Grip Insert/Back Strap Size and Performance or: How does a novice choose?

[guymontag]

Hat Tip:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?880-Proper-grip-insert-fitting-is-there-such-a-thing
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4011-M-amp-P-grip-size

Background: I'm small handed, small wristed novice; hand span is 8", wrist circumference is 6.5".

I practice with a Walther P99, which offers interchangeable backstraps. However, I purchased the pistol used, and it came with only one insert - the small. 2,500 rounds later, I thought to acquire the spare sizes to discern any potential performance difference. But how is this measured?

With the small, medium, or large insert installed, I can still reach the (ambidextrous) magazine release, and my thumb can still reach the slide stop/release (although with the large insert I can only reach the rearmost third of the stop/release). I can manipulate the trigger to the rear with no sight disruption with any of the three options. "Pointability" tends to be a wash with inconsistent results... and my body will usually catch on after the second or third presentation with the same insert.

I went to the range today to test any rapid fire differences between the back straps. I varied the order and arrangement within each test.
(Bill Drill = S x 2, M x 2, L x 3, M x 1, S x 1; 3X5 = M x 1, L x 1, S x 1, repeat; 2" = M x 1, S x 1, L x 1)

Bill Drill (low, extended ready)
Target 1 (http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k492/chicomartinez28/bscp4.jpg)
Times reflect only split times, reaction time is not included.

4 on a 3X5 @ 7Y (low, extended ready)
Target 2 (http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k492/chicomartinez28/bscp3.jpg)
Times reflect only split times, reaction time is not included.

4 on a 2" @ 5Y (low, extended ready)
Target 3 (http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k492/chicomartinez28/bscp2.jpg)
Times reflect only split times, reaction time is not included.

Accuracy - 2" @ 7Y
Target 4 (http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k492/chicomartinez28/bscp1.jpg)

Interpretation?

I've calculated averages, medians, ersatz hit factors of one point per hit...

GoogleDoc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvtpMXr_kq-zdC1qaWxMSXJvVFE0QXY1TjFiOGVxRHc)

Performance appeared to favor large, then medium, then small - and subjectively I agree. Recoil, flip, and sight tracking seemed easier. However I wanted to inquire in to the minds of pistol-forum of other considerations I should... consider.

1. How far can I interpret the hits on the targets? (vertical/horizontal stringing, spread)
The large and medium appear to have tighter groups, more center line, except for the accuracy target. I didn't know if someone could read in to it further?

2. I should likely test one hand only shooting, yes?
The medium grip may be better for one hand shooting over the large grip or vice versa?

3. 25 yard accuracy testing?
I ran out of time at the range, but do you think B-8's at 25 yards test grip shape/size as much as trigger pull/stance/hold?

4. Should I consider the draw stroke?
Do you think the grip size plays a significant role with indexing the hand on the weapon, press outs or punch outs? Or do you think you train to that?

5. Have I missed the elephant in the room?

Any help or insight is appreciated!

[roadsiderob]

I've wondered the same thing since I got my PPQ. My testing was limited to deciding which insert allowed the pistol to point most naturally and get the best grip coming out of the holster. I chose the small backstrap as it feels the best to me and points most naturally without canting left or right. This also works out well in that my wife has small hands and would probably require the small backstrap if she were to shoot this pistol

[JHC]

Seems like a very well planned out evaluation. Kudo's. All I can say is that my experience with adjustable grips is limited to 2400 rds of eval with an M&P Pro 9 and a couple tens of thousands of rounds with Gen 4 Glocks. I have a hand span of 9" FWIW. But I found with both platforms the larger grips to perform best as I could still reach all the controls at speed. I seem to recall DocGKR posting that in general the largest grip with which you can still work all the controls smoothly/quickly is usually the best performing. My apologies if I am mis-characterizing him on this.

I think there are some general leverage reasons for this. When a grip is too small for my hand's reach I sense a decrease in control. On the Gen 4 G26 review I posted here I was struck by this when shooting the Gen 3 G26 back to back with the Gen 4 G26 - with no grip inserts - on FAST drills. Gen 3 looked to my eyes on the front sight to be controlled better; and my scores with the Gen 3 were better.


I generally do not keep the large grip insert on the Gen 4s as they usually chew up my hands pretty good when I do. I've done most of my best work with the Gen 3 or Gen 4 with medium grip insert which mimics the Gen 3 dimensions without shedding blood. (btw I did try the GFA for awhile and it was swell and all. I couldn't measure improvements and gave it to another shooter who really loves them. I may try one again.)

Also IMO how a grip "feels" is not so important. How it "fits" is and this is what you will be measuring.

[JHC]

Hat Tip:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?880-Proper-grip-insert-fitting-is-there-such-a-thing
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4011-M-amp-P-grip-size

Background: I'm small handed, small wristed novice; hand span is 8", wrist circumference is 6.5".


3. 25 yard accuracy testing?
I ran out of time at the range, but do you think B-8's at 25 yards test grip shape/size as much as trigger pull/stance/hold?

4. Should I consider the draw stroke?
Do you think the grip size plays a significant role with indexing the hand on the weapon, press outs or punch outs? Or do you think you train to that?

5. Have I missed the elephant in the room?

Any help or insight is appreciated!

I think the whole test set up is sound and I particularly think including 3 and 4 are worthwile. I have and have found on test #3 its especially hard to draw firm conclusions as other performance factors on any given day may have a greater influence than the grip option but I still do it and think you should too.

#4 is one that I especially think has pointed favorably towards the largest grip option with which you can still manage the controls; from a perception standpoint and scores.

[YVK]

#1 - don't see anything particular in targets.

#2 - wouldn't do one-handed, unless it is more important to you then two handed, or everything else is being equal.

#3 - wouldn't do 25 yards either; it doesn't really test anything other than trigger control and sight picture/alignment.

#4 - draw, yes. I did some weird testing and thinking after I considered everything that was discussed in the first thread that you linked to. Turned out that most of the important stuff - pressing trigger straight back, reach to controls etc was a wash between two grip variations (P30) for me. Splits etc were hard to analyze because of potential variability of my own performance; the sample size should've been a lot larger than I cared for. The current combo won on two nebulous parameters - "natural pointability" and trigger finger position at/after trigger break.

As a side note, this is the first time that I have experienced what has been said many times on this board - what feels well in hand doesn't necessarily perform the best. I "ruled out" large backstrap on P30 the very first time I tried it. Now I am really glad I had enough critical thinking to put it back and try it without prejudice.

[guymontag]

I've wondered the same thing since I got my PPQ. My testing was limited to deciding which insert allowed the pistol to point most naturally and get the best grip coming out of the holster.

Coincidentally, various reports on the PPQ's recoil/flip were part of what prompted my question. ;)


Seems like a very well planned out evaluation. Kudo's. All I can say is that my experience with adjustable grips is limited to 2400 rds of eval with an M&P Pro 9 and a couple tens of thousands of rounds with Gen 4 Glocks. I have a hand span of 9" FWIW. But I found with both platforms the larger grips to perform best as I could still reach all the controls at speed. I seem to recall DocGKR posting that in general the largest grip with which you can still work all the controls smoothly/quickly is usually the best performing. My apologies if I am mis-characterizing him on this.

I think there are some general leverage reasons for this. When a grip is too small for my hand's reach I sense a decrease in control. On the Gen 4 G26 review I posted here I was struck by this when shooting the Gen 3 G26 back to back with the Gen 4 G26 - with no grip inserts - on FAST drills. Gen 3 looked to my eyes on the front sight to be controlled better; and my scores with the Gen 3 were better.

Thanks for the kind words JHC, and for describing your experience. I think your comment on the larger grips performing best and DocGKR's supposed thoughts are the answer, as they appear to mirror my initial, though limited, findings. A few FASTs will occur as another means to measure the extent of it.


Also IMO how a grip "feels" is not so important. How it "fits" is and this is what you will be measuring.

I think this is the perfect way to describe it.



As a side note, this is the first time that I have experienced what has been said many times on this board - what feels well in hand doesn't necessarily perform the best. I "ruled out" large backstrap on P30 the very first time I tried it. Now I am really glad I had enough critical thinking to put it back and try it without prejudice.

Thank you for sharing your objective analysis; I initially did not like the large insert for the P99 (based on aesthetics and comfort), but it may actually prove the best option.


As to further testing, JHC and YVK mentioned a concern that arose after my first post - potential variability and performance factors. I think more live fire data necessary to establish anything conclusive. Dry practice indicates my draw is not substantially affected by the change of the backstrap (medium or large), reloads are not substantially affected... however with the large insert, my trigger presses tend to end more consistently. I'll likely test all of it live in time.

I ran the medium backstrap in its first match on Sunday and did quite well, for myself anyway.

[JHC]

however with the large insert, my trigger presses tend to end more consistently. I'll likely test all of it live in time.

I ran the medium backstrap in its first match on Sunday and did quite well, for myself anyway.

This. And that's why I thought your 25 yard precision was worth at least trying; because 25 yards is so unforgiving of trigger press errors. But as noted by YVK and my own hedging it could turn out inconclusive.

[Cincinnatus]

Necro thread resurrection here, but had a pertinent question.

Been experimenting with the VP9 and various backstrap/side-panel combinations for grip inserts.

What grip inserts are people running successfully on their VP9s, why, and what glove size are you?

[Beat Trash]

I wear an XL glove. I have larger size palm with ling fingers. On the VP9, I've found the large backstop with the medium sides to be the best combo. For a while, I used a medium backstop with large side panels. But when I draw the gun and point at a target with one hand, I'd sometimes find the front sight off to the left. Not an issue with the large back and medium sides.

[Cincinnatus]

I wear an XL glove. I have larger size palm with ling fingers. On the VP9, I've found the large backstop with the medium sides to be the best combo. For a while, I used a medium backstop with large side panels. But when I draw the gun and point at a target with one hand, I'd sometimes find the front sight off to the left. Not an issue with the large back and medium sides.
I generally wear an L glove and have been trying large panels and backstrap. Recently switched to large sides and small backstrap, but have yet to try that combo outside of dry fire, and so far seems also somewhat less than rock solid. The large all the way around felt awkward and like I needed to adjust my grip on it to get the right spot. I think I will try the large back and medium sides to see if that helps.

[JonInWA]

After experimentation, I'm running my VP40 with the Small backstrap and Small side panels. The HK Pro site has a good diagnostic/determinant for the backstrap-basically, close eyes, punch out pistol to target, open eyes, see if sights are aligned. If not, change backstrap. After settling on backstrap, go for best feel/comfort/ergos with the side panels. Fine tune as needed.

Best, Jon

[Beat Trash]

Cincinnati's, you might also want to try the Large back and small sides.

[Cincinnatus]

I settled on medium backstrap and large sides.
VERY natural pointability with instinctive point of aim aligned with sights, even with eyes closed in press out.
Also, for dry fire at least, rock solid grip and no sight movement in trigger manipulation.
Will have to see if sight picture recovery in live fire is as sweet as it feels in dry fire, but think I have a winner here.

[DEG]

Cincinnati's, you might also want to try the Large back and small sides.
I settled on this combo. The large back strap allows me to get a consistently higher grip than the medium and small, and the small sides are pretty close to being flat which works well with my support hand clamp. I wear a size L glove.

[John Hearne]

This is more theory to me, but based on reading, that the grip should position the trigger finger to move straight back. The best way to do this is to have the trigger finger interface with the trigger as closely to 90 degrees as possible. For instance, in the picture below, this is me on a P320 with a medium grip. If you look carefully my finger is slightly angled which suggests to me that I should bump up in size to a large. I'm waiting to pickup another grip module to test the theory.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/Gun%20Stuff/STRAIGHT_BACK_zpsxs3ax4xe.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/Gun%20Stuff/STRAIGHT_BACK_zpsxs3ax4xe.jpg.html)

[JTPHD]

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