Video of a hit on a Pagan MC leader in NYC

[LittleLebowski]

Worth watching.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-man-shot-fatal-bronx-silencers-20200503-622ku7s3gnb4rifqqdvrclv7l4-story.html


Two masked bandits hopped out of a Jeep holding pistols with silencers — and blasted a man in the Bronx, killing him in cold blood, startling video obtained by the Daily News shows.

The victim, 51, is seen socializing in a parking lot on Holland Ave. near Boston Rd. in Allerton around 3:20 p.m. when the gunmen get out of the blue Jeep and open fire.

[blues]

I worked UC on a case involving the Pagans in the early 80's. Fortunately, nothing like that was involved in either direction.

[Nephrology]

I always forget that MC gangs are a thing that still exist, for some reason. Fortunately not the kind of person I bump into very much lately.

[John Hearne]

Nice muzzle avert at 00:47.

[Baldanders]

The use of silencers during a daytime assassination seems a bit pointless.

I'm assuming they were folllwing this guy around-- foresight for siliencers but picking a place to do the deed with a camera on it strikes me as really weird planning.

Bizarre. Guess NYC needs a whole parcel of new gun laws.

[Baldanders]

I always forget that MC gangs are a thing that still exist, for some reason. Fortunately not the kind of person I bump into very much lately.

From what I hear, Hell's Angel's have a presence not far from me. (About 20 miles away)There's a sketchy bar/pool hall that's private membership only, no windows that is reputed to a an Angel's gathering place. I hear they had a hand in the local sex trade.

[blues]

I hear they had a hand in the local sex trade.

Back when I was still working among them they ran topless bars, drugs, protection rackets, murder for hire and the usual sorts of mayhem and illegal acts that one can expect from any organized criminal enterprise.

[DC_P]

PAGANS:
People
Against
Goodness
And
Normalcy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIm8qNirTOk

[EPF]

Pagans had a fairly large presence in VA until a task force of good guys targeted them awhile back. I never saw two in the same group that looked remotely fit and mobile like the two assailants. Seemed like most were tall, round, sloppy, and constantly intoxicated. They certainly were a strange presence at the Nations Gun Shows in NOVA back in the day. I wonder if this could have been a cartel drug hit or something.

Interesting vid, thanks for sharing

[LittleLebowski]

It’s almost like a certain lifestyle is bad for one’s health.

[RevolverRob]

It’s almost like a certain lifestyle is bad for one’s health.

I thought the guns and silencers were the bad things in that video? :confused:

Am I getting my wires crossed? Here on Chainsaw-Bidet Forum aren't we left wing liberals?

___

It is shocking how people cannot seem to associate decreased life expectancy with certain professions and/or past-times isn't it?

[blues]

It’s almost like a certain lifestyle is bad for one’s health.

You should sell them on juicers and bidets. ;)

[EPF]

It’s almost like a certain lifestyle is bad for one’s health.

I’m just going to assume that you didn't mean giving up carrying guns for a living to raise kids in the suburbs. Because that would really hurt :cool:

[Caballoflaco]

The use of silencers during a daytime assassination seems a bit pointless.

I'm assuming they were folllwing this guy around-- foresight for siliencers but picking a place to do the deed with a camera on it strikes me as really weird planning.

Bizarre. Guess NYC needs a whole parcel of new gun laws.

Google shot spotter....

[JohnO]

Thankfully they were wearing masks and preventing the spread of the deadly Corona Virus. Gov. Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio will be pleased!

[Baldanders]

Google shot spotter....

Duh.

Sorry, this old man is confused by the high tech world around him.

[jetfire]

The most interesting thing to me is the guy who exits out the passenger door. He clearly stops gets into a stance with a passable grip, and makes aimed shots while his partner is advancing. That's not really something you learn to do from watching Sons of Anarchy

[TGS]

The use of silencers during a daytime assassination seems a bit pointless.


That's what I thought.

If they're not actually going to perform the hit in a covert manner, then why let the prosecutor tack on the extra turn-key prison time for when they eventually get caught?

[TGS]

Double tap

[RevolverRob]

The most interesting thing to me is the guy who exits out the passenger door. He clearly stops gets into a stance with a passable grip, and makes aimed shots while his partner is advancing. That's not really something you learn to do from watching Sons of Anarchy

Like maybe those dudes are former military? Someone advanced the hypothesis that maybe it was a Cartel hit. Not a bad hypothesis, frankly. Cartel has plenty of former military guys on the payroll, including a large number of former Central and South American special forces dudes, many carrying around our SF small unit tactics as part of their core training.


That's what I thought.

If they're not actually going to perform the hit in a covert manner, then why let the prosecutor tack on the extra turn-key prison time for when they eventually get caught?

I'm not sure they'll get caught. Though the camera was there, the masks, gloves, equipment, stances and movements - strikes me as the mark of fairly professional dudes. I'd guess they are long gone.

But I'm not an investigator, so maybe there is something you're picking up on from watching the video that I'm not seeing?

[jetfire]

Like maybe those dudes are former military? Someone advanced the hypothesis that maybe it was a Cartel hit. Not a bad hypothesis, frankly. Cartel has plenty of former military guys on the payroll, including a large number of former Central and South American special forces dudes, many carrying around our SF small unit tactics as part of their core training.

Could be, could be someone takes his job as a hit man seriously and trains. Regardless, videos like this are instructional for the crowd who think every self defense situation will be 3 yards 3 shots 3 seconds.

Now the obvious way to avoid this sort of thing is don't get into a life of crime, but you know

[mtnbkr]

I always forget that MC gangs are a thing that still exist, for some reason. Fortunately not the kind of person I bump into very much lately.

Yup. Still around, still active. I have a few friends who are MC-adjacent (they still have friends/connections in that world but are no longer active themselves more than 20 years on).


Pagans had a fairly large presence in VA until a task force of good guys targeted them awhile back.

While working for a previous company I did some work for an agency and my site contact for one location was part of that task force. His office had mementos...


I never saw two in the same group that looked remotely fit and mobile like the two assailants. Seemed like most were tall, round, sloppy, and constantly intoxicated.
I've met a few that weren't round, sloppy, or constantly intoxicated. Thought that is seems to be related to their age, health, and standing within the club apparently.

Chris

[TGS]

Nothing about the video, especially the use of suppressors in a unhelpful manner, make me think they're high level pros. To quote Frank Costello*, "In this country it doesn't add inches to your dick, just time to your sentence." (*name that movie)

If they were high level pros that wanted to "keep it quiet", there wouldn't be video of them mag-dumping sumdood in broad daylight. If they wanted it to be public and "loud" to make a statement, they wouldn't be using suppressors.

IMO.

[Baldanders]

I guess social distancing enforcement in NYC got real.

[Baldanders]

Could be, could be someone takes his job as a hit man seriously and trains. Regardless, videos like this are instructional for the crowd who think every self defense situation will be 3 yards 3 shots 3 seconds.

Now the obvious way to avoid this sort of thing is don't get into a life of crime, but you know

Reading this, tne scenes where Snoop and Chris train their protege in The Wire came to mind.

There are gradations between "completely ignorant" and "high-speed low-drag tactical operator."

[Maple Syrup Actual]

MC gangs, still quite a thing in Canada. Back when I used to live in Montreal, they were the dominant players in lots of organized crime. The local head, this guy Mom Boucher, organized hits on his guards from prison. They were pretty serious. I worked the door in bars there and had to deal with them a lot. Some were just rando roly-poly thugs but most who were not upper-echelon guys were still working the street selling drugs etc and were heavy users of steroids, lots of MMA or boxing...they were dangerous.

Actually, here as well, in the city up the road from me, they're by far the dominant form of organized crime. You see guys who are fully patched out semi-regularly. And up in Kelowna where they've had some serious square-offs with other local gangs, it's crazy. You occasionally see a hundred of them ride into town at once, the procession could be three blocks long. The only thing that's really shaken their control of the drug trade is the fact that anybody can just order fentanyl from chinese labs over the internet, so you can set up a drug ring overnight if you want. Otherwise they have a very tight grip on, say, cocaine imports.

[JohnO]

https://www.myrecordjournal.com/Archive/2017/07/RegBikerNewHavenIndy-RJ-070117

I first heard about the guy featured in the story because my son living in California told me about him. My son got into the Harley world out in CA. I thought it mildly interesting that he hears about a biker guy back home who is a internet sensation.

Fast forward some time and I ask a friend/New Haven, CT LEO if he knows of this infamous biker. Yes he does. He tells me he's part of the "Hole in the Wall" gang.

A few months later he sends me a picture from a raid with the caption, "Tell your son that guy in NH who does all the cool Harley wheelie videos wont be making them anytime soon."

53384

This biker celeb goes by reckless203 on instagram. Check that out on Instagram if you want to see some crazy bike stuff on city streets.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5WZ2y7B-Ds/

[TC215]

Like maybe those dudes are former military? Someone advanced the hypothesis that maybe it was a Cartel hit. Not a bad hypothesis, frankly. Cartel has plenty of former military guys on the payroll, including a large number of former Central and South American special forces dudes, many carrying around our SF small unit tactics as part of their core training.



I'm not sure they'll get caught. Though the camera was there, the masks, gloves, equipment, stances and movements - strikes me as the mark of fairly professional dudes. I'd guess they are long gone.

But I'm not an investigator, so maybe there is something you're picking up on from watching the video that I'm not seeing?

There are numerous things that could be followed up on, but— if anyone else knows about it, other than the two guys that did it, they’ll get caught. People can’t keep their mouths shut. Ever.

[TGS]

There are numerous things that could be followed up on, but— if anyone else knows about it, other than the two guys that did it, they’ll get caught. People can’t keep their mouths shut. Ever.

Between chatty people, people looking for a payout, and people looking for a plea deal...

[p7fl]

Two just curious questions:
First, would you leave car running?
And, with head coverings and face masks would the new AI facial software work?

[jetfire]

Between chatty people, people looking for a payout, and people looking for a plea deal...

What was it Jefferson said? "Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead"

[blues]

MC gangs, still quite a thing in Canada. Back when I used to live in Montreal, they were the dominant players in lots of organized crime. The local head, this guy Mom Boucher, organized hits on his guards from prison. They were pretty serious. I worked the door in bars there and had to deal with them a lot. Some were just rando roly-poly thugs but most who were not upper-echelon guys were still working the street selling drugs etc and were heavy users of steroids, lots of MMA or boxing...they were dangerous.



I worked with RCMP in Montreal during the Rock Machine - Hells Angels war back in the late 90's or early 2000's. (They were straw purchasing weapons in South FL to smuggle across the border.)

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

Nothing about the video, especially the use of suppressors in a unhelpful manner, make me think they're high level pros. To quote Frank Costello*, "In this country it doesn't add inches to your dick, just time to your sentence." (*name that movie)...
53392

[Baldanders]

I worked with RCMP in Montreal during the Rock Machine - Hells Angels war back in the late 90's or early 2000's. (They were straw purchasing weapons in South FL to smuggle across the border.)


I hope that didn't get as nasty as this one:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Nordic_Biker_War

Nothing says "war" like anti-tank rockets.

1% MCs don't really do "subtle," do they?

(Today's video certainly screams YO FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT! HOW'S IT HANGING? WE'RE DYING TO HAVE OUR DOORS KICKED IN!)

Y'know how LARPing has come up here? Is there a good term for the same thing, but eventually it ends up in killing/being killed? 'Cause I feel like folks get into this shit with the hope that it will it lead to shoot-outs in public.

I used to be naive enough to think money was the only real motivator for criminal violence.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I worked with RCMP in Montreal during the Rock Machine - Hells Angels war back in the late 90's or early 2000's. (They were straw purchasing weapons in South FL to smuggle across the border.)

Oh man, those were sketchy times. I was in Montreal for a fair bit of that. When I first moved there, I stayed with a guy I knew through the motorcycle scene and the first weekend I was there, this guy "Brutus" showed up who was the president of the Rockers MC at the time, I think. I recall thinking "I should probably stay somewhere that will be less likely to be hit with a rocket launcher than this." Although, to be fair to Brutus, he did own a very nice Camaro. I think that's the only good thing I can think of to say but credit where credit is due.

Brutus is dead now, but I'm not sure how. I read that he died in 2018. I would not be surprised if liver failure contributed to his untimely passing. As testimony to our fantastic legal system, he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder, and served a whopping FOUR years. Now that's a deterrent!

[LOKNLOD]

What are they shooting there? Closer guy almost looks like a .22 or something with a more tubular top end. No clear slide movement. Ruger Mark-whatever?

[Erick Gelhaus]

No Pagan M/C charters locally and it's been a few years since I worked street gangs ...

Who are they at war these days?

Are there internal issues and power struggles going on? Major cases against them in a pre-trial phase?

A day time hit, in public? Seems like someone wanted to make a point, since there is another way or two to get the same result without that level of visibility.

Could not tell if either pistol was at slide lock when the shooters returned to the Cherokee and I didn't see any mention of the number of shots fired in the OPs article. Is there a more detailed one with that info?

Hang-arounds? Prospects? Someone's modern equivalent of the original Filthy Few? Other continuing criminal enterprise participants?

[Totem Polar]

We’ve got two "big-box" MC orgs active in my area. Being as I’m out in the hipper drinking places after hours a lot professionally, I run into them from time to time.

As an aside, I have a film camera that I used to take to industry-only events. In my "not digital—will never be on the web" photo files, I have pics taken with some then-hotness rock stars, along with one of me and Sonny Barger. I find it easy to believe that those guys have their hands in everything, including perfectly legal music equipment manufacturing.

[Hambo]

What was it Jefferson said? "Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead"

Not even one can keep a secret. We had a guy who straight up got away with murder. Years later he bragged about it, and the detectives and anthropologists put together a case.

[RevolverRob]

What are they shooting there? Closer guy almost looks like a .22 or something with a more tubular top end. No clear slide movement. Ruger Mark-whatever?

You know - are we sure they are actually using cans? And not just .22s with long bull barrels?

The video has no sound.

[Coyotesfan97]

There are numerous things that could be followed up on, but— if anyone else knows about it, other than the two guys that did it, they’ll get caught. People can’t keep their mouths shut. Ever.

Three can keep a secret if two are dead. That’s the subtitle of a book Hells Angels by Yves Lavigne.

[Coyotesfan97]

I worked with RCMP in Montreal during the Rock Machine - Hells Angels war back in the late 90's or early 2000's. (They were straw purchasing weapons in South FL to smuggle across the border.)

Blues did you ever read Hells Angles by Yves Lavigne. He covers the HA vs Outlaws war in Canada pretty well.

[WobblyPossum]

I’m just guessing and have no inside knowledge of the investigation, but I also think the suppressors were an effort to beat the shotspotters that are all over the city. NYPD made no secret of installing those things all over the place. Maybe those guys were hoping to be long gone before the police were even notified. A shotspotter would have NYPD rolling before the first 911 calls came in. Anyone not having witnessed the shooting itself would likely not be sure that what they heard were gun shots at all.

[Coyotesfan97]

In Arizona it’s Hell’s Angels vs Mongols for the most part. There’s been some high level tit vs tat. It seems like the Outlaws were trying to come in for awhile but I haven’t seen much of that.

When I was in gangs the big four IIRC were the Angels, the Outlaws, the Banditos, and the Pagans. I need to ask our MC Detective who is considered the big four now.

[Stephanie B]

Between chatty people, people looking for a payout, and people looking for a plea deal...

Yeah. Some guy whacked a lawyer in upstate NY who had a kinda shady rep. Weird deal; the slug went in between his eye and the socket and then pretty much cored his brain. But there wasn't any obvious external signs. Since he was dead when he was found, they pretty much wrote it off as a heart attack. No crime scene tape or anything.

As the story goes, the family immediately dug a pit out back and burned all of the guy's records, every piece of paper that they could find. Bankers boxes of old papers, file cabinets of stuff, everything.

Three or so days later, the M.E. or somebody autopsied the dead guy and found a .380 slug in his head. And there it stalled, for about ten or so years. Until someone down south wanted to trade ratting on the case for a plea.

[Baldanders]

You know - are we sure they are actually using cans? And not just .22s with long bull barrels?

The video has no sound.

Heinlein would be proud. You'd make a good Fair Witness.

If those are just bull-barreled. 22s, this took a turn into the absurd. But given LARP is a thing.....I can see someone doing it 'cause it looked like the guns Mafia hit men use in the movies, which means it "sends more of a message." Or they figured it would look like a cartel hit?

[Stephanie B]

If those are just bull-barreled. 22s, this took a turn into the absurd. But given LARP is a thing.....I can see someone doing it 'cause it looked like the guns Mafia hit men use in the movies, which means it "sends more of a message." Or they figured it would look like a cartel hit?

That would be a good amount of misdirection.

[Baldanders]

Yeah. Some guy whacked a lawyer in upstate NY who had a kinda shady rep. Weird deal; the slug went in between his eye and the socket and then pretty much cored his brain. But there wasn't any obvious external signs. Since he was dead when he was found, they pretty much wrote it off as a heart attack. No crime scene tape or anything.

Three or so days later, the M.E. or somebody autopsied the dead guy and found a .380 slug in his head. And there it stalled, for about ten or so years. Until someone down south wanted to trade ratting on the case for a plea.

I say that's proof someone has learned the Gun-Fu technique equivalent of the fabled "Palm of Death."

Yeah, I know, "bullets do weird things." But no obvious brusing or bleeding? WTF?

[Stephanie B]

I say that's proof someone has learned the Gun-Fu technique equivalent of the fabled "Palm of Death."

Yeah, I know, "bullets do weird things." But no obvious brusing or bleeding? WTF?

I don't know how closely the ambulance drivers looked at him. Could it be that he croaked so quickly that neither happened.

[blues]

Blues did you ever read Hells Angles by Yves Lavigne. He covers the HA vs Outlaws war in Canada pretty well.

Coyotesfan97

I don't think so. I've read a handful of books on the topic over the years. I'll try to check it out.

One that I did read, and didn't realize was going to prominently feature an old buddy of mine from ATF down in Miami, is "No Angel" (https://www.amazon.com/No-Angel-Harrowing-Undercover-Journey/dp/0307405869) by Jay Dobyns. Took me by surprise.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article41232018.html


Personally, I hope my interactions with Pagans and Outlaws and related groups are over with for good. ;)

[mmc45414]

One that I did read, and didn't realize was going to prominently feature an old buddy of mine from ATF down in Miami, is "No Angel" (https://www.amazon.com/No-Angel-Harrowing-Undercover-Journey/dp/0307405869) by Jay Dobyns.
I really enjoyed this interview podcast:
https://youtu.be/U_bO6wE05aQ
I thought his story of not making it in the NFL is pretty funny.

[mmc45414]

I don't know how closely the ambulance drivers looked at him. Could it be that he croaked so quickly that neither happened.
Maybe he looked the part for a heart attack.

[JDD]

Nice muzzle avert at 00:47.

That jumped out at me, more than anything else in the video. Not because it was super tactical or rehearsed, but because it looked like it happened without conscious thought.

[Totem Polar]

You know - are we sure they are actually using cans? And not just .22s with long bull barrels?

Dunno...

[Paul D]

Based on the news report and street signs on the video, this is where the target was probably standing. Google maps measures sidewalk to sidewalk to be about 15 yards. If cars were parked there like in this picture, it would not have been super easy shooting. Of course if the Pagen boss was standing in front of the car on the street, then it would be super easy.

53412

[HCM]

Heinlein would be proud. You'd make a good Fair Witness.

If those are just bull-barreled. 22s, this took a turn into the absurd. But given LARP is a thing.....I can see someone doing it 'cause it looked like the guns Mafia hit men use in the movies, which means it "sends more of a message." Or they figured it would look like a cartel hit?

You mean look like a cartel hit in the movies and TV.

Cartels don’t do dirt in public like this in the US. In Mexico they either snatch the target up for fun and games, do super low vis “walk ups” or full assault mode.

[HCM]

No Pagan M/C charters locally and it's been a few years since I worked street gangs ...

Who are they at war these days?

Are there internal issues and power struggles going on? Major cases against them in a pre-trial phase?

A day time hit, in public? Seems like someone wanted to make a point, since there is another way or two to get the same result without that level of visibility.

Could not tell if either pistol was at slide lock when the shooters returned to the Cherokee and I didn't see any mention of the number of shots fired in the OPs article. Is there a more detailed one with that info?

Hang-arounds? Prospects? Someone's modern equivalent of the original Filthy Few? Other continuing criminal enterprise participants?

The Pagans are an East Coast (primarily NE) group. Never heard of them west oth the Mississippi. PA/ OH is as far as I’m aware of.

Been around at least since the 1970s.

In your area (my old area) I recall mostly HA with some Vagos. The Mongols were coming on strong in the South Bay /Santa Clara County area.

[Sal Picante]

The use of silencers during a daytime assassination seems a bit pointless.

I'm assuming they were folllwing this guy around-- foresight for siliencers but picking a place to do the deed with a camera on it strikes me as really weird planning.

Bizarre. Guess NYC needs a whole parcel of new gun laws.

You know - that's what I was thinking... Why even bother with the silencers if you're in broad daylight and outside on a busy street where people can obviously see you?

I just don't get it...

[ST911]

I hope the XJ is okay.

[Warped Mindless]

You know - that's what I was thinking... Why even bother with the silencers if you're in broad daylight and outside on a busy street where people can obviously see you?

I just don't get it...

Cans can help distort it enough that it doesn't trigger the ShotSpotter technology. Of course, with a ton of witnessess around, all with cell phones, not sure how much that really matters.

[Baldanders]

You mean look like a cartel hit in the movies and TV.

Cartels don’t do dirt in public like this in the US. In Mexico they either snatch the target up for fun and games, do super low vis “walk ups” or full assault mode.

Yes, that is what I meant. It looks like a "professional hit" on Mr Robot, Ozark, etc.

ETA: even down to the all-black vehicle and clothing.

[Joe S]

Cans can help distort it enough that it doesn't trigger the ShotSpotter technology. Of course, with a ton of witnessess around, all with cell phones, not sure how much that really matters.

45 seconds worth of time gets you several blocks away with the vehicle ditched and you being a normal guy walking into a subway station with a different color jacket on, carrying groceries home to your family.

[HCM]

Yes, that is what I meant. It looks like a "professional hit" on Mr Robot, Ozark, etc.

ETA: even down to the all-black vehicle and clothing.

That intent could be part of sending a message.

Bad guys watch movies too.

[Baldanders]

That intent could be part of sending a message.

Bad guys watch movies too.

That certainly crossed my mind.

From what I understand, much of the current Mafia initiation is based on what mobsters saw in the Godfather films and thought must be authentic. The second wave of the KKK only burned crosses because they saw it in "Birth of a Nation."

The line between cosplay/LARP and reality gets pretty hazy in criminal circles.

If you're "sending a message," Hollywood has already created a vocabulary everyone understands.

[Borderland]

In Arizona it’s Hell’s Angels vs Mongols for the most part. There’s been some high level tit vs tat. It seems like the Outlaws were trying to come in for awhile but I haven’t seen much of that.

When I was in gangs the big four IIRC were the Angels, the Outlaws, the Banditos, and the Pagans. I need to ask our MC Detective who is considered the big four now.

There are some Banditos around here. I've seen them on the freeway. There may even be a few in my neighborhood according to some acquaintances. I know a woman who builds custom bikes and her family. As some have said, they can work both sides of the street pretty well. She's a real charmer. I'm just glad she's not my neighbor. Predatory that one.

[blues]

That certainly crossed my mind.

From what I understand, much of the current Mafia initiation is based on what mobsters saw in the Godfather films and thought must be authentic. The second wave of the KKK only burned crosses because they saw it in "Birth of a Nation."

The line between cosplay/LARP and reality gets pretty hazy in criminal circles.

If you're "sending a message," Hollywood has already created a vocabulary everyone understands.

I don't think there were any initiation ceremonies in The Godfather films. I remember at least one in the Sopranos.

Most folks who have spent any amount of time around the mob via family, friends and acquaintances will be able to tell you that most of these guys are not criminal geniuses. Most are pretty dim bulbs. That doesn't make them less dangerous, necessarily, but I can tell a few stories about their less than stellar intelligence.

[TGS]

blues,

I had the good fortune of arresting an LCN soldier as part of a big op. One of the more fortunate things I got to do.

Fucking comical. It was like something out of the movies. White trash big-hair wife running around panicking smoking 2 cigarettes at a time, and he's just yelling at her to shut the fuck up so he can get arrested in peace. Oh, and to please make coffee for his guests (us). Shook our hands on the way in like it was a business meeting.

They used an MC for security at one of their businesses.

Guys seized all sorts of indicia of sex trafficking on that one just to prank the case agent. Case agent was super pissed when management asked why there was a pile of obviously used dildos and several gallon jugs of lube sitting in the evidence room.

Things that JDD missed by choosing the wrong field office...

[blues]

blues,

I had the good fortune of arresting an LCN soldier as part of a big op. One of the more fortunate things I got to do.

Fucking comical. It was like something out of the movies. White trash big-hair wife running around panicking smoking 2 cigarettes at a time, and he's just yelling at her to shut the fuck up so he can get arrested in peace. Oh, and to please make coffee for his guests (us). Shook our hands on the way in like it was a business meeting.

They used an MC for security at one of their businesses.

Guys seized all sorts of indicia of sex trafficking on that one just to prank the case agent. Case agent was super pissed when management asked why there was a pile of obviously used dildos and several gallon jugs of lube sitting in the evidence room.

Things that JDD missed by choosing the wrong field office...

Been there, done that, got a few t-shirts. ;) Fuhgeddaboudit.

Won't take this thread off topic too much, but finding dildos seems to be a particular talent for some agents. I had an old partner, former ATF, who had a penchant for finding them and then bringing loud (and inappropriate) attention to them in both public and private settings. Hilarious, but a bit cringeworthy as well.

[Baldanders]

I don't think there were any initiation ceremonies in The Godfather films. I remember at least one in the Sopranos.

Most folks who have spent any amount of time around the mob via family, friends and acquaintances will be able to tell you that most of these guys are not criminal geniuses. Most are pretty dim bulbs. That doesn't make them less dangerous, necessarily, but I can tell a few stories about their less than stellar intelligence.

A bit of Googling and it looks those were in the popular novels. Can't find a link proving it had an influence on the real thing, but the fact that it is"very close" to the "real thing" makes me think it probably ended up shaping it:


https://metro.co.uk/2007/07/23/godfather-style-mafia-initiations-close-to-truth-561680/

ETA: I used to work for a Greek restaurant owner who had been nailed for tax evasion and couldn't have anything in his name. The holding company would change names and screw all the suppliers every 3-4 months. He was a sleazy little low-class idiot.

The guys in tracksuits and medallions who showed up at night to "supervise" the Hispanic employees were also charmers.

Supposedly he was tied in with the Gambini family.

ETA#2: if you are thinking about eating in a "mobbed up" restaurant, keep in mind they probably have the same attitude towards health codes as they do other laws.

It's a miracle the mussels that went back out on the hot bar day-after-day didn't kill anyone at the place I was working at. AFAIK, I'm the only employee who cleaned the jug for milk for the espresso drinks and put all new fresh milk in.

[TGS]

Supposedly he was tied in with the Gambini family.

I'm in no way shape or form an expert on OC, just had the chance to work some of it in the NYC area. Korean, LCN, Russian, and MCs.

My takeaway was that a lot of them are entangled and tied together in some way. MCs do the dirty work, Russians source women and run a lot of day-to-day logistics, LCN is a venture capitalist.

In other words, LCN was the investment firm, Russian mafia was the talent management/recruiter, and MCs were G4S/Securitas/Garda. Black street gangs were akin to Hispanic illegal alien under-the-table workers, and called in for work that was deemed below white people, including when our CI was leaked by another agency and he turned around to us and said, "That's the same crew I used to hire, they're here for me." All of these groups were supremely racist.

It was interesting.

[Stephanie B]

Cans can help distort it enough that it doesn't trigger the ShotSpotter technology. Of course, with a ton of witnessess around, all with cell phones, not sure how much that really matters.

I'd guess that in certain neighborhoods, few will call 911 or volunteer that they saw anything.

The Shot Spotter seems to be something that could be spoofed.

[Baldanders]

I'm in no way shape or form an expert on OC, just had the chance to work some of it in the NYC area. Korean, LCN, Russian, and MCs.

My takeaway was that a lot of them are entangled and tied together in some way. MCs do the dirty work, Russians source women and run a lot of day-to-day logistics, LCN is a venture capitalist.

In other words, LCN was the investment firm, Russian mafia was the talent management/recruiter, and MCs were G4S/Securitas/Garda. Black street gangs were akin to Hispanic illegal alien under-the-table workers, and called in for work that was deemed below white people, including when our CI was leaked by another agency and he turned around to us and said, "That's the same crew I used to hire, they're here for me." All of these groups were supremely racist.

It was interesting.

I don't really have any details to add, but your post makes my brief employment at a sketchy place make a bit more sense.

It seemed like a nexus for different sketchy groups to interact with each other. Everyone seemed to assume the "night supervisors" were LCN. Many stories about deliveries at night that then disappeared by morning. This was in Durham, NC, which seemed to be a halfway point for organized crime between NYC and Florida, with plenty of drugs flowing from Wilmington into that corridor.

I can certainly say the stereotype of "front business" employees being treated well is a load of shit. Head chef came up from a restaurant in Florida owned by the same Greek. Had a promise for a nice long gig after bringing up his family and getting the place running. He got shitcanned by the effete 2nd in command about six months in, then they hired experienced folks to run individual sections. It was the most chaotic place I've ever worked at.

[blues]

I'm in no way shape or form an expert on OC, just had the chance to work some of it in the NYC area. Korean, LCN, Russian, and MCs.

My takeaway was that a lot of them are entangled and tied together in some way. MCs do the dirty work, Russians source women and run a lot of day-to-day logistics, LCN is a venture capitalist.

In other words, LCN was the investment firm, Russian mafia was the talent management/recruiter, and MCs were G4S/Securitas/Garda. Black street gangs were akin to Hispanic illegal alien under-the-table workers, and called in for work that was deemed below white people, including when our CI was leaked by another agency and he turned around to us and said, "That's the same crew I used to hire, they're here for me." All of these groups were supremely racist.

It was interesting.

Ebbs and flows with the times and circumstances.

In the 80's, LCN ran topless joints in Nassau and the MCs in Suffolk County. For the most part, the line was respected. Jobs were farmed out to the Westies, and / or MCs who on any given day might or might not tolerate one another. (They often handled inter-family disputes that could not come back to the originators.)

The Russians were picking up a lot of steam, and the lines for who did what role...gambling, vice, arcade machines, bookmaking etc...and where, became blurred.

And let's not forget the Chinese gangs. (They were the first OC gang I worked on in lower Manhattan. Prostitution mainly.)

We did a lot of work with the Colombos back then. Carmine Persico and company. Lovely bunch.

Ah, the good old days.

[Baldanders]

Ebbs and flows with the times and circumstances.

In the 80's, LCN ran topless joints in Nassau and the MCs in Suffolk County. For the most part, the line was respected. Jobs were farmed out to the Westies, and / or MCs who on any given day might or might not tolerate one another. (They often handled inter-family disputes that could not come back to the originators.)

The Russians were picking up a lot of steam, and the lines for who did what role...gambling, vice, arcade machines, bookmaking etc...and where, became blurred.

And let's not forget the Chinese gangs. (They were the first OC gang I worked on in lower Manhattan. Prostitution mainly.)

We did a lot of work with the Colombos back then. Carmine Persico and company. Lovely bunch.

Ah, the good old days.

America, the great melting pot!

Is there as much "co-operation" among organized crime groups in other countries? I have the impression that the 'Ngandretta, the Yakuza and the like don't deal with "outside contractors" much, but I have no real basis for that idea.

We are a much more multicultural society than most...

[blues]

America, the great melting pot!

Is there as much "co-operation" among organized crime groups in other countries? I have the impression that the 'Ngandretta, the Yakuza and the like don't deal with "outside contractors" much, but I have no real basis for that idea.

We are a much more multicultural society than most...

Money and greed make bedfellows of many, but not all. The Italian mob families in Sicily and Calabria and Naples have enough trouble getting along.

I must say, I've not dealt with Japanese O.C. but I have found them an interesting study.


We never mentioned Jamaican posses...they were a thing in South FL. (And Brooklyn.) The Albanians, though I've not dealt with them. And on and on.

[Baldanders]

We never mentioned Jamaican posses...they were a thing in South FL. (And Brooklyn.) The Albanians, though I've not dealt with them. And on and on.

The fact that "shower posses" (as in a "shower" of bullets) show up in election years in Jamaica to encourage proper voting speaks volumes about the culture.

I'm sure dealing with the posses over here is all puppies, kittens, and rainbows.

[Baldanders]

I must say, I've not dealt with Japanese O.C. but I have found them an interesting study.


The Yakusa actually register with the authorities, which is damned hard for me to understand.

But I guess 1%er MCs are officially incorporated, too. But they have a story about just being motorcycle enthusiasts, at least.

[Caballoflaco]

So back in January “somebody” shot up the new Hells Angels clubhouse in the Bronx. Occam would tell us that these two incidents are probably related.


Multiple gunmen fired over a dozen shots at the Hells Angels' brand new clubhouse in the Bronx on Thursday night, just weeks after the notorious biker gang left their longtime East Village headquarters for quieter digs in Throggs Neck.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/champ.gothamist.com/champ/gothamist/news/hells-angels-brand-new-clubhouse-shot-unknown-gunmen

[BehindBlueI's]

If I'm up for Murder, either premeditated or for hire, I'm figuring whatever "extra time" the silencer brings is worth the reduced risk of popping up on shot-spotter software and making more ear witnesses. Automated dispatches are a lot quicker then 911 calls. It's a hell of a lot harder to beat a case getting stopped in the vehicle with the guns and the clothes, etc. then disappearing and the car turning up weeks or months later, or never, the guns gone, the clothes gone, etc. Yeah, somebody may talk. Somebody talking isn't a case by itself, and a lot of times the guy who's talking is going to be absolute shit on the stand as he tries to do just enough to look like he's keeping his end of the deal. Or he gets intimidated. Or killed. It definitely happens.

A fair number of 1%ers are veterans. The head of one of the local chapters of one of the national players is a USMC combat vet. It'd be a mistake to assume that all of these guys are meth-head bubbas. It's equally be a mistake to assume they are all hardened bad-asses. There are some of each.

[Totem Polar]

So back in January “somebody” shot up the new Hells Angels clubhouse in the Bronx. Occam would tell us that these two incidents are probably related.


How about that.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

If I'm up for Murder, either premeditated or for hire, I'm figuring whatever "extra time" the silencer brings is worth the reduced risk of popping up on shot-spotter software and making more ear witnesses. Automated dispatches are a lot quicker then 911 calls. It's a hell of a lot harder to beat a case getting stopped in the vehicle with the guns and the clothes, etc. then disappearing and the car turning up weeks or months later, or never, the guns gone, the clothes gone, etc. Yeah, somebody may talk. Somebody talking isn't a case by itself, and a lot of times the guy who's talking is going to be absolute shit on the stand as he tries to do just enough to look like he's keeping his end of the deal. Or he gets intimidated. Or killed. It definitely happens.

A fair number of 1%ers are veterans. The head of one of the local chapters of one of the national players is a USMC combat vet. It'd be a mistake to assume that all of these guys are meth-head bubbas. It's equally be a mistake to assume they are all hardened bad-asses. There are some of each.

Serious question: are 1%ers more or less annoying than 3%ers?

[JRV]

Serious question: are 1%ers more or less annoying than 3%ers?

Wait until you hear about the 0.03%ers.

Hardcore MC outlaws that fought the British in the American Revolution. They never shut up about it.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

legit LOL, came in waves as the math hit...very good.

[BehindBlueI's]

Serious question: are 1%ers more or less annoying than 3%ers?

If you mean literally annoying, 3%ers by far. Much more likely to show up at protests and be an annoyance as they pretend-freedom-fight for whatever the cause of the day is. If you mean "cause real problems" then the 1%ers.

[Nephrology]

If you mean literally annoying, 3%ers by far. Much more likely to show up at protests and be an annoyance as they pretend-freedom-fight for whatever the cause of the day is. If you mean "cause real problems" then the 1%ers.

Listen, when else do I get the chance to show off my Palmetto State AR15 and the shemagh I got on Amazon?

[Stephanie B]

If I'm up for Murder, either premeditated or for hire, I'm figuring whatever "extra time" the silencer brings is worth the reduced risk of popping up on shot-spotter software and making more ear witnesses. Automated dispatches are a lot quicker then 911 calls. It's a hell of a lot harder to beat a case getting stopped in the vehicle with the guns and the clothes, etc. then disappearing and the car turning up weeks or months later, or never, the guns gone, the clothes gone, etc. Yeah, somebody may talk. Somebody talking isn't a case by itself, and a lot of times the guy who's talking is going to be absolute shit on the stand as he tries to do just enough to look like he's keeping his end of the deal. Or he gets intimidated. Or killed. It definitely happens.

What bugs me is that the gun-banners may cotton to that and then it's going to be even harder to get the restrictions on silencers loosened further.

I've thought that the ShotSpotter is spoofable. Some decoy events a few minutes before the main event would give the bad guys some room for nefarious deeds.

[Det1397]

Long Island, especially Suffolk County, still has a pretty good presence of HA’s and associated clubs (ie. Demon Knights), with sightings of Pagans getting more prevalent. Gives one the impression that things could jump off at any given moment...


Ebbs and flows with the times and circumstances.

In the 80's, LCN ran topless joints in Nassau and the MCs in Suffolk County. For the most part, the line was respected. Jobs were farmed out to the Westies, and / or MCs who on any given day might or might not tolerate one another. (They often handled inter-family disputes that could not come back to the originators.)

The Russians were picking up a lot of steam, and the lines for who did what role...gambling, vice, arcade machines, bookmaking etc...and where, became blurred.

And let's not forget the Chinese gangs. (They were the first OC gang I worked on in lower Manhattan. Prostitution mainly.)

We did a lot of work with the Colombos back then. Carmine Persico and company. Lovely bunch.

Ah, the good old days.

[LittleLebowski]

I hope the XJ is okay.

#MeToo (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MeToo)

[BehindBlueI's]

What bugs me is that the gun-banners may cotton to that and then it's going to be even harder to get the restrictions on silencers loosened further.


Given we've seen no interest from our "friends" in actually making that happen in the best of situations, I'm not worried this is the tipping point. It's not going to happen, regardless.

[DC_P]

Most folks who have spent any amount of time around the mob via family, friends and acquaintances will be able to tell you that most of these guys are not criminal geniuses. Most are pretty dim bulbs. That doesn't make them less dangerous, necessarily, but I can tell a few stories about their less than stellar intelligence.

Sounds like an excellent topic for a new thread. Dumb crook stories rival Florida Man for entertainment.

[Stephanie B]

Given we've seen no interest from our "friends" in actually making that happen in the best of situations, I'm not worried this is the tipping point. It's not going to happen, regardless.

This is what gets me about a certain large 2A organization: They consider as their allies politicians who are not trying to help, just that they aren't trying to hurt. It's sort of like saying "I guess he loves me, because he sits on the couch all the time, watching sports/porn and he doesn't smack me around."

So as long as the 2A community isn't being beaten on, it's all good, in their estimation.

[joshs]

What bugs me is that the gun-banners may cotton to that and then it's going to be even harder to get the restrictions on silencers loosened further.

I've thought that the ShotSpotter is spoofable. Some decoy events a few minutes before the main event would give the bad guys some room for nefarious deeds.

ShotSpotter claims that they can detect suppressed gunfire. https://www.nraila.org/articles/20170324/the-washington-post-gives-gun-control-group-and-us-senator-three-pinocchios-on-suppressors

There are lots of things about gun shot sound waves that ShotSpotter uses to detect them beyond "loudness."

[mmc45414]

I hope the XJ is okay.

#MeToo (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MeToo)
It sure looked like it was a clean one!
It did make me think when I saw this, we had a 2000 and it would probably be a good getaway car. They are pretty peppy 0-50mph and not so large in traffic.
Realistically, not sure I have hope for the preservation of this one...

[LittleLebowski]

I despise what cash for clunkers did to older vehicles. I'd love to have an XJ 4 door 4wd stick six cylinder.

[joshs]

This is what gets me about a certain large 2A organization: They consider as their allies politicians who are not trying to help, just that they aren't trying to hurt. It's sort of like saying "I guess he loves me, because he sits on the couch all the time, watching sports/porn and he doesn't smack me around."

So as long as the 2A community isn't being beaten on, it's all good, in their estimation.

If we only consider people that agree with us 100% as our allies, we'll quickly run out of friends who don't want to smack us around. We need more education on suppressors. I've been personally invested in that effort for the past decade. We've worked very closely with American Suppressor Association on that effort (their president is good friend of mine).

It's harder to make phones ring on an issue that fewer gun owners are willing to take action on. We're working on that, but it's not where we are on other issues (stopping gun bans, national reciprocity, etc.).

[BehindBlueI's]

I despise what cash for clunkers did to older vehicles. I'd love to have an XJ 4 door 4wd stick six cylinder.

I don't think CFC had much of an impact, especially now. Jeep made roughly 2.3 million Cherokees. CFC took in fewer then 700,000 vehicles in total and Cherokees were only the 6th most commonly turned in. The Ford F-150 and Explorer were the top turned in vehicles, and even if you were to assume every single vehicle turned in was an F-150 it wouldn't wipe out most single year production numbers. I suspect that a Cherokee that wasn't worth more than the $4500 voucher in 2009 probably wouldn't still be on the road today for you to buy one way or the other. If you want to argue the availability and pricing of junk yard motors for a few years, that's more likely, but CFC didn't really move the needle on used car pricing as 700k cars is nothing to the overall market.

That said, I had a 2000 Cherokee that I liked. The 4.0 runs forever but mine was an automatic. I worked at a Jeep/Nissan/Chrysler dealership for a bit while they were still being produced. They never made many manuals, and I don't think I've ever seen a 4 door manual. Maybe you could order one that way, but I never saw one on the lot or in the service bay. I didn't work there all that long, though.

A quick search of cars.com shows exactly one manual XJ in the entire US. $8900 for a 2-door. https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/810103108/overview/

Not an XJ, but arguably cooler and 4-doors: https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/799152906/overview/

And that's it for Cherokees with manuals.

[Talionis]

I don't think CFC had much of an impact, especially now. Jeep made roughly 2.3 million Cherokees. CFC took in fewer then 700,000 vehicles in total and Cherokees were only the 6th most commonly turned in. The Ford F-150 and Explorer were the top turned in vehicles, and even if you were to assume every single vehicle turned in was an F-150 it wouldn't wipe out most single year production numbers. I suspect that a Cherokee that wasn't worth more than the $4500 voucher in 2009 probably wouldn't still be on the road today for you to buy one way or the other. If you want to argue the availability and pricing of junk yard motors for a few years, that's more likely, but CFC didn't really move the needle on used car pricing as 700k cars is nothing to the overall market.

That said, I had a 2000 Cherokee that I liked. The 4.0 runs forever but mine was an automatic. I worked at a Jeep/Nissan/Chrysler dealership for a bit while they were still being produced. They never made many manuals, and I don't think I've ever seen a 4 door manual. Maybe you could order one that way, but I never saw one on the lot or in the service bay. I didn't work there all that long, though.

A quick search of cars.com shows exactly one manual XJ in the entire US. $8900 for a 2-door. https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/810103108/overview/

Not an XJ, but arguably cooler and 4-doors: https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/799152906/overview/

And that's it for Cherokees with manuals.

XJ 4 door manuals definitely exist. There were 3 for sale in my general AO when I was looking hard at picking up an XJ. I ultimately sent it on an 80 series land cruiser instead, but was sorely tempted by the manual XJ's.

[TGS]

This is what gets me about a certain large 2A organization: They consider as their allies politicians who are not trying to help, just that they aren't trying to hurt. It's sort of like saying "I guess he loves me, because he sits on the couch all the time, watching sports/porn and he doesn't smack me around."

So as long as the 2A community isn't being beaten on, it's all good, in their estimation.


If we only consider people that agree with us 100% as our allies, we'll quickly run out of friends who don't want to smack us around. We need more education on suppressors. I've been personally invested in that effort for the past decade. We've worked very closely with American Suppressor Association on that effort (their president is good friend of mine).

It's harder to make phones ring on an issue that fewer gun owners are willing to take action on. We're working on that, but it's not where we are on other issues (stopping gun bans, national reciprocity, etc.).

Josh has a point.

You don't advance your interests by only engaging the people who already share your interests.

[BehindBlueI's]

Josh has a point.

You don't advance your interests by only engaging the people who already share your interests.

I don't think this interest will be advanced. While appreciating Josh's effort, I think it's quixotic as long as the people who care about suppressors are also the same people who pull the (R) handle no matter what because they aren't (D). (R) has no reason to risk other's support for your pet project when you'll support them anyway and the odd (D) has zero reason to cross the party line since there will be no payoff. The notion two thugs in NY are going to add any weight to that equation seems far fetched to me, which was the context that brought this into the thread.

[BehindBlueI's]

As far as Shotspotter and suppressors:

2017 SEC filing:


Proposed legislation that would ease restrictions on the purchase of suppressors could impact our business.

Legislation known as the Hearing Protection Act, or the HPA, was recently introduced in the U.S. Congress. If adopted, the HPA would ease restrictions on the sale of suppressors designed to reduce the noise related to gunshots and ultimately could lead to increased use of gun suppressors in urban gun crime. While we believe that our technology would capture gunshots fired with a suppressor in some cases, widespread use of suppressors could impact the effectiveness of our solutions or require us to make potentially costly modifications to our technology, either of which could have an adverse impact on our business.

2019 FAQ:


5. Does ShotSpotter detect gunshots from gun silencers?
Yes, it does. “Silencers” are more accurately called suppressors as they suppress the
impulsive sound of gunfire, but do not wholly eliminate it. The ShotSpotter sensors are
designed to pick up the sound of gunfire from suppressors, but it does make it more
challenging.


From what reading I could find it sounds like they tested it after the 2017 statement Josh linked and determined it worked but not as well unless they increased the sensor density, which would increase costs.

I don't know what it can or can't do, but I've seen precious few systems sold to LE that actually did what it said on the box as easily as it was supposed to.

[Casual Friday]

A fair number of 1%ers are veterans. The head of one of the local chapters of one of the national players is a USMC combat vet. It'd be a mistake to assume that all of these guys are meth-head bubbas. It's equally be a mistake to assume they are all hardened bad-asses. There are some of each.

That misconception is similar to the folks that think Antifa is made up of 110lb soy eating male feminists with purple hair. A guy I went to school with is heavily involved in the John Brown gun club and he is a multiple tour Iraq war vet and not someone to be taken lightly.

We have HA's, Mongols, and Bandidos in the area I live, or at least within a 60 mile drive. Some of them definitely fit the degenerate stereotype but there are a lot of them that are vets and/or well educated men with degrees and businesses in various fields, including lawyers, doctors, and dentists. Doc Cavazos was an ultrasound tech IIRC, which isn't on the same level as being a doctor but it's a job most wouldn't qualify for.

[whomever]

juuuust guessing here, but I'd think 'will detect suppressed shots' has to depend a lot on what is being suppressed:

-22 subsonic from a 24 inch barrel with a good suppressor ... that's going to be pretty hard to pull out of the background noise
-9mm from a 4 inch barrel suppressed: dunno
-223 supersonic from a 10 inch barrel and a micro suppressor: I bet that works

Of course, I bet that's all true of unsuppressed, too - a long barrel unsuppressed 22 rifle is going to be harder to hear than a 18 inch barreled 308 or whatever.

IIRC from reading the marketing blurbs when shotspotter came out (so that's a yuuuuge disclaimer) part of their algorithm for distinguishing gunfire from backfires/fireworks/whatever was the combo of muzzle blast+sonic boom ... but that would only work where it was a supersonic round plus, I'd guess, a long enough bullet trajectory to generate sonic boom noise, i.e. a shot at arms length wouldn't have much time to be sonic booming. There were also signification challenges from multipath effects in urban areas (where the noise bounces off multiple buildings, so you get signals from one shot arriving at the sensor spread out in time, which makes location a lot harder to do

If anyone sees a more current writeup, please share..

[joshs]

juuuust guessing here, but I'd think 'will detect suppressed shots' has to depend a lot on what is being suppressed:

-22 subsonic from a 24 inch barrel with a good suppressor ... that's going to be pretty hard to pull out of the background noise
-9mm from a 4 inch barrel suppressed: dunno
-223 supersonic from a 10 inch barrel and a micro suppressor: I bet that works

Of course, I bet that's all true of unsuppressed, too - a long barrel unsuppressed 22 rifle is going to be harder to hear than a 18 inch barreled 308 or whatever.

IIRC from reading the marketing blurbs when shotspotter came out (so that's a yuuuuge disclaimer) part of their algorithm for distinguishing gunfire from backfires/fireworks/whatever was the combo of muzzle blast+sonic boom ... but that would only work where it was a supersonic round plus, I'd guess, a long enough bullet trajectory to generate sonic boom noise, i.e. a shot at arms length wouldn't have much time to be sonic booming. There were also signification challenges from multipath effects in urban areas (where the noise bounces off multiple buildings, so you get signals from one shot arriving at the sensor spread out in time, which makes location a lot harder to do

If anyone sees a more current writeup, please share..

The same problems exist with unsuppressed gunfire inside of structures or vehicles (similar effects to using a suppressor). Even the existence of certain barriers may confuse the arrays if they aren't of adequate density.

Even subsonic projectiles generate sound waves as they travel through the air. I believe I even have data that, from the target's viewpoint (earpoint?), a subsonic projectile sound wave is louder than (and basically indistinguishable from) the sound at the muzzle of even unsuppressed gunfire. This happens at a shorter distance than I thought it would (only a few meters). This is why most of the "victims will be able to hear the attack better" line of argument is nonsense. Unlike our ears, the ShotSpotter arrays can (at least in theory) distinguish between the separate sound waves, even when the projectile is not supersonic.

[DpdG]

XJ 4 door manuals definitely exist. There were 3 for sale in my general AO when I was looking hard at picking up an XJ. I ultimately sent it on an 80 series land cruiser instead, but was sorely tempted by the manual XJ's.

In 2004 I bought a used 1999 4dr/5speed with the 4.0 and very few other options (manual locks and crank windows)- It had 65k on it when I bought it and 190k when I sold it in 2010. That thing was the best vehicle I've ever had- the only non-wear item repairs I had to do was an AC compressor. Unfortunately the rust on the floor pan won the battle, as it took out the structure where the lower suspension links attached. Northeast is hell on vehicles.

[BehindBlueI's]

XJ 4 door manuals definitely exist. There were 3 for sale in my general AO when I was looking hard at picking up an XJ. I ultimately sent it on an 80 series land cruiser instead, but was sorely tempted by the manual XJ's.

I wonder if there are build numbers anywhere to see how many were actually produced.

[That Guy]

The Yakusa actually register with the authorities, which is damned hard for me to understand.


Say what?


XJ 4 door manuals definitely exist.

The manual transmissions in XJ's and MJ's, as well as the diesel engines that are in some of the ones available outside the US, were French made. While I'm not the most knowledgeable person in the world when it comes to motor vehicles, neither would inspire much confidence in me. (I've heard that in order to replace the starter engine in one of those diesels, you need to pretty much tear down the entire engine.)

I'd love a not-beat-to-hell, non-ridiculous milage XJ myself, but make mine an American automatic transmission and the 4.0 litre V6.

[trailrunner]

IIRC from reading the marketing blurbs when shotspotter came out (so that's a yuuuuge disclaimer) part of their algorithm for distinguishing gunfire from backfires/fireworks/whatever was the combo of muzzle blast+sonic boom ... but that would only work where it was a supersonic round plus, I'd guess, a long enough bullet trajectory to generate sonic boom noise, i.e. a shot at arms length wouldn't have much time to be sonic booming. There were also signification challenges from multipath effects in urban areas (where the noise bounces off multiple buildings, so you get signals from one shot arriving at the sensor spread out in time, which makes location a lot harder to do


When I was developing IR sensors to detect gunshots (and other weapons), I had numerous discussions with the labs and companies developing acoustic sensors. All of the above is generally correct. Acoustic sensors are pretty simple (they are just microphones), and the only information they get is amplitude vs time. An advantage they have is that they can sample at a high rate, but it's still only a single channel. To compensate fo this, they use directional microphones, or spatially dispersed arrays. The latter is necessary to get location. Microphones are relatively inexpensive, so they can compensate somewhat with quantity. The signal processing is relatively straightforward (says the guy who never had to write the code), but reliable operation in noisy, complex environments is indeed one of the biggest challenges.

For IR sensors, some places claimed that they could classify the weapon type (i.e., determine the caliber) based on the signature. I'm not sure how well that would work for acoustic sensors, or if it's even important. Assuming that you know range (a fair assumption), a simple measurement of amplitude could probably discriminate between pistols and long guns.

[Welder]

WARNING - Thread drift / But it's GD and I'm not the first so don't read if ya don't want to :)



XJ 4 door manuals definitely exist. There were 3 for sale in my general AO when I was looking hard at picking up an XJ. I ultimately sent it on an 80 series land cruiser instead, but was sorely tempted by the manual XJ's.

I used to work as a mechanic at a Dodge / Jeep dealership back in '00 and '01. I got to drive a few XJ's with the 5-speed, and I liked them enough that in '05 I found one online and spent a full day driving to and from Raleigh NC to get it. It had 60k miles on it, was gray, and was the Sport model which I liked best. 4WD, 4D, Power windows etc, not stripped down. It was an '01, last year of XJ production, and I remember paying $10k for it which was the most I'd ever paid for a vehicle and still near the most expensive one I've bought (I have this curse of hating to buy something already working when I can easily enough buy something that needs work, fix it myself, and feel like I've saved $$).

It got an honest 25 MPG on the highway, 20 around town, like clockwork, for the 10 years I owned it. I never had problems with the transmission or clutch. It was a little notchy and the synchros needed time, so you didn't speed-shift it. Because of this, the automatic-equipped XJ's were light-years faster than the manuals. For the time, they were a genuinely quick SUV. All of the manual XJ's I drove seemed to be just OK on power...the 4.0 was well-suited to the automatic that Chrysler put behind it, and unlike other automatics in the Daimler-Chrysler lineup, that one was tough. But I was in my 20's and I wasn't going to own no stinkin' automatic. My XJ had some drivetrain noise, but what Jeep from that era didn't? We got them in all the time for whines from the diffs or driveshafts out of balance. Only trouble I remember having from it was that I replaced the t-stat one time as preventive maintenance and I could never get it to stop weeping at the gasket after that. I liked the last couple years of the 4.0 best because of the coil-on-plug design that did away with the distributor.

The XJ was the Jeep we saw least for problems in the dealership at that time, followed by the Wrangler. The Grand Cherokees came in for everything...none of the techs that worked there owned one or wanted one; they were very badly thought of. The Libertys were still too new when I left to form an opinion about, as was the 4.7 V8 which was replacing the old 5.2 and 5.9.

[Welder]

....4.0 litre V6.

Straight six ;)

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

I remain bothered by how they drove on the sidewalk. That's dangerous.

[BehindBlueI's]

I remain bothered by how they drove on the sidewalk. That's dangerous.

More off-roading then most Jeeps see, though...

[blues]

I remain bothered by how they drove on the sidewalk. That's dangerous.


More off-roading then most Jeeps see, though...

You saved me the trouble. :p

[Stephanie B]

The same problems exist with unsuppressed gunfire inside of structures or vehicles (similar effects to using a suppressor). Even the existence of certain barriers may confuse the arrays if they aren't of adequate density.

Even subsonic projectiles generate sound waves as they travel through the air. I believe I even have data that, from the target's viewpoint (earpoint?), a subsonic projectile sound wave is louder than (and basically indistinguishable from) the sound at the muzzle of even unsuppressed gunfire. This happens at a shorter distance than I thought it would (only a few meters). This is why most of the "victims will be able to hear the attack better" line of argument is nonsense. Unlike our ears, the ShotSpotter arrays can (at least in theory) distinguish between the separate sound waves, even when the projectile is not supersonic.

So... Take a length of copper tubing. Put a firecracker in one end and crimp the end, taking care to not break the fuse. Press the other end into a sheet of wax (as is done for gallery shooting with 209 primers). Push the wax down with a dowel.

That might spoof it, but I'm not at all interested in trying it out. I might work it into a story, though.

[Talionis]

Say what?



The manual transmissions in XJ's and MJ's, as well as the diesel engines that are in some of the ones available outside the US, were French made. While I'm not the most knowledgeable person in the world when it comes to motor vehicles, neither would inspire much confidence in me. (I've heard that in order to replace the starter engine in one of those diesels, you need to pretty much tear down the entire engine.)

I'd love a not-beat-to-hell, non-ridiculous milage XJ myself, but make mine an American automatic transmission and the 4.0 litre V6.

The French trannies (phrasing), Peugeot BA-10's were apparently considered ticking time bombs and weren't long lived in the XJ, pretty much from 87-89, they were replaced by Aisin-Warner AX-15's. The manual XJ's are definitely pretty sought after, but TBone brings up a good point that the auto in those rigs was good, and maybe a better choice.

Back on track to the thread, the pistols used look very much like suppressed .22's in profile, I'd be quite surprised if a shot tracker could effectively detect something like that, given my own experience with them.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

More off-roading then most Jeeps see, though...That's what I meant -- given the state of some NY sidewalks, I was worried the Jeep couldn't take it.

[Welder]

That's what I meant -- given the state of some NY sidewalks, I was worried the Jeep couldn't take it.

The standing joke at our dealership was that if a little snow was being called for, it was the Jeep techs that wouldn't have any work that day. Caravans, Neons, Sebrings, trucks, they'd all come in. But at least half of the Jeep owners would cancel for flurries.