 of my dad's and scrapping up the cash to buy an auto ordinance, or to give my dad the money to pick up.

Both of those guns have good triggers, seem to have more soul than most other guns and they just feel familiar when I pick one up.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Doc_Glock]

I can definitely see the connection between the 1911 and B92.

Can someone please direct me to the Glock and HK plastic people popper club?

[Fordtough25]

I shot one of my 1911's side by side last night with my 92, and a friends navy P226. I liked them all of course but shot the 45 the best and enjoyed it the most, followed by the 92.

[gato naranja]

Why does it seem like so many 1911 people also like Berettas? On the surface, they seem about as different as can be. I have a lot of rounds through both and I don't see anything that would make me think that they are compatible. What am I missing?

I would agree with the idea that it is partly because they are both usually encountered as relatively long-barreled, full-size handguns with grip sizes/shapes that work for a lot of people and generate recoil that isn't excruciating for the average shooter. Back when I was able to shoot a lot of vet bring-backs on a regular basis, I preferred the Hi-Powers and Radoms over the "Lugers" and P38s because the latter seemed too muzzle-light. The Astra 600s were just not my cup of tea although I thought they looked cool, and the 1911 was a bit much to plink with all afternoon. All good things come to an end and so did my happily popping away with those warbirds. I couldn't afford a new commercial Hi-Power, and the Radom had become a collectible for guys with better incomes than me.

Unfortunately, the 9mm 1911 in those days had a poor reputation for reliability and was usually short and light, so I steered clear of them in subsequent years, and I simply never cared for Berettas old or new. A lot of handguns - looking back, kind of an embarrassing number - came and went, and when they went, they mostly went unlamented... after 40+ years I can count on one hand the handguns I genuinely still regret selling.

Now I am old and paunchy, with derped eyes and a growing dislike of unnecessary drama in my life. So what do I prefer to shoot for fun and recreation now? Government-size 1911s in 9mm. I actually shoot Beretta 92s even better than I do the 1911s, but my hand is wrong for them unless they have the "Vertec" grip. They may not be alike procedurally but they are both pleasant to live with, generally dependable and they get the job done. In guns as well as a spouse, those are attributes I appreciate more as time passes.

[MGW]

Had a long conversation with my gunsmith yesterday. After that conversation I’m considering selling two 1911’s and investing in one higher end 1911. He pointed out during our conversation that the 1911 has mostly turned into a gamer gun for me. Without really thinking about it the 43x has become my EDC of choice. Switching back and forth between a 1911 and the 43x is seamless. I’m ready to invest in a few Shield 15 round magazines. I need to install sights on the spare 43x so I’ll have dedicated carry and training guns that match.

Langdon said this in a class and I agree with him. Trying to switch back and forth between a TDA and striker gun in asking for trouble. I think the same applies to TDA and SA.

[Rex G]

It's interesting that the all the post WWII servicemen that came home, went into law enforcement, and bought revolvers...well, that's maybe a bit of a simplification.
But, despite all the men with military experience, the auto never really took off as either a common law enforcement or civilian carry gun until the Glock arrived on our shores, outside of Col. Cooper's relatively small coterie of devoted 1911 fans.

This may be Texas-regional, but plenty of Texas Peace Officers, including Houston PD officers, carried 1911 duty pistols, from early in the 20th Century, and what the local lawmen like, the local private citizens tend to love, although Texas did not issue handgun carry licenses to private citizens until the early Nineties. Texas Rangers’ usual duty pistol seemed to be a fancied-up 1911, and they set the trends. Notably, it is normal for Texas peace officers to buy their own duty weapons, except for the state troopers.

Even among Texas LEOs who had to carry a specific wide-body duty pistol, in uniform, the 1911, especially the Commander-sized models, was a popular choice for personal-time carry.

Another auto popular among Texas peace officers, in the early Eighties, was the Browning BDA/SIG P220, usually .45 ACP, of course, because Texas. Some 9mm pistols were starting catch on, too, before Glock G17 became much of a factor.

My first handgun was a 1911, In late 1982 or very early 1983, following the local trend. (It was an off-brand, and never reliable enough to trust for carry.) I had to carry only DA revolvers, in the academy, and during my rookie year of sworn duty, 1984-1985. I became a big-bore Magnum revolver fan, and, had some trouble finding a reliable Commander-sized 1911, so did not actually use a 1911 for duty and personal carry until 1990, when my third or fourth Commander, a Colt Stainless, was finally found to be trustworthy. It started malfunctioning, a year later, prompting a switch to a P220.

[Gumby]

Langdon said this in a class and I agree with him. Trying to switch back and forth between a TDA and striker gun in asking for trouble. I think the same applies to TDA and SA.

This^^^^^^^^is why I carry a 92/px4 but my 1911's are for the range.

[Stephanie B]

The Navy's 1911's weren't much better when I was in. Last arsenal rebuild sometime circa the Korean War, worn springs, worn bushings, yada. It was obvious the Gunners Mates weren't putting a lot into maintaining them. Never seen so many feed cycle issues with any handgun before or since. Every qualification was a clinic in failure clearance drills. No design can stand up to a constant cycle of neglect and abuse. I grew up shooting my dad's 1911 and Model 10. If I hadn't prior experience to know they shouldn't be that way I would never trust a 1911 after what I saw in the service.

My experience was different. The ship's force 1911s never malf'd in any of the range sessions that I experienced, including some sessions as a range officer.

That was fun, because I was able to use some of the training ammo each time to shoot with. We were on a 50' police range, one sailor's grouping was more of a pattern. He said it was the gun. I put up a fresh silhouette target, rolled it back and put five rounds through its head. I brought the target back and asked: "Well?" He said that I could do that because "you know the gun." I just laughed.

Then the Navy limited acting as a RSO to gummer's mates, which ended that fun.

(To be fair, the first time I tried to qual with a 1911, I sucked. So I bought a Series 70 GM and practiced. The next time, I shot expert. Lost the gun in a divorce, lost the medal in a move.]

[Half Moon]

My experience was different. The ship's force 1911s never malf'd in any of the range sessions that I experienced, including some sessions as a range officer.

That was fun, because I was able to use some of the training ammo each time to shoot with. We were on a 50' police range, one sailor's grouping was more of a pattern. He said it was the gun. I put up a fresh silhouette target, rolled it back and put five rounds through its head. I brought the target back and asked: "Well?" He said that I could do that because "you know the gun." I just laughed.

Then the Navy limited acting as a RSO to gummer's mates, which ended that fun.

(To be fair, the first time I tried to qual with a 1911, I sucked. So I bought a Series 70 GM and practiced. The next time, I shot expert. Lost the gun in a divorce, lost the medal in a move.]

Interesting! Now I have to wonder if it was a time or ship's culture thing. Early 90's, destroyer, here.

[spinmove_]

Had a long conversation with my gunsmith yesterday. After that conversation I’m considering selling two 1911’s and investing in one higher end 1911. He pointed out during our conversation that the 1911 has mostly turned into a gamer gun for me. Without really thinking about it the 43x has become my EDC of choice. Switching back and forth between a 1911 and the 43x is seamless. I’m ready to invest in a few Shield 15 round magazines. I need to install sights on the spare 43x so I’ll have dedicated carry and training guns that match.

Langdon said this in a class and I agree with him. Trying to switch back and forth between a TDA and striker gun in asking for trouble. I think the same applies to TDA and SA.

I’m not sure I necessarily agree with that. When I put a Glock in my hand, I run it like a Glock. When I put a TDA in my hand, I instinctively run the decocker. When I put a J-frame in my hand, I’m rolling that DA trigger on every press. Lots of people around here run 1911s and J-frames and Berettas and Glocks with various combinations thereof. Maybe some can’t, but I don’t think it’s a hard and fast rule.

[alohadoug]

For me, my background is Military. Not high-speed/low-drag, I was an intel pog at a Strategic MI unit. We had 175 M16a1s that were converted to A2 for 750 Soldiers. That was my intro to handguns when I qualified with the M9.
Since then I've tried the M1911, striker fired and revolvers. I keep coming back to the M9 and the 1911. Glocks just don't seem to fit as naturally. I always said if I was going to carry a Glock, I was only going to shoot Glocks. Anything else got in the way.

Stephanie - my wife tells the story of qualifying with the USMC during a joint exercise (Cobra Gold) and their 1911s rattling. She says one of them used to flick his wrist to the side hoping to put the insides into the same place with each shot...guess that proves what USMC stands for.

[Trooper224]

My experience was different. The ship's force 1911s never malf'd in any of the range sessions that I experienced, including some sessions as a range officer.

That was fun, because I was able to use some of the training ammo each time to shoot with. We were on a 50' police range, one sailor's grouping was more of a pattern. He said it was the gun. I put up a fresh silhouette target, rolled it back and put five rounds through its head. I brought the target back and asked: "Well?" He said that I could do that because "you know the gun." I just laughed.

Then the Navy limited acting as a RSO to gummer's mates, which ended that fun.

(To be fair, the first time I tried to qual with a 1911, I sucked. So I bought a Series 70 GM and practiced. The next time, I shot expert. Lost the gun in a divorce, lost the medal in a move.]

How reliable your small arms were depended entirely on how serious your command and the maintenance personnel were about it. It also helped to have a CO who loved to shoot stuff.

My oldest son served as a Master at Arms during his service. His first station was Suda Bay on the Isle of Crete. There, the MA contingent served as the base police force. Everyone was issued weapons individually and was responsible for them. He couldn't remember ever having a problem with anything, regardless of the weapon type. Then, he transferred to the Carl Vinson. The ship was in dry dock for overhaul and the security force was an adhoc affair. No one cared and there were constant reliability issues with nearly everything.

When I first checked onboard my ship, a frigate, we had a gunners mate assigned to small arms maintenance who was a slug, so of course nothing but problems. When a GM who wound up being a close friend checked on board he volunteered for small arms maintenance. No one else wanted it so everyone was happy. Although I was a Sonar Technician, I was allowed to assist when my own duties didn't collide. We performed a major overhaul of nearly everything, which drove the supply clerks insane. The last thing a supply clerk wants to do is issue anything out of inventory. You know, like do their job. Afterwards, those 1911s, that were at the minimum fifty years old, worked just fine. I used one of those old pistols to get my expert medal, which involved a bullseye type course of fire at the time and managed a perfect score. Guys would bitch about those old guns every time they failed to qualify. "If I had my XWZ blaster I'd clean it." No, because you suck. We had six 1911s out of the two dozen or so in inventory that were in the best shape. At one point I was assigned to a special detail that required a pistol, so I made sure I drew out one of those. As it turned out, that was a very fortunate occurence.

[Stephanie B]

At one point I was assigned to a special detail that required a pistol, so I made sure I drew out one of those. As it turned out, that was a very fortunate occurence.

OK, now you have to tell that story.

[Trooper224]

OK, now you have to tell that story.

Well.......

Let's jump in that DeLorean and get'er up to 88 miles per hour.

Let's say that, hypothetically, you're a young sonar technician in the mid to late 80's, you check aboard your command and find the ship is involved in the test and evaluation of experimental sonar and weapons systems. The Cold War is still a thing, but within a couple of years it won't be. But, for right now it's a thing and the massive Soviet submarine fleet is one of the Navy's biggest concerns. You decide you've had the greatest stroke of luck. This is some real Hunt for Red October stuff and you're in the middle of it. Then, you get put on a special project. This project involves super secret equipment and training with a SEAL squad and the CIA. Cool, cool, 'murica!

To do all this T&E work you have to go where there are Soviet submarines and , as it turns out, Soviets. Eventually, you find yourself just outside the wire of the Soviet sub base at Petropavlovsk, Siberia. Everything goes swimmingly well, until you're on the way back to the rubber boat and some of those aforementioned soviets show up. At that point, the "Cold" War gets a little "Hot" and shennanigans ensue. Everyone else has an automatic weapon of some sort. You wanted one too, but you're the twidget who's responsible for lugging around sixty pounds of super secret gear, so you're stuck with a pistol and twenty one rounds. It's February on the Siberian coast, so it's really dark, really snowing and cold as the balls on a brass monkey. There's a lot of screaming, shooting and running, lots of running. By some miracle, everyone gets away unscathed. Perhaps those ruskies weren't that motivated at chasing your through the cold after all and just wanted to go back to the barracks and drink vodka?

In the end, you left the ship with sixty pounds of super secret equipment, God's Gun and twenty one rounds of ammo. You come back aboard with sixty pounds of super secret equipment, God's Gun, no ammo and absolutely no idea if you hit anything. You wind up with a couple of ribbons on your chest that generate questions every time you stand an off command uniform inspection for the rest of your service.

Of course, I can neither confirm nor deny any of this actually happened. :)

[Stephanie B]

Well.......

Let's jump in that DeLorean and get'er up to 88 miles per hour.

Let's say that, hypothetically, you're a young sonar technician in the mid to late 80's, you check aboard your command and find the ship is involved in the test and evaluation of experimental sonar and weapons systems. The Cold War is still a thing, but within a couple of years it won't be. But, for right now it's a thing and the massive Soviet submarine fleet is one of the Navy's biggest concerns. You decide you've had the greatest stroke of luck. This is some real Hunt for Red October stuff and you're in the middle of it. Then, you get put on a special project. This project involves super secret equipment and training with a SEAL squad and the CIA. Cool, cool, 'murica!

To do all this T&E work you have to go where there are Soviet submarines and , as it turns out, Soviets. Eventually, you find yourself just outside the wire of the Soviet sub base at Petropavlovsk, Siberia. Everything goes swimmingly well, until you're on the way back to the rubber boat and some of those aforementioned soviets show up. At that point, the "Cold" War gets a little "Hot" and shennanigans ensue. Everyone else has an automatic weapon of some sort. You wanted one too, but you're the twidget who's responsible for lugging around sixty pounds of super secret gear, so you're stuck with a pistol and twenty one rounds. It's February on the Siberian coast, so it's really dark, really snowing and cold as the balls on a brass monkey. There's a lot of screaming, shooting and running, lots of running. By some miracle, everyone gets away unscathed. Perhaps those ruskies weren't that motivated at chasing your through the cold after all and just wanted to go back to the barracks and drink vodka?

In the end, you left the ship with sixty pounds of super secret equipment, God's Gun and twenty one rounds of ammo. You come back aboard with sixty pounds of super secret equipment, God's Gun, no ammo and absolutely no idea if you hit anything. You wind up with a couple of ribbons on your chest that generate questions every time you stand an off command uniform inspection for the rest of your service.

Of course, I can neither confirm nor deny any of this actually happened. :)

Don't know about any of that, but I was involved in different ASW games with the Soviets. According to the NDA that I signed, I can discuss that stuff around 2062. If I do before then, they have the right to try to kill me.

(Well, it didn't exactly say that, but the NDA was pretty specific that it did not limit the government's remedies to legal methods.)

[Trooper224]

Don't know about any of that, but I was involved in different ASW games with the Soviets. According to the NDA that I signed, I can discuss that stuff around 2062. If I do before then, they have the right to try to kill me.

(Well, it didn't exactly say that, but the NDA was pretty specific that it did not limit the government's remedies to legal methods.)

Fortunately, I didn't sign anything back then and since there are no more soviets I don't think I'm in any real danger. We were given the, "If things go sideways remember, no one's coming." speech and that was it. During my youngest sons deployment to the Gulf he did some work that required an NDA. I asked him, "So, they're assigning you work no one's supposed to know about and creating a paper trail linking you to that work?" "Yep." Brilliant.

About a year ago we had a case in the courthouse involving some russians. The entire time I walked around asking, "Where are the soviets?" I was told, "They aren't soviets anymore." Bullshit, they'll always be damned commies. :)

I miss the Cold War.

[LangdonTactical]

LangdonTactical

I have heard it all before, but I was also on active duty from 1985 to 1997..... so I have a little first-hand experience. I may have shot an M9 just a little bit, and I have a few thousand customers shooting guns with LTT Trigger work for ridiculous amounts of ammo.

Just wait till the articals come out about the M17 contract :) I am sure they will be filled with a few facts and lots of hearsay and opinions as well.

[Trooper224]

I have heard it all before, but I was also on active duty from 1985 to 1997..... so I have a little first-hand experience. I may have shot an M9 just a little bit, and I have a few thousand customers shooting guns with LTT Trigger work for ridiculous amounts of ammo.

Just wait till the articals come out about the M17 contract :) I am sure they will be filled with a few facts and lots of hearsay and opinions as well.

And servicemen will complain about it being a piece of junk, just like the M9, the 1911, the 1892 Colt, the Colt SAA..........

I think we all know the pattern.

[MGW]

We were supposed to get our M17’s a couple months ago but then Covid hit and it was delayed. I really want to get my hands on them to see what’s up.

[Stephanie B]

Interesting! Now I have to wonder if it was a time or ship's culture thing. Early 90's, destroyer, here.

I imagine it depended who was tasked with maintaining ship's force's guns. It depended on whether or not anyone in the chain of command gave a crap (LPO, division chief DivO, Dept. Head). If nobody cared, then the 2nd Division shitbird was the one to do (and gundeck) the PMS on the small arms.

[Half Moon]

I imagine it depended who was tasked with maintaining ship's force's guns. It depended on whether or not anyone in the chain of command gave a crap (LPO, division chief DivO, Dept. Head). If nobody cared, then the 2nd Division shitbird was the one to do (and gundeck) the PMS on the small arms.

On my ship everything else, small arms wise, seemed well maintained: rifles, shotguns, lineguns, boop guns... It was just the 1911's that were junked out. Then again the 1911's were the oldest and most regular use item (a lot more pistol quals than quals on anything else). If neglect was going to show anywhere it would probably be there first. I just always assumed it was service wide.

[Trooper224]

On my ship everything else, small arms wise, seemed well maintained: rifles, shotguns, lineguns, boop guns... It was just the 1911's that were junked out. Then again the 1911's were the oldest and most regular use item (a lot more pistol quals than quals on anything else). If neglect was going to show anywhere it would probably be there first. I just always assumed it was service wide.


Our biggest issues with our 1911s were magazines and recoil springs. Nearly half the mags is inventory had cracked feed lips. Not surprising, since the last time Uncle Sugar bought any was 1945. After nearly every pistol recieved a new spring and good mags the vast majority of issues disappeared.

[deputyG23]

I feel like not enough people give credit to the value of a first shot being double action.

I have been doing pretty decent with a 1911 lately, but the dreaded trigger snatch still visits me from time to time and the DA trigger gives me some kind of buffer zone between "my finger is on the trigger" and "Bang".

Some striker fired guns are like that as well I suppose, but none of them are as cool as my Langdon 92 [emoji41]

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Some folks simply do better with "long triggers". I am one of those. If I spent a lot of time with my 1911s, that would possibly change. That may occur once I retire, whenever that happens, and don't have to carry a Glock anymore.
My previously owned Beretta 92FC and SIG P228 gave me fits during DA/SA transitions, not for the DA first shot, but for the subsequent SA second shot. It would usually be a trigger snatch which was disastrous for accuracy. Maybe if I had put a "D" spring in the Beretta, it may have been easier to manage. A full size 92 with some enhancements could be workable but, again would probably have to wait for retirement in order to put the work in to become truly proficient with the type. The P228's trigger reset and slide stop placement was an issue for me. My son has it now and does OK with it.
My recently acquired HK45 seems to do better in that regard, but is a long grip, fore to aft, in my small hands. Shooting is not so much the issue, but reloading is. Reloading speed compared to my Glocks is abysmal due to the reach required to activate the paddle mag release. I have to rotate the gun considerably to the left in order to reach the paddle. It might go away soon at a loss.

[lwt16]

I detest the Beretta M9/92. And I am a 1911 man (own several.) Any gun that has the slide break in half in at least 14 cases and any gun that has to have it's locking blocks replaced ever 5k rounds JUST STINKS.

56066

56067

56068

Yep, total piece of crap. Look at that flyer at 25 yards!!

Regards.

Oops, almost forgot. I’ve broken more 1911s than 92s so there’s that.

[OlongJohnson]

Reloading speed compared to my Glocks is abysmal due to the reach required to activate the paddle mag release. I have to rotate the gun considerably to the left in order to reach the paddle. It might go away soon at a loss.

Try using the middle finger of your strong hand while keeping the trigger finger in index. It becomes pretty natural with my HKs.

[Bucky]

Try using the middle finger of your strong hand while keeping the trigger finger in index. It becomes pretty natural with my HKs.

I’ve found that method awkward. I use the trigger finger of the strong hand. YMMV.

[deputyG23]

I’ve found that method awkward. I use the trigger finger of the strong hand. YMMV.
Thanks to both of you. I will try each method this weekend.

[Wondering Beard]

Thanks to both of you. I will try each method this weekend.

Just be aware that when you use the trigger finger to activate the paddle, the movement of the finger takes it past and not far from the trigger. For some that works great but for others (like me) not so much. When I tried that method (I settled for using my thumb) with my L sized hand, I would often brush the trigger on the way to the paddle. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but if I used my middle finger (which I do when shooting with my "weak hand"), it came from under the paddle and came nowhere near the trigger.

I hope you find the method that works best for you.

[Boxy]

I first saw the Beretta 92 in the early 80s while being escorted to a beach in Naples Italy for pistols qualifications with 1911s while serving in the US Navy. The Carabinieri officer had to escort us to the range from the Naval Base. He offered our Weapons Officer his service weapon to shoot and for some reason he declined. Probably because he could not reciprocate the same with our weapons for regulations. I was ready and willing to give it a go myself but not really able to develop the opportunity. Since that time I was always intrigued with the 92 and I am a fan of 1911s. My interest in proficiency with pistols was cultivated with security duties in the Navy.

I just picked up Berettas the past 10 years but seem to run Glocks for carry and competition these days. I recently upgraded a 92A1 with LTT TJIB and am looking to run it a bit now.