When Criminals Carry Unholstered

[cclaxton]

I once read that an LE said he has never seen a criminal wear a holster. His theory is that they may want to ditch the gun and the holster becomes additional evidence that he has to ditch or if found, connects him back to the gun.

1) First, for the LE/ex-LE's here: Can you confirm that?
2) Assuming that is mostly true, does this put a holstered concealed carry holder at an advantage or a disadvantage? (I would think an advantage because carrying without a holster would make the draw more difficult)
3) Does that give a criminal a further disadvantage of early detection because he/she will more likely give himself/herself away in their gait, clothing, gun-check, etc.?

CC

[secondstoryguy]

I've seen holsters but typically most carry "mexican" style with no holster. The holsters I've seen the most off are the cheap floppy gun show nylon kind. As far as an advantage/disadvantage goes it could go either way, it's really splitting hairs. If they are reacting to you it could put them behind the curve but if they are planning on jacking you they will probably have their hand on it or have it out so it doesn't matter much. Spotting a non-holster wearing BG can be touch and go. Overall I'd just say don't underestimate anyone and train hard....holster or not some guys can get a gun out pretty damned fast and you'll never tell they are carrying.

[Chuck Haggard]

In 25 years of dealing with bad guys I can think of maybe a handful of guys wearing holsters, none of them quality gear.

I like that bad guys don't wear holsters. The other night we just had one try to bail out of the car after a chase and pull his gun at the same time, flubbed the draw on his waistband and the gun went flying out of his hand across the street.

Shooting themselves in the leg and/or junk because of a loose gun in their pants is another activity I approve of highly.

[voodoo_man]

I have had many run in's with criminals carrying guns.

The only time I have ever seen one in a holster is because he stole it that way, and he had the spare mag too.

Rest are more concerned with getting rid of the gun on flight.

[MangPol]

cheap holster saved me once...

the A-hole drew on me with a loaded 1911...

front sight caught on the cheap holster...

he drew the gun along with the holster...

he could not pull tigger...

had time for me and my team to wrestle the gun way from him...

turns out the a-hole was himself an intoxicated off-duty LEO...

[cclaxton]

This confirms what I was thinking. But sounds like good advice to make sure I can still be faster than them.

While I have LE's looking at this thread....

If I catch a bad-guy in my house and am holding him at gunpoint, and I need to wait for LE to show up, what is the best way to handle the situation at that point? (try to tie-wrap his hands?, Step away and continue to hold the gun?, etc.)

When I took my 4-day handgun training at Front Sight, I asked the intructor that question and he said, "I don't know...tough situation."
CC

[secondstoryguy]

I have had many run in's with criminals carrying guns.

The only time I have ever seen one in a holster is because he stole it that way, and he had the spare mag too.

Rest are more concerned with getting rid of the gun on flight.

+1 This mirrors my experience...usually when they have holsters they got it with the gun when it was stolen.

[secondstoryguy]

This confirms what I was thinking. But sounds like good advice to make sure I can still be faster than them.

While I have LE's looking at this thread....

If I catch a bad-guy in my house and am holding him at gunpoint, and I need to wait for LE to show up, what is the best way to handle the situation at that point? (try to tie-wrap his hands?, Step away and continue to hold the gun?, etc.)

When I took my 4-day handgun training at Front Sight, I asked the intructor that question and he said, "I don't know...tough situation."
CC

That is a tough one and a relatively big "what-if". IMHO most of the time when BGs are faced with a gun toting homeowner they just bolt. If he didn't merit shooting right away, the subject was compliant(not likely), and he can understand commands(he speaks english), I'd prone him out lying flat on his face with his arms out and tell him to lie still. Cover him with the gun and wait for the cops. But that's kinda awkward as it's going to be a long 10-15 minutes waiting for LE to arrive, with the BG knowing he's going to go to jail the whole time and thinking about doing something about it.

[Al T.]

I've held folks and handcuffed same. In my role as a cake eating civilian, no way, no how. I'm also probably not going to render first aid as getting close is just a bad idea.

Call for an ambulance? Yes. Suggest they stop the bleeding? Yes. Go all CLS on him? No.

As the famous pithy comment generator Clint Smith once said:
Proximity deletes skill. Distance is your friend.

As I was typing this, one thing occurred to me. If the bad guy is between you and your family, one, make sure they know not to get close. Two, if you need to get past the BG (hallway as an example), I'd do so only as a last resort and maintain the ability to fire immediately if needed.

[voodoo_man]

If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag.

[David Armstrong]

This confirms what I was thinking. But sounds like good advice to make sure I can still be faster than them.

While I have LE's looking at this thread....

If I catch a bad-guy in my house and am holding him at gunpoint, and I need to wait for LE to show up, what is the best way to handle the situation at that point? (try to tie-wrap his hands?, Step away and continue to hold the gun?, etc.)

When I took my 4-day handgun training at Front Sight, I asked the intructor that question and he said, "I don't know...tough situation."
CC
I always ask why do you want to keep him around? Tell him to stay put, the pollice are on their way, but I certainly wouldn't get close enough to secure him, and if he decided to run away I'm not going to try very hard to stop him.

[David Armstrong]

If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag.
So you would advocate killing a person without any real need? Bad idea. Way too easy to turn a minor incident into a major problem.

[voodoo_man]

So you would advocate killing a person without any real need? Bad idea. Way too easy to turn a minor incident into a major problem.

Is that what I said or did you just take my words and assume it?

Around here if a person enters your home, while you/your family are occupying it, then that is classified as a "home invasion." Those rarely turn out well for the homeowners.

[Corlissimo]

Just a Regular Guy here, and I've often contemplated this scenario, so I'm interested in the LE responses to the "holding the BG at gunpoint" position. Not trying to hijack or drift this thread, and I'm sure there are many ways to skin a cat, so thoughts, opinions, and options for these types of scenarios interest me.

Assuming there is only one BG, the plan I've formulated to protect me and mine is to, from a safe distance:

1. prone the BG out
2. call 911 for LE/EMT as needed (wife can do this if she's there)
3. send family outside to inform LE I'm holding BG at gunpoint
4. cover him until LE arrives on scene

Of course, my plan could quite possibly go out the window if there are multiple intruders as the difficulty of executing the same steps on more than on BG seems like it would be highly risky, depending on how many intruders there actually are as well as if any/all of them are compliant or not.

I would anticipate having great difficulty managing this type of scene solo and would probably not attempt it unless they were completely "wuss-ified" by whichever firearm I am holding. Barring complete compliance, I'd let whoever wanted to run away do so. I wouldn't like it, but we don't always have to like the crap life drops on our heads.

Good or bad?

[Al T.]

1. prone the BG out

I'd let whoever wanted to run away do so

Screw anything other than having them leave or get shot (again). If a BG is in my perimeter, I want him gone.

[Tamara]

I always ask why do you want to keep him around? Tell him to stay put, the pollice are on their way, but I certainly wouldn't get close enough to secure him, and if he decided to run away I'm not going to try very hard to stop him.

This.^^^

The Bad Guy taking to his heels is my first, best, and preferred option.

[cclaxton]

So here is what I got out of this so far:

1) Let him run if he is so inclined;
2) Keep my distance and don't attempt to restrain him;
3) Don't kill him just because he is there as long as he is being compliant and/or running away;
4) If another BG in the house, get him out/running and go look for the other one;
5) Have family exit house and tell LE what's going on when they arrive.

Obviously, if he is armed with a firearm or a knife and is making a move, two to the center mass.

OK?
CC

[Coyotesfan97]

I had a guy carrying a revolver in the small of his back in a homemade (with staples) cardboard holster one time.

[voodoo_man]

Just an FYI for the guys wanting to hold people at gunpoint.

When the police show up, you are going to be held at gun point.

The best option:

At gunpoint
Prone the guy out, on his stomach while standing at his feet.
Call 911, or have someone else call 911.
Holster your gun but do not move and continue to yell commands at him.
When the police show up, tell them to cuff him.
Then tell them you have a gun holstered.

[HCM]

Just an FYI for the guys wanting to hold people at gunpoint.

When the police show up, you are going to be held at gun point.

The best option:

At gunpoint
Prone the guy out, on his stomach while standing at his feet.
Call 911, or have someone else call 911.
Holster your gun but do not move and continue to yell commands at him.
When the police show up, tell them to cuff him.
Then tell them you have a gun holstered.

Just to clarify "at his feet" - behind him if possible because you want to be where he cannot see you. If not possible, you can order the BG turn his head.

Whomever calls 911 should describe your physical appearance and make clear that you are the home owner and you are armed. Have them repeat this to LE outside when they arrive. It will reduce your chances of being mistaken for a BG.

Despite this, when the police show up, you are still likely to be held at gun point, disarmed, handcuffed and generally treated like a suspect - expect it and don't take it personally - it will all get sorted out.

[voodoo_man]

Just to clarify "at his feet" - behind him if possible because you want to be where he cannot see you. If not possible, you can order the BG turn his head.

Whomever calls 911 should describe your physical appearance and make clear that you are the home owner and you are armed. Have them repeat this to LE outside when they arrive. It will reduce your chances of being mistaken for a BG.

Despite this, when the police show up, you are still likely to be held at gun point, disarmed, handcuffed and generally treated like a suspect - expect it and don't take it personally - it will all get sorted out.

At his feet meaning if he is prone you are standing by his toes looking at his back and the back of his head a few feet away from you. You holster your gun because you should be able to draw and fire from a holster, concealed or otherwise under the time it would take him to get up or anything of that sort. So when the police show up, you point at him saying "he's the criminal, arrest him." After they cuff him, put your hands up and say "I am the homeowner and I have a gun on my *insert location here* "

If the police show up and you have a gun in your hand, your chances of being shot are VERY high, especially if you are pointing it at someone.

[David Armstrong]

Is that what I said or did you just take my words and assume it?
Here is what yo said: "If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag." Now if that does not mean that you should kill them every time I'm open to other interpretations.

Around here if a person enters your home, while you/your family are occupying it, then that is classified as a "home invasion." Those rarely turn out well for the homeowners.
OK, not sure what that has to do with "If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag" but I guess it is nice to know.

[voodoo_man]

Here is what yo said: "If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag." Now if that does not mean that you should kill them every time I'm open to other interpretations.

OK, not sure what that has to do with "If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag" but I guess it is nice to know.

Listen if you want to carry on from that other thread, by all means PM me and we can do this without an audience, but please do not target my posts for your semantics because you are upset with what was posted in another thread.

[JDM]

Please, stay on the original topic.

If you've got particular nits to pick, do so privately.

[David Armstrong]

Listen if you want to carry on from that other thread, by all means PM me and we can do this without an audience, but please do not target my posts for your semantics because you are upset with what was posted in another thread.
Not sure what you are talking about, it has nothing to do with the other thread and I doubt that I would care enough about what you posted to get upset about it. A statement was made that "If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag." I find that statement to be rather reckless and pretty poor advice. Nothing more to it than that.

[voodoo_man]

Not sure what you are talking about, it has nothing to do with the other thread and I doubt that I would care enough about what you posted to get upset about it. A statement was made that "If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag." I find that statement to be rather reckless and pretty poor advice. Nothing more to it than that.


Thanks for the insult.

Its pretty clear where you stand.

Ill be with holding my participation in the future, as its obviously going to nitpicked by you.

[cdunn]

If a BG is in your home, especially while you/your family is there, the only way he should be taken out is in a body bag.

yeah, what he said,ig BG is in my house detaining him isn't going to be an issue.

[Tamara]

ig<sic> BG is in my house detaining him isn't going to be an issue.

Whether you detain him or not is up to him, not you.

[TCinVA]

yeah, what he said,ig BG is in my house detaining him isn't going to be an issue.

At AMIS last year a scenario came up which involved the potential to detain, or shoot an unarmed intruder.

In a course filled with gun guys who would face no legal repercussions for shooting a roleplayer with a sims round, to my knowledge nobody shot the intruder. SouthNarc had a comment on the situation that I don't remember in its entirety, but it boiled down to it taking an extraordinary mindset to simply pop a guy who isn't an obvious threat. And by "obvious" I mean somebody who isn't presenting the sort of threat that gives you the uncontrollable unction to shoot the bastard now.

Most people probably don't have to worry about detaining a bad guy because they'll likely bolt when somebody with a gun looks serious. Managing a potentially hostile contact can be tricky and so it's probably best for everyone if the bad guy does run. It's preferable to be giving a description of the guy to the cops than to have your kids listening to the guy gurgle out his last labored breaths in your living room.

I'm not saying you let an intruder have his way. I'm not saying that if you're presented with a legit threat that you roll over.

...but popping somebody because they're in the wrong place sounds like a better plan than it turns out to be in real life.

[David Armstrong]

I'm not saying you let an intruder have his way. I'm not saying that if you're presented with a legit threat that you roll over.

...but popping somebody because they're in the wrong place sounds like a better plan than it turns out to be in real life.
Exactly. Some of these cliches lose a lot when one actually takes a moment to look at them with some logic. I can envision plenty of instances where killing someone in your home can make things far worse in the overall scheme of things. When you have the results you describe at AMIS it should be a good indicator to others that "kill them because you can" really isn't a particularly good game plan.

[jthhapkido]

Exactly. Some of these cliches lose a lot when one actually takes a moment to look at them with some logic. I can envisoin plenty of instances where killilng someone in your home can make things far worse in the overall scheme of things. When you have the results you describe at AMIS it should be a good indicator to others that "kill them because you can" really isn't a particularly good game plan.

Not to mention that announcing it on a public forum isn't a great idea either.

[LtDave]

In 28 years of LE, I can recall maybe one instance of a bad guy carrying in a holster. Don't recall ever recovering any spare mags. Lots of guns loaded with multiple types/brands of ammo.

[baddean]

So here is what I got out of this so far:

1) Let him run if he is so inclined;
2) Keep my distance and don't attempt to restrain him;
3) Don't kill him just because he is there as long as he is being compliant and/or running away;
4) If another BG in the house, get him out/running and go look for the other one;
5) Have family exit house and tell LE what's going on when they arrive.

Obviously, if he is armed with a firearm or a knife and is making a move, two to the center mass.

OK?
CC

Since this thread has wandered around a bit from the original thought I'm hoping that posters here will allow me to address a comment made earlier in the thread.
In the quote above I agree with the poster on items 1-3
Number 4 I only partially agree with in that if I have the BG running for the door and I and my family are in a safe place in the house I will stay with them and wait for LE to show and not go searching for other BGs. I'll defend my safe area while on the phone with the 911 operator.
Number 5 I strongly disagree with in that if I know where my family is and they are with me and safe (or secure) I will certainly not have my family exit the house not knowing if other BGs are outside waiting for their buddy. We can let LE know what's going on through the 911 operator.
Sending my family somewhere that hasn't been cleared just seems like a bad idea to me.
Thanks for letting me comment even though off of the original post.

[cclaxton]

Since this thread has wandered around a bit from the original thought I'm hoping that posters here will allow me to address a comment made earlier in the thread.
In the quote above I agree with the poster on items 1-3
Number 4 I only partially agree with in that if I have the BG running for the door and I and my family are in a safe place in the house I will stay with them and wait for LE to show and not go searching for other BGs. I'll defend my safe area while on the phone with the 911 operator.
Number 5 I strongly disagree with in that if I know where my family is and they are with me and safe (or secure) I will certainly not have my family exit the house not knowing if other BGs are outside waiting for their buddy. We can let LE know what's going on through the 911 operator.
Sending my family somewhere that hasn't been cleared just seems like a bad idea to me.
Thanks for letting me comment even though off of the original post.

Dean,
These are very good comments. Of course, there is no reason to go after the other BG unless I would be concerned about the safety of others. And, reallly good point about knowing that the family will be safe and the area I send them would be cleared whether outside or inside.
Good thinking....appreciate you pointing that out.

Thanks,
CC

[baddean]

Thanks CC,
I've put a lot of thought and effort in to how I will defend my home and loved ones.
There's no "one size fits all" scenario when it comes to defending ones home. We each have to develope a plan that best fits our individual circumstances.

Back to the OP. My father was a Cincinnati Police Officer for 25 years (retired in 1981) and doesn't recall ever taking a gun from a BG that was secured in a holster.
Polling a couple of friends that are in LE we found few instances where a BG secured a firearm in a hoster. They did offer that in many cases the BG only had the ammo that was loaded in the firearm and many times it was not even loaded to capacity.