Minneapolis PD Suspect Dies On Video While Handcuffed. FBI Investigating.

[Nightvisionary]

This doesn't look good. It appears the officer kneels on the guys neck until he dies and stays on his neck for a couple minutes after he goes unresponsive. Not sure if the FBI is investigating under Title 18 but this might end up making Ferguson look like a homecoming parade.



https://youtu.be/l6XAY0uKb2A

[blues]

This will not end well...for anyone.

[RevolverRob]

https://media.giphy.com/media/145hX7QVWqyili/giphy.gif

[PearTree]

All four officers have already been fired. This is not going to end well.


https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/black-man-dies-video-shows-officer-kneeling-neck-70879963

[LockedBreech]

And the underlying crime being investigated was forgery? Jesus.

[Lex Luthier]

The local facebook neighborhood pages (and the St Paul emergency scanner page, admin'd by a retired SPPD officer who would fit right in here) are going nuts.
It may be a long, hot summer.

[WobblyPossum]

This will not end well...for anyone.
I just watched the video. I agree completely.

[Totem Polar]

I agree that this is already not ending well.


From academia to medicine to media reporting to policing, to whatever; we have been nickel and dime’d by an overarching administrative class into some truly suboptimal outcomes on the ground. Not always, not even mostly, but the roosting chickens are definitely incoming.

[blues]

I get disgusted on a daily basis by the "white man bad" and "privilege" crap...which is not a one size fits all sort of thing whatsoever...but when shit like this happens, it's just beyond words. WTF? doesn't come close to expressing my anger and sense of outrage that anyone, let alone more than one individual, could allow this to happen on their watch.

[BehindBlueI's]

That's going to end up as a case study of what not to do.

[Lon]

Words fail me. I really hope the brass dotted all their i’s and crossed their t’s during this internal.

[Stephanie B]

Federal charges are on the table.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Regardless of the levels of resistance and intoxication, the nearly three minutes of him being limp & non-responsive without any effort to respond to & address that is going to be very difficult to explain.

From Cutting Edge Training, their commentary on the video:

According to the media reports, Minneapolis police officers encountered a black male adult sitting in his car who was suspected of being under the influence of a controlled substance. Officers attempted to arrest him and he reportedly physically resisted arrest. No force tools were used before taking him to the ground and handcuffing him. For approximately 8 minutes, an officer, hand in his pant's pocket, knelt on the subject's neck while the prisoner repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. An ambulance arrived, showing officers had earlier requested EMS response. By the time the gurney arrived, the subject was unresponsive. The officer removed his knee from the subject's neck, then roughly yanked and dragged him over to be put on the gurney. The suspect died in police custody.

Times have changed. It is past time to change with the times.

Without seeing the autopsy or toxicology report, all we can do is speculate as to the cause of death. What we can be pretty much assured about is the man was not "suffocated" by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck. The subject was able to repeatedly speak, therefore his trachea was not occluded.

Drugs plus physical exertion during an arrest often points to excited delirium and sudden death absent injuries pointing to a different conclusion. First described in 1849 by Dr. Luther Bell as "Bell's Mania," he observed, among other symptoms, "The course of the illness is from three to six weeks, with a fatal termination in a large percentage of cases, apparently from cardio-vascular failure due to overactivity."

While it is not likely this or other officers "killed" this man, was there a better way to address this arrest that might have better served the public interest?

In the 1970s and 80s, when the public's drug use changed, LE encountered sudden in-custody deaths. The deaths of suspects during forceful arrests were wrongly attributed during various phases to the carotid restraint, OC spray, TASERs, and positional asphyxia. Excited delirium, the latest understanding that began with Dr. Bell's description, is now understood by those who seek understanding of the cause of death of those who are mentally ill and/or under the influence of drugs who physically resist arrest beyond a body's physical limits and die, yet have no obvious cause of death at autopsy.

Like that seen in the death of Eric Garner in New York, this individual complained repeatedly that he couldn't breathe. In the past, officer were trained, "If he can talk, he can breathe." THAT IS NOT TRUE.

To breathe requires the body to perform two tasks, to breathe in and out deeply enough (inspiration and exhalation) to achieve sufficient gas exchange within the lungs to keep the body's cells supplied with oxygen to support life. Through very shallow breaths, humans can push enough air through their larynx (or voicebox) to speak without achieving even minimal gas exchange.

CURRENT DOCTRINE: If a subject says, "I can't breathe," interpret that to mean, "I'm dying." The individual may not have the mental capacity or capability to discern they are having a heart attack or respiratory failure. This is a medical emergency. If it is safe, radio for emergency medical response. If the subject is unrestrained and still physically resisting, quickly handcuff him/her. Then roll the subject into a either seated position or a rescue position (on his side). Monitor closely and prepare to initiate CPR.

As soon as a subject is cuffed, remove all body weight from the core of his torso and neck/head. The appearance of the Minneapolis officer who restrained the suspect in the video presented a very difficult to defend perceived of the continuing need to restrain the subject: the officer's hand was casually in his pocket for much of the video, his face was relaxed until bystanders appeared to be approaching too closely. This will be portrayed as callous, deliberate indifference to the man's life and safety. When facing a District Attorney investigator during a police-involved death investigation, and later a jury (criminal or civil), imagine the difficulty in convincing jurors that there was little effect on the outcome of the subject's death from body weight applied to their torso or neck. While that may be the fact, people want simple answers to complex problems. The public, jurors, district attorneys, US attorneys, and many police administrators often apply the belief that " the last one who touched the deceased likely killed him."

Body weight to any area of the body during an actively resisting arrest is necessary to control the subject to handcuff him. Following handcuffing, body weight should be immediately removed from the neck, spine (from top of the spine to mid-back) area of the subject. If he
continues struggling/kicking/biting, body weight can be applied to the periphery of his body and limbs: his upper arms, shoulders, and buttocks, lessening the appearance of interfering with his breathing. If he is slamming or grinding his head or face into the ground, protect him by cradling it in your hands.

The suggestions in this post are often seen, correctly, as preventing the appearance of misconduct and deliberate indifference than rather preventing actual misconduct. That is very true. And also immaterial to your continuing in your career or possibly avoiding criminal indictment. Those who protest that appearances should not dictate police methods have likely not been forced to defend their actions in a politically-charged environment where incendiary comments are readily believed by many who have been persuaded by emotion rather than by fact.

Change is tough. Change is constant. The results of failing to change is a cliche of history. Since the late 1990s, officers have been urged to put body weight on a resisting suspect only until the suspect is cuffed, and only peripherally if he remains violent or attempts to harm himself. These officers in Minneapolis, the one kneeling on the man's neck as well as the officer who failed to intervene and tell him to get off the suspect's neck, will like experience the effects of failing to change. They already are.

[TCB]

Eric, solid. I only watched a short bit of the video before coming to...oh boy, excited delirium, here we go again. A subject in cuffs who continues to fight / resist can be tough to deal with. That wasn’t a good way to do it. With a bunch of legal help, a bunch of expert witnesses these guys may have a chance of not going to jail, but their careers and lives as they know them will never recover.

[Hambo]

That's going to end up as a case study of what not to do.

Nothing stopping supervisors from using it right now. ;)

[Erick Gelhaus]

Nothing stopping supervisors from using it right now. ;)

Yeah, that could be training in briefing all by itself.

[TheRoland]

As a non-LEO it can be hard to take talk of excited delirium deaths seriously because it mostly seems to come up when police are doing something they probably shouldn’t be doing. It didn’t seem to prevent him from forging checks or whatever he was doing before kneeling on him.

[JHC]

Regardless of the levels of resistance and intoxication, the nearly three minutes of him being limp & non-responsive without any effort to respond to & address that is going to be very difficult to explain.

From Cutting Edge Training, their commentary on the video:

According to the media reports, Minneapolis police officers encountered a black male adult sitting in his car who was suspected of being under the influence of a controlled substance. Officers attempted to arrest him and he reportedly physically resisted arrest. No force tools were used before taking him to the ground and handcuffing him. For approximately 8 minutes, an officer, hand in his pant's pocket, knelt on the subject's neck while the prisoner repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. An ambulance arrived, showing officers had earlier requested EMS response. By the time the gurney arrived, the subject was unresponsive. The officer removed his knee from the subject's neck, then roughly yanked and dragged him over to be put on the gurney. The suspect died in police custody.

Times have changed. It is past time to change with the times.

Without seeing the autopsy or toxicology report, all we can do is speculate as to the cause of death. What we can be pretty much assured about is the man was not "suffocated" by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck. The subject was able to repeatedly speak, therefore his trachea was not occluded.

Drugs plus physical exertion during an arrest often points to excited delirium and sudden death absent injuries pointing to a different conclusion. First described in 1849 by Dr. Luther Bell as "Bell's Mania," he observed, among other symptoms, "The course of the illness is from three to six weeks, with a fatal termination in a large percentage of cases, apparently from cardio-vascular failure due to overactivity."

While it is not likely this or other officers "killed" this man, was there a better way to address this arrest that might have better served the public interest?

In the 1970s and 80s, when the public's drug use changed, LE encountered sudden in-custody deaths. The deaths of suspects during forceful arrests were wrongly attributed during various phases to the carotid restraint, OC spray, TASERs, and positional asphyxia. Excited delirium, the latest understanding that began with Dr. Bell's description, is now understood by those who seek understanding of the cause of death of those who are mentally ill and/or under the influence of drugs who physically resist arrest beyond a body's physical limits and die, yet have no obvious cause of death at autopsy.

Like that seen in the death of Eric Garner in New York, this individual complained repeatedly that he couldn't breathe. In the past, officer were trained, "If he can talk, he can breathe." THAT IS NOT TRUE.

To breathe requires the body to perform two tasks, to breathe in and out deeply enough (inspiration and exhalation) to achieve sufficient gas exchange within the lungs to keep the body's cells supplied with oxygen to support life. Through very shallow breaths, humans can push enough air through their larynx (or voicebox) to speak without achieving even minimal gas exchange.

CURRENT DOCTRINE: If a subject says, "I can't breathe," interpret that to mean, "I'm dying." The individual may not have the mental capacity or capability to discern they are having a heart attack or respiratory failure. This is a medical emergency. If it is safe, radio for emergency medical response. If the subject is unrestrained and still physically resisting, quickly handcuff him/her. Then roll the subject into a either seated position or a rescue position (on his side). Monitor closely and prepare to initiate CPR.

As soon as a subject is cuffed, remove all body weight from the core of his torso and neck/head. The appearance of the Minneapolis officer who restrained the suspect in the video presented a very difficult to defend perceived of the continuing need to restrain the subject: the officer's hand was casually in his pocket for much of the video, his face was relaxed until bystanders appeared to be approaching too closely. This will be portrayed as callous, deliberate indifference to the man's life and safety. When facing a District Attorney investigator during a police-involved death investigation, and later a jury (criminal or civil), imagine the difficulty in convincing jurors that there was little effect on the outcome of the subject's death from body weight applied to their torso or neck. While that may be the fact, people want simple answers to complex problems. The public, jurors, district attorneys, US attorneys, and many police administrators often apply the belief that " the last one who touched the deceased likely killed him."

Body weight to any area of the body during an actively resisting arrest is necessary to control the subject to handcuff him. Following handcuffing, body weight should be immediately removed from the neck, spine (from top of the spine to mid-back) area of the subject. If he
continues struggling/kicking/biting, body weight can be applied to the periphery of his body and limbs: his upper arms, shoulders, and buttocks, lessening the appearance of interfering with his breathing. If he is slamming or grinding his head or face into the ground, protect him by cradling it in your hands.

The suggestions in this post are often seen, correctly, as preventing the appearance of misconduct and deliberate indifference than rather preventing actual misconduct. That is very true. And also immaterial to your continuing in your career or possibly avoiding criminal indictment. Those who protest that appearances should not dictate police methods have likely not been forced to defend their actions in a politically-charged environment where incendiary comments are readily believed by many who have been persuaded by emotion rather than by fact.

Change is tough. Change is constant. The results of failing to change is a cliche of history. Since the late 1990s, officers have been urged to put body weight on a resisting suspect only until the suspect is cuffed, and only peripherally if he remains violent or attempts to harm himself. These officers in Minneapolis, the one kneeling on the man's neck as well as the officer who failed to intervene and tell him to get off the suspect's neck, will like experience the effects of failing to change. They already are.

Very informative for a non LE as myself. Follow up - could a blood choke for that length of time be fatal?

[BehindBlueI's]

Nothing stopping supervisors from using it right now. ;)

Well, other than not having roll calls because of the COVIDs...

I think our training and current GO's wouldn't make anything I have to say novel, though. Excited delirium has been a part of our initial and in-service training longer then I've been here. I had an in-custody death and am on tape telling the guy he can't lay on his stomach, he has to lay on his side or sit up. He later died in the jail wagon. City Legal sure was happy with me, apparently they were going to shell out some $250k until they heard the tape.

[TheRoland]

Well, other than not having roll calls because of the COVIDs...

I think our training and current GO's wouldn't make anything I have to say novel, though. Excited delirium has been a part of our initial and in-service training longer then I've been here. I had an in-custody death and am on tape telling the guy he can't lay on his stomach, he has to lay on his side or sit up. He later died in the jail wagon. City Legal sure was happy with me, apparently they were going to shell out some $250k until they heard the tape.

Interesting. The only time we hear about it as non-leo is when it's combined with, say, a blood choke or something else that seems pretty causal.

[Hambo]

Well, other than not having roll calls because of the COVIDs...

Sure, throw that in my face. From this and other discussions, it sounds like your department has squared away GOs.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Very informative for a non-LE as myself. Follow up - could a blood choke for that length of time be fatal?

What is a "Blood choke"?

If you're talking about collapsing the carotid arteries, performing a lateral vascular neck restraint ... Chuck Haggard is the SME on that ... if applied correctly, it should be effective in seconds, not minutes. If it's effective, you move to cuffing; if it isn't, like before the 30-second mark, either re-position your arm or try something else. That's not at all what was depicted in the video. The officer didn't appear to be doing anything along those lines.

[JHC]

What is a "Blood choke"?

If you're talking about collapsing the carotid arteries, performing a lateral vascular neck restraint ... Chuck Haggard is the SME on that ... if applied correctly, it should be effective in seconds, not minutes. If it's effective, you move to cuffing; if it isn't, like before the 30-second mark, either re-position your arm or try something else. That's not at all what was depicted in the video. The officer didn't appear to be doing anything along those lines.

Yes blood choke is what we called carotid sleeper chokes. Wind chokes on the trachea. I thought the knee in the vid might have put pressure on the carotids. Guess not. Been reading up on the delirium syndrome

[Erick Gelhaus]

Yes blood choke is what we called carotid sleeper chokes.

Calling it a choke implies that the airflow is cut off and its a prelude to strangulation. The carotid restraint, LVNR, etc only impacts blood flow. So, it isn't a choke. I get the common use aspect but this is one of those times where words have meaning in police use of force world. Far too many agencies have lost the ability to use the carotid restraint because of drama & flawed perceptions - misuse of language plays a part in that.

[Totem Polar]

Y’all know I’m not a cop, and not in my lane, so to speak. That said, I had a second row seat to watching a long-time career cop with a good work reputation lose both his job AND his freedom over an excited delirium death in custody. Hemmed the guy up big time; biiiiiig news in my neck of the woods. I know his attorney well enough to know that it was a tragedy on all sides, all around; no winners. The officer actually went to prison over excessive force charges not relating to the death, but no doubt things would have looked better if the subject hadn’t of died while in restraints lying on his stomach.

[BehindBlueI's]

As a non-LEO it can be hard to take talk of excited delirium deaths seriously because it mostly seems to come up when police are doing something they probably shouldn’t be doing. It didn’t seem to prevent him from forging checks or whatever he was doing before kneeling on him.

That's because it's what the media puts in front of you vs what they don't and how that alters your perception. If sumdood gets doped up, runs around naked, then locks himself in his car and dies all by himself it's just reported as an overdose death and the media doesn't report it because nobody gives a shit about overdoses. It's a statistic, not a story, unless his toddler was in the backseat or something. I've had sumdood down and out from fighting the air, or whatever his hallucinations were most likely, when I got there. Get police involvement, though, now it's controversial and sexy. Same as the heart-string-tugging little kid in the backseat. It gets eyeballs so it's news.

For Excited Delirium itself, how it was explained to me: In the same way adrenaline can let you overcome your body's natural resistance to self-injury by overtaxing your muscles (letting you exceed your normal strength but at the cost of damage to your muscles), certain drugs do the same thing. You overtax yourself through exertion to the point your muscles get too tired/damaged to keep going, your diaphragm stops, your heart stops, whatever. Ordinarily we pass out before we can do that much damage to ourselves. The drugs override that.

[LittleLebowski]

This seems like it was avoidable.

[Wise_A]

And the underlying crime being investigated was forgery? Jesus.

What he was being investigated for has absolutely nothing to do with his behavior leading up to being arrested, or the amount of violence he used in resisting. Maybe you're in a sheltered part of the country, but in the cities, it's pretty common for dumbshits to successfully escalate "hey, stop walking in the middle of the street, get on the sidewalk" up to resisting arrest and assault on an officer. They're not high, drunk, or crazy, they're just dumbshits.

BONUS ROUND FOR LE: Why are you walking in the middle of the street?

A: Because you want me to walk on the sidewalk, motherfucker!

[Chuck Haggard]

This seems like it was avoidable.

It very likely was.

[Chuck Haggard]

As a non-LEO it can be hard to take talk of excited delirium deaths seriously because it mostly seems to come up when police are doing something they probably shouldn’t be doing. It didn’t seem to prevent him from forging checks or whatever he was doing before kneeling on him.

Your comment is utter bullshit, and displays a complete lack of knowledge on this particular subject.


A very real issue with excited delirium is that the person's mental and physical status can change unbelievably fast.

[LittleLebowski]

Riots have already began.

[Lex Luthier]

Riots have already began.

Where are you hearing of them, LL?
Not seeing any indications locally in the western section of St Paul. Of course, the Tornado Sirens just sounded a few minutes ago, so 70 MPH+ winds might put the kibosh on street festivities.

[TGS]

What he was being investigated for has absolutely nothing to do with his behavior leading up to being arrested, or the amount of violence he used in resisting. Maybe you're in a sheltered part of the country, but...

I think you should tone it down a little and drop the hostility towards one of our resident prosecutors who probably didn't mean the statement in the way you're reacting to.

And, at the very least, LB is not only on the same team but also a respected forum member, and you should act accordingly by asking him to clarify before going off half-cocked.

[Lester Polfus]

I agree that what can be perceived as "minor calls" can often turn into something else. For example, I once almost shot a guy over what started as a "Barking Dog Complaint" call.

However...

I can't help but think there are squared away police trainers all over the country watching this video and yelling "What the fuck are you DOING?!" at the screen.

[LockedBreech]

What he was being investigated for has absolutely nothing to do with his behavior leading up to being arrested, or the amount of violence he used in resisting. Maybe you're in a sheltered part of the country, but in the cities, it's pretty common for dumbshits to successfully escalate "hey, stop walking in the middle of the street, get on the sidewalk" up to resisting arrest and assault on an officer. They're not high, drunk, or crazy, they're just dumbshits.

BONUS ROUND FOR LE: Why are you walking in the middle of the street?

A: Because you want me to walk on the sidewalk, motherfucker!

As a prosecutor of criminal offenses for a living, I am well aware.

Something can be an aggravating factor without it being decisive of wrongdoing/criminality. The fact that they weren't even investigating a violent offense that would have warranted any level of forceful initial response or preconceived use-of-force mindset is, in my opinion, further aggravating a complete clusterfuck of improper training. Your opinion may differ.

If you have any information that this particular individual escalated the encounter, feel free to share it. I was opining on this instance and these particular facts, not custody and control of defendants generally.

I am not especially a fan of "'Maybe you're in a sheltered part of the country" by the by. I've worked multiple murders of adults and children as well as many use of force events up to and including multiple officer involved shooting incidents. You can disagree without condescending. I am not offended, just a general pointer for civil discussion.

Edit: As a few other members pointed out I am decidedly team-LE, being a prosecutor and having a dad, brother, mom, and grandfather all in law enforcement. Incidents like this raise my hackles so hard precisely because they further poison the well when the public is already so inclined by an all-too-eager provocateur media to hate law enforcement.

[Lon]

I can't help but think there are squared away police trainers all over the country watching this video and yelling "What the fuck are you DOING?!" at the screen.

Were you eavesdropping on me?

[LittleLebowski]

Where are you hearing of them, LL?
Not seeing any indications locally in the western section of St Paul. Of course, the Tornado Sirens just sounded a few minutes ago, so 70 MPH+ winds might put the kibosh on street festivities.

https://m.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/27929



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAa5xb6JitI

[Lex Luthier]

Got it, thanks. Will be listening in.
(Tornado hasn't happened so far, thankfully.)

[LittleLebowski]

https://m.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/27929



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAa5xb6JitI

They’re attacking the police station. At least one police vehicle has been breached and weapons stolen.

[LockedBreech]

That got bad fast. Stay safe ladies and gentlemen.

[HCM]

What he was being investigated for has absolutely nothing to do with his behavior leading up to being arrested, or the amount of violence he used in resisting. Maybe you're in a sheltered part of the country, but in the cities, it's pretty common for dumbshits to successfully escalate "hey, stop walking in the middle of the street, get on the sidewalk" up to resisting arrest and assault on an officer. They're not high, drunk, or crazy, they're just dumbshits.

BONUS ROUND FOR LE: Why are you walking in the middle of the street?

A: Because you want me to walk on the sidewalk, motherfucker!


I think you should tone it down a little and drop the hostility towards one of our resident prosecutors who probably didn't mean the statement in the way you're reacting to.

And, at the very least, LB is not only on the same team but also a respected forum member, and you should act accordingly by asking him to clarify before going off half-cocked.

Wise_A

The basis for all modern case law in the U.S. relating to police use of force is the U.S Supreme Court decision in Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989).

If you want to speak about LE use of force in any meaningful way you need to be familiar with this case and it's application.

Graham was a United States Supreme Court case where the Court determined that an objective reasonableness standard should apply to law enforcement use of force in the course of making an arrest, investigatory stop, or other "seizure" of a person under the 4th Amendment.

The Court then outlined a non-exhaustive list of factors for determining when an officer's use of force is objectively reasonable, commonly known as "Graham factors" the first of these factors was "the severity of the crime at issue,"

So while any encounter can escalate, " What he was being investigated for" is material to the discussion.

[TCB]

Saying “blood choke” is like saying “shoulder thing that goes up”, it is just as uninformed and grating on the ears of people who know better...but I guess this is a general discussion area not a LE specific sun-forum. Erick and Chuck have both put down some very solid knowledge on the issues surrounding this UoF, understanding what they said would go a long way in helping make sense of this extremely tragic situation.

[LittleLebowski]

Saying “blood choke” is like saying “shoulder thing that goes up”, it is just as uninformed and grating on the ears of people who know better...but I guess this is a general discussion area not a LE specific sun-forum. Erick and Chuck have both put down some very solid knowledge on the issues surrounding this UoF, understanding what they said would go a long way in helping make sense of this extremely tragic situation.

The forum member that said “blood choke” meant no disrespect. He was asking in order to learn.

[TCB]

Understood, I wasn’t offended and am not mad, angry or outraged. Just pointing out some of the reason the comment may have been received the way it was.

[Erick Gelhaus]

The forum member that said “blood choke” meant no disrespect. He was asking in order to learn.

My take? One meant no disrespect and I think we had a positive conversation, the other has an agenda.

[LittleLebowski]

My take? One meant no disrespect and I think we had a positive conversation, the other has an agenda.

Yeah, I just saw JHC’s comment and I know him to be a good American.

[Wise_A]

I think you should tone it down a little and drop the hostility towards one of our resident prosecutors who probably didn't mean the statement in the way you're reacting to.

And, at the very least, LB is not only on the same team but also a respected forum member, and you should act accordingly by asking him to clarify before going off half-cocked.

I wouldn't say I'm being hostile at all. Certainly it was not my intention. I moved from a medium-ish city to what is, frankly, a sheltered part of the country. Plenty of LEOs up here raise the same objections whenever a case like this crops up--it's outside their experience. If they go to question someone over a nonviolent crime (like forgery, which is quite common in these parts), they can't conceive of a situation where that person shoves them back and tries to walk off. They deal with their share of violent crime, but to them, things follow a certain order.


The basis for all modern case law in the U.S. relating to police use of force is the U.S Supreme Court decision in Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989).

If you want to speak about LE use of force in any meaningful way you need to be familiar with this case and it's application.

Graham was a United States Supreme Court case where the Court determined that an objective reasonableness standard should apply to law enforcement use of force in the course of making an arrest, investigatory stop, or other "seizure" of a person under the 4th Amendment.

The Court then outlined a non-exhaustive list of factors for determining when an officer's use of force is objectively reasonable, commonly known as "Graham factors" the first of these factors was "the severity of the crime at issue,"

So while any encounter can escalate, " What he was being investigated for" is material to the discussion.

Yes. And what's missing is what occurred in between the dude being stopped, and the dude being on the ground. The video doesn't start at the beginning (like all good inflammatory videos), it starts in the middle or at the end.


If you have any information that this particular individual escalated the encounter, feel free to share it. I was opining on this instance and these particular facts, not custody and control of defendants generally.

I am not especially a fan of "'Maybe you're in a sheltered part of the country" by the by. I've worked multiple murders of adults and children as well as many use of force events up to and including multiple officer involved shooting incidents. You can disagree without condescending. I am not offended, just a general pointer for civil discussion.

Edit: As a few other members pointed out I am decidedly team-LE, being a prosecutor and having a dad, brother, mom, and grandfather all in law enforcement. Incidents like this raise my hackles so hard precisely because they further poison the well when the public is already so inclined by an all-too-eager provocateur media to hate law enforcement.

Sorry if I was interpreted as being condescending, but I was merely opining on the lack of facts. After an event that happened Monday evening, four officers have already been fired, which is pretty damn fast for any civil service termination I've ever seen. The autopsy report isn't even complete.

As for additional info:

*Call was a forgery in progress, with the suspect sitting on car, allegedly intoxicated
*Cops arrive, find him inside the car, tell him to get out
*Dude refuses, and then resists

And now Benjamin Crump is involved, which pretty much guarantees that this will be a shitshow. I think I already heard him describe this as a "lynching", which sure doesn't seem to do justice to actual lynchings.

Frankly, what aggravates me is the pervasiveness of video, and people's unquestioning faith in it. It's the worst form of information illiteracy. Which, to be clear, is not a dig on you, just a general observation whenever an anti-police video pops out.

[JDD]

Were you eavesdropping on me?

I watched it the same way I watch ISIS recruiting videos for safe weapons handling pointers. I am already imagining the next round of use of force training modules as some bright spark seeks to prevent this from happening again by mandating that LEO's provide individuals with stress cards prior to use of any hands on technique... Regardless of the fact that clearly, somewhere in the training process, what I was taught (and from the tone of this thread, more than a few others) and what was demonstrated in that video diverged widely.

[fixer]

Can someone explain why there was a need to kneel on the guy’s neck since he was already cuffed and on his stomach?

[Lester Polfus]

Can someone explain why there was a need to kneel on the guy’s neck since he was already cuffed and on his stomach?

Based on what I saw in the video? Not really. It's always good to let people explain their actions based on what they saw and perceived at the time, but some situations are certainly much harder to explain than others.

[WobblyPossum]

Can someone explain why there was a need to kneel on the guy’s neck since he was already cuffed and on his stomach?

I can’t think of an explanation that I’d consider reasonable. I’ve been through two police academies and was taught in both of them not to kneel directly on a subject’s neck or spine. I ESPECIALLY can’t think of a reasonable explanation for why the officer continued to kneel on the subject’s neck for several minutes after the subject appeared to lose consciousness and become unresponsive. Even if this turns out to be an excited delirium death that couldn’t have been avoided had the officers done everything right, the guy who kneeled on the subject’s neck sealed all their fates.

[BehindBlueI's]

Can someone explain why there was a need to kneel on the guy’s neck since he was already cuffed and on his stomach?

No, and that's the issue. Once he's under control he shouldn't be on his stomach. He should be on his side or sitting up. I was taught that as the "recovery position" way back 90's in EMT training, and repeatedly as a police officer. This is not new or cutting edge, it's well known.

This guy isn't still fighting. He doesn't need to be held down. He needs to be sat up. If he does need restrained, as noted up thread there are ways to do it that don't exacerbate excited delirium or positional asphyxiation.

[TCB]

The knee on the neck looks bad, probably is bad and is fairly unnecessary (from the limited information we can glean from the video) given the situation. But was probably (admittedly a WAG) not the cause of death and in a otherwise healthy person without any substances on board (not saying the decedent had anything in his system) would most likely result in a really jacked up neck and given the length of application a fairly solid basis for a complaint of excessive force.

I would put forth that being proned out while over exerting hisself with limited chest rise and fall not allowing for proper gas exchange (respiration) killed him. The knee on his neck didn’t help, and like all uses of force looks ugly.

[Zincwarrior]

Got it, thanks. Will be listening in.
(Tornado hasn't happened so far, thankfully.)

Be safe!

[Robert Mitchum]

………………….

[-ad-]

Coming from a very ignorant understanding (and i apologise for my ignorance in advance) - I am just wondering - if the officer kneeling on the suspects neck was a superior officer, what should have the other officers done in this scenario?

At what time is someone supposed to go against or pull up their superior officer, and how does someone go about doing that? Especially if the superior was unwilling to change their action or had just given the others a rip recently for not backing him? (I'm not saying that's the scenario - just trying to gain an understanding of how other junior police are supposed to respond in a situation like this)?

I am coming from an ignorant position - but from this ignorant position - it almost seems like you're damned if you do / damned if you don't if your a junior and your senior does something like this?

[TCB]

Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.

[smells like feet]

Coming from a very ignorant understanding (and i apologise for my ignorance in advance) - I am just wondering - if the officer kneeling on the suspects neck was a superior officer, what should have the other officers done in this scenario?

At what time is someone supposed to go against or pull up their superior officer, and how does someone go about doing that? Especially if the superior was unwilling to change their action or had just given the others a rip recently for not backing him? (I'm not saying that's the scenario - just trying to gain an understanding of how other junior police are supposed to respond in a situation like this)?

I am coming from an ignorant position - but from this ignorant position - it almost seems like you're damned if you do / damned if you don't if your a junior and your senior does something like this?

One of the other officers shoukd have gone up to him, patted him on the shoulder and quietly said something like " bro, he is done, you need to get off his neck because this looks really bad right now". Then you go into first aid/ SIDS procedure.

I have been the guy on both sides of that conversation and its never been a damned if you do issue, its just been one person seeing things a little bit clearer than the other.

[paherne]

I agree that what can be perceived as "minor calls" can often turn into something else. For example, I once almost shot a guy over what started as a "Barking Dog Complaint" call.

However...

I can't help but think there are squared away police trainers all over the country watching this video and yelling "What the fuck are you DOING?!" at the screen.

Dude, there are screwed up, case law misinterpreting, sacks of waste in a uniform, retired on duty, police instructors all over the country yelling, "What the fuck are you doing?!"

This reminds me of the Rodney King incident when I was getting started in the business. There's just no good way to explain this or justify it. The average taxpayer sees this and thinks, "The police just murdered that guy for no reason!" God Help Us All in the conflagration to come. I'm waiting for my gas mask order to go through so I can issue them to all personnel with the new helmets. I am far across the country from Minneapolis and have a feeling we are going to be sending Mobile Field Forces to nearby counties.

[RevolverRob]

Dude, there are screwed up, case law misinterpreting, sacks of waste in a uniform, retired on duty, police instructors all over the country yelling, "What the fuck are you doing?!"

This reminds me of the Rodney King incident when I was getting started in the business. There's just no good way to explain this or justify it. The average taxpayer sees this and thinks, "The police just murdered that guy for no reason!" God Help Us All in the conflagration to come. I'm waiting for my gas mask order to go through so I can issue them to all personnel with the new helmets. I am far across the country from Minneapolis and have a feeling we are going to be sending Mobile Field Forces to nearby counties.

Undoubtedly. Be safe.

Protests have already begun here in Chicago - https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crowd-gathers-outside-cpd-hq-to-protest-killing-of-george-floyd-treatment-of-black-and-brown-communities

[Coyotesfan97]

Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.

Dang TGS I was just about to type something very similar.

[HCM]

Can someone explain why there was a need to kneel on the guy’s neck since he was already cuffed and on his stomach?

In this case, I don’t see it. However, do not make the mistake of assuming “handcuffed” always equals “effectively restrained” Officers get head-butted, bitten, spit on and kicked by handcuffed suspects all the time. Like everything else, context dictates.

[HCM]

Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.

It doesn’t have to be altruistic either.

Sometimes doing this / putting the brakes on is part of taking care of your partner and yourself.

[JHC]

Saying “blood choke” is like saying “shoulder thing that goes up”, it is just as uninformed and grating on the ears of people who know better...but I guess this is a general discussion area not a LE specific sun-forum. Erick and Chuck have both put down some very solid knowledge on the issues surrounding this UoF, understanding what they said would go a long way in helping make sense of this extremely tragic situation.

OK I get it. I get why "clip" is aggravating too. My MA years were in the '90's and the LEO's in my school used that terminology as well.

"According to Dr. Charlie, the rear naked choke is a “so-called blood choke ([one of] those that impede blood flow from the heart to the brain),” as opposed to an “asphyxia choke (those that obstruct airflow, commonly by way of windpipe compression).”

https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/the-physiology-of-a-rear-naked-choke-or-what-happens-when-you-get-choked-out


or "This is a blood choke" - Rutten


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LppnEfRoFIM

[Hambo]

Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.

Every LEO has had an incident where another LEO has had to tell/make them chill out.


OK I get it. I get why "clip" is aggravating too. My MA years were in the '90's and the LEO's in my school used that terminology as well.


FWIW, I understood what you meant.

[ccmdfd]

This reminds me of the Rodney King incident when I was getting started in the business. There's just no good way to explain this or justify it. The average taxpayer sees this and thinks, "The police just murdered that guy for no reason!" God Help Us All in the conflagration to come. I'm waiting for my gas mask order to go through so I can issue them to all personnel with the new helmets. I am far across the country from Minneapolis and have a feeling we are going to be sending Mobile Field Forces to nearby counties.


If I remember correctly, and I certainly can be wrong, in the King case, news outlets only showed a small portion of the video, and of course it was the portion that looked the most damning to the officers. When the jury saw the entire video and heard further eyewitness testimony they felt the use of force was justified in that particular case.

[Warped Mindless]

This is going to be a hot summer (and I aint talking about the heat).

You have stuff like this...
Corona virus putting people on edge..
Media continuing to incite racial tension...
Election year which always divides people even more...
A bad economy...
And a lot of people out of work...

Plus I figure its about time for Iran to do something stupid again. Going to be interesting.

[Crawls]

Regardless of the levels of resistance and intoxication, the nearly three minutes of him being limp & non-responsive without any effort to respond to & address that is going to be very difficult to explain.

From Cutting Edge Training, their commentary on the video:

According to the media reports, Minneapolis police officers encountered a black male adult sitting in his car who was suspected of being under the influence of a controlled substance. Officers attempted to arrest him and he reportedly physically resisted arrest. No force tools were used before taking him to the ground and handcuffing him. For approximately 8 minutes, an officer, hand in his pant's pocket, knelt on the subject's neck while the prisoner repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. An ambulance arrived, showing officers had earlier requested EMS response. By the time the gurney arrived, the subject was unresponsive. The officer removed his knee from the subject's neck, then roughly yanked and dragged him over to be put on the gurney. The suspect died in police custody.

Times have changed. It is past time to change with the times.

Without seeing the autopsy or toxicology report, all we can do is speculate as to the cause of death. What we can be pretty much assured about is the man was not "suffocated" by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck. The subject was able to repeatedly speak, therefore his trachea was not occluded.

Drugs plus physical exertion during an arrest often points to excited delirium and sudden death absent injuries pointing to a different conclusion. First described in 1849 by Dr. Luther Bell as "Bell's Mania," he observed, among other symptoms, "The course of the illness is from three to six weeks, with a fatal termination in a large percentage of cases, apparently from cardio-vascular failure due to overactivity."

While it is not likely this or other officers "killed" this man, was there a better way to address this arrest that might have better served the public interest?

In the 1970s and 80s, when the public's drug use changed, LE encountered sudden in-custody deaths. The deaths of suspects during forceful arrests were wrongly attributed during various phases to the carotid restraint, OC spray, TASERs, and positional asphyxia. Excited delirium, the latest understanding that began with Dr. Bell's description, is now understood by those who seek understanding of the cause of death of those who are mentally ill and/or under the influence of drugs who physically resist arrest beyond a body's physical limits and die, yet have no obvious cause of death at autopsy.

Like that seen in the death of Eric Garner in New York, this individual complained repeatedly that he couldn't breathe. In the past, officer were trained, "If he can talk, he can breathe." THAT IS NOT TRUE.

To breathe requires the body to perform two tasks, to breathe in and out deeply enough (inspiration and exhalation) to achieve sufficient gas exchange within the lungs to keep the body's cells supplied with oxygen to support life. Through very shallow breaths, humans can push enough air through their larynx (or voicebox) to speak without achieving even minimal gas exchange.

CURRENT DOCTRINE: If a subject says, "I can't breathe," interpret that to mean, "I'm dying." The individual may not have the mental capacity or capability to discern they are having a heart attack or respiratory failure. This is a medical emergency. If it is safe, radio for emergency medical response. If the subject is unrestrained and still physically resisting, quickly handcuff him/her. Then roll the subject into a either seated position or a rescue position (on his side). Monitor closely and prepare to initiate CPR.

As soon as a subject is cuffed, remove all body weight from the core of his torso and neck/head. The appearance of the Minneapolis officer who restrained the suspect in the video presented a very difficult to defend perceived of the continuing need to restrain the subject: the officer's hand was casually in his pocket for much of the video, his face was relaxed until bystanders appeared to be approaching too closely. This will be portrayed as callous, deliberate indifference to the man's life and safety. When facing a District Attorney investigator during a police-involved death investigation, and later a jury (criminal or civil), imagine the difficulty in convincing jurors that there was little effect on the outcome of the subject's death from body weight applied to their torso or neck. While that may be the fact, people want simple answers to complex problems. The public, jurors, district attorneys, US attorneys, and many police administrators often apply the belief that " the last one who touched the deceased likely killed him."

Body weight to any area of the body during an actively resisting arrest is necessary to control the subject to handcuff him. Following handcuffing, body weight should be immediately removed from the neck, spine (from top of the spine to mid-back) area of the subject. If he
continues struggling/kicking/biting, body weight can be applied to the periphery of his body and limbs: his upper arms, shoulders, and buttocks, lessening the appearance of interfering with his breathing. If he is slamming or grinding his head or face into the ground, protect him by cradling it in your hands.

The suggestions in this post are often seen, correctly, as preventing the appearance of misconduct and deliberate indifference than rather preventing actual misconduct. That is very true. And also immaterial to your continuing in your career or possibly avoiding criminal indictment. Those who protest that appearances should not dictate police methods have likely not been forced to defend their actions in a politically-charged environment where incendiary comments are readily believed by many who have been persuaded by emotion rather than by fact.

Change is tough. Change is constant. The results of failing to change is a cliche of history. Since the late 1990s, officers have been urged to put body weight on a resisting suspect only until the suspect is cuffed, and only peripherally if he remains violent or attempts to harm himself. These officers in Minneapolis, the one kneeling on the man's neck as well as the officer who failed to intervene and tell him to get off the suspect's neck, will like experience the effects of failing to change. They already are.

Thank you for posting this. As a non-LEO type regular guy, I was unaware of "Excited Delirium."

Something that concerns me about the article are the two contradictory statements made by the author (in bold text above). If the author is trying to dismiss the knee on the neck and insert excited delirium as the proximate cause of this man's death he's doing a lousy job.

[BehindBlueI's]

Something that concerns me about the article are the two contradictory statements made by the author (in bold text above). If the author is trying to dismiss the knee on the neck and insert excited delirium as the proximate cause of this man's death he's doing a lousy job.

It's not contradictory if the knee isn't occluding the airway.

Excited delirium/positional asphyxiation he likely would have died if left on his stomach without anybody touching him. He might have died if he'd had no interaction with the police at all, but a seated position is safer then a prone position for someone who's body is already taxed to the point the cardio-vascular muscles are right on the ragged edge of not being able to work any longer. Simply put, the easier to breathe the better and sitting doesn't make you move your body weight up with each breath.

[blues]

Could be as easy as “hey boss, let me give you a hand with this guy” or “he’s not looking too good, let’s sit him up” or “remember that article about excited delirium?” or “get the fuck off him and go take a breather”. Big boy rules apply.


One of the other officers shoukd have gone up to him, patted him on the shoulder and quietly said something like " bro, he is done, you need to get off his neck because this looks really bad right now". Then you go into first aid/ SIDS procedure.



Exactly. At that point it has nothing to do with rank or seniority, and everything to do with what is right, lawful and proper under the circumstances. You deal with the personal, political or employment related fallout, (if there is any), after the fact. "Do the right thing" overrides all else...imho.

[Nightvisionary]

I am appalled by the lack of Social Distancing shown in this video.



https://youtu.be/qAGanrQB86Y

[Lon]

Coming from a very ignorant understanding (and i apologise for my ignorance in advance) - I am just wondering - if the officer kneeling on the suspects neck was a superior officer, what should have the other officers done in this scenario?

At what time is someone supposed to go against or pull up their superior officer, and how does someone go about doing that? Especially if the superior was unwilling to change their action or had just given the others a rip recently for not backing him? (I'm not saying that's the scenario - just trying to gain an understanding of how other junior police are supposed to respond in a situation like this)?

I am coming from an ignorant position - but from this ignorant position - it almost seems like you're damned if you do / damned if you don't if your a junior and your senior does something like this?

Almost every police use of force policy I have ever looked at has a policy about a duty to intervene in a situation like this. None of them have ever included “unless he’s a superior officer”.

[Dr_Thanatos]

OK I get it. I get why "clip" is aggravating too. My MA years were in the '90's and the LEO's in my school used that terminology as well.

"According to Dr. Charlie, the rear naked choke is a “so-called blood choke ([one of] those that impede blood flow from the heart to the brain),” as opposed to an “asphyxia choke (those that obstruct airflow, commonly by way of windpipe compression).”

Both types of "choke-hold's" result in asphyxial death. Preventing air from entering the lung such as from smothering, choking or compressing the trachea is a variant of asphyxia. Preventing blood from getting to the brain by compression of the jugular veins or carotid arteries is also asphyxia. Equally, removing oxygen from the environment and replacing it with a different gas, a liquid or a solid is an asphyxial death. Additionally, putting a person in a position where they cannot expand their lungs and move air is a different type of asphyxia. There are a lot of subclassifications, and different words have different meanings. Choking is when a foreign body, frequently food, obstructs the larynx or trachea. It has nothing to do with external compression of the neck. It can cause a lot of difficulties, because most people don't separate the words and then the two parties are talking about different things.

Asphyxial deaths can be very difficult to diagnose. It is likely that the ME is not going to release their report until they have seen every available video of the incident. Different perspectives can absolutely refute or assist with the diagnosis. And various ME offices have different relationships with their investigating agencies. Some better than others. We have a great relationship with our PD, and the last time I did this it took weeks to get all the video, and another month for me to watch it all. Hennepin has a great ME office, I have no doubts that they will handle their part of the investigation as completely as possible.

[Crawls]

It's not contradictory if the knee isn't occluding the airway.

Excited delirium/positional asphyxiation he likely would have died if left on his stomach without anybody touching him. He might have died if he'd had no interaction with the police at all, but a seated position is safer then a prone position for someone who's body is already taxed to the point the cardio-vascular muscles are right on the ragged edge of not being able to work any longer. Simply put, the easier to breathe the better and sitting doesn't make you move your body weight up with each breath.

It's still contradictory. The knee doesn't need to be occluding the airway to induce positional asphyxia. The author states that "..this man was not suffocated by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck" Not sure I buy that. If the officers had merely sat the guy up, this could have had a far different outcome. Even if the suspects condition had continued to deteriorate there wouldn't have been the negative video footage.
This is a bad situation for all involved except for the media and the lawyers who are going to squeeze it for every penny they can.

[Erick Gelhaus]

None of the videos I've seen so far, all of which depict an event on the passenger side of the patrol SUV with a prone black male adult, show anything resembling a carotid restraint. They do show a knee on the neck.

The MPD use of force policy is here:
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/police/policy/mpdpolicy_5-300_5-300 If you read it, sections 5-311 and 5-316 may be of interest.

One video I saw this morning, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGCFHQ4yfdg includes an exchange at 2:41:
Q - "Y'all could put him in the car."
A - "We tried that for ten minutes."

I would not make any claims about that excusing any perceived failure to get medical attention, it might explain what led up to that point.

Someone, Crawls, wrote about contradictory statements in the article I shared. Respectfully disagree. If the knee on the neck didn't block, collapse, etc the airway, then that may not have been the cause. What else was going on with the male and other officers not shown in those videos? If a protracted struggle took place before the videos shown so far started that might well explain how the male ended up cuffed and prone with multiple officers on him. That combination could be what led to an excited delirium death.

[Warped Mindless]

I haven't been keeping up with the news much lately so I have a question: have the rioters destroyed all the businesses in their own neighborhood yet? If so, are they already complaining that new businesses refuse to "come serve them" yet?

[Dr_Thanatos]

It takes 4.4lb of pressure to compress the jugular veins, 8.8 lbs for the carotid arteries, 33 lbs for the trachea, and 66 lbs for the vertebral arteries. Your head weighs about 5 lbs by reference.

Consistent pressure to the posterior/lateral portion of the neck is mostly unimportant, it's just a lot of muscle. Anterior/lateral contains the carotids/jugular complex, which at the correct height also includes the carotid bodies, a pair of vasoreceptors that continuously monitor blood pressure and change cardiac output accordingly. Pressure to the carotid bodies may have variable effects, including symptomatic bradycardia which can rapidly deteriorate.


So, to be fair, while pressure to the side of the neck may not be a great way to compress the trachea (assuming normal anatomy, which isn't always the case), it is an acceptable way to asphyxiate someone, or to cause a sudden cardiac arrhythmia.

[Lex Luthier]

That is really useful information for us laypeople, Dr_Thanatos. Thank you.

Just for reference, here is a just-released public statement by Chief Todd Axtell of the Saint Paul Police Department.

(He's usually pretty circumspect about police matters on the other side of the Mississippi.)

“A time for reflection”

"It has been a difficult few days for all of us. Like you, I’ve been shocked, disgusted, angry and grieving. I’ve also taken some time to collect my thoughts and make sure I’ve addressed this issue with your police officers (the SPPD) before talking about it publicly.
Now I want you to know where I stand.

The video of a man being arrested across the river is beyond disturbing. The situation can only be described as a tragedy in every sense of the word.

I’m also using this as an opportunity to do some soul searching, and I’ve asked our officers to join me in doing the same.

I often say that being a police officer is a calling, and those who answer do so because they want to help people. At the SPPD, we look for people who, at a minimum, possess these qualities: integrity, respect for all, compassion and empathy. These are the building blocks on which trust, community safety and professional fulfillment are built. And they are non-negotiable.

They also need to be maintained. Today I asked all SPPD officers to check in on themselves.

Something went horribly wrong at the intersection of 38th and Chicago, and everyone in law enforcement owes it to themselves, their coworkers, their city and the people they serve to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

So today I asked every SPPD police officer to watch the horrible video and do something different. I asked them to put themselves in George Floyd’s shoes.

I asked them to imagine they are on the ground and cannot breathe. Imagine that their only option is to turn to a police officer for help. Imagine the pain, fear and desperation. Then think about how their families would feel later, watching such a video of them, beneath the knee of an officer, with no hope.

Then I asked them to put themselves in the shoes of the officers, the bystanders, the community members we serve who are now forced to confront this tragedy.

As painful as this is, it’s something we, as law enforcement professionals, must do. Because when we lose our integrity, respect for all, compassion and empathy – when we stop seeing people and only see problems – we lose everything that is good about our profession.

Finally, I challenged our officers to ask themselves if they would have done anything differently from what the officers did in the video.

If the answer is no, I told them to reconsider their career choice.

Integrity. Respect for all. Compassion. Empathy.

These qualities are non-negotiable – as law enforcement professionals and as human beings.

I know that the job is difficult. I know that the vast majority of the time officers do what is right. But I also know that if we don't check ourselves, we run the risk of losing touch with humanity. And then we have lost everything.

I’m praying for Mr. Floyd, his family, our community and our police officers and I’m committed to doing everything possible to make sure we never again see another tragedy like this."

[BehindBlueI's]

It's still contradictory. The knee doesn't need to be occluding the airway to induce positional asphyxia. The author states that "..this man was not suffocated by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck" Not sure I buy that. If the officers had merely sat the guy up, this could have had a far different outcome. Even

Yeah, maybe. Something I already included and why it's not contradictory.

What would happen if the knee were removed but the suspect was left prone? Does he die anyway? I know with certainty that it happens sometimes. That question is why it's not contradictory.

[willie]

A juvenile facility where I worked had an incident where employees killed a kid by using an improper restraint. Weight of employee on kid's back prevented breathing. This instance involved a muscular 16 year old who went nuts. Restraining required three adults. Accidental. Poorly trained employees. White kid. This made local news. Had it been a minority kid, the story would have gone world wide.

[Sensei]

The reason for asphyxia in this case is likely multifactorial with compression of the thorax and posteriolateral neck contributing. This means that restricted chest wall mechanics, increased intrathoracic pressure (causing reduced venous return / cardiac output), and reduced cerebral blood flow all contributed to the cardiac arrest to various degrees.


Here is the bottomline:
1) Significant and prolonged compression of the neck or thorax is potentially lethal force. Treat it as such and use it judiciously and sparingly or else prepare to be famous.

2) There is a mistaken belief that people who are talking cannot be suffocating. I hear this from nurses, paramedics and hospital security all the damn time in response to combative patients who claim they “can’t breath.” The response from the “healthcare providers” goes something this, “Well, if you’re running your mouth, then you’re breathing just fine. Stop talking and fighting us and we will get off you.” The death spiral begins in these cases because it is a natural reaction to fight when asphyxiating pressure is applied to the chest and neck. God knows how many people I’ve intubated just to keep my own nurses and security from murdering someone with agitated delirium with their fuck-up “therapeutic hold” only to get pissy comments from ER charge nurses about have another vented patient needing 1:1 nursing...

[ccmdfd]

2) There is a mistaken belief that people who are talking cannot be suffocating. I hear this from nurses, paramedics and hospital security all the damn time in response to combative patients who claim they “can’t breath.” The response from the “healthcare providers” goes something this, “Well, if you’re running your mouth, then you’re breathing just fine. Stop talking and fighting us and we will get off you.” The death spiral begins in these cases because it is a natural reaction to fight when asphyxiating pressure is applied to the chest and neck. God knows how many people I’ve intubated just to keep my own nurses and security from murdering someone with agitated delirium with their fuck-up “therapeutic hold” only to get pissy comments from ER charge nurses about have another vented patient needing 1:1 nursing...

Otherwise known as dead space ventilation.
(Edited . Dead space ventilation is just one explanation for being able to speak but asphyxiate)

Personal opinion is that we are taught at a young age that when a newborn cries out after birth, that's a good sign of good air movement, and in that case more often than not they're right. This then gets translated as crying infant=good airflow, thus talking adult=good airflow, and obviously that's not the case.

I will also say that the sensation of shortness of breath is very poorly understood in modern medicine. There are a lot of different possibilities to what may be leading to that sensation in any particular patient.

Generally speaking though, for someone who does not have a chronic lung condition to suddenly develop significant shortness of breath, well you better be figuring out what's going on and fix it real fast, otherwise they won't be long for this world. It's not a complaint to be ignored

[LittleLebowski]

Damn, LA.

1265818771538632705

[LittleLebowski]

The Minneapolis rioters just burned down that den of social justice inequity, Autozone.

[LittleLebowski]

Listen to the Minneapolis radio feed:

https://www.broadcastify.com/webPlayer/27929

[Mjolnir]

Words fail me. I really hope the brass dotted all their i’s and crossed their t’s during this internal.

I hope they did not do their due diligence. This shit has to stop.

Yesterday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dan_S]

Listen to the Minneapolis radio feed:

https://www.broadcastify.com/webPlayer/27929

What, exactly, am I listening to here?

[Mjolnir]

Very informative for a non LE as myself. Follow up - could a blood choke for that length of time be fatal?

Yes.

A Carotid Artery choke when applied properly takes about eight SECONDS to render someone unconscious. Hold it for eight minutes?? Their gone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

What, exactly, am I listening to here?

Minneapolis police radio feed.

[Lex Luthier]

What, exactly, am I listening to here?

Lake Street is a major e-w 4 lane artery through Mpls.
The block area referred to is a major shopping section with a Super Target and a large local grocery chain on one side, and a MPD precinct on the other. Sounds like there is looting & fire setting going on.

[Dan_S]

Yes.

A Carotid Artery choke when applied properly takes about eight SECONDS to render someone unconscious. Hold it for eight minutes?? Their gone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Eight seconds? When LL’s brother put me into one, I tapped out after maybe two seconds. Absolutely astounding how quickly you feel it.

[ccmdfd]

Minneapolis police radio feed.

Surprising to not see any breaking news style headlines on CNN, etc.

If I just heard correctly, some are throwing large fireworks at officers?

[Dan_S]

Lake Street is a major e-w 4 lane artery through Mpls.
The block area referred to is a major shopping section with a Super Target and a large local grocery chain on one side, and a MPD precinct on the other. Sounds like there is looting & fire setting going on.

‘Whoever is throwing large fireworks at us, mark them’

‘May be a bomb set to explode, not sure if that is the object...’

‘Resupply munitions’


😳

[DDTSGM]

In this case, I don’t see it. However, do not make the mistake of assuming “handcuffed” always equals “effectively restrained” Officers get head-butted, bitten, spit on and kicked by handcuffed suspects all the time. Like everything else, context dictates.

And that is absolutely true, but if that were the case - the officer needing to do so to effectively restrain - you'd think the officer would be paying some attention to what he perceived as a threat to his safety. That wasn't happening. The optic was horrible.

[olstyn]

The Minneapolis rioters just burned down that den of social justice inequity, Autozone.

Watch out O'Reilly Auto Parts! You're Next! :p

[RevolverRob]

The Minneapolis rioters just burned down that den of social justice inequity, Autozone.

DAMNIT MAN!

Will the madness never end? Where else am I gonna get cheap Chinese and Mexican made parts for my daughter's-boyfriend's-cousin's-car that I gotta fix in my driveway so he can drive his grandma to dialysis?!

[Sensei]

OK I get it. I get why "clip" is aggravating too. My MA years were in the '90's and the LEO's in my school used that terminology as well.


Probably the best “real life” illustration of the rear naked choke effectiveness is this BJJ match between Marcelo Garcia vs. Vitor Ribeiro. At the 10 second mark Garcia has his arm under Ribeiro’s chin; by 20 seconds Ribeiro is unconscious and limp...

https://youtu.be/X_8O-fq-NI4

Most people can hold their breath for 1-2 minutes before losing consciousness. Ribeiro was out in 10 seconds.

[-ad-]

Thanks to all who replied to my uneducated question. It's great to be able to hear from people with first hand and real world scenario's - and to try and gain an understanding of as much as possible. (Which we never get from "News" outlets).

It just further increases my respect and appreciation for what LEO's face and how much good they do for the community - and how much damage the few rotten eggs can do.

Thank you to all who serve with integrity!

[DDTSGM]

Eight seconds? When LL’s brother put me into one, I tapped out after maybe two seconds. Absolutely astounding how quickly you feel it.

Brachial Plexus Stun - a blow to brachial plexus origin (side of the neck, below and forward of ear - generally with forearm or back of hand) causes momentary unconsciousness by shock to the carotid, jugular, and vagus nerve.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rr30tpPM4w

[Warped Mindless]

Rioters burned and looted several stores including a Target.

Yeah, that will surely make people sympathetic to your cause.

[Crawls]

Someone, Crawls, wrote about contradictory statements in the article I shared. Respectfully disagree. If the knee on the neck didn't block, collapse, etc the airway, then that may not have been the cause. What else was going on with the male and other officers not shown in those videos? If a protracted struggle took place before the videos shown so far started that might well explain how the male ended up cuffed and prone with multiple officers on him. That combination could be what led to an excited delirium death.

I think we're debating semantics. Perhaps my understanding of "positional asphyxia" is incorrect. I'm thinking of it as synonymous to positional suffocation. That could be incorrect. Consequentially, (by my definition) a collapsed trachea or otherwise occluded airway is a red hearing. If the suspect died of positional asphyxia associated with excited dysphoria, it was still the officer's knee that kept that the suspect in the position where he struggled to breathe. Perhaps the suspect would still have succumbed to the excited dysphoria even if the officers had sat the suspect up. Who knows? But based off of what the Author wrote in the rest of the article, it seems like keeping the subject in the prone was the wrong course of action. I'm not judging the officers. I am not in law enforcement; was not there in the moment, and have not seen the missing segments of video. I'm just trying to understand the point the author is making.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think we're debating semantics. Perhaps my understanding of "positional asphyxia" is incorrect. I'm thinking of it as synonymous to positional suffocation. That could be incorrect. Consequentially, (by my definition) a collapsed trachea or otherwise occluded airway is a red hearing. If the suspect died of positional asphyxia associated with excited dysphoria, it was still the officer's knee that kept that the suspect in the position where he struggled to breathe. Perhaps the suspect would still have succumbed to the excited dysphoria even if the officers had sat the suspect up. Who knows? But based off of what the Author wrote in the rest of the article, it seems like keeping the subject in the prone was the wrong course of action. I'm not judging the officers. I am not in law enforcement; was not there in the moment, and have not seen the missing segments of video. I'm just trying to understand the point the author is making.

I'll try one more time. Yes, leaving him prone was the wrong course of action.

"The knee" and "prone" are two different things and two different issues. The knee is not required to keep the guy prone. People die when left in the prone and unattended.

[JTQ]

ABC News showed additional video of the police calmly walking, what appears to be an already handcuffed George Floyd from a car, onto the sidewalk and toward a building. I've also heard a radio report indicating the police spent 10 minutes trying to get Mr. Floyd into a patrol car.

The public is currently missing information between the sidewalk/building and how Mr. Floyd ended back on the street and on the ground.

[JHC]

Eight seconds? When LL’s brother put me into one, I tapped out after maybe two seconds. Absolutely astounding how quickly you feel it.

When I was put "out" with a LATERAL VASCULAR RESTRAINT technique ;) it probably took about 8 seconds. The room was like an old style TV screen that zoomed down tight and then went black. And then in reverse order it zoomed back open. This was administered by an instructor for the class. I think of it as old school pre Taser demo. I didn't give it a 2nd thought but I guess that may not be considered a safe practice anymore.

We were taught counters to escape this but they were BS mostly IMO. I had my doubts so before a class I asked an experienced street cop to do me for real to see if I could make the counter work. It did not. He hit me like a cross between a bull and a python and I was tapping in no time. He said "Don't feel bad, I've xxxxxx-out 100 guys on the street for real. If I sink it you're done."

But this was a long time ago. Probably '91 or so.

[BehindBlueI's]

The public is currently missing information between the sidewalk/building and how Mr. Floyd ended back on the street and on the ground.

Regardless of why, the problem of holding him in the prone for an extended period of time after control had been gained is the problem. The dangers are well known in law enforcement and have been detailed in this thread already. I can't think of any scenario where that currently missing information overrides that fact.

My department requires a supervisor to do an administrative review of every use of force (defined as any use of physical force other than unresisted handcuffing) by officers. Yesterday two of my officers were dispatched to a guy drugged up and destroying a gas station restroom. He pulled the dispensers off the walls, beat the walls with the trashcan, got into the urinal to try and drag it off the wall, was basically just in there working himself pretty hard in destruction mode. Unsurprisingly he resisted, flailing and kicking at officers. He continued to resist while in handcuffs until a third officer arrived with leg shackles and limited his ability to kick. Then two officers held him down ON HIS SIDE with weight on his pelvis and legs.

That dude was a prime fucking candidate for excited delirium. Drugged up, already engaged in strenuous physical activity, had already stripped off most of his clothes (because body temperature isn't regulated as well any more and they are cooking themselves), and then engaged in a struggle with police. After rolling around in a public toilet at a gas station and getting himself wet from the urinal and possibly the toilet. I watched 10 minutes of video until medics arrived. They held him on his side the entire time until medics arrived. That's what they are trained to do regardless of what happened before the suspect was under control.

[lwt16]

When I was put "out" with a LATERAL VASCULAR RESTRAINT technique ;) it probably took about 8 seconds. The room was like an old style TV screen that zoomed down tight and then went black. And then in reverse order it zoomed back open. This was administered by an instructor for the class. I think of it as old school pre Taser demo. I didn't give it a 2nd thought but I guess that may not be considered a safe practice anymore.

We were taught counters to escape this but they were BS mostly IMO. I had my doubts so before a class I asked an experienced street cop to do me for real to see if I could make the counter work. It did not. He hit me like a cross between a bull and a python and I was tapping in no time. He said "Don't feel bad, I've xxxxxx-out 100 guys on the street for real. If I sink it you're done."

But this was a long time ago. Probably '91 or so.

We had a former officer show up to in-service drunk (hence, former) and started a physical fight with another officer over pretty much nothing.

One of the instructors, also a DT instructor, came up behind him, sank it, and it was all over in seconds. Nighty nite for a few and then massive headache and pink slip.

Back on track though, I've had resistant subjects and hostile crowds. What we do is load up said dude and GTFO....even if someone has to ride in the back with them to get a block or two from the crowd. Then that guy/gal walks back to get their car.

I'm not understanding the delay....unless they have a policy that states medical needs to check someone out after a UOF. Even then, I'd load and leave to a more secure location.

[rkittine]

Not only was it wrong, but in today's world of Body Cams, Cell Phone Videos etc., why would anyone in their right mind take that kind of action for an unarmed perpetrator especially suspected forgery!

Bob

[andre3k]

I watched 10 minutes of video until medics arrived.

You're lucky you only have to watch the portion of video involving the use of force. I have to watch the entire video, which can be quite long. Fortunately, the policy doesn't say I can't fast forward through some parts of the video.




Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[blues]

Regardless of why, the problem of holding him in the prone for an extended period of time after control had been gained is the problem.

This, and the method of keeping him prone, are the crux. What happened prior is rendered irrelevant once he has been brought under control. Other options were available, whether ideal or not.

[BehindBlueI's]

You're lucky you only have to watch the portion of video involving the use of force. I have to watch the entire video, which can be quite long. Fortunately, the policy doesn't say I can't fast forward through some parts of the video.


It was surveillance video at the gas station. I'd still be there if I had to watch the entire video.

[TGS]

Not only was it wrong, but in today's world of Body Cams, Cell Phone Videos etc., why would anyone in their right mind take that kind of action for an unarmed perpetrator especially suspected forgery!

Bob

The problem isn't forcibly restraining someone for "suspected forgery". If you fight when you try to get arrested, you'll get handled according to your resistance regardless of what you're being arrested for.

The problem here is sitting on the guy even after he was cuffed (diminishing justification) and further sitting on him after he went limp (no justification). At this point with the facts known, it has nothing to do with using force against someone who was being arrested for forgery.

[andre3k]

It was surveillance video at the gas station. I'd still be there if I had to watch the entire video.Ok, I thought it was body cam video.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Zincwarrior]

Regardless of why, the problem of holding him in the prone for an extended period of time after control had been gained is the problem. The dangers are well known in law enforcement and have been detailed in this thread already. I can't think of any scenario where that currently missing information overrides that fact.

My department requires a supervisor to do an administrative review of every use of force (defined as any use of physical force other than unresisted handcuffing) by officers. Yesterday two of my officers were dispatched to a guy drugged up and destroying a gas station restroom. He pulled the dispensers off the walls, beat the walls with the trashcan, got into the urinal to try and drag it off the wall, was basically just in there working himself pretty hard in destruction mode. Unsurprisingly he resisted, flailing and kicking at officers. He continued to resist while in handcuffs until a third officer arrived with leg shackles and limited his ability to kick. Then two officers held him down ON HIS SIDE with weight on his pelvis and legs.

That dude was a prime fucking candidate for excited delirium. Drugged up, already engaged in strenuous physical activity, had already stripped off most of his clothes (because body temperature isn't regulated as well any more and they are cooking themselves), and then engaged in a struggle with police. After rolling around in a public toilet at a gas station and getting himself wet from the urinal and possibly the toilet. I watched 10 minutes of video until medics arrived. They held him on his side the entire time until medics arrived. That's what they are trained to do regardless of what happened before the suspect was under control.

A bit OT but how did they get him out without injuring themselves? This screams for some sort of comical throw in a can of tear gas or angry mother in law situation...

[LittleLebowski]

Looks like a war zone this morning.

1266016826854641672

[HCM]

Not only was it wrong, but in today's world of Body Cams, Cell Phone Videos etc., why would anyone in their right mind take that kind of action for an unarmed perpetrator especially suspected forgery!

Bob

The ignorance of your statement is exceeded only by it’s arrogance.

I guess now that COVID-19 is waning it’s time for the “internet Epidemiologists” to return to being internet experts in policing and use of force.

[ccmdfd]

Looks like a war zone this morning.

1266016826854641672

Wow, just wow.

I’m all for marching in the streets, carrying signs and chants in protest of something, even if I disagree with you. But there’s no excuse for that type of violence

[blues]

Wow, just wow.

I’m all for marching in the streets, carrying signs and chants in protest of something, even if I disagree with you. But there’s no excuse for that type of violence

The fact that it was predictable makes it no less lamentable. Truly "back to the future". All of this could have been avoided. And I fear the worst is not yet over...neither in Minneapolis nor elsewhere.

[rkittine]

TGS, I hear you. My mistake. Was not posted though in ignorance or arrogance. I was sick with Covid for 5 weeks, but that has not effected my mind.

Bob

[Darth_Uno]

Wow, just wow.

I’m all for marching in the streets, carrying signs and chants in protest of something, even if I disagree with you. But there’s no excuse for that type of violence

Reddit is blowing up with how unfair the police response is, compared to the coronavirus/shutdown protest.

Perhaps because the shutdown protesters weren’t destroying the city. Pure speculation of course.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

A bit OT but how did they get him out without injuring themselves? This screams for some sort of comical throw in a can of tear gas or angry mother in law situation...

The suspect grabbed the door to try and hold it closed. One officer pulled the door while the other grabbed the suspect's wrist then did an arm-bar takedown.

[RevolverRob]

Reddit

Reddit is only a step above the various XChan fora for general intelligence or depth of knowledge.

[Zincwarrior]

The suspect grabbed the door to try and hold it closed. One officer pulled the door while the other grabbed the suspect's wrist then did an arm-bar takedown.

Thanks!

[Dr_Thanatos]

Probably the best “real life” illustration of the rear naked choke effectiveness is this BJJ match between Marcelo Garcia vs. Vitor Ribeiro. At the 10 second mark Garcia has his arm under Ribeiro’s chin; by 20 seconds Ribeiro is unconscious and limp...

https://youtu.be/X_8O-fq-NI4

Most people can hold their breath for 1-2 minutes before losing consciousness. Ribeiro was out in 10 seconds.

The time difference needed for vascular compression to render someone unconscious vs. the time one can go without oxygen is a very important concept.

Complete compression of the vascular structures in the neck immediately stops blood flow to the brain. The only oxygen remaining is what is already in the blood that is there, and within seconds, it will be used up and the person will be unconscious. This mechanism of death is what happens in most suicidal hangings. Frequently, the individual is dead within a minute or two, and resuscitation will only work within only a few minutes. If resuscitation works, they are usually brain dead. Because they directly kill their brain.

Incomplete compression of the vascular structures, or variable compression oscillating between complete and incomplete is more common in manual strangulation, occasionally in ligature strangulation. That's why those people tend to have petechae in the sclerae/conjunctivae of the eyes, skin of the face or labial/gingival mucosae of the mouth. This pattern will take longer to result in someone's death.

Complete obstruction of the airway frequently results in injury to neck structures, unless a broad ligature, such as a forearm is used. The amount of pressure is also a significant factor. It depends on where the pressure is in relation to the larynx as well. It takes much longer to die from this mechanism, and resuscitation is frequently effective. Manual strangulation is also the usual associated mechanism of injury. For most homicides, manual strangulation involves the hands. Usually by the time manual strangulation is on the table, the perpetrator is pretty angry, and basically crushes everything within the neck.

However, manual strangulation also includes various neck holds. We have a great community of both unarmed combatants, and LE, and I'm not going to speak for them. But I have had multiple cases where a lateral vascular restraint used during a fight turned into a arm bar style chokehold. Ironically, held for a long time, the lateral vascular restraint is more dangerous, but the arm bar has more chance of causing lasting damage within the neck earlier in the engagement. Both can be effective for their desired effect, both can me fatal, both can cause lasting injury, both can have no lasting effects. There are differences in likelihood of those outcomes though.


I think we're debating semantics. Perhaps my understanding of "positional asphyxia" is incorrect. I'm thinking of it as synonymous to positional suffocation. That could be incorrect. Consequentially, (by my definition) a collapsed trachea or otherwise occluded airway is a red hearing. If the suspect died of positional asphyxia associated with excited dysphoria, it was still the officer's knee that kept that the suspect in the position where he struggled to breathe. Perhaps the suspect would still have succumbed to the excited dysphoria even if the officers had sat the suspect up. Who knows? But based off of what the Author wrote in the rest of the article, it seems like keeping the subject in the prone was the wrong course of action. I'm not judging the officers. I am not in law enforcement; was not there in the moment, and have not seen the missing segments of video. I'm just trying to understand the point the author is making.

Ok, so again, there are lots of sub-categories within asphyxia. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but words have meanings, even if few people used them that way. Mechanical asphyxia is a sub category that includes anything that puts pressure on the outside of your body to prevent you from moving air.

Sub-categories include traumatic asphyxia, where weight is on the chest sufficient to prevent effective movement of air. We see this in industrial accidents, occasional motor vehicle crashes where the individual is pinned beneath the car, etc. We also see it in babies bed-sharing with parents, but there it is referred to as overlying.

Positional asphyxia is when the decedent is confined between objects so that they cannot escape or expand the chest. It is seen in babies entrapped within poorly designed cribs, falling into spaces between mattress and sidewall. Also seen in alcoholics and the elderly falling into a narrow space between a bed and a wall. They are literally wedged in so tight they cannot breathe. A subcategory includes hyperflexion of the neck such that the airway collapses as a result, usually seen in alcoholics or drug abusers. We all know how to put our chin against our chest and make ourselves snore. Some of us prove it every night. Pushing the neck even further can cause the mid trachea to collapse. This is frequently seen in a passed out alcoholic/drug abuser who falls backward into a position against an object that as they slowly slide down, they end in a compromised position.

Dogpile/riot crush/trample deaths are when someone is compressed beneath or between multiple people and cannot escape.

As a side note, suffocation a very broad category that basically means oxygen isn't getting to the blood. There are lots of subcategories, including choking, smothering and mechanical asphyxia.

BehindBlueI's has done a nice job of explaining why LE puts people onto their side. Excited delirium is a diagnosis that currently is not recognized by any medical groups except for forensic pathology and emergency medicine. (As far as I know, the last time I had to review the literature was about a year and a half ago.) The psychiatrists don't recognize it in it's current form, That has a lot to do with advances in medicine used to treat psychiatric disorders. There is a lot of controversy still associated with deaths involving restraints and positioning. Partially this is due to public scrutiny, and partially because (in the past) we only had eyewitness accounts, rather than video with audio. There is also a lot of literature both pro and con the diagnosis. Some still insist that there is no such diagnosis, and it is always a variant of "restraint asphyxia". Some think restraint asphyxia is non-existent. As always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I have had numerous cases of excited delirium, and several cases of what was more likely asphyxia during restraint. And some that were combinations of both. They are difficult diagnoses.

None of this is particularly directed to this case. Just broadening everyone's educational horizons. We don't know what we don't know.

[Clay1]

I read / scanned the whole thread. I hope that I didn't miss it but I keep asking myself why did the officer have his hand in his pocket? Any trained reason for this? I would think that you would want your hands available.

[TGS]

Wow, just wow.

I’m all for marching in the streets, carrying signs and chants in protest of something, even if I disagree with you. But there’s no excuse for that type of violence

Even more that it was directed against a town that outright disavowed and fired the officers immediately, and made public statements that justice would be served.

The rioters had nothing to do with wanting justice or any other virtuous endeavor. They were just a bunch of angry unproductive idiots that wanted to have fun for a night, and used the decedents passing as a medium for their behavior.

And now they're probably just waking up and getting pissed at the city because they can't get their food from McD's that they burned down themselves, but will undoubtedly lay responsibility on the city for.

[Default.mp3]

I read / scanned the whole thread. I hope that I didn't miss it but I keep asking myself why did the officer have his hand in his pocket? Any trained reason for this? I would think that you would want your hands available.He didn't. The black gloves he had on simply made it look like he did, but his hand was actually on his thigh, and the camera's poor dynamic range means that the black glove blended right into the uniform pant.

[Caballoflaco]

Dr_Thanatos has won much internets for taking his time to drop massive science bombs in this thread.

[DDTSGM]

Officer at center of George Floyd's death had history of prior complaints

https://www.yahoo.com/news/officer-center-george-floyds-death-005400813.html

Within the story:

To be the subject of a dozen complaints over a two-decade career would appear "a little bit higher than normal," said Mylan Masson, a retired Minneapolis Park police officer and longtime police training expert for the state of Minnesota at Hennepin Technical College.

But, she added, anyone can file a complaint against an officer, whether or not it's valid, and officers might be subject to more complaints if they deal with the public often. Either way, an officer's disciplinary record will be up for scrutiny in any legal proceedings, Masson said.

An investigation including state authorities is being led by the FBI. Chauvin, 44, who is white, is being represented by lawyer Tom Kelly, who declined to comment when contacted by NBC News. Efforts to reach the other officers for comment were unsuccessful Wednesday.

I don't think that less than one a year is necessarily excessive if you consider shift worked, area worked, etc. You also need some background on what the complaints encompassed and whether they were substantiated.

Not withstanding, the fact that I think the officer didn't act appropriately in this situation, this story is symptomatic of today's journalism - let's go with the headline before we actually run down the story, you know, investigate our facts.

[TCinVA]

Even more that it was directed against a town that outright disavowed and fired the officers immediately, and made public statements that justice would be served.

The rioters had nothing to do with wanting justice or any other virtuous endeavor. They were just a bunch of angry unproductive idiots that wanted to have fun for a night, and used the decedents passing as a medium for their behavior.

And now they're probably just waking up and getting pissed at the city because they can't get their food from McD's that they burned down themselves, but will undoubtedly lay responsibility on the city for.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a number of the violent rioters showed up from elsewhere to cause mischief. That's a consistent feature of this sort of thing.

[ccmdfd]

Even more that it was directed against a town that outright disavowed and fired the officers immediately, and made public statements that justice would be served.

The rioters had nothing to do with wanting justice or any other virtuous endeavor. They were just a bunch of angry unproductive idiots that wanted to have fun for a night, and used the decedents passing as a medium for their behavior.

And now they're probably just waking up and getting pissed at the city because they can't get their food from McD's that they burned down themselves, but will undoubtedly lay responsibility on the city for.

Yeah, they probably would have rioted even if the city had hung all four of the cops in the downtown Square within an hour of the event.

Also can't partially help wondering if being pent up from quarantine / lockdown played any role in the rioting

[Lex Luthier]

Local FB scanner and neighborhood pages are on fire. Currently listening to https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/13544
There are looters active in the shopping district less than a mile from from me; Target superstore, Cub Foods, Dollar Store, TJ Maxx, several smaller stores along University Ave in the Midway District, a Foot Locker just looted, also a shopping center in east St Paul near the 3M Campus. Reports that light rail between capitol & Minneapolis is shut down.
Oy.

These folks are too young to remember the 1967 riots. Even the one in (predominantly black) North Minneapolis that their parents or grandparents went through. That area, just like Newark, Watts, and Detroit, was never rebuilt, and never recovered.

[blues]

Yeah, they probably would have rioted even if the city had hung all four of the cops in the downtown Square within an hour of the event.

Also can't partially help wondering if being pent up from quarantine / lockdown played any role in the rioting

I would say the reaction was entirely predictable based upon past (pre-Covid) history.

[ccmdfd]

I would say the reaction was entirely predictable based upon past (pre-Covid) history.

US as a whole or something specific about that area?

[helothar]

Local FB scanner and neighborhood pages are on fire. currently listening to https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/13544
There are looters active in the shopping district less than a mile from from me; Target superstore, Cub Foods, Dollar Store, TJ Maxx, several smaller stores along University Ave in the Midway District, a Foot Locker just looted, also a shopping center in east St Paul near the 3M Campus. Reports that light rail between capitol & Minneapolis is shut down.
Oy.

These folks are too young to remember the 1967 riots. Even the one in (predominantly black) North Minneapolis that their parents or grandparents went through. That area, just like Newark, Watts, and Detroit, was never rebuilt, and never recovered.I'm pretty close to there as well, thanks for the scanner link

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[blues]

US as a whole or something specific about that area?

Around the country in response to perceived harms...whether actual or invented.

[RevolverRob]

US as a whole or something specific about that area?

I can't speak for blues on this one - but for me, it is totally in character with the typical societal response to these events, perpetrated by a subset of our society. That subset tends to look for any given thing to offend it and use that offense as an excuse to justify sociopathic behavior. For the most recent things look at the damage and looting down after Fergueson along with many other instances.

My default expectation as soon as these things come out is that there will be riots and looting in the immediate locale AND widespread civil unrest in large urban areas. We're already seeing protests here in Chicago and likely will see riots if these cops aren't charged or even if something that looks similar happens here in Chicago. We saw in LA that mobs attacked police cars with impunity. To me, that is a full blown standard response thing to our soft-mitted ways of dealing with trouble-makers.

Given the Arbery thing in Georgia had already stoked up the coals, this Minneapolis thing just poured gasoline on the fire.

[RJ]

Local FB scanner and neighborhood pages are on fire. Currently listening to https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/13544
There are looters active in the shopping district less than a mile from from me; Target superstore, Cub Foods, Dollar Store, TJ Maxx, several smaller stores along University Ave in the Midway District, a Foot Locker just looted, also a shopping center in east St Paul near the 3M Campus. Reports that light rail between capitol & Minneapolis is shut down.
Oy.

These folks are too young to remember the 1967 riots. Even the one in (predominantly black) North Minneapolis that their parents or grandparents went through. That area, just like Newark, Watts, and Detroit, was never rebuilt, and never recovered.


I'm pretty close to there as well, thanks for the scanner link

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Be safe.

[5pins]

We just got an email that there is a movement to protest or loot Target stores across the country.

[TheRoland]

Why is Target being, uh, Targeted?

[Lex Luthier]

We just got an email that there is a movement to protest or loot Target stores across the country.

That is ....bizarre. Any indications why? And who sent such an e-mail? Are they a credible source?

[RJ]

That is ....bizarre. Any indications why? And who sent such an e-mail? Are they a credible source?

They have “no choice”, apparently, according to this guy:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/28/cardi-b-looters-who-torched-autozone-ransacked-tar/

“Cardi B says there was “no choice” but arson, looting, and violence by Minnesotans who are upset over the death of George Floyd.

The rapper behind “Invasion of Privacy” made the comments as arsonists burned an AutoZone, ransacked a Target and liquor store, and resorted to violence over Monday’s viral footage of Mr. Floyd, a 46-year-old black man, with a white police officer kneeling on his neck.

“They looting in Minnesota and as much as I don’t like this type of violence it is what it is,” the rapper told nearly 12 million Twitter followers. “Too much peaceful marches, too much trending hashtags and NO SOLUTIONS! The people are left with NO CHOICE.”

[RevolverRob]

Why is Target being, uh, Targeted?

HQ'ed in Minneapolis/St. Paul area. Probably the single largest retailer/company with a large presence HQ'ed in that area.

[RevolverRob]

They have “no choice”, apparently, according to this guy:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/28/cardi-b-looters-who-torched-autozone-ransacked-tar/

“Cardi B says there was “no choice” but arson, looting, and violence by Minnesotans who are upset over the death of George Floyd.

The rapper behind “Invasion of Privacy” made the comments as arsonists burned an AutoZone, ransacked a Target and liquor store, and resorted to violence over Monday’s viral footage of Mr. Floyd, a 46-year-old black man, with a white police officer kneeling on his neck.

“They looting in Minnesota and as much as I don’t like this type of violence it is what it is,” the rapper told nearly 12 million Twitter followers. “Too much peaceful marches, too much trending hashtags and NO SOLUTIONS! The people are left with NO CHOICE.”


“Looting ain’t violent,” responded a user identified as DreemzC. “White people better be glad folk don’t bomb their homes and churches.”

Yea...that's a good way to win friends and influence people. And also to help race relations in the U.S...:rolleyes:

[5pins]

That is ....bizarre. Any indications why? And who sent such an e-mail? Are they a credible source?

The email was sent to us be another federal LE agency.

[willie]

I was at USC when the LA Watt's riot started. Wow. Googling 60's riots and reading this stuff will amaze. During this time handguns were definitely difficult to find. Vietnam contributed to this too. Note that in today's climate looters are referred to as protesters.

In jails it is not uncommon for a supervisor to videotape handling non compliant inmates who are also violent. If a population subset is over represented in at risk categories that include criminal history, violent behavior, and such, then some of those arrested might be extremely difficult to process. Hence aggressive restraints might be used. I predict that police procedures will change to adjust accordingly. At the same time posturing will increase. Foot chases will cease. Traffic offense citations will decrease. Turning a blind eye to offenses will be more common.

[Robert Mitchum]

https://youtu.be/vtNkEWmFFCI

[LittleLebowski]

Local FB scanner and neighborhood pages are on fire. Currently listening to https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/13544
There are looters active in the shopping district less than a mile from from me; Target superstore, Cub Foods, Dollar Store, TJ Maxx, several smaller stores along University Ave in the Midway District, a Foot Locker just looted, also a shopping center in east St Paul near the 3M Campus. Reports that light rail between capitol & Minneapolis is shut down.
Oy.

These folks are too young to remember the 1967 riots. Even the one in (predominantly black) North Minneapolis that their parents or grandparents went through. That area, just like Newark, Watts, and Detroit, was never rebuilt, and never recovered.

They’re looting Footlocker and a liquor store right now.

[blues]

They’re looting Footlocker and a liquor store right now.

Run fast, jump higher. Get a buzz.

[BehindBlueI's]

That is ....bizarre. Any indications why? And who sent such an e-mail? Are they a credible source?

It's credible and being investigated in multiple jurisdictions, let's leave it at that.

[Lex Luthier]

It's credible and being investigated in multiple jurisdictions, let's leave it at that.

Got it. Thank you both, BehindBlueI's 5pins.

Right now it appears the team protecting the SPPD Western District Headquarters are trying to head off a possible assault.

[RJ]

Broadcastify Link to Saint Paul Police, Fire, and Public Works Dispatch:

https://www.broadcastify.com/webPlayer/13544

Everybody please stay safe.

[blues]

Got it. Thank you both, BehindBlueI's 5pins.

Right now it appears the team protecting the SPPD Western District Headquarters are trying to head off a possible assault.

Bro', if you need to bail, I got a room with private shower downstairs for you and yours.

[5pins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7K1QJcQ-SA

[LittleLebowski]

They’re looting Footlocker and a liquor store right now.

TJ Maxx just got set on fire.

[Warped Mindless]

Wonder how many small businesses lost a ton of money from the shutdown only to end up looted or burned down?

Personally, if a business owner shot a looter and I was on the jury, that business owner would be walking free. I HATE people who take advantage of situations like this to loot and destroy.

[RJ]

I was at USC when the LA Watt's riot started. Wow. Googling 60's riots and reading this stuff will amaze. During this time handguns were definitely difficult to find. Vietnam contributed to this too. Note that in today's climate looters are referred to as protesters.

In jails it is not uncommon for a supervisor to videotape handling non compliant inmates who are also violent. If a population subset is over represented in at risk categories that include criminal history, violent behavior, and such, then some of those arrested might be extremely difficult to process. Hence aggressive restraints might be used. I predict that police procedures will change to adjust accordingly. At the same time posturing will increase. Foot chases will cease. Traffic offense citations will decrease. Turning a blind eye to offenses will be more common.

For sure. I was a kid during the DC riots in '68.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Washington,_D.C.,_riots

My mom was a Public Health Nurse in Alexandria. We lived not far from current Landmark Plaza (no clue if it is still there.) My dad worked in DC. I remember driving down 14th street. I have images in my head of a war zone (I was 9 at the time.) No bueno.

[andre3k]

Lets hope they have conex full of Def Tech munitions.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[5pins]

TJ Maxx just got set on fire.

Did you hear the police, on the radio, say that the owners of the tobacco shop next to it are armed?

[TGS]

Time to channel your inner roof-korean, St Paul.


For sure. I was a kid during the DC riots in '68.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Washington,_D.C.,_riots

My mom was a Public Health Nurse in Alexandria. We lived not far from current Landmark Plaza (no clue if it is still there.) My dad worked in DC. I remember driving down 14th street. I have images in my head of a war zone (I was 9 at the time.) No bueno.

Yup, it's still there. The Landmark Mall nextdoor is vacant.

I do all of my shopping the other direction, though. What little crime there is in this area generally is around North Van Dorn....

[Lex Luthier]

Did you hear the police, on the radio, say that the owners of the tobacco shop next to it are armed?

Yep. It does not surprise me. I hope they have no further trouble.
The PD is currently trying to clear that whole very large lot. The brown 3 story building directly behind the medical offices opposite LA Fitness is the SPPD Western Precinct. Across the street from that is the Target that was attacked earlier today.

[Caballoflaco]

It's credible and being investigated in multiple jurisdictions, let's leave it at that.

Considering I live a half mile from a Target and it’s where I do most of my grocery shopping, thank you and 5pins for the info.

[Cookie Monster]

Furniture barn is on fire - via the scanner feed.

[ccmdfd]

Furniture barn is on fire - via the scanner feed.

Those can get ugly.
Lots of fuel.

[Cookie Monster]

Metro PCS looted and shots fired.

Shots fired - recovered magazines at a different location.

Launching more gas at another location - Approved.

- via scanner feed.

[Lex Luthier]

Metro PCS looted - via scanner feed.

Shots fired - recovered magazines at t different location.

Launching more gas at another location - Approved.

7 short blocks from my house. Not smiling on this really truly beautiful spring day.

[Cookie Monster]

The Foot Locker is being hit up via the back door. The description is that two cars are dropping folks off and then picking them up.


1346 Charles - Molotov cocktails being mixed up is reported, officers responding.

- via scanner feed

[olstyn]

7 short blocks from my house. Not smiling on this really truly beautiful spring day.

Yeah, it's kind of surreal to listen to as I sit in my home outside the 494/694 ring and wondering if things are going to get sketchy here too - as with pretty much everywhere, there are multiple Target stores within 5-10 miles of me.

[TGS]

NYC just kicked off.


And then this drops on Twitter, that the prosecutor announced no charges.
https://twitter.com/JamesAGagliano/status/1266133297442312194

[trailrunner]

Yup, it's still there. The Landmark Mall nextdoor is vacant.

I do all of my shopping the other direction, though. What little crime there is in this area generally is around North Van Dorn....


My daughter lives on North Van Dorn.

[Lex Luthier]

NYC just kicked off.


And then this drops on Twitter, that the prosecutor announced no charges.
https://twitter.com/JamesAGagliano/status/1266133297442312194


Oh dear.

[blues]

All I keep thinking is "actions have consequences" and "be careful what you wish for". If this is the legacy these miscreants want to leave behind them, they will have no one to blame but themselves for the ashes left in their wake.

I fail to see how athletic footwear, jerseys and iPhones are going to further the cause of future harmony. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Cookie Monster]

7 short blocks from my house. Not smiling on this really truly beautiful spring day.



I am a paranoid mo-fo but I would check all the doors and pull a long gun from the safe. F'd up day.

Be safe - my wife is from the Twin Cities.

[ccmdfd]

All I keep thinking is "actions have consequences" and "be careful what you wish for". If this is the legacy these miscreants want to leave behind them, they will have no one to blame but themselves for the ashes left in their wake.

I fail to see how athletic footwear, jerseys and iPhones are going to further the cause of future harmony. Maybe I'm missing something.

The problem is with your first paragraph. They don't blame themselves. It's USA's racism which is to blame in their opinion.

[Cookie Monster]

- Talked about a squad car being destroyed at Discount Tire - "Can someone identify the squad being destroyed? Please."

- Squad being surrounded on the west side of Target

- Fire on North side of University - "the Napa", smoke coming from the Napa Auto Parts building.

- "We got to have leaders out there coming up with solutions. I am all ears."

[olstyn]

Oh dear.

I'm thinking more along the lines of "oh shit."

Whatever evidence exists that supposedly doesn't support prosecution had better be amazingly compelling, and even then, I bet we are utterly screwed short term.

[Lex Luthier]

I am a paranoid mo-fo but I would check all the doors and pull a long gun from the safe. F'd up day.

Be safe - my wife is from the Twin Cities.

We are on a corner and have a good command view and three stories. fire extinguishers, med supplies, water, hoses with nozzles are all staged. SD gear, too.

It is absolutely weird to hear the same sirens on the feed as I am hearing outside my windows.

[Duke]

“ Gas Approved.

Use that wind to your advantage “

Nice

[1Rangemaster]

We are on a corner and have a good command view and three stories. fire extinguishers, med supplies, water, hoses with nozzles are all staged. SD gear, too.

It is absolutely weird to hear the same sirens on the feed as I am hearing outside my windows.
I can barely imagine; it sounds as if you have thought many things through.
Maybe get off the ‘net for awhile, take a few deep breaths and focus on your family situation.
I lived in the Twin Cities area many years ago; sad and bad situation.
Best wishes for the night.

[TGS]

If this is the legacy these miscreants want to leave behind them, they will have no one to blame but themselves for the ashes left in their wake.

I fail to see how athletic footwear, jerseys and iPhones are going to further the cause of future harmony. Maybe I'm missing something.

Bro I just watched a video stream of a car being blocked by a crowd, and the guy having to reverse-out down the street.

The driver was black.

The people protesting, blocking the driver were.......wait for it..........

white.

You can't make this shit up.

[HCM]

Wow, just wow.

I’m all for marching in the streets, carrying signs and chants in protest of something, even if I disagree with you. But there’s no excuse for that type of violence

Nor is there an excuse for looting under these circumstances. Nothing says social justice like looted electronics. That is not just a reactionary statement. If you are truly upset over what happened to George Floyd, you should be upset with looters disrespecting his memory.

[blues]

Bro I just watched a video stream of a car being blocked by a crowd, and the guy having to reverse-out down the street.

The driver was black.

The people protesting, blocking the driver were.......wait for it..........

white.

You can't make this shit up.

Equal opportunity offenders. I guess word got out he wasn't a Biden supporter.

[5pins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ySDTbaQWno

[5pins]

National Guard activated in MN.

[5pins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAHDcSrCnaE

[ccmdfd]

Nor is there an excuse for looting under these circumstances. Nothing says social justice like looted electronics. That is not just a reactionary statement. If you are truly upset over what happened to George Floyd, you should be upset with looters disrespecting his memory.

Agreed, and when I mentioned violence, it was a general term for the arson, looting and property destruction.

Big question, how do you stop it all?

Years ago there were riots in Charlotte after an OIS involving a black man. It was a justified shoot, he was armed. When the riots started the Chief said leave them alone, let them riot. Well they quickly learned that there were no repercussions for their actions, and they destroyed more and more.

Obviously that's not the answer.

[RevolverRob]

7 short blocks from my house. Not smiling on this really truly beautiful spring day.


Yeah, it's kind of surreal to listen to as I sit in my home outside the 494/694 ring and wondering if things are going to get sketchy here too - as with pretty much everywhere, there are multiple Target stores within 5-10 miles of me.

Lex, olstyn - if you guys need something - let us know. Stay safe.


NYC just kicked off.


And then this drops on Twitter, that the prosecutor announced no charges.
https://twitter.com/JamesAGagliano/status/1266133297442312194

Well, that’s a wrap for Chicago tonight.


Agreed, and when I mentioned violence, it was a general term for the arson, looting and property destruction.

Big question, how do you stop it all?

Years ago there were riots in Charlotte after an OIS involving a black man. It was a justified shoot, he was armed. When the riots started the Chief said leave them alone, let them riot. Well they quickly learned that there were no repercussions for their actions, and they destroyed more and more.

Obviously that's not the answer.

Hickory shampoo.

[olstyn]

Lex, olstyn - if you guys need something - let us know. Stay safe.

I think Lex is in a much more potentially hazardous spot than I am, but pretty much everything feels weird right now. I can't decide whether I should stop listening to the SPPD feed because excess paranoia or keep listening because information. Either way, appreciate the offer of help.

[Mark D]

And then this drops on Twitter, that the prosecutor announced no charges.
https://twitter.com/JamesAGagliano/status/1266133297442312194


It's almost as if city officials sat around before the presser saying, "guys, how can we really kick these riots into high gear?"

FFS, what a mess.

[HCM]

Agreed, and when I mentioned violence, it was a general term for the arson, looting and property destruction.

Big question, how do you stop it all?

Years ago there were riots in Charlotte after an OIS involving a black man. It was a justified shoot, he was armed. When the riots started the Chief said leave them alone, let them riot. Well they quickly learned that there were no repercussions for their actions, and they destroyed more and more.

Obviously that's not the answer.

No, the "room to destroy" thing just encourages more bad behavior.

You can either contain it or take the "Mano Dura" approach and make stupid behavior hurt till its no fun anymore..

[Duke]

“We have approximately 200 in furniture barn. They are setting on fire. Again”

[Caballoflaco]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAHDcSrCnaE

Currently streaming looting on this link @19:24 central

[sickeness]

Plot thickens, the cop and the deceased worked at the same place....

https://kstp.com/news/george-floyd-fired-officer-overlapped-security-shifts-at-south-minneapolis-club-may-28-2020/5743990/?fbclid=IwAR0sQfLzwveCoi6wn8Hlh7R2EdWaR6wAc8q9K3dQ RyX-wfXpMswceIpZ3mc

[5pins]

I think Lex is in a much more potentially hazardous spot than I am, but pretty much everything feels weird right now. I can't decide whether I should stop listening to the SPPD feed because excess paranoia or keep listening because information. Either way, appreciate the offer of help.

If I lived anywhere near there I would be glued to the scanner feed.

[Lex Luthier]

My daughter & son-in-law went to go check on some of the buildings his employer owns close by. I cannot show the pictures, but I can confirm that there are "Roof-top Koreans" protecting their businesses.

[helothar]

My daughter & son-in-law went to go check on some of the buildings his employer owns close by. I cannot show the pictures, but I can confirm that there are "Roof-top Koreans" protecting their businesses.You getting a lot of smoke where you're at? I'm closer to the north end and I just got a whiff of it standing outside

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[11B10]

My daughter & son-in-law went to go check on some of the buildings his employer owns close by. I cannot show the pictures, but I can confirm that there are "Roof-top Koreans" protecting their businesses.



Lex - I'm sure I speak for everyone here: we hope and pray for your safety. What a real life nightmare!

[Lex Luthier]

You getting a lot of smoke where you're at? I'm closer to the north end and I just got a whiff of it standing outside

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Not a lot, but wind is favorable right now.



Lex - I'm sure I speak for everyone here: we hope and pray for your safety. What a real life nightmare!

thanks, 11B10. Will keep everyone posted.

[ccmdfd]

Did you hear the police, on the radio, say that the owners of the tobacco shop next to it are armed?

And have now shot into the air to scare off a crowd

[Lon]

Protests starting in Columbus, OH.

[ralph]

Protests starting in Columbus, OH.

Great..nothing better to get summer started off, than a good old fashioned protest/ riot at the drop of a hat.....

[olstyn]

Great..nothing better to get summer started off, than a good old fashioned protest/ riot at the drop of a hat.....

To be fair, a dead man who, by all indications, should not be dead, and was made that way through the actions of 4 police officers is a bit more than the drop of a hat, but yes, the rioting/looting/arson is straight up bonkers as a response to that situation.

[ralph]

To be fair, a dead man who, by all indications, should not be dead, and was made that way through the actions of 4 police officers is a bit more than the drop of a hat, but yes, the rioting/looting/arson is straight up bonkers as a response to that situation.

I understand that..but why are people in Columbus protesting? It doesn’t have anything to do with them, what I see is some professional paid “community organizers” at work here...The rioting, looting, arson will only hurt the folks in Minneapolis more, every business that was burned, looted, will likely never return to that area, and any investment in that area will stop.. sadly, this just makes things harder on those who weren’t involved....I’ll be honest, I don’t really keep up with the nightly news anymore, my blood pressure thanks me for it.. But, from the sounds of it, there’s plenty of blame to go around...

[blues]

I understand that..but why are people in Columbus protesting? It doesn’t have anything to do with them, what I see is some professional paid “community organizers” at work here...

There's nothing wrong with a show of solidarity around the nation to protest what is viewed as systemic injustice...regardless of where in the nation it rears its head.

It only becomes problematic when the events go beyond peaceful protests with meaningful dialog engendered...and devolve into rioting, looting, arson and mayhem. This should not stand.

I support the right of all Americans to get out and let their representatives and fellow citizens know how they feel...peacefully.

[TAZ]

It's almost as if city officials sat around before the presser saying, "guys, how can we really kick these riots into high gear?"

FFS, what a mess.

Well given the rousing speech from the mayor the other day, it’s not hard to imagine the genius of city “leadership”.

Crappy situation is the understatement of the century.

You guys in the Twin Cities be safe

Not really sure what can be done aside from containment though. Realistically speaking, the media will crucify any department aggressively going after looters and paint them as the Jackbooted thugs of the oppressive white elite wrongfully going after protestors... blah blah blah. Sad, but true.

[ralph]

There's nothing wrong with a show of solidarity around the nation to protest what is viewed as systemic injustice...regardless of where in the nation it rears its head.

It only becomes problematic when the events go beyond peaceful protests with meaningful dialog engendered...and devolve into rioting, looting, arson and mayhem. This should not stand.

No, it shouldn’t..but, here we are..again... And summer is just getting started...

[Not HighSpeed]

3rd precinct has been breached and is being set on fire.

[the Schwartz]

3rd precient has been breached and is being set on fire.

....which contradicts the purpose that some of these folks are purportedly pushing-- the elimination of the police. If anything, their inexcusable behavior demonstrates exactly why we need police.

[olstyn]

I understand that..but why are people in Columbus protesting?

Yeah, the protests in other metro areas do seem extra crazy to me. Their PDs didn't kill George Floyd, after all.

[Cookie Monster]

Back listening to the police dispatch as I tele-work - more looting, more deploying gas.

One thing that keeps coming up is a "board up crew", I might have that wrong. Are those just dudes nailing up plywood on the broken windows? Who has to sign up for that?

Edited - The chief just came on the radio and gave a keep at it, you are doing good work, we appreciate you, and god bless message to all the troops out there.

[the Schwartz]

Yeah, the protests in other metro areas do seem extra crazy to me. Their PDs didn't kill George Floyd, after all.


It is not unusual for the people engaged in protest, and in rioting, to paint all police with a broad brush under circumstances like this. So long as they protest without becoming violent, there is no real harm in doing so. Unfortunately, it seems like this cycle repeats every time we have a terrible event like this. Protests start in one city, spread to another, and when violence ensues in the originating community, it seems to spread elsewhere as well. What a shame.

[nalesq]

I totally get that the officers involved in Floyd’s death were in the wrong. That being said, is there any actual evidence that their wrongness in this matter was specifically motivated by racial animus?

I am not talking about the theory that racism is so socially ingrained that white police officers are automatically racist on at least a subconscious level (which, as a non-white person myself, I think is absurd). I am genuinely curious, did the officers actually do or say anything to suggest that they were racists?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[willie]

About the rioters. If you remove those with low intelligence, addictions, and criminal history, then you could haul the rest away on a Harley with a sidecar. In the 60's they burned down their own neighborhoods, a stunt I never understood. Then the mantra was "Burn, baby, burn." Where is Jesse Jackson and Obama, and why are they not appealing for peace?

Despite my insensitive comments, my opinion is that the officers screwed up, and I sincerely regret that the man died.

[the Schwartz]

I totally get that the officers involved in Floyd’s death were in the wrong. That being said, is there any actual evidence that their wrongness in this matter was specifically motivated by racial animus?

I am not talking about the theory that racism is so socially ingrained that white police officers are automatically racist on at least a subconscious level (which, as a non-white person myself, I think is absurd). I am genuinely curious, did the officers actually do or say anything to suggest that they were racists?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

No evidence yet about racial motivation, however, couple of the officers involved in this do have prior issues in their histories relating to misconduct at prior dates. No idea if any of it was racial in nature or not, but that is thr purpose of bringing in Federal authorities. Unfortunately, none of the thousands of people out rioting in Minneapolis tonight seem to care about the facts or allowing the prosecutor to investigate and uncover the facts. Hopefully, the burning of the MPD 3rd Precinct does not compromise the investigation, but who is to say if crucial information and evidence is not being destroyed as that building burns right now?

[Cookie Monster]

"Approved to dump gas on the door of the CVS"

"We got exposed to a bunch of pepper spray, we'll need some relief."

"On scene at that tobacco store, there is way too many people for us."

"Individuals at Dollar Store with metal posts."

"building is back on fire."

"White Bear liquor, people are in the store."

"Out with a crowd, will not engage directly."

--from the scanner feed

I am two time zones away and I can't turn it off.

Folks are trying to get into a bank, maybe I am too smart but everything is put away when they close. It's not a cartoon or a movie. Doubt any of those folks are safe crackers.

[willie]

They be You Tube'in.

[olstyn]

It is not unusual for the people engaged in protest, and in rioting, to paint all police with a broad brush under circumstances like this. So long as they protest without becoming violent, there is no real harm in doing so. Unfortunately, it seems like this cycle repeats every time we have a terrible event like this. Protests start in one city, spread to another, and when violence ensues in the originating community, it seems to spread elsewhere as well. What a shame.

I think the harm is that it spreads that particular viewpoint to a wider audience, much like the "slow-moving riot" theory that was presented about school shootings. The more people see rioting happen, the more time and opportunity there is for whatever portion of them are on the edge to decide that they want to join in, rinse and repeat. :(

[HCM]

Police attempting to render aid to Rioter shot by a pawnshop owner.


https://youtu.be/8ljt067oDfQ

[Caballoflaco]

This asshole is back and filming folks committing crimes


https://youtu.be/EJnclb6Y6qo

[0ddl0t]

I support the right of all Americans to get out and let their representatives and fellow citizens know how they feel...peacefully.
Peaceful protests work fine for little stuff, but not for systemic changes. Tibet is going on what, 60 years of peaceful protest?

[the Schwartz]

I think the harm is that it spreads that particular viewpoint to a wider audience, much like the "slow-moving riot" theory that was presented about school shootings. The more people see rioting happen, the more time and opportunity there is for whatever portion of them are on the edge to decide that they want to join in, rinse and repeat. :(

Yep, this sort of thing certainly seems to be becoming 'normalized'. Looks like some sort of similar behavior (burning stuff in the streets) is beginning to kick-off in St. Louis, Mo.

[Caballoflaco]

Police attempting to render aid to Rioter shot by a pawnshop owner.


https://youtu.be/8ljt067oDfQ

Chest compressions on people suffering from hemorrhage when the bleeding hasn’t been stopped only kills them faster, but it looks good to the uninformed.

[HCM]

Peaceful protests work fine for little stuff, but not for systemic changes. Tibet is going on what, 60 years of peaceful protest?

Ghandi might disagree.


https://youtu.be/jqa9Gb-QDik

The effectiveness of peaceful protest depends on the powers that be having a conscience.

The Chinese Communist Party doesn’t have a conscience but this isn’t Tibet. It’s a constitutional republic with a functioning judiciary so save the bullshit.

[Cookie Monster]

"Five white males in their 20's left the Motel 6 in Roseville in a black sedan with Texas plate. It is reported they have 5 AR's with them and headed to one of the protest sites - unknown where"

"This is going to go on all night"

"Fire is pulling away from the scene." (I could be wrong but I think the crowds got too crazy and they are just letting The Foot Locker Burn - which is spreading to other buildings - "Yep it is the whole complex" - hard to follow everything coming through while teleworking)

- via scanner feed

Lots of reports of shots fired that get followed up on to have no signs of shots fired.

[Paul D]

Ghandi might disagree.


https://youtu.be/jqa9Gb-QDik

The effectiveness of peaceful protest depends on the powers that be having a conscience.

The Chinese Communist Party doesn’t have a conscience but this isn’t Tibet. It’s a constitutional republic with a functioning judiciary so save the bullshit.

Other successful peaceful protests in the US includes the Montgomery Bus Boycott in the 50's (Rosa Parks) and Delano grape boycott (Cesar Chavez).

[HCM]

Chest compressions on people suffering from hemorrhage whien the bleeding hasn’t been stopped only kills them faster, but it looks good to the uninformed.

It also looks good to a hostile crowd who are too stupid to listen to the guy telling them the police didn’t shoot the guy on the ground. I would not be surprised if the victim was dead as a door nail and the compressions are solely to mollify the crowd.

On a side note,

Out of a dozen CPR applications I’m personally / professional familiar with all but two were unsuccessful and both of those involved kids. One was a co-worker who performed CPR on a child found floating face down in a hotel pool and the other was my dad on a kid who had been playing at a construction site and was buried in a cave in.

I’m personally 0-2 on CPR.

[Not HighSpeed]

Now being reported that the MPD 5th precinct is being abandoned now like the 3rd was before it was overrun and burned.

[the Schwartz]

Well, the media is now reporting that a gas line has been, or may about to be, breached at the 3rd precinct. The media is also asking the rioters to move away from the scene for fear that an explosion may result in further loss of life. I wonder how many will actually heed the warning, but confidence is not high at this time.

[HCM]

Other successful peaceful protests in the US includes the Montgomery Bus Boycott in the 50's (Rosa Parks) and Delano grape boycott (Cesar Chavez).

All evidence that MLK was right and Stokely Carmichael was wrong.

[Yung]

It's not looking good for that pawn shop owner.

https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/john-rieple/

[HCM]

"Five white males in their 20's left the Motel 6 in Roseville in a black sedan with Texas plate. It is reported they have 5 AR's with them and headed to one of the protest sites - unknown where"

"This is going to go on all night"

- via scanner feed


Lots of reports of shots fired that get followed up on to have no signs of shots fired.

The five white males thing sounds like BS but Darwin never sleeps.

Shots fired reports are a way to get the police to show up / show up quicker for other reasons.

Some shots are being fired though:


https://youtu.be/SXuNYIxX56U

[Caballoflaco]

It also looks good to a hostile crowd who are too stupid to listen to the guy telling them the police didn’t shoot the guy on the ground. I would not be surprised if the victim was dead as a door nail and the compressions are solely to mollify the crowd.

On a side note,

Out of a dozen CPR applications I’m personally / professional familiar with all but two were unsuccessful and both of those involved kids. One was a co-worker who performed CPR on a child found floating face down in a hotel pool and the other was my dad on a kid who had been playing at a construction site and was buried in a cave in.

I’m personally 0-2 on CPR.

Optics is definitely a thing and I meant no ill will towards the cops in that video.

I’ve got a good friend who works with people who were resuscitated with cpr every day. She has told me that under no circumstances should I perform or allow others to perform cpr on her if immediate medical assistance is more than 3 minutes out.

[Lex Luthier]

Now being reported that the MPD 5th precinct is being abandoned now like the 3rd was before it was overrun and burned.

Oh jeez. Back onto the scanner feed here across the river. I need to look up where the 5th Precinct is located. I don't know Minneapolis nearly as well as St Paul.

Edit: Well, shit. The 5th District encompasses the nicest and most historical neighborhoods in Minneapolis, all around the lakes. And it is also where my very cool in-laws and several of my wife's cousins, as well as a couple of good friends live. (the last two closest to the precinct HQ.) Good luck to the MPD tonight.

[HCM]

It's not looking good for that pawn shop owner.

https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/john-rieple/

I wouldn’t read too much into it.

Under current circumstances there is no way he is NOT getting arrested. Both for appearances and for his own safety.

The resources to do a preliminary investigation are likely not available anyway. The DA or the grand jury will have to sort it out later.

[Cookie Monster]

It also looks good to a hostile crowd who are too stupid to listen to the guy telling them the police didn’t shoot the guy on the ground. I would not be surprised if the victim was dead as a door nail and the compressions are solely to mollify the crowd.

On a side note,

Out of a dozen CPR applications I’m personally / professional familiar with all but two were unsuccessful and both of those involved kids. One was a co-worker who performed CPR on a child found floating face down in a hotel pool and the other was my dad on a kid who had been playing at a construction site and was buried in a cave in.

I’m personally 0-2 on CPR.

I did CPR on an ICU patient during my EMT training rotation at a small ER back in the day. Scared out my skull and I hope to never do anything like that again. I am not a very good EMT.

From my limited experience and less limited training/reading - if the heart stopping/getting jacked up is from Trauma CPR is close to useless.

[Cookie Monster]

The five white males thing sounds like BS but Darwin never sleeps.


Most likely, they repeated it over the radio several times and made sure everyone was aware.

I can see some militia folks getting excited to hold order and "protect", like the Bundy Ranch thing but yea the Texas plates seems like someone was selling it to the police.

[Lex Luthier]

FYI for you scanner listeners, Roseville is directly north of St Paul, (separated by the State Fairgrounds and a tiny little attached town called Falcon Heights, site of the Philando Castile shooting) and is fed in via several N-S arteries.
It's less than 7 minutes from here. An east west freeway (highway 36) runs through the north part of it.

it's amazing to me that the same locations keep being torched repeatedly. Can anyone explain why that might be? Just to tie up resources?

[Caballoflaco]

“2nd precinct is happening now” from one of the streamers.


You stay safe now Minnesota peeps.

But seriously, shit is getting looney. Please check in when you can.

[HCM]

Most likely, they repeated it over the radio several times and made sure everyone was aware.

I can see some militia folks getting excited to hold order and "protect", like the Bundy Ranch thing but yea the Texas plates seems like someone was selling it to the police.

Traditional “milita types,” like from the 1990s are not really a thing but there are a whole spectrum of right wing extremist groups ranging from various White Supremacist groups to non racist nihilist / accelerationist “boogaloo boys” who just want to see the world burn so they can impose a new social order. There are some open carry and III%er patriot groups in the middle.

[Cookie Monster]

"We're going to have to get creative with resources, guys."

-via scanner feed

Signing off for the night.

Minnesota peeps stay safe.

[HCM]

Optics is definitely a thing and I meant no ill will towards the cops in that video.

I’ve got a good friend who works with people who were resuscitated with cpr every day. She has told me that under no circumstances should I perform or allow others to perform cpr on her if immediate medical assistance is more than 3 minutes out.

AED is like 4x more effective.

[willie]

Where is the National Guard?

[HCM]

Local TV news reporter caught adding fake gunshots to report. This is my not shocked face...


https://youtu.be/2ogf5GZMjqE

[HCM]

54957

[olstyn]

No action on my security cameras overnight, which is relieving. My wife and I were kind of nervous going to bed last night, and I don't think either of us slept well, loaded guns in easy reach for both of us notwithstanding. There was apparently some significant activity at a mall within only a few miles of us last night.

Edit: HCM, that Spongebob meme is...um...well, let's just say it's both kind of horrible and also made me laugh.

[Zincwarrior]

No action on my security cameras overnight, which is relieving. My wife and I were kind of nervous going to bed last night, and I don't think either of us slept well, loaded guns in easy reach for both of us notwithstanding. There was apparently some significant activity at a mall within only a few miles of us last night.

Edit: HCM, that Spongebob meme is...um...well, let's just say it's both kind of horrible and also made me laugh.
Sounds like all PFers are ok at this point. Excellent. Stay safe. :D

[Lon]

Well Columbus took a big hit last night. Looting, burning and they tried to break into the state house. Made it through the outer set of the doors and then were confronted by state troopers coming from the inside and they took off. Trashed downtown Columbus pretty bad.

[RJ]

My daughter & son-in-law went to go check on some of the buildings his employer owns close by. I cannot show the pictures, but I can confirm that there are "Roof-top Koreans" protecting their businesses.


You getting a lot of smoke where you're at? I'm closer to the north end and I just got a whiff of it standing outside

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

You guys ok?

[BehindBlueI's]

Peaceful protests work fine for little stuff, but not for systemic changes. Tibet is going on what, 60 years of peaceful protest?

Did I wake up in Tibet? You could affect systematic change here by getting everybody who doesn't vote to vote for your candidate.


Where is the National Guard?

What, exactly, do you think the NG will do?

[Nephrology]

AED is like 4x more effective.

Depends on the etiology of the arrest. AED will do you no good if they are in PEA - won't even fire. Even then, ultimately good quality chest compressions are the only thing that will send blood from their heart to their brain, which is what is actively dying every second that it does not get life-sustaining, freshly oxygenated blood from the heart.

In field cardiac arrests are hard because time is brain, if the patient has an unwitnessed cardiac arrest with an unknown amount of down time, odds aren't great. If they arrest and immediately get high quality CPR, and the etiology of their arrest can be treated (i.e. hypothermia, hyperkalemic arrest in a ESRD patient), they have much better odds. Always worth giving it your best good faith effort in the field.

Trauma arrests (GSW, high mech MVC/blunt injury) dont do so hot.


I did CPR on an ICU patient during my EMT training rotation at a small ER back in the day. Scared out my skull and I hope to never do anything like that again. I am not a very good EMT.

From my limited experience and less limited training/reading - if the heart stopping/getting jacked up is from Trauma CPR is close to useless.

Yeah per above. Trauma arrests are bad news. That said it depends on the etiology of arrest and how fast they get to a good trauma surgeon. Penetrating trauma arrests (i.e. GSW) tend to do better at our institution (~10-15% survive to d/c) - we have good trauma surgeons and mostly if they are in tamponade or limited injury to myocardium/GVs then its a problem that can be addressed surgically.

If you get your chest run over by a city bus and you're bleeding from basically every solid organ between your neck and your pelvis, then no, CPR is not going to help you at all.

The worst thing about chest compressions besides the rib crunching is how sweaty I get. I always end up sweating on the patient which I find kind of gross for reasons that are hard to articulate.

[RJ]

What, exactly, do you think the NG will do?

Obviously I'm not law enforcement, and this is only from my personal .civ Florida post-Hurricane context, the NG can:

- Provide a physical uniformed presence in the streets (augmenting the physical uniformed presence normally provided by LEO)

This might be nothing more than a couple Guardsman standing next to a Humvee. But as a citizen, it does provide a sense of "order". This may or may not be imaginary, but it does help me feel better knowing "someone" is out there "in authority".

- Assist leo in providing additional vehicles, transport services, electronic/communication

Additional vehicles could offer transport to local leo teams, if local leo team's squad got burned up or wrecked in violence. Communications/radios same; a NG team could offer to set up additional radio nets.

- Assist leo and first responders by making available trained medical personnel

Medical staff attached to NG units could support local medical personnel dealing with emergencies brought by crowd violence.

- Obviously if things go really south, protection of life and limb from armed and dangerous looting crowds, NG have significant weaponry availble; but I am (very) far out of my lane here in terms of discussing the pros and cons of armed use of force by Military personnel on US soil against US citizens. I have a feeling that's a whole different can of worms.


Just my 0.02. Obviously we have a fair number of actual LEO here and I would welcome their (and your) viewpoint. I would have hoped that local emergency services would have had a think on this well in advance, and have a game plan in place to execute. But from the shitshow we've seen on the news so far, maybe that's not the case.