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ToddG
05-22-2012, 11:20 PM
A few folks have asked me to talk about why I like DA/SA guns so much.

First, I'm incredibly biased. The guy who took me to the firing range for the first time in my life was an Army officer, a Ranger, and a fan of the M9. When I first got serious about competition, I was using a Beretta 92FS Brigadier. For eight formative years of my shooting life I worked at Beretta USA and SIGARMS (now SIG-Sauer). With a few exceptions while I tried out various DAO or DAO-like systems, my career with both companies revolved soundly around DA/SA guns. I was paid to advocate them and spent a lot of time thinking about their benefits.

The flip side of all that, off course, is that I have a reasonable amount of experience running DA/SA guns. I've shot literally hundreds of thousands of documented rounds through DA/SA guns of all shapes, sizes, and calibers. I was lucky enough to befriend (and be teamed with) some of the most talented and knowledgeable experts on the system like Ernest Langdon, Rob Haught, Dave Harrington, and Rich Verdi. And that, to me, is the key aspect in all of this. People who really understand the system appreciate its benefits. Many people -- including folks who purport to be experts, who've carried them on duty, or even teach on a nationally recognized level -- don't actually know how to run a DA/SA optimally.

I've shot and carried, at various times and in order of experience: DA/SA, SFA, LEM, DAK, DAO and SAO pistols. Nothing in this set of posts is intended to suggest that I think the DA/SA is the only option or even universally the best option. My goal is simply to point out that it's a much better option than many people give credit.

ToddG
05-22-2012, 11:20 PM
Like any system, the DA/SA has pros and cons. Let's start with the cons, because they're far more popular on the internet. :cool:

1. The DA pull is harder to shoot well compared to SFA/SAO/DAO/whatever. I cannot say that's wrong. All else being equal, having an 8-10# first pull is, from a pure performance standpoint, a disadvantage over having a 3-5# first shot. You can train to overcome it -- both IDPA and USPSA have had multiple national titles won with DA/SA guns -- but it does require proper training and as mentioned previously that training can be hard to find even among otherwise well known instructors.

2. The "DA-to-SA transition" is harder to shoot well compared to SFA/SAO/DAO/whatever. Again, I cannot say that's wrong. In fact, in my experience it's actually the first SA shot, not the DA shot, that tends to be the most trouble for DA/SA shooters and especially for experienced DA/SA shooters. Again, it's not massive nor impossible to overcome, but even a small disadvantage that requires dedicated time to answer is still a disadvantage.

3. Shooter needs to remember to decock. I almost hate to list this because I honestly believe it is 100% the fault of the instructor when it happens, but still in fairness it is a step that SFA/DAO guns do not need.

Now for the pro's:

1. Safety coming out of the holster. A DA/SA gun is always ready to fire as soon as the trigger is pulled with no need to disengage a safety (no need... that doesn't prevent some people from carrying safety-on or being mandated to carry that way). But by dint of a trigger pull that is both longer and heavier than most other actions, there is far more tactile feedback that the trigger is being pulled in between the start of inadvertent unintentional movement and the Big Loud Noise. We've lost sight of this as a community with the prevalence of ever lighter and shorter SFA triggers and candidly I doubt we'll see the pendulum swing back any time soon. Performance on the square range -- particularly by those folks who don't really know how to shoot a DA/SA well -- is real while responding to an unknown assailant in the dark is, for most folks, merely hypothetical. The shooting community always blames the operator for every accident and never considers the role that equipment plays in making some guns more or less likely to facilitate those accidents. So for the most part, I'm barking at the moon on this. I believe it's a huge benefit. When I say it aloud in front of the mirror, there are two of us.

2. Safety going into the holster. While not unique to DA/SA guns, the benefit of having an exposed hammer that can be trapped and controlled during holstering is a significant and demonstrable safety advantage. This is undeniable. I've spent far too much time with far too many departments that have switched from DA/SA guns to SFA guns and seen first hand the result of people who holster too fast with their fingers too close to the trigger, or gear that gets inside the trigger guard, etc. Again, some will argue that it's a training issue and that mistakes are always 100% the operator, but I believe the redundant safety benefit of thumbing the hammer during holstering is huge.

3. DA/SA guns are very shootable with proper instruction and training. As mentioned above, quite a few people have delivered tremendous success with DA/SA guns. While opponents like to harp on the long, heavy first shot they seem to forget about the long string of shorter, light followup shots. Let's compare an average Glock to a typical SIG. The Glock has ~5.5# trigger pull for each shot. The SIG shooter needs to work through a ~9# first shot... and then he's got ~4# trigger pulls until he decocks the gun. With some tuning, the DA pull will still be longer and heavier than the Glock (and thus safer imo) but the SA can easily come down to the 3# range. The first shot is harder, ok. But all the rest are easier.

4. Shooting DA/SA guns trains you to shoot just about any trigger system. I consider this a minor benefit for anyone outside of the professional training realm, but the reality is that if you can master a DA/SA action and maintain your skill level with it, you can pick up just about anything else and shoot it well.

ToddG
05-23-2012, 12:15 AM
Above, I maligned some other instructors -- albeit anonymously -- for their lack of understanding when it comes to DA/SA pistols. I've experienced this first hand many times. Especially during my employment with Beretta and SIG, I had opportunity to attend quite a few training events where experienced and/or famous instructors regularly bad-mouthed the DA/SA system. For the most part, the single biggest common trait shared by those people was that they put all of their personal effort into shooting cocked & locked or striker-fired guns. Even the ones who carried DA/SA pistols on duty would regularly opt for Glocks or 1911s for their off-duty guns, their competitions guns, etc. In other words, they didn't put as much effort into mastering the DA/SA as someone who used one exclusively.

One of my favorite stories involves Ernest Langdon, myself, and some other accomplished shooters attending a private 3-day pistol class from a well known instructor and competitive shooter. Every single student in the class was shooting either a Beretta or a SIG. The instructor, who favored 1911s and Glocks, began class by explaining how the DA/SA was impossible to shoot well and even went so far as to recommend shot-cocking the pistol on the draw, throwing the first (DA) shot into the dirt as fast as possible so as to get to the easier (SA) shots. Listening to the interchange between the instructor and Langdon for the next 30 minutes was one of the highlights of the class. :cool:

Nonetheless, with the benefit of some DA/SA-specific training, it's fairly straightforward to master the gun as compared to SFA or other actions.

Get confident with the DA shot. If you read that and thought "no duh!" then skip to the next section. But the single biggest problem I see is with people who put far too little effort into the DA part of the DA/SA combination. They load the pistol, keep it in SA mode, empty the magazine without ever decocking, and repeat... never once firing a DA shot. Try to shoot long range groups DA-only. Shoot doubles (first shot DA, second shot SA, then decock) whenever you're doing serious marksmanship work. That longer, heavier trigger is teaching you excellent trigger control. Take advantage of it. Get confident that you can hit what you want regardless of whether the hammer is down or back on your pistol.


Corollary: never be afraid to decock. When I run a DA/SA gun, I decock whenever the gun comes off target with no immediately obvious target to engage next. In other words, every time I "dismount'" the gun and it moves from extension to my ready position, I decock. This follows through even into my practice. Unless I'm starting with my finger on the trigger and the gun aimed at a target (or something simulating a downed threat), every single repetition of every single drill begins with a decocked hammer down DA condition gun.


Corollary to the corollary: make decocking a habit. Whenever I hear an instructor complain that DA/SA guns are trouble because people forget to decock before holstering, I roll my eyes. The best way to fix that problem is to take the ritual you've already created for putting your gun away and purposely changing it through slow conscious repetition. When I'm on the range with new shooters -- or shooters who are having problems remembering how to operate their guns safely -- I don't say "holster." I say "decock and holster." When I'm running a DA/SA gun myself, I never think "holster," either. I always think "decock and holster." If you make decocking the gun part of coming from extension to the ready/transition position as discussed above, it's even easier. And if you ride the hammer with your thumb as you holster, you'll have immediate tactile feedback if you forgot to decock.

Practice the press-out. The press-out was literally developed around DA/SA guns. Not only will it make you faster from the holster and your ready position, every time you practice the press-out you're getting in another rep of working the DA stroke for an accurate shot. (if you don't know what a press-out is, follow this link (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3899))

Practice the reset. People talk about the DA-to-SA transition but really if you think about it, every single time you reset the trigger it is going to SA mode. So once you learn how to reset the trigger properly, you always follow that up with a light, short, smooth SA trigger stroke regardless of whether the previous shot was DA or SA. While a lot of people get wrapped up on trying to guarantee they reset as short as possible, the most important thing is to maintain contact between your trigger finger and the trigger throughout the string of fire. When people let their fingers move all the way forward to where the trigger would be in DA mode, they lose contact with the trigger and become far more likely to slap it on the next shot.


One particular drill that I find very helpful involves shooting pairs but at different targets. For example, put up a pair of 3x5 cards a few yards away. Fire a DA shot to the first card, then a SA shot to the second card. Be sure that you maintain contact between your trigger finger and the trigger throughout the entire 2-shot drill, from the moment you begin to press the DA shot all through the reset and transitioning to the next target and through firing the SA shot. Repeat ten times. You should have a 10-shot group on each card. If you're struggling to keep them all on the card with the DA shot, slow down. Practice, work it out, and make it work.


Drilling short bursts from the ready (2-5 shots maximum), always beginning in DA mode, is another great way to habituate yourself to a consistent short light-pull reset. This works your press-out, your DA marksmanship, your reset, and your SA marksmanship.

Don't get frustrated. In a world of Glock shooters, it can be difficult to keep your faith in a DA/SA gun. Every time a Glock shooter beats you at a match or in a drill at class, someone will tell you it's because you've got a DA/SA gun. But when you beat someone at a match or in a class, no one will say "it's that DA/SA gun, it's an unfair advantage!" No, then it's skill, etc. Well guess what? It's always skill, etc. And if you want your skill, etc. with a DA/SA gun to improve, you need to commit and focus and practice.

ToddG
05-23-2012, 12:18 AM
Again, nothing in the above posts is intended to suggest that the DA/SA gun is the only decent type of pistol on the market or the best choice for any particular person. I freely admit that a DA/SA gun takes a bit more time, effort, and proper instruction to master than striker fired, DAO, or cocked & locked pistols; and, it requires a bit more practice to maintain your skill level. But it's so much easier than conventional wisdom tells us, and has enough other benefits both in terms of shooting performance and safety, that I think it's a very good choice for many people.

will_1400
05-23-2012, 12:38 AM
Thanks for posting this, Todd. I can say from personal experience (what little of it I have), that DA/SA isn't as bad as so many people make it out to be. Not when I shoot a SIG measurably more accurately than either a Glock or 1911. Not sure if it's my lack of experience, but barring something really out there (once fired a cheap .22 cal 1911 that had a trigger that had to weigh 14 lbs and stacked like none other), I don't why aforementioned people whine about trigger systems (or bore axis, grip angle, etc).

YVK
05-23-2012, 12:50 AM
Nice write-up, Todd. Here is a question, and I understand it is likely unanswerable since it could be just an individual idiosyncrasy, sample of one shooter, etc.




4. Shooting DA/SA guns trains you to shoot just about any trigger system. I consider this a minor benefit for anyone outside of the professional training realm, but the reality is that if you can master a DA/SA action and maintain your skill level with it, you can pick up just about anything else and shoot it well.

Why do you think JV couldn't get it going to his satisfaction with LEM while he is obviously doing so well with DA/SA? I know he said he couldn't adjust to trigger; what are your thoughts? It seems like LEM would be an easy system for a proficient DA/SA shooter, yet we have this one sample of an opposite outcome.

ToddG
05-23-2012, 01:00 AM
Why do you think JV couldn't get it going to his satisfaction with LEM while he is obviously doing so well with DA/SA? I know he said he couldn't adjust to trigger; what are your thoughts? It seems like LEM would be an easy system for a proficient DA/SA shooter, yet we have this one sample of an opposite outcome.

Hopefully, JV can come in and answer for himself.

Speaking in generalities rather than about one specific person, I think the biggest hurdle most people face when beginning with a new system is that it's easier to change hardware than software. I've had students on the range who insisted they were doing Todd's Technique XYZ but clear as day they were really still doing it their old way. Often, it's not enough to want to create a new habit. You purposely have to let go of old habits.

The LEM is closer to a Glock than a DA/SA. The DA/SA is sort of slap-you-in-the-face different. No matter how hard you try, you can't simply run a DA/SA like a Glock. But the LEM, since it has a consistent trigger pull, can be run identically to a Glock. So while someone might think he is working hard at learning the trigger, he's not really being forced to.

mark olindale
05-23-2012, 01:59 AM
Nice write up. I have to agree with you. I like the safety factor. And I have personally noticed that I have better trigger control on my other firearms as a result of practice on a DA/SA trigger.

FotoTomas
05-23-2012, 04:11 AM
I am tempted to put my TDA hammer and decocker lever back in the personal 229 I have and play some. :)

You explained that in a way that I understand it better than back in the day when we argued on the Beretta Forum. Of course my job still requires the DAO for our Berettas and SIGs.

JV_
05-23-2012, 06:05 AM
Why do you think JV couldn't get it going to his satisfaction with LEM

Hopefully, JV can come in and answer for himself.

I'm a better shooter now than when I shot the P30. When I say "better", I'm not necessarily talking about my current ability to drive the gun, it's about having a diverse mental bank of techniques to pull from - those techniques are needed to help tune my performance. The vast majority of the variations are not ones that I developed, I picked them up from watching other shooters or talking to better shooters like ToddG and joshs.

Here is an example. With my Sig, I struggled with my first shot accuracy. I was trying to use the same technique that I use with Glocks, which often resulted in breaking the shot before full extension. With the Sig, that shot would go high. To remedy that, I try to prep 80% of the trigger on the press-out, and once I get to full extension I quickly cleanup my sight picture and finish the shot. I must have gone through 4 or 5 different variations to find the one that worked best, but I did find it. I'm not using that new technique 100% of the time, sometimes I revert back to breaking it early, but trying for that 80% technique has tightened up the results.

To successfully transition between guns, I can't assume my current techniques will transfer over with equal results. I have to be committed to trying different variations and putting in the trigger time to make that my go-fast/default action. If I'm not willing to put in the time and try different things, then switching guns is something that's fun rather than a search for something that's truly better.

oldwindways
05-23-2012, 08:13 AM
I've shot and carried, at various times and in order of experience: DA/SA, SFA, LEM, DAK, DAO and SAO pistols.

I am assuming that SFA stands for Striker Fired Action, but I have never seen that acronym before, is that correct?

ToddG
05-23-2012, 08:30 AM
I am assuming that SFA stands for Striker Fired Action, but I have never seen that acronym before, is that correct?

Correct.

DA/SA = double action/single action aka "traditional double action"
SFA = striker fired action
LEM = HK's proprietary quasi-DAO hammer fired action
DAK = SIG's proprietary quasi-DAO hammer fired action
DAO = double action only
SAO = single action only aka "cocked & locked"

Ben Stoeger
05-23-2012, 08:32 AM
Every single student in the class was shooting either a Beretta or a SIG. The instructor, who favored 1911s and Glocks, began class by explaining how the DA/SA was impossible to shoot well and even went so far as to recommend shot-cocking the pistol on the draw, throwing the first (DA) shot into the dirt as fast as possible so as to get to the easier (SA) shots.

One of the top competition shooters in the country (if not THE top guy) one gave me a similar speech during a match. I really couldn't BELIEVE that a guy that shoots guns for a living has NO CLUE how to properly run a DA/SA gun.

peterb
05-23-2012, 08:58 AM
Corollary: never be afraid to decock. When I run a DA/SA gun, I decock whenever the gun comes off target with no immediately obvious target to engage next. In other words, every time I "dismount'" the gun and it moves from extension to my ready position, I decock. This follows through even into my practice. Unless I'm starting with my finger on the trigger and the gun aimed at a target (or something simulating a downed threat), every single repetition of every single drill begins with a decocked hammer down DA condition gun.


Corollary to the corollary: make decocking a habit. Whenever I hear an instructor complain that DA/SA guns are trouble because people forget to decock before holstering, I roll my eyes. The best way to fix that problem is to take the ritual you've already created for putting your gun away and purposely changing it through slow conscious repetition. When I'm on the range with new shooters -- or shooters who are having problems remembering how to operate their guns safely -- I don't say "holster." I say "decock and holster." When I'm running a DA/SA gun myself, I never think "holster," either. I always think "decock and holster." If you make decocking the gun part of coming from extension to the ready/transition position as discussed above, it's even easier. And if you ride the hammer with your thumb as you holster, you'll have immediate tactile feedback if you forgot to decock.


On a gun that has a decock-only lever, that makes perfect sense.

How do you recommend running a gun with a combined decock/safety? I've never liked that arrangement, but have never been trained on it.

ToddG
05-23-2012, 09:05 AM
How do you recommend running a gun with a combined decock/safety? I've never liked that arrangement, but have never been trained on it.

I only use the lever as a decocker during normal use. For administrative handling, sometimes I'll engage the safety for added protection against brain farts.

Like you, I am not a fan of multi-function safety/decocker levers and avoid them when possible.

TGS
05-23-2012, 10:24 AM
Todd,

Good write up.

There's one thing that I think you didn't touch on:

How easy it is to shoot DA once you learn the technique. All the sudden, DA/SA starts looking like an advantage to a shooter that is trained on it, because you've got this awesome, true rolling break DA pull with zero stacking or inconsistency throughout the pull which actually makes it pretty easy to shoot accurately; this, compared to LEM, SA or SFA where there will always be a "wall" at the end of the trigger pull that you must compress past without disrupting the sights.

Something I've noticed. I asked you about it over dinner and confirmed, but you didn't mention here how most people consider the DA pull to be very easy (as in, easier than other triggers) to shoot accurately once they learn the technique. To have that along with the safety margin created by a long, heavy pull that you mentioned is a win-win combination.

TGS
05-23-2012, 10:28 AM
On a gun that has a decock-only lever, that makes perfect sense.

How do you recommend running a gun with a combined decock/safety? I've never liked that arrangement, but have never been trained on it.

Depends on what kind.

USP or HK45?

Slide mounted cluster**** ala Beretta or S&W 3rd gen? I can not positively/reliably disengage that safety arrangement with my firing hand thumb. The way I was taught in the USMC to cope with this is to disengage the safety upon coming into the compressed ready using the support-hand in a "knife hands" fashion, and from the motion of disengaging the safety continuing to roll that hand into the grip for the presentation. We had to carry with the safety on, and I'm not a big fan of just leaving the safety off and hoping it's still off when you need to shoot.

GOP
05-23-2012, 10:34 AM
I actually really like DA/SA guns, as nothing is as awesome as that light single action pull. On some guns, the DA is EXTREMELY smooth, which leads to amazing accuracy once you learn how to operate the trigger. My CZ 75 SP01 with a light trigger gave me unbelievable accuracy at 25m, it was awesome. Even after almost 13,000 rounds, I haven't been able to match the pure accuracy I got out of it at 25m slow fire (anything at speed is a totally different story though).

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but I know that Todd/Ben is reading this so I'll ask. What is the best way to get max accuracy out of a trigger with more of a solid break. On my PPQ, the trigger reset is unreal and the trigger is light, BUT the actual break isn't rolling, it's completely solid. Sometimes at 25m, this leads me to throw a shot a little out of the 8" zone. Any advice, techniques, etc?

167
05-23-2012, 10:37 AM
I was taught to shoot on a Glock, and sung the praises of the SFA trigger for a long time. Then I started shooting a DA/SA P226 and changed my tune. My preference if I were picking a gun now would be DA/SA.

shootist26
05-23-2012, 11:30 AM
Great write-up Todd. Can you post it to the articles tab on the main site?

I've always felt that the difficulties of the DA/SA trigger were vastly overstated. I use DA/SA in all my semi-autos, both for carry and competition. It is unfortunate some trainers and competitors are so dogmatic in their thinking.

Suvorov
05-23-2012, 11:43 AM
This is a great writeup! Thanks for giving us students of the DA/SA system something encouraging. I personally have come to really like the DA/SA system. I recently shot my first PPC match with my 92G Elite and I was frankly amazed at how well I did. I was the only guy there with a TDA auto and the only guys with SFAs that beat me were the ones who were better shots than I was.

My experience trying to master the Beretta (and to a lesser extent the Sig) has always been that the DA pull can be every bit as accurate as the follow up SA pulls. During weapons qualification with M9s one of the things that would always get me in the face of the so called "instructor" was when he told my soldiers to "throw away" that first shot. And with that, trying to get the folks to follow Army standards during qualification and fire that first shot DA was near impossible. Oddly many of the same officers and NCOs who advocated such buffoonery would have an aneurism if I suggested the first few pushups on the PT test could be done on you knees. Oh well, that is a horse that I have beaten to death far too many times.

In my opinion, in the operation world of LE/Mil/SD, good training is far more important that the latest and greatest gun and fire control system. Sadly, the first 2 and to a large extend the 3rd is driven by folks that want the best results for the least amount of time and that will always cause them to search for the better mouse trap when learning how to hunt mice is the first thing they need to focus on. In the world of competition, where guys are all at the top of their game and winners are determined by the slightest nuances in performance, then there may truly be a better gun. That said, yours, Langton's, and Ben Stoger's performance would indicate that even that issue isn't settled.

Cecil Burch
05-23-2012, 11:45 AM
Thank you for this thread Todd. It's very helpful for guys like me who do shoot better with a DA/SA, but have to listen to "helpful" lectures from other shooters how if I only went to that perfect pistol from Austria (or similar), I would be sooooo much better off.

One question - do you find that having a DA/SA guy in a class full of SFA guns has a drag effect on instruction? What I mean is, does having that different guy in class make things difficult for the others? I don't want to show up for a AFHF with my 2022 and be the one who requires you to alter how you teach (i.e. different range command - "decock and holster"). I will already be self conscious enough since I will most likely be the least accomplished shooter as it is!

ToddG
05-23-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but

Please start a different thread for questions that are specifically not DA/SA-related.

ToddG
05-23-2012, 11:49 AM
One question - do you find that having a DA/SA guy in a class full of SFA guns has a drag effect on instruction?

No. Basic technique is basic technique. Beyond that, a Glock is as different from an M&P as it is from your SIG.

jlw
05-23-2012, 01:11 PM
I carried an issued S&W 4006 on duty for seven years prior to the agency switching to Glocks. The academy was my first truly formal training with a pistol, and I was still carrying it when I went to my first instructor level course years later.

I think all of this time with the 4006 plays into my never having been able to get fully comfortable with the 1911 trigger. I know it is "lighter and crisper" than many other triggers, I like having some take-up or a longer travel on that first shot.

David Armstrong
05-23-2012, 01:53 PM
I carry my Glock because I have near total belief in its reliability and I've spent 20 years learning it inside and out. Having said that, if I had to give up my Glock I could and would go back to my DA/SA S&W Mdl 39 without any real concern. I learned to work the DA with a revolver and had no trouble transitioning to DA/SA. I do find, just like with all things, there are DA triggers and then there are DA triggers. I like the PPK but never could get happy with the DA pull on it.

Jac
05-23-2012, 01:56 PM
Thanks for writing this up, Todd. I never really had any exposure to TDAs before finding your site; it's been nice learning about them (and seeing what can be done with them).

Though I'm still second-guessing my recent Glock purchase a bit, it probably is the best way for me to start becoming proficient with a pistol; once I've got more experience, though, I'm going to look hard again at a double action. Especially now that I've got a kid, I like some of the added safety aspects. (She will be tought gun safety from a *very* early age, of course, just like I was, but every little bit helps.)

And I like the idea of DA skills translating to any pistol I happen to use.

DocGKR
05-23-2012, 02:48 PM
As background, when I was commissioned in 1986, we used the 1911--it was the first pistol I ever seriously shot or trained with. A few years later I went through the Police Academy with a Beretta 92F and also used S&W revolvers. At my first PD I primarily carried an S&W 4566 on duty (safety-on) and S&W 3913 off-duty. Later, at a different larger agency that issued P226's, I went to through the SWAT 1911 transition class and ended up using 1911's as my primary duty pistol for many years. Shortly after 9/11, I was re-introduced to 9 mm Glocks and began using them a lot, followed by M&P's in the late 2000's.

In the past 25 years, the three biggest handgun problems I have seen in the LE world are guys failing to decock DA/SA pistols when re-holstering, ND's with Glocks, and poorly thought-out 1911's that failed to run reliably.

DA/SA is certainly quite "shootable" given good training and adequate practice. However, as practice time becomes less available, I am able to retain my shooting skills longer when using a SFA or SA pistol than when using a DA/SA. For me, the best of all worlds is an SFA pistol like the M&P that also has an ergonomic manual safety.

Ben Stoeger
05-23-2012, 04:09 PM
If I could throw one thing in here (because I see people struggle with it so often)…

I think lots of the problem with the DA trigger throw comes from people having complicated techniques. The whole prep the trigger by pulling it right to where it will break and then breaking the shot thing works just fine when you don’t have a time element… but that technique isn’t very great at speed in my experience. If you just practice to pull the trigger right on through I think you will be faster and more accurate, even when shooting 30 yards or whatever.

shootist26
05-23-2012, 04:14 PM
If I could throw one thing in here (because I see people struggle with it so often)…

I think lots of the problem with the DA trigger throw comes from people having complicated techniques. The whole prep the trigger by pulling it right to where it will break and then breaking the shot thing works just fine when you don’t have a time element… but that technique isn’t very great at speed in my experience. If you just practice to pull the trigger right on through I think you will be faster and more accurate, even when shooting 30 yards or whatever.

highly agree. I found my DA accuracy and speed with my Beretta went way up after I stopped trying to stage or prep the trigger. I now think of it as a rolling trigger and perform a smooth straight pull back all in one motion.

nirol
05-23-2012, 05:01 PM
If I could throw one thing in here (because I see people struggle with it so often)…

I think lots of the problem with the DA trigger throw comes from people having complicated techniques. The whole prep the trigger by pulling it right to where it will break and then breaking the shot thing works just fine when you don’t have a time element… but that technique isn’t very great at speed in my experience. If you just practice to pull the trigger right on through I think you will be faster and more accurate, even when shooting 30 yards or whatever.That's interesting. As a new shooter, i've been told to always prep the trigger or else I'll end up 'slapping' the trigger. This is one reason I am so astonished as to how fast shooters can be accurate because it looks like they're not pausing for the 'prep' and are slapping (I know they're not).

What's the best way for a new shooter to practice slow, deliberate trigger pulls to learn....no prep, just a rolling pull? I am not trying to be fast now...but I'd like my slow technique to be the proper one to which speed can be added later (vs learning a slow way and a fast way) unless I'm missing something. Right now every shot I practice I take up all of the trigger right to where I think it will break, then try to creep past that point.

ToddG
05-23-2012, 05:28 PM
What Stoeger mentioned earlier is staging, and like him I recommend against it as a technique.

There is a difference between prepping a trigger and staging it, though the difference is subtle. Staging is taking all the slack out of the trigger, consciously pausing, and then crashing through the break; it often involves repositioning the trigger finger slightly between "stages." Prepping is simply taking the slack out but still using good trigger control through the break. Another way to look at it: staging tends to be something one does while aiming, prepping is often performed when the gun is doing something other than resting in its firing position (pressing out, recoiling, etc).

I see people stage their triggers all the time and it has nothing to do with DA, SA, SFA, etc. In fact, staging the trigger is one of the most common mistakes I see people make with Glocks. From the moment my sights give me the green light and I've decided to make the shot, my finger never stops. The trigger may stop movement once I reach the break but I keep consistently adding pressure until the Big Loud Noise.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, like all things, precision and speed are opposing forces. As we start to go faster, we give up precision. People think of that in terms of group size, but really the group size is just the result. The precision we give up at speed is precision of our sight picture and precision of our trigger technique. It's because those are being performed with less precision ("see what you need to see" and whatnot) that the group size is bigger.

Ben Stoeger
05-23-2012, 05:46 PM
As a new shooter, i've been told to always prep the trigger or else I'll end up 'slapping' the trigger. This is one reason I am so astonished as to how fast shooters can be accurate because it looks like they're not pausing for the 'prep' and are slapping (I know they're not).



I slap the trigger fairly often. I don't conciously "prep" the trigger... I just pull that bad boy right on through when I wanna pull it. My finger usually comes off the trigger between shots. There is really no reason for it, it is just how I roll.

Jay Cunningham
05-23-2012, 05:47 PM
I deal with newer shooters w/Glocks a lot, and it takes a lot of work to get them away from staging their triggers to keeping their triggers in motion with gradually increasing pressure until the shot breaks.

cclaxton
05-23-2012, 05:52 PM
One more thing I like about my DA/SA Cz-75 Shadow is that in IDPA I can compete in SSP with the same gun/trigger as ESP. The only difference is that in SSP I have to decock the trigger (manually mind you because manual safety only), and for ESP I operate it in cocked and locked SA-manual safety mode. Same trigger, same reset. Another unique thing about the Cz-75 Shadow is no firing pin block (not legal in CA) and after a hammer/trigger job this makes it the cleanest trigger you will find.

That being said, I am somewhat persuaded by Todd's comments on using a decocker to make the gun safe rather than the manual safety. Maybe I will reconsider that as an option. In the meantime, I am definitely better with the Cz-75 and will continue competing ESP until I make Sharpshooter consistently.

But Todd's comments beg a safety question: If operating a manual-safety style gun in cocked-and-locked mode (DA/SA or SA), can it be made just as safe as a decocker style DA/SA through proper training/procedures?

CC

cdunn
05-23-2012, 07:23 PM
thanks Todd,i'm kind of going through a transition right now, coming from SA and Striker fired pistols.i have recently picked up a P2000 that i'm having a little difficulty with the transition.my last range trip i got a little frustrated and switched back to my m&p.I'm going to stop bringing the m&p with me.

nirol
05-23-2012, 08:02 PM
Amazing. I've spent so much time practicing staging the trigger, on the first and subsequent pulls, erroneously thinking that was the key to me shooting better. Sometimes I've held it so long focusing on the sights and a clean break that I've actually started to tremble so I've had to back off. I was too afraid of 'slapping' it. I will work on a smooth pull, all the way through rather than staging the trigger to the break point, then pausing there until I'm ready (or think I am) for the break.

After the first shot, I try to not let the trigger all the way out, and keep my finger on the trigger...which seems to be good based on the original post...BUT, I think I focus too much on just letting the trigger out barely enough to get it to the reset point...almost like getting back to 'the perfect staged point' is my goal. Hopefully I can break this habit with a few practice sessions.

Thanks for the tips; I'm glad I found this site and registered.

Jay Cunningham
05-23-2012, 08:08 PM
I tell my students all the time to stop agonizing over their trigger press.

Serenity
05-23-2012, 08:28 PM
My only semi auto is a P226 and it is the only one I have shot more than a few rounds through. I always shoot the first shot double action, and usually only load 5 at a time (mostly to stretch my range time out). Maybe it's like learning to drive with a manual; it's the only way you've done it so you don't know it's more demanding.

I can switch between the S&W m67 and the Sig easily without seeing a change in accuracy (as long as I remember the sights are different!) I only shoot the m67 in double action, because I want to do steel challenge with it in the near future. I have shot one steel match with the Sig and was surprised to find that I had the same accuracy on the first shot as the followers. My son took a class last weekend and started running the Sig, too, and is learning the double action (he refuses to shoot the S&W in double, lol).

Thanks for posting this: I thought I was missing something really obvious somehow and didn't even know the right questions to ask. Also, I didn't know what all those acronyms meant (or a press out). It's funny how new people don't even know the jargon enough to ask questions about the jargon. :o

Ben Stoeger
05-23-2012, 08:44 PM
Amazing. I've spent so much time practicing staging the trigger, on the first and subsequent pulls, erroneously thinking that was the key to me shooting better. Sometimes I've held it so long focusing on the sights and a clean break that I've actually started to tremble so I've had to back off. I was too afraid of 'slapping' it. I will work on a smooth pull, all the way through rather than staging the trigger to the break point, then pausing there until I'm ready (or think I am) for the break.

After the first shot, I try to not let the trigger all the way out, and keep my finger on the trigger...which seems to be good based on the original post...BUT, I think I focus too much on just letting the trigger out barely enough to get it to the reset point...almost like getting back to 'the perfect staged point' is my goal. Hopefully I can break this habit with a few practice sessions.

Thanks for the tips; I'm glad I found this site and registered.


Fundamentally, all that has to happen is to manipulate the trigger in some fashion so the gun discharges. Your technique for manipulation of the trigger cannot disturb the sight alignment any more than the shot difficulty you are undertaking allows.

It is SO simple that people just don’t want to accept it.

Anything that happens before you release the shot (staging, prepping, etc) fundamentally doesn’t matter. Anything that happens after the shot is released (releasing the trigger only to the reset point, letting your finger hit the front of the trigger guard, etc) fundamentally doesn’t make any difference. Press it straight back and you are good to go.

beltjones
05-23-2012, 09:15 PM
Fundamentally, all that has to happen is to manipulate the trigger in some fashion so the gun discharges. Your technique for manipulation of the trigger cannot disturb the sight alignment any more than the shot difficulty you are undertaking allows.

It is SO simple that people just don’t want to accept it.

Anything that happens before you release the shot (staging, prepping, etc) fundamentally doesn’t matter. Anything that happens after the shot is released (releasing the trigger only to the reset point, letting your finger hit the front of the trigger guard, etc) fundamentally doesn’t make any difference. Press it straight back and you are good to go.

I think I subscribe to the "flip and press" thing even though I've never been to Rogers. Depending on the difficulty of the shot (and that is relative to my current skill level) I'll pay close attention to how the trigger breaks. On those shots I tend to miss if my front sight focus sucks, which sometimes happens if I'm in too much of a hurry.

Corlissimo
05-23-2012, 09:18 PM
Thanks Todd! This post comes at the perfect time for me as I'm expecting to take delivery of my first DA/SA pistol this weekend, a P30L V3 9mm. I'll be retiring my SFA pistol as soon as I feel comfortable with the P30 and have finished vetting it for carry. I've been wanting to do this for quite a few months and this post will definitely help me stay focused and dedicated to learning the DA/SA trigger.

In your experience, how critical is it for a new DA/SA shooter to have formal instruction in proper DA/SA trigger manipulation? I am planning on getting some formal training pretty quickly, but am concerned about the potential bad habits/techniques that I may unknowingly pick up while working with the DA/SA in the interim.



...Sadly, the first 2 and to a large extend the 3rd is driven by folks that want the best results for the least amount of time and that will always cause them to search for the better mouse trap when learning how to hunt mice is the first thing they need to focus on.

That's a great way to put it Suvarov. Gonna file that one away in my head for those times when I might be tempted to fiddle with hardware instead of focusing on my software. Thanks!

Ben Stoeger
05-23-2012, 09:21 PM
In your experience, how critical is it for a new DA/SA shooter to have formal instruction in proper DA/SA trigger manipulation? I am planning on getting some formal training pretty quickly, but am concerned about the potential bad habits/techniques that I may unknowingly pick up while working with the DA/SA in the interim.



What do you think is so mysterious about a DA/SA gun?

Corlissimo
05-23-2012, 09:39 PM
What do you think is so mysterious about a DA/SA gun?

It's not that I think it's mysterious, it's just that I have zero live fire experience with it. I do feel that Todd's post help to demystify it a bit for me, but I would like to avoid having to "unlearn" bad habits that might develop in the vacuum of solo training.

I'm actually very stoked to learn a DA/SA trigger and don't see myself going back to SFA at all. I've already made a mental commitment to this new platform so I think I'll be just fine. But, I'm also a "resource constrained" guy and would rather not waste time & money undoing bad habits that I may be able to prevent in the first place. Trying not to over-think things here, but I also don't want to miss things too. Make sense?

TGS
05-23-2012, 09:42 PM
Thanks Todd! This post comes at the perfect time for me as I'm expecting to take delivery of my first DA/SA pistol this weekend, a P30L V3 9mm. I'll be retiring my SFA pistol as soon as I feel comfortable with the P30 and have finished vetting it for carry. I've been wanting to do this for quite a few months and this post will definitely help me stay focused and dedicated to learning the DA/SA trigger.

In your experience, how critical is it for a new DA/SA shooter to have formal instruction in proper DA/SA trigger manipulation? I am planning on getting some formal training pretty quickly, but am concerned about the potential bad habits/techniques that I may unknowingly pick up while working with the DA/SA in the interim.


I'm not Todd, but I think I can comment here:

Formal instruction from an instructor that knows how to run DA/SA is obviously the best. For me, I didn't have that. The instruction I received in the USMC was staging......after throwing shots due to that, I decided there must be a better way. I kinda just figured out on my own that a continuous pull is the best method for DA.

The way I did it was to just never stop pulling the trigger and let it surprise me. When I introduced someone to a continuous DA pull, that's all I really needed to say in order for it to "click" for them. Within 30 minutes I took a 105lbs dainty little girl with her Beretta from not being able to hit 8" circles reliably at 5 yards, to reliably hitting 2" circles at 5 yards. Another thing is to not let it take too long of a pull....with a two-handed thumbs forward grip, I'm rock solid and so I can take as long as I want to pull the DA trigger. One handed, however, needs to take no more than a second for the trigger pull from start to finish otherwise the weight of the DA trigger starts to mess with my finger/hand muscles. You'll find your own limits when you start playing around with it.

I think SA is harder for most people to learn, honestly. The trigger break causes people to anticipate. For that, if you find yourself throwing shots out of anticipation (look for low-left shots if your right handed), just say to yourself "front sight....trigger press" over and over. Every time you say "front sight", make sure you're focusing on the front sight. Every time you say "trigger press," apply just a hair more pressure on the trigger. Rinse and repeat until the gun goes boom, and it should surprise you when it does. I figured that little technique out on my own, and my habits of mashing the trigger disappeared pretty quickly. As you get more time on the SA, you'll naturally develop a faster trigger break with the same control as when you started out ultra-slow. You'll also be able to combine both tasks of front sight focus and trigger press at the same time....but I've always found that when starting out it's much easier to perform necessary tasks alone before combining them, hence doing A and then B over and over until A...B become AB as one. When trying to help out Marines who were in danger of UNQ'ing, this always helped them; they would be overwhelmed by everything at once, rather than mastering one thing, and then mastering the other, and then putting them together.

So, that's what I did. It worked. It's worked for others that I've helped out. It might not be the most efficient method for teaching it, and Todd should be able to comment (which I'd like to hear). I'm sure he's got some pretty cool stuff to teach trigger control.

Ben Stoeger
05-23-2012, 09:47 PM
It's not that I think it's mysterious, it's just that I have zero live fire experience with it. I do feel that Todd's post help to demystify it a bit for me, but I would like to avoid having to "unlearn" bad habits that might develop in the vacuum of solo training.

I'm actually very stoked to learn a DA/SA trigger and don't see myself going back to SFA at all. I've already made a mental commitment to this new platform so I think I'll be just fine. But, I'm also a "resource constrained" guy and would rather not waste time & money undoing bad habits that I may be able to prevent in the first place. Trying not to over-think things here, but I also don't want to miss things too. Make sense?

I think if you just treat it like any other gun (except you have to decock it when you are done blasting stuff and then holster) you will be fine. There isn't a lot in the way of special techniques that is going to help you. You shouldn’t need to change the location of your finger on the trigger or anything like that. You just press the trigger straight back for every shot without regard to the weight or the length of the pull. That is all there is to it.

Since you are resource constrained you are probably going to do a lot of dryfire. One trick I have learned for a DA/SA gun is to draw and dryfire the gun DA, and then to simulate the SA you let the trigger forward after the DA “shot” but not enough to reengage the trigger again. After that, just press the trigger straight back into the frame to simulate a SA press. You won’t get the same resistance but I think it is better than nothing.

Corlissimo
05-23-2012, 09:53 PM
I'm not Todd, but I think I can comment here:

The way I did it was to just never stop pulling the trigger and let it surprise me. When I introduced someone to a continuous DA pull, that's all I really needed to say in order for it to "click" for them.

Thanks for the input TGS. Actually, in preparation for my new P30L I started consciously focusing on doing just this with my current SFA pistol (XD40) during both live & dry fire. Granted, it's hardly the same thing and each trigger is miles apart in feel, but i was really trying to just make my brain make my trigger finger pull through in a continuous motion. Just hoping that it will translate somewhat once I'm running an actual DA/SA trigger.

Corlissimo
05-23-2012, 10:00 PM
I think if you just treat it like any other gun (except you have to decock it when you are done blasting stuff and then holster) you will be fine. There isn't a lot in the way of special techniques that is going to help you. You shouldn’t need to change the location of your finger on the trigger or anything like that. You just press the trigger straight back for every shot without regard to the weight or the length of the pull. That is all there is to it.

Since you are resource constrained you are probably going to do a lot of dryfire. One trick I have learned for a DA/SA gun is to draw and dryfire the gun DA, and then to simulate the SA you let the trigger forward after the DA “shot” but not enough to reengage the trigger again. After that, just press the trigger straight back into the frame to simulate a SA press. You won’t get the same resistance but I think it is better than nothing.

Thanks Ben! Yeah, pretty sure there's a lot more dry fire in my future. But, I did make this move to 9mm from .40 so I could afford more live fire. I'll definitely try that technique for the SA portion of dry fire. I definitely plan on doing just like Todd mentioned: DA first shot, every time, all the time. It just seems to make sense.

Thank you again for the advice. :cool:

Packy
05-24-2012, 08:23 AM
Again, nothing in the above posts is intended to suggest that the DA/SA gun is the only decent type of pistol on the market or the best choice for any particular person. I freely admit that a DA/SA gun takes a bit more time, effort, and proper instruction to master than striker fired, DAO, or cocked & locked pistols; and, it requires a bit more practice to maintain your skill level. But it's so much easier than conventional wisdom tells us, and has enough other benefits both in terms of shooting performance and safety, that I think it's a very good choice for many people.

It is the reverse for me.

With my CZ shadow, shooting has never been easier! It is effortless for me.

But with a glock, maybe its overtravel, i am struggling just to have a decent group/hits.

ToddG
05-24-2012, 08:35 AM
In your experience, how critical is it for a new DA/SA shooter to have formal instruction in proper DA/SA trigger manipulation? I am planning on getting some formal training pretty quickly, but am concerned about the potential bad habits/techniques that I may unknowingly pick up while working with the DA/SA in the interim.

I think it's beneficial to have an instructor who at least "accepts" DA/SA guns, for lack of a better term. An instructor who wants to spend class time telling you that the gun is holding you back is not going to give you the best result. Will you still learn stuff? Sure. But it's not the same.

My firearms teaching career started, as it does for many, with CCW classes. I was part of the NRA Range's "Senior Firearms Instructors" aka SFI and we taught a class each month. The class included one hour of one-on-one range time for each student. Of all the instructors, I was the only one who carried and competed with a DA/SA gun. The head instructor, during his shooting lecture, would even tell students that a DA/SA gun is harder to shoot and less effective and just generally icky. New shooters trying to learn their DA/SA guns with the other instructors who didn't understand how to run a DA/SA gun tended to struggle... a lot. The students who ended up with me passed our informal shooting program without a hitch. That's not because I was an awesome instructor, it's because I knew how to operate the gun properly and I spent our time telling them how to shoot instead of telling them to buy a Glock.

I've taken many, many classes from instructors who didn't appreciate DA/SA guns. They were still good instructors and good classes. But I learned the most about the actually shooting part from folks like Langdon who really knew what they were doing with a DA/SA gun in their hands.

Comedian
05-24-2012, 08:38 AM
My first 2 pistols were Sig's, so i started on DA/SA. I had no interest in Glocks until i tried one and realized how much more efficient that trigger was, compared to my Sig's. I still love Sig's and HK's, but striker fired makes more sense to me. Especially for running a pistol at speed.

Corlissimo
05-24-2012, 10:37 AM
I think it's beneficial to have an instructor who at least "accepts" DA/SA guns, for lack of a better term. An instructor who wants to spend class time telling you that the gun is holding you back is not going to give you the best result. Will you still learn stuff? Sure. But it's not the same.

My firearms teaching career started, as it does for many, with CCW classes. I was part of the NRA Range's "Senior Firearms Instructors" aka SFI and we taught a class each month. The class included one hour of one-on-one range time for each student. Of all the instructors, I was the only one who carried and competed with a DA/SA gun. The head instructor, during his shooting lecture, would even tell students that a DA/SA gun is harder to shoot and less effective and just generally icky. New shooters trying to learn their DA/SA guns with the other instructors who didn't understand how to run a DA/SA gun tended to struggle... a lot. The students who ended up with me passed our informal shooting program without a hitch. That's not because I was an awesome instructor, it's because I knew how to operate the gun properly and I spent our time telling them how to shoot instead of telling them to buy a Glock.

I've taken many, many classes from instructors who didn't appreciate DA/SA guns. They were still good instructors and good classes. But I learned the most about the actually shooting part from folks like Langdon who really knew what they were doing with a DA/SA gun in their hands.

Understand this completely.
i.e. One should not expect to learn specifics from someone who doesn't understand (let alone appreciate) said specifics themselves.

It makes perfect sense that learning to do something that has, for lack of a better term, a "higher degree of difficulty" makes it easier to do similar things that have a lower degree of difficulty. Not that I think the DA/SA is harder than SFA, it just sounds like it has a moderately more involved learning curve. No big deal in my view, it just means that I might have to work at it harder than I do for SFA in order to achieve the same level of proficiency. Then again, I might also pick it up fairly easily. Guess I'll find out soon enough. :)

On the training front, my plan was to reach out to F2S for some private session work (and to see how they handle DA/SA) in the near future as I'm only a couple hours away from the NC location. Hopefully all will be good to go in that respect. Either way though, I'll still get some much needed quality instruction.

This forum, as well as PT.com, have helped to expose me to things I might not have had an opportunity to see so clearly on my own. Glad I came across both of them. Thanks again for this post, and both websites. They really cut through the BS and help me focus. :cool:

ToddG
05-24-2012, 10:44 AM
I can personally attest to Jack's (F2S) knowledge and ability when it comes to running and teaching a DA/SA gun.

FotoTomas
05-24-2012, 01:17 PM
All the greats have spoken...my two cents...

Surprise break!

I started with the M1911A1 in the Army BUT my initial Double Action training was as a cop in the academy. The double action revolver ruled and that was the tool we had to learn. No instructors were telling us about something better or different. The DA revolver was simply the only option in school.

Be that as it may they did a hell of a job teaching the DA stroke to make our revolvers sing. Smooth, steady, equal pressure on the trigger and let the shot go off as a surprise. DO NOT try to MAKE the gun go off, instead apply smooth and steady pressure UNTIL it goes off. That was what made the DA pull work for me. Since I shot a lot of revolver police competition back then the DA pull has been my best kept secret for when I was winning.

In my case the DA/SA system was not such a hardship. I started in city cop work with the revolver and then moved on to a S&W model 39, Model 59, Beretta SB and Browning Double Action. All of these had the long heavy first shot and the transition to the SA mode. It worked well for me BUT the SA mode was nothing like a good SA trigger on a M1911 or Revolver. It was a long take up, mushy type of thing to be worked through. That was when I became enamored of the DAO style when I returned to LE. My agency was issuing the Beretta 92D Centurion model and the DAO pull was a very sweet and smooth pull through like my old S&W revolvers. I fell in love. To this day I prefer it and have no real interest in switching back to a TDA pistol. The Glock platform or striker fired system gives me a DAO type of clockwork with a lighter and shorter pull through. I prefer it for competition and it is a great carry option off duty BUT I believe the DAO from a Beretta or SIG is a better option for my police job.

Having said all of that I would like to mention that the DA/SA system is one I am comfortable with and shoot well. If it was the issued gun I would be quite comfortable with it and strive to master it. It is also a better choice for some training venues. Pulling a DAO Beretta trigger four or five hundred times a day in a gun class can be a real workout on the hand. Those days I longed for the Beretta FS model to ease my suffering.

Back to the moment...Surprise Break!!!

Smooth, steady pull through and Surprise Break!!!

That is the secret to the Double Action and all other types of trigger work. Surprise Break!

My opinion and worth what you paid for it. :)

ford.304
05-24-2012, 02:07 PM
I kind of agree that Surprise Break is not the most useful term. Smooth and steady pull is what matters. I know when it's going to break the shot - I just need to not care when its going to break the shot, or plan for it, or time it, or anything like that. Ignore the break and keep the sights on target for the trigger pull, and *don't* run the trigger itself slower just because you're really aiming and taking your time on a target.

FlatDarkEarth
05-25-2012, 07:57 PM
So Todd, if you were to pick one of two CZ SP-01s as a training/home defense gun do you think you would pick the SP-01 Tactical (SA/DA, decock only) over the standard SP-01 (SA/DA, safety only)?

I ask because I'd never considered the Tactical as a serious option until I read this thread. I just defaulted to the idea of getting the standard model and running it like a 1911 and ignoring the DA option. I might prefer the safety route, but at least I'm giving the alternative some consideration. For reference, I don't own either. I have a Glock 19.

ToddG
05-25-2012, 08:42 PM
I couldn't answer that question. Both are viable options with different manuals of arms. Personally, I would opt for the decocker version assuming the DA trigger stroke was smooth.

jslaker
05-25-2012, 08:44 PM
I tell my students all the time to stop agonizing over their trigger press.

It's a funny thing, but I've personally found that the more conscious thought I put into my trigger press, the worse it tends to be. When I get hyper focused on it, my sight alignment tends to go to pot while I'm spending my time actively thinking about how I'm interfacing with the trigger surface.

If I just forget about it and squeeze straight through, I end up with hits closest to where I had intended.

It's a lot of why I got into the habit of releasing a bit further past the reset point when I was shooting LEM. I found it kept me from thinking too much about the press and made me less likely to jerk the trigger on the next press. I've carried the habit over to other action types and have found it beneficial there too (though it seemed to make the biggest difference with LEM; I suspect due to the fact that the pretravel let me start applying pressure without having the prebreak wall bring my conscious caveman brain into things).

Chuck Haggard
05-26-2012, 10:37 AM
At my job we carried the 3rd gen S&W 9mms for almost 20 years. I started with revolvers, and by then it was standard in police work to basically never use the SA, all training and quals were shot DA, so when we went to the 5906 as an issued weapon I had no issues with the first shot, weirdly enough if was the SA shots that would jack me up.

I spent time at several shooting and SWAT classes with my S&Ws, often with other guys from my job. I noted that although we took crap from guys carrying Glocks or Sigs about using what was thought to be a crappy brand of gun firing tiny little girly bullets that we normally outshot everybody else in the classes.

I competed a bit when I was still in the Guard, I found the Beretta just as easy to shoot well as the 1911s we had before, but we are talking straight off the rack guns in that regard so the 1911s in question were far from someone's custom target gun.

I did take to carrying my S&Ws on safe at all times. I saw way too many people forget to take the safety off when they wanted to shoot and found it was down for whatever reason when they didn't plan for it to be. I went so far in training as to copy one of my mentors, Vince O'Neill, in forcing the troops to run the safety on the draw stroke so that they were practiced in getting the safety off as a habit.

I also strongly believe in the weapon retention advantage given by an on-safe handgun. As Ayoob noted so many times cops are in the work of conflict management, not pure gunfighting.

That the 3rd gen &Ws double stack guns were too big for many shooters was what finally drove use to look for a DAO or SFA pistol, in the end we started to issue Glock 17s.

ToddG
05-26-2012, 11:23 AM
I also strongly believe in the weapon retention advantage given by an on-safe handgun. As Ayoob noted so many times cops are in the work of conflict management, not pure gunfighting.

I'd argue -- as someone who has very rarely carried a gun even capable of being carried on-safe -- that the benefit not only outweighs the perceived cost but that there really is very little real-world cost to begin with. Like so many things, the idea of "no safety = better gunfighting" resulted from a particular company's monstrously aggressive marketing campaign more than any real evidence of safeties getting people killed in gunfights.

The most experienced and professional operators I know -- in the traditional sense -- are all religious about running the safeties on their ARs, for example.

Chuck Haggard
05-26-2012, 11:36 AM
I'd argue -- as someone who has very rarely carried a gun even capable of being carried on-safe -- that the benefit not only outweighs the perceived cost but that there really is very little real-world cost to begin with. Like so many things, the idea of "no safety = better gunfighting" resulted from a particular company's monstrously aggressive marketing campaign more than any real evidence of safeties getting people killed in gunfights.

The most experienced and professional operators I know -- in the traditional sense -- are all religious about running the safeties on their ARs, for example.

I thought you were arguing with me, until I realized you were agreeing.

The last sentence is pure truth. Down at the DARC course I attended Uncle Rich was rabid about guys going off safe when they shouldn't have. Paul Howe has written on this same subject as well.

I understand that the gun, as in the case with the 3rd gen S&Ws for many people, might not fit your hand which makes things difficult, but people not using a safety is most often due to not training to the level they need to be at with the weapon in question.

cdunn
05-26-2012, 11:58 AM
I spent friday morning at the range with 300+/- rds doing 90%double action only,it helped some.

Carraway
05-26-2012, 12:27 PM
I just want to say thanks for this. I recently went to a DA/SA after my striker-fired pistol broke and feel that I'm doing fairly well with it. I suspect spending time with revolvers (a .22 and .38) in both SA and DA has helped.

Mjolnir
05-26-2012, 05:03 PM
Todd, after fumbling my way thru your class last year in Indy and addressing my horrid press out it dawned on me: "Doing as Todd instructed PROPERLY this would make shooting a DA/SA somewhat "easy". Well, I purchased an SIRT Pro Pistol and guess what? I shoot my Sig and DA HKs much, much better.

NowI cannot state why others' instruction didn't sink in. Hint: If they had used 2" dots and conducted the Press Out Drill as extensively as you did perhaps it would have. I'm sure of it.

Thank you for the instruction, the friendship and the excellent article!

ToddG
05-27-2012, 07:58 AM
Glad it's working out for you M! The SIRT definitely makes difference.

cclaxton
05-27-2012, 02:16 PM
When I first started IDPA, I shot SSP with the Cz75 Shadow, which means decocking manually prior to holstering the hot weapon because it is manual-safety only kind of gun. After drawing, the first shot is DA, and remaining are SA. I didn't carry this gun, so I didn't need to worry about the manual safety. Note that The first shot definitely was less accurate/slower when shooting IDPA than the SA followups.

Then, I went to FrontSight for a four-day handgun training, and they forced me to operate it like a 1911 running the manual safety on every draw. This was really difficult at first for two reasons: 1) I simply wasn't practiced, and 2) The manual safety had sharp edges and I was having difficulty using it quickly or comfortably. I solved the sharp edge problem by using a sandstone rock to gradually remove the sharp edges (didn't have the time for an armorer nor any tools as I don't live in the Vegas area). I think my thumb got used to it as well. Then, with all the practice they gave us at the 4-day training, I got used to running the manual safety. At that point, may as well shoot the Cz in ESP for IDPA and take advantage. Now, the only time I think about the safety is when I am "making ready" the gun for a COF or when re-holstering. Also, during dry-fire I sometimes forget it, but I never forget the safety on a COF. From a competition view, I am happy with the SA-only shots and content to operate the safety.

However.....

The Cz is not my carry gun. It is a 1911-style Kimber 9mm 3" barrel. It is SA-only, and I must use the safety. Every once in twenty times I remove the Kimber from the holster to put it on the nightstand or unload it, I will find the safety off. I am using a great Comp-tac OWB holster, so I know it's not the holster. However, it scares the crap out of me that I may have been carrying it without the safety on. I have no problem operating the Kimber safety and it seems to need sufficient force to take the safety off. But this is where I worry about an AD/ND. But I also have excellent discipline about the trigger finger...it NEVER goes on the trigger until I have drawn from the holster and am preparing to fire....not even during dry-fire practice.

I do LOVE the triggers on my Cz and Kimber, and I think it helps. I also own a Glock 34 (calm down Todd), and do occasionally run it in SSP. But I enjoy shooting the Cz and the Kimber better.

So now: Is safety a concern in my situation? There is some additional safety from the grip-safety, but question still stands.

CC

nirol
05-27-2012, 03:08 PM
Todd, after fumbling my way thru your class last year in Indy and addressing my horrid press out it dawned on me: "Doing as Todd instructed PROPERLY this would make shooting a DA/SA somewhat "easy". Well, I purchased an SIRT Pro Pistol and guess what? I shoot my Sig and DA HKs much, much better.

NowI cannot state why others' instruction didn't sink in. Hint: If they had used 2" dots and conducted the Press Out Drill as extensively as you did perhaps it would have. I'm sure of it.

Thank you for the instruction, the friendship and the excellent article!
I'm glad you mentioned this; I had no idea Todd came to Indy! I see the upcoming class is full, so hopefully I can make it in on time for 2013 registrations. I ordered a CZ Shadow, so I've been keeping an eye on this thread to learn more about the DA/SA. As a fairly newer shooter, I hope this thread keeps me from forming too many bad habits that Todd has to get me to unlearn next year :)

Lomshek
05-27-2012, 11:06 PM
So now: Is safety a concern in my situation? There is some additional safety from the grip-safety, but question still stands.

CC

My take - Any time a carry gun's mechanism is being operated by chance while holstered it needs addressed. A safety being deactivated is definitely an issue that needs fixed. You need to do some serious testing to see why that is happening.

At one time I had an IWB holster (com-tac) that I had adjusted to sit deeper in my pants (better concealment but slower draw). That placed the mag release button under my belt and a couple times I found my magazine had been released while I was driving. My fix was to have them make me a holster that fully covers the mag release button to protect it. No way was I going to play the "is my magazine in the gun today" game.

On topic - It strikes me that the folks who ask if the slide mounted safety on my DA/SA Ruger slows me down don't have much practice with such a safety. It does not add .001 to my draw time. In years of shooting USPSA I have never failed to work the safety. If a person feels that they are having trouble with the safety (just like with the trigger) then they need to either train more to master it, make the safety easier to manipulate or buy a different gun.

boylit
05-28-2012, 09:46 AM
my wife took delivery of her 1st pistol, a taurus 24/7 g2... this thing was designed to shoot the 1st round DA then all succeeding rounds SA (unless the round doesn't fire or the decocker is activated)...

when i 1st took her to the range to fire it, i only gave her the 4 rules and how to grip the pistol... she shot alpha (the letter A itself) on the 1st shot followed by 16 other shots within 2 inches of that at 15 meters... on her 2nd magazine, she did the same...

when she finally took her 1st lesson, they told her that the slack should be taken up and that she should reset her trigger... suffice it to say, her shots were crap at 5 meters... at 10 meters, she'd have shots that were off the board...

we took a week to analyze what changed... it was the slack take-up... it took a week to unlearn it... last saturday she took a COF round with me and some friends... she did better than half the guys with years of experience shooting the round in 37 secs with 6 headshots (= 31 secs adjusted)... compared to a best result of 32 secs and 3 headshots (= 29 secs adjusted) with most going 33-38 secs with 1-2 headshots...

so long as she doesn't violate the 4 rules of safety, i let her shoot the way she wants...

Tamara
05-28-2012, 10:14 AM
Every once in twenty times I remove the Kimber from the holster to put it on the nightstand or unload it, I will find the safety off. I am using a great Comp-tac OWB holster, so I know it's not the holster.

The quality of the holster is not the only issue. The angle at which it rides; where you put it on your belt; how much of your shirt (or you) puffs out over your waistband; the kind of chairs you sit in or the shape of the seats in your car; the amount of tension on the safety plunger and how positively it engages the safety... There are a host of factors that could be at work here.

I carried 1911s exclusively every day, from sunup to sundown, most always with ambi safeties, in an IWB at 4:00-4:30 for well nigh on ten years and I can count the number of times I found the safety off on one hand, even if I were to lose two fingers in a horrible lawn-mowing accident this afternoon, so it's not a given that the safety's just going to come off in the holster sometimes.

I can say that if I found the safety wiped off as often as you report, I would be looking at changing my heater or the manner in which I carry it, but I'm just risk-averse that way.

DocGKR
05-28-2012, 01:48 PM
"I also strongly believe in the weapon retention advantage given by an on-safe handgun."

This! I personally have twice witnessed officers' lives potentially saved when another person gained control of an officer's pistol, but the engaged manual safety prevented the weapon from firing--I don't like to think about the outcome if the pistols involved had been a Glock, Sig, XD, revolver, etc...

CK1
05-28-2012, 03:29 PM
First off: Thanks for starting this discussion, it has to be one of the best I've seen/read in a long time...

Personally, after having gone back to shooting/training with a Glock again for the last few months (coming from DA/SA CZ's), I think I'm starting to realize that I might just be one of those people whom DA/SA's offer advantages, and very much miss a lot of the ability or confidence to place shots as "surgically" as I used to with the sweet SA stroke.

In my experience, it seems to me that how your brain interprets the shooting process has got a lot to do with it; some guys might think mastering a single kind of pull is "the way", while it seems in my case that having the first DA pull be a very deliberate act, then followed by the far more forgiving crisp and light SA pulls may work better for me. I think I tend to look at it as: "after that first shot, we're on easy street"...

As an aside, I very much favor the traditional CZ non-decocker, safety-only DA/SA action... Guess my brain thinks being able to safety the gun in it's optimal "shooting-mode" makes the most sense, but at the same time, having to manually lower the hammer back in to DA-mode (and having little/no room for error) has programmed me to be very deliberate and safe when re-holstering a pistol, regardless of what type of action-type I'm shooting.

cclaxton
05-28-2012, 06:55 PM
This! I personally have twice witnessed officers' lives potentially saved when another person gained control of an officer's pistol, but the engaged manual safety prevented the weapon from firing--I don't like to think about the outcome if the pistols involved had been a Glock, Sig, XD, revolver, etc...

This is a really valuable piece of wisdom. I never did think about someone else grabbing my gun and then trying to shoot it at me....and if they are not used to a manual safety, that buys me valuable time to deal with the situation. On the other hand, they might be astute enough to switch it off, but every manual safety is a bit different, so I think the net benefit is still there.

Thanks for the valuable wisdom and saving those lives sounds like enough of a reason to use manual safeties if we are sufficiently trained to use them.

CC

Suvorov
05-29-2012, 11:48 AM
This! I personally have twice witnessed officers' lives potentially saved when another person gained control of an officer's pistol, but the engaged manual safety prevented the weapon from firing--I don't like to think about the outcome if the pistols involved had been a Glock, Sig, XD, revolver, etc...

Was this with Beretta and Smith 3rd Gen or with 1911 style pistols?

I know you are and advocate of the M&P with safety, is this the primary reason?

Todd - how much of this opposition to using the slide mounted safeties is due to "group think" and how much is due to issues some people have physically operating the controls?

ToddG
05-29-2012, 11:57 AM
Todd - how much of this opposition to using the slide mounted safeties is due to "group think" and how much is due to issues some people have physically operating the controls?

The complaints with slide mounted safeties are well founded and well documented. When I worked at Beretta, I always opted for 'G' (decocker only, no manual safety) variants to avoid the problem. I gave up the benefit of a manually safety, but I was unlikely to carry the guns on-safe anyway because of the fumble factor when disengaging especially for someone with short thumbs like mine. Carrying concealed, the manual safety is less of a must-have for me at least in terms of weapons retention.

NickA
06-04-2012, 09:50 AM
Thinking about this thread, I took my 3913 out to the range yesterday. I was sort of informally working on longer range shooting, 20-25 yards, just trying to keep everything on a paper plate. With my Glock, if I concentrate enough I'll keep most of them in, but tend to pull left alot (goes without saying that my long range shooting needs LOTS of work).
On a whim I load 5 in the 3913. The DA shot was off a few inches right, but the 4 SA shots were in about a 1-1/2" group. This with a gun that I gave maybe 200 rounds through and haven't shot in months. On a paper plate with no real aiming point. That SA pull is like cheating.
A few follow up mags fired at 3x5's using DA/SA yielded 3-4" groups but off the cards.
Now to listen to the voice in my head that says "that was slow fire, new trigger feel honeymoon, ignore it" and not the one that's saying "Dude, get that DA shot down and you've got it made!"

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

DocGKR
06-04-2012, 12:08 PM
Both were 3rd gen S&W's.

The manual safety on the M&P offers advantages in three areas:

1. Weapon retention for uniformed LE officers
2. AIWB carry
3. Transitioning from 1911

Wayne Dobbs
06-04-2012, 12:14 PM
Gary,

My bacon was dramatically saved many years ago by an on safe 1911.