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jetfire
03-16-2011, 03:10 PM
Why do people buy guns of questionable quality? I don't understand the logic of spending $300-400 on an (insert gun here) when for literally $100 more you could buy a Glock or an M&P. It's seriously like having someone offer you a Yugo with shot-out brakes and no clutch for $5000, but for only $1,000 more you could buy a BMW M5...and you buy the Yugo. I do not get it.

Kyle Reese
03-16-2011, 03:15 PM
It's about being an educated consumer. At the end of the day, the onus of making the correct choice falls on the purchaser of said product, be it an automobile, pistol or smoothie maker.

I hear you and agree with you though.


For some, purchasing that XD-9, Sig P250, etc will involve buying it, firing 50 rounds of bargain FMJ's through it at the range & placing it in a sock drawer until next year. They'll likely never have a problem, and the weapon will be "flawless" in their eyes.

Add a few reputable handgun classes into the mix, and their "flawless" handgun quickly loses it's proverbial luster.

Caleb, all you can do is try to point folks in the right direction. Choosing a sidearm is an intensely personal endeavor for some, and people tend to perceive any criticism of said weapon as a personal insult. It's silly, but that's the way it is.

BigT
03-16-2011, 03:16 PM
Amen to that!!!

Where I live add waiting a year or so for a license and most people being limited to two handguns , and they still buy a Taurus etc cos" it's just for self defence. If I was going to shoot competition then i'd buy something better" I just don't get it.

mc1911
03-16-2011, 03:17 PM
What's worse is for the $300-$400 they could buy a used Glock that will run just fine. But people don't know. The gun culture is unique in that unless you really immerse yourself in it, all you get is what "everyone" says, which is usually based off of the typical shooting experience, which is a few hundred rounds a year at the indoor range. Most guns will run just fine at that level of use, so unless you really want to, you don't have to look below the surface. Besides, there was a full-page ad for "name-your-brand" in the latest issue of whatever magazine, and it looked way cool.

jetfire
03-16-2011, 03:18 PM
I see it in classes a lot - people will show up with guns that can't make it through a 500 round IDPA basic class, and they struggle with keeping up so they get frustrated. It's even more frustrating when police-trade in Glocks are running around $350 on the secondary market.

ETA: mc1911 beat me to it.

jslaker
03-16-2011, 03:24 PM
I've generally seen a combination of limited budget, knowledge, and getting fed a line of bullshit by gunstore employees, personally. I know a couple of people that have had Sigmas and been happy with them because they never got shot. I knew another guy that learned to hate his as soon as he started shooting seriously.

What really blows my mind is that, in my area, XDs typically sell for more than Glocks do. I'd understand their popularity better if they were a cheap option, but it's not unusual to see XDs marked $600+ here when a G17 or G19 goes for $520. My local dealer, who is a Glock LE dealer, stocks more XDs than Glocks, and they sell the hell out of them. Boggles the mind.

Kyle Reese
03-16-2011, 03:24 PM
All of these are very valid points, gentlemen.

I think that at the end of the day it is incumbent upon each of us to look out for our fellow shooters and try to point them in the right direction. The market is incredibly saturated with all kinds of handguns, and I can understand that walking into a gunshop can be an intimidating experience for a new shooter.

The mass gun media certainly won't do it for us, nor will other uneducated (but well meaning) consumers.

Case in point- a female friend of mine just moved to Virginia, and was looking for a .40 caliber handgun for general defensive use. She calls me one day and proudly announces that she is the new owner of an XD 40 Compact, that she paid waaaaaaaaaaaay too much for at a gun show.

She's since sold it and bought a Glock 19. ;)

Pistol Shooter
03-16-2011, 03:29 PM
I hear you caleb!

I visit a few other handgun forums on the internet and I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who crow about "getting a deal" on some kind of questionable handgun.

There is also a fetish among many folks for cheap "mouseguns". Amazing.

That's one reason I'm enjoying this forum so much -- educated, informed members. :D

If I have to defend my life or my family's I want the best service caliber sidearm I can get.

Even if I have to save money for awhile to get it.

mc1911
03-16-2011, 03:33 PM
On the XD thing . . . I don't care for them just because I don't like how they feel in my hand, and I see of lot of negative comments about them on various forums, but several friends own them and have had good success. They've been through 2-day classes, close to 2k rds, and no issues. I see them regularly at local USPSA matches in Production, and I don't see any breaking down. What's with the negativity about them?

Kyle Reese
03-16-2011, 03:44 PM
XD's generally have a poorer track record in terms of long term durability thea other designs.

I know of no major American LE agency adopting them.

David
03-16-2011, 03:48 PM
I think it may be because most people who buy guns for the first time get advice from their friends uncle who knows a guy who dated the sister of a sniper from Vietnam who took out an entire village with one shot.

- OR -

They walk into the gun shop under the false assumption that those behind the counters know best. So they ask the kid for a home defense gun, he shows them what he owns which is naturally the best on the market so the uneducated shopper thinks "well if it's good enough for this skilled assassin, it must be top-shelf!". I'll take two!

- OR -

They buy whatever looks the coolest and they assume a used gun cannot be trusted. The XD to some looks better than a Glock and a cheap 1911 looks better than both since it's metal and looks like the gun Tom Hanks had in saving Ryan's Privates. Dirty Harry had a great big revolver just like this! No he had a S&W 29, yeah but this taurus sorta looks the same and it's a lot cheaper. I'll take it.

Their purchase tends to live it's life in a drawer or in the closet never to be touched until the show & tell to convince their friends they are armed to the teeth. Or on the holidays where shooting off a round into the air is considered a safe time to look seriously awesome.

Take your pick.

Kyle Reese
03-16-2011, 03:52 PM
I had my masculinity questioned by a fella from Montana who asked what I carried for personal defense. (M&P 9)

In his estimation, anyone not carrying a large bore revolver (480 Ruger) for such applications was a "sissy". :rolleyes:

While one handgun may be perfectly fine for trekking in the MT wilderness, it would be out of place / inappropriate for East Coast suburban carry.

The sad part is that this guy most likely thinks that a large bore hunting revolver is ideal for personal defense in a non wilderness CCW setting.

Joe in PNG
03-16-2011, 04:16 PM
There’s a few reasons that have lead me to do some dumb gun buying.

Personal preferences and prejudices do come into play. I went with a CZ-75b over the Glock at one time because I wanted a metal framed traditional DA with a 1911 style safety… and because I wanted to be different from everyone who carried a Glock.

Then there’s also the Kewl factor… or “why people buy Taurus Judge revolvers, or cheap knockoff 1911’s, or Deagles”. Because they think it’s a really cool looking gun, or remember that scene in “Snatch”, dude!, or whatever.

Let’s not forget bad advice on the internet. No matter how poorly designed, inaccurate, or unreliable a gun may be, it will have a vocal group of fanbois encouraging you to buy it.

And finally there is good old fashioned ignorance, and I can fill this thread with examples from my own gun buying history of time I did not do the research. One of my worst purchases was a Kel-tec PF9. It seemed like a good idea at the time- a small, slim full power 9mm that I could keep in my pocket. And then I shot the stupid, bloody thing- once, and put it right down again. Had I done my research (like borrowing my friend’s and shooting the dang thing), I most likely would have gotten something else.

Pennzoil
03-16-2011, 04:21 PM
I'll probably get dinged on this one but I think a large part of the problem is lack of integrity in gun magazines and some of the shooting shows that are promoting crap guns for advertising money. I can think of a couple of times watching Michael Bane and he's recommended cheap crap guns. Slight derail but it's the same thing with holsters. How many people have to shoot themselves before they stop making Serpa's or magazines/TV shows stop advertising it.

This makes me think of a segment from the most entertaining AAR I've read and how we need more people like Mr. Vickers. http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?235-Vickers-3-Day-Advanced-Tactical-Pistol-Course-AAR

We would eat and talk shop discussing the drills, new firearms technology and the other players in the training community. As a testament to Larry's status in the game he was literally flooded with free equipment that was sent in with a request for him to test out and hopefully endorse. Everybody wanted the OLSA or the Official Larry Seal of Approval. In fact if his truck were to suddenly explode we would all be killed by fragmentation from laser sites, optics, scope rails, cash and fabulous prizes. The survivors would have to construct tourniquets out of the free shirts people send him all of which there would be plenty of no matter how many times he generously gives away equipment for team shooting prizes.

At lunch I asked Larry if for $100,000 would he wear an awesome red cape to the range with a sponsor's logo sewn on the back and he said NO. I absolutely believed him and to me that was pretty damn impressive, given 2010 is one of the worst years financially for everyone suffering through "The Barackolypse" and the fact that I know tons of shooters that would star in "Brokeback Mountain 2:The Musical - Brokeback On Ice" for $100,000 without thinking twice about it.

jslaker
03-16-2011, 04:57 PM
I'll probably get dinged on this one but I think a large part of the problem is lack of integrity in gun magazines and some of the shooting shows that are promoting crap guns for advertising money. I can think of a couple of times watching Michael Bane and he's recommended cheap crap guns. Slight derail but it's the same thing with holsters. How many people have to shoot themselves before they stop making Serpa's or magazines/TV shows stop advertising it.


BHP-40. Duane Thomas said it was the greatest combat pistol he'd ever touched and I bought one. Next month, he said the same thing about the HK USP40 and I bought one of those, too. The month after that he said it about a third gun and I stopped reading gun magazines.

No need for you to get dinged, Pennzoil, because it's absolutely true. I don't think I've ever seen a gun magazine comment negatively on any product, other than to "dispel the myth" of some problem the product has but "really doesn't, we swear."

Gun mags are glorified infomercials.

ETA:

On the topic of purchases:

HK USP Compact .40 - My first purchase and current EDC 3.5 years later. Converted to LEM due to Todd's praise of the system maybe a year ago. Only regret is not knowing enough about terminal ballistics at the time to have bought 9mm.
SIG P226R 9mm. Included factory SigLites, 8 magazines, action job by a reputable ATL area 'smith, and some miscellaneous accessories. Practically brand new at a year old with 200 rounds down the pipe when I bought it. Paid $700 for everything. Bought as a range toy and house gun, has served that purpose very well.

I feel I've done fairly well. :cool:

Joe in PNG
03-16-2011, 04:59 PM
Why do people buy bad guns? Instead, let's ask: What bad guns have you bought, and why?



We ought to split this into its own thread.

Kyle Reese
03-16-2011, 05:02 PM
Agreed.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?423-What-bad-guns-have-you-bought-and-why&p=5798#post5798


We ought to split this into it's own thread.

LittleLebowski
03-16-2011, 07:38 PM
My buddy from the Corps. His shenanigans are always a hoot. His comments got Larry speechless a few times :D



This makes me think of a segment from the most entertaining AAR I've read and how we need more people like Mr. Vickers. http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?235-Vickers-3-Day-Advanced-Tactical-Pistol-Course-AAR

We would eat and talk shop discussing the drills, new firearms technology and the other players in the training community. As a testament to Larry's status in the game he was literally flooded with free equipment that was sent in with a request for him to test out and hopefully endorse. Everybody wanted the OLSA or the Official Larry Seal of Approval. In fact if his truck were to suddenly explode we would all be killed by fragmentation from laser sites, optics, scope rails, cash and fabulous prizes. The survivors would have to construct tourniquets out of the free shirts people send him all of which there would be plenty of no matter how many times he generously gives away equipment for team shooting prizes.

At lunch I asked Larry if for $100,000 would he wear an awesome red cape to the range with a sponsor's logo sewn on the back and he said NO. I absolutely believed him and to me that was pretty damn impressive, given 2010 is one of the worst years financially for everyone suffering through "The Barackolypse" and the fact that I know tons of shooters that would star in "Brokeback Mountain 2:The Musical - Brokeback On Ice" for $100,000 without thinking twice about it.

YVK
03-16-2011, 10:41 PM
How much do Taurus semi-autos go for on a market?
Reason I am asking is that one day I suggested to somebody who carried one of those to ditch it and get a Glock. A response I got that there was a considerable price difference and he couldn't afford that. Knowing that said person was good, hard-working kid, I felt like an ass.

MTechnik
03-16-2011, 10:42 PM
I think a lot of it is not knowing what you're looking for.

jslaker
03-16-2011, 10:47 PM
How much do Taurus semi-autos go for on a market?
Reason I am asking is that one day I suggested to somebody who carried one of those to ditch it and get a Glock. A response I got that there was a considerable price difference and he couldn't afford that. Knowing that said person was good, hard-working kid, I felt like an ass.

Fwiw, I've seen them go for $2-250. Again, knowing that police trade in Glocks go for $350-400 makes those situations sad to see.

YVK
03-16-2011, 11:14 PM
Fwiw, I've seen them go for $2-250. Again, knowing that police trade in Glocks go for $350-400 makes those situations sad to see.

I've not seen used 9mm Glocks for less than 400 around here. Maybe that kid had a point if he had gotten his Taurus for half of that. When I started my journey in this country, I lived on a budget considerably well below a poverty level. I can easily relate to people having to settle for what they can afford, and not what they want to have.

ToddG
03-16-2011, 11:24 PM
When I started my journey in this country, I lived on a budget considerably well below a poverty level.

In Russia, poverty levels you!

Sorry. Really. I cannot stop myself.

YVK
03-16-2011, 11:36 PM
In Russia, poverty levels you!

Sorry. Really. I cannot stop myself.


That's actually funny, dude:cool:.

I ate microwave food 6 days a week during my first year and a half in US; Big Mac and fries were "eating out". Took a lot of focus and, frankly, fear for the future not to send it all to hell and return to the land of 4% milk, meat dumplings and borscht.

Sorry for hijack to all; the main point of my post remains: for some folks out there, even 200 bucks difference between POS and used Glock could be money they don't have.

BigT
03-17-2011, 12:02 AM
YVK point taken. And lots of us had been there where you need to wangle whatever you need.

But probably more often I see the guy getting out of a brand new BMW wearing shoes that cost almost what my GLOCK did saying he's only willing to spend Taurus money.

Or ( and this mentatlity is not uncommon on our local forum) the guy with a collection of very expensive European hunting rifles with glass that costs almost as much saying they are GTG with a Brazilian snub.

Joe in PNG
03-17-2011, 12:38 AM
The funny thing is, I did a rough calculation on how much I've spent through the years buying guns that were not up to snuff and then sold or traded at a serious loss, and discovered I could have bought a H&K P7*.


*Which I would, in all likelihood, trade or sell a year later for something else.

dravz
03-26-2011, 11:42 AM
XD's generally have a poorer track record in terms of long term durability thea other designs.

Yeah compared to the M&P's stellar launch and all the problems with the Glock gen4's (including TLG's), somehow it's the XD that has the poor track record? Sure thing, internet. :rolleyes:

Whenever someone asks me what gun they should get, I recommend any of the modern polymer 9mm pistols: G19, XD9, or the M&P9, because they all work great. Pick the one that fits your hand the best.

The only place the XD is hated is online. But guess what, not everyone likes the Glock grip angle or the M&P trigger. Crazy, I know.

Kyle Reese
03-26-2011, 11:53 AM
I've yet to meet a reputable firearms trainer that had anything nice to say regarding the XD series, and some of the ones I've encountered in classes have had sub optimal reliability.

It's a free country, and the end user is certainly entitled to spend his/her hard earned money on whatever platform they wish. I have been very well served by Gen 3 Glock 17's and M&P 9's during the course of my shooting career.

YMMV

JDM
03-26-2011, 11:56 AM
I've yet to meet a reputable firearms trainer that had anything nice to say regarding the XD series.

Have any law enforcement agencies adopted or authorized the XD? This is usually a good indicator of what the pistol in question is made of. I don't know of any, although I haven't done much research.

Kyle Reese
03-26-2011, 11:59 AM
It is my understanding that some police forces in the Former Yugoslavia have adopted the XD in one iteration or another, but I do not know of any North American agency that had adopted them en masse for issue. No doubt some US agencies have authorized the XD for individual officer purchase, though.

Of course, I could be wildly off the mark here.


Have any law enforcement agencies adopted or authorized the XD? This is usually a good indicator of what the pistol in question is made of. I don't know of any, although I haven't done much research.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 12:04 PM
Yeah compared to the M&P's stellar launch and all the problems with the Glock gen4's (including TLG's), somehow it's the XD that has the poor track record?

Most of the problems with the M&P and Gen4 have generally been bad or poorly manufactured/specced parts. That's fixable.

Most of the problems with the XD are inherent to the design. e.g., the slide cannot cycle unless the backstrap safety is fully disengaged by design.

Unfortunately, because the 1911 also has a grip safety, people tend to think the one on the XD is the same and give that a pass even though it's performing a completely different mechanical function.

dravz
03-26-2011, 12:07 PM
Most of the problems with the XD are inherent to the design. e.g., the slide cannot cycle unless the backstrap safety is fully disengaged by design.

Because some people prefer more than just a trigger (non-)safety?

dravz
03-26-2011, 12:09 PM
Most of the problems with the M&P and Gen4 have generally been bad or poorly manufactured/specced parts. That's fixable.

And let's be honest, that's a cop-out. To the end user a gun either works or it doesn't.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 12:11 PM
Because some people prefer more than just a trigger (non-)safety?

You missed the point.

The design and mechanical function of the XD safety induces problems. The grip safety physically blocks sear movement, and the slide cannot cycle as a result. This can potentially induce failures and makes the gun difficult to operate one-handed.

I am all for additional safety systems so long as they're well designed. I can't classify the XD grip safety as a good design.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 12:12 PM
And let's be honest, that's a cop-out. To the end user a gun either works or it doesn't.

My distinction is that one of these things is fixable while the other isn't without a redesign of the weapon.

LittleLebowski
03-26-2011, 12:13 PM
Have any law enforcement agencies adopted or authorized the XD? This is usually a good indicator of what the pistol in question is made of. I don't know of any, although I haven't done much research.

FDA inspectors have. Numerous small depts have.

dravz
03-26-2011, 12:16 PM
The design and mechanical function of the XD safety induces problems. The grip safety physically blocks sear movement, and the slide cannot cycle as a result. This can potentially induce failures and makes the gun difficult to operate one-handed.


By the same logic, the trigger safety on Glocks induces negligent discharges. :confused:

You missed the point too -- the internet gives Glocks and M&P's a pass for all issues, while the XD is assumed broken beyond all recompense. You are proving my point.

LittleLebowski
03-26-2011, 12:17 PM
Yeah compared to the M&P's stellar launch and all the problems with the Glock gen4's (including TLG's), somehow it's the XD that has the poor track record? Sure thing, internet. :rolleyes:

Whenever someone asks me what gun they should get, I recommend any of the modern polymer 9mm pistols: G19, XD9, or the M&P9, because they all work great. Pick the one that fits your hand the best.

The only place the XD is hated is online. But guess what, not everyone likes the Glock grip angle or the M&P trigger. Crazy, I know.


Negative on your last. I'm very certain one of our SMEs will be along to apprise you of the fact that the XD has been submitted for large agency/dept trials and failed. Also, you are factually incorrect. The Gen4 Glock 9mms are having problems, the Gen4 40 just won a major contract with the BATFE.

Are you not aware of Vickers and Hackathorn's observations on the XD? They do not recommend it due to reliability and design problems. That's not internet hate, that's arguably the top two smalls arms trainers in the world.

JDM
03-26-2011, 12:27 PM
FDA inspectors have. Numerous small depts have.

Interesting. Thank you.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 12:30 PM
By the same logic, the trigger safety on Glocks induces negligent discharges. :confused:

No, because the Glock trigger face safety has zero impact on the internal function of the gun's action. It's nothing more than a plastic lever blocking trigger travel. It's largely analogous to the 1911's grip safety.

The XD's grip safety locks the gun's entire action from cycling when engaged. There is a world of difference between the two.


You missed the point too -- the internet gives Glocks and M&P's a pass for all issues, while the XD is assumed broken beyond all recompense. You are proving my point.

I didn't give Glock or S&W a pass. I said that the severity of the problems is different. A broken gun is a broken gun; the difference is that I see the XD as broken by design.

LittleLebowski
03-26-2011, 12:34 PM
This forum is most certainly not giving Glock a "pass."

In fact, PFC is shedding a ton of sunlight on Glock's very real problems with the Gen4 9mms, dravz.

I've found that most serious pistol shooters like new designs. Folks are excited about the new Walther PPQ and the striker fired P30 for example. Most of us are not trying to "keep a good pistol down."

dravz
03-26-2011, 12:35 PM
Are you not aware of Vickers and Hackathorn's observations on the XD? They do not recommend it due to reliability and design problems. That's not internet hate, that's arguably the top two smalls arms trainers in the world.

No, actually. I'd like to read it.

dravz
03-26-2011, 12:43 PM
I didn't give Glock or S&W a pass. I said that the severity of the problems is different. A broken gun is a broken gun; the difference is that I see the XD as broken by design.

So people who carry Glocks have to be especially careful when reholstering due to the possibility of clothing, drawstrings, etc. catching the trigger and letting loose a ND. People who carry XD's have to be especially careful when manipulating the gun after an arm has been blown off because the grip safety may prevent one-handed locking of the slide. Yet it's the Glock with the great design and the XD which is broken.

Do I believe XD's are better than Glocks? No.
Do I believe Glocks are better than XD's? No.

Do I wish the internet's disagreement with a gun's design meant something other than the pistol is broken? Yeah, pretty much.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 12:44 PM
No, actually. I'd like to read it.

I can't speak for Hackathorn, but I know that Vickers has been known to refer to it as a "Bubba gun." There are members on this forum that have taken classes with him that could probably expand on that.

LittleLebowski
03-26-2011, 12:50 PM
I'll see if I can dig up stuff posted but everyone who has trained with them has heard the same. I took the Vickers Advanced Tactical Pistol class last October and Larry had nothing good to say about the XD.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 01:00 PM
So people who carry Glocks have to be especially careful when reholstering due to the possibility of clothing, drawstrings, etc. catching the trigger and letting loose a ND. People who carry XD's have to be especially careful when manipulating the gun after an arm has been blown off because the grip safety may prevent one-handed locking of the slide. Yet it's the Glock with the great design and the XD which is broken.

One is an administrative handling issue. The other is a function issue when the user is intentionally trying to operate the weapon.

Again, I don't see the two as being the same at all.

TCinVA
03-26-2011, 01:27 PM
Yet it's the Glock with the great design and the XD which is broken.


The 9mm Glock is an innovative design that, whether anyone likes it or not, changed the firearms industry permanently. They delivered a rugged, reliable, low-maintenance handgun at a reasonable pricepoint that has a proven record of doing the job in even the most difficult and abusive circumstances.

That's generally why the Glock is considered to be a "great" design, (note use of the term "great" and not "perfect") and that's why they have a large chunk of state, local, and federal law enforcement contracts and why they are found in the holsters of a number of units within SOCOM in the US and other elite military units around the world. It's not simply marketing or kool-aid.

XD's do not have the same record of performance. People who like their XD's don't like hearing that, but it is objective reality. It does not mean that it is impossible to purchase and be happy with an XD on an individual level. It does not mean that the person who bought the XD is somehow an inferior specimen unworthy of associating with others who own guns with an objectively superior track record.

After all, we're talking about handguns here...not Excalibur. Nobody gets crowned king because of what's on their hip.

That being said, there are still certain facts in evidence that do not bend to anyone's preferences no matter how uncomfortable those facts make them feel. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences and opinion.

We will politely insist, however, that no one is entitled to their own facts.

Please keep that in mind in future conversations and do everyone the courtesy of refraining from throwing out accusations about giving "passes", or similar nonsense. If you walk through the door disparaging the contributions of others and alleging coverups, you are likely to find that your reception will be hostile.

dravz
03-26-2011, 02:59 PM
The 9mm Glock is an innovative design that, whether anyone likes it or not, changed the firearms industry permanently. They delivered a rugged, reliable, low-maintenance handgun at a reasonable pricepoint that has a proven record of doing the job in even the most difficult and abusive circumstances.

That's generally why the Glock is considered to be a "great" design, (note use of the term "great" and not "perfect") and that's why they have a large chunk of state, local, and federal law enforcement contracts and why they are found in the holsters of a number of units within SOCOM in the US and other elite military units around the world. It's not simply marketing or kool-aid.

XD's do not have the same record of performance. People who like their XD's don't like hearing that, but it is objective reality. It does not mean that it is impossible to purchase and be happy with an XD on an individual level. It does not mean that the person who bought the XD is somehow an inferior specimen unworthy of associating with others who own guns with an objectively superior track record.

After all, we're talking about handguns here...not Excalibur. Nobody gets crowned king because of what's on their hip.

That being said, there are still certain facts in evidence that do not bend to anyone's preferences no matter how uncomfortable those facts make them feel. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences and opinion.

We will politely insist, however, that no one is entitled to their own facts.

Please keep that in mind in future conversations and do everyone the courtesy of refraining from throwing out accusations about giving "passes", or similar nonsense. If you walk through the door disparaging the contributions of others and alleging coverups, you are likely to find that your reception will be hostile.

Yes, taken out of context I can see why your feathers would get ruffled over that comment, but we all know I was referring to the Glock's trigger safety and not its overall design. I completely agree with you the Glock's overall design is amazing and elegant, and is almost single-handedly responsible for the golden age of polymer pistol we are all fortunate enough to be living in. I meant no disrespect to Gaston and his creations with my remarks.

Oscar 319
03-26-2011, 03:58 PM
FDA inspectors have. Numerous small depts have.

http://images.zap2it.com/images/movie-160557/larry-the-cable-guy-health-inspector-6.jpg

I am aware of individual depts who allow officers to carry the XD (personally owned); I know of none that issue it. I personally know of (work with) a few who had carried the XD, sung its praises, then wised up after experiencing various problems.

There is nothing that will change my opinion of the HS2000/XD. There are better options. Now, if I could convince certain co-workers about the Serpa holsters....

LittleLebowski
03-26-2011, 04:16 PM
Yes, taken out of context I can see why your feathers would get ruffled over that comment, but we all know I was referring to the Glock's trigger safety and not its overall design. I completely agree with you the Glock's overall design is amazing and elegant, and is almost single-handedly responsible for the golden age of polymer pistol we are all fortunate enough to be living in. I meant no disrespect to Gaston and his creations with my remarks.

You can take it easy on the sarcasm now. Thanks.

dravz
03-26-2011, 04:21 PM
You can take it easy on the sarcasm now. Thanks.

I actually wasn't being sarcastic. Not everything has to be a Ford vs Chevy debate.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 04:41 PM
but we all know I was referring to the Glock's trigger safety and not its overall design.

Could've fooled me.


Now, if I could convince certain co-workers about the Serpa holsters....

There's a good thread about that somewhere around here. I'd link you, but I'm on my phone right now.

dravz
03-26-2011, 06:13 PM
Could've fooled me.

Look, all I was trying to do was challenge the preconceived notion that the XD doesn't even belong in the conversation because of the original question. You chose a (what I see as insignificant) single flaw in the XD and harped on it as a deal-breaker, so I found a (what I also see as insignificant) single flaw in the Glock and harped on it as a deal-breaker, to show how the sword can point both ways. I apologize for my subtlety as it obviously doesn't travel well over the internet. I like Glocks and XD's and M&P's, and I love that we have so many options.

I know it's hard to believe but people can actually like and appreciate guns from different manufacturers at the same time. Forgive me for rocking the boat, dudes. I thought on a forum about the Indians and not the arrows we could discuss how XD's get left out in the cold.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 06:22 PM
Look, all I was trying to do was challenge the preconceived notion that the XD doesn't even belong in the conversation because of the original question. You chose a (what I see as insignificant) single flaw in the XD and harped on it as a deal-breaker, so I found a (what I also see as insignificant) single flaw in the Glock and harped on it as a deal-breaker, to show how the sword can point both ways. I apologize for my subtlety as it obviously doesn't travel well over the internet. I like Glocks and XD's and M&P's, and I love that we have so many options.

I know it's hard to believe but people can actually like and appreciate guns from different manufacturers at the same time. Forgive me for rocking the boat, dudes. I thought on a forum about the Indians and not the arrows we could discuss how XD's get left out in the cold.

The reason I pointed at that flaw is because it's the most obvious one with the design. I understand why you picked out the Glock's trigger face safety, I just don't feel that it's an analogous comparison because of the extreme difference in how those features affect the operation of the firearm. One directly impacts the operation of the firearm under hard use, the other generally doesn't.

One of the reasons the XD gets "left out in the cold" is because of that aspect of the design. I was only trying to explain the specifics of why. The gun literally cannot cycle -- even manually -- when that safety is engaged. That contributes in a very real way to it not being taken seriously by serious shooters. I appologize if that irks you, but it's the reality of the situation.

TCinVA
03-26-2011, 07:17 PM
I apologize for my subtlety as it obviously doesn't travel well over the internet.


Apparently mine isn't traveling well either, so I'll be clearer:

Cease and desist.

This kind of thing:



I know it's hard to believe but people can actually like and appreciate guns from different manufacturers at the same time. Forgive me for rocking the boat, dudes. I thought on a forum about the Indians and not the arrows we could discuss how XD's get left out in the cold.

...does not contribute to the conversation, does not make a legitimate point backed by fact, and in general steers the conversation into a wall. That's not what we want to see here.

dravz
03-26-2011, 07:31 PM
Okay, have a good one.

WyoXd
03-26-2011, 09:16 PM
Hey now, my Gen 4 Glock 17 probably had more failures in the first 50 rounds than my $389 (price I paid new in '04) XD9 Service has had in 13K rounds. Granted I now am probably liking the Glock better I still have complete faith in my XD.

ToddG
03-27-2011, 12:03 AM
I've personally watched the XD tested by federal agencies and fail to get past initial testing.

While I see fairly few XDs come through class (maybe one out of every 30-40 students), I've yet to see a single one get through class without multiple reliability problems. Most often, the student ditches the gun for something else before the class is even over.

Joe in PNG
03-27-2011, 12:22 AM
Maybe they should all get CZ-75's...I kid, I kid!

Actually, until just a short while ago, I was a fan of the CZ-75. However, upon reading the facts about the inherent reliability issues with the gun, I had to either change my opinion, or take a trip up De Nile. Let’s face it, folks that teach high round count classes do tend to see a lot of guns at their best and worst.

The fact was that even though the CZ-75 I had was reliable for me did not mean the whole system was perfect. It just meant that the one I had worked. If I had used it for a major pistol class, I may have found out otherwise.

Think of it this way- when looking for a new car, when your mechanic tells you to avoid those [multiple explicatives deleted] Chrysler products*, what do you do?

*Yes, I was a mechanic. And hate Chrysler products.

Slavex
03-27-2011, 04:18 AM
To answer Caleb's original question, people buy guns for a lot of different reasons. While most people on this forum have the same philosophy about handguns, I think that's probably the minority compared to most handgun owners. Most of the handguns I own are for students to use or for plain fun. I have a few guns dedicated to competition and a couple for zombie defense. And while I don't own any I'd call "questionable" quality wise, I know that some of you (Todd) think I'm crazy for owning some of them (yes I mean the Desert Eagle).
Here in Canada I see a lot of people buying Norinco handguns as their first guns due to cost. Its a cheap way to get their feet wet, and sad to say most people like the idea if getting something new vs something used at the same price. Add in the Look Cool Factor and you get an entire other market segment.
I'm rather glad that people do buy the crap guns that are out there, it pushes manufacturers to not rest on their laurels and to stay competitive. If all everyone did was buy Glocks the handgun world would sure be boring.

LOKNLOD
03-27-2011, 06:53 PM
I had a text-fest with my sister-in-law today as she and her husband were shopping at the gunshow.

It started with "what do think of" and a couple of Taurus products listed.

Two raw thumbs later, they took home a pair of gen-3 Glocks...

Point being, the reason people end up with lesser guns is because they don't know better at the time they're shopping and fall victim to having to make a choice based on salesguy speak and a gut feel for what looks "cool" or "feels nice in my hand".

It's like car shopping having never driven a car, with salesmen who are twice as predatory and half as knowledgable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ed L
03-27-2011, 09:53 PM
I imagine it must be overwhelming for someone new to guns who knows little or nothing about them. They probably want a quick and easy answers and have no idea how qualified the people answering their questions are.

Also, being new they are unaware of what options are out there, what constitutes a decent used gun, and where these decent used guns can be found for reasonable prices--often better than some lesser quality guns when new.

From their perspective having a gun that that they cant hit that well with or one that only works 95% of the time is better than having no gun at all--which is where they previously were.

It is only after they have had it for a while that they may realize that there are other guns available that may be more ergonomic, more reliable, and that they can shoot more accurately. At this point they may decide to get something better or may insist that their gun is good enough.

wl518
03-27-2011, 11:29 PM
When I bought my first gun, my friends insisted on buy "what you like", without any real input and to that I say complete horse shit. I'd ask them hey what about "this gun", or i read about "that one", to which they all responded "just get what you like". That was probably the most frustrating experience I've ever had in shooting. If I could do it again, I'd use Google vs asking them. They've been shooting way longer than me and yes there is a chance that they could steer me in the wrong direction, but at the same time you'd figure their experience downrange would also give me insight on what to avoid. If you are a first time gunbuyer you probably don't know anything, which results in poor choices (i.e. me) and then you end up spending more vs. saving money. Knowing that, whenever any of my friends (first time shooters) ask about advice on buying a gun I give them my experience with my guns and also demonstrate their highs and lows at the range. Is it biased? Yep, but at least I can back up my points through objective data and presentation.

People need to take advantage of the internet when shopping in general these days....

Joe in PNG
03-28-2011, 01:14 AM
Perhaps the biggest reason to avoid crappy guns is that it prevents you from getting a good gun. If one was to buy an El Cheapo Supreme in .40thumpinblaster because that's what the guy in the tactical tux at the gunshow told you to get, one tends to not only spend the $300-400 on the gun, but another $100-200 in ammo, extra mags, holsters, ect. And then one finds out they don't really like shooting that gun. The recoil brings back unpleasant memories of Catholic school, the accuracy is non-existent, and every operation on the gun tends to bite, pinch, or cut something on your hand... that is if you could even get the thing to fire two shots in succession. But when you go to trade it off, they'll only give you $150 for it... after you've spent about $600 for it and all the stuff to go with it.

So, I've found out that with all the money I've lost on crappy guns, I could have bought that H&K P7 M13 I've wanted for ages.