Is the Sig P320 a poor mans 2011?

[Hstanton1]

I may be like 8 Natty Lites deep, but hear me out...

Seems to me like the bore axis, option for a manual safety, and relatively short/light trigger make the platform at least a decent option for someone looking to get used to a double stack "single action" pistol with a manual safety, at a lower price point than a 2011. Granted, you are probably getting less performance, but you are also probably getting more reliability than a low end 2011 like a Rock Island.

I am interested to hear what the much more experienced members of this forum think of this concept.

[Nephrology]

I may be like 8 Natty Lites deep, but hear me out...


Nice



Seems to me like the bore axis, option for a manual safety, and relatively short/light trigger make the platform at least a decent option for someone looking to get used to a double stack "single action" pistol with a manual safety, at a lower price point than a 2011. Granted, you are probably getting less performance, but you are also probably getting more reliability than a low end 2011 like a Rock Island.

I am interested to hear what the much more experienced members of this forum think of this concept.

I haven't shot a P320 so I am not familiar with their trigger, but their sudden increase in popularity in USPSA seems to suggest you have a point. I certainly believe you can get a "better" (for USPSA purposes) trigger out of a P320 than you can out of a Glock, based on the nature of the trigger mechanisms in each.

[Hstanton1]

Nice



I haven't shot a P320 so I am not familiar with their trigger, but their sudden increase in popularity in USPSA seems to suggest you have a point. I certainly believe you can get a "better" (for USPSA purposes) trigger out of a P320 than you can out of a Glock, based on the nature of the trigger mechanisms in each.

I've shot a M17 some, and for me at least its the short trigger travel that makes it so different than a glock. I like glock triggers in that I'm the most used to them, but I have definitely noticed that I have to put a bit less concentration into strong hand and weak hand only shooting with a shorter (and maybe a bit lighter) trigger.

[GJM]

The Sig 320 is like a reliable version of a 2011. Take that!

[Clusterfrack]

The Sig 320 is like a reliable version of a 2011. Take that!

It’s interesting that the two platforms I have invested multiple 1000’s of dollars in, and later abandoned are the 1911/2011 and Sig320.

[EPF]

I may be like 8 Natty Lites deep, but hear me out....

I don’t have anything of value to add but were I seeking a “sig line” this would be a STRONG contender.

[YVK]

I may be like 8 Natty Lites deep, but hear me out...

Seems to me like the bore axis, option for a manual safety, and relatively short/light trigger...

You're too deep, that trigger is like 5 miles long.

That said, cheby, who is a Limited M class with his Atlases (Atlasi? Atl-asses?) was considering shooting CO with the Legion exactly because of ergonomic similarities.

[Hstanton1]

I don’t have anything of value to add but were I seeking a “sig line” this would be a STRONG contender.

how do I do this?

[Hstanton1]

You're too deep, that trigger is like 5 miles long.

That said, cheby, who is a Limited M class with his Atlases (Atlasi? Atl-asses?) was considering shooting CO with the Legion exactly because of ergonomic similarities.

hey fair enough, like 99% of my shooting experience is with glocks, so the m17 seems shorter than that at least to me.

[Hstanton1]

The Sig 320 is like a reliable version of a 2011. Take that!

Lol, to be fair I only compared it to a Rock Island!

[RevolverRob]

It’s interesting that the two platforms I have invested multiple 1000’s of dollars in, and later abandoned are the 1911/2011 and Sig320.

Why did you leave the 320?

___

I keep wanting to think the P320 is the 'poor man's' 2011, but I'm not sure it is.

Besides I have a 2011...

If anything I'm more interested in finding the "bobbed hammer" version of the 2011 - Thumb safety, trigger that is pretty good. Keeps seeming like that's going to be a Match-Hybrid LEM HK.

[GJM]

Why did you leave the 320?

___

.

Kaboom

[RevolverRob]

Kaboom

While we’re sitting around not doing anything important -

Have you found the light LEM to be more consistent in shooting than the heavier versions or is the soft reset enough to lean TLG?

I’m thinking a “match hybrid” without the match trigger in a USP9.

[Hstanton1]

Why did you leave the 320?

___

I keep wanting to think the P320 is the 'poor man's' 2011, but I'm not sure it is.

Besides I have a 2011...

If anything I'm more interested in finding the "bobbed hammer" version of the 2011 - Thumb safety, trigger that is pretty good. Keeps seeming like that's going to be a Match-Hybrid LEM HK.

Honestly, the manual safety is probably the largest part of this thought for me. As far as a bobbed hammer 2011, would a DAO CZ even be an option? Not sure I've seen that anywhere.

[45dotACP]

Interestingly enough, the last shooting class I went to, the one dude running a 2011 had fewer problems than one of the dudes running a 320 legion X5. It was just jam after jam after jam.

Even me with my AARP ass .45 1911 was able to get through about 700 rounds with no problems.

But I guess if you have a Sig 320 and you don't deviate from the design too far and only feed it ball and you know the platform well enough to be your own armorer or pay a gunsmith to be on retainer you'll probably be fine

(snerk)

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

Interestingly enough, the last shooting class I went to, the one dude running a 2011 had fewer problems than one of the dudes running a 320 legion X5. It was just jam after jam after jam.

Even me with my AARP ass .45 1911 was able to get through about 700 rounds with no problems.

But I guess if you have a Sig 320 and you don't deviate from the design too far and only feed it ball and you know the platform well enough to be your own armorer or pay a gunsmith to be on retainer you'll probably be fine

(snerk)

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

700 rounds without an issue in a 1911?

Unpossible!

[45dotACP]

700 rounds without an issue in a 1911?

Unpossible!And with a shok-buff no less. Can't remember the last time I changed that thing, but for sure it's been beat like Ray Lewis’ wife.

Surely I'm kilt in the streets by now

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[JohnnyL]

But I guess if you have a Sig 320 and you don't deviate from the design too far and only feed it ball and you know the platform well enough to be your own armorer or pay a gunsmith to be on retainer you'll probably be fine

All depends I guess. I bought a P320 RX Full Size
- Replaced the grip with the Wilson combat carry grip so it looks like a black M17 now
- Added tungsten rods to the grip for more weight
- Replaced the OEM trigger with Apex flat trigger
- Replaced the takedown lever with a gas pedal lever
- Added a TLR-6 (makes no difference in function of the gun)

About 1200 rounds through it without one malfunction and all kinds of 9mm ammo like federal american eagle, blazer brass, fiocchi, and some local reloaded. The first 500 rounds were with no modifications to the firearm

So far it has performed like a champ.

[Clusterfrack]

Why did you leave the 320?

___

I keep wanting to think the P320 is the 'poor man's' 2011, but I'm not sure it is.

Besides I have a 2011...

If anything I'm more interested in finding the "bobbed hammer" version of the 2011 - Thumb safety, trigger that is pretty good. Keeps seeming like that's going to be a Match-Hybrid LEM HK.


Kaboom

1911s: I realized I shot Glocks as well, and they didn't have malfunctions that took minutes to hours to never to fix.

p320s: I didn't want to own guns that fired if dropped 24" on carpet. Then when they fixed them I realized that I like CZs and Glocks better.

2011s: I wasn't excited enough about shooting Open to put up with guns and magazines whose default state is failure.

[wvincent]

I may be like 8 Natty Lites deep, but hear me out...

Seems to me like the bore axis, option for a manual safety, and relatively short/light trigger make the platform at least a decent option for someone looking to get used to a double stack "single action" pistol with a manual safety, at a lower price point than a 2011. Granted, you are probably getting less performance, but you are also probably getting more reliability than a low end 2011 like a Rock Island.

I am interested to hear what the much more experienced members of this forum think of this concept.

No?
Isn't the very essence of the 1911/2011 weapon type the trigger?
I just don't see you getting there with the 320. I'm no engineer, but mechanically unpossible.

[Default.mp3]

I specifically got into H&Ks in order to have a reliable double stack gun with a manual safety that could be run single action. Not too many other options from major manufacturers I can think of off the top of my head; Sig P-series, various CZs, some of the FN options? Maybe the Beretta if you want to count the 92X variants that could be run SAO.

[OlongJohnson]

While we’re sitting around not doing anything important -

Have you found the light LEM to be more consistent in shooting than the heavier versions or is the soft reset enough to lean TLG?

I’m thinking a “match hybrid” without the match trigger in a USP9.

That basically means buying a V7 or V1+LEM kit, plus a couple bucks of springs.

I'm liking match hybrid with heavy TRS so far, which is basically TLG in a USP.

You're fully capable of swapping stuff around yourself. Buy from HK web shop. Get the range of springs, they're cheap. Experiment and go shoot the gun.



I specifically got into H&Ks in order to have a reliable double stack gun with a manual safety that could be run single action. Not too many other options I can think of off the top of my head; Sig P-series, various CZs, some of the FN options?

I've said it before. A seriously overlooked option on USPs is to turn it into a reliable 2011, if that's what you want. Pick a caliber and frame size. Buy a V1, get the SAO detent plate, silver flat spring, and a match hammer. With the match hammer, leave the main spring as V1 standard. You will have a thoroughly decent SA trigger in one of the most durable and reliable handguns ever made, with the weight of polymer, and it will cost less than any reliable 1911. Ambi safeties are available if you want. I believe the Compact safety lever is also an option on the full size frame; it sticks out ~1/10 inch less from the frame.

This could also be done with an HK45 full size, since all the fire control parts are the same as a USP. The grip is more like a 1911 grip, but you'd give up some capacity vs. a USP, while gaining a Pic rail and P30/VP9 sights. HK45s are cheap right now, or were before covid. (There's some discussion on hkpro that the HK45 stock hammer may actually be an unmarked Match hammer, but also that it may not be exactly the same. Couldn't nail it down for sure by searching. If true, you'd just need an SAO detent plate.)

[Hstanton1]

No?
Isn't the very essence of the 1911/2011 weapon type the trigger?
I just don't see you getting there with the 320. I'm no engineer, but mechanically unpossible.

Nah, you'll never have the upper limit of 2011 trigger performance with a 2011. If I recall correctly though, doesn't the Staccato P have a 4.5lb trigger? in terms of weight alone, those triggers aren't terribly different. I was mostly thinking about decent reliability and a manual safety at a lower price point than STI.

[wvincent]

Nah, you'll never have the upper limit of 2011 trigger performance with a 2011. If I recall correctly though, doesn't the Staccato P have a 4.5lb trigger? in terms of weight alone, those triggers aren't terribly different. I was mostly thinking about decent reliability and a manual safety at a lower price point than STI.

Trigger weight is just a small factor in the overall 2011 trigger.
It's the "straight thru" pull with out any pivot points or mechanical assemblies that cause resistance.
In my opinion, that's what makes it so clean.

[RevolverRob]

Trigger weight is just a small factor in the overall 2011 trigger.
It's the "straight thru" pull with out any pivot points or mechanical assemblies that cause resistance.
In my opinion, that's what makes it so clean.

The straight movement of the trigger in a 19/2011 is the hallmark of the design. BUT - flat bow triggers often do offer enough leverage to minimize disruption of the sights to the point where those guns “shoot like” a 19/2011. The flat triggers in the SAO CZs are pretty gorram good. And certainly good enough to defeat most cheapo 1911 triggers.

Of course the beauty of the trigger bow + shoe design of the 1911 is that it’s so tuneable and adjustable for length, without effecting the other end the sear engagement and weight. Pivoting triggers cannot do this by default (since they are levers instead of buttons).

[wvincent]

The straight movement of the trigger in a 19/2011 is the hallmark of the design. BUT - flat bow triggers often do offer enough leverage to minimize disruption of the sights to the point where those guns “shoot like” a 19/2011. The flat triggers in the SAO CZs are pretty gorram good. And certainly good enough to defeat most cheapo 1911 triggers.

Of course the beauty of the trigger bow + shoe design of the 1911 is that it’s so tuneable and adjustable for length, without effecting the other end the sear engagement and weight. Pivoting triggers cannot do this by default (since they are levers instead of buttons).

Agreed.
But to keep within the context of the 320 that was the OP's question.........
Old Maine saying, used when giving directions to "Flatlanders" (out of state'rs)
"You can't get there from here"
Ayuh.

[cheby]

You're too deep, that trigger is like 5 miles long.

That said, cheby, who is a Limited M class with his Atlases (Atlasi? Atl-asses?) was considering shooting CO with the Legion exactly because of ergonomic similarities.

Since there is no essentially any weight limit anymore, I am now debating between CZ and the legion for CO. I still have all the CZ guns I need and I used to shoot them a LOT. I know the gun from inside out.... However, each time I handle a X5 Legion, it feels at home. A buddy of mine who is a SIG employee told me that was the idea back in 2015. Make a Glock but make it like a 2011. The trigger is obviously different but that is not a big deal. Those aftermarket triggers that I tried on X5 Legion are phenomenal.

[HCM]

To the OP - you are drunk, but not drunk enough.

The myriad issues with the P320 aside, one of the distinct advantage of 1911/2011 pistols is the trigger traveling in a track rather than a pivoting / fulcrum trigger.

Current production STI 2011s have displayed Glock like reliability both in LE testing and in the classes where I’ve seen them run.

I guess for gun games it doesn’t really matter. For any serious use I continue to believe the P320, or at least SIGs flawed execution of the P320 still has too many bugs.
.

[Default.mp3]

I've said it before. A seriously overlooked option on USPs is to turn it into a reliable 2011, if that's what you want. Pick a caliber and frame size. Buy a V1, get the SAO detent plate, silver flat spring, and a match hammer. With the match hammer, leave the main spring as V1 standard. You will have a thoroughly decent SA trigger in one of the most durable and reliable handguns ever made, with the weight of polymer, and it will cost less than any reliable 1911. Ambi safeties are available if you want. I believe the Compact safety lever is also an option on the full size frame; it sticks out ~1/10 inch less from the frame.

This could also be done with an HK45 full size, since all the fire control parts are the same as a USP. The grip is more like a 1911 grip, but you'd give up some capacity vs. a USP, while gaining a Pic rail and P30/VP9 sights. HK45s are cheap right now, or were before covid. (There's some discussion on hkpro that the HK45 stock hammer may actually be an unmarked Match hammer, but also that it may not be exactly the same. Couldn't nail it down for sure by searching. If true, you'd just need an SAO detent plate.)That's what I did with my first handgun, the HK45. GGI trigger job, then put in a 10 USD detent plate to make it pseudo-SAO; the detent took a minute to swap, with no tools other than my SwissTool and a hammer.

The deep irony is that I've poked around just looking at other platforms, and few of the others have an easier way to get 170mm magazines than the P30/VP9 magazines. Grab the 20 rounder, slap on a +5, and it's a ~80 USD 170mm magazine, which is about the same price as the new cheaper STI 170mm magazines, without any tuning needed (although I suppose the new STI mags allegedly don't need any tuning, either). Can't do that with a DWX, P226 Legion (I've hunted around for the old P226 X5 open 170mm mags, and they don't seem to be available), or FNX (unless the 509 magazine fits?). The CZs have the Tactical Sports 26 rounders that you can slap a basepad on to reach 29 and 170mm, but then you're looking at a about a buck per millimeter; Springer Precision does have a big ass extension to make the standard CZ 75 mags reach 170mm for a decent total price, though, a little cheaper than the H&K or STI.

Another point of irony is that I literally only use 3rd party smiths these days on my gun, whether it be for maintenance or for modification.

[cheby]

....

[Bucky]

Emphatic NO. I have 70K major (many old major, 175+) through on of my STIs / SV. Doubt a P320 would hold up to that.

This is my opinion of course. Some people though a Fiero was a poor mans Ferrari ;)

[ranger]

Nah, you'll never have the upper limit of 2011 trigger performance with a 2011. If I recall correctly though, doesn't the Staccato P have a 4.5lb trigger? in terms of weight alone, those triggers aren't terribly different. I was mostly thinking about decent reliability and a manual safety at a lower price point than STI.

If that is your criteria, I am a M&P 2.0 fan and you can buy a M&P 2.0 (Compact, FS, 5 inch) 9mm TS model and throw in an APEX Duty kit to get a poor man's version. That is what I do and I have a "Gen 1" STI 45ACP and two Paras in the safe from my "Limited" days of long ago.

[Jaywalker]

I specifically got into H&Ks in order to have a reliable double stack gun with a manual safety that could be run single action. Not too many other options from major manufacturers I can think of off the top of my head; Sig P-series, various CZs, some of the FN options? Maybe the Beretta if you want to count the 92X variants that could be run SAO.
That's my reason, also, for the P30S. That and my P35, of course. Too old to change? Nah... I just don't want the Browning to end up in an evidence locker.

[RevolverRob]

Emphatic NO. I have 70K major (many old major, 175+) through on of my STIs / SV. Doubt a P320 would hold up to that.

This is my opinion of course. Some people though a Fiero was a poor mans Ferrari ;)

But let's be fair...you're spoiled for choice man.

That said, I think Clusterfrack had ~50k or so through one of his P320s (at minor PF though?) before moving to CZs. I don't know how many rounds GJM and his wife have through XFive Legions, but I would guess it's a lot.


If that is your criteria, I am a M&P 2.0 fan and you can buy a M&P 2.0 (Compact, FS, 5 inch) 9mm TS model and throw in an APEX Duty kit to get a poor man's version. That is what I do and I have a "Gen 1" STI 45ACP and two Paras in the safe from my "Limited" days of long ago.

The Apex triggers for the M&P definitely improve it considerable. The forward set-sear that move the break forward also improves the gun considerably.

___

The big thing to bear in mind since we're kind of talking 'gaming' in a broad sense is the reason why people are chasing "poor man's" 2011s, is because the 2011 isn't allowed in Combat Optics or Production. As a result, lots of folks are chasing heavy, double-stack, 9mm, guns, with light triggers and some folks (not all) want the manual safety, because they recognize stupid light triggers should have safeties associate with them. It's almost like someone should invent a straight-back striker trigger gun that is really heavy, with a subterranean bore axis and uses a common magazine *cough*HudsonH9*cough*.

[Clusterfrack]

Yeah, I had a lot of rounds through my two p320f's. I can look it up, but probably around 40k on the practice gun and 15k on the match gun. Plus a lot of dryfire cycles on the practice gun. But these were all minor power factor. Major just beats the shit out of guns. cheby tried to use CZs for Limited, and shit kept breaking on them.

The 320s seem pretty durable, but there are some design features that make me think they are more like consumables than lifetime guns. For example, the ejector is a non-replaceable part that can get bent by hard mag insertion with some base pads. Some of the action pins are inserted by press fit, and that's not going to hold up to repeated disassembly. They're good guns, and I'm guessing you could expect to get 50k+ out of one. Just don't get too attached to it.


But let's be fair...you're spoiled for choice man.

That said, I think Clusterfrack had ~50k or so through one of his P320s (at minor PF though?) before moving to CZs. I don't know how many rounds GJM and his wife have through XFive Legions, but I would guess it's a lot.



The Apex triggers for the M&P definitely improve it considerable. The forward set-sear that move the break forward also improves the gun considerably.

___

The big thing to bear in mind since we're kind of talking 'gaming' in a broad sense is the reason why people are chasing "poor man's" 2011s, is because the 2011 isn't allowed in Combat Optics or Production. As a result, lots of folks are chasing heavy, double-stack, 9mm, guns, with light triggers and some folks (not all) want the manual safety, because they recognize stupid light triggers should have safeties associate with them. It's almost like someone should invent a straight-back striker trigger gun that is really heavy, with a subterranean bore axis and uses a common magazine *cough*HudsonH9*cough*.

[RevolverRob]

Yeah, I had a lot of rounds through my two p320f's. I can look it up, but probably around 40k on the practice gun and 15k on the match gun. Plus a lot of dryfire cycles on the practice gun. But these were all minor power factor. Major just beats the shit out of guns. cheby tried to use CZs for Limited, and shit kept breaking on them.

The 320s seem pretty durable, but there are some design features that make me think they are more like consumables than lifetime guns. For example, the ejector is a non-replaceable part that can get bent by hard mag insertion with some base pads. Some of the action pins are inserted by press fit, and that's not going to hold up to repeated disassembly. They're good guns, and I'm guessing you could expect to get 50k+ out of one. Just don't get too attached to it.

I think therein lies the problem with a lot of guns these days though. I mean we know no 2011 is taking 50k without maintenance and repair, it's just that it's repairable.

I think HK is moving in the right direction making the VP9 optics ready and bumping standard capacity to 17-rounds. I said it three times last week, if they offered the manual safety VP9 here in the US. I'd have one, immediately. As it is, I really don't buy guns I'm not willing to carry and since I'm basically 70% AIWB and 30% behind the hip IWB - I prefer my guns to meet my standards of safety and I wouldn't willingly carry a VP9 sans manual safety AIWB.

[Balisong]

I think therein lies the problem with a lot of guns these days though. I mean we know no 2011 is taking 50k without maintenance and repair, it's just that it's repairable.

I think HK is moving in the right direction making the VP9 optics ready and bumping standard capacity to 17-rounds. I said it three times last week, if they offered the manual safety VP9 here in the US. I'd have one, immediately. As it is, I really don't buy guns I'm not willing to carry and since I'm basically 70% AIWB and 30% behind the hip IWB - I prefer my guns to meet my standards of safety and I wouldn't willingly carry a VP9 sans manual safety AIWB.

Why not a P30S?

[Hambo]

700 rounds without an issue in a 1911?

Unpossible!

If you run 230gr ball and use enough lube for your truck differential, anything is possible.

[HCM]

Yeah, I had a lot of rounds through my two p320f's. I can look it up, but probably around 40k on the practice gun and 15k on the match gun. Plus a lot of dryfire cycles on the practice gun. But these were all minor power factor. Major just beats the shit out of guns. cheby tried to use CZs for Limited, and shit kept breaking on them.

The 320s seem pretty durable, but there are some design features that make me think they are more like consumables than lifetime guns. For example, the ejector is a non-replaceable part that can get bent by hard mag insertion with some base pads. Some of the action pins are inserted by press fit, and that's not going to hold up to repeated disassembly. They're good guns, and I'm guessing you could expect to get 50k+ out of one. Just don't get too attached to it.

You description of P320s as “consumables” is spot on. That was exactly my impression, especially after taking the Armorers course. It’s like a bic disposable pistol.

On a side note a couple shooters in our local IDPA group have experienced the bent ejector issue you describe.

[RevolverRob]

Why not a P30S?

I already have a 2011, so no need for a cocked and locked gun, and I'm not really into TDA right now. So, only a P30S-LEM...and if I'm going LEM, I'm going USP for the better LEM trigger, the ease of setting it up and tinkering with it, and the slab-sided grips. My time with the P30 LEM previously taught me I liked the trigger, but not the 'Spider-Man' grips. I've been tempted by the HK45C, but not enough to go .45, since I already have a couple of 1911s I don't mind carrying appendix, I don't think I'd gain much with the 45C.

The VP9 has a consistent, light, trigger, with a relatively short pull, better mimicking the 1911/2011. It does have Spider-Man grips, but I do know I can shave down the backstraps and get them where I want, it's just that's one more thing I'd have to do with the P30 that I don't with the USP, if I go LEM. So a VP9 + Manual Safety would be enough for me to opt to shave the grips and get them where I want, but a P30 LEM isn't. A USP LEM with safety is kind of a sweet spot, until HK gets its shit together and bring us the manual safety VP9.

[awp_101]

What do Major and Minor equate to outside of the gaming world? Are we talking somewhere around +P or +P+ levels for Major? Is Minor just enough to cycle or closer to bulk pack like Blazer Brass or WWB? I've seen the power factor numbers but I simply don't know what they equate to outside the competition realm. I think knowing that would give some of these round counts more meaning.


For example, the ejector is a non-replaceable part that can get bent by hard mag insertion with some base pads.

Is the ejector part of the FCU? I've rented a P320 just once and only put a box of 50 through it so I wasn't looking to tear it down and examine everything.

[cheby]

Regarding 2011 reliability. I used to think that 1911/2011 is an outdated design. I changed my mind now. There are some applications that are more difficult to make them reliable (9 Major Open guns, for example. BTW, that is why top 10 guys at the Nationals shoot 38SC) but if a 2011 gun is build right it is as reliable as any other modern gun. Moreover, it is way more durable and low maintenance compared to anything that I shot before. My practice 2011 gets cleaned in 2-3K intervals.

[Eyesquared]

9 Major is hotter than most of the +P+ loads I've seen for sale, .40 major is par for the course for any factory .40 loads so far as I know.

As for disposable guns, my thinking right now is that I would be satisfied if my P320 made it to 50k rounds with good performance and immediately went into the trash. I get that some people want lifetime guns but a plastic striker fired gun is not heirloom material to me, I intend to shoot it and replace it as needed. At the end of the day a decent 2011 might last twice as long, but it'll probably cost at least 2-3x as much. It's also kind of a moot point because the P320 is mostly popular for Production and Carry Optics where 2011s can't play, and the P320 is ill-suited to Limited and Open where 2011s reign.

[Clusterfrack]

What do Major and Minor equate to outside of the gaming world? Are we talking somewhere around +P or +P+ levels for Major? Is Minor just enough to cycle or closer to bulk pack like Blazer Brass or WWB? I've seen the power factor numbers but I simply don't know what they equate to outside the competition realm. I think knowing that would give some of these round counts more meaning.


PF = velocity * bullet weight

Minor is above 125k
Major is above 165k

For 9mm to make major, that's +P+ territory. There's not much available in factory ammo that does that. The smoking hot winchester Ranger-T 127 +P+ will make major in some guns.

But, what we're talking about for Limited is .40. That makes major without much effort.


Is the ejector part of the FCU? I've rented a P320 just once and only put a box of 50 through it so I wasn't looking to tear it down and examine everything.

Part of the FCU, and that's a retarded design. Any good engineer would know better--assuming the gun was meant to last.

[LittleLebowski]

I’d rather carry a 1911 AIWB than a P320.

[Clusterfrack]

Regarding 2011 reliability. I used to think that 1911/2011 is an outdated design. I changed my mind now. There are some applications that are more difficult to make them reliable (9 Major Open guns, for example. BTW, that is why top 10 guys at the Nationals shoot 38SC) but if a 2011 gun is build right it is as reliable as any other modern gun. Moreover, it is way more durable and low maintenance compared to anything that I shot before. My practice 2011 gets cleaned in 2-3K intervals.

It's awesome that you have good guns. But, tuned magazines that need to have new springs every month, and don't work if at all dirty are not what I would call reliable.

2011s are like Ferraris, and they need constant attention to keep running.

[Eyesquared]

Part of the FCU, and that's a retarded design. Any good engineer would know better.

I'm not a good engineer, just a bad one, but I'm willing to bet it makes a lot of economic sense for SIG to simplify production of FCUs and just send people new ones (or charge them for them) if the ejectors get damaged.

[Clusterfrack]

I’d rather carry a 1911 AIWB than a P320.

Interesting comparison, and I have to agree.

I don't like guns that rely on safeties to be safe, so that counts agains the 1911 for me. But, there's the grip safety. On the other hand, there's the grip safety that may not get disengaged when you need to shoot.

Now, I've personally tested Gen1 p320s and it was ridiculous how easy it was to make them fire with an impact in the right place. This made me think very hard about what it means to have a fully tensioned striker, and I'm afraid that's now a deal-breaker for me for carry.

I'm not sure why we are thinking about AIWB as some sort of special case with regard to safe carry. Mr_White has shown that draw from strong side carry requires sweeping the side of the pelvic region and leg, while an AIWB draw is properly done without sweeping any body part. Moreover, with a wedged holster, AIWB doesn't need to cover a body part during holstering or while carrying.

[Eyesquared]

Interestingly enough, the last shooting class I went to, the one dude running a 2011 had fewer problems than one of the dudes running a 320 legion X5. It was just jam after jam after jam.

Even me with my AARP ass .45 1911 was able to get through about 700 rounds with no problems.

But I guess if you have a Sig 320 and you don't deviate from the design too far and only feed it ball and you know the platform well enough to be your own armorer or pay a gunsmith to be on retainer you'll probably be fine

(snerk)

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I think that's an interesting observation but in my very limited experience with matches, it's usually the same guys with totally busted setups that have constant problems. At that point it's pretty obvious that the gun doesn't work because the nut behind the trigger did something bad to it or hasn't shot his gun at all in the first place to even realize how busted his gun is.

At my first major match (earlier this year) I squadded with 3 other guys shooting 320 X5 Legions, for a total of 4 including myself. 2 of us had 0 malfunctions, 1 guy had 1 light strike, and the last guy had multiple light strikes on multiple stages. I actually don't remember if there were any stages he shot without a light strike. We had 4 2011 shooters, one had his pinned grip safety come undone which was a problem but I don't remember any other issues.

[vcdgrips]

I think that an S&W M&P may be characterized as "a poor man's 2011" as well when coupled with Apex FSS etc parts.

With sharp pencil, you could 2 for 1 v. a 2011 all day long to include holsters, mags etc.

[HCM]

It's awesome that you have good guns. But, tuned magazines that need to have new springs every month, and don't work if at all dirty are not what I would call reliable.

2011s are like Ferraris, and they need constant attention to keep running.

Just so people aren’t talking past each other, “2011s” are no longer a monolith, especially now that the patent has expired.

So you have:

Original /Gen1 STI 2011s - some of these guns and mags had issues. Common enough that it’s a real concern. HasHowever, some of those issues were magnified by competition tuning the guns and in the case of the mags, trying to cram extra rounds in a limited space.

Aftermarket 2011 builds - some of these are better than others but there are aftermarket 2011s that are running VERY well. For example, I hear good things about the Atlas guns.

The STI made mags, and the need to “tune them” was a huge weak point. The MBX mags seem to have been the first answer, albeit a pricey one.

Enter the Gen2 STI gun’s and mags. With STI’s patent expiring someone figured out STI needed to make big changes if they wanted to stay in business and shifted their focus to LE/GOV / duty use. STI brought Dave Dawson back and have brought the Gen2 STIs to a Glock like level of reliability.

They also revised and improved the magazines while cutting the price by half. Most notably they outsourced production of the mags to a company that specializes in magazines. Mags are apparently tricky to make properly as demonstrated by the fact that few gun manufacturers make their own mags.

How much of the STI 2011 2.0’s reliability gains are the guns and how much are the mags ? Hard to say but owners of older 2011’s have reported reliability improvements with the new mags.

Another factor is Ammo. Would the 2.0 guns that passed the USMS, LAPD/SD testing with factory duty ammo have done as well with major loads ? With joe-bobs range brass high volume reloads ?

My sample of two, a 5” 9mm marauder and a 5” .40 cal tactical have been quite reliable with factory ammo and no modifications. But I haven’t run them super hard nor to high round counts. I am acquainted with some local LEOs running STI 1.0 2011s as Duty gun’s and they have been happy with the performance. I’ve seen 2011 issues in competition but they have always involved some combination of “tuning,” mags modified for extra capacity and reloads.

Even a Glock will stop running if you “tune” it enough.

So maybe we need to clarify 2011s into 1.0, 2.0 and raceguns.

[Clusterfrack]

To me, a tuned extractor = race gun

https://atlasgunworks.com/the-ultimate-1911-and-2011-extractor-tuning-video-from-atlas-gunworks/
https://staccato2011.com/knowledge-base-2/checking-adjusting-extractor-tension/
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/283917-sti-tactical-2011-vs-staccato/

[Hstanton1]

Just so people aren’t talking past each other, “2011s” are no longer a monolith, especially now that the patent has expired.

So you have:

Original /Gen1 STI 2011s - some of these guns and mags had issues. Common enough that it’s a real concern. HasHowever, some of those issues were magnified by competition tuning the guns and in the case of the mags, trying to cram extra rounds in a limited space.

Aftermarket 2011 builds - some of these are better than others but there are aftermarket 2011s that are running VERY well. For example, I hear good things about the Atlas guns.

The STI made mags, and the need to “tune them” was a huge weak point. The MBX mags seem to have been the first answer, albeit a pricey one.

Enter the Gen2 STI gun’s and mags. With STI’s patent expiring someone figured out STI needed to make big changes if they wanted to stay in business and shifted their focus to LE/GOV / duty use. STI brought Dave Dawson back and have brought the Gen2 STIs to a Glock like level of reliability.

They also revised and improved the magazines while cutting the price by half. Most notably they outsourced production of the mags to a company that specializes in magazines. Mags are apparently tricky to make properly as demonstrated by the fact that few gun manufacturers make their own mags.

How much of the STI 2011 2.0’s reliability gains are the guns and how much are the mags ? Hard to say but owners of older 2011’s have reported reliability improvements with the new mags.

Another factor is Ammo. Would the 2.0 guns that passed the USMS, LAPD/SD testing with factory duty ammo have done as well with major loads ? With joe-bobs range brass high volume reloads ?

My sample of two, a 5” 9mm marauder and a 5” .40 cal tactical have been quite reliable with factory ammo and no modifications. But I haven’t run them super hard nor to high round counts. I am acquainted with some local LEOs running STI 1.0 2011s as Duty gun’s and they have been happy with the performance. I’ve seen 2011 issues in competition but they have always involved some combination of “tuning,” mags modified for extra capacity and reloads.

Even a Glock will stop running if you “tune” it enough.

So maybe we need to clarify 2011s into 1.0, 2.0 and raceguns.
This is a very good point. I fully understand that the newer 2011s from STI and from Nighthawk or chambers custom are every but as reliable as a glock. In my initial post I tried to specifically compare the p320 to cheaper 1911/2011 options that, in general, are less reliable than modern striker fired options like the p320. Another commenter mentioned the M&P 2.0 as another decent analogue, I hadn't considered it it because of the "mushier" although still pretty nice trigger, but the addition of some apex parts makes it a pretty interesting option IMO.

[HCM]

This is a very good point. I fully understand that the newer 2011s from STI and from Nighthawk or chambers custom are every but as reliable as a glock. In my initial post I tried to specifically compare the p320 to cheaper 1911/2011 options that, in general, are less reliable than modern striker fired options like the p320. Another commenter mentioned the M&P 2.0 as another decent analogue, I hadn't considered it it because of the "mushier" although still pretty nice trigger, but the addition of some apex parts makes it a pretty interesting option IMO.

By 2011 standards the STI 2.0/DUO guns are cheap. $2600 MSRP - LE/Mil pricing under $2k.

That is half the cost NH and less than half the cost of a Chambers.

For me the biggest negative of the M&P is the rounded grip profile vs the flatter sides of 1911/2011, Glocks and SIG X grips. Not an issue slow fire but for me it affects how the gun tracks when shot at speed. Same with the VP9, p30 etc.

[Balisong]

I already have a 2011, so no need for a cocked and locked gun, and I'm not really into TDA right now. So, only a P30S-LEM...and if I'm going LEM, I'm going USP for the better LEM trigger, the ease of setting it up and tinkering with it, and the slab-sided grips. My time with the P30 LEM previously taught me I liked the trigger, but not the 'Spider-Man' grips. I've been tempted by the HK45C, but not enough to go .45, since I already have a couple of 1911s I don't mind carrying appendix, I don't think I'd gain much with the 45C.

The VP9 has a consistent, light, trigger, with a relatively short pull, better mimicking the 1911/2011. It does have Spider-Man grips, but I do know I can shave down the backstraps and get them where I want, it's just that's one more thing I'd have to do with the P30 that I don't with the USP, if I go LEM. So a VP9 + Manual Safety would be enough for me to opt to shave the grips and get them where I want, but a P30 LEM isn't. A USP LEM with safety is kind of a sweet spot, until HK gets its shit together and bring us the manual safety VP9.

I was actually referring specifically to running the P30S (or any USP really)cocked and locked SAO (not LEM) since that's essentially what running a manual safety VP is doing. I haven't handled a manual safety VP, but I am currently practicing with a P30S and finding the safety easy to positively disengage on the draw. Seems like a lot of similar characteristics to a VP with safety that way, so was wondering if you had given thought to trying that.

[RevolverRob]

To me, a tuned extractor = race gun

So, Gen4 9mm Glocks and 1.0 M&P9s are race guns too, huh? :p ;)

[Clusterfrack]

So, Gen4 9mm Glocks and 1.0 M&P9s are race guns too, huh? :p ;)

LOLOL! What's a little brass to the face?


...I fully understand that the newer 2011s from STI and from Nighthawk or chambers custom are every [bit] as reliable as a glock.

The idea that an STI of any generation, or any 1911/2011 no matter how expensive is "as reliable as a Glock" is a head scratcher. I'm gonna bow out of this thread because I don't have a dog in this fight.

[HCM]

I was actually referring specifically to running the P30S (or any USP really)cocked and locked SAO (not LEM) since that's essentially what running a manual safety VP is doing. I haven't handled a manual safety VP, but I am currently practicing with a P30S and finding the safety easy to positively disengage on the draw. Seems like a lot of similar characteristics to a VP with safety that way, so was wondering if you had given thought to trying that.

Messed with a P30S for a while. Placement of the safety is somehow “off” vs 1911/320/M&P, tne rounded grip doesn’t track well at speed and Even for a guy who runs stock triggers 90% of the time HK triggers range from meh to suck.

[Balisong]

Messed with a P30S for a while. Placement of the safety is somehow “off” vs 1911/320/M&P, tne rounded grip doesn’t track well at speed and Even for a guy who runs stock triggers 90% of the time HK triggers range from meh to suck.

Interesting. I've never handled a 320 with safety, and it's been a very long time since I handled a 1911, but I'd love to compare one side by side with my P30S. Maybe when. Things normalize I'll rent a 1911 so I can shoot the 2 of them side by side for gits and shiggles

[HCM]

LOLOL! What's a little brass to the face?



The idea that an STI of any generation, or any 1911/2011 no matter how expensive is "as reliable as a Glock" is a head scratcher. I'm gonna bow out of this thread because I don't have a dog in this fight.

For reference, that assertion is based primarily on testing done by USMS SOG and LAPD/SD. It only applies to stock 2.0 guns with factory ammo.

I certainly would not argue that applies to all 2011 is much less all 2011 pattern guns.

Of course Glock’s become exponentially less reliable the more you deviate from stock guns and duty or NATO ammo so by that standard you could argue that 2011s are very Glock like.

[cheby]

magazines that need to have new springs every month.

Just a quick note regarding the springs. The springs that are used in 140/170mm magazines for extended capacity are designed for 200 loads/unloads regardless of the model of a gun. They are different from stock springs (And followers). Basically all are made by either TTI or Grams. If you do not replace them you will have a problem with extended magazines even with Glocks, SIG, or CZ, especially if in sandy conditions. Ask me how I know:)

BTW, Stoeger was loading his magazines not to a full capacity while shooting Limited Nationals with his Tanfo exactly for that reason.