The Five Shot

[Bruce Cartwright]

Folks:
As requested by TGS in response to my introductory thread in the General Discussion Forum, I figured I'd do a post about J frame revolvers. What follows is adapted and updated from a blog article I published on my website.

The “Five Shot” was an FBI nickname for Smith and Wesson J frame revolvers of various models that agents could carry up until December of 2004. These were mostly chambered in .38 Special but some in .357 magnum were around. These guns typically had 2 inch long barrels and fixed sights. They could be had in the Chiefs Special configuration with an exposed hammer, the Body Guard style with a hammer that was shrouded and the Centennial style with a completely enclosed hammer. The guns could either be blued steel or stainless steel, but I don’t believe nickel finished guns were authorized. Airweight models with aluminum frames were not authorized. The FBI Personally Owned Weapon List (“POW”) at the time, allowed for an agent to carry a variety of revolvers made by Smith and Wesson (and possibly Colt) provided they were blue or stainless, chambered in .38 special or .357 magnum, with fixed or adjustable sights and had barrels between 2 and 4 inches in length. Sadly, the Five Shot, was withdrawn from the POW list on December 31, 2004.

Since the Bureau typically operates in plain clothes as an investigative agency, lots of agents carried these guns. Even as late as the 1990s, when I joined the Bureau, there were still a large number of agents that carried these guns, especially lots of supervisors who didn’t do lots of street work. Supervisors were supposed to be armed and this was a small lightweight option for them. There was another group of agents that used these guns as back up weapons. Lots of Bureau heavy hitters carried this type of gun. My personal choice was a Smith and Wesson Model 640 in 38 Special. This was one of the early "38" frame guns and a gift from my bride. The stocks were made by Craig Spegel in walnut. I was still a relatively new agent when I was able to order these stocks from Mr. Spegel and I chose to keep costs down which is why they are not checkered. I have huge hands (I wear XXL gloves) and these stocks drastically improved my ability to shoot this gun. The gun has lots of scratches and bumps and dings. I carried it daily.

An agent had to qualify with their Five Shot and did so on regular qualification course that included a 25 yard stage. While the Five Shots were not easy to shoot, they were accurate. My worst score with my Five Shot was 92 percent. I shot many 100 percent scores, but I had had to work at it.

These guns filled a niche that is only starting to be addressed today-that of a small, highly concealable gun. The Five Shots could easily be carried in a coat pocket in your hand and surreptitiously pointed at a subject without anyone noticing, if need be. I did it several times and was able to cover my partner during a particularly tense encounter once. Most of the time these guns rode in ankle holsters, coat pockets and trouser pockets.

The Five Shot was not a gun you chose to go to war with. Rather, it supplemented your bigger gun(s). They were usually very reliable and hence were often carried when bigger guns couldn’t be used/concealed. It was nearly a decade after the Five Shot was taken off the POW list, that truly reliable small semiautomatic pistols (think S&W Shield) have been marketed. When I wrote this article in late 2017, the Bureau still had not authorized a truly small semiauto pistol that would fill the niche that the Five Shot occupied for so long. My understanding is the Glock 43 is now authorized for agents to carry.

Today, most think these are guns for more experienced shooters and I agree. They lack capacity, have relatively heavy trigger pulls and are hard to shoot. But the Five Shot fills a niche that is only now beginning to be filled. I stopped carrying my stainless Centennial on the last day of December 2004 and regretted not being able to do so for the remainder of the time I carried the FBI badge and creds. Great little guns.

[Nephrology]

Great post! Love the perspective you provide on their use with the FBI.

[tew3006]

I love my J frame! It makes me concentrate more to shoot accurately, but it makes up for it when I carry it.

[camsdaddy]

That a very nice J frame. It has a lot of character and shows to have been used for its intended purpose.

In 04 did most agents swap to Glock 26/27 size guns or something else for back up and personal carry?

[Paul D]

Thank you for that fantastic write up. Do you have any examples were the 5 shot was used by FBI agents; how it performed and lessons learned afterwards?

[blues]

When I started federal service in the early 80's we were issued the 2" Model 15 and, some of the "cool guys", a Model 36. Extra points if you were issued both. Virtually everyone carried a Model 36 off-duty. Had to be blue steel. No shiny guns allowed. (That was the NYPD standard back then as well, as I recall.)

I last qualified on the job with a Model 36 in 1995 or 1996 when I transitioned to a Glock 26 in its place.

Now that I'm retired, a 642-1 is back as part of my "home and environs" carry. What goes around, comes around it seems.

[Rex G]

Folks:
As requested by TGS in response to my introductory thread in the General Discussion Forum, I figured I'd do a post about J frame revolvers. What follows is adapted and updated from a blog article I published on my website.

The “Five Shot” was an FBI nickname for Smith and Wesson J frame revolvers of various models that agents could carry up until December of 2004. These were mostly chambered in .38 Special but some in .357 magnum were around. These guns typically had 2 inch long barrels and fixed sights. They could be had in the Chiefs Special configuration with an exposed hammer, the Body Guard style with a hammer that was shrouded and the Centennial style with a completely enclosed hammer. The guns could either be blued steel or stainless steel, but I don’t believe nickel finished guns were authorized. Airweight models with aluminum frames were not authorized. The FBI Personally Owned Weapon List (“POW”) at the time, allowed for an agent to carry a variety of revolvers made by Smith and Wesson (and possibly Colt) provided they were blue or stainless, chambered in .38 special or .357 magnum, with fixed or adjustable sights and had barrels between 2 and 4 inches in length. Sadly, the Five Shot, was withdrawn from the POW list on December 31, 2004.

Since the Bureau typically operates in plain clothes as an investigative agency, lots of agents carried these guns. Even as late as the 1990s, when I joined the Bureau, there were still a large number of agents that carried these guns, especially lots of supervisors who didn’t do lots of street work. Supervisors were supposed to be armed and this was a small lightweight option for them. There was another group of agents that used these guns as back up weapons. Lots of Bureau heavy hitters carried this type of gun. My personal choice was a Smith and Wesson Model 640 in 38 Special. This was one of the early "38" frame guns and a gift from my bride. The stocks were made by Craig Spegel in walnut. I was still a relatively new agent when I was able to order these stocks from Mr. Spegel and I chose to keep costs down which is why they are not checkered. I have huge hands (I wear XXL gloves) and these stocks drastically improved my ability to shoot this gun. The gun has lots of scratches and bumps and dings. I carried it daily.

An agent had to qualify with their Five Shot and did so on regular qualification course that included a 25 yard stage. While the Five Shots were not easy to shoot, they were accurate. My worst score with my Five Shot was 92 percent. I shot many 100 percent scores, but I had had to work at it.

These guns filled a niche that is only starting to be addressed today-that of a small, highly concealable gun. The Five Shots could easily be carried in a coat pocket in your hand and surreptitiously pointed at a subject without anyone noticing, if need be. I did it several times and was able to cover my partner during a particularly tense encounter once. Most of the time these guns rode in ankle holsters, coat pockets and trouser pockets.

The Five Shot was not a gun you chose to go to war with. Rather, it supplemented your bigger gun(s). They were usually very reliable and hence were often carried when bigger guns couldn’t be used/concealed. It was nearly a decade after the Five Shot was taken off the POW list, that truly reliable small semiautomatic pistols (think S&W Shield) have been marketed. When I wrote this article in late 2017, the Bureau still had not authorized a truly small semiauto pistol that would fill the niche that the Five Shot occupied for so long. My understanding is the Glock 43 is now authorized for agents to carry.

Today, most think these are guns for more experienced shooters and I agree. They lack capacity, have relatively heavy trigger pulls and are hard to shoot. But the Five Shot fills a niche that is only now beginning to be filled. I stopped carrying my stainless Centennial on the last day of December 2004 and regretted not being able to do so for the remainder of the time I carried the FBI badge and creds. Great little guns.

Well-written. Thanks for sharing this.

[HCM]

When I started federal service in the early 80's we were issued the 2" Model 15 and, some of the "cool guys", a Model 36. Extra points if you were issued both. Virtually everyone carried a Model 36 off-duty. Had to be blue steel. No shiny guns allowed. (That was the NYPD standard back then as well, as I recall.)

I last qualified on the job with a Model 36 in 1995 or 1996 when I transitioned to a Glock 26 in its place.

Now that I'm retired, a 642-1 is back as part of my "home and environs" carry. What goes around, comes around it seems.

Our agency ceased approving new POW J frames a bit over a year ago though grandfathered POW and GOV issued J frames remain in service. My 340 is the last J frame in service in my office out of approximately 700 LEO in the AOR. I find it fill the BUG role better than small autos.

The steel rams only requirement was dropped about 10 years ago but may have contributed to the demise of the J in service as all J’s out into service had to be sent to armory operations for inspection which included X-raying for defects.

[03RN]

Thanks for sharing

Are any revolvers allowed?

[Old Virginia]

Yes, I have 5 pocket guns and 5 micro 9mm's. Shoot often. But man do I love the 642 frame for Carry. So Very Simple for carrying every single day. Day in and out. So easy to check, unload, etc. And so fun to shoot!! Nice and lightweight.

My favorite PLINKER of all time is the LCR22. I love the small revolvers and so under rated.

[HCM]

Folks:
As requested by TGS in response to my introductory thread in the General Discussion Forum, I figured I'd do a post about J frame revolvers. What follows is adapted and updated from a blog article I published on my website.

The “Five Shot” was an FBI nickname for Smith and Wesson J frame revolvers of various models that agents could carry up until December of 2004. These were mostly chambered in .38 Special but some in .357 magnum were around. These guns typically had 2 inch long barrels and fixed sights. They could be had in the Chiefs Special configuration with an exposed hammer, the Body Guard style with a hammer that was shrouded and the Centennial style with a completely enclosed hammer. The guns could either be blued steel or stainless steel, but I don’t believe nickel finished guns were authorized. Airweight models with aluminum frames were not authorized. The FBI Personally Owned Weapon List (“POW”) at the time, allowed for an agent to carry a variety of revolvers made by Smith and Wesson (and possibly Colt) provided they were blue or stainless, chambered in .38 special or .357 magnum, with fixed or adjustable sights and had barrels between 2 and 4 inches in length. Sadly, the Five Shot, was withdrawn from the POW list on December 31, 2004.

Since the Bureau typically operates in plain clothes as an investigative agency, lots of agents carried these guns. Even as late as the 1990s, when I joined the Bureau, there were still a large number of agents that carried these guns, especially lots of supervisors who didn’t do lots of street work. Supervisors were supposed to be armed and this was a small lightweight option for them. There was another group of agents that used these guns as back up weapons. Lots of Bureau heavy hitters carried this type of gun. My personal choice was a Smith and Wesson Model 640 in 38 Special. This was one of the early "38" frame guns and a gift from my bride. The stocks were made by Craig Spegel in walnut. I was still a relatively new agent when I was able to order these stocks from Mr. Spegel and I chose to keep costs down which is why they are not checkered. I have huge hands (I wear XXL gloves) and these stocks drastically improved my ability to shoot this gun. The gun has lots of scratches and bumps and dings. I carried it daily.

An agent had to qualify with their Five Shot and did so on regular qualification course that included a 25 yard stage. While the Five Shots were not easy to shoot, they were accurate. My worst score with my Five Shot was 92 percent. I shot many 100 percent scores, but I had had to work at it.

These guns filled a niche that is only starting to be addressed today-that of a small, highly concealable gun. The Five Shots could easily be carried in a coat pocket in your hand and surreptitiously pointed at a subject without anyone noticing, if need be. I did it several times and was able to cover my partner during a particularly tense encounter once. Most of the time these guns rode in ankle holsters, coat pockets and trouser pockets.

The Five Shot was not a gun you chose to go to war with. Rather, it supplemented your bigger gun(s). They were usually very reliable and hence were often carried when bigger guns couldn’t be used/concealed. It was nearly a decade after the Five Shot was taken off the POW list, that truly reliable small semiautomatic pistols (think S&W Shield) have been marketed. When I wrote this article in late 2017, the Bureau still had not authorized a truly small semiauto pistol that would fill the niche that the Five Shot occupied for so long. My understanding is the Glock 43 is now authorized for agents to carry.

Today, most think these are guns for more experienced shooters and I agree. They lack capacity, have relatively heavy trigger pulls and are hard to shoot. But the Five Shot fills a niche that is only now beginning to be filled. I stopped carrying my stainless Centennial on the last day of December 2004 and regretted not being able to do so for the remainder of the time I carried the FBI badge and creds. Great little guns.

I’ve been told they were withdrawn upon the retirement of the last revolver qualified armorer from the gun vault in Quantico.

Were ya’ll restricted to steel frame J’s ?

It’s successor, the G27 is also difficult to shoot well.

Your successors were recently authorized the Glock 43 and 43x for he BUG / off duty role.

[Det1397]

Many years ago, as a new cop, I attended a two day firearms course out at the old Pine Barrens/IRTC Range in Westhampton, hosted by Dean Speir and featuring Ken Hackathorn. While doing some inside work on fundamentals and the sort, Ken introduces us (me!) to a 642 he was caring as a bug in his front pocket. From that day on, I never looked back during my long LE career. Very rarely was I not armed with a 642 or a 342ti as my BUG for the remainder of my career, either in uniform, detective and plainclothes. Can't beat their simplicity and reliability, so long as you practice and maintain skill level and maintenance.

[WobblyPossum]

You guys are tempting me to ask my SFI if we have any of the steel framed, agency owned J Frames in the arms room.

[Bruce Cartwright]

That a very nice J frame. It has a lot of character and shows to have been used for its intended purpose.

In 04 did most agents swap to Glock 26/27 size guns or something else for back up and personal carry?

Camsdaddy:
A number of agents migrated towards the Glock 26 and 27. I'd say initially more favored the 27. As time wore on and the bullet technology improved, I believe there was a shift towards the 26. That said, while I had and carried a G27, I found it bigger than necessary and not optimal for my preferred pocket carry.
Bruce

[HCM]

You guys are tempting me to ask my SFI if we have any of the steel framed, agency owned J Frames in the arms room.

If you want one, do so sooner rather than later.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Thanks for sharing

Are any revolvers allowed?

03RN:
No revolvers were allowed for carry after December 31, 2004. We still had them in inventory but the authorization to carry them in performance of our duties was withdrawn. What was left in inventory were mainly used for demonstration and training purposes. Hope that clarifies things.
Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

I’ve been told they were withdrawn upon the retirement of the last revolver qualified armorer from the gun vault in Quantico.

Were ya’ll restricted to steel frame J’s ?

It’s successor, the G27 is also difficult to shoot well.

Your successors were recently authorized the Glock 43 and 43x for he BUG / off duty role.

HCM:
We were restricted to steel frame revolvers only. As I understand it, the J frames (and indeed all revolvers) were withdrawn from service because of the Bureau's desire to reduce expenses in keeping an inventory of parts on hand to repair an ever shrinking number of older guns. I knew most, if not all, of the gunsmiths at the Gun Vault at the time and there were a number of highly skilled gunsmiths that would have been able to maintain revolvers. As to the G27, you aren't kidding-they do have significant recoil. That said, I found the G23 harder to shoot than either the G27 or G22.
As to the G43 and G43X, I believe you are correct.
Bruce

[Nephrology]

HCM:
We were restricted to steel frame revolvers only. As I understand it, the J frames (and indeed all revolvers) were withdrawn from service because of the Bureau's desire to reduce expenses in keeping an inventory of parts on hand to repair an ever shrinking number of older guns. I knew most, if not all, of the gunsmiths at the Gun Vault at the time and there were a number of highly skilled gunsmiths that would have been able to maintain revolvers. As to the G27, you aren't kidding-they do have significant recoil. That said, I found the G23 harder to shoot than either the G27 or G22.
As to the G43 and G43X, I believe you are correct.
Bruce

The G23 is the only pistol I have ever sold with extreme prejudice, i.e., took very first offer at a lowball price, never looked back.

[gato naranja]

My personal choice was a Smith and Wesson Model 640 in 38 Special. This was one of the early "38" frame guns and a gift from my bride. The stocks were made by Craig Spegel in walnut.

That is the very revolver that was considered the best all-around representative of the genre EVER, according to those I knew who needed such a thing back in the day. Wish I had glommed onto a couple of them when the glomming was easy.

[Stephanie B]

The G23 is the only pistol I have ever sold with extreme prejudice, i.e., took very first offer at a lowball price, never looked back.

Agreed. I traded one for a Taurus 605.

[Nephrology]

Agreed. I traded one for a Taurus 605.

Sounds like you came out ahead on that one.

[Zeke38]

As long as we are bashing Glocks! When I retired in 03 my Agency offered my G23 to me as a retirement token. I gently and politely told my District Manager who made the offer, to keep it. Only free gun I ever turned down. To this day I don't own a Glock.

Thank you Mr. Cartwright for your telling of the "five shot". I think they kept S&Ws doors open for decades, a properly set up one is a treasure.

[HCM]

As long as we are bashing Glocks! When I retired in 03 my Agency offered my G23 to me as a retirement token. I gently and politely told my District Manager who made the offer, to keep it. Only free gun I ever turned down. To this day I don't own a Glock.

Bashing G23s doesn't equal bashing Glocks. A free G23 is a $99 conversion barrel away from being a cheap G19 which is whole other animal.

The strange thing is the G27 is slightly easier to shoot and significantly more reliable than the G23. The G23 is one of those concepts that briefed well but failed in practice.

[WobblyPossum]

If you want one, do so sooner rather than later.

Definitely something to consider. When they eventually pull the agency owned revolvers too, I can just requalify with my G26.

[Bucky]

HCM:
That said, I found the G23 harder to shoot than either the G27 or G22.


I’ve always felt the same, although it seems odd in theory. Your comments and others confirms I’m not alone in this opinion.

[BillSWPA]

Getting back to the original topic, I saw Colt only briefly mentioned. Did anyone carry Colt Detective Specials or other Colt steel-frame equivalents, or was Smith & Wesson a mostly universal preference?

[blues]

Getting back to the original topic, I saw Colt only briefly mentioned. Did anyone carry Colt Detective Specials or other Colt steel-frame equivalents, or was Smith & Wesson a mostly universal preference?

I don't remember any issued by my agencies, nor those I worked with.

[Dagga Boy]

Glad to see you posting on this Bruce. Thank you! This place will be better with Bruce here. He is one of the very few folks from the FBI I really like. Many of their gun guys are squared away and were usually disliked within their own agency, but also the few that get along well with outside agency folks and can play well with others.

[EDW]

I share Mr. Cartwright’s preference for the Spegel-stocked no-dash M640 as the best steel J-frame POW option. It sat lower in the pocket than the magnum M640-1, and its DA action was a little better than the Chief and Bodyguard alternatives. Mine gave me excellent service prior to the 2004 edict. It was of much greater day-to-day utility than any of the hi-speed long guns locked in the trunk of the Bucar.

The guns were typically shot once a year for qualification on the 50-round Double Action Course, and that was about it. The issue “Plus P Plus” Hydrashok 147s (of song and story) had difficulty making minor power factor--even out of a 4” barrel--and did not beat the guns apart, so they almost never required repair. I don’t think our office sent even one five-shot back to Quantico for repair during the five-year stretch I kept track. So the loss of gunsmith support as the reason for dropping already-approved POWs rang a little hollow.

And no other approved handgun, then or now, enabled the agent working alone to knock on an unfamiliar door ready to reliably deliver a sub-one second hit from the pocket, if necessary, without alienating the resident or the neighborhood whose cooperation he was attempting to enlist. If you needed to do a car meet with a particularly-sketchy Source, a J-frame under the thigh provided a combination of control, accessibility, and safety, which no other firearm option could match. Sadly, the loss of the J-frames left a hole that has not been filled by any of the small Glocks, even though they are excellent pistols.

[entropy]

This is destined to be yet another great thread. Thanks for the history and insight.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Getting back to the original topic, I saw Colt only briefly mentioned. Did anyone carry Colt Detective Specials or other Colt steel-frame equivalents, or was Smith & Wesson a mostly universal preference?

BillSWPA:

I never saw any Colt revolvers. They may have been on the Personally Owned Weapon ("POW") List but I never actually witnessed any. There were several updates to the POW list and as my time in the Bureau progressed, the list kept getting shorter. That said, as to Colts, I had the ultimate revolver accessory issued to me at one point: a 1928 U.S. Navy Overstamp Thompson Submachine gun. Somewhere, I have a copy of my personal inventory list with the Thompson on it.
Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Glad to see you posting on this Bruce. Thank you! This place will be better with Bruce here. He is one of the very few folks from the FBI I really like. Many of their gun guys are squared away and were usually disliked within their own agency, but also the few that get along well with outside agency folks and can play well with others.

Dagga Boy:
Thank you for the kind words. I means a lot. I remember when Uncle Pat introduced us. I miss him. I raised a tumbler of Macallan's to him the other day. Bruce53787

[Bruce Cartwright]

I share Mr. Cartwright’s preference for the Spegel-stocked no-dash M640 as the best steel J-frame POW option. It sat lower in the pocket than the magnum M640-1, and its DA action was a little better than the Chief and Bodyguard alternatives. Mine gave me excellent service prior to the 2004 edict. It was of much greater day-to-day utility than any of the hi-speed long guns locked in the trunk of the Bucar.

The guns were typically shot once a year for qualification on the 50-round Double Action Course, and that was about it. The issue “Plus P Plus” Hydrashok 147s (of song and story) had difficulty making minor power factor--even out of a 4” barrel--and did not beat the guns apart, so they almost never required repair. I don’t think our office sent even one five-shot back to Quantico for repair during the five-year stretch I kept track. So the loss of gunsmith support as the reason for dropping already-approved POWs rang a little hollow.

And no other approved handgun, then or now, enabled the agent working alone to knock on an unfamiliar door ready to reliably deliver a sub-one second hit from the pocket, if necessary, without alienating the resident or the neighborhood whose cooperation he was attempting to enlist. If you needed to do a car meet with a particularly-sketchy Source, a J-frame under the thigh provided a combination of control, accessibility, and safety, which no other firearm option could match. Sadly, the loss of the J-frames left a hole that has not been filled by any of the small Glocks, even though they are excellent pistols.

EDW:
Amen to all of that. I did exactly what you described on a brutally cold, snowy winter day in New England in a very sketchy situation. Having 5 rounds of 38 in my hand was a great comfort that day.
Bruce

[Dave J]

The guns were typically shot once a year for qualification on the 50-round Double Action Course, and that was about it.

Out of curiosity, could anyone provide the specifics of this course of fire?

[LtDave]

BillSWPA:

I never saw any Colt revolvers. They may have been on the Personally Owned Weapon ("POW") List but I never actually witnessed any. There were several updates to the POW list and as my time in the Bureau progressed, the list kept getting shorter. That said, as to Colts, I had the ultimate revolver accessory issued to me at one point: a 1928 U.S. Navy Overstamp Thompson Submachine gun. Somewhere, I have a copy of my personal inventory list with the Thompson on it.
Bruce

Colt revolvers were gone by the time I attended the FBI Academy in early 1986. It was my understanding that they were removed from the POW list once the last Colt armorer at the gun vault retired. My personal inventory included a 2" Model 60 and a 3" Model 66. Never saw a Thompson in my field office, although we did get to shoot one at Quantico.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Out of curiosity, could anyone provide the specifics of this course of fire?

Here it is from Bill Vanderpool's excellent book "Guns of the FBI: A History of the Bureau's Firearms and Training", page 286:

Double Action Course (DAC) - entire course is "fired using the Weaver Position"

5 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair

7 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
10 rounds: start loaded with six rounds, fire six, reload with four and fire that four in a total of 20 seconds

15 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds; fire all 4 in 6 seconds

25 yards - 5 rounds kneeling in 10 seconds; repeat for total of 10 rounds.

Two points per hit in "K5 or K4 area"; 100 points possible; 80 points to qualify

[Bruce Cartwright]

Colt revolvers were gone by the time I attended the FBI Academy in early 1986. It was my understanding that they were removed from the POW list once the last Colt armorer at the gun vault retired. My personal inventory included a 2" Model 60 and a 3" Model 66. Never saw a Thompson in my field office, although we did get to shoot one at Quantico.

LtDave:
Thanks for the education on the Colt revolvers. A friend of mine is a retired agent. He came on the Job in 1967. He was issued a Colt, didn't like the action and finagled a swap for an S&W.
Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Here it is from Bill Vanderpool's excellent book "Guns of the FBI: A History of the Bureau's Firearms and Training", page 286:

Double Action Course (DAC) - entire course is "fired using the Weaver Position"

5 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair

7 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
10 rounds: start loaded with six rounds, fire six, reload with four and fire that four in a total of 20 seconds

15 yards - 6 rounds fired in pairs, 3 seconds per pair
4 rounds; fire all 4 in 6 seconds

25 yards - 5 rounds kneeling in 10 seconds; repeat for total of 10 rounds.

Mr. Dobbs:
Thanks for providing the course of fire. I am glad you beat me to it and saved me the transcription time. I haven't looked at that CoF in a while, but in addition to using the Weaver stance, every string of fire started with the agent drawing the gun. There was no firing from "ready" if I recall correctly.
Bruce

Two points per hit in "K5 or K4 area"; 100 points possible; 80 points to qualify

[LtDave]

The course of fire I remember most was the old Tactical Revolver Course. You scored a 300 to become a member of the Possible Club. Info on the Possible Club and course of fire is here: https://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/fbi-history-of-the-possible-cl/

My first 300 shot with my issue Model 13.

53808

The second time I cleaned it was at a regular qualification at my field office with my 3” Model 66 Unfortunately, to become a club member you have to do it at a specific shoot. I didn’t shoot as good that day.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The course of fire I remember most was the old Tactical Revolver Course. You scored a 300 to become a member of the Possible Club. Info on the Possible Club and course of fire is here: https://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/fbi-history-of-the-possible-cl/

My first 300 shot with my issue Model 13.

53808

The second time I cleaned it was at a regular qualification at my field office with my 3” Model 66 Unfortunately, to become a club member you have to do it at a specific shoot. I didn’t shoot as good that day.

Shooting a possible on the TRC was an achievement for sure. Lots of 25 and 50 yard shooting on that one. My current quest is to shoot a perfect 400/400 on the LAPD Advanced Combat Course AKA the "Bonus Course", which is a butt kicker.

[EDW]

Regarding the Colt question, the 4” Colt Police Positive Special was standard issue for agents when they were first each permanently-assigned a handgun in 1933, supplanted by the 4" Official Police by the late Thirties. In October 1934, Melvin Purvis fired his Colt Detective Special at Pretty Boy Floyd and missed him with all six shots. [At 60 yards. I have long wondered why stage 2 of the original PPC started prone at 60, instead of 50. Perhaps it has its roots in this incident and the expression, “Don’t embarrass the Bureau!”]

The Colts started to fall out of favor when double-action shooting beyond 7 yards was implemented and became common in the Fifties. In the early Seventies, the Bureau adopted the 158 gr. LHP +P (St. Louis/Chicago/FBI load) as its new Service round and asked the manufacturers about using this ammunition in their guns. As I recall it from third-hand reports outside the Bureau, Colt initially equivocated before eventually giving a conditional yes. Unsatisfied, the Bureau decided to recall from the Field all the issue Colt .38 revolvers.

[Sadly, the 1934-circa Super .38s in my old office’s vault were sent back to Quantico with all the Colt revolvers in response to this edict. Either the PFI didn’t know what he was doing (“Hey Bob, it says Colt .38 right here on the slide of this old gun”), or he did (“Hey Bob, let’s slip in these old .38 autos so we don’t have to inventory them every year anymore”). I always wished I had had a chance to shoot them to see if they would stay on the Colt Silhouette at 60 yards. Somewhere I have read that some Colt specialists suggest that high-end pre-war Supers didn’t show the accuracy problems that plagued later specimens due to inconsistent head-spacing on the rim.]

A number of the Official Police revolvers were later returned to the Field as deactivated non-firing “red-handles” which were used as prop guns for training exercises. At the turn of the century we had one older agent in our office who still had a Colt Detective Special on his POW list. He must have gotten it approved a quarter-century prior, just before the recall. He didn’t qualify with it or carry it on duty to my knowledge. In the wake of the lost guns and laptops scandal of 2001, the Bureau got a little more religious about purging the POW lists of any guns that were not qualified with annually, and the old Colt officially vanished from the rolls for good late that year. That was the last operable Colt revolver I ever heard of in the Bureau outside the FBI Lab.

Oops -- I had forgotten that they had Hoover’s issue 1937 3” Colt Pocket Positive .32 with bobbed hammer in a display case at the Quantico Gun Vault a few years ago and it is probably still there. No obvious signs that it had been deactivated. I think these were very rare. The late Larry Wack’s Dusty Roads website shows Tolson owned a POW Colt PP .32, also dated 1937, and that Hoover owned a presentation model 2” nickel POW Colt PP.32 with bobbed hammer dated 1938. The internal inventory of original Buguns on hand when the War on Crime began, also set forth on that site, shows that there were two additional .32 caliber Colt revolvers located in the San Francisco office in 1933. Make of all that what you will. A relative of mine had long-standing good service from a Smith M31-1 in .32 Long, so I kind of like the 6-shot .32 caliber “Hoover Special.” I think we can conclude from the above that any small-frame six-shot .32 with either a 2” or 3” barrel can legitimately be termed a Hoover Special. I wouldn’t mind having a Smith M432 myself someday.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Regarding the Colt question, the 4” Colt Police Positive Special was standard issue for agents when they were first each permanently-assigned a handgun in 1933, supplanted by the 4" Official Police by the late Thirties. In October 1934, Melvin Purvis fired his Colt Detective Special at Pretty Boy Floyd and missed him with all six shots. [At 60 yards. I have long wondered why stage 2 of the original PPC started prone at 60, instead of 50. Perhaps it has its roots in this incident and the expression, “Don’t embarrass the Bureau!”]

The Colts started to fall out of favor when double-action shooting beyond 7 yards was implemented and became common in the Fifties. In the early Seventies, the Bureau adopted the 158 gr. LHP +P (St. Louis/Chicago/FBI load) as its new Service round and asked the manufacturers about using this ammunition in their guns. As I recall it from third-hand reports outside the Bureau, Colt initially equivocated before eventually giving a conditional yes. Unsatisfied, the Bureau decided to recall from the Field all the issue Colt .38 revolvers.

[Sadly, the 1934-circa Super .38s in my old office’s vault were sent back to Quantico with all the Colt revolvers in response to this edict. Either the PFI didn’t know what he was doing (“Hey Bob, it says Colt .38 right here on the slide of this old gun”), or he did (“Hey Bob, let’s slip in these old .38 autos so we don’t have to inventory them every year anymore”). I always wished I had had a chance to shoot them to see if they would stay on the Colt Silhouette at 60 yards. Somewhere I have read that some Colt specialists suggest that high-end pre-war Supers didn’t show the accuracy problems that plagued later specimens due to inconsistent head-spacing on the rim.]

A number of the Official Police revolvers were later returned to the Field as deactivated non-firing “red-handles” which were used as prop guns for training exercises. At the turn of the century we had one older agent in our office who still had a Colt Detective Special on his POW list. He must have gotten it approved a quarter-century prior, just before the recall. He didn’t qualify with it or carry it on duty to my knowledge. In the wake of the lost guns and laptops scandal of 2001, the Bureau got a little more religious about purging the POW lists of any guns that were not qualified with annually, and the old Colt officially vanished from the rolls for good late that year. That was the last operable Colt revolver I ever heard of in the Bureau outside the FBI Lab.

Oops -- I had forgotten that they had Hoover’s issue 1937 3” Colt Pocket Positive .32 with bobbed hammer in a display case at the Quantico Gun Vault a few years ago and it is probably still there. No obvious signs that it had been deactivated. I think these were very rare. The late Larry Wack’s Dusty Roads website shows Tolson owned a POW Colt PP .32, also dated 1937, and that Hoover owned a presentation model 2” nickel POW Colt PP.32 with bobbed hammer dated 1938. The internal inventory of original Buguns on hand when the War on Crime began, also set forth on that site, shows that there were two additional .32 caliber Colt revolvers located in the San Francisco office in 1933. Make of all that what you will. A relative of mine had long-standing good service from a Smith M31-1 in .32 Long, so I kind of like the 6-shot .32 caliber “Hoover Special.” I think we can conclude from the above that any small-frame six-shot .32 with either a 2” or 3” barrel can legitimately be termed a Hoover Special. I wouldn’t mind having a Smith M432 myself someday.

EDW:
Thank you for updating us on the FBI/Colt revolver history. Col. Jeff Cooper opined that we should memorialize via written word anything we find significant. So much of our history is being lost to the ages because we don't commit it to paper. I am sure you heard the old Bureau adage: If it isn't on paper, it didn't occur". That applies here. Your contribution is much appreciated.
As to the 38 Super Colts, I observed one in the Gun Vault in our Washington DC field office. It had been rendered inoperable and turned into a "red handle". When I first saw it, I damn near cried. I did put that gun to good use-my son learned how to field strip a 1911 using it.
As to Mr. Hoover's Colt, it was still hanging on the wall in the Gun Vault when I last visited in 2016.
Bruce

[spinmove_]

I don’t mean to derail the thread to hard with this question, but I also didn’t figure it warranted it’s own thread. If it does, please feel free to split it.

Just out of curiosity, why is it here in the US revolvers were the prevailing sidearm of choice whereas throughout Europe it seems semi-auto pistols were the prevailing style of sidearm? I get that the 1911 was expensive to produce, but surely there were other options?

[1Rangemaster]

I don’t mean to derail the thread to hard with this question, but I also didn’t figure it warranted it’s own thread. If it does, please feel free to split it.

Just out of curiosity, why is it here in the US revolvers were the prevailing sidearm of choice whereas throughout Europe it seems semi-auto pistols were the prevailing style of sidearm? I get that the 1911 was expensive to produce, but surely there were other options?

An interesting question-several factors and ways to look at this. To the contrary, the Brits(many of whom would be offended at being viewed as “European”) used revolvers,e.g., Webleys, through WW2. The Russians had the 1895 Nagant. On the Euro continent, semi autos become popular beginning with the 1896 Mauser through the Borchardt/Luger, etc. JMO, but I think part of the reason the semiautomatic became more popular is that it was more efficient and smokeless powder was up and coming. Lighter projectiles at higher velocities began to be rapidly accepted from rifle calibers on down to handguns. The military influenced law enforcement equipment in Europe. All sorts of makers made pistols-Mauser, Walther, Sauer, etc.
In the USA, revolvers utilized black powder-.45 Colt-and transitioned to smokeless as that technology developed. Recall that T Roosevelt was first a NYC Police commissioner, and issued revolvers. That probably had some influence, and revolvers were simpler to live with. There were individual exceptions in the early 20th century in American LE: some Texas Rangers carried 1911s. Some big city cops carried autos when allowed. But after the Kansas City massacre, Hoover wanted some gunmen, and men like “Jelly” Bryce came onboard and were revolver men. Other officers/agents like Jordan and Askins were issued/shot revolvers and wrote about them, further influencing US LE. The US military had decided on a semiauto after a dubious flirtation with a .38 revolver. Cops stuck with the revolvers ; if things got serious, shotguns, Thompsons and rifles were all broken out.
US LE agencies did not move to the semiautomatics organizationally until the 70s and 80s. I’m not sure why the Illinois State Police adopted a S&W auto, but they did and it was news. Officers thought they needed “firepower” in their sidearms, and it was off to the races...

[EDW]

EDW:
Thank you for updating us on the FBI/Colt revolver history. Col. Jeff Cooper opined that we should memorialize via written word anything we find significant. So much of our history is being lost to the ages because we don't commit it to paper. I am sure you heard the old Bureau adage: If it isn't on paper, it didn't occur". That applies here. Your contribution is much appreciated.
As to the 38 Super Colts, I observed one in the Gun Vault in our Washington DC field office. It had been rendered inoperable and turned into a "red handle". When I first saw it, I damn near cried. I did put that gun to good use-my son learned how to field strip a 1911 using it.
As to Mr. Hoover's Colt, it was still hanging on the wall in the Gun Vault when I last visited in 2016.
Bruce

Bruce,
Thank you. Glad to contribute what I can to a good thread.

By any chance do you recall if that redhandle was inscribed “Super Match” or something similar, or if it had high-visibility adjustable sights? Most of the pictures I have seen of the Supers appear to show standard commercial Colts with the small fixed sights, such as the photo on p. 15 of Vanderpool’s book. I have been trying to pin down if any of them might have been the Nat’l Match upgraded versions.

I cringe when I think of what the future holds for all the remaining heirlooms of LEO history spread throughout the field office vaults. We don’t know our own history, so things get destroyed all the time just because people don’t appreciate what they have. When I first showed up in my old office they were throwing out the old custom “Kansas City Trunk Co” cases from 1935 built to discretely transport in public a broken-down Thompson, its loaded mags and spare parts. They had gotten separated from the Tommyguns in the vault some years before, and nobody knew what they were anymore. We got them reunited and they make a wonderful pairing. The collector value of these cases, if they could be sold, might be as much as five figures – but their heirloom value to us should be equally significant. However, someday the same thing will happen all over again and that will be that.

I can embrace the idea that what will be, will be -- I just don’t want to know about it when it eventually happens.

[spinmove_]

An interesting question-several factors and ways to look at this. To the contrary, the Brits(many of whom would be offended at being viewed as “European”) used revolvers,e.g., Webleys, through WW2. The Russians had the 1895 Nagant. On the Euro continent, semi autos become popular beginning with the 1896 Mauser through the Borchardt/Luger, etc. JMO, but I think part of the reason the semiautomatic became more popular is that it was more efficient and smokeless powder was up and coming. Lighter projectiles at higher velocities began to be rapidly accepted from rifle calibers on down to handguns. The military influenced law enforcement equipment in Europe. All sorts of makers made pistols-Mauser, Walther, Sauer, etc.
In the USA, revolvers utilized black powder-.45 Colt-and transitioned to smokeless as that technology developed. Recall that T Roosevelt was first a NYC Police commissioner, and issued revolvers. That probably had some influence, and revolvers were simpler to live with. There were individual exceptions in the early 20th century in American LE: some Texas Rangers carried 1911s. Some big city cops carried autos when allowed. But after the Kansas City massacre, Hoover wanted some gunmen, and men like “Jelly” Bryce came onboard and were revolver men. Other officers/agents like Jordan and Askins were issued/shot revolvers and wrote about them, further influencing US LE. The US military had decided on a semiauto after a dubious flirtation with a .38 revolver. Cops stuck with the revolvers ; if things got serious, shotguns, Thompsons and rifles were all broken out.
US LE agencies did not move to the semiautomatics organizationally until the 70s and 80s. I’m not sure why the Illinois State Police adopted a S&W auto, but they did and it was news. Officers thought they needed “firepower” in their sidearms, and it was off to the races...

So a strong cultural influence then. Makes sense. Did cost of manufacturing and/or ease of maintenance figure into any of that at all?

[1Rangemaster]

So a strong cultural influence then. Makes sense. Did cost of manufacturing and/or ease of maintenance figure into any of that at all?

I don’t have much data on actual costs/overhead, etc. In a general reading of history, to paraphrase Jeff Cooper: “the past was a different country”. There were, AFAIK, no unions initially. The Europeans may have had some sort of guild arrangement, but I haven’t read of any in firearms manufacturers. Eli Whitney inspired parts interchangeability, but it seems that mfgs. made parts, then gave them to workmen/gunsmiths(especially with handguns) who “fit” parts together.
I don’t recall the first cost of the 1911, but I’m sure it was less than $100 to the military. In my view, it was pretty “Glock like” in that it had pretty successful parts interchangeability, and even used some of its own parts in disassembly.
You may be on to something with maintenance; given a supply of near identical parts, semis are probably less expensive to maintain over time.

[11B10]

This is destined to be yet another great thread. Thanks for the history and insight.



Agreed....yet another thread from P-F providing the knowledge and experience of real life experts directly to the masses, of which I am a grateful member. The word "selfless" always comes to mind.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Bruce,
Thank you. Glad to contribute what I can to a good thread.

By any chance do you recall if that redhandle was inscribed “Super Match” or something similar, or if it had high-visibility adjustable sights? Most of the pictures I have seen of the Supers appear to show standard commercial Colts with the small fixed sights, such as the photo on p. 15 of Vanderpool’s book. I have been trying to pin down if any of them might have been the Nat’l Match upgraded versions.

I cringe when I think of what the future holds for all the remaining heirlooms of LEO history spread throughout the field office vaults. We don’t know our own history, so things get destroyed all the time just because people don’t appreciate what they have. When I first showed up in my old office they were throwing out the old custom “Kansas City Trunk Co” cases from 1935 built to discretely transport in public a broken-down Thompson, its loaded mags and spare parts. They had gotten separated from the Tommyguns in the vault some years before, and nobody knew what they were anymore. We got them reunited and they make a wonderful pairing. The collector value of these cases, if they could be sold, might be as much as five figures – but their heirloom value to us should be equally significant. However, someday the same thing will happen all over again and that will be that.

I can embrace the idea that what will be, will be -- I just don’t want to know about it when it eventually happens.

EDW:
The 38 Super I observed did not have the Super Match roll marks. If I recall correctly it had commercial roll marks. It also had standard sights similar to Colt production through the 1970s.
As to the destruction of history, I couldn't agree more. There was a "cleansing" of stuff in the Quantico Gun Vault (occurred when I was stationed in DC) that would probably drive most collectors to drink. I am drafting a post about a revolver (5 inch N frame) I was issued that is highly collectible. As far as I can tell no one in the office had any idea what it was. Same thing with the Thompson cases. I was issued a Colt 1928 US Navy Overstamp Thompson in a period correct case. When I first saw it, the agent who transferred it to me couldn't believe I was speechless. For most of our folks, it was just another gun that had to be secured and inventoried. Most of our folks are good people, but are unaware of our history.
Wish I could have been more help with the Super 38 question. Stay safe,
Bruce

[deputyG23]

I don’t have much data on actual costs/overhead, etc. In a general reading of history, to paraphrase Jeff Cooper: “the past was a different country”. There were, AFAIK, no unions initially. The Europeans may have had some sort of guild arrangement, but I haven’t read of any in firearms manufacturers. Eli Whitney inspired parts interchangeability, but it seems that mfgs. made parts, then gave them to workmen/gunsmiths(especially with handguns) who “fit” parts together.
I don’t recall the first cost of the 1911, but I’m sure it was less than $100 to the military. In my view, it was pretty “Glock like” in that it had pretty successful parts interchangeability, and even used some of its own parts in disassembly.
You may be on to something with maintenance; given a supply of near identical parts, semis are probably less expensive to maintain over time.
When I was a child, I was given a 1944 Gun Digest which had the 1911 Colt Government Model .45 listed at $44.75.

[spinmove_]

When I was a child, I was given a 1944 Gun Digest which had the 1911 Colt Government Model .45 listed at $44.75.

That’s about $652 in 2020’s money. That’s less than what I would have expected it to cost back then.

[deputyG23]

That’s about $652 in 2020’s money. That’s less than what I would have expected it to cost back then.

Considering that no 1911s were sold commercially in ‘44, that is probably the last prices Colt put out in ‘41 or possibly early ‘42.
Trying to find out what Uncle Sam paid for each one during the war years.

[1Rangemaster]

We’ve kinda hijacked Mr. Cartwright’s thread, so I’ll leave with this:
Cursory internet search for old Colt ads show a “National Match” Colt 1911 circa 1930s with a price of $45(!). Guesstimating that guns to military would be 1/2 or a little more...

[EDW]

Steering back toward the topic of five-shots –

Just after the turn of the century the Bureau put together a draft new qualification course that combined elements of the DAC and the original PQC with the idea of having a single qual course for both revolvers and autos, which they initially dubbed the Handgun Qualification Course. It took a decade to make this litigation-resistant enough for deployment, and by then the revolvers had dropped out, so after a lot of vigorous discussion and some tweaking it ended up as the revised “PQC” of 2012.

It is possible, but not easy, to clean the PQC’12 with a K-frame. The hump to get over is eight rounds in eight seconds at the 7-yard line from concealment starting with hands together in front of the torso.

With a five-shot it is effectively impossible to clean the course, as you can’t avoid eating a round at the 3-yard line. Also, with the J-frame I have never been able to finish the reload in time at the 7 (using either the HKS or the Safariland Comp I loaders) mainly because of the short ejector rods on the 2” guns. However, even if you eat these additional three rounds at the 7, you only need 48 hits out of 60 to pass, meaning you can miss an additional EIGHT ROUNDS and still “qualify” on the course with a J-frame.

As we get further away from the revolver era, the convivial notion of having one course that can cover both types of handguns is receding. The PQC revisions that went into effect in 2019 now require 40 hits out of 50 rounds, but if you don’t make the reload at 7, with the five-shot you now eat three rounds there, plus one at 3 yards, one at 5, and usually three more at the 25, for a total of eight rounds, leaving a margin of only two additional misses to still “pass.” Not quite so easy anymore.

Because I can’t do it, I am intent on eventually cleaning the 7-yard reload stage of the PQC’12/’19. I refer to it as the Brick Agent Challenge, given that almost any agent who shot someone with a wheelgun these days would be facing some serious brick time. In practice, after the reload and the last three shots I transition to sight on the head of the target, to remind myself to be precise if I were ever to need the last two rounds.

Recently, I finally got around to ordering from Pistoleer some of the Jet-Loader-brand speedloaders for the J-frame. To my surprise I find that these things--in stock form--load as slick as Bubbarized Comp IIIs in a K-frame. I think these will save me enough time eventually to get down under eight seconds. If not, I may have to ditch the belt holster and resort to the subterfuge of starting with the pocketed revolver in hand, which should save another .75 seconds or so.

Once over this hump I’ll start working on the new 25-yard stage by shooting four standing, and then attempting to reload five while moving to kneeling to shoot four more under the new twenty-second time limit. Cleaning the 7 and the 25 would result in a possible 48/50 on the PQC’19. Anyone who can shoot a 48 on this course with a five-shot is pretty good. Someday I would like to be pretty good.

[P.S., if anybody tries any of this, let’s stipulate that the speedloader must be concealed -- no staging the loader in your teeth, tempting though it may be.]

[P.P.S., I'd post links to the 2012 and 2019 versions of the PQC if I were tech savvy, but I'm not there yet. Maybe someone else could do the honors? If so, thanks!]

[03RN]

It is possible, but not easy, to clean the PQC’12 with a K-frame. The hump to get over is eight rounds in eight seconds at the 7-yard line from concealment starting with hands together in front of the torso.

[P.S., if anybody tries any of this, let’s stipulate that the speedloader must be concealed -- no staging the loader in your teeth, tempting though it may be.]


Shucks, could have tried that yesterday. I think its doable.

[Stephanie B]

I refer to it as the Brick Agent Challenge, given that almost any agent who shot someone with a wheelgun these days would be facing some serious brick time.

Is that like getting a rip?

[LtDave]

Is that like getting a rip?

Spending time on the bricks is bureau-speak for a suspension without pay.

For example, the penalty for misuse of a government vehicle was a mandatory 30 days on the bricks.

[TC215]

Spending time on the bricks is bureau-speak for a suspension without pay.

For example, the penalty for misuse of a government vehicle was a mandatory 30 days on the bricks.

Ditching a flash bang in an airport trash can because you forgot you had one in your carry-on bag and didn’t want to walk back to your car will also get you a few days on the beach.

Allegedly.

[blues]

Glad I never did stuff like that...





;)

[Screwball]

We had a trainee that was down at FLETC... sent back here for a hurricane. Got to the airport, and couldn’t put his gun belt (with red gun) in his checked bag, nor the carry-on. Solution? Put it on and walk through TSA under his raincoat.

TSA took it, gave it back to FLETC... and the guy was given it back in front of his classmates with an explanation of what occurred. After that, he was let go.

[HCM]

Steering back toward the topic of five-shots –

Just after the turn of the century the Bureau put together a draft new qualification course that combined elements of the DAC and the original PQC with the idea of having a single qual course for both revolvers and autos, which they initially dubbed the Handgun Qualification Course. It took a decade to make this litigation-resistant enough for deployment, and by then the revolvers had dropped out, so after a lot of vigorous discussion and some tweaking it ended up as the revised “PQC” of 2012.

It is possible, but not easy, to clean the PQC’12 with a K-frame. The hump to get over is eight rounds in eight seconds at the 7-yard line from concealment starting with hands together in front of the torso.

With a five-shot it is effectively impossible to clean the course, as you can’t avoid eating a round at the 3-yard line. Also, with the J-frame I have never been able to finish the reload in time at the 7 (using either the HKS or the Safariland Comp I loaders) mainly because of the short ejector rods on the 2” guns. However, even if you eat these additional three rounds at the 7, you only need 48 hits out of 60 to pass, meaning you can miss an additional EIGHT ROUNDS and still “qualify” on the course with a J-frame.

As we get further away from the revolver era, the convivial notion of having one course that can cover both types of handguns is receding. The PQC revisions that went into effect in 2019 now require 40 hits out of 50 rounds, but if you don’t make the reload at 7, with the five-shot you now eat three rounds there, plus one at 3 yards, one at 5, and usually three more at the 25, for a total of eight rounds, leaving a margin of only two additional misses to still “pass.” Not quite so easy anymore.

Because I can’t do it, I am intent on eventually cleaning the 7-yard reload stage of the PQC’12/’19. I refer to it as the Brick Agent Challenge, given that almost any agent who shot someone with a wheelgun these days would be facing some serious brick time. In practice, after the reload and the last three shots I transition to sight on the head of the target, to remind myself to be precise if I were ever to need the last two rounds.

Recently, I finally got around to ordering from Pistoleer some of the Jet-Loader-brand speedloaders for the J-frame. To my surprise I find that these things--in stock form--load as slick as Bubbarized Comp IIIs in a K-frame. I think these will save me enough time eventually to get down under eight seconds. If not, I may have to ditch the belt holster and resort to the subterfuge of starting with the pocketed revolver in hand, which should save another .75 seconds or so.

Once over this hump I’ll start working on the new 25-yard stage by shooting four standing, and then attempting to reload five while moving to kneeling to shoot four more under the new twenty-second time limit. Cleaning the 7 and the 25 would result in a possible 48/50 on the PQC’19. Anyone who can shoot a 48 on this course with a five-shot is pretty good. Someday I would like to be pretty good.

[P.S., if anybody tries any of this, let’s stipulate that the speedloader must be concealed -- no staging the loader in your teeth, tempting though it may be.]

[P.P.S., I'd post links to the 2012 and 2019 versions of the PQC if I were tech savvy, but I'm not there yet. Maybe someone else could do the honors? If so, thanks!]

2019 50 Round PQC - https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-new-fbi-qualification-course



-3 yards Draw and fire 3 rds strong hand only, switch hands and fire 3 rds support hand only, all in 6 seconds



-5 yards Draw and fire 3 rds in 3 seconds
-From the Ready, fire 3 rds in 2 seconds
-From the Ready, fire 6 rds in 4 seconds



-7 yards Draw and fire 5 rds in 5 seconds
-From the Ready, fire 4 rounds, conduct an empty gun reload, and fire 4 more rds, all in 8 seconds
-From the Ready, fire 5 rounds in 4 seconds



-15 yards Draw and fire 3 rds in 6 seconds
-From the Ready, fire 3 rds in 5 seconds



-25 yards Draw and fire 4 rds from Standing, drop to a Kneeling Position and fire 4 more rds from Kneeling, all in 20 seconds.



50 rounds total 100 points possible 90 or above is a pass for instructors.



For the 2019/50 round version there are two common magazine load outs: 3x12, 1x14 or 4x9 with 14 loose rounds in the pocket, before the start of the 7 yard line stage, reload two mag 1x6 and 1x8. Use the 6 rounder first.

2014 60 round PQC https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/shooting-drill-fbi-qualification-test


From Three Yards (12 rounds fired):

– 3 shots in 3 seconds, strong hand only

– repeat above for 3 more rounds

– 3 rounds strong hand only, switch hands, 3 rounds weak hand only in a total of 8 seconds


From Five Yards (12 rounds fired) (all shooting at this stage and during each subsequent stage is performed with both hands):

– 3 rounds in 3 seconds

– repeat 3 more times for a total of 12 rounds fired


From Seven Yards (16 rounds fired):

– 4 rounds in 4 seconds

– repeat above for 4 more rounds

– 4 rounds, reload, then fire 4 more rounds all completed in 8 seconds



From 15 yards (10 rounds fired):

– 3 rounds in 6 seconds

– repeat above for 3 more rounds

– 4 rounds in 8 seconds


From 25 Yards: (10 rounds fired) (This stage requires the use of a barricade. I use a cardboard target for simplicity and ease of carry):


– Move up to the cover and fire 2 rounds standing and then 3 rounds kneeling, all under 15 seconds.

– Repeat above

[Stephanie B]

We had a trainee that was down at FLETC... sent back here for a hurricane. Got to the airport, and couldn’t put his gun belt (with red gun) in his checked bag, nor the carry-on. Solution? Put it on and walk through TSA under his raincoat.

Why was he walking around with a red gun?

[entropy]

Sometimes, folks do things that make you stop dead in your tracks, scratch your head, and ponder the universe...

[Screwball]

Why was he walking around with a red gun?

Because he was stupid and didn’t leave it at FLETC... and since he was at the airport... that was all he could think of.

Wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Stephanie B]

Because he was stupid and didn’t leave it at FLETC... and since he was at the airport... that was all he could think of.

Wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.

I got that, but in general, why was he walking around with a red gun at FLETC? Is that some sort of "this is what it's like to wear a gun" thing?

Which reminds me of a story from when I was in Missouri: The local community college had a police academy program. It was kind of a shitty deal, because the kids went there, paid tuition and for that, got a shot at hiring on to a small-town department for $12/hr. Anyhoo, I was at Panera having lunch with some friends when four of the kids came in, wearing their school uniforms and holstered blue Glocks. I started chuckling. When one of my lunchmates asked why, I said it was dead-nuts certain that there were more real guns in the place than those fake ones.

[HCM]

I got that, but in general, why was he walking around with a red gun at FLETC? Is that some sort of "this is what it's like to wear a gun" thing?


Yes, exactly that. It’s pretty standard in LE training programs.

Part of it is getting used to wearing gear all day, part of it is that the red/blue guns are to be treated as live guns. Silly as it seems, it’s an opportunity to cull those who can’t follow simple directions like this.

FLETC is closed campus located on former naval air station. It operates as a closed campus. More-so than most military bases do now a-days.

[1Rangemaster]

FWIW, I’ve seen “red”(nonfiring)Glocks and blue pieces of plastic shaped like a pistol in cadet holsters at state and city levels. I believe the Bureau and DEA use them with agents-in-training. Blue paint pellet Glocks(“17T”) are also used in FoF.
My understanding is that cadets are instructed to treat them as real-disciplined if they are “played”/horsed around with.
Makes some sense for safe dry firing, etc. I remember a few years back after my youngest daughter returned from GUNSITE: she was a HS senior and several boys were in awe that she had shot a real pistol. These comments from boys who were from middle class families most of whom could be considered “conservative”(she graduated from a private Christian school). One boy stated he had shot a pellet gun, another played a lot of video games. She said she preferred “her” G19 as it was the real thing(!)She carries it or a 43 to this day.
It’s been mildly surprising to me how few people in urban/suburban locales actually train/practice(see Karl Rehn). Here at PF we enjoy a competent but pretty small community. Most folks have no or negative exposure to firearms, hence the “training non guns”. Give ‘em a little handling before live ammo...

[1Rangemaster]

And thanks HCM for the post. I tried to google FBI pistol qual, and got some weird google message. Might have woke somebody up at NSA...

[David S.]

Shooting a possible on the TRC was an achievement for sure. Lots of 25 and 50 yard shooting on that one. My current quest is to shoot a perfect 400/400 on the LAPD Advanced Combat Course AKA the "Bonus Course", which is a butt kicker.

Wayne,

Would you mind posting the course of fire for the LAPD Bonus Course? And if necessary, details on how one might adapt it to a normal range like DPC. I can't seem to find the details.

[SCCY Marshal]

Wayne,

Would you mind posting the course of fire for the LAPD Bonus Course? And if necessary, details on how one might adapt it to a normal range like DPC. I can't seem to find the details.

The .pdf in this link includes the Bonus qualification course of fire and the BT-5 target is readily available from several online vendors:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjinbLQ94vrAhUCCM0KHaLkDRsQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2nzQItfPGKP-xaMbVjXqe4

Here's a video of the course being fired:

https://youtu.be/x2z4jHa5-ug

It may be worth noting that the 10 ring is about the same size if a different shape than that on a B-27. And L.A.P.D. has it's own BT-5 variant with a somewhat generous full value headbox. The standard BT-5 lacks that.

[Stephanie B]

The .pdf in this link includes the Bonus qualification course of fire and the BT-5 target is readily available from several online vendors:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjinbLQ94vrAhUCCM0KHaLkDRsQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2nzQItfPGKP-xaMbVjXqe4

404 on that link.

[SCCY Marshal]

Might have helped if I'd deleted the rest of the reference gibberish at the tail after the head. Which I'd have noticed had I spent the five seconds checking my work with a clickthrough. Whoops!

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf

[Half Moon]

Might have helped if I'd deleted the rest of the reference gibberish at the tail after the head. Which I'd have noticed had I spent the five seconds checking my work with a clickthrough. Whoops!

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf

Skimming all 4 sections now, really nice resource!