China and Chinese manufacturing discussion

[bigbob]

With all of the PEOPLE who have died here in the USA and the MANY PEOPLE who have had their entire lives changed from this virus, WHY ARE WE PURCHASING ANYTHING FROM THE PEOPLE THAT TRIED TO KILL US ALL!!! I needed a red dot sight for my Ruger pistol, I looked through the computer for one MADE IN AMERICA, the price was about $10.00 more than the SHIT you get from china and I felt ALOT BETTER ABOUT MY PURCHASE THINK about that, OK

[El Cid]

With all of the PEOPLE who have died here in the USA and the MANY PEOPLE who have had their entire lives changed from this virus, WHY ARE WE PURCHASING ANYTHING FROM THE PEOPLE THAT TRIED TO KILL US ALL!!! I needed a red dot sight for my Ruger pistol, I looked through the computer for one MADE IN AMERICA, the price was about $10.00 more than the SHIT you get from china and I felt ALOT BETTER ABOUT MY PURCHASE THINK about that, OK

I’m all for buying American. But what red dot that’s made here did you find for $10 more than the Chicom version? You do know that Sig, Primary Arms, even Vortex low end optics are made in China or assembled here with parts from China? And EOTech is mud because their product was proven unreliable and the company lacking in ethics. Aimpoint is Swedish. Which made in the USA red dots are you using?

[JAD]

. Aimpoint is Swedish. Which made in the USA red dots are you using?

I dislike Sweden, but literally anything outside the traditional axis of evil is better than PRC.

[HCM]

I dislike Sweden, but literally anything outside the traditional axis of evil is better than PRC.

It’s the Lingonberries isn’t it ?

[JAD]

It’s the Lingonberries isn’t it ?

It’s the Swedes. It’s a pretty country where it’s devoid of people.

[HCM]

It’s the Swedes. It’s a pretty country where it’s devoid of people.

As long as it’s not the meatballs.

[Navin Johnson]

The average Chinese citizen I believe is not a big fan of their government. they are people who want to go on with their lives that actually like America and American stuff I think.

The Chinese government is a different story.

I believe the countries that attacked us or our forces in world war II had the support of their citizens for the most part. So if one is worried about a product made in China I assume they would never purchase a product made in Germany or Japan or a product with any content from those countries.

In other words just about any complex widget that is sold anywhere in the world has parts from all over the world.

As an example your average "American" car has thousands and thousands of dollars worth of components from other places in the world.

Toyota Tundras are built in Texas. Sure some profit goes to Japan however many good Americans are employed building those trucks.

FFT.

[JAD]

The average Chinese citizen I believe is not a big fan of their government.

How much time have you spent in the PRC? I'm not sure I'm taking issue with your statement, just wanting to know your context.

[Navin Johnson]

How much time have you spent in the PRC? I'm not sure I'm taking issue with your statement, just wanting to know your context.

High population in my area..... Coworkers neighbors etc.
Which obviously could be a skewed sample....

[TGS]

The original POST suddenly HAS ME all sorts of motivated to GET an M1A to REPLACE my poodle-shootin' small BORES and scream AT THE commies and free the AMERICAN inside them trying TO GET out!!!11!

God bless TRUMP! Aunt Becky says HI

[El Cid]

The original POST suddenly HAS ME all sorts of motivated to GET an M1A to REPLACE my poodle-shootin' small BORES and scream AT THE commies and free the AMERICAN inside them trying TO GET out!!!11!

God bless TRUMP! Aunt Becky says HI

I looked through my closet for my 80’s t-shirt that said, “Kill a Commie for Mommy.” Lol! Sadly it’s MIA.

[vcdgrips]

Quote Originally Posted by JAD

"How much time have you spent in the PRC? I'm not sure I'm taking issue with your statement, just wanting to know your context."

NJ Says:

"High population in my area..... Coworkers neighbors etc.
Which obviously could be a skewed sample..."

NJ I take your answer to mean that you have been around a lot of people from the PRC. To the point-how much time have you spent in the PRC?

[TGS]

I looked through my closet for my 80’s t-shirt that said, “Kill a Commie for Mommy.” Lol! Sadly it’s MIA.

you NEED to FIGUER IT OUT, young man.

Your NAME should be "EL CHICOM". America is DOOMED but TRUMP WILL SAVE.

[theJanitor]

Which made in the USA red dots are you using?

I just bought an RM06 on friday. It was double the price of a Holosun 407. Where are these cheap optics, bigbob ?

[Totem Polar]

https://desolationofblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/wolverines-e1429896256347.png

(Yeah, yeah, I know that’s Russia. They all look the same through Hamms beer goggles.)

[Caballoflaco]

I looked through my closet for my 80’s t-shirt that said, “Kill a Commie for Mommy.” Lol! Sadly it’s MIA.

DONT have WORY! You can still buy KILL A COMMIE for MOMMY t-shirts! Also have you heard about WHO is putting FLOURIDE in our water supply to in order TAINT our PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS that’s right COMMIES!!

53798

https://www.amazon.com/Kill-Commie-Mommy-T-Shirt-Large/dp/B00M9GQXOU/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=kill+a+commie+for+mommy+tshirt&qid=1589215715&sprefix=kill+a+comm&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExTElRM0JRU1FZS1I1J mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwODE2MzMyMVVGOFkxVDlEVDQwVSZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDkwMjQ3MTFQSE4yVVNSWDRJVSZ3aWRnZ XROYW1lPXNwX3Bob25lX3NlYXJjaF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWN rUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

[Alembic]

The average Chinese citizen I believe is not a big fan of their government. they are people who want to go on with their lives that actually like America and American stuff I think.

The Chinese government is a different story.

I believe the countries that attacked us or our forces in world war II had the support of their citizens for the most part. So if one is worried about a product made in China I assume they would never purchase a product made in Germany or Japan or a product with any content from those countries.

In other words just about any complex widget that is sold anywhere in the world has parts from all over the world.

As an example your average "American" car has thousands and thousands of dollars worth of components from other places in the world.

Toyota Tundras are built in Texas. Sure some profit goes to Japan however many good Americans are employed building those trucks.

FFT.

Bold is my highlight.
I agree with 90% and the gist of your post, however I will pass along one observation. A family member goes to school with many Chinese nationals. Yes they are young people, maybe naive and indoctrinated, certainly represent the upper class in China, but... as a group they are very sensitive to any criticism of their country. From the party line and historical critique to modern culture, they believe their way is the right way.

All I'm trying to say is, F@ck China, cause they will not hesitate to f@ck us."

[RevolverRob]

they believe their way is the right way.

They out number us 4-to-1 are they wrong? ;) :eek: :rolleyes:

___

I've mentioned before, one of my PhD supervisors is Chinese, now an American Citizen and has been here since ~1985. That said he returns to China regularly and his parents still live in China.

He'll be the first to tell you, the government is fucked. But the average person just wants to go to work and do their job. And that they like consumerism as much as the average American, along with eating. I don't think China wants to conquer the world. East Asia? Totally. But the world? Nah.

As for China once the enemy always the enemy or something...the Chinese fought alongside us against the Japanese in WW2 and frankly if we had better supported the Kuomintang immediately post-war, China would, today, probably be 2-3 countries instead of a monolith that is controlled by the CPC. I'm not saying it is the U.S.'s fault that the PRC exists, but I believe if we had better supported them, we might have an East and West China like we had an East and West Germany. Our decision to allow the Soviets to aid CPC and severely limit support to the Kuomintang ultimately resulted in latter's loss of the Chinese Civil War.

At this point, the CPC and PRC are irrevocably linked and we are not capable of toppling them at any level (should we want to). But as we learned during the Cold War, frankly we don't need to topple a country using force or politics. Capitalism is the ultimate tool for bringing about the collapse of autocratic societies. For every U.S. Dollar Spent in China, for every trade agreement, for every Chinese citizen allowed out of China and into the western world, we move a little bit closer to a more democratic China.

While I believe we should support American Manufacturing and infrastructure - particularly so the next time a fucking pandemic sweeps in we aren't dependent on imports for major PPE and other important goods - I also think it is very important to spend dollars in other countries, because the greenback is a powerful political tool. I'm not suggesting it's going to happen over night, but consider where China was in 1970 vs. 2020. In 50 years, censorship has been relaxed, economic mobility has increased, the country has become increasingly Westernized - Is it perfect? Nope. But Nixon opened trade relations with China in 1972 and in the intervening 48-years, we did more to undermine the CPC and PRC via economic trade, than a war ever could.

Just my thoughts.

[BobLoblaw]

With all of the PEOPLE who have died here in the USA and the MANY PEOPLE who have had their entire lives changed from this virus, WHY ARE WE PURCHASING ANYTHING FROM THE PEOPLE THAT TRIED TO KILL US ALL!!! I needed a red dot sight for my Ruger pistol, I looked through the computer for one MADE IN AMERICA, the price was about $10.00 more than the SHIT you get from china and I felt ALOT BETTER ABOUT MY PURCHASE THINK about that, OK
Anyone else read it in this voice?

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fa1cf74336522e87f135f-2f21ace9a6cf0052456644b80fa06d4f.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.c om%2Fimages%2Fcharacters%2Fp-the-big-lebowski-john-goodman.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Moving manufacturing overseas made money for our financial elites - it was supported by both the GOP and Democratic rich classes. They didn't care if it clobbered our working class. Surprise.

We can't fight China today as all my life saving medicines would disappear before we could start up here. OOPS! Lose my sight and drop dead!

BTW, guess what - we build and design crappy ships, so we are now buying Italian frigates! We are arming some of our ships with Norwegian missiles. How about that!

How come Swiss cheese was invented in Switzerland? How come our new handgun is a SIG. Why do we carry Glocks! All a foreign plot.

How come I have a shirt on made in Viet Nam? They are the enemy! XDs are from Croatia - not a particularly charming country in WWII.

Trump ties and NRA knifes are made in CHINA. Send them a check!

[TiroFijo]

I guess we are all typing this on computers and smart phones free of evil PRC components... :D

Most of the damage done by the coronavirus on the USA is due to american errors in preparing for and handling this epidemic... the USA had plenty of time to prepare in advance, and lots of horror stories elsewhere to take notice.

[RoyGBiv]

How much time have you spent in the PRC? I'm not sure I'm taking issue with your statement, just wanting to know your context.

I have spent a lot of time in China... Started with IBM in the mid 90's, moving manufacturing to Taiwan, Japan and China. I have relationships with Chinese citizens that include attending their weddings. I've sourced/contracted/managed billions of dollars in overseas business over the last ~25 years. Some with Europe, most with Asia, much with China. My most recent 10-year China travel visa has a lot of stamps on it.

I can't agree or disagree with the post you're challenging, because the reality is not black and white. There are many differences in expectations that come with growing up in communist China. How do you know what choice is when you've never had a choice to make? 25 years ago the level of poverty there was heartbreaking. Today there is a thriving middle class. IMO, eventually, growing wealth will be the impetus for the downfall of the communist regime. Wealth and information.

I'll apologize for answering with a question..... We saw what happened in Tiananmen in '89.... When you grow up in a place that leaves you no hope to change your government in the short term, what do you do? You resign yourself to finding ways to live your best life within those constraints.

The Chinese people are some of the nicest and most kind hearted people I've met. I'm not a fan of their government, but it wasn't the Chinese government that weaponized the IRS and DOJ against people with whom I have shared values.

[Grey]

Are we really so damn bored that this thread actually has legs?

God help us all...

[TGS]

Are we really so damn bored that this thread actually has legs?

God help us all...

I regret that I have but one troll to give.

I'm no fan of China and am generally in the warhawk corner that thinks we should've let McArthur nuke them in the early 50s and generally rib my buddies who have Chinese wives about fraternizing with the enemy....but the first post was too good. Almost as if it was intentionally sourced from the "Where we Pretend to be Boomers" facebook group.....

[LittleLebowski]

bigbob Please stop replying to thread comments on here via email. When theJanitor mentioned you earlier with the “@“ symbol, that was meant to alert you of him communicating with you, in this thread. It was not an email and you replying to “webmaster@pistol-forum” just meant that I got an unsolicited email from YOU, FULL OF CAPITALIZATION.

[TGS]

bigbob Please stop replying to thread comments on here via email. When theJanitor mentioned you earlier with the “@“ symbol, that was meant to alert you of him communicating with you, in this thread. It was not an email and you replying to “webmaster@pistol-forum” just meant that I got an unsolicited email from YOU, FULL OF CAPITALIZATION.

This is even more boomer than the original post.

I can't even right now.

[LittleLebowski]

This is even more boomer than the original post.

I can't even right now.

#TipOfTheIceberg (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=TipOfTheIceberg)

[blues]

Dear Mr. Lebowski,

If I may impose on your munificence for just a moment.

I am a prince of the Yerbooty tribe which is currently in grave danger of being wiped out.

As a prince of the Bidets yourself, you know the dangers that we royals are faced with.

Thankfully, our coffers are yet flush.

I would like to send you 7,560,000 in Fredonian marks to be deposited in your account with the Bank of Amazon, Palmetto, Brownells and Natchez.

For your gracious solicitude, we will recompense you with 1,000,000 Fredonian marks for your efforts to protect yet another royal brand.

Please, provide your bank account number and passwords so that we can forward the funds directally via wired transference.

We plan to make these deposits on an anal basis and hope you will find it refreshing to do business with our tribal council.

Sincerely,

Prince Bleedin Hemo Royd

[theJanitor]

bigbob Please stop replying to thread comments on here via email. When theJanitor mentioned you earlier with the “@“ symbol, that was meant to alert you of him communicating with you, in this thread. It was not an email and you replying to “webmaster@pistol-forum” just meant that I got an unsolicited email from YOU, FULL OF CAPITALIZATION.

sorry, LL :cool:

[Coyotesfan97]

I have spent a lot of time in China... Started with IBM in the mid 90's, moving manufacturing to Taiwan, Japan and China. I have relationships with Chinese citizens that include attending their weddings. I've sourced/contracted/managed billions of dollars in overseas business over the last ~25 years. Some with Europe, most with Asia, much with China. My most recent 10-year China travel visa has a lot of stamps on it.

I can't agree or disagree with the post you're challenging, because the reality is not black and white. There are many differences in expectations that come with growing up in communist China. How do you know what choice is when you've never had a choice to make? 25 years ago the level of poverty there was heartbreaking. Today there is a thriving middle class. IMO, eventually, growing wealth will be the impetus for the downfall of the communist regime. Wealth and information.

I'll apologize for answering with a question..... We saw what happened in Tiananmen in '89.... When you grow up in a place that leaves you no hope to change your government in the short term, what do you do? You resign yourself to finding ways to live your best life within those constraints.

The Chinese people are some of the nicest and most kind hearted people I've met. I'm not a fan of their government, but it wasn't the Chinese government that weaponized the IRS and DOJ against people with whom I have shared values.

My Dad worked for IBM for thirty plus years. His last overseas assignment was in Beijing but from 85ish to just before the massacre in Tianamen Square. My folks left while the protest was still ongoing. They lived in the IBM compound and traveled all over China. I went with them when they moved and visited Beijing once after that.

[Grey]

bigbob Please stop replying to thread comments on here via email. When theJanitor mentioned you earlier with the “@“ symbol, that was meant to alert you of him communicating with you, in this thread. It was not an email and you replying to “webmaster@pistol-forum” just meant that I got an unsolicited email from YOU, FULL OF CAPITALIZATION.

I'm totally going to just start hitting reply all when I get notifications from PF. Thanks for letting us know that you read those LL :D

[AKDoug]

I'm a retailer. Mostly in hardware and building materials. I spend two full work days attempting to source numerous products with made in USA ones. In many cases these products no longer exist. Not much I can do. A complete jump away from Chinese products is going to take some time.

[Casual Friday]

I regret that I have but one troll to give.

I'm no fan of China and am generally in the warhawk corner that thinks we should've let McArthur nuke them in the early 50s and generally rib my buddies who have Chinese wives about fraternizing with the enemy....but the first post was too good. Almost as if it was intentionally sourced from the "Where we Pretend to be Boomers" facebook group.....

GOBBLESS! ;)

[Joe in PNG]

Then again, how many American products are manufactured by people keeping a wary eye out for the federales?

[RoyGBiv]

My Dad worked for IBM for thirty plus years. His last overseas assignment was in Beijing but from 85ish to just before the massacre in Tianamen Square. My folks left while the protest was still ongoing. They lived in the IBM compound and traveled all over China. I went with them when they moved and visited Beijing once after that.

I.B.M. - I've Been Moved ;)

Of all the places I've been in China, Beijing is my least favorite. You can feel the weight of the government there. Although, the Forbidden City is spectacular.
Beijing is also the only place I ever thought my life was in danger traveling on business. Good thing I had an umbrella. :eek:
Shanghai is (mostly) a better version of NYC (I was raised in NYC, so, I have a qualified opinion). Hong Kong is truly a unique place. Still. Go if you get the chance.

[RoyGBiv]

I'm a retailer. Mostly in hardware and building materials. I spend two full work days attempting to source numerous products with made in USA ones. In many cases these products no longer exist. Not much I can do. A complete jump away from Chinese products is going to take some time.

Here's an example with numbers...

I have a customer. Ted. Ted buys steel boxes (computer cases would be a similar level of complexity... that is.. not complex at all) from me, made to Teds drawings. I can deliver 1 box to Ted for $75 (they're fairly big, so, don't get too far in the weeds on this). Delivered.... paid the factory, paid the freight, paid Uncle Donald's giant tariff, some profit for me. Ted calls me one day and says "I'd like to find a source to make these in the US, because lead time is too long from China (14 days manufacturing and ~4-5 weeks shipping). So I call some friends in the business here and get a quote..... This is MY COST, not what I would have to charge Ted.... $10K up front for NRE (programming) and $210/box on an 8 week lead time. Ted paid $0 NRE for his boxes from me.

So I call Ted and tell him.... "I can ship these same boxes from China via FedEx and the cost would still be less than making them in the US." :rolleyes:

Don't get me started with reliably doing anything useful in Mexico. Been there. Have the scars to prove it.

I've been facilitating international trade in various ways for a long time. I was talking to a good friend the other day about a 180' turn working for a defense contractor. That might feel good right now. Does decades spent doing overseas trade prevent one from obtaining a security clearance?

[FAS1]

I am a manufacturer in the USA (TX) and have been for 10+ years. When Trump was elected I hoped that "Made In USA" would mean more to most people. It hasn't, even though most say they prefer American Made product. That is at least until they have to reach for their wallet. It does cost more to manufacture here than in China.

I think with the Wuhan Coronavirus people are now realizing there's more that matters just cost. Will it make a difference? Probably in some industries like medicines.

[blues]

I am a manufacturer in the USA (TX) and have been for 10+ years. When Trump was elected I hoped that "Made In USA" would mean more to most people. It hasn't, even though most say they prefer American Made product. That is at least until they have to reach for their wallet. It does cost more to manufacture here than in China.

I think with the Wuhan Coronavirus people are now realizing there's more that matters just cost. Will it make a difference? Probably in some industries like medicines.

I have often brought up the same argument when it comes to folks failing to support this forum by opening their wallets, especially when they've used it to advertise.

[TGS]

I have often brought up the same argument when it comes to folks failing to support this forum by opening their wallets, especially when they've used it to advertise.

I see what you did there.

I like it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It is such an interesting divide. I have friends who are in love with Trump for his social policies. Gun rights! Sexuality control issues! Religous Freedom. Evil poor wanting to be on the social welfare handout.

But when I mention we should bring back manufacturing to the USA, it's free trade. Companies need to make more profit for the stock holders!

But the poor folks lost their good jobs. Well, that's tough - they should learn how to program or something else. Watch the market. And how about those new judges that will blah, blah, blah.

I said we cannot get tough with China or fight them. My meds go away to save Taiwan? Yep, OPEN FIRE!

The Chinese see us as a potential vassal state surrounding the Middle Kingdom. We can sputter about those islands in the Pacific, and sail around them with no effect.

[LittleLebowski]

It is such an interesting divide. I have friends who are in love with Trump for his social policies. Gun rights! Sexuality control issues! Religous Freedom. Evil poor wanting to be on the social welfare handout.

But when I mention we should bring back manufacturing to the USA, it's free trade. Companies need to make more profit for the stock holders!

But the poor folks lost their good jobs. Well, that's tough - they should learn how to program or something else. Watch the market. And how about those new judges that will blah, blah, blah.

I said we cannot get tough with China or fight them. My meds go away to save Taiwan? Yep, OPEN FIRE!

The Chinese see us as a potential vassal state surrounding the Middle Kingdom. We can sputter about those islands in the Pacific, and sail around them with no effect.

That’s generalizing Trump supporters, very such so. Also, inaccurate.

[BehindBlueI's]

But the poor folks lost their good jobs. Well, that's tough - they should learn how to program or something else. Watch the market. And how about those new judges that will blah, blah, blah.

It has been fairly interesting to watch some of the same people who talked about restaurant workers like the scum of the Earth for daring to seek higher wages suddenly become ultra-concerned about the fate of restaurant workers.

[blues]

It has been fairly interesting to watch some of the same people who talked about restaurant workers like the scum of the Earth for daring to seek higher wages suddenly become ultra-concerned about the fate of restaurant workers.

Such cynicism. Next you'll accuse them of not supporting a minimum wage.

Oh, cabana boy!



:rolleyes:

[hiro]

I have often brought up the same argument when it comes to folks failing to support this forum by opening their wallets, especially when they've used it to advertise.

Oooooh, that was sharp. It's as if you've been hanging around those pointy sticks a while and it's rubbed off...

[inkslinger]

It is such an interesting divide. I have friends who are in love with Trump for his social policies. Gun rights! Sexuality control issues! Religous Freedom. Evil poor wanting to be on the social welfare handout.

But when I mention we should bring back manufacturing to the USA, it's free trade. Companies need to make more profit for the stock holders!

But the poor folks lost their good jobs. Well, that's tough - they should learn how to program or something else. Watch the market. And how about those new judges that will blah, blah, blah.

I said we cannot get tough with China or fight them. My meds go away to save Taiwan? Yep, OPEN FIRE!

The Chinese see us as a potential vassal state surrounding the Middle Kingdom. We can sputter about those islands in the Pacific, and sail around them with no effect.

Regardless of who you voted for, most Americans aren’t willing to pay more for things, or get paid less to make things. So should the burden fall on corporations? Reduce prices? Reduce hourly wages? Reduce number of employees? While I’m not thrilled with our entanglements with China, it seems like our country’s economy is just fine with it. I’m sure you’ve heard the expression “vote with your dollar”? Well, it certainly looks like the American consumer has voted.

[UNK]

I have and will pay more for American made.
I bought a set of bluetooth speakers for a dorm room and they werent cheap speakers. Had a conversation with the owner of the company about them being made in China. But I still bought them because I was looking for a minimum acceptable quality level and there was nothing else in that quality range made anywhere.
If I had a choice I would have bought American.
Bought a flashlight a few years ago and the primary requirement was USA made. Ended going with Malkoff and Im pretty sure I could have gotten more for less in a chinese made even if it was an American company.
Its easy to say buy American when its available but I bet most of the time low $s win.

[LittleLebowski]

It is such an interesting divide. I have friends who are in love with Trump for his social policies. Gun rights! Sexuality control issues! Religous Freedom. Evil poor wanting to be on the social welfare handout.

But when I mention we should bring back manufacturing to the USA, it's free trade. Companies need to make more profit for the stock holders!

But the poor folks lost their good jobs. Well, that's tough - they should learn how to program or something else. Watch the market. And how about those new judges that will blah, blah, blah.

I said we cannot get tough with China or fight them. My meds go away to save Taiwan? Yep, OPEN FIRE!

The Chinese see us as a potential vassal state surrounding the Middle Kingdom. We can sputter about those islands in the Pacific, and sail around them with no effect.



Clearly I live in Bizarro World as most Trump supporters I know are in favor of opening up the country again to aid workers affected by the covid crisis (which puts them on the other side of Democratic governors), they elected the the first President ever whom made a central campaign issue of combatting China in trade, specifically jobs and intellectual property theft, and he also made H1B visa reform a campaign issue. I mean, it’s not like any part of what I just listed is not common knowledge. At this point, I basically see people trying to cite fictional caricatures of what they believe Trump supporters are like, whilst denying reality unless they only get their news from The View.

Glenn, any thoughts on those conservatives protesting complete state lockdown and financial ruin? Are they or are they not campaigning to open up the economy again? Glenn, were you completely unaware of the fact that Trump is the first President to make taking on China a priority and then he promptly did so? If Trump supporters are so in favor of the free market and “learn to code”, why is Trump reforming H1B visa abuse (by liberal Silicone Valley companies) and why he is so openly protectionist? I mean, where do you get your news from? None of this is not common knowledge. Trump is fighting China economically. Trump is a protectionist when it comes to trade. Conservatives are the ones doing grass roots protesting to open up state economies and help the working people (see Michigan).

[blues]

Oooooh, that was sharp. It's as if you've been hanging around those pointy sticks a while and it's rubbed off...

I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about.







;)

[Coyotesfan97]

I.B.M. - I've Been Moved ;)

Of all the places I've been in China, Beijing is my least favorite. You can feel the weight of the government there. Although, the Forbidden City is spectacular.
Beijing is also the only place I ever thought my life was in danger traveling on business. Good thing I had an umbrella. :eek:
Shanghai is (mostly) a better version of NYC (I was raised in NYC, so, I have a qualified opinion). Hong Kong is truly a unique place. Still. Go if you get the chance.

My Dad was the exception to the I’ve Been Moved lol. He started in LA, took TDY to Phoenix, and then accepted a transfer there. He stayed in Phoenix until he took the overseas job in Beijing. But he wasn’t interested in promoting. When you go to management you get IBM’d a lot. Although he did have to travel for TDY a lot. He was in White Plains a lot.

The Forbidden City is spectacular. Tianaman Square is impressive for its size. Beijing definitely makes you remember you’re in a communist country. We went to the Great Wall. My folks liked Shanghai a lot. They traveled internally in China a lot. IBM was very generous with vacation and RR time for China employees. I’ve been to Hong Kong twice. I went to Singapore and Bali during RR trips with my folks.

[hiro]

I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about.







;)

Yeah, you're so sweet and innocent it makes me blush

[BehindBlueI's]

Regardless of who you voted for, most Americans aren’t willing to pay more for things, or get paid less to make things.

Oddly I recall when the Wal-mart shelves were full of "Made in the USA" products. I remember when there were signs that would say something like "this ironing board made 15 jobs in Chucklehead, MO" I seem to recall people buying those things.

While I don't doubt people are price sensitive, I also think that the death of American manufacturing lies largely among the folks like Sam's kids. How many options do we have, and what was the real motivation to getting rid of Chucklehead in favor of Beijing? They just couldn't wait to give us lower prices? Sure.

I buy American when I can. I'm not religious about it. I get that my options for electronics are limited. I get my options for certain items of clothing are often limited. But here's the thing...I make a good wage and don't have buy a whole lot of shit. I can afford to be pay a little more without major tradeoffs. That's a reason the growing wage gap is a concern. The poor don't have that luxury, and it *is* a luxury.

[Joe in PNG]

Clearly I live in Bizarro World as most Trump supporters I know are in favor of opening up the country again to aid workers affected by the covid crisis (which puts them on the other side of Democratic governors), they elected the the first President ever whom made a central campaign issue of combatting China in trade, specifically jobs and intellectual property theft, and he also made H1B visa reform a campaign issue. I mean, it’s not like any part of what I just listed is not common knowledge. At this point, I basically see people trying to cite fictional caricatures of what they believe Trump supporters are like, whilst denying reality unless they only get their news from The View.

Glenn, any thoughts on those conservatives protesting complete state lockdown and financial ruin? Are they or are they not campaigning to open up the economy again? Glenn, were you completely unaware of the fact that Trump is the first President to make taking on China a priority and then he promptly did so? If Trump supporters are so in favor of the free market and “learn to code”, why is Trump reforming H1B visa abuse (by liberal Silicone Valley companies) and why he is so openly protectionist? I mean, where do you get your news from? None of this is not common knowledge. Trump is fighting China economically. Trump is a protectionist when it comes to trade. Conservatives are the ones doing grass roots protesting to open up state economies and help the working people (see Michigan).

Orange man bad, bad orange man, orange man bad. Bad orange man bad orange man, and orange man bad. Orange man bad bad bad, bad orange man... orange man bad (bad orange man is bad orange man). Orange bad bad bad, so bad orange man.

[AKDoug]

Clearly I live in Bizarro World as most Trump supporters (Fools) I know are in favor of opening up the country again to aid workers affected by the covid crisis (which puts them on the other side of Democratic governors), they (Fools) elected the the first President ever whom made a central campaign issue of combatting China in trade, specifically jobs and intellectual property theft, and he also made H1B visa reform a campaign issue. I mean, it’s not like any part of what I just listed is not common knowledge. At this point, I basically see people trying to cite fictional caricatures of what they believe Trump supporters (Fools) are like, whilst denying reality unless they only get their news from The View.

Glenn, any thoughts on those conservatives (Fools) protesting complete state lockdown and financial ruin? Are they (Fools) or are they not campaigning to open up the economy again? Glenn, were you completely unaware of the fact that Trump is the first President to make taking on China a priority and then he promptly did so? If Trump supporters (Fools) are so in favor of the free market and “learn to code”, why is Trump reforming H1B visa abuse (by liberal Silicone Valley companies) and why he is so openly protectionist? I mean, where do you get your news from? None of this is not common knowledge. Trump is fighting China economically. Trump is a protectionist when it comes to trade. Conservatives (Fools) are the ones doing grass roots protesting to open up state economies and help the working people (see Michigan).

This is what I've learned how many on this forum view Trump supporters (Fools) The TDS is so deep that >>(Fools) is automatically imprinted on their brains every time someone points out something good Trump has done. I can predict who on this forum will quote me on this within 24 hours. Like you LittleLebowski, it get's tiresome to be constantly stereotyped.

[UNK]

That’s generalizing Trump supporters, very such so. Also, inaccurate.

Yes the Trump supporters descriptions boggle the mind. I used to think who are these supporters and more importantly where are they but now i just write it of to those suffering from DJT syndrome. Theres no hope for those folks. Amazingly it seems a some of them are highly educated and you would think considering the lefts hard lurch towards communism they would jump ship. I guess education isnt everything.

[blues]

This is what I've learned how many on this forum view Trump supporters (Fools) The TDS is so deep that >>(Fools) is automatically imprinted on their brains every time someone points out something good Trump has done. I can predict who on this forum will quote me on this within 24 hours. Like you LittleLebowski, it get's tiresome to be constantly stereotyped.

AKDoug, I have no dog in this fight, but don't you think it's disingenuous to complain about being pigeonholed when so much pigeonholing is directed toward folks who may not share your point of view? Libtards, socialists, TDS, etc etc etc. (I don't mean to imply that you're the one doing the finger pointing or ostracizing.)

I don't mind admitting that while I voted for Trump, because there was no way I could vote for Hillary; and won't vote for the Dem candidates this time around either, because philosophical differences...I still find Trump distasteful as both a human and a president. The man is virtually incapable of telling the truth. He makes used car salesmen look good. (Apologies in advance to used car salesmen.)

But anyway, I won't be voting for the Dems, so there's that. (But how bad they are doesn't make him smell any better...to me, at least.)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My comments are what I was told when I was in favor of acting to curb the move of factories overseas. My point is that some of these folks had a disconnect between their support of Trump on social issues and then switching gears to wanting free trade to increase corporate profits and their personal wealth.

In fact, I am all in favor of a few Trump initiatives, such as controlling exploitative trade relations with China. So I'm quite aware of his actions on those issues. Let's get that straight. I was discussing other folks.

I have problems with Trump and conservatives on other social issues. Rational control of the border, making our manufacturing world class again, fine with me. More proactive support of the RKBA - judges are not enough and his commentary after some horror shows that demonstrative reflexive responses not supportive of the 2nd Amendment bother me. Saying you are a great defender - he's mixed on that.

Is that clear folks? The problematic utterances amazed me as they were a disconnect. They should have been supportive of strict trade policies but then they veered off. I do recall standard GOP being quite opposed to such actions against China.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That’s generalizing Trump supporters, very such so. Also, inaccurate.

Duh, LL - did I generalize, I was talking about a set of friends. Did I say I took a national survey?


It is such an interesting divide. I have friends who are in love with Trump for his social policies. Gun rights! Sexuality control issues! Religous Freedom. Evil poor wanting to be on the social welfare handout.

These are real people who are dear friends of decades. We fight over these issues over many old man lunches. Hunting and shooting in the Hill Country. Blasting away on the range.

[bigbob]

I’m all for buying American. But what red dot that’s made here did you find for $10 more than the Chicom version? You do know that Sig, Primary Arms, even Vortex low end optics are made in China or assembled here with parts from China? And EOTech is mud because their product was proven unreliable and the company lacking in ethics. Aimpoint is Swedish. Which made in the USA red dots are you using? someone else--moderator-received the e-mail sent to you, probably have to ask him for a copy

[LittleLebowski]

Orange man bad, bad orange man, orange man bad. Bad orange man bad orange man, and orange man bad. Orange man bad bad bad, bad orange man... orange man bad (bad orange man is bad orange man). Orange bad bad bad, so bad orange man.

Orange man supporters bad.

[BehindBlueI's]

someone else--moderator-received the e-mail sent to you, probably have to ask him for a copy


bigbob Please stop replying to thread comments on here via email. When theJanitor mentioned you earlier with the “@“ symbol, that was meant to alert you of him communicating with you, in this thread. It was not an email and you replying to “webmaster@pistol-forum” just meant that I got an unsolicited email from YOU, FULL OF CAPITALIZATION.

https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/thats-not-how-this-works-thats-not-how-any-of-this-works.jpg

[Borderland]

All you have to do is look at who shops at Walmart these days. I don't normally shop there but I've been there a few times. One of the reasons I stopped going there was they seem to have a problem here with parking lot vandalism. I've experienced that twice at the local Walmart. That suggests to me that the people that shop there have some sort of hatred for people who drive expensive vehicles like the one I was driving at the time. Walmart has become a place where the lower income folks shop.

So in a way the Chinese were making things lower income families could afford. When those items are no longer available or the prices increase due to tariffs or US manufacturing, the lower income folks are going to get squeezed really hard and the growing wage gap will get wider. If the lower wage earners have to spend more for just about everything they buy that essentially lowers their standard of living even more.

If Walmart went out of business tomorrow I doubt I would notice, but I'm sure a lot of people would. The trade war with China is a war on lower income families in the US. Those products will never be made here in the US because of the expense to make them here.

I'll make a prediction here that many more manufacturers here in the US will cease to exist in the next few years. The auto and aircraft industry is in deep kimchi. Corp tax cuts and bailouts are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. C19 is going to move things along a little faster now.

[Borderland]

This is what I've learned how many on this forum view Trump supporters (Fools) The TDS is so deep that >>(Fools) is automatically imprinted on their brains every time someone points out something good Trump has done. I can predict who on this forum will quote me on this within 24 hours. Like you LittleLebowski, it get's tiresome to be constantly stereotyped.

Obligatory quote. :D

Lets have a little fun with this.

[Lex Luthier]

Dear Mr. Lebowski,

If I may impose on your munificence for just a moment.

I am a prince of the Yerbooty tribe which is currently in grave danger of being wiped out.

As a prince of the Bidets yourself, you know the dangers that we royals are faced with.

Thankfully, our coffers are yet flush.

I would like to send you 7,560,000 in Fredonian marks to be deposited in your account with the Bank of Amazon, Palmetto, Brownells and Natchez.

For your gracious solicitude, we will recompense you with 1,000,000 Fredonian marks for your efforts to protect yet another royal brand.

Please, provide your bank account number and passwords so that we can forward the funds directally via wired transference.

We plan to make these deposits on an anal basis and hope you will find it refreshing to do business with our tribal council.

Sincerely,

Prince Bleedin Hemo Royd



I got a headache trying to decide whether this should be read in the manner & voice of Groucho Marx or that of Frank Zappa.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If folks read the McMaster Atlantic article: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/05/mcmaster-china-strategy/609088/
here's a telling quote:


Our last meeting of the state visit, in the Great Hall of the People, was with Li Keqiang, the premier of the State Council and the titular head of China’s government. If anyone in the American group had any doubts about China’s view of its relationship with the United States, Li’s monologue would have removed them. He began with the observation that China, having already developed its industrial and technological base, no longer needed the United States. He dismissed U.S. concerns over unfair trade and economic practices, indicating that the U.S. role in the future global economy would merely be to provide China with raw materials, agricultural products, and energy to fuel its production of the world’s cutting-edge industrial and consumer products.

We will be a vassal state and some folks in the economic elite will profit and that's ok with them. My point, BTW, before.

The cheap goods will keep the peasants in minimal comfort with their low level jobs. John Scalzi (great author) had one of his characters in the the Last Emperox book (about the fall of a space emperor) say: "Civilization was designed to keep the rich as rich as possible and the poor from actively starving so that they wouldn't think to rise up and behead the rich."

Being a vassal to China to enrich some and cheap WalMart goods to placate the less well to do, sounds like that plan to me.

[blues]

I got a headache trying to decide whether this should be read in the manner & voice of Groucho Marx or that of Frank Zappa.

It was written with Harpo in mind. ;)

[El Cid]

https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/thats-not-how-this-works-thats-not-how-any-of-this-works.jpg

Lmao! I scared the dog because I laughed so hard at that!

[willie]

Chinese and U.S. economies are so intertwined that that untying this knot is unlikely. When Trump brags about the U.S. having had the best economy in the world pre-covid-19, is it not odd that it occurred during this time of our "jobs" being in China? When we shipped manufacturing to China, we also lost capability. The actual machinery to manufacture is gone along with the knowledge to implement the process. I regret this fact. However, I do not see how changing it will happen. Changing the topic slightly I must express this: we have been in bed with China for a long time. How can we be surprised about the way they handled the disease including its coverup?

I understand that China owns much of the paper on our debt. They bought it. Can someone explain who will be buying the paper on the trillions to be spent on the covid-19 bailout?

I am a Trump supporter. My wife is a Trumpette. I reserve the right to criticize him. I wish that he would think before he speaks. I said the same about Bush whose isms I read when I'm bored.

[Borderland]

I do recall standard GOP being quite opposed to such actions against China.


Before he became Trump's vice-presidential nominee, Mike Pence supported every free-trade agreement that came before him. That record puts him squarely at odds with Trump on one of the signature issues of the businessman's presidential campaign.
Pence backed trade agreements with Colombia, South Korea, Panama, Peru, Oman, Chile and Singapore during his House tenure from 2001 through 2012.
He voted to keep the US in the World Trade Organization and to maintain permanent normal trade relations with China, the country Trump repeatedly criticizes for unfair trade practices.
Pence also has publicly supported the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement of Pacific Rim nations, which Trump opposes and has likened to rape.
Pence wrote, "Reducing tariffs and other trade barriers is something that Congress must do. I encourage your support for any trade-related measures when they are brought before the Congress."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Welcome to politics. When career calls, opposition to Politician X fades from the those who want to advance themselves through servitude to the one that they thought was previously evil.

Shall I list all of them? Kamala Harris wants to be VP but attacked Biden as a rapist. Metoo but Biden gets a pass. Lindsay Graham, the new press secretary - both denounced Donald in very strong terms.

The conflict between career and money vs. ideology - what wins in most cases?

[Grey]

The OP has like 5 posts since he became a member, y'all got trolled into making a 7 page discussion about this all caps boomer shit...

[blues]

The OP has like 5 posts since he became a member, y'all got trolled into making a 7 page discussion about this all caps boomer shit...

So bigbob writes his forum name in lower case but answers emails in ALL CAPS?

Verrrry Interrrressting. I'm sure Sigmund would have something to say about this.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The OP has like 5 posts since he became a member, y'all got trolled into making a 7 page discussion about this all caps boomer shit...

Because I'm stuck in the house, can't shoot or go to the range and watching anime all day! Big thrill is going to the store and getting take out. THAT'S WHY - ALSO TO GET LL ALL EXCITED ABOUT ORANGE MAN. HAHAHAHA!

[Caballoflaco]

I THINK THE BATTERIES on your HEARING AIDS are going OUT. Maybe y’all could stop yelling.

Also, I think Grey is probably a commie prevert.

[SouthNarc]

It's not just corporations that are better off because of Chinese manufacturing. It's small business too. Like ShivWorks Products Group.

ShivWorks cutlery is more available and less expensive and overall BETTER than it's ever been because of Chinese manufacturing. Period. You have better quality and we make more money than we ever have because of China.

You want a Clinch Pick less than $100? It's coming from China motherfuckers. OUR Chinese manufacturer is HONORABLE, timely, and easy to do business with. When they fuck up they own it.

Clinch Picks were out of production for 3 years because of millennial American fucktards that had neither business sense or manufacturing excellence. I'll stick with the Chinese.

[JAD]

While I asked Navin what I did because I wanted to understand his context, I do have my own opinion. For my own context, I have spent 28 years at small businesses exporting American products made with a good degree of foreign components. My customers have included both small and global companies operating within PRC and a number of their neighbors, and I first started doing business in the PRC in ‘94. I’ve spent a total of something like a year of my life in China; I’ve had direct reports there; I’ve participated in JVs and divestitures; and I work in an ITAR environment. I have several friends of many years who live in China, both expats (from Taiwan and Singapore) and natives, and I’ve been to two weddings and a funeral. It is a moderately informed opinion.

I think being ‘opposed to China,’ by trying not to buy stuff made there, or by working to avoid entanglements like offshoring or cooperative research (that’s an important one), is a good idea. I don’t disagree that we make China better for its people by engaging with it, but I do think the cost in damage to our country and our businesses is too great. I think people are basically good no matter where they live or were born, but I also think that some groups act for their own good (or desires) at the expense and to the detriment of other groups. All things compete for resources, but there are just and unjust ways to do so, and China routinely crosses that line with respect to America.


I think we can only do so much, and I won’t inconvenience myself to any great degree either. I don’t know what the best thing to do is.

I do know that tariffs suck balls. Let’s say that an American small business is value adding >50% to a Chinese component and exporting it to Europe. Put 20% tariffs on that component— for instance — and there is no motivation to do that. That small business might set up assembly in Europe to deliver a competitive product there. What did the US gain? Incidentally , in my hypothetical, there is not enough motivation to cause that component to be fabbed in the US because of economies of scale.

[BehindBlueI's]

The OP has like 5 posts since he became a member, y'all got trolled into making a 7 page discussion about this all caps boomer shit...

It wasn't originally it's own thread. It was a shit post in a flashlight or optic thread, can't recall. I assume LL made it it's own thread because I didn't. Shit post results in shit thread. But I'm in the mood to wallow in the depravity, personally.

[BehindBlueI's]

It's not just corporations that are better off because of Chinese manufacturing. It's small business too. Like ShivWorks Products Group.

ShivWorks cutlery is more available and less expensive and overall BETTER than it's ever been because of Chinese manufacturing. Period. You have better quality and we make more money than we ever have because of China.

You want a Clinch Pick less than $100? It's coming from China motherfuckers. OUR Chinese manufacturer is HONORABLE, timely, and easy to do business with. When they fuck up they own it.

Clinch Picks were out of production for 3 years because of millennial American fucktards that had neither business sense or manufacturing excellence. I'll stick with the Chinese.

I get that. And you know I love you and would stab somebody in the taint by your side any time. But let me ask you: How did we get to that point?

We're roughly the same age. Remember when Buck and Case were made in the USA? Remember when, unless you lost it, they were a lifetime knife? What if that hadn't been lost? What if, instead of off shoring that, we'd kept that capability?

I'm 100% in agreement with you on where reality is today. I just think there's a reason we've gotten here and it's not because consumers weren't consuming when things cost a few pennies more. It's because we got to this "maximum return on minimum investment" mindset, you had to constantly show growth for the shareholders, etc. We bled ourselves dry doing it. So you have to off-shore because the capability is just gone.

The question is, can we get it back? Or are we just fucked in the long term and America and a middle class is a failed experiment because of myopic growth chasing?

[blues]

The question is, can we get it back? Or are we just fucked in the long term and America and a middle class is a failed experiment because of myopic growth chasing?

Sorry, BBI. The only things we can count on being produced in the United States anymore are WeatherTech floor mats and my puns and dad jokes.

Oh yeah, SunSetter awnings are proudly assembled in the United States.


(Aside to SouthNarc: I totally get and respect that you have to work with what's real and available. There is absolutely no dishonor there and anyone who would say otherwise is talking out of their ass.)

[SouthNarc]

I get that. And you know I love you and would stab somebody in the taint by your side any time. But let me ask you: How did we get to that point?

We're roughly the same age. Remember when Buck and Case were made in the USA? Remember when, unless you lost it, they were a lifetime knife? What if that hadn't been lost? What if, instead of off shoring that, we'd kept that capability?

I'm 100% in agreement with you on where reality is today. I just think there's a reason we've gotten here and it's not because consumers weren't consuming when things cost a few pennies more. It's because we got to this "maximum return on minimum investment" mindset, you had to constantly show growth for the shareholders, etc. We bled ourselves dry doing it. So you have to off-shore because the capability is just gone.

The question is, can we get it back? Or are we just fucked in the long term and America and a middle class is a failed experiment because of myopic growth chasing?


Dude I tried getting Clinch Picks mid-teched with 6 different companies and individuals from 2004-2010. EVERY, SINGLE ONE......to a MAN....flaked out. That's the knife world bro. I had given up on the knives ever being made again and so had my business partner Shannon. We were out of production for three years until an Austrian kid who was working for my current Chinese manufacturer came to seminar I was doing in the UK and asked if I was interested in Chinese manufacturing. He brokered the deal, the prototyping, and they were the first people I had EVER done business with that had ever actually met a timeline and did what the fuck they said they were going to do. Seriously man I was REALLY averse to it. In fact....if you go run down my posts at TPI, you can see where I actually come into the community and ask how they feel about overseas..specifically Chinese manufacturing.

So....not my first rodeo here dude and as old poleese in his second career trying to figure out business and how to provide a good product I can actually make money on, let me say it AGAIN...I'll stick with China.

[SouthNarc]

I get that. And you know I love you and would stab somebody in the taint by your side any time. But let me ask you: How did we get to that point?

We're roughly the same age. Remember when Buck and Case were made in the USA? Remember when, unless you lost it, they were a lifetime knife? What if that hadn't been lost? What if, instead of off shoring that, we'd kept that capability?

I'm 100% in agreement with you on where reality is today. I just think there's a reason we've gotten here and it's not because consumers weren't consuming when things cost a few pennies more. It's because we got to this "maximum return on minimum investment" mindset, you had to constantly show growth for the shareholders, etc. We bled ourselves dry doing it. So you have to off-shore because the capability is just gone.

The question is, can we get it back? Or are we just fucked in the long term and America and a middle class is a failed experiment because of myopic growth chasing?


And just so you know....Buck and Case went to China WAAAAAYYY before I did brother!!:D

[BehindBlueI's]

And just so you know....Buck and Case went to China WAAAAAYYY before I did brother!!:D

Yeah, that was largely my point. The big guys did it and now we're stuck where we are. I wasn't disputing the reality of what you deal with and certainly wasn't proposing you are wrong to do so. I was proposing an alternate reality where that movement never happened and playing "what if..." based on that. What if we'd actually retained that capability and talent in the US? What if you didn't have to go to China? And is it possible to ever reverse what actually happened?

[SouthNarc]

The question is, can we get it back? Or are we just fucked in the long term and America and a middle class is a failed experiment because of myopic growth chasing?

In manufacturing? Fuck no. I don't see it. They run rings around us.

[SouthNarc]

Yeah, that was largely my point. The big guys did it and now we're stuck where we are. I wasn't disputing the reality of what you deal with and certainly wasn't proposing you are wrong to do so. I was proposing an alternate reality where that movement never happened and playing "what if..." based on that. What if we'd actually retained that capability and talent in the US? What if you didn't have to go to China? And is it possible to ever reverse what actually happened?


Dude I'll tell you this. I felt like a total un-American sell-out motherfucker when we finally inked our deal with China. After 6 months and a ton of HAPPY customers and more money than we ever made on cutlery? Haven't looked back. That's the reality.

[blues]

Spyderco has a number of their knives made in Golden, CO...and many other models made overseas. Their Taichung (Taiwan) knives are very well received and respected but I try to patronize the USA made blades in an effort to support American industry. They also have knives made in Japan and Italy...as well as China.

If we're ever to bring industry back to the U.S., it's not going to happen overnight. But there's no reason not to foster its reemergence.

[TCinVA]

Dude I tried getting Clinch Picks mid-teched with 6 different companies and individuals from 2004-2010. EVERY, SINGLE ONE......to a MAN....flaked out. That's the knife world bro. I had given up on the knives ever being made again and so had my business partner Shannon. We were out of production for three years until an Austrian kid who was working for my current Chinese manufacturer came to seminar I was doing in the UK and asked if I was interested in Chinese manufacturing. He brokered the deal, the prototyping, and they were the first people I had EVER done business with that had ever actually met a timeline and did what the fuck they said they were going to do. Seriously man I was REALLY averse to it. In fact....if you go run down my posts at TPI, you can see where I actually come into the community and ask how they feel about overseas..specifically Chinese manufacturing.

So....not my first rodeo here dude and as old poleese in his second career trying to figure out business and how to provide a good product I can actually make money on, let me say it AGAIN...I'll stick with China.

China is complicated.

There is an element of China today that is just like China from the fall of the Qing Dynasty until World War II. That was a period where enterprising industrialists invested in new technologies, built factories, and for a period of time managed to flourish. They navigated the network of warlord fiefdoms, western protectorates, natural disasters, famines, and other problems and managed to bring China into the industrial age.

And then Mao took over, nationalized all the factories, confiscated all their wealth, had a bunch of them murdered, and plunged the nation into famine because he did what dipshit socialists always do when they get power and have no idea how anything works.

The modern equivalents to those industrialists from the Chinese Warlord period face the same danger. They have a positive outlook towards the west and would like nothing more than to do mutually beneficial business...but I don't think the Chinese government is going to permit that. Chinese entrepreneurs who have success are generally buying property and assets in other countries so that they have some safeguard against the government repeating Mao's confiscations. And they've usually got low-key bugout plans to avoid suffering the same fate pre-war industrialists faced at the hands of Mao's cadres.

China's government has succeeded massively where the USSR's failed because they have successfully capitalized (irony) on profit motive. The CCP has completely weaponized economics against our interests in a way that America hasn't seen before.

Just as an example, there are Chinese "police" patrolling Italian cities right now. Russian police patrolling Milan in the Cold War would have been unthinkable. But it happened with the CCP and people hardly batted an eye.

I think there's a point at which this all comes to a head, and probably in the not-too-distant future.

America can't go back to "normal" with the Chinese because it's now abundantly apparent to everybody the extent to which economics have been weaponized. China has been growing more belligerent and combative. And telling the world that they could cut off medical supplies to the United States during this 'Rona problem didn't exactly set anyone's mind at ease. That one landed pretty hard and we're likely to hear about it again and again in the next quarter century.

The redefinition will be tricky and I'm not sure DC has the brain power to actually pull it off. They're too busy fighting with each other over bullshit to score short term political points to deal with a long term strategic threat. A long term strategic threat that has made a lot of people in the DC orbit quite rich.

We either end up at war, the CCP gets deposed by an internal revolution (unlikely since the CCP has zero hesitation to run people over with tanks to preserve power), or we see some of the most impressive statesmanship in our lifetime done by some people in DC who wield US military and economic power like a scalpel and manage to cut just the right spots so that the big red dragon hemorrhages at a rate that makes them weaker but not fast enough to realize how badly they're bleeding before they pass out.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that last possibility...

[Joe in PNG]

I really & strongly doubt that the CCP will be here come 2030.

They're a mix of Japan Inc bubble and old USSR internal rot & corruption*- and Corona-Chan isn't exactly going to help with either.

Now, while rolling your tanks over your own people can help in the short run, there's only so many times you can unleash the Cossaks before they stop listening to you - just ask Tsar Nicky or the late Conducător of Romania.


*remember when either of those was supposed to bury us?

[Yung]

I really & strongly doubt that the CCP will be here come 2030.

I would take a second glance at international students at college campuses, and H1Bs in businesses.
Ask misanthropist how he feels about Vancouver and by extension the rest of Canada. He's given a couple of hints before.

Edit: Don't forget about Smithfield.

[Joe in PNG]

I would take a second glance at international students at college campuses, and H1Bs in businesses.
Ask misanthropist how he feels about Vancouver and by extension the rest of Canada. He's given a couple of hints before.

Edit: Don't forget about Smithfield.

Do you think all of them are committed Communist? Selfless New Soviet Men?
They're just Chinese people traveling and working and studying abroad, nothing more. If anything, those who return are less likely to put up with endless nonsense from their government, not more.

The Smithfield thing? Remember when Japan owned everything?

[willie]

It's not just corporations that are better off because of Chinese manufacturing. It's small business too. Like ShivWorks Products Group.

ShivWorks cutlery is more available and less expensive and overall BETTER than it's ever been because of Chinese manufacturing. Period. You have better quality and we make more money than we ever have because of China.

You want a Clinch Pick less than $100? It's coming from China motherfuckers. OUR Chinese manufacturer is HONORABLE, timely, and easy to do business with. When they fuck up they own it.

Clinch Picks were out of production for 3 years because of millennial American fucktards that had neither business sense or manufacturing excellence. I'll stick with the Chinese.

I assume that knockoff copies of your product come from China. If so, does their government make an effort to penalize the trespassers?

[Yung]

Do you think all of them are committed Communist? Selfless New Soviet Men?
They're just--


I was not taking you literally in the post I initially replied to. I incorrectly presumed you knew that.
I really don't have the energy nor patience to for this as I thought I did, so I apologize for saying anything and dipping out right afterward.
G'night.

[javemtr]

In manufacturing? Fuck no. I don't see it. They run rings around us.
Have you ever guesstimated what a midtech Clinch Pick would cost if it were produced by let's say Spyderco in their CO factory out of S30V? I'm just curious! Thanks!

[SouthNarc]

I assume that knockoff copies of your product come from China. If so, does their government make an effort to penalize the trespassers?

Nope.

[SouthNarc]

Have you ever guesstimated what a midtech Clinch Pick would cost if it were produced by let's say Spyderco in their CO factory out of S30V? I'm just curious! Thanks!

We were paying $165 over 10 years ago for a mid-teched blade made from S30V and Paul Bos heat treating.

And yes.....with my relationship with Spyderco I most assuredly talked to Sal and Erik about them making Clinch Picks for us and we could have easily done so, at Spyderco American made prices. In the mean time broke ass cops are gonna pay $40 retail for a TDI that more than likely if used is gonna end up for a year or so in an evidence bag.

One of the goals of going to a China was to try and create a sub $100 CP for the end user. We managed to do that and make a better profit as a business.

[mtnbkr]

Personally/professionally I have concerns beyond manufacturing. My area is IT Security Services and I'm seeing more and more of the less complex, but non-regulated (govt, specific industries, etc), work moving to what we refer to as "lower cost economies" (ie India and similar places). Americans can compete on ability when it comes to the complex or technically creative work, but not on the transactional work that is more akin to repetitive factory tasks. Because we can hire 4+ in a lower-cost-economy for the cost of 1 American, you simply can't argue against it. Even in those grey areas where there might be a discussion around skills and capability, I can hire 3-4 overseas AND fund training for the cost of 1 American. Our customers expect a price that simply can't be met by using 1st world resources for most things.

I do worry that the standard of living, the consumerism, etc provided by the general post-WWII economy and the periodic upward blips, have set an expectation we can't maintain. What I'm seeing in my area of work is more and more going overseas due to cost and only the bleeding edge or regulation-limited work remaining. Once bleeding edge becomes the new normal, it leaves our shores. Not everyone can do the bleeding edge stuff (this is akin to telling the out-of-work factory laborer to learn to code) and not everyone is located where they can easily pick up the regulated work (not to mention if they can pass background checks for certain "industries").

I wonder if we're pricing ourselves out of all manner of work, not just manufacturing.

Chris

[RoyGBiv]

If folks read the McMaster Atlantic article: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/05/mcmaster-china-strategy/609088/
here's a telling quote:



We will be a vassal state and some folks in the economic elite will profit and that's ok with them. My point, BTW, before.

The cheap goods will keep the peasants in minimal comfort with their low level jobs. John Scalzi (great author) had one of his characters in the the Last Emperox book (about the fall of a space emperor) say: "Civilization was designed to keep the rich as rich as possible and the poor from actively starving so that they wouldn't think to rise up and behead the rich."

Being a vassal to China to enrich some and cheap WalMart goods to placate the less well to do, sounds like that plan to me.

Just because he believes that in his smug echo chamber of single party overconfidence doesn't mean it's true.

[RoyGBiv]

Nope.

Make a deal with your factory and let them trademark your products for the China market, then set them free to pursue infringers in Chinese courts. If you don't currently have plans to pursue China retail sales it could be a win win.

[RoyGBiv]

I really & strongly doubt that the CCP will be here come 2030.

They're a mix of Japan Inc bubble and old USSR internal rot & corruption*- and Corona-Chan isn't exactly going to help with either.

Now, while rolling your tanks over your own people can help in the short run, there's only so many times you can unleash the Cossaks before they stop listening to you - just ask Tsar Nicky or the late Conducător of Romania.


*remember when either of those was supposed to bury us?

I think your time line is a bit optimistic but agree with you otherwise.

[RoyGBiv]

Do you think all of them are committed Communist? Selfless New Soviet Men?
They're just Chinese people traveling and working and studying abroad, nothing more. If anything, those who return are less likely to put up with endless nonsense from their government, not more.

The Smithfield thing? Remember when Japan owned everything?
Agreed. Trade and travel will be key to unraveling government control. However....
It's quite difficult to get exit visas for your whole family to travel abroad simultaneously.
Exit visa? Yes, exit requires permission.
Read between the lines re incentives, controls and motivations.

[JAD]

In a thread where we’re talking about, or should be talking about, doing less business with a country that like all other communist countries is a murderous dictatorship, it’s fun to see some posters using the old commie language of the prospering fat cats and the poor oppressed workers.

[NH Shooter]

It doesn't seem that long ago that "made in Japan" was associated with cheap and inferior. Now look what that phrase means (cars, optics, etc.).

We are witnessing the same trajectory with "made in China." Politics, theft of IP, etc. aside, a growing number of Chinese vendors are getting very good at making quality items. They aren't great at designing, but send them the drawings and full specifications and the result can be excellent quality at a price that cannot be matched anywhere. As a product manager involved in the design and manufacturing of valves, I witness this every day. My experience with the Chinese vendors we deal with mirrors SouthNarc 's observation - they take pride in what they do and are excellent to work with.

I am also aware that the quotes we get defy explanation. Our in-house analysis indicates that the quotes barely cover cost of material, so how can the price be that low? I have believe that the flip (bad) side is that the Chinese government is actively conducting economic warfare on the U.S. by subsidizing its own manufacturing base to gain an unfair advantage. If the Chi-com's long term goal is to neuter American manufacturing capability, they are well on their way.

One product I am currently getting ready to launch is a brass-body valve that we're having made in China, only because (1) all of our competitors' valves are made there and (2) it's the only way we could compete in the open market. In this regard, it's either "made in China" or we stand to lose tens of millions of dollars in market share.

Is there a way out of this predicament? Yes, but just like getting into bed with them took time, getting out will take time too. In the case of the valve I'm working on, we are moving to an injection-molded composite body valve that will be produced in N. America because full automation will bring the price down to where we can compete. So that next gen valve may not be made in China, but its unlikely to result in any new U.S. jobs either. In the larger picture, the company I work for is deliberately charting a course out of China, something I believe is now happening in many sectors of manufacturing. But China will remain a strong competitor as they now have the expertise to do so thanks in large measure to us (as in all of us).

[JAD]

.

One of the goals of going to a China was to try and create a sub $100 CP for the end user. We managed to do that and make a better profit as a business.

I certainly have no beef. I have lived similar cases and made the same decision — some stuff works better in China, and your goal as a person in business has to be getting product to market at a cost and price that makes sense for both parties in the sale. It’s just physics.

There are some fairly unique factors with the CP.

It is sold in very low volumes chiefly on the strength of its brand, and that brand is highly personal. The volumes make it unattractive to knock off, and the personal brand relationship makes it hard to penetrate the sale with a knock off. The intellectual property content is delivered as much by the brand as the thing.

For those of us who make (or have made) things for whom that is less true, the fact that the CCP actively incentivizes attacks on intellectual property is more problematic. That was the problem with some of the stuff I used to sell. A big value component of what I sell now is safety, and that’s more your circumstance — people would be disinclined to buy a knockoff of my thing because our brand delivers the safety value. However, if TingTang knocked off my thing and then sold it to Tyco, who rebranded it... I could have issues. I can see the same thing evolving for you with Cold Steel or CRKT, but again the threat is mitigated by the personal relationship your buyers have with your brand specifically.

[UNK]

AKDoug, I have no dog in this fight, but don't you think it's disingenuous to complain about being pigeonholed when so much pigeonholing is directed toward folks who may not share your point of view? Libtards, socialists, TDS, etc etc etc. (I don't mean to imply that you're the one doing the finger pointing or ostracizing.)

I don't mind admitting that while I voted for Trump, because there was no way I could vote for Hillary; and won't vote for the Dem candidates this time around either, because philosophical differences...I still find Trump distasteful as both a human and a president. The man is virtually incapable of telling the truth. He makes used car salesmen look good. (Apologies in advance to used car salesmen.)

But anyway, I won't be voting for the Dems, so there's that. (But how bad they are doesn't make him smell any better...to me, at least.)

So Blues, Ive heard you state along these lines more than once. Im curious are there any past Presidents who meet your criteria?

[rob_s]

If we would just go back to letting the illegals slip in (not legalize them, not allow them access to government aid, not allow them to vote, etc. just let them slip in like we used to) then we could have everything manufactured in America, the aspirational class could feel good about themselves, and everything would be hunky dory.

ETA:
option B is to buy robots from China so that we can automate the manufacturing in America. Thereby again assuaging the guilty conscious of the aspirational class yet maintaining the reduced price we’ve all gotten used to (even if we are just financing even those reduced costs at every level from the gov to the manufacturer to the distributor to the retailer to the purchaser and their gold card).

[UNK]

It doesn't seem that long ago that "made in Japan" was associated with cheap and inferior. Now look what that phrase means (cars, optics, etc.).

We are witnessing the same trajectory with "made in China." Politics, theft of IP, etc. aside, a growing number of Chinese vendors are getting very good at making quality items. They aren't great at designing, but send them the drawings and full specifications and the result can be excellent quality at a price that cannot be matched anywhere. As a product manager involved in the design and manufacturing of valves, I witness this every day. My experience with the Chinese vendors we deal with mirrors SouthNarc 's observation - they take pride in what they do and are excellent to work with.

I am also aware that the quotes we get defy explanation. Our in-house analysis indicates that the quotes barely cover cost of material, so how can the price be that low? I have believe that the flip (bad) side is that the Chinese government is actively conducting economic warfare on the U.S. by subsidizing its own manufacturing base to gain an unfair advantage. If the Chi-com's long term goal is to neuter American manufacturing capability, they are well on their way.

One product I am currently getting ready to launch is a brass-body valve that we're having made in China, only because (1) all of our competitors' valves are made there and (2) it's the only way we could compete in the open market. In this regard, it's either "made in China" or we stand to lose tens of millions of dollars in market share.

Is there a way out of this predicament? Yes, but just like getting into bed with them took time, getting out will take time too. In the case of the valve I'm working on, we are moving to an injection-molded composite body valve that will be produced in N. America because full automation will bring the price down to where we can compete. So that next gen valve may not be made in China, but its unlikely to result in any new U.S. jobs either. In the larger picture, the company I work for is deliberately charting a course out of China, something I believe is now happening in many sectors of manufacturing. But China will remain a strong competitor as they now have the expertise to do so thanks in large measure to us (as in all of us).

Now substitute illegal alien and we are doing the same thing here. Contractors cannot compete with companies that hire illegals for substandard wages. The time will come when those substandard wages wages wont get it and those workers will only work for more money. It has already happened in my area not to mention they are starting their own companies.

On a separate note while that individual valve may not provide more jobs surely it will help the chosen facilities ability to keep people on the payroll and be more profitable. If enough work comes back it will change things at the local level. I dont think DJT is looking at this as a long term solution. I think he wants it to happen now. I hope he is successful.

[JAD]

If we would just go back to letting the illegals slip in (not legalize them, not allow them access to government aid, not allow them to vote, etc. just let them slip in like we used to) then we could have everything manufactured in America, the aspirational class could feel good about themselves, and everything would be hunky dory.

ETA:
option B is to buy robots from China so that we can automate the manufacturing in America. Thereby again assuaging the guilty conscious of the aspirational class yet maintaining the reduced price we’ve all gotten used to (even if we are just financing even those reduced costs at every level from the gov to the manufacturer to the distributor to the retailer to the purchaser and their gold card).

None of the above matches my experience. The cost of labor in the US is not what makes us less competitive. Our tax burden, the difficulty we have employing and unemploying people, and the wild advantages the CCP gives to businesses (yes, our government incentivizes business; no, it is absolutely nothing like what the CCP does) make it a non-starter unless Americans are willing to work harder, be smarter, and pay more.

[fixer]

I'm 100% in agreement with you on where reality is today. I just think there's a reason we've gotten here and it's not because consumers weren't consuming when things cost a few pennies more. It's because we got to this "maximum return on minimum investment" mindset, you had to constantly show growth for the shareholders, etc. We bled ourselves dry doing it. So you have to off-shore because the capability is just gone.

The question is, can we get it back? Or are we just fucked in the long term and America and a middle class is a failed experiment because of myopic growth chasing?

Not enough of us are asking this question. That is a start--making it a priority.

[fixer]

In manufacturing? Fuck no. I don't see it. They run rings around us.


I think this is also a key point--There is already a dearth of expertise and experience in running a smooth and effective manufacturing operation. From individual operations to the value stream as a whole, we have already lost so much that...even when folks want to make a pocket knife in US its prohibitive on many levels and not just cost.

[TGS]

None of the above matches my experience. The cost of labor in the US is not what makes us less competitive. Our tax burden, the difficulty we have employing and unemploying people, and the wild advantages the CCP gives to businesses (yes, our government incentivizes business; no, it is absolutely nothing like what the CCP does) make it a non-starter unless Americans are willing to work harder, be smarter, and pay more.

Barring some revolutionary technological breakthrough, I just don't understand how we could ever approach Chinese manufacturing efficiency with our concepts of living wages, workers rights, health and safety....not to mention environmental protections.

We'll never come close to a country where people getting hammered to death on machine presses is a normal daily occurrence that is just a part of life.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

BTW, the shipping of jobs overseas will start to take out the professional middle class. Computer work, legal boilerplate, financial planning and taxes, on line education, etc. will start to be done (and is) overseas. They have bright folks who work cheaper. USAA (three years for America's troops) is notorious for that. A friend of mine's husband was a graphic designer. Oops, now done in India.

From what I read, a great deal of our social and family disruption, substance abuse and crime can be related to the loss of stable and decent employment. Across the world, single parent homes with just a mom dramatically increase (with increasing social problems) when stable jobs are lost. A city that loses a good job base can see kids without a father home go from 30% to 70% in a few decades.

I understand the issue of American quality. We don't drive Japanese cars because the American companies did such a great job way back when their wave started. Boeing continues to screw the pooch in the civilian and military markets.

How do we maintain decent jobs for decent folks? Everyone can't design aps for phones. BTW, I have a really neat Chinese field knife I got for $10 bucks at the gun show. Beautiful wood grips, solid through metal tang, sharpens nicely.

Last, the predictions that the Communist government will fall in time X, worth the prediction that Hillary will be president. We don't know. It's reasonable to say that we will fall in a given time scale, also. Who knows?

[willie]

China manufacturers may be relying on vigorous recycling efforts to lower some material costs. Copper, iron, and aluminum are examples. I wonder about theft of product from facility to shipping container. If theft is a minimal expense, then that bestows advantage. Another curiosity for me is this question. Could shipping expense paid by the buyer be subsidizing the manufacturing costs? I assume that Chinese manufacturers have much fewer insurance and liability concerns. There are no health care plan and pension plan expenses. One obvious statement is that the Chinese worker does not yet have the sense of entitlement that the American worker has. Hence he demands less. And then there is the question of prison labor. Is it a myth?

[LittleLebowski]

BTW, the shipping of jobs overseas will start to take out the professional middle class. Computer work, legal boilerplate, financial planning and taxes, on line education, etc. will start to be done (and is) overseas. They have bright folks who work cheaper. USAA (three years for America's troops) is notorious for that. A friend of mine's husband was a graphic designer. Oops, now done in India.

From what I read, a great deal of our social and family disruption, substance abuse and crime can be related to the loss of stable and decent employment. Across the world, single parent homes with just a mom dramatically increase (with increasing social problems) when stable jobs are lost. A city that loses a good job base can see kids without a father home go from 30% to 70% in a few decades.

I understand the issue of American quality. We don't drive Japanese cars because the American companies did such a great job way back when their wave started. Boeing continues to screw the pooch in the civilian and military markets.

How do we maintain decent jobs for decent folks? Everyone can't design aps for phones. BTW, I have a really neat Chinese field knife I got for $10 bucks at the gun show. Beautiful wood grips, solid through metal tang, sharpens nicely.

Last, the predictions that the Communist government will fall in time X, worth the prediction that Hillary will be president. We don't know. It's reasonable to say that we will fall in a given time scale, also. Who knows?

H1B visa reform would help with all of the above. Not to mention tariffs and a policy of protectionism. I agree that the answer to America's prosperity is "jobs".

[blues]

So Blues, Ive heard you state along these lines more than once. Im curious are there any past Presidents who meet your criteria?

I don't think I've laid out a set of criteria. I've expressed why I find the current president's penchant for lying, (among other things), unacceptable.

I shouldn't need to explain to most here the issues I have with the Democratic Party agenda.

To paraphrase HRC...what difference, at this point, does it make...what other presidents that came before have done?

[Joe S]

.

Just as an example, there are Chinese "police" patrolling Italian cities right now.

Can you expand on that more?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Learn from history?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/11/opinion/coronavirus-inequality-history.html



Mr. Cline and Ms. Quinn’s work puts the achievements of the Bronze Age in a new light. The kings of Mycenae and Ugarit worked hand-in-hand with the wealthiest merchants to get rich. They consolidated economic and political power, to stamp out competition from smaller city-states or independent merchants. Mr. Cline described a letter from an Ugarit merchant named Sinaranu, who reported that he didn’t have to pay any import tax when his boats returned from Crete loaded up with grain, beer and olive oil. Apparently, tax breaks for the rich are one of the oldest tricks ever invented by the ruling class.

When their cities were swallowed by fire, the Bronze Age ruling classes lost everything, including the subjects they once controlled. Greece’s population dropped by roughly 50 percent during this time, probably because of a combination of war, drought and migration, according to Sarah Murray, a classics professor at the University of Toronto and author of “The Collapse of the Mycenaean Economy.” Mr. Cline believes that plagues may have driven people into the hinterlands, too.

Wonder what the Alpha Centauri Times of 4000 AD will say about us?

[rob_s]

None of the above matches my experience. The cost of labor in the US is not what makes us less competitive. Our tax burden, the difficulty we have employing and unemploying people, and the wild advantages the CCP gives to businesses (yes, our government incentivizes business; no, it is absolutely nothing like what the CCP does) make it a non-starter unless Americans are willing to work harder, be smarter, and pay more.

outside of my smart ass response, this is kind of my point.

Everyone has all these theories about what killed american manufacturing (chinese subsidizing their factories, american unions, aliens, democrats, republicans...) but it's really just economics at the consumer level. What really killed American manufacturing was a shit product for more money.

if Americans want other Americans to buy American, then they need to use some of that "american ingenuity" (which is really read "letting new people into the country to innovate after the last batch of immigrants become fat, dumb, lazy, and happy") to produce things either cheaper or of better quality. Outside of a sense of 'Merica is anyone really buying a Cadillac because it's a better value in the luxury market? Fuck no. It's still a GM product for christ's sake (excluding the Corvette, I'd buy a Corvette today based on "value" if I were in that market, which actually makes the Corvette a great case study).

The other thing that kills American manufacturing is this flawed notion that people want "long lasting products". Nobody wants that. Everyone wants new hotness. This is obvious when it comes to electronics, where I'd like a TV that lasts about 3 years at the lowest possible price such that it shits the bed in month 37 "requiring" me to buy a new hotness, that I want anyway because it's bigger/brighter/snazzier/thinner/more connected/whatever.

In tools, I don't *want* a drill that will last a lifetime because there will be a better, stronger, longer lasting, more efficient, lighter, and more feature-packed version in 2-4 years. When that new hotness comes out, I don't want to be sitting on a long-lived old-busted that I can't bring myself to throw away even though the new one is measurably better in every single way, i want the old-busted to be... busted at that time and I want to have paid the lowest possible price because I want to get the advantages of the new hotness.

Even products that should have a long life, many of which fit into our "space" are now disposable because of MOAR New Hotness. Look at the knife threads, PDW thread, PCC threads, Glock Gen(new) threads...(and I'm just as guilty here, to be clear).

The key here is "value".

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Everyone has all these theories about what killed american manufacturing (chinese subsidizing their factories, american unions, aliens, democrats, republicans...) but it's really just economics at the consumer level. What really killed American manufacturing was a shit product for more money.

Japanese cars, Glocks, now Italian frigates for the Navy and Norwegian missiles. You have a good point. Bought a Honda Civic and a Ford Tempo at roughly the same time. The Civic went at 250K, the Ford tried to self-destruct about every 30K miles, went to 120K and replaced by another Civic.

[UNK]

I don't think I've laid out a set of criteria. I've expressed why I find the current president's penchant for lying, (among other things), unacceptable.

I shouldn't need to explain to most here the issues I have with the Democratic Party agenda.

To paraphrase HRC...what difference, at this point, does it make...what other presidents that came before have done?

That really wasnt my point. I was just using it as a point of reference in trying to understand exactly where you are coming from. Most of the time I wouldnt even care but your points of view for some reason are important to me. Hell for all I know I may even agree with some of them. You definitely don't strike me as falling into the DJT syndrome camp.
Maybe its better taken up as pm or even dropped.

[critter]

Regardless of who you voted for, most Americans aren’t willing to pay more for things, or get paid less to make things. So should the burden fall on corporations? Reduce prices? Reduce hourly wages? Reduce number of employees? While I’m not thrilled with our entanglements with China, it seems like our country’s economy is just fine with it. I’m sure you’ve heard the expression “vote with your dollar”? Well, it certainly looks like the American consumer has voted.

How about -- if a company moves one job outside the USA, sources cheap parts outside the USA, or imports workers because bean counters don't want to pay living wages in the USA, That company does not sell products to the American market. Shut them out of the market entirely.

Higher worker wages, management and especially upper management earning less where a middle class family can be supported by one working spouse/parent can indeed be accomplished but not as long as poverty ridden semi slave labor is available. That limits choices, but to have it be worth cure -- to restructure and to produce and manufacture the best in the world and have a strong middle class with purchasing power to buy to buy those products, there would be pain involved in the treatment for the economic disease.

Whether that would actually be a viable option is less important than the fact very few are willing to do *anything* if it means pain in the process. We'll get lip service but little else.

[rob_s]

Japanese cars, Glocks, now Italian frigates for the Navy and Norwegian missiles. You have a good point. Bought a Honda Civic and a Ford Tempo at roughly the same time. The Civic went at 250K, the Ford tried to self-destruct about every 30K miles, went to 120K and replaced by another Civic.

thing is, if that Ford had shit the bed at 1/10 the time but cost even only 1/7 as much, you'd probably be fine with it. You can get a new Tempo every 25k miles and that missing 1/3 premium means you always have a new car every year (ish, based on 12k/year average).

[Borderland]

It doesn't seem that long ago that "made in Japan" was associated with cheap and inferior. Now look what that phrase means (cars, optics, etc.).

We are witnessing the same trajectory with "made in China." Politics, theft of IP, etc. aside, a growing number of Chinese vendors are getting very good at making quality items. They aren't great at designing, but send them the drawings and full specifications and the result can be excellent quality at a price that cannot be matched anywhere. As a product manager involved in the design and manufacturing of valves, I witness this every day. My experience with the Chinese vendors we deal with mirrors SouthNarc 's observation - they take pride in what they do and are excellent to work with.

I am also aware that the quotes we get defy explanation. Our in-house analysis indicates that the quotes barely cover cost of material, so how can the price be that low? I have believe that the flip (bad) side is that the Chinese government is actively conducting economic warfare on the U.S. by subsidizing its own manufacturing base to gain an unfair advantage. If the Chi-com's long term goal is to neuter American manufacturing capability, they are well on their way.

One product I am currently getting ready to launch is a brass-body valve that we're having made in China, only because (1) all of our competitors' valves are made there and (2) it's the only way we could compete in the open market. In this regard, it's either "made in China" or we stand to lose tens of millions of dollars in market share.

Is there a way out of this predicament? Yes, but just like getting into bed with them took time, getting out will take time too. In the case of the valve I'm working on, we are moving to an injection-molded composite body valve that will be produced in N. America because full automation will bring the price down to where we can compete. So that next gen valve may not be made in China, but its unlikely to result in any new U.S. jobs either. In the larger picture, the company I work for is deliberately charting a course out of China, something I believe is now happening in many sectors of manufacturing. But China will remain a strong competitor as they now have the expertise to do so thanks in large measure to us (as in all of us).

Just to add to this I have an opinion about vehicles built in Japan. Of course we all knew during the 60's that built in Japan meant junk. Then the 70's rolled thru and everything changed. I purchased my first "made in Japan" vehicle in 1978 right off of the ship. I did that for two reasons. I purchased a new American made vehicle in 73 and it was beyond unreliable and a total POS. I also had just completed a tune up on a friends Civic and was amazed at the quality, especially the drive train. Long story short, every new vehicle I purchased (about 6 more) were all made in Japan. All high quality, reliable and trouble free. Then I decided to purchase another American made vehicle in 07. Bad move. Totally unreliable and a money pit. The old saying burn we once your fault, burn me twice, my fault comes to mind here.

I went shopping for a new vehicle last fall. Never considered buying an American vehicle then and won't in the future. Lots of Japanese companies build vehicles in the US, but a few are still built in Japan. I found one built in Japan and wrote the check.

I'm not sure what this means as a consumer. I've tried to be conscious about jobs here and would prefer to buy American made, but the deck is stacked against me. US companies have lost their ability to compete in global markets. I think the reasons have been covered quite well. I also think that the US consumer isn't going to be persuaded to purchase American made just because it's American. If the price point isn't there, nor the quality, the numbers just won't be great enough to turn the tide. There will have to be an economic reset in this country and the way US companies do business here. I believe this is coming much faster than we realize. That means lower wages, fewer jobs and less profit for share holders. The carcass has been picked clean.

I've done quite well in the stock market over the last 30 years but I think those days are gone. Most of my money is now in cash and secured debt. I see bad things on the horizon.

[RevolverRob]

Then again, how many American products are manufactured by people keeping a wary eye out for the federales?

Dude. Don't go making sense.

Whenever I see someone say they have a manufacturing plant in Eagle Pass, Texas - I know half the people in there aren't legal. For that matter, unless the company has 10 employees, chances are good there are illegals working there. Years ago, my mother worked for a fiber-optic supply company that supplied, among others, Ford, with substantial parts (if you've owned a Ford built between 1998 and 2005 you've owned some of the products this company made). The products were proudly MADE IN THE USA! Right in North Texas. I was a kid and I sometimes wandered the production floor and talked to the workers. The Vietnamese employees in there, all had the same social security number and name...:confused:

In 1998 to stay in business, you had to hire minimum-wage'ish workers and the people willing to do that were illegals.


It has been fairly interesting to watch some of the same people who talked about restaurant workers like the scum of the Earth for daring to seek higher wages suddenly become ultra-concerned about the fate of restaurant workers.

It's the small business disconnect. Employees are scum, but business owners are not. If a business goes out of business, it's a concern, if employees can't better themselves and start their own business they are scum.

It's actually kind of a fucked up version of Marxism if you boil it down. The Proles are ultimately supposed to raise themselves up. They just are supposed to do it individually instead of collectively. If you're a collective, you're a socialist, if you're an individual, you're an 'entrepreneur'.


If folks read the McMaster Atlantic article: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/05/mcmaster-china-strategy/609088/
here's a telling quote:



We will be a vassal state and some folks in the economic elite will profit and that's ok with them. My point, BTW, before.

The cheap goods will keep the peasants in minimal comfort with their low level jobs. John Scalzi (great author) had one of his characters in the the Last Emperox book (about the fall of a space emperor) say: "Civilization was designed to keep the rich as rich as possible and the poor from actively starving so that they wouldn't think to rise up and behead the rich."

Being a vassal to China to enrich some and cheap WalMart goods to placate the less well to do, sounds like that plan to me.

I mean, I read that Glenn, and all I hear is a dude who is just talking like an asshole. It doesn't work quite like he says, but that's not a big surprise. He's more True Believer than actual politician. And he says, hey, "America is here to give us what we need." And when we stranglehold them for critical resources, like raw goods and agricultural goods - they are hurt way more than we are when the latest iPhone is delayed. I'm fine if the Chinese want to think we're a vassal state, the reality is different.


It's not just corporations that are better off because of Chinese manufacturing. It's small business too. Like ShivWorks Products Group.

ShivWorks cutlery is more available and less expensive and overall BETTER than it's ever been because of Chinese manufacturing. Period. You have better quality and we make more money than we ever have because of China.

You want a Clinch Pick less than $100? It's coming from China motherfuckers. OUR Chinese manufacturer is HONORABLE, timely, and easy to do business with. When they fuck up they own it.

I have no problem buying from small (or large) American based companies that use Chinese manufacturing for the most part. The reality is as you say, it helps small business owners here AND it gets the product. We're talking about optics in this thread - If you buy a Holosun-made optic from Primary Arms, yes you're supporting Holosun - but you're also supporting the American 'small' business that is Primary Arms. If I buy a Sig Romeo, I'm buying a Sig Electro-Optic, made in China? Yea. But a German-American business (mostly American these days) that is providing a couple of thousand jobs.


Clinch Picks were out of production for 3 years because of millennial American fucktards that had neither business sense or manufacturing excellence. I'll stick with the Chinese.

Dude, that's because you didn't call this Millennial American Fucktard. If you'd called me, Clinch Picks would still be out of production...


Dude I'll tell you this. I felt like a total un-American sell-out motherfucker when we finally inked our deal with China. After 6 months and a ton of HAPPY customers and more money than we ever made on cutlery? Haven't looked back. That's the reality.

I think you've hit the right balance. We can get China Picks easily and we can order customs from Ban Tang. I'm very okay with this balance and Ban really seems to have the right low-production business model to keep custom Clinch Picks out there.


If we would just go back to letting the illegals slip in (not legalize them, not allow them access to government aid, not allow them to vote, etc. just let them slip in like we used to) then we could have everything manufactured in America, the aspirational class could feel good about themselves, and everything would be hunky dory.

ETA:
option B is to buy robots from China so that we can automate the manufacturing in America. Thereby again assuaging the guilty conscious of the aspirational class yet maintaining the reduced price we’ve all gotten used to (even if we are just financing even those reduced costs at every level from the gov to the manufacturer to the distributor to the retailer to the purchaser and their gold card).


outside of my smart ass response, this is kind of my point.

Everyone has all these theories about what killed american manufacturing (chinese subsidizing their factories, american unions, aliens, democrats, republicans...) but it's really just economics at the consumer level. What really killed American manufacturing was a shit product for more money.

if Americans want other Americans to buy American, then they need to use some of that "american ingenuity" (which is really read "letting new people into the country to innovate after the last batch of immigrants become fat, dumb, lazy, and happy") to produce things either cheaper or of better quality. Outside of a sense of 'Merica is anyone really buying a Cadillac because it's a better value in the luxury market? Fuck no. It's still a GM product for christ's sake (excluding the Corvette, I'd buy a Corvette today based on "value" if I were in that market, which actually makes the Corvette a great case study).

The other thing that kills American manufacturing is this flawed notion that people want "long lasting products". Nobody wants that. Everyone wants new hotness. This is obvious when it comes to electronics, where I'd like a TV that lasts about 3 years at the lowest possible price such that it shits the bed in month 37 "requiring" me to buy a new hotness, that I want anyway because it's bigger/brighter/snazzier/thinner/more connected/whatever.

In tools, I don't *want* a drill that will last a lifetime because there will be a better, stronger, longer lasting, more efficient, lighter, and more feature-packed version in 2-4 years. When that new hotness comes out, I don't want to be sitting on a long-lived old-busted that I can't bring myself to throw away even though the new one is measurably better in every single way, i want the old-busted to be... busted at that time and I want to have paid the lowest possible price because I want to get the advantages of the new hotness.

Even products that should have a long life, many of which fit into our "space" are now disposable because of MOAR New Hotness. Look at the knife threads, PDW thread, PCC threads, Glock Gen(new) threads...(and I'm just as guilty here, to be clear).

The key here is "value".

Rob, I don't always agree with you, but you're spot-fucking-on here. The idea that "American Ingenuity" comes from new immigrant classes is also spot-the-fuck-on. We all know that there are companies here making innovative products, simultaneously, fresh blood and ideas make things better.

__

I've always viewed Xenophobia as one of the few actual existential threats to our country (as much as people want to make it so, neither Communism nor Radicalized Islam are existential threats) When the cultural identity trends too strongly towards Nationalism we end up with a divided state. Classically, since Nationalists are Rightists, they tend to be the most well armed, resulting in a place where strong Nationalistic tendencies produce some evil fucking shit. Xenophobia is the first step towards extreme nationalism and I won't have/tolerate that shit.

To be clear, I'm not defending the Chinese government. They are terrible and clearly exploitative. But I believe the best way to 'defeat' them is to actually use the dollar to allow Chinese citizens the ability to either leave China or establish more powerful standing to oppose the state. The CPC may think they have the state under control, but the amount of hidden/off-shore assets of even the middle-class and the decrease of cultural control in China indicate to the contrary.

When their government doubles down on rhetoric about the US being a vassal state, they are deliberately attempting to stoke US Nationalism, recognizing it creates inner turmoil. We can't let that shit bother us, water off a duck's back. Instead, we just move quietly to make sure our ability to produce critical products in the U.S. exists. And we encourage U.S. manufacturers to explore options in Taiwan, instead of China, by reducing Taiwanese import tariffs.

Unfortunately, we have a POTUS and frankly a whole cabinet with minimal self-control when it comes to being antagonized. They just literally cannot control themselves. You don't beat a school-yard bully by responding to their antagonism. You bide your time and ignore them. When the time is right you bang their lonely mom and make sure that every knows at school you tagged the bully's mom. :eek:

[Borderland]

In 1998 to stay in business, you had to hire minimum-wage'ish workers and the people willing to do that were illegals.

Nothing has changed. A war on immigration is a war on our economy. That will be proven in years to come.

Chinese and Irish immigrants built the first railroads in this country. Those railroads opened the country up to expansion and economic opportunity. Shortly after that Chinese immigration was seen as a bad thing and we got the Chinese Exclusion Acts. It's "Deja Vu All Over Again".

[Half Moon]

H1B visa reform would help with all of the above. Not to mention tariffs and a policy of protectionism. I agree that the answer to America's prosperity is "jobs".

I'm not sure H-1B reform helps much. I agree they need reformed. I've seen companies use H-1B to massively undercut the market rate of various tech jobs. That said tech work is very compatible with telecommute. If a worker located in India can do the job for significantly less and do it remotely no amount of visa reform can block it. At least with a visa some of the money is going back into the US community where they live and work.

And it's not just straight up IT anymore. For instance, my last eye exam (only place I could get same day when my glasses broke) was done with the doctor streaming out of India and remotely operating the exam machine.

[Casual Friday]

53842

[HCM]

Can you expand on that more?

Here is the propaganda version-

Chinese Cops In Italy? Joint Patrols Aim To Ease Chinese Tourists' Jitters

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/05/11/477630160/chinese-cops-in-italy-joint-patrols-aim-to-ease-chinese-tourists-jitters

Here is some of the real back story:

https://bitterwinter.org/la-cina-e-vicina-chinese-police-roaming-the-streets-of-italy/


Officially, Chinese police agents roam the streets of Italian cities to protect tourists from Mainland China,” she told me. “This is an implementation of the memorandum of understanding signed in September 2015 in The Hague, The Netherlands, by the Italian Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Public Security of the People’s Republic of China, at the time when Mr. Matteo Renzi was Prime Minister here in Rome.”

Yes, collaboration between different countries, involving also their police forces, is neither strange nor new. But China is China. Considering its staggering record of systematic and brutal violation of human rights, including illegal actions to silence critics and opposition at home and abroad and sabotage UN activities, and systematic high-tech control and espionage now extending from China to other countries, seeing Chinese policemen walking side by side with Italian law enforcement personnel is shivering. For sure, those who shiver are many Chinese citizens who escaped to Italy to avoid persecution. We know that the CCP is also trying to intimidate and control Chinese exiles abroad, and this is going on even in a theoretically safe country such as the US. In addition, we witness daily what the pro-CCP riot police is doing to people in Hong Kong, militarizing ordinary life in a police state that seems to come directly out of The Dark Knight Rises, the 2010 movie directed by Chistopher Nolan, a superb metaphor of how totalitarian powers behave since the French Revolution (1789-1799). Who could then excuse and justify the CCP, and thus regard as normal that its police walk the streets of a peculiar but undoubtedly democratic country like Italy?

Italy has both large numbers of Chinese tourists and a large Chinese expat community, many of whom are illegal aliens in Italy working in the garment business. There are a fair number of Chinese dissidents and asylum seekers as well.

The CCP has active efforts to intimidate and control Chinese expats and asylum seekers in many countries including Canada and the U.S. In some places they are just more overt than in others.

[inkslinger]

How about -- if a company moves one job outside the USA, sources cheap parts outside the USA, or imports workers because bean counters don't want to pay living wages in the USA, That company does not sell products to the American market. Shut them out of the market entirely.

Higher worker wages, management and especially upper management earning less where a middle class family can be supported by one working spouse/parent can indeed be accomplished but not as long as poverty ridden semi slave labor is available. That limits choices, but to have it be worth cure -- to restructure and to produce and manufacture the best in the world and have a strong middle class with purchasing power to buy to buy those products, there would be pain involved in the treatment for the economic disease.

Whether that would actually be a viable option is less important than the fact very few are willing to do *anything* if it means pain in the process. We'll get lip service but little else.

So basically convert from capitalism to communism. The solution to being less dependent on China isn’t to be more like China.

[critter]

So basically convert from capitalism to communism. The solution to being less dependent on China isn’t to be more like China.

Communism? uh... I don't think you understand what that actually is.

More like convert from plutocracy, corporate cronyism and labor exploitation of poverty ridden areas in the world to capitalism and America first protectionism. No one has the "right" to manufacture outside of the USA and sell back to the USA. No visa workers have a "right" to work here.

[mtnbkr]

The other thing that kills American manufacturing is this flawed notion that people want "long lasting products". Nobody wants that. Everyone wants new hotness. This is obvious when it comes to electronics, where I'd like a TV that lasts about 3 years at the lowest possible price such that it shits the bed in month 37 "requiring" me to buy a new hotness, that I want anyway because it's bigger/brighter/snazzier/thinner/more connected/whatever.

In tools, I don't *want* a drill that will last a lifetime because there will be a better, stronger, longer lasting, more efficient, lighter, and more feature-packed version in 2-4 years. When that new hotness comes out, I don't want to be sitting on a long-lived old-busted that I can't bring myself to throw away even though the new one is measurably better in every single way, i want the old-busted to be... busted at that time and I want to have paid the lowest possible price because I want to get the advantages of the new hotness.

Even products that should have a long life, many of which fit into our "space" are now disposable because of MOAR New Hotness. Look at the knife threads, PDW thread, PCC threads, Glock Gen(new) threads...(and I'm just as guilty here, to be clear).

The key here is "value".

Yup. I have a 12yo 40" 720p LCD TV I can't bear to part with because it works. Even though it is several generations old, is a relative power-hog, and is bigger and heavier than it needs to be (can fit a modern 45"-50" screen in the same space), I can't get rid of it because it works, has no resale value, and I would feel guilty for disposing of a working TV. However, if it would just die, I wouldn't feel bad and could go out and buy a much better one for a fraction of the price.

I was in the same boat with a 10yo LCD computer monitor, but it up and died yesterday without warning. I was able to get a better replacement for less money than I spent on the original. I'm not unhappy about that. Also, I wasn't going to replace a working monitor, but since it died...

Chris

[RevolverRob]

53842

Or just call Primary Arms, Vortex, or Sig and send it back to them?

It's like the best of both worlds, cheap optics, and stateside customer service.

___

Why would I want to deal with a Swede when my Aimpoint breaks? Have you worked with Swedes before? They make Germans look like flexible party-goers.

___

I'm of course only slightly joking. I don't see much wrong with budget optics from U.S. based companies in this regard. I'm not buying Holosuns from Holosun.

And if Leupold would release a micro tube dot optic - I'd buy that instead. But I'd bet it would only be "Assembled in the US" - since to keep costs down to a reasonable number they would have to use Chinese electronics...

[HCM]

Dude. Don't go making sense.

Whenever I see someone say they have a manufacturing plant in Eagle Pass, Texas - I know half the people in there aren't legal. For that matter, unless the company has 10 employees, chances are good there are illegals working there. Years ago, my mother worked for a fiber-optic supply company that supplied, among others, Ford, with substantial parts (if you've owned a Ford built between 1998 and 2005 you've owned some of the products this company made). The products were proudly MADE IN THE USA! Right in North Texas. I was a kid and I sometimes wandered the production floor and talked to the workers. The Vietnamese employees in there, all had the same social security number and name...:confused:

In 1998 to stay in business, you had to hire minimum-wage'ish workers and the people willing to do that were illegals.


When ever I see someone say they have a manufacturing plant in Eagle Pass, TX I know they are actually manufacturing their product in a maquiladora in Piedras Negras, Coahuila and EGP is just final assembly or a shipping warehouse.

On another note, in 25 years of dealing with foreign nationals I’ve never encountered a Vietnamese illegal alien. Lots of Vietnamese refugees, including many gang members and criminals who ran afoul of the law, but none who entered the U.S. illegally.

It’s ironic to see someone complain about xenophobia and then conflate legal immigrants with illegal immigrants.

Plenty of legal immigrants work jobs no one else wants when the first arrive due to language and cultural barriers. Even legal immigrants can have or create issues such as the H1B abuse referenced earlier.

Immigrant labor working cheap, both legal and illegal has been around a long time, as have efforts to control it. The Chinese exclusion act of 1882 being exhibit A. The thriving Chinatown which still exists to this day in Mexicali, Baja California, MX, established as a base to smuggle Chinese into the U.S. being exhibit B.

[HCM]

Speaking of Maquiladoras, even if off shoring is inevitable in the modern world, who says it has to be done in China?

I would much rather buy something made in Mexico, Brazil or India or a whole host of other places than Communist China.

[Casual Friday]

Or just call Primary Arms, Vortex, or Sig and send it back to them?

It's like the best of both worlds, cheap optics, and stateside customer service.

___

Why would I want to deal with a Swede when my Aimpoint breaks? Have you worked with Swedes before? They make Germans look like flexible party-goers.

___

I'm of course only slightly joking. I don't see much wrong with budget optics from U.S. based companies in this regard. I'm not buying Holosuns from Holosun.

And if Leupold would release a micro tube dot optic - I'd buy that instead. But I'd bet it would only be "Assembled in the US" - since to keep costs down to a reasonable number they would have to use Chinese electronics...

It's a meme dude. When I called Aimpoint a while back to run a serial number by them to verify it was legit it was a VA number and no Swedes answered the phone.

As far as Leupold red dots go....


https://youtu.be/_DkALBk7bd8


https://youtu.be/m5timDnYzQw

[UNK]

Speaking of Maquiladoras, even if off shoring is inevitable in the modern world, who says it has to be done in China?

I would much rather buy something made in Mexico, Brazil or India or a whole host of other places than Communist China.

Ive always said in the countries of true allies.

[RoyGBiv]

FWIW... The garment business that we gave up to China is now being outsourced to Vietnam. Between high tariffs on China goods and rising cost of labor in China, factories are relocating in droves.

[SouthNarc]

Originally posted by RevolverRob

Dude, that's because you didn't call this Millennial American Fucktard. If you'd called me, Clinch Picks would still be out of production...



Dude you made me blow gin out of my nose!

[Welder]

We'll never come close to a country where people getting hammered to death on machine presses is a normal daily occurrence that is just a part of life.

That's a really interesting quote and very personal for me because of the type of work I do. I might ramble some here, skip it if you want.

At some point in time (you history nuts can probably define it, and it probably has to with lawyers LOL), life became valuable here, at least to the larger corporations. It used to be a somewhat normal occurrence for workers to be killed; still is in some industries but it's far more unusual now. On the farm I grew up on, we were as safe as we knew how to be, but looking back on it, we still did some really dumb stuff. Brother, I have had some CLOSE calls.

Our farm used to host annual farm safety events for the local Farm Bureau, and I particularly remember the pictures and movies of the remains of what people looked like when farm equipment got done with them. PTO shafts used to grab and kill people who stepped over them while they were running all of the time. Now those shafts are guarded, by law. Old farmers still pull the guards off. Look at the annoying safety interlocks on lawn mowers; heck, I've disabled 2 on mine and still have a 3rd that needs to be bypassed. Because I'm willing to accept the risk back on myself in exchange for losing the inconvenience that it causes.

I spent some years working in a multi-layered company doing all sorts of mainly blue-collar work, but a little brain work also. One of our jobs was to go in and retrofit an old rebar factory a couple hours south of here. It was still outfitted with mechanical shears, which are huge machines that weigh thousands of pounds each. Basically the electric motor spins this heavy flywheel and the machine runs constantly. When you hit the "cut" switch, this large jaw with a shear blade on it would be tripped by an air switch and it would fly downwards under flywheel power, slamming into all of these bars that were laying across it and cutting them instantly. Imagine a pair of heavy scissors with 11 pipe cleaners laying in the jaws, and now imagine that the bottom blade is stationary and the top blade moves at the speed of light, and now imagine that the pipe cleaners are each solid steel an inch in diameter and that the blades are a couple feet long and you've got the idea.

Anyway, those machines were FAST but they were sooooo dangerous. Lots of guys got maimed or killed by them. They tried incorporating dual activate switches so that both of your hands had to be on them when the cut happened, but people would bypass them and keep losing hands. They were also commonly used for committing suicide, and at least one of them in that shop had been used for it. I've never seen rebar cut faster than by those old machines. We replaced them with multi-million dollars' worth of hydraulic shear lines, which were safer but are so slow in comparison. It was a safety thing.

My point is that there was a time, not so long ago, when a little loss of life was just the cost of doing business. Or a little pollution. Or a little....whatever. (I'm being facetious -- in many cases it was "a lot.") As we move towards 100% worker safety and 100% sustainability our costs increase exponentially. One of my friends works at a local factory that requires anyone more than 4' above the ground to tie off. And 3 people to be present if a stepladder is to be used. We all roll our eyes at stuff like this, and yet somewhere, sometime, those rules will probably save a life. Maybe only one life, but it's a life. On the flip side of that, the rest of the world doesn't attach the same value to a life.

I've known several people who've been killed just out doing their everyday work. Not LEO or military. I didn't ever see it happen, but I did get there soon enough to see the blood all over everything. Most recently, it was my uncle who went into what was basically a confined-space situation when he shouldn't have. But he was a farmer and he'd never even heard of the concept of confined space. So he went in, created a pressure vessel by accident, and a bulkhead caved his forehead in. I was 2 hours away working on a big welding job when I got the call. You know what? I'd gone through the annoying confined space training years ago in an industrial setting, and everything that my uncle had done was both predictable and preventable. And because of that training, I'd have never put myself in the same situation that he did. On the day of his death, that long-ago annoying training that required us to have so much extra labor and spend so much extra time to get a simple job done... all of the sudden it made sense.

I'd submit that at least some portion of what makes us uncompetitive with the cheap labor markets is this value that we attach to a worker's life and health. Whether we're talking air quality, safety interlocks, rubber pads to stand on, working hour limitations, safety meetings, extra labor on work crews, etc. Of course management still does everything they can to shortcut these unprofitable expenses, but their hands are often tied by an empowered safety division and by gov't entities such as OSHA and MSHA who encourage whistleblowing.

The U.S. and lesser-"enlightened" countries are not playing the same game. We're constantly dealing with players who are decades behind us, not in innovation, but in cold, hard economic efficiency. In other words, we are less single-minded than we once were. Our considerations go outside of profit to include environmental and personal impacts caused by our business. We think of sustainability. These things have value to us that go beyond the dollar. When I talk about canoeing on the Shenandoah, I still am not allowed to eat very much fish from there because of the runoff from a pharmaceutical factory upstream...but it's improving. I can see the bottom. I can eat *some* fish. (I actually hate fish, so not really my point) There isn't as much smog coming across from the OH River Valley as there was when I was a kid. The Chesapeake Bay water quality is improving drastically. These are real benefits, but we have paid for them collectively and literally.

I have more thoughts but I'll stop. I have to go work on my motorcycle now. :)

[Joe in PNG]

A lot of previous posters have pointed out a few reasons the USA is getting away from production: more safety & environmental concerns, higher cost of living, less interest in repetitive assembly line jobs, and so on. All of which increase the cost of labor and make offshoring more attractive.

However, the nations that get the offshore manufacturing will eventually find themselves subject to the same kind of growth, and the same cost. Manufacturing is a great step up from subsistence farming, but it's probably not something you want your kids doing. Eventually, the cost of labor increases to the point where it's about on par with the rest of the industrialized world. Like Japan in the 80's, China is not far from that point.

[peterb]

Did anyone here see "American Factory"?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidalm/2019/08/12/american-factory-shows-what-happens-when-one-multibillion-dollar-chinese-company-opens-shop-in-an-ohio-town/#e73b55c4863c

[Caballoflaco]

Man, sometimes I look back on life and miss when this thread was about yelling and being confused....

Now it’s actual people with experience in manufacturing both here and working with the Chinese sharing their personal experiences and interesting information and issues being discussed.

[Joe in PNG]

Agreed. Trade and travel will be key to unraveling government control. However....
It's quite difficult to get exit visas for your whole family to travel abroad simultaneously.
Exit visa? Yes, exit requires permission.
Read between the lines re incentives, controls and motivations.

Historically, embedded foreign nationals as 5th columnist usually works only in fiction or propaganda.

And that propaganda is usually something to the effect that all those damn furriners need to be locked up or expelled.

But, even though many of the Germans, Japanese, Italians, and so on in various Allied nations had families back in the Axis countries, the Axis intel agencies weren't able to make much use of them.

[RevolverRob]

It’s ironic to see someone complain about xenophobia and then conflate legal immigrants with illegal immigrants.

Or maybe they were illegal immigrants - as in people who were illegally within the borders of the United States? Simply because you have never interacted with an Vietnamese foreign national who was in the U.S. illegally doesn't make it such that they don't exist (they do). And I've had plenty of experience with them.

On another note - This is the third time in four days, where you have attempted to "correct" me about something within my direct knowledge and/or history. And this is the third time in four days, you've written that 'correction' in your same snide back-handed tone. As a result, rather than continue to address you, I'm putting you on ignore, because it's become tiresome to be 'corrected' by someone about my own personal history in life.

You mark just the second site supporter on my list, congratulations.

[TGS]

That's a really interesting quote and very personal for me because of the type of work I do. I might ramble some here, skip it if you want.

Definitely appreciate the perspective, and I can relate a little because my wife is an OSHA inspector. She sees all sorts of nasty injuries and deaths, most preventable.

What she's seeing a lot of right now is every swingin' dick in private sector management trying to take advantage of the leeway being given to companies during Covid. Instead of making "good faith" efforts to comply and ensure workers' safety, there's a bunch of places she's investigating that are going the complete opposite direction and proving that OSHA is essential for workers' safety.

[hiro]

What she's seeing a lot of right now is every swingin' dick in private sector management trying to take advantage of the leeway being given to companies during Covid. Instead of making "good faith" efforts to comply and ensure workers' safety, there's a bunch of places she's investigating that are going the complete opposite direction and proving that OSHA is essential for workers' safety.

And still we hold the Chinese in contempt for their practices. Sure, they leave a lot of room for improvement but people that live in glass houses...

and never, ever say Sig and ethical practice in the same paragraph round here.

:confused:

[UNK]

Manufacturing offers an opportunity to those who havent completed school beyond high school. At least decent pay plus benefits. Opportunity for advancement, continuing education and retirement. Not to mention the support needed to operate the facility which is at least trade school up to degreed individuals. Its a straight up win for everybody involved.
Beats the hell out of retail or food services or a bunch of other jobs.

[Joe in PNG]

Manufacturing offers an opportunity to those who havent completed school beyond high school. At least decent pay plus benefits. Opportunity for advancement, continuing education and retirement. Not to mention the support needed to operate the facility which is at least trade school up to degreed individuals. Its a straight up win for everybody involved.
Beats the hell out of retail or food services or a bunch of other jobs.

Agreed- but there's this belief that manufacturing, and any skill trades, are somehow inferior jobs- menial, undignified and demeaning. A lot of what I heard during my school days shaded towards the idea that manual labor was for the losers and failures and those not smart enough to get a degree. Obviously, my cohort and I would all be heading to college, least we be one of... those kind.

It's just another factor to consider why we're no longer really in the manufacturing business- our education establishment has instilled a loathing and disgust of the whole enterprise.

[RevolverRob]

I’d take it a step out from education and simply say our culture as embraced the idea that “work” is done by the uneducated.

I know people who, if they met SouthNarc or misanthropist in person would absolutely find them to be charming, worldly people. And those same folks would be appalled at the idea that they enjoyed the company of people who are “uneducated” and who make a living getting their hands dirty at some point.

This cultural phenomena is pretty deeply engrained. And it’s partly the basis for some of the discrimination I have encountered in my academic career, “You’re...older...for a student Rob. What happened?” “Uhh..I worked a job?” “And you’re first generation...tsk...well that explains it.”

For sure not everyone or even most are like that, but those who are, have successfully cemented power in their spheres and they don’t take kindly to new folks.

This seems a bit rambling let me tie it back in to the idea of manufacturing in the US. At it’s core, we should value upward trajectory and growth in careers, but in fact management and particularly upper management often loathes the self-made individual. They threaten them with their work ethics AND humility. As a result, I’ve seen time and time again where obstacles are put in the path to force the “dirty and dumb” to stay at their menial station in life. To feel better management talks of raising minimum wage and offering free college, “If someone only gave an opportunity to these poor wretches...” But when push comes to shove, they either won’t do it or won’t advertise it to allow people to grow. Because growth isn’t really intended.

[Welder]

It's just another factor to consider why we're no longer really in the manufacturing business- our education establishment has instilled a loathing and disgust of the whole enterprise.

That's really quite true. I've never worked on a production line (thank the Good Lord), but a lot of my work is in industrial settings so I'm around the lines a fair amount. To be honest, I'd never want to work on a line. I'm not too good for it, but often a line worker is nothing more than a robot that can do more complex tasks than we've yet designed mechanical replacements for. They're under strict scheduling and have little-to-no leeway in making on-the-fly decisions. That's what all the different layers of factory floor management are for. They drive a forklift from A to B to C to D, then maybe back to A. They get component X and Y put together, 1000x a day.

There's nothing glorious about it, for sure. I even understand why there are so many drug problems in that type of a setting; who else wants to work like that? You're almost subhuman. Yes, there are opportunities for advancement, sometimes....but the line worker is the lowest of the low and there's often a reason that someone is 'only' a line worker. Somebody is getting paid $100k to be the brain, and there are a bunch of guys working 2nd and 3rd shift getting paid $20k to do the work, specifically without thinking.

I graduated from college in December '99, last class of the last millennium. I was raised to be proud of the work that you did with your own 2 hands, and although it was never spoken aloud, some sense of looking down on people who sat behind a desk was instilled at the same time. Kinda the opposite of what is seen from acadamia's standpoint. In retrospect, this did a lot of damage to me. I was offered, and turned down flat, an opportunity to go to work for the USDA in DC. My grades were among the best in the school and the Dean of my little major was on a mission to put me somewhere important. But noooooo...people who worked behind desks were sissies, cubicle workers who never got outside or did anything worth doing. So what did my brilliant self do? Go to work as a mechanic at a Dodge dealership. With a Bachelor's in Ag Econ with the silly whatever-cum-laude sash and everything. And today I run a small business that's somewhat successful but hard on my body.

I've tried and failed to get a job at the aforementioned pharmaceutical factory, in positions that I know I'm intellectually qualified for. and would pay the same or better than I can make on my own while reducing the physical and financial risks that are part of my current occupation. But this last 20 years of having to prove myself *to myself* has created someone with a job resume which gets round-filed by the corporate recruiters over there. So our problems as a country relative to manufacturing, the trades, and the white collar jobs are complex and not easily solvable. Each side looks at the other, however silly it may be, as 'less than' themselves. There's something about tribalness that's ingrained into each of us so far that I think very few are ever able to step outside of it and truly see that we're brothers. Sure, it's popular to virtue-signal these days, but it's still only skin deep and I believe I liked things better without this current veneer covering dishonesty and condescension. I'm not convinced it's evolving us in a positive way.

What I believe this country needs is a sense of a common goal. And people who are moderates who will stand up and shout down the fringe elements *on both sides.* Yes. On the right too. I'm definitely a moderate myself, and the problem with moderates is that we don't get too worked up about things that we know we can't change. Also, we see both sides of an issue and understand that a lot of the world and life is truly a gray area. You'll never convince me that there are more genders than male and female, for example, but you also won't get me interested in going and protesting about it. I feel like the vast majority of people just want to live and be left alone, and to stop being pushed out of their comfort zone. I don't talk politics much; I do my duty to vote and then that's it....I have a life to live and business to run, and I don't have time to bellyache about things I can't change. But what I am starting to get tired of is the extremism. It's gotten more of a foothold with the internet and the concept that everyone's voice is equal.

OK, so that's totally a ramble. I hope something was worth reading.

[peterb]

Agreed- but there's this belief that manufacturing, and any skill trades, are somehow inferior jobs- menial, undignified and demeaning. A lot of what I heard during my school days shaded towards the idea that manual labor was for the losers and failures and those not smart enough to get a degree. Obviously, my cohort and I would all be heading to college, least we be one of... those kind.

My “lightbulb moment” was many years ago while helping a friend disassemble a barn. The hired crane operator could drop the hook gently into my outstretched hand when I had a sling ready. I realized that he was probably more skilled at his job than a lot of white-collar workers were at theirs.

My company participates in a STEM internship program for local high school students. A lot of people still seem to think that “manufacturing” means working in some noisy sooty sweatshop like a Victorian boiler factory. They don’t have a clue about cleanrooms and CNCs and what modern manufacturing can be.

The skilled trades offer an opportunity for better salaries than a lot of low-level white-collar jobs, but nobody seems to know that.

A lot of kids being forced into the 4-year college pipeline would be happier with a technical degree and a job making real things.

One of the reasons Germany maintains its manufacturing base is the strong apprenticeship programs. Students can work while going to school and come out of the programs with certification that means something to potential employers.

I’ve done entry-level assembly-line work, and no, I wouldn’t want to do that for a lifetime. But it’s always a better day when I can get up from my desk and go into the lab or shop and build stuff.

I do understand some of the disdain for manufacturing. My grandfather was a bricklayer, and for him and many of his generation it was a sign of success if you had a job that did not require physical labor or getting your hands dirty. He was proud of his own work but did not want my father to work a trade or a factory job.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I’d take it a step out from education and simply say our culture as embraced the idea that “work” is done by the uneducated.

I know people who, if they met SouthNarc or misanthropist in person would absolutely find them to be charming, worldly people. And those same folks would be appalled at the idea that they enjoyed the company of people who are “uneducated” and who make a living getting their hands dirty at some point.

This cultural phenomena is pretty deeply engrained. And it’s partly the basis for some of the discrimination I have encountered in my academic career, “You’re...older...for a student Rob. What happened?” “Uhh..I worked a job?” “And you’re first generation...tsk...well that explains it.”

For sure not everyone or even most are like that, but those who are, have successfully cemented power in their spheres and they don’t take kindly to new folks.

This seems a bit rambling let me tie it back in to the idea of manufacturing in the US. At it’s core, we should value upward trajectory and growth in careers, but in fact management and particularly upper management often loathes the self-made individual. They threaten them with their work ethics AND humility. As a result, I’ve seen time and time again where obstacles are put in the path to force the “dirty and dumb” to stay at their menial station in life. To feel better management talks of raising minimum wage and offering free college, “If someone only gave an opportunity to these poor wretches...” But when push comes to shove, they either won’t do it or won’t advertise it to allow people to grow. Because growth isn’t really intended.

Jeez, I realize I went to university in Frenchville but I think it technically still counts as being educated.

[blues]

Jeez, I realize I went to university in Frenchville but I think it technically still counts as being educated.

Game on!!!

[RevolverRob]

Jeez, I realize I went to university in Frenchville but I think it technically still counts as being educated.

No Ivy - no county.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

No Ivy - no county.

Oh, we have only two of those up here by most counts... one in Toronto, and one conveniently located (for some at least) in Montreal, Quebec.

[Borderland]

Jeez, I realize I went to university in Frenchville but I think it technically still counts as being educated.

We Americans assign the value of an education by the cost. If a person in Canada pays 10K a year to go to University and an American pays 50K a year we've received a far better education. It really doesn't matter the education you actually acquired. What matters is how much you (or someone else) paid for it. We do that with a lot of things. It helps us with our social value system except when we elect politicians. :D

[Maple Syrup Actual]

That attitude exists mostly in eastern Canada here... which is why our two "Ivy League" schools are there. You can get equal or better education elsewhere and in the west that's mostly seen as stupid; there is a much more common attitude of "what can you do for me right now" in the west. Universities with a lot of current, relevant work in the field are seen as valuable; others are not so much.

But if you want to go work in the federal government, say, you have to have come from one of the two. Or maybe it's more fair to say "it's a big advantage."

Anyway thankfully that attitude pretty much stops when you get to the private sector because people just want results. I think the only people I know who find the question of "which university" important are still in university themselves.

[RevolverRob]

Oh, we have only two of those up here by most counts... one in Toronto, and one conveniently located (for some at least) in Montreal, Quebec.

Oh Canada...with your two Ivy schools. To be fair, the U.S. has become so elitest we now have "Ivy League" and "Ivy Plus" - you know for those who can't afford an Ivy, but want something close.

:rolleyes:

Actually, believe it or not (though I'm sure you're likely to know this) - the people I know who would be aghast at their hypothetical fraternization with you are aghast, because you've made your living doing icky things...like building with your hands. How droll.

I say that, because when people find out my family was in the construction business, almost to a T, they start yammering on inanely about how, "Great it is that someone can come from that background and do okay." - The okay part is that I chose an academic career path. If I'd chosen anything but...I'd be droll. :rolleyes:

Anyways, the point that the cultural value of "education" and "white collar" work has served to undermine "blue collar" is made.

Someone mentioned the Chinese government basically subsidizing business in their country to outbid other countries. One thing I keep coming back to is this problem that has been exposed by Covid - that is that there is some level of base manufacturing needs that cannot be met inside the U.S. - I'd love to see some subsidy and tax breaks for critical goods manufacture come out of this. And I'd like to see some targeted work to not give those dollars to people like Pfizer, but rather to smaller companies wherever possible.

I really have no problem with Congress proposing a budgetary package that includes subsidy for these critical goods, nor am I opposed to a Berry Amendment-like approach to making sure we're getting them. I view it really as an actual National Security issue.

[hiro]

Someone mentioned the Chinese government basically subsidizing business in their country to outbid other countries. One thing I keep coming back to is this problem that has been exposed by Covid - that is that there is some level of base manufacturing needs that cannot be met inside the U.S. - I'd love to see some subsidy and tax breaks for critical goods manufacture come out of this.

I can't understand why this wasn't the case in the first place. If it's not the role of Federal government to oversee an emergency that crosses state lines, whose is it?


And I'd like to see some targeted work to not give those dollars to people like Pfizer, but rather to smaller companies wherever possible.

Trouble with dealing with multiple smaller companies to make up a large order is dealing with multiple companies. Is there a case for a Lake City equivalent? Hopefully someone will point out the deficiencies in my understanding of LC but isn't the idea the same? Kept on line by the US government to be there when it's needed, maintain the capacity planned for times of crisis and in the mean time, make plenty of stuff and store it, sell the excess.

[RevolverRob]

I can't understand why this wasn't the case in the first place. If it's not the role of Federal government to oversee an emergency that crosses state lines, whose is it?

A compelling question, right?

I was reading an article the other day that elucidated some of the history of the Fed's management and development plan for critical infrastructure and running the country during times of crisis. I was a bit surprised to learn that FEMA didn't exist until Jimmy Carter. And that while there are solid plans in place today for emergency running of the government there weren't even 45 years ago. So, I suppose it doesn't surprise me that the Fed doesn't necessarily have a bunch of contingency plans in place.

And I'll cut a bit of slack here in the sense that covid-19 is easily the most serious pandemic threat the U.S. has faced in more than a century. So, what I'm hoping for is we learn something and make some good plans and progress to prevent certain things from effecting us again. I'm hoping that since I can kind of see the writing on the wall, that the people who are smarter than me about this are also seeing it and adjusting accordingly.

[SafetyFirst]

This badge was not cheap. I try to buy made in the USA products when possible. It gets expensive quickly.

[peterb]

Oh Canada...with your two Ivy schools. To be fair, the U.S. has become so elitest we now have "Ivy League" and "Ivy Plus" - you know for those who can't afford an Ivy, but want something close.

You may have it backwards. The big-name schools often have the most generous aid packages, and the cost to attend can be less than at a school with a lower sticker price.

[Cyberpunk1981]

Agreed- but there's this belief that manufacturing, and any skill trades, are somehow inferior jobs- menial, undignified and demeaning. A lot of what I heard during my school days shaded towards the idea that manual labor was for the losers and failures and those not smart enough to get a degree. Obviously, my cohort and I would all be heading to college, least we be one of... those kind.

It's just another factor to consider why we're no longer really in the manufacturing business- our education establishment has instilled a loathing and disgust of the whole enterprise.

I would argue that this belief is reinforced by the fact that these jobs are not paid as well as office jobs or other jobs. Even retail and food service jobs are not beneath anyone. The idea of some jobs being for high schoolers has gone out the window in the modern economy.

I would argue that the fact many of these jobs are no longer unionized and have seen their wages go down is why these jobs are not pushed in our educational establishments. My best example is trucking and how far the pay has fallen with regards to the pay they used to make versus now. When I tried getting into it I was offered around $0.44 a mile for Schneider, which is a large company that is often used as a place to start a trucking career and get your foot in the door as well as learn the trade. Its a huge lifestyle change and it wasn't for me, especially at the pay they were offering. I would have made around $40,000 a year or so but I would be gone most of the time and working most days.

In my own family I have seen the effects of trades and what you are exchanging for the higher pay. My father was an operating engineer in a union and was forced to retire a year ago due to an on the job injury. The fact is that wages have gone down in these industries and people are no longer looking at them as being a worthwhile pursuit because of the fact they will destroy your body. I had a friend who was an electrician and at the age of 33 his body was nearly broken by injuries and other issues. He made good money but if you can't enjoy it, what is the point? I have friends who are in programming and sit on their behinds in an office making six figures and they are treated very well by their employers. It makes more sense to me to get a 4 year degree and become a coder or work in IT than it does to pursue a career as a plumber. Sure you can potentially make the same amount of money as a plumber, but you won't necessarily have to destroy your body in order to do so. You will probably have to work a lot of hours writing code but you will do the same as a plumber. There is a reason schools push higher education over trades and manufacturing because usually they pay better.

[rob_s]

You may have it backwards. The big-name schools often have the most generous aid packages, and the cost to attend can be less than at a school with a lower sticker price.

Assuming you have the grades, test scores, or ethnicity to qualify.

[RevolverRob]

You may have it backwards. The big-name schools often have the most generous aid packages, and the cost to attend can be less than at a school with a lower sticker price.

This is true. But attending an Ivy does not convey the total benefits of that institution. A real challenge for “first generation” students is that their parents typically do not have the networking knowledge and knowledge of upper crust etiquette to prepare their kids to take advantage of an Ivy.

Then we have the whole separate issue of Ivy-League grade inflation. It is very difficult, for instance, to flunk out of Brown, because they don’t give Fs. They give failing students “incompletes” that allow them more time to make the grade. Something that does not occur regularly at a state school.

This is all predicated on the idea that there is value in higher education, and in particular Ivy education, for the average person. I actually remain unconvinced of this, as someone who works in higher ed. In my experience those who are most successful in life post-college had a distinct plan going in. Those folks are typically older with more life experience, though some are those kids who knew from age 5 they wanted to do X.



Assuming you have the grades, test scores, or ethnicity to qualify.

Mostly grades and family income level. Many Ivies are adopting a “no test” or “low test” threshold since it has become clear SAT/ACT aren’t great indicators of long-term success. Ethnicity certainly plays a role, education level of parents is a big one. First generation, low income, minorities are like crack to Ivy admission officers.

[peterb]

This is true. But attending an Ivy does not convey the total benefits of that institution. A real challenge for “first generation” students is that their parents typically do not have the networking knowledge and knowledge of upper crust etiquette to prepare their kids to take advantage of an Ivy.

This is all predicated on the idea that there is value in higher education, and in particular Ivy education, for the average person. I actually remain unconvinced of this, as someone who works in higher ed. In my experience those who are most successful in life post-college had a distinct plan going in. Those folks are typically older with more life experience, though some are those kids who knew from age 5 they wanted to do X.


True. Like any school, what you get out of it depends on what you put in. If you’re just going to show up and do the minimum there’s no real benefit. But if you’re prepared to take advantage of the opportunities, the resources at high-end schools can be amazing.

It’s complicated. I know nice, hardworking kids who were reluctant to say they went to an Ivy because they knew people would assume they were rich snobs.

[SouthNarc]

Jeez, I realize I went to university in Frenchville but I think it technically still counts as being educated.

And my BA is from University of South Alabama so about the same. :D

[RevolverRob]

And my BA is from University of South Alabama so about the same. :D

I applied to a job at the University of Southern Mississippi and another at Alabama A&M. Much to the abject horror of one of my colleagues, “You would move to Mississippi?”

“In a heartbeat.”

“Why? I see you at a place like Harvard.”

“You don’t know me very well then.”

—
I really wanted that job at Alabama A&M though - right there in Huntsville, just big enough, but small enough. Plenty of private industry for the wife, easy to find land and commute, minimal traffic. Would have been awesome.

[SouthNarc]

I applied to a job at the University of Southern Mississippi and another at Alabama A&M. Much to the abject horror of one of my colleagues, “You would move to Mississippi?”

“In a heartbeat.”

“Why? I see you at a place like Harvard.”

“You don’t know me very well then.”

—
I really wanted that job at Alabama A&M though - right there in Huntsville, just big enough, but small enough. Plenty of private industry for the wife, easy to find land and commute, minimal traffic. Would have been awesome.


Yeah man I think Huntsville has as many Ph.Ds per square mile as Los Alamos.

[blues]

I have never seen evidence of a more intelligent student body at Ivy League schools compared to state university back during the period I attended in the early 70's. In fact, I was surprised at how poorly educated many of the Harvard students were when I went up there to visit a friend during that same period. (Though I always had a soft spot for Brown.)

They may have more resources and the old boy network, but for pure intellectual horsepower, I saw nothing to wow me.

That said, I know things have changed a great deal in the near half century since I started my freshman year in college, and even then it was beginning to be dumbed down by asses in seats that had no business being there for one reason or another.

But to get into a good State U. back then, you'd better have had excellent SATs and other things to point to on our app...unless you could check off a few boxes that gave you priority.

[Matt O]

Assuming you have the grades, test scores, or ethnicity to qualify.

I had originally thought to outwit the system when I listed my (bi-racial) children as Asian on their social security forms. :(

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's funny, the SATs and the like were developed to break prejudicial decisions. Now they are seen as prejudicial when the real issue is the failure of K-12 education to make all kids competitive due to a variety of social circumstances.

Many schools started the 'entire' social package admissions evaluation to come up with criteria to turn back the waves of Asian and Jewish students that would take up a disproportionate slice of the new class. So Chad and Karen can go to Africa in the summer and work with the poor people there. The daughter of the Japanese restaurant owner in Portland, OR can't (friends of ours - she got in by hard work and scores - became the best freshperson of her MIT class).

For me, it was the SATs that got me into an excellent commuter school in NYC that took in very high scoring kids and gave me an inexpensive but quality education.

I've seen kids who were technically 'illegals' who were as smart as anybody and kids of the well to do who were as less gifted as any.

Money and connections wins the day, unless you are too stupid to do it well - like them movie picture stars, going to jail

I always got a kick out of folks who would parade their ivy credentials. Had a guy who wore his Harvard sweater around campus. Well, dumb ass - how come you are here, next to my SUNY Buffalo T-shirt (or even my Rangemaster t-shirt in the gym)?

[LittleLebowski]

It's funny, the SATs and the like were developed to break prejudicial decisions. Now they are seen as prejudicial when the real issue is the failure of K-12 education to make all kids competitive due to a variety of social circumstances.


The real failure is parenting and no amount of money and affirmative action thrown at schools will fix fatherless families.

[blues]

The real failure is parenting and no amount of money and affirmative action thrown at schools will fix fatherless families.

It's more than just that. School athletics, as much as I enjoy sports, allowed many seats to be taken up by dolts who could barely read. (And this is not a race related observation, there were as many white kids fitting this pigeonhole as any other race or ethnicity.)

It was almost offensive to sit in a classroom with someone that had not only no interest in the subject matter, but none of the hardware or mental software required to even comprehend it.

I was admittedly a somewhat idealistic kid...and when I received offers and scholarships to schools...I thought I'd be embarking on an intellectual journey akin to sitting at a Parisian cafe with Sartre, Camus and de Beauvoir. What I got was something quite a bit different.

I think being an autodidact is the best way to ensure a well rounded education. If you don't want to learn...you won't. Not everybody "needs" to go to college.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

To LL: There is some truth to that. However, to return to our current debate, it is argued that the loss of jobs destroyed the family structure. The theory goes like this (I didn't make it up, so if folks don't like it - sorry).

1. Women have a tendency to want kids (as males have a tendency to want to produce them).
2. Women want to have males that will be economic contributors to the raising of the child as well as providing safety.
3. With good jobs, most men will do that.
4. With lack of a good job, the male:
a. can become an economic burden as the female may need to support him
b. can become socially disruptive without the structure of good employment
c. won't feel bonded to female and wander off to other females.
5. The instability of the household (now let's be clear that many mothers have tried mightly to raise their kids themselves and done well) does not augur well for school success.
6. The schools in areas with such problems have lowered funding and poorer quality resources, thus weakening more the chance that a kid can succeed. Again, some amazing kids have.
7. We have seen this in the USA and in other countries with similar economic problems, leading to family destruction. Increased single family households, multiple fathers, etc. Bad outcomes for generations.


Athletics - I've said my piece on that before. My father was an athlete. NBA referee, played some semi-pro baseball. So I got to meet players (he would take me to a game in Madison Square Garden and would sit with the reporters and play with my toys). He told me that he thought I should 'study'. Even though he was successful, he felt he wasted his time and should have gone to night school.

I've seen administrations go out of their way to let the star athlete get through. Now some were nasty, misbehaving kids but some (this got to me) were kids who thought being used a PR, fund raising tools for the school was going to get them a good education. Some didn't have the background and crashed. Although, we were supposed to pass them along and they were sequestered in a set of majors and faculty that were sympatico. Nothing like talking to a nice young man suffering from two weeks of blinding headaches from football concussions. Contrast that to one who wants out of a major course because it conflicts with volley ball. Could she have an independent study (find another advisor was the solution).

I also saw strange behaviors from Anglo TX kids from small towns. They weren't socialized to a quality university. They would go off the rails and then want to talk to you. It was a kind of macho dance. They would say they really like the course and wanted to show their 'respect' and apologize. At that point, you were supposed to puff up, bump chests and let them retake the test or whatever. Nope, then they dropped out or the dean let them drop even after the deadline.

Kid gets 38 on an intro test - that takes talent. Why? He's swimming 4 hourse a day for the team. What are you going to do, audition to play Aquaman? Another drop.

[LittleLebowski]

It's more than just that. School athletics, as much as I enjoy sports, allowed many seats to be taken up by dolts who could barely read. (And this is not a race related observation, there were as many white kids fitting this pigeonhole as any other race or ethnicity.)

It was almost offensive to sit in a classroom with someone that had not only no interest in the subject matter, but none of the hardware or mental software required to even comprehend it.

I was admittedly a somewhat idealistic kid...and when I received offers and scholarships to schools...I thought I'd be embarking on an intellectual journey akin to sitting at a Parisian cafe with Sartre, Camus and de Beauvoir. What I got was something quite a bit different.

I think being an autodidact is the best way to ensure a well rounded education. If you don't want to learn...you won't. Not everybody "needs" to go to college.

That's certainly a detestable problem in college, but I still believe that parenting is the main issue.

[blues]

That's certainly a detestable problem in college, but I still believe that parenting is the main issue.

I don't disagree. It doesn't matter what schools and facilities are available if they are not properly employed...and if they are not employed when available, then the root causes need to be explored and examined. It's not as simple as just "money". Many of us came from families that were less than well off.

Though, I think there's something to be said when the incomes of a one or two parent household are not enough to adequately get by. It might definitely adversely effect, (affect? I never get this right), the time and quality of the parenting and the results will skew from there.

It's tough. But even in the federal work force it was pretty disappointing to see how poorly educated many folks holding degrees actually were. Including those with advanced degrees.

Kind of like a puppy mill.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Actually, believe it or not (though I'm sure you're likely to know this) - the people I know who would be aghast at their hypothetical fraternization with you are aghast, because you've made your living doing icky things...like building with your hands. How droll.

I would say that those are people who, here, would be seen as very silly and foppish. In fact I think that attitude must be specific to a pretty narrow range - for example, one of my closest friends is a tenured prof at Columbia and keeps his old hardhat and boots displayed prominently on a shelf in his office. He was hired after the position was created with an old-money endowment that cropped up about five years ago. His oil and gas work is pretty well-known and nobody is saying "we can't have this expert on energy systems here, he used to work in the field!, building things with his hands!" In fact, last time I was out there I was asking about getting tenured and his top advice was "don't stay in the university system, teaching and slogging away, go work and get known for your work." He joined the army after high school, then had this system of: do a degree, then go work, then crack off another degree, then work, etc.

So no doubt there are a handful of people who are so divorced from reality that having done some hands-on work is seen as uncouth but I don't know, I think that's got to be pretty limited to some specific random people in particular fields. For example, you'd have to be in a field where it really is not economically driven - the question of "how much money you can make us" meritocratizes most industries.

This is kind of why I associate this thinking with people who have never really left the university system, or government bureaucrats. I don't think anybody living in the real world can afford that kind of prejudice: it's essentially starting a sports team and refusing to have people from one ethnicity on it because you don't like that group. You can do that if you want, but statistically it's just going to hinder your performance, so you have to be in a non-performance-based industry to do it.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have never seen evidence of a more intelligent student body at Ivy League schools compared to state university back during the period I attended in the early 70's. In fact, I was surprised at how poorly educated many of the Harvard students were when I went up there to visit a friend during that same period. (Though I always had a soft spot for Brown.)

They may have more resources and the old boy network, but for pure intellectual horsepower, I saw nothing to wow me.

That said, I know things have changed a great deal in the near half century since I started my freshman year in college, and even then it was beginning to be dumbed down by asses in seats that had no business being there for one reason or another.

But to get into a good State U. back then, you'd better have had excellent SATs and other things to point to on our app...unless you could check off a few boxes that gave you priority.

I had a prof from Penn when I was in university - our schools were doing some kind of prof-swapsies deal, I forget what they called it - and I asked him about that.

He said he thought the entry level classes at small state universities had a greater percentage of low-performing students than the ivy leagues, but by the time you got to about third year they were all about the same. The ivy leagues were just better able to screen on the front end. He also thought the top students in all universities seemed about the same. He was in political science; I would think if you looked at some of the rarified hard sciences it would be different. I would imagine that the physics department at Princeton would be demonstrably better than, I don't know, NCSU. Maybe not, but that's where I would expect to see the stratification actually occur. You don't need to be in the top 0.1% of brains to get a PhD in political science.

[blues]

I had a prof from Penn when I was in university - our schools were doing some kind of prof-swapsies deal, I forget what they called it - and I asked him about that.

He said he thought the entry level classes at small state universities had a greater percentage of low-performing students than the ivy leagues, but by the time you got to about third year they were all about the same. The ivy leagues were just better able to screen on the front end. He also thought the top students in all universities seemed about the same. He was in political science; I would think if you looked at some of the rarified hard sciences it would be different. I would imagine that the physics department at Princeton would be demonstrably better than, I don't know, NCSU. Maybe not, but that's where I would expect to see the stratification actually occur. You don't need to be in the top 0.1% of brains to get a PhD in political science.

Maybe so. The state school I attended, (back in the Pleistocene era ), was one of the top schools for physics, astrophysics, other sciences and math in those years...and had the nobel laureates and top scientists to prove it.

I don't know how things have evolved since...as most of my cohort can be found in the La Brea tar pits.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Back to manufacturing: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/05/12/some-f-35-suppliers-are-having-trouble-delivering-parts-on-schedule-and-turkeys-departure-could-make-that-worse/

Anybody ever think that having crucial parts for one of our major planes being made in Turkey:

1. Far away
2. Not a particularly friendly government that is in accord with our values and polices

is a brilliant idea. Yeah, makes money for someone if Turkey buys the plan. So we offer sweet heart deals.

We go to war and guess what - we are out of parts and the ol' dictator now wants some goodies.

[hiro]

This badge was not cheap. I try to buy made in the USA products when possible. It gets expensive quickly.

who made it?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Maybe so. The state school I attended, (back in the Pleistocene era ), was one of the top schools for physics, astrophysics, other sciences and math in those years...and had the nobel laureates and top scientists to prove it.

I don't know how things have evolved since...as most of my cohort can be found in the La Brea tar pits.

Well, maybe that's still the case, I don't know. I am only guessing as the hard sciences can seriously stratify intellect, whereas all the stuff I've done is pretty tolerant of mediocre thinkers, obviously.

But you get into math, potentially there would be a huge difference between being in the top 1% of math-gifted people, and the top 0.1%, so I could see actually having some major differences between schools. Of course, that wouldn't necessarily map onto ivy league stuff...I mean is MIT traditionally seen as an IL university? It's more of a private technical college I think? Or Stanford, they're not an ivy league school but their physics department is pretty legendary. Would you rather have been a top physics student at Brown or at Stanford? I would think Stanford is way more prestigious.

So in some ways maybe this is just more of an argument about what a weird upper-class-twit throwback the IL concept is - there's highly desirable programs that would sometimes map onto those schools and sometimes not. I would think if you had a state college that was famous for its physics department, that would attract people who could go to Pennsylvania if they wanted, but they might feel the paper from that particular state college program was more valuable, which could easily be true.

[Wondering Beard]

The Ivy League gets you credentialed, but not necessarily educated.

[Nephrology]

Well, maybe that's still the case, I don't know. I am only guessing as the hard sciences can seriously stratify intellect, whereas all the stuff I've done is pretty tolerant of mediocre thinkers, obviously.

But you get into math, potentially there would be a huge difference between being in the top 1% of math-gifted people, and the top 0.1%, so I could see actually having some major differences between schools. Of course, that wouldn't necessarily map onto ivy league stuff...I mean is MIT traditionally seen as an IL university? It's more of a private technical college I think? Or Stanford, they're not an ivy league school but their physics department is pretty legendary. Would you rather have been a top physics student at Brown or at Stanford? I would think Stanford is way more prestigious.

So in some ways maybe this is just more of an argument about what a weird upper-class-twit throwback the IL concept is - there's highly desirable programs that would sometimes map onto those schools and sometimes not. I would think if you had a state college that was famous for its physics department, that would attract people who could go to Pennsylvania if they wanted, but they might feel the paper from that particular state college program was more valuable, which could easily be true.

The big thing that separates STEM programs (at least in biology/related fields) from others are NIH-funded professors doing high level primary research, and of course the graduate programs/students/post-doc fellows and physical plant necessary for their work. This also applies to medical schools, but the dynamics of those institutions are pretty different from traditional undergrad/graduate universities.

For example, while Harvard and Yale have top-notch PhD programs, Brown does not (in the biological sciences anyway). They're good, but not a brand name in my field. Ditto for their medical school, which is frankly on the weak side. There is a large list of state schools with better reputations in both biomedical research + medical education, including UMich, UWisconsin-Madison, UWashington, U Colorado, UTSW, all the U California schools, and so on.

At the level of undergraduate STEM education, the value of these resources is a little more debatable, which is why I think Brown is still considered a great place to go to college. Most undergrad education simply requires lecture halls, a curriculum, and some pretty low-cost facilities for stuff like general chemistry lab etc. It's nice to have a Nobel laureate lecture to your molecular biology class, but that doesn't meaningfully change the quality of your education.

That said, a pre-med going to Brown is going to have more limited opportunities for on-campus research experience vs. the same student at CU Boulder, and the "yield" of these opportunities (academic posters, publications, other things to throw on CV/grad school apps) will be lower as well. These little things can add up when applying for graduate/professional schools or even just entering the workforce.

[JAD]

Yeah man I think Huntsville has as many Ph.Ds per square mile as Los Alamos.

Can confirm.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

The big thing that separates STEM programs (at least in biology/related fields) from others are NIH-funded professors doing high level primary research, and of course the graduate programs/students/post-doc fellows and physical plant necessary for their work. This also applies to medical schools, but the dynamics of those institutions are pretty different from traditional undergrad/graduate universities.

For example, while Harvard and Yale have top-notch PhD programs, Brown does not (in the biological sciences anyway). They're good, but not a brand name in my field. Ditto for their medical school, which is frankly on the weak side. There is a large list of state schools with better reputations in both biomedical research + medical education, including UMich, UWisconsin-Madison, UWashington, U Colorado, UTSW, all the U California schools, and so on.

At the level of undergraduate STEM education, the value of these resources is a little more debatable, which is why I think Brown is still considered a great place to go to college. Most undergrad education simply requires lecture halls, a curriculum, and some pretty low-cost facilities for stuff like general chemistry lab etc. It's nice to have a Nobel laureate lecture to your molecular biology class, but that doesn't meaningfully change the quality of your education.

That said, a pre-med going to Brown is going to have more limited opportunities for on-campus research experience vs. the same student at CU Boulder, and the "yield" of these opportunities (academic posters, publications, other things to throw on CV/grad school apps) will be lower as well. These little things can add up when applying for graduate/professional schools or even just entering the workforce.

Right, perfect example - as I'm sure everyone can guess I don't spend a lot of time keeping track of which US universities are prestigious and which aren't but if it's easy to name a bunch of state schools which have a way more desirable brand in a high-achievement field, to me that just screams "people who are super psyched about ivy league pedigree are probably mostly people going to ivy league schools."

I mean I have to look up what universities are even considered ivy league there, and if I hadn't had a prof from Pennsylvania I would never have known it was one of them, so I would say the brand is a bit limited to begin with. It wouldn't buy you anything here, anyway. But from the sounds of things it doesn't neccesarily buy you much there, either. Clearly any outfit choosing big-money big-education hires would be drilling down into the actual programs of the schools you were associated with.

In conclusion, I am running with my original premise, which is that overemphasis on IL schools is silly and foppish and people who do that are probably not people I would take very seriously.

[Nephrology]

In conclusion, I am running with my original premise, which is that overemphasis on IL schools is silly and foppish and people who do that are probably not people I would take very seriously.

Yes it's mostly a social club for blue blood elite. Besides, even in medicine/biology, the specifics of who you trained with are more important than the university brand name, as everything is very field and specialty specific.

Great example - Mayo Clinic, where I used to work. Top notch in most medical and surgical specialties. However, their Pediatrics and Emergency Medicine residency programs are at best average in quality and reputation.

Why? because Mayo Clinic's business model and location simply does not attract very many patients to either department (both specialties typically do not bring in much money, if any, in most hospitals). This is why the best ER and are typically in big metro areas with county-funded medical centers and a diversity of hospitals to train in (e.g. LA, NYC, Chicago, Denver, Seattle, Boston, SF, etc). FWIW.

[vcdgrips]

Random thoughts re the school drift.

I base this on having had two kids (twins) in a 100+ year old private college prep "day" school from pre-k thru 12th grade. It is "the" school for both old and new money in town. Their mother is a 25 yr elementary school teacher there and I coached/Scout Mastered there so I have had the opportunity to "track" hundreds of kids on their paths to college. I have one child at an Ivy and one at a small private religious college. Both are exactly where they wanted to be.

1. There are the true Ivys and there are what are sometimes referred to as "Ivy Peer Schools." Stanford, MIT and University of Chicago are the three I hear as "peers" on a routine basis.
Reasonable minds could argue that Duke, Rice, Vanderbilt, Cal Institute of Tech, Johns Hopkins and perhaps Northwestern are in play as well.

2. IMHO, based on my 25 years of observation of this "feeder" school (and others based on my time as a Scoutmaster) into Ivys, Ivy Peers and many other "top" schools is that-legacy status, ability to full pay (and thereby being able to take advantage of early decision/early admission programs) and athletic prowess drives admissions far more than ethnicity.

3. Ivys, Ivy Peers and most other "top" school are very generous with "need" based financial aid and define need much more broadly than you would expect. (i.e. 135K income, Tuition 65K paid for, family pays room and board of 15 K plus incidentals and travel (5K max) which is less than State U /80k income, Tuition 65 K paid for, room and board paid for,no parental contribution expected, kid to kick in 2-4k via summer job/working on campus during school year re incidentals.

4. Coming from a school with a true college prep curriculum with parents who have been where these kids are going/want to go is a huge advantage relative to the vast majority of even well funded public high schools. Both in terms of getting in to the college of choice and being academically successful.

I could go on. FWIW

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Nephrology Interesting - naturally it makes sense when you think about it.

Funny that a thread on bringing manufacturing jobs back ended up as an education in higher education.

[Doc_Glock]

This badge was not cheap. I try to buy made in the USA products when possible. It gets expensive quickly.

I have had Handbuilt in USA frames that just sucked. Because it was handbuilt by a stoner with limited work ethic.

On the other hand I have some brilliantly built Taiwanese frames that have served day in and day out without breaking.

[peterb]

3. Ivys, Ivy Peers and most other "top" school are very generous with "need" based financial aid and define need much more broadly than you would expect.

Which is where folks can shoot themselves in the foot with reverse snobbery. “I wouldn’t want to go/want my kid to go to one of those snobby elitist schools” is shortsighted, both financially and academically. Sure, it can be a culture shock, but for the right kid it can be a whole new world of opportunity.

Back to manufacturing...

Another problem I see is populism run amok, where anger at “elites” extends to disbelief in legitimate expertise. Sometimes experts really are experts, and they do know more about the subject than you do.

In the auto industry I saw some incredibly stupid labor/management conflicts drag out because neither side was willing to admit that the other might be right about something.

[randyho]

I have had Handbuilt in USA frames that just sucked. Because it was handbuilt by a stoner with limited work ethic.

On the other hand I have some brilliantly built Taiwanese frames that have served day in and day out without breaking.

I've carried several foreign-made bikes out of the woods in pieces. The last was a canondale, so at least it was an american company who wound up giving me a replacement frame... that I sold immediately. Also, had a custom steel road frame made for me from a local guy who was, imo, highly over-rated. End product and price did not justify the time and $'s. My next custom road bike was built in Oregon (Landshark) and was entirely worth the cost (roughly the same) and wait (much less).

Oddly, my cheapist and favorite mtb's came from Serotta and LiteSpeed. Pricey up front but they held together through more than one season of racing. Still have the latter which is 20+ years old now? #value (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=value)

[SafetyFirst]

who made it?

Litespeed. 2018 gravel frame

[SafetyFirst]

I have had Handbuilt in USA frames that just sucked. Because it was handbuilt by a stoner with limited work ethic.

On the other hand I have some brilliantly built Taiwanese frames that have served day in and day out without breaking.


Here’s my last Taiwanese made frame. Spend your money however you like. I’ve had 4 brilliant handmade in the USA frames that lasted quite awhile.

[hiro]

Here’s my last Taiwanese made frame. Spend your money however you like. I’ve had 4 brilliant handmade in the USA frames that lasted quite awhile.

You've posted that pic before I think so I won't comment again.

Ironically enough, when I left the (bike) industry a couple of years ago, it was the Chinese fabricated carbon frames that were held in the best regard, they've invested more money in the set up than most. I don't know how that's changed since or how many people still share the opinion. I don't think there are many or any, US carbon frames aside from the guys just bonding tubes and lugs which to me isn't making the most of the advantages of carbon but I'm pleased to be out of the industry and I'm not keeping up to date.

[peterb]

I don't think there are many or any, US carbon frames aside from the guys just bonding tubes and lugs which to me isn't making the most of the advantages of carbon but I'm pleased to be out of the industry and I'm not keeping up to date.

A couple that I know of:

https://alliedcycleworks.com/

https://www.pursuitcycles.com/

[UNK]

Agreed- but there's this belief that manufacturing, and any skill trades, are somehow inferior jobs- menial, undignified and demeaning. A lot of what I heard during my school days shaded towards the idea that manual labor was for the losers and failures and those not smart enough to get a degree. Obviously, my cohort and I would all be heading to college, least we be one of... those kind.

It's just another factor to consider why we're no longer really in the manufacturing business- our education establishment has instilled a loathing and disgust of the whole enterprise.

We are straight up not in the mfg business because of a bunch of “Im really smart” m....f.......s who never had a real job in their lifes or created jobs got elected to positions where outsourcing was the pathway. We are gonna have a “service economy” “those jobs are never coming back” f....ing morons. Im sure money and assistance getting reelected had no small part in it.
I guarantee you post a factory laborer job with good pay and benefits there will be a ton of people apply. And it may be their children will be the first in the family to go to college. A good skilled trades guy can easily make $100,000 a year. Heck Ive seen production people make that much.

[peterb]

We are straight up not in the mfg business because of a bunch of “Im really smart” m....f.......s who never had a real job in their lifes or created jobs got elected to positions where outsourcing was the pathway. We are gonna have a “service economy” “those jobs are never coming back” f....ing morons. Im sure money and assistance getting reelected had no small part in it.

If your goal is lower costs and you don’t look further ahead than the next quarterly earnings report, outsourcing is logical. People respond to the incentives they have and the rules in place.

Rewriting the rules to encourage long-term investments at home might be a good step. Changing the tax code to make investments in manufacturing more attractive than financial manipulation might also help. But the financial services lobby would object....

[UNK]

If your goal is lower costs and you don’t look further ahead than the next quarterly earnings report, outsourcing is logical. People respond to the incentives they have and the rules in place.

Rewriting the rules to encourage long-term investments at home might be a good step. Changing the tax code to make investments in manufacturing more attractive than financial manipulation might also help. But the financial services lobby would object....

Trump is the answer

[blues]

Trump is the answer

What is the question?

[hiro]

A couple that I know of:

https://alliedcycleworks.com/

https://www.pursuitcycles.com/

Interesting to see an e-stay on the Allied Able. I get why and I expect its what you can do with the carbon lay up that keeps the BB rigid while the one by means you don't have to worry about how to mount the front mech.

Thanks for linking :)

[UNK]

What is the question?

People respond to the incentives they have and the rules in place.

Rewriting the rules to encourage long-term investments at home might be a good step. Changing the tax code to make investments in manufacturing more attractive than financial manipulation might also help. But the financial services lobby would object....

[blues]

People respond to the incentives they have and the rules in place.

Rewriting the rules to encourage long-term investments at home might be a good step. Changing the tax code to make investments in manufacturing more attractive than financial manipulation might also help. But the financial services lobby would object....

And the question...?

[UNK]

And the question...?

I dunno. I dont remember any questions. Or any answers. Merely statements.

[Lex Luthier]

This badge was not cheap. I try to buy made in the USA products when possible. It gets expensive quickly.

Moots? Independent Fabrication?

[hiro]

Moots? Independent Fabrication?


Litespeed. 2018 gravel frame

[Cyberpunk1981]

That's certainly a detestable problem in college, but I still believe that parenting is the main issue.

This is why we should just get rid of college sports and move to a more European model where academics are what we focus on. Let them be clubs rather than a branch of the university. Unfortunately this would also mean we would need to properly fund higher education rather than depend on an athletics department to raise revenues for the schools.

[Joe in PNG]

This is why we should just get rid of college sports and move to a more European model where academics are what we focus on. Let them be clubs rather than a branch of the university. Unfortunately this would also mean we would need to properly fund higher education rather than depend on an athletics department to raise revenues for the schools.

Better if fewer high school grads were pushed into attending higher education. Especially those of little means, little ambition, and very little idea of what they want to do with their lives.

College really should not be seen as the place to 'find yourself', especially if it means lots of expensive, unforgivable student loans. And then after a few expensive years, they decide that really isn't for them, and drop out.
It shouldn't be "High School II: Now With More Drinking and Sex".

[JDD]

This is why we should just get rid of college sports and move to a more European model where academics are what we focus on. Let them be clubs rather than a branch of the university. Unfortunately this would also mean we would need to properly fund higher education rather than depend on an athletics department to raise revenues for the schools.

I strongly agree.

Also, in general and with a few exceptions for the biggest name division one schools, college athletic programs are a drain on higher education, and do not generally cover their own costs.

This is a slightly older study, and it can be hard to find good references
https://www.air.org/sites/default/files/downloads/report/Academic-Spending-vs-Athletic-Spending.pdf


https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-bill-for-college-sports-and-how-some-are-fighting-back/2015/11/30/7ca47476-8d3e-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html

[peterb]

This is why we should just get rid of college sports and move to a more European model where academics are what we focus on. Let them be clubs rather than a branch of the university. Unfortunately this would also mean we would need to properly fund higher education rather than depend on an athletics department to raise revenues for the schools.

The students on the "club sports"(student-run) teams at my college seemed to have just as much fun as the varsity athletes, at a tiny fraction of the cost.

[blues]

The students on the "club sports"(student-run) teams at my college seemed to have just as much fun as the varsity athletes, at a tiny fraction of the cost.

We had great fun with intramural football, basketball and soccer during my time at school. Though the damn refs weren't any better. ;)

[Borderland]

I'm wondering how much money a university could save if they didn't buy sports equipment. That has to be a huge expense for everyone enrolled there.

If everyone did team sports I suppose it would be fair but many don't. They're just there for an education.

Admittedly, I'm not much of a sports fan. I played some baseball in HS and had a lot of fun but I think those programs are tax based, not tuition based.

[mtnbkr]

I'm wondering how much money a university could save if they didn't buy sports equipment. That has to be a huge expense for everyone enrolled there.


It is my understanding they would lose money because the sports programs are net money-makers.

Chris

[JDD]

It is my understanding they would lose money because the sports programs are net money-makers.

Chris

Oddly enough, that is not the case. I posted a few articles earlier, but with relatively few exceptions, programs are in the hole revenue-wise, and they sponge off of student fees to make up the budget defect. Coach salaries and scholarships are the big ones, but it looks like stadiums and severance payments are huge as well. It is part of why in most states in the U.S., the highest paid public employee is usually a coach.


https://twitter.com/NCAAResearch/status/1237388490037317633/photo/1

From that graphic, it looks like NCAA programs across the board take about $6.3 billion in "institutional and government support", with another $1.5 billion coming in from student fees. That $7.8b is a pretty hefty chunk of their $18b in expenses. I am sure it varies widely across schools, but taken across the board, college athletics are currently a parasite on higher education.

Edit: here is a better resource than a damn twitter graphic, with a lot more meat: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/finances-intercollegiate-athletics

"While schools in the five autonomy conferences generate more revenue (via ticket sales, broadcast rights, and NCAA and conference distributions, among other sources) than their counterparts in the rest of Division I, median athletics expenses at those 65 schools exceeded their total generated revenues by $2.6 million in 2018. Meanwhile, among the nonautonomy schools in Division I, median expenses outpaced generated revenues by roughly $22 million. Schools account for those deficits by subsidizing athletics via student activity fees and direct support from the university, among other means. In total, only 29 athletics departments’ generated revenues exceeded their expenses in 2018 — all were in the autonomy five conferences — and the average surplus at those schools was $9.3 million. "

[Darth_Uno]

I’m a bigger sports fan than most on this forum, and I still say high school has no business having sports teams. It’s an expense that benefits a handful of kids, while everyone else pays for it.

Colleges, I don’t know enough to say. But it costs you nothing to simply not go, while you’re paying the local high school no matter what.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Trooper224]

It is my understanding they would lose money because the sports programs are net money-makers.

Chris

This is unequivocally false. My wife has been an educator for over thirty years, in the highschool and college setting. In no way do athletics pay for themselves. It seems so on the surface, but when you look at how much a highschool or college team brings in and compare that with the outlay spent in supporting those teams, the numbers don't add up. Schools use athletics as PR tools and as an attempt to gain donations from boosters and donors. Of course, most of that money then goes back into the team, or into the salaries of the coaching staff and/or school superintendent. If you doubt me, go to your local school board and demand to see the financial breakdown of your highschool team, something you're entitled to as a tax paying member of the community. Of course, they won't let you have it unless you threaten a lawsuit (how do I know this?) because school board members are just shills for local industries that live off the school system and closet child molesters. The old axiom that athletic teams pay for themselves or provide profit is an old excuse for their existence.

[Trooper224]

I’m a bigger sports fan than most on this forum, and I still say high school has no business having sports teams. It’s an expense that benefits a handful of kids, while everyone else pays for it.

Colleges, I don’t know enough to say. But it costs you nothing to simply not go, while you’re paying the local high school no matter what.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll disagree with this extremist viewpoint. There's nothing wrong with school athletics. They can provide avenues to success and opportunities for growth that certain kids may not find elsewhere. The entire problem is the overemphasis that is placed upon them in the educational system. That's totally whacked.

[Darth_Uno]

I'll disagree with this extremist viewpoint. There's nothing wrong with school athletics. They can provide avenues to success and opportunities for growth that certain kids may not find elsewhere. The entire problem is the overemphasis that is placed upon them in the educational system. That's totally whacked.

By the time your kid is 13 or 14, if he or she is really that good at sports then someone will want him/her to play for them. If you privatized all sports, they'd still find the standout players and figure out a way to get you on the team.

I played sports. My uncle coaches the HS baseball team. I have uncles coaching two HS basketball teams. My aunt coached the girls softball team. I come from a pretty athletic family, and while I didn't get 100% of that gene I get to see the plus side of teamwork and sportsmanship quite often.

I just don't see enough of a benefit to foist it on the taxpayers.

[OlongJohnson]

I’m a bigger sports fan than most on this forum, and I still say high school has no business having sports teams.

High school sports were incredibly important in my development as a human being, and I was pretty much the opposite of a jock. When they have the right role in life, they provide massive value as a part of the overall educational experience that develops our young people.

Of course, they can also become pathological...

[Half Moon]

High school sports were incredibly important in my development as a human being, and I was pretty much the opposite of a jock. When they have the right role in life, they provide massive value as a part of the overall educational experience that develops our young people.

Of course, they can also become pathological...

Pathological side: A boss of mine is one of the brightest people I know. Degrees in Veterinary Medicine, Finance, MBA, CPA, yada. Also apparently a stand out college athlete until he shattered his leg. He tells the story of showing up for a science course only to have the professor let him know the football team didn't need to. His grade would be taken care of. (Of course he did keep going and doing the work).

[mtnbkr]

Ok. What I had read multiple times turned out to be false, probably a repeat of bad info or outright lies. Thanks for setting me straight. :)

Chris


Oddly enough, that is not the case. I posted a few articles earlier, but with relatively few exceptions, programs are in the hole revenue-wise, and they sponge off of student fees to make up the budget defect. Coach salaries and scholarships are the big ones, but it looks like stadiums and severance payments are huge as well. It is part of why in most states in the U.S., the highest paid public employee is usually a coach.


https://twitter.com/NCAAResearch/status/1237388490037317633/photo/1

From that graphic, it looks like NCAA programs across the board take about $6.3 billion in "institutional and government support", with another $1.5 billion coming in from student fees. That $7.8b is a pretty hefty chunk of their $18b in expenses. I am sure it varies widely across schools, but taken across the board, college athletics are currently a parasite on higher education.

Edit: here is a better resource than a damn twitter graphic, with a lot more meat: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/finances-intercollegiate-athletics

"While schools in the five autonomy conferences generate more revenue (via ticket sales, broadcast rights, and NCAA and conference distributions, among other sources) than their counterparts in the rest of Division I, median athletics expenses at those 65 schools exceeded their total generated revenues by $2.6 million in 2018. Meanwhile, among the nonautonomy schools in Division I, median expenses outpaced generated revenues by roughly $22 million. Schools account for those deficits by subsidizing athletics via student activity fees and direct support from the university, among other means. In total, only 29 athletics departments’ generated revenues exceeded their expenses in 2018 — all were in the autonomy five conferences — and the average surplus at those schools was $9.3 million. "


This is unequivocally false. My wife has been an educator for over thirty years, in the highschool and college setting. In no way do athletics pay for themselves. It seems so on the surface, but when you look at how much a highschool or college team brings in and compare that with the outlay spent in supporting those teams, the numbers don't add up. Schools use athletics as PR tools and as an attempt to gain donations from boosters and donors. Of course, most of that money then goes back into the team, or into the salaries of the coaching staff and/or school superintendent. If you doubt me, go to your local school board and demand to see the financial breakdown of your highschool team, something you're entitled to as a tax paying member of the community. Of course, they won't let you have it unless you threaten a lawsuit (how do I know this?) because school board members are just shills for local industries that live off the school system and closet child molesters. The old axiom that athletic teams pay for themselves or provide profit is an old excuse for their existence.

[Baldanders]

This is unequivocally false. My wife has been an educator for over thirty years, in the highschool and college setting. In no way do athletics pay for themselves. It seems so on the surface, but when you look at how much a highschool or college team brings in and compare that with the outlay spent in supporting those teams, the numbers don't add up. Schools use athletics as PR tools and as an attempt to gain donations from boosters and donors. Of course, most of that money then goes back into the team, or into the salaries of the coaching staff and/or school superintendent. If you doubt me, go to your local school board and demand to see the financial breakdown of your highschool team, something you're entitled to as a tax paying member of the community. Of course, they won't let you have it unless you threaten a lawsuit (how do I know this?) because school board members are just shills for local industries that live off the school system and closet child molesters. The old axiom that athletic teams pay for themselves or provide profit is an old excuse for their existence.

Sometimes I see a rant and think "cool, no need to vent on this one, I feel better." This would be one of those. Very complete.

I would be crucified if I said anything like this publicly. Or "ran out on a rail..."

[Borderland]

I’m a bigger sports fan than most on this forum, and I still say high school has no business having sports teams. It’s an expense that benefits a handful of kids, while everyone else pays for it.

Colleges, I don’t know enough to say. But it costs you nothing to simply not go, while you’re paying the local high school no matter what.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I played baseball in HS. I think HS sports worthwhile and continue to support it. My neighbors son is about to graduate and was a football standout. One of the nicest kids you could ever meet. HS sports is a character building experience. People learn a lot of social skills in HS sports programs. Where else are they going to get that unless they go into the military? College should be an academic endeavor. Very few who play college sports will ever be able to turn that into a paycheck.

I see a lot of HS kids that have zero respect for authority and older generations. I can tell that they never played sports in HS. My experience is HS sports is a foundation to learn to set goals and excel from nothing but a lot of hard work.

[Eric_L]

This is unequivocally false. My wife has been an educator for over thirty years, in the highschool and college setting. In no way do athletics pay for themselves. It seems so on the surface, but when you look at how much a highschool or college team brings in and compare that with the outlay spent in supporting those teams, the numbers don't add up. Schools use athletics as PR tools and as an attempt to gain donations from boosters and donors. Of course, most of that money then goes back into the team, or into the salaries of the coaching staff and/or school superintendent. If you doubt me, go to your local school board and demand to see the financial breakdown of your highschool team, something you're entitled to as a tax paying member of the community. Of course, they won't let you have it unless you threaten a lawsuit (how do I know this?) because school board members are just shills for local industries that live off the school system and closet child molesters. The old axiom that athletic teams pay for themselves or provide profit is an old excuse for their existence.

Can you give a little more detail on what you see in school boards? I am not doubting you, just wondering if you have the time,inclination to flesh it out......thank you.

[JDD]

Ok. What I had read multiple times turned out to be false, probably a repeat of bad info or outright lies. Thanks for setting me straight. :)

Chris

It was a surprise to me as well. I did a bunch of reading about it awhile ago, because my alma mater decided to stop focusing on our competitive Div1 hockey team, and started trying to turn the ...less than stellar... football team into a money maker. They have been distinctly unsuccessful.

[Joe in PNG]

There's sports in high school, and then there's Highschool Sports.

Sports in high school is a good thing, when more low key and not allowed to interfere with academics. It gives people of different backgrounds a chance to work towards a common goal together, helps with physical fitness, and lets kids get some energy out in a productive way.

Highschool Sports, on the other hand, can be a bad thing. Need we go into the practice of letting the star jocks coast through classes, so they don't lose eligibility? Or potential lifelong injuries from impact sports? My knees are still in terrible shape from those days.

Like a lot of things, a little bit is good, but too much is bad.

[RoyGBiv]

This is unequivocally false. My wife has been an educator for over thirty years, in the highschool and college setting. In no way do athletics pay for themselves.
When we visited UA (Arizona) in January, the Dean(?) of the College of Science said in her presentation :This College brings in more $$ to the university than all university sports combined".

We left that presentation and my kid said "We don't need to visit Alabama any more."

[Trooper224]

Can you give a little more detail on what you see in school boards? I am not doubting you, just wondering if you have the time,inclination to flesh it out......thank you.

It's been my experience that school boards, county commissions, city councils, etc. are comprised largely of bankrupt business owners. People who can't handle their own finances, yet get voted in to handle the larger picture. These positions usually have term limits, so the same people usually just rotate around through the various entities, largely because the general public has no interest in serving. You'll also get the thrity and under crowd who think they're going to be the next Barry Obama or Bernie Sanders, who don't have the faintest clue, but their real crusaders, rallying against their white privilege and championing the local vagrant, I mean homeless population. In the case of school boards, you'll have parents serving who thought their little shit stain wasn't being treated fairly. So, they'll have some kind of issue that's a particular burr under their saddle. You know, that nasty chem teacher is effecting Johnny's GPA with his science grade. Never mind that Johnny's been spending too much time behind the stadium bleachers sticking it to little Suzie firm tits, instead of doing his homework. That just isn't right. Little Suzie's lost her spot on the cheer leading squad because she got knocked up by Johnny and her tits won't fit into the sweater anymore. That's just not right and something needs to be done. The grading scale is too harsh because Ray Ray ain't passin'. Never mind that Ray Ray should really be in the classroom in the basement, wearing a crash helmet with the other 'tards, at least until he winds up in the pen with his pops. That shit ain't right. Then, once their little shit stains are out of school, on the govt. cheese or in the pen with pops they could give a rats ass about anyone else. Fuck it, participation medals for all. Then, you'll have people serving on the board who might say, own a construction company. Every time a construction project for the school district is put out in a closed bid, that persons company gets the contract. Shocking I know. You'll have a few good people here and there, but they usually get so fed up they throw in the towel fairly quickly.

Stuff like that.

[Wondering Beard]

Long but worth your time:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImWLXaQxN5o