One For the Hose-Monkeys

[Stephanie B]

I became curious about how much a new ladder truck cost. It's a cool million bucks (https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/fire-apparatus/articles/1-million-dollars-for-a-fire-truck-yup-and-heres-why-miZF81kYVmcMxoZ0/). Those pumper trucks-- About $700,000, fully equipped (https://www.doverfire.org/faq.cfm#faq3).

So when you drive by a firehouse and see a pumper truck or two, or a ladder truck, that's some serious money on wheels.

[awp_101]

Is that MSRP or do they get a first responder discount?

My sister is very tolerant of the project vehicles my BiL brings home. She put her foot down when he found a late-70s (IIRC) LaFrance pumper truck...

[Stephanie B]

Is that MSRP or do they get a first responder discount?

My sister is very tolerant of the project vehicles my BiL brings home. She put her foot down when he found a late-70s (IIRC) LaFrance pumper truck...

Probably no discount, those things are all custom-built to some degree. But rebuilding a pumper truck (https://www.fentonfire.com/category/antique_fire_trucks/) would be cool.

I didn't know they still made tiller trucks (https://www.piercemfg.com/fire-trucks/aerials/ascendant-class/107-tiller). Makes sense, in cities with narrow streets and sharp corners, a standard ladder truck could get hung up.

[ccmdfd]

Probably no discount, those things are all custom-built to some degree. But rebuilding a pumper truck (https://www.fentonfire.com/category/antique_fire_trucks/) would be cool.

I didn't know they still made tiller trucks (https://www.piercemfg.com/fire-trucks/aerials/ascendant-class/107-tiller). Makes sense, in cities with narrow streets and sharp corners, a standard ladder truck could get hung up.

The town i work in has two tiller trucks now. We have a congested downtown with narrow streets, cobblestone in some places.

I was in a rural VFD back in the late 90’s. Back then we had to struggle to get enough monies for trucks which cost back then 80-100K.



Nowadays I’m amazed at the amount of equipment some departments have. To me, it seems that after 9/11, things changed.



My hometown is a small coastal community of less than 2000 population. Their fire department has equipment and stations which rival the large NC cities. I’ve had firefighter friends from those areas come in to visit and they are awestruck at what they see. In the past 10 years they have built a 10 million dollar station and a 1+ million ladder truck, and it’s all paid for, no loans.



Of course I still see some struggling VFD’s when travelling through the state. Much depends on the tax base of the department. Most FD’s are funded by fire tax dollars in NC. If they are in the middle of farm country, not much tax base, down on the coast-big $.



cc

[TGS]

Probably no discount, those things are all custom-built to some degree. But rebuilding a pumper truck (https://www.fentonfire.com/category/antique_fire_trucks/) would be cool.

I didn't know they still made tiller trucks (https://www.piercemfg.com/fire-trucks/aerials/ascendant-class/107-tiller). Makes sense, in cities with narrow streets and sharp corners, a standard ladder truck could get hung up.

Especially in the northeast, there's a lot of FDs with more funding than they know what to do with, and they very quickly get bitten by good idea fairies and the want for cool toys. Lots of shit that is completely unnecessary, and lots of things being done because it's simply the way they've done things without any critical thought being applied.

If FD budgets looked like EMS budgets, the equipment they were running in a lot of places would look a lot different. You can see that just in FDs that do EMS vs standalone EMS agencies, and FDs using gigantic "medium-duty" trucks for no good reason that are mostly empty and cost $175-200k+ a pop compared to a Type II ("van-bulance") at $75k or truck/van conversion chassis cost around $100-125k. The idea of medium-duty EMS rigs came from a west coast Fire/Rescue agency that had firefighter EMT/Medics carry not only their fire turnout gear but also light rescue gear on the ambulances and employed accordingly....a fraction of departments using medium duties actually do that, it's just cool to have a big truck. So, the same thing happens to FDs, and all of my buddies in fire back in NJ admitted it.

Maybe it's just my jaded bitterness of working in public safety in the northeast, but IMO look to the midwest and west coast for leaders in equipment deployment and TTPs....or at least anywhere except the NE, I guess. Seems to hold true for fire, EMS and police. IDK....I just fucking hate the northeast after living there for so long.

ETA: Just to be completely clear, I'm all for FDs having good equipment and being able to do their job. I'm not saying they should undergo extreme austerity measures like PDs are going through....but, what I fucking hate are seeing firefighters' jobs dependent on SAFER grants, and FFs laid off and running 3 dudes to an engine, when they could be saving money not buying ridiculous apparatus they don't fucking need and is mostly unnecessary for the job.

[Dog Guy]

The engineering in those ladder trucks is amazing. My department used aerial platforms instead of straight ladders. The platform was 102 feet up at full extension. We could swing it perpendicular to the truck with 1000 pounds in the bucket and lower it to negative 4 degrees at full extension without exceeding stability limits. We could fly in 40 MPH sustained winds. When bedded, those ladders look and feel as solid as can be. When flying, especially at low angles, the arch you'd see along the ladder was impressive. They're an expensive, complicated tool. In most cities you don't utilize their full potential very often but when you need it, you really need it.

[UNK]

Probably no discount, those things are all custom-built to some degree. But rebuilding a pumper truck (https://www.fentonfire.com/category/antique_fire_trucks/) would be cool.

I didn't know they still made tiller trucks (https://www.piercemfg.com/fire-trucks/aerials/ascendant-class/107-tiller). Makes sense, in cities with narrow streets and sharp corners, a standard ladder truck could get hung up.

Theres a guy locally who bought a pumper at city auction for a pittance. It had been at the firefighter school for training purposes so it was full functional and maintained. He could have sold just the motor and gotten multiples of what he paid for the entire truck.
Its so cool to see that sitting in his driveway. He takes it out for parades, birthdays etc etc.

[RevolverRob]

As one might imagine, for historical reasons, Chicago takes the threat of fire quite seriously. What amazes me is that we basically have a sub-station for every 2 square miles within the city limits. If the trucks are costing 700k, that's a lot of dough on trucks alone. I honestly thought they were a couple of hundred grand, not 700-1 million.

TGS' rant about NE emergency services reminds me of a great movie scene -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbZNMTLoGfM

[Dog Guy]

The other odd thing in buying fire rigs is the amount of customization. Too many agencies spend a ton of time and money specing out "their" apparatus so it's just perfect. We'd all be better off if we looked at what worked well at Department X and just bought three of those off the rack. Then you have the poor workmanship of the builders to deal with. We used three or four different manufacturers during my career. Every rig we ever received needed all sorts of fixes and rework to make it fully functional. This was an expected standard in the industry and I could never understand it.

[theJanitor]

A friend's father runs a tour company for vacationers. He's got 800+ buses and vans. I asked him what the price on a nice tour bus is, and he said "above 400k". A million for a firetruck sounds reasonable

[DpdG]

The FD in the town I work has replaced pretty much their entire heavy fleet (ladder, tanker, two engines) in the last four years. Given we frequently get our request for replacement cruisers cut in half, their budget can be a source of jealousy.

They replaced a 1996 straight 110’ ladder with a 100’ tower they bought as a manufacturer’s demo for nearly $850k, discounted from $1.1 brand new. Then they had to do $100k in renovations to get it to fit in the building... The old ladder, which had less than 40k miles on it and ran perfectly, sold for $4k. The reason they replaced it was the ladder sections were at the outer edge of their allowable twist. Even still, a Detroit/Allison with less than 40k on them, plus tires with less than 2k on them have to be worth more than $4k, let alone the scrap weight of the rest of the truck.

[beenalongtime]

The FD in the town I work has replaced pretty much their entire heavy fleet (ladder, tanker, two engines) in the last four years. Given we frequently get our request for replacement cruisers cut in half, their budget can be a source of jealousy.

They replaced a 1996 straight 110’ ladder with a 100’ tower they bought as a manufacturer’s demo for nearly $850k, discounted from $1.1 brand new. Then they had to do $100k in renovations to get it to fit in the building... The old ladder, which had less than 40k miles on it and ran perfectly, sold for $4k. The reason they replaced it was the ladder sections were at the outer edge of their allowable twist. Even still, a Detroit/Allison with less than 40k on them, plus tires with less than 2k on them have to be worth more than $4k, let alone the scrap weight of the rest of the truck.

What is the cost to retrofit a ladder? Wondering if that wouldn't been better off with a smaller new ladder, for a smaller city/town, then scrap?

[frozentundra]

The engineering in those ladder trucks is amazing. My department used aerial platforms instead of straight ladders. The platform was 102 feet up at full extension. We could swing it perpendicular to the truck with 1000 pounds in the bucket and lower it to negative 4 degrees at full extension without exceeding stability limits. We could fly in 40 MPH sustained winds. When bedded, those ladders look and feel as solid as can be. When flying, especially at low angles, the arch you'd see along the ladder was impressive. They're an expensive, complicated tool. In most cities you don't utilize their full potential very often but when you need it, you really need it.


That is really impressive at those angles!

I've spent a lot of time in 185' JLG telescoping boom lifts. Every time I get in one I think I'm going to die. I hate them.

[TQP]

I'm not sure you could get any manufacturer to refurb a 25 year old ladder truck, just from a liability standpoint.

That's assuming the chassis has enough GVWR to carry the extra weight of a modern aerial.

Fun fact, our neighboring agency bought a new 75 foot ladder truck in 94? 95? With that ladder out to full extension, at 0 degrees, you could pull the tip of the ladder down with your hand and it would lift the opposite side outrigger off the ground. Compare that to the example upthread from Dog Guy.

[paherne]

The agency that covers the City I work for is all Pierce, except for one old KME reserve rig. One thing to remember is that fire rigs generally run for 10-15 years before they are replaced.

[Crazy Dane]

A lot of our standards are set by the Department of Insurance and the fire departments receive a rating through them. The rating runs from 1 - 10 with 1 being best and 10 is not rated. A minimum rating of 9S is required to get fire insurance at a maximum of 5 miles from that fire station and the better the rating the lower the insurance. There are few departments that receive a 1 rating. To receive these higher rates you have to have an engine every 1.5 miles and a ladder ever 2.5. Each type of apparatus has to have a basic equipment list and extra/more gets you more points. An engine has a service life of 10 years and a ladder is 15 years. Our state rerates departments every 4 years. The other factor that drives equipment needs is the fact the fir service has become the catch all for when 911 rings. We just don't do fire and ems. we do rope rescues, scuba dive missions, confined space, has-mat and traffic accidents. We get called to water leaks, trees down in the road, keys kids pets medications locked in cars, locked out of the house with the stove on, I could go on and on. The old guys and I'm an old guy now, say they don't pay us for what we do, they pay us for what we can do. I am required to do 320 hours of continuing education every year just to keep my certifications not counting any new cert I want to get.

Fire trucks are expensive because what works in the mountains of western North Carolina is not going to work in Wilmington on the coast nor will it work for Denver fire department in the rockies. It takes a year to have an engine built and up to 2 years for a ladder. Companies do have standard models but they are only marginally cheaper and take the same amount of time to build.


So, I typed this up earlier and walked away with out submitting and I just come back to it and add a little.

NFPA set recommendations for the departments and you think the US tax code is complicated? Expanding on the age of trucks, engines get 10 years as front line rigs and then 10 years as a reserve. Ladders get 15 years as front line and 10 years in reserve so that means the 25 year old rig above is done. The other thing with ladders is it has to reach the roof of the tallest building or 100 feet, so if you only have low buildings you can have less than 100ft.

[mark7]

I'm not sure you could get any manufacturer to refurb a 25 year old ladder truck, just from a liability standpoint.

Dog Guy.

See Pierce with Baker aerialscopes :cool:

[Coyotesfan97]

I used to work council security and saw five Pierce trucks for 4-5 million on the consent agenda with no eye blinking. Our Fire Department basically sole sources them by being very exacting in the bid request.

[Dog Guy]

I used to work council security and saw five Pierce trucks for 4-5 million on the consent agenda with no eye blinking. Our Fire Department basically sole sources them by being very exacting in the bid request.

That used to be the trick for departments that had to get bids but wanted only American Lafrance: spec that the rig had to have a curved windshield, which only ALF offered and voila, only ALF met the spec.

[ccmdfd]

That used to be the trick for departments that had to get bids but wanted only American Lafrance: spec that the rig had to have a curved windshield, which only ALF offered and voila, only ALF met the spec.

Same for LEO agencies and firearms bids.

When the FBI went to the Springfield Professional for their specialized teams, they made it so only a 1911 could have been chosen.

[DpdG]

What is the cost to retrofit a ladder? Wondering if that wouldn't been better off with a smaller new ladder, for a smaller city/town, then scrap?

Others have covered the insurance/NFPA side of things, which I don’t know enough about to talk intelligently. I know a replacement ladder on the existing truck was priced out and for some reason $150ish sticks in my head, but I’m not sure of that. The thing is it wasn’t sold as scrap- a city department one state away bought it to use as a reserve/spare.

Edit- the new tower ladder is a Pierce (built as a demo) while the two engines and tanker they bought in the last few years were built to department spec by Marion.