Forward Mounted (ahead of the ejection port) Optics?

[Erick Gelhaus]

I've heard Darryl and a couple of other people mention the concept of mounting the optic towards the front of the slide.

Has anyone done it? Seen it? Or even better, have photos and experience?

In advance, thanks.

Erick

[okie john]

Tagged.

Let’s see the holsters, too.


Okie John

[Wayne Dobbs]

Erick,

I don't think there's anything like that in production. That is a concept that I believe we will end up with in say, five to 10 years. It makes sense to have the optic forward of the ejection port. My vision of this is a very small, streamlined, radiused triangle profile optic that presents at the iron sight level. Gun comes to eyeline and you see the dot where you're used to seeing the irons and press the trigger. We will see whether that has merit at some point.

[Poconnor]

Anybody try the ALG six second mount?

[TCB]

I shot a Glock with a 6 second mount and a T-1 years ago, it was my 1st time shooting a pistol with a dot. It was like shooting a hand held rifle, I liked it. Non reciprocating dots on handguns will be the future if someone can crack the code.

[whomever]

I'm in the RDS curious stage, I just played around with a Deltapoint on an old bullseye gun that had a full length pic rail. The forward mount might have made it a bit easier, but not by much. This may reflect a lack of skill as much as anything.

I have been playing with a Fastfire on a 22/45. What has worked best so far was I 3D printed a tall front sight. It's maybe 3/4 of an inch high (because the Fastfire is on a tall mount already). The height makes it cowitness with the dot, i.e. presentation just like with iron sights, with the red dot acting like a giant rear aperture. This may just work well for me because I'm an old dog who has trouble learning new tricks. Having the monster front sight doesn't seem any more problematic holster-wise than putting the RDS out there.

Heck, if the dot failed, you could still use the RDS as a giant ghost ring.

Again, no extensive experience, in fact almost no experience, just me futzing around.

[Caballoflaco]

The one negative with that position is that the farther the dot is moved from being directly above the deepest curve in the backstrap the more the dot moves in the window due to any torquing or misalignment.

A great example of an industry that has figured this out is archery, where the contact point of the arrow is almost always centered above the deepest part of the grip to minimize any effects of torquing the grip.

Here’s a quick and crappy mark-up On a photo I got off the internet

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[DpdG]

SilencerCo showed a non-NFA variation of their Maxim 9 last year that was almost exactly what is being discussed, with the benefit of the optic being non-reciprocating.
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[Dagga Boy]

Well....as a positive I didn’t get called a complete idiot here who doesn’t know anything about shooting red dots like other places.....so that is kind of nice.

[HCM]

SilencerCo showed a non-NFA variation of their Maxim 9 last year that was almost exactly what is being discussed, with the benefit of the optic being non-reciprocating.
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The Laugo Arms Alien could accommodate that as well.

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[Wise_A]

I have seen optics mounted that way in NRA precision pistol (rimfire). I have not seen them mounted that way by anyone in that sport that I'd be interested in emulating. Something to note is that it's quite common for pistols to have full-length rails (making such a mounting easy), and the competitive guns are all blowbacks. I've tried mounting some tube-style 'dots over the ejection port and found the position to be...awkward, I guess, even when the weight balance wasn't noticeably different. I've also mounted Ultradots with both rings on the forward portion of the sight, allowing the rear to overhang the back of the pistol--same problem.

Upon trying out a red dot on an N-frame revolver, which placed the 'dot forward of the rear sight, I encountered the same problem, exacerbated by the fact that a revolver is further out in front of your hand.

I would say that the ideal placement is right above the grip. Moving the sight forward or rearward causes the entire sight move out of the line of sight under recoil.


Well....as a positive I didn’t get called a complete idiot here who doesn’t know anything about shooting red dots like other places.....so that is kind of nice.

Because P-F isn't shit.

[DpdG]

The Laugo Arms Alien could accommodate that as well.



Never handled the Alien or the un-suppressed Maxim. The Maxim I have shot was the long variant of suppressor- it was clunky feeling and the trigger sucked. I suspect holster design limitations could limit the success of the concept.

[Bucky]

Forward mounted optics might be a little awkward for IWB.



I shot a Glock with a 6 second mount and a T-1 years ago, it was my 1st time shooting a pistol with a dot. It was like shooting a hand held rifle, I liked it. Non reciprocating dots on handguns will be the future if someone can crack the code.

Kind of like what we’ve been doing on USPSA open guns for 30 years now, but smaller and more practical? Of recent, I have seen some pretty compact mounts that might actually work, though they require a steel frame handgun.

I’ve seen a few guys that actually do a slide mounted optic on their open guns, but given the choice I prefer a non reciprocating dot.

[awp_101]

What is the benefit of moving the sight further away from the fulcrum of the pistol grip and my grip? I'm still in the training wheels stage of dots on pistols so this isn't snark, I'm genuinely curious.

I've read it's "better" to mount dots as close to your eye as possible on long guns (which I can neither prove nor disprove), is there a reason that wouldn't hold true for hand guns as well?

[Caballoflaco]

Well....as a positive I didn’t get called a complete idiot here who doesn’t know anything about shooting red dots like other places.....so that is kind of nice.

My original post wasn’t meant as a slight, it was just an equipment related observation from a sport that I participate in at a higher level of accomplishment and experience than shooting handguns, I thought that there may possibly be some overlap.

I know that I and, I’m sure everyone else here would genuinely like to hear your thoughts on foward dot placement. I don’t know what I don’t know and am always open to new ideas and learning.

[Super77]

I've read it's "better" to mount dots as close to your eye as possible on long guns (which I can neither prove nor disprove), is there a reason that wouldn't hold true for hand guns as well?

I’ve actually found the opposite, within reason. Mounting the dot about at the front of the upper receiver provides better peripheral and I think less parallax than toward the rear.

[TCB]

Forward mounted optics might be a little awkward for IWB.




Kind of like what we’ve been doing on USPSA open guns for 30 years now, but smaller and more practical? Of recent, I have seen some pretty compact mounts that might actually work, though they require a steel frame handgun.

I’ve seen a few guys that actually do a slide mounted optic on their open guns, but given the choice I prefer a non reciprocating dot.

Exactly. Stuff that is initially cutting edge for competition seems to become std for duty / defensive gear later... Look at the difference in times / overall scores between Open and Carry Optics now, some of it may be mag capacity & minor scoring but I think the biggest advantage is the non reciprocating dot. An easily carried, reliable & reasonably priced pistol (duty rig &/or CCW) with a dot that doesn’t move I think will be the next major evolution for handguns. It’s a big ask but it’ll happen eventually unless phased plasma weapons comes first. I’d be good with either...:cool:

[philpac33]

54454
I can’t tell you much about it but my buddy sent me this pic last month. He was at a client’s home and when the subject of firearms came up he couldn’t resist showing off his considerable collection. I didn’t know it was even possible to mill that area of the slide.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I can’t tell you much about it but my buddy sent me this pic last month. He was at a client’s home and when the subject of firearms came up he couldn’t resist showing off his considerable collection. I didn’t know it was even possible to mill that area of the slide.

Thank you.

[UNM1136]

If I were in plain clothes I would be all over this, probably with a custom holster or Crye Gunclip. Unfortunately I am in uniform, and likely will be for the rest of my career, so I need a duty type holster if this were to become reality.

pat

[El Cid]

Anybody try the ALG six second mount?

I have this one and the RMR version on a G17. They are a dream to shoot and feel more like cheating than any handgun configuration I’ve tried. But as you can see concealing would be tough and even a duty holster will be larger than most would prefer.

Also the 6SM requires removal of the rear iron and you can’t use/see the front. Of course it was designed for JSOC folks to use as primary for tubular assaults and such, not family trips to the mall.

https://i.imgur.com/kNL0nrW_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

The concept of a front mounted optic is one I find intriguing but I’ll let people with more money and skill sort it out before I give it a try. If GJM drops an attacking bear or moose with one I’ll buy one. Lol! I also wonder about balance - especially for those of us with weapon lights on our pistols.

[Wise_A]

Is it the fact that the sight doesn't reciprocate with the slide, or that actually placing the sight further forward?

[El Cid]

Is it the fact that the sight doesn't reciprocate with the slide, or that actually placing the sight further forward?

I’m not at the skill level to answer that definitively. And I only recently had a G19 slide milled for a RDS which I don’t have a lot of time with yet. I suspect the RDS not moving is a big help but there are people on P-F more qualified to answer that. Off the top of my head, pre-coffee: GJM Gio Duke HiltonYam

[Gio]

I’m not at the skill level to answer that definitively. And I only recently had a G19 slide milled for a RDS which I don’t have a lot of time with yet. I suspect the RDS not moving is a big help but there are people on P-F more qualified to answer that. Off the top of my head, pre-coffee: GJM Gio Duke HiltonYam

It’s definitely the mount on the non-reciprocating slide that makes it easier to shoot. It’s also easier on the red dot and should make it last longer.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

SilencerCo showed a non-NFA variation of their Maxim 9 last year that was almost exactly what is being discussed, with the benefit of the optic being non-reciprocating.
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Pretty interesting. I might have to pick one of those up as a "poor mans Alien" to tide me over for a few years until I can actually afford/justify an Alien.

[Dagga Boy]

Kind of like what we’ve been doing on USPSA open guns for 30 years now, but smaller and more practical? Of recent, I have seen some pretty compact mounts that might actually work, though they require a steel frame handgun.

I’ve seen a few guys that actually do a slide mounted optic on their open guns, but given the choice I prefer a non reciprocating dot.

Bingo


What is the benefit of moving the sight further away from the fulcrum of the pistol grip and my grip? I'm still in the training wheels stage of dots on pistols so this isn't snark, I'm genuinely curious.

I've read it's "better" to mount dots as close to your eye as possible on long guns (which I can neither prove nor disprove), is there a reason that wouldn't hold true for hand guns as well?

On Long Guns where you are moving the gun from a low position to the mount with the toe of the stock as a hinge point it puts the dot in the eye line faster. It is not the same presentation as a handgun. It works well for me on my AUG’s and shotguns with a receiver mounted optic. If you work through the sight with a high gun like it’s a TV set...well, more forward is likely better but that is not what I do because of that whole Rule 2 and Rule 4 thing.

So, I started shooting a Aimpoint Red Dot in like 91 or so on a full unlimited class revolver running man on man steel plates and loved it. I won a lot. Key to running speed plates with a six shot wheel gun is you cannot miss...period. The dot was a huge help on working those plates at speed and sure of every hit.

Fast forward to the RMR’s and Aimpoint Micro. I was one of the very first people running one on a Pistol. I was the first to run a Aimpoint Micro in a cut slide mount and was ridiculed mercilessly at SHOT show....that became the L&M/Unity mount. Guess it wasn’t that stupid. So, I have time on this stuff. Here are my issues. Asymmetric shooting positions and adapting them to an everyone sight. Currently, I believe it takes more work than irons to get really good with them to see the huge potential benefits. I think the front sight is where we have all been taught to find the aiming point of any firearm as it sort of direct drives the muzzle. If we could get a very low mounted small sight that is essentially in the sight line of traditional pistol sights that does not move in recoil I think we are there. There is a reason folks do well with the ALG on a practical level and the USPSA open guns on a sport level. Now....miniaturize that, harden it for duty use and put it in a spot where it is low and doesn’t move and I think we will be at the stage where everyone can run it better than irons. The only thing I really got excited about at SHOT was the Alien pistol because it would allow for really testing this. Unfortunately, I am too busy buying historical guns to spend that money to be the experimental monkey in the lab again. I spent a bunch of money figuring out the Aimpoint mounting on the Glock and it cost the lives of several Glock slides.
So we can make fun of the folks trying the forward mount and ideas of putting the red dot where the front sight is instead of the rear sight. Luckily, I wasn’t detracted by snide remarks 30 years ago running a dot or 10 years ago with the slide mount that could work in a duty environment. I remember all the people at SHOT laughing that you could never conceal a T1 on a Glock.....and I would just lift my shirt up with a T1 on a G17 in an appendix holster worn by a fat guy that they seemed to miss.
So...those are my thoughts. Not really my focus these days so others can carry this flag up the hill, but I do applaud those thinking outside of what everybody else has now copied from the last bunch of people who got ridiculed and laughed at.

[Chuck Whitlock]

For this concept, I envision something akin to shrinking a Desert Eagle. That gives you a non-reciprocating forward mount. For duty-type usage, the ALS holster is out. You will probably need something open-front, so it will have to secure on the trigger guard or mounted light.

[Doug]

Not frame mounted, but mounts to front of slide
Article

https://sinistralrifleman.com/2015/12/09/ke-arms-glock-34-slide/ (https://sinistralrifleman.com/2015/12/09/ke-arms-glock-34-slide/)


KE arms never produced it

https://sinistralrifleman.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/img_5930.jpg

[Doug]

https://sinistralrifleman.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/img_5930.jpg

[Bergeron]

Doug,

That's an excellent and frankly inspiring picture. Is there any additional information about who did that work and how that you would be able to share?

*EDIT* - I'm sorry, I didn't see that link in your earlier post. Thanks!

[jbrimlow]

For this concept, I envision something akin to shrinking a Desert Eagle. That gives you a non-reciprocating forward mount. For duty-type usage, the ALS holster is out. You will probably need something open-front, so it will have to secure on the trigger guard or mounted light.

Here are a couple holsters for the ALG mount:
https://otghex.com/products/mkvi/?navselect=group3
https://advancedholster.com/products/ams-6s-holster
https://advancedholster.com/products/ams-6s-v2

Maybe they do some securing on the ALG mount itself?