Magnifiers for use with an RDS

[WobblyPossum]

With all the interesting discussions about PDWs recently, I got to wondering what the best magnifiers are to mount behind an RDS. I’d prefer something that can be removed completely without too much hassle and quickly mounted again without losing “zero” so my red dot appears in the same place in the magnifier window. Let’s say you have a rifle caliber PDW that you take with you on long trips that bring you far from home, like an AR pistol with a Law folder or something. The magnifier would be carried in the bag with the PDW, not necessarily mounted on it during transport. Then, should the coronapocalypse become the actual apocalypse while you’re far from home and only have your short barrel PDW instead of your preferred longer barrel LPVO setup, you at least have the magnifier if you want to PID at longer ranges.

I know that years ago there were the Aimpoint 3x magnifiers and the Eotech G33 3x. Now I’m seeing Aimpoint has a 6x that weighs only a small amount more than the 3x, Eotech seems to have 3x, 4x, and 5x magnifiers, Vortex has two 3x magnifiers, and ADM has their FLIK line of magnifiers as well. The RDS this magnifier would be paired with for this hypothetical scenario is an Aimpoint T2 on an absolute cowitness Scalarworks mount. The gun is not equipped with an IR laser because I don’t own NODs.

[TCB]

I keep a Aimpoint 3x on a LaRue mount in my tricky bag at work and regularly mount it when I’m out on foot. Good glass, good FoV, easy on / off, no zero change, quick to move in / out of line with my issued H-1 and actually cleans up the otherwise starburst 4 MOA dot. I’ve heard the Eoturd 3x has a bit better glass but haven’t ever used one. The Aimpoint 6x supposedly has a pretty narrow FoV but again haven’t spent any time behind one. I’m very satisfied with the Aimpoint 3x and it’s held up great for going on 7-8 years, excellent tool for PID with a dot. 52947

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I keep a Aimpoint 3x on a LaRue mount in my tricky bag at work and regularly mount it when I’m out on foot. Good glass, good FoV, easy on / off, no zero change, quick to move in / out of line with my issued H-1 and actually cleans up the otherwise starburst 4 MOA dot. I’ve heard the Eoturd 3x has a bit better glass but haven’t ever used one. The Aimpoint 6x supposedly has a pretty narrow FoV but again haven’t spent any time behind one. I’m very satisfied with the Aimpoint 3x and it’s held up great for going on 7-8 years, excellent tool for PID with a dot.

Thanks for the great info. I'm in the process of finding one myself for my rifle. Question for you, is you 3X Aimpoint the older model or did you get one of the newer ones?

I see that there is a "hobbyist" one for about $250 and then a more rugged duty grade one for $600+

[PD Sgt.]

I use a G33 3x magnifier across a couple different carbines. I like that it gives me pretty close to the flexibility of a LPVO across most of my RDS equipped guns.

One thing I have noticed is that there can be a bit of zero shift when using the magnifier behind the RDS. Not much, relative to say, a torso, maybe a few inches at 100, but enough to notice. For that reason I no longer zero my RDS with the magnifier. I think Kyle Defoor posted something on this a while back, maybe on IG.

[dontshakepandas]

Thanks for the great info. I'm in the process of finding one myself for my rifle. Question for you, is you 3X Aimpoint the older model or did you get one of the newer ones?

I see that there is a "hobbyist" one for about $250 and then a more rugged duty grade one for $600+

I’ve recently tried the 3X-C (commercial) and the 3Xmag-1 which is the newer duty grade model. I kept the duty grade model, but think most people would be just as happy with the commercial one if budget is a factor at all.

The glass in both are very good, but the eye relief is longer on the duty grade model which is very helpful if you are running a back up iron sight and need to mount the magnifier a little more forward. There isn’t a huge difference, but I’m fairly tall and like to keep my stock extended so every little bit helps.

The duty grade model is also flat on the bottom which allows me to use my back up sight built into my Unity Tactical FAST mount without removing the magnifier. The commercial model blocks the sight picture so must be removed.

If neither of those matter to you and you don’t plan on going scuba diving with it, you’ll likely be very happy with the commercial model. Scalarworks actually told me they don’t do a combo deal with the duty grade model because they flat out don’t think it’s worth the extra money over the commercial.


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[Casual Friday]

I purchased this Primary Arms gen IV 3X magnifier during their Black Friday sale. I bought it as a proof of concept so to speak to see if I liked the red dot/magnifier combo before shelling out EoTech or Aimpoint money. I paired it with an American Defense swing away mount. I have no doubt that the EoTech and Aimpoint magnifiers are better, so I won't try to tell you it's just as good for less money. What I found was that it was perfectly capable for it's intended use for me so I've decided to keep it rather than sell it and buy the EoTech or Aimpoint. It's more of toss in my backpack and forget about it until I need it kind of thing.

I've used it behind an Aimpoint Pro, CompM2, a Holosun ACSS, and a Primary Arms advanced micro. The dot remained crystal clear when using it with the Pro, and the Holosun ACSS reticle was crisp and smooth. The CompM2 was a little bloomy but not to the point of being distracting, but the Primary Arms 2 MOA dot looked like 4th of July fireworks. It comes with turrets so you can perfectly align the dot inside the magnifier, and it returns to zero for lack of a better term after removing and remounting it.

As noted by PD Sgt. you will experience some zero shift so keep that in mind.
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[WobblyPossum]

TCB mentioned the magnifier cleaning up his dot which is a starburst without the magnifier. This is interesting to me because my eyes are so screwed up that even my T2 can’t show me a dot that’s an actual circle. It’s even worse with cheaper RDS examples like the Primary Arms Micros. Are there any other people with astigmatisms/screwed up eyes who can chime in about the magnifiers?

[Clusterfrack]

I have an EOTech 3x magnifier, and it's about as good as these things get. It has solid and easy to use vertical and horizontal adjustments for centering the dot, and importantly, a focus adjuster. With some experimentation, you can use the focus adjustment to change how the dot appears. I haven't found a RDS that has a perfectly round dot under magnification, except for an EOTech, which is unique in retaining the same dot size when magnified.

All that said, I rarely use the magnifier. But I can't bring myself to get rid of it. It's nice to have in a pack just in case.

[TCB]

WB, mine is an older model (I bought it used 7 or so years ago). No idea on its actual date of manufacture. The only issue I’ve had it the rubber ring that goes over the metal ledge where you look through cane off (it may originally been press fit with some adhesive?) but a little shoe goo and it’s been good for years. I know there can be some PoI shift with magnifiers but if you properly center the dot in the magnifier you can minimize this (it hasn’t been an issue for me).

[TGS]

Are there any other people with astigmatisms/screwed up eyes who can chime in about the magnifiers?

My 3x Vortex magnifier turns the dot into a perfectly crisp dot like in a first-person shooter video game.

Magnified optics in general act as a corrective lens, IME.

The problem with the Vortex being what we had talked about in PMs, that it doesn't maintain the dot center when detached and reattached (for anyone who is wondering about this otherwise attractive offering).

[TCB]

I haven’t had that problem with the original model Aimpoint 3x / LaRue combo...I see that combo occasionally in the $450 range on the secondary market.

[msstate56]

I had an old Aimpoint 3x, and got rid of it due to the aforementioned zero shift. I got a consistent 1”-2” shift at 50 yards. Enough that I wasn’t willing to risk it on a duty weapon. A few months ago I decided to revisit the magnifier concept. I got a new Aimpoint commercial 3x and a Scalarworks mount. Scalarworks mount was great, the 3x was worthless. I run a BUIS folder rear, and I shoot with an extended stock (usually “5” on a 7 position A5 RE). The eye relief is so short I couldn’t use it. If I removed the rear sight, put the 3x in the rearmost slot, and craned my neck forward- I could almost see through it. Think TA31 ACOG eye relief. Plus I’m at the point where I’d like a little more than 3x mag. I’d try the 6x if it didn’t cost more than a dang T1.

[Caballoflaco]

My 3x Vortex magnifier turns the dot into a perfectly crisp dot like in a first-person shooter video game.

Magnified optics in general act as a corrective lens, IME.

The problem with the Vortex being what we had talked about in PMs, that it doesn't maintain the dot center when detached and reattached (for anyone who is wondering about this otherwise attractive offering).

Is that the older model vortex or the newer vortex micro?

[TGS]

Is that the older model vortex or the newer vortex micro?

Newer. This one: https://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/electronic-sights/magnifiers/micro-3x-magnifier-prod130560.aspx

[CoGT3]

I’ve recently tried the 3X-C (commercial) and the 3Xmag-1 which is the newer duty grade model. I kept the duty grade model, but think most people would be just as happy with the commercial one if budget is a factor at all.

The glass in both are very good, but the eye relief is longer on the duty grade model which is very helpful if you are running a back up iron sight and need to mount the magnifier a little more forward. There isn’t a huge difference, but I’m fairly tall and like to keep my stock extended so every little bit helps.

The duty grade model is also flat on the bottom which allows me to use my back up sight built into my Unity Tactical FAST mount without removing the magnifier. The commercial model blocks the sight picture so must be removed.

If neither of those matter to you and you don’t plan on going scuba diving with it, you’ll likely be very happy with the commercial model. Scalarworks actually told me they don’t do a combo deal with the duty grade model because they flat out don’t think it’s worth the extra money over the commercial.


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Did not know that was an issue. So with the Unity FAST mounts for the 3X-C you can not see the integrated rear peep sight in the FAST mount? But you can with the 3Xmag-1? If so, that needs to be wider spread information. I have 2 FAST mounts for RDS and love that I can add a fixed front and use the rear peep of the FAST. Have been going through weather to give the 3x magnifier a try but that becomes a more expensive option is you need the 3Xmag-1. Street price for T2/3Xmag-1 with both Unity mounts is in the range of a Kahles K16i plus Badger mount with only a 3.5oz weight penalty.

[dontshakepandas]

Did not know that was an issue. So with the Unity FAST mounts for the 3X-C you can not see the integrated rear peep sight in the FAST mount? But you can with the 3Xmag-1? If so, that needs to be wider spread information. I have 2 FAST mounts for RDS and love that I can add a fixed front and use the rear peep of the FAST. Have been going through weather to give the 3x magnifier a try but that becomes a more expensive option is you need the 3Xmag-1. Street price for T2/3Xmag-1 with both Unity mounts is in the range of a Kahles K16i plus Badger mount with only a 3.5oz weight penalty.

The magnifier mount is QD so you can pull it off to use the rear sight. I wouldn’t recommend paying the difference between the 3X-C and 3Xmag-1 just for that.

With the FAST mount I think the commercial magnifier is the way to go. I bought the 3Xmag-1 to use with a traditional mount and rear sight and then switched to the FAST mount, but would have gone with the 3X-C if I knew what I know now.


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[Default.mp3]

I've used the EOTech G33 with T-2s/CompM5s on GDI lower 1/3rd mount on my SBRs (10.75" and 11.5"), ended up switching away to go to taller Aimpoint mounts, plus the dot being off-centered in the magnifier messed with my OCD (you could move the sight picture around to try and center it, but then the sight picture gets wonky due to the edges of the RDS sight picture being cut off, so now the sight picture in the magnifier is an oblong oval). Did not notice any shift in zero from magnifier to non-magnified, but I never shot groups without the magnifier, and was able to get first round hits on reduced-size IPSC steels at 100 yards unmagnified with M193 clones, so it wasn't a huge shift if it did exist.

Swapped over the using Scalarworks 1.93" mounts for both the CompM5 and the 3XMag-1, like it better than the G33, if only because it is perfectly centered. The eye relief matters to me, since I run my stock all the way out, and having to crane my face forward to get proper eye relief is annoying; still have to do it with this, but not as bad as it would be with the 3X-C. I strongly considered the 6XMag-1, as the additional length would totally negate the eye relief issue, but was kinda leery of the the idea of having 6× without any other reference points on the reticle (easier to persuade me with something like an EOTech with multiple dots); after playing a bit with one (albeit just in the hand, not mounted to anything), I decided that the excessively narrow FOV made it not worthwhile, especially since these were going on short guns that weren't focused on accuracy.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Regarding the zero shift, can't recall when I heard about it but within a day of each other both a cop in Hawaii and a mil guy at Bragg brought it in discussions. And they were encountering it with EOTechs and their proprietary magnifiers. Not sure if I was still with Aimpoint then or not but I was using a T1 & the 3x both in LaRue mounts. I stayed with it on my work rifle until I retired because the T1/3x combination fit in the rack fine while a LVPO would not.

The recommended method for those who used them was zero the optic & confirm with the magnifier in place. Then shoot it without the magnifier and see what you get, note it, work with it.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Thanks for the great info. I'm in the process of finding one myself for my rifle. Question for you, is you 3X Aimpoint the older model or did you get one of the newer ones?

I see that there is a "hobbyist" one for about $250 and then a more rugged duty grade one for $600+

Ummm, that 3X-C is a nice optic, fully armored housing and very nice glass for a smoking deal. Eye relief may be a bit short for some tastes, but I've been tearing ass with mine behind an H-2 on Texas whitetails. I would recommend you give one a shot.

[msstate56]

What is the eye relief difference between the 3xc and the 3xmag-1? I know the 3xmag-1 is supposed to be a little better, but how much? An inch?, half inch? Does it have more forgiveness to eye position than the 3x-C?. Also any noticeable difference in glass quality between the two? As I mentioned earlier, the 3xC just didn’t work for me because the eye relief was so short. I’ve got a Unity Fast micro and 3x mag mount on the way, so I’m continuing to re-explore this concept. I just hate the 3xmag-1 is over $400 more. With the fast mount, I can eliminate the flip up rear and mount the mag all the way to the rear. (I have to maintain iron sights because of my dept rifle qual).

[javemtr]

What is the eye relief difference between the 3xc and the 3xmag-1? I know the 3xmag-1 is supposed to be a little better, but how much? An inch?, half inch? Does it have more forgiveness to eye position than the 3x-C?. Also any noticeable difference in glass quality between the two? As I mentioned earlier, the 3xC just didn’t work for me because the eye relief was so short. I’ve got a Unity Fast micro and 3x mag mount on the way, so I’m continuing to re-explore this concept. I just hate the 3xmag-1 is over $400 more. With the fast mount, I can eliminate the flip up rear and mount the mag all the way to the rear. (I have to maintain iron sights because of my dept rifle qual).
According to Aimpoint's website:
3X-C: Eye relief: 56 mm (2.2 in)
3XMag-1: Eye relief: 70 mm (2.8 in)

[dontshakepandas]

According to Aimpoint's website:
3X-C: Eye relief: 56 mm (2.2 in)
3XMag-1: Eye relief: 70 mm (2.8 in)

The 3XMag-1 is also physically .6 inches longer which can make a difference if you are trying to clear a traditional rear sight.

[jlw]

I have Aimpoint PROs on several rifles, and I have an Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a LaRue throw lever flip out mount. I just move it to whichever rifle I am using.

The hogs don't seem to appreciate it one bit; however, I am moving to a 1-8 on two rifles as I am wanting to push the range out more.

[msstate56]

The 3XMag-1 is also physically .6 inches longer which can make a difference if you are trying to clear a traditional rear sight.

Ok that makes more sense. With the extra eye relief plus longer body, it’s more like 1.2” of additional eye relief. Thanks.

[dontshakepandas]

I have Aimpoint PROs on several rifles, and I have an Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a LaRue throw lever flip out mount. I just move it to whichever rifle I am using.

The hogs don't seem to appreciate it one bit; however, I am moving to a 1-8 on two rifles as I am wanting to push the range out more.

This is a great point and something to consider if you are comparing the price to the Kahles that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

The Kahles is great, and is actually what I had on my SBR before moving to the FAST Aimpoint + Mag combo. I have 2 rifles with Aimpoint in FAST mounts, so I can move the magnifier between them without having to re-zero anything.

The Kahles setup also doesn't weigh a lot more than the combo, but with the Aimpoint + Mag you can always remove the magnifier to save weight.

For my needs, I really prefer the Aimpoint + Magnifier combo on these particular rifles. I have another rifle with a Razor Gen 2 E 1-6 (which I actually prefer over the Kahles if you can stand the extra few ounces) and the Razor Gen 3 on order for another rifle.

I don't think you can really say one is better than the other universally, but they both have advantages and disadvantages so you just need to match it up with your needs.

[mrozowjj]

About a month ago someone on reddit made a very nice chart comparing the eye relief, FOV, length, weight, etc other stats of the more common magnifiers out there:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/comments/fh0vfn/i_want_a_red_dot_magnifier_and_im_a_nerd_here_is/


Unsurprisingly the magnifiers with the best FOV have the worst eye relief and the ones with the best eye relief have the worst FOV. Apparently even with tons of money you still can't defy the laws of physics.

[UNK]

Has anybody tried the new Trijicon HD MRO with magnifier HD magnifier?

https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/mro-c-2200057

[WobblyPossum]

Here you go rob_s. I know Eotech has released a 4x and 5x magnifier that don’t look very large at all. Anyone have experience with them?

[Wake27]

Here you go rob_s. I know Eotech has released a 4x and 5x magnifier that don’t look very large at all. Anyone have experience with them?

EOTech has 3x and 5x magnifiers. I don’t have experience with their newer stuff but I’ve been pleasantly surprised by my Vortex micro 3x.


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[HeavyDuty]

Here you go rob_s. I know Eotech has released a 4x and 5x magnifier that don’t look very large at all. Anyone have experience with them?

Thanks for bumping this up - I’m looking at a 3x magnifier as an alternative to a LPVO on a 9” 300 BO, this is very useful.

I’ve become a bit of a SIG Electro-Optics slut due to features, exposure to them at the mothership and their warranty. I’ve been having very good luck with a pile of Romeo4Ts and I’d like to see if I can be happy with a magnifier on one. I’m looking at a SIG Juliet3 right now (not the Micro,) which I believe is in their professional quality series same as the 4T.

[rob_s]

About a month ago someone on reddit made a very nice chart comparing the eye relief, FOV, length, weight, etc other stats of the more common magnifiers out there:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/comments/fh0vfn/i_want_a_red_dot_magnifier_and_im_a_nerd_here_is/


Unsurprisingly the magnifiers with the best FOV have the worst eye relief and the ones with the best eye relief have the worst FOV. Apparently even with tons of money you still can't defy the laws of physics.

it's a shame they seem to consider that "adult content". I don't have, and don't want, a reddit account. for those that can see the content, is there any chance they shared it as a google sheet or something we can see outside of Reddit?

[HeavyDuty]

it's a shame they seem to consider that "adult content". I don't have, and don't want, a reddit account. for those that can see the content, is there any chance they shared it as a google sheet or something we can see outside of Reddit?

91479

[rob_s]

91479

thanks!

Of course, I couldn't wait either...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OGI8csTX1QOIewUHLgmHyKw5FDO1Edj1hBVzNIJeDLE/edit?usp=sharing

[DMCutter]

Juliet 3 and 4 both have qd mounts and flip without any kind of button setup. I'll drag them out later this afternoon and get a side by side comparo pic with the 3 micro.

[DMCutter]

91487
Juliet 3 micro at right, Juliet 4 w/Romeo 4t on 516, Juliet 3 w/Romeo 4t on 9" MCX. Micro is 2-7/8", J4 is 4-1/8", J3 is 4-3/16". The perspective makes the J3 look fatter but it isn't really.

[Up1911Fan]

Aimpoint Micro and Vortex Micro 3X.
91521

[davisj]

Anyone have experience with a PA Microprism and 3x magnifier?

I recently picked up a SOLGW 9” 300BO and put a Microprism on it. Able to easily hit a 12”x18” plate at 250 yards shooting supers but beyond that I struggled. Thinking a magnifier might be useful when paired with a microprism on a 5.56 gun.

I’ve never used a magnifier with a micro as I e always used a dot or LPVO. Thinking of trying it but curious what others have experienced specifically with the PA microprism. Thanks!

[trajiiic]

Anyone have experience with a PA Microprism and 3x magnifier?

I recently picked up a SOLGW 9” 300BO and put a Microprism on it. Able to easily hit a 12”x18” plate at 250 yards shooting supers but beyond that I struggled. Thinking a magnifier might be useful when paired with a microprism on a 5.56 gun.

I’ve never used a magnifier with a micro as I e always used a dot or LPVO. Thinking of trying it but curious what others have experienced specifically with the PA microprism. Thanks!

Not exactly. Using a Romeo 5 with the new 3x magnifier w/ ranging reticle. I don't have any complaints about it. Eye relief is a bit short, but I don't have any other magnifier experience to compare it to. It's nose to charging handle for me with the red dot & mag combo.

I was able to dial out my astigmatism with the PA 3x. With no magnification it looks mostly like a dot to me, but under magnification it was a long diagonal smear. With the adjustment dial at the back adjusted to my eye it's mostly a dot again.

[DpdG]

Anyone have experience with a PA Microprism and 3x magnifier?

I recently picked up a SOLGW 9” 300BO and put a Microprism on it. Able to easily hit a 12”x18” plate at 250 yards shooting supers but beyond that I struggled. Thinking a magnifier might be useful when paired with a microprism on a 5.56 gun.

I’ve never used a magnifier with a micro as I e always used a dot or LPVO. Thinking of trying it but curious what others have experienced specifically with the PA microprism. Thanks!

I’m using a 1X micro prism (the new one) with a Vortex micro 3X. It took some work adjusting the diopters on both the prism and the micro to get everything working correctly, but it was definitely worth it for my astigmatism. I was able to get to a point that the reticle was crystal clear under magnification and very good bare. I would definitely recommend it for those whose eyes do not cooperate with regular dots.

Picture for….reasons:91554

[Default.mp3]

Thanks for bumping this up - I’m looking at a 3x magnifier as an alternative to a LPVO on a 9” 300 BO, this is very useful.Obligatory repost:


LPVOs and RDS/HWS with magnifier are distinctly separate roles. While there is substantial overlap, they have very different strengths.

The LPVO will never be able to compete with an RDS/HWS when it comes to unmagnified use; you can pretty easily get just as fast when doing flat range stuff when using a quality LPVO, but factor in unorthodox shooting positions, i.e., barricade use, and it's unrealistic to expect anyone to practice enough to be just as fast with an LPVO. The LPVO also cannot be used for passive aiming under NODs.

On the flip side, LPVOs can provide much better reticles for use, and will also provide much better light transmission. This makes LPVOs much more versatile when used at range, and are also much more effective in low-light situations when not using NODs. Using my ATACR 1-8x, I was able to push my SR-25 all the way out to >1100 yards.

I would strongly argue that magnification and a useful reticle much extends the utility of an AR-15. These rifles are generally capable of <2 MOA accuracy when paired with appropriate ammo, why wouldn't we want to take advantage of that? Beyond that, as Chuck Pressburg has noted, the goal of having magnification on an AR isn't to try and take a headshot at 400 yards, it's to be able to hit that 2" of the target that's exposed while the rest is behind cover at 50 yards. I have both magnifiers and LPVOs on my rifles, and I see them as being used for very different roles. As the old saying goes, mission drives the gear train.

[rob_s]

I don’t know why it’s “obligatory” or even merits a repost. “Alternative” doesn’t necessarily mean “facsimile”.

al·ter·na·tive
/ôlˈtərnədiv/
adjective
(of one or more things) available as another possibility.

fac·sim·i·le
/fakˈsiməlē/
noun
an exact copy, especially of written or printed material.


From what I can tell, nobody is trying to replicate a LPVO. At least in this and other discussions. What, instead, I see is people that have evaluated the LPVO options (either through trial or via reading online, or both) and determined that it’s not for them. Possibly even not for them on a particular rifle while still owning others that may, in fact, have an LPVO on them.

[WobblyPossum]

EOTech has 3x and 5x magnifiers. I don’t have experience with their newer stuff but I’ve been pleasantly surprised by my Vortex micro 3x.


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My mistake. You are correct. I had thought the G43 was a 4x magnifier but it seems to be a 3x like the G33, just more modernized.

ETA: Kyle Defoor seems to have good things to say about the Vortex magnifiers he’s been running.

[Default.mp3]

I don’t know why it’s “obligatory” or even merits a repost. “Alternative” doesn’t necessarily mean “facsimile”.

al·ter·na·tive
/ôlˈtərnədiv/
adjective
(of one or more things) available as another possibility.

fac·sim·i·le
/fakˈsiməlē/
noun
an exact copy, especially of written or printed material.


From what I can tell, nobody is trying to replicate a LPVO. At least in this and other discussions. What, instead, I see is people that have evaluated the LPVO options (either through trial or via reading online, or both) and determined that it’s not for them. Possibly even not for them on a particular rifle while still owning others that may, in fact, have an LPVO on them.I was trying to communicate that I did not see the RDS/HWS/whatever 1x optic paired with a magnifier as being an alternative to the LPVOs, because they cover what I think are fairly different use cases. I generally don't believe it makes much sense to weigh both options on the same gun if you have a well-defined role for your gun.

[23JAZ]

First magnifier for me. So far I really like the weight savings over the Vortex 1-6 I had.
Holosun 515GM & 3X mag. I see some guys have a good amount of space between the magnifier and the RD. I was always told you want them as close as possible. Is there a reason in support of the larger gap?
91737

[Chuck Whitlock]

Obligatory repost:

How does the 3x-4x fixed magnified optic compare and/or contrast to the LPVO and the RDS+magnifier? Particularly if one can use the Bindon Aiming Concept?

This is typified by the ACOG, which is pricey. Seems that the biggest downfall of the RDS+magnifier is zero shift.

[Default.mp3]

How does the 3x-4x fixed magnified optic compare and/or contrast to the LPVO and the RDS+magnifier? Particularly if one can use the Bindon Aiming Concept?

This is typified by the ACOG, which is pricey. Seems that the biggest downfall of the RDS+magnifier is zero shift.I personally have not any meaningful zero shift when it came to magnifiers. I do believe it exists, just given the basic physics of it all, but most folks seem to agree with me that with a quality optic and magnifier, it is not a meaningful shift for the most part. I think an argument can be made that as long as you zero with the magnifier, you should be fine typically, as if the level of precision is needed where that zero shift would make a difference, you almost certainly have the time to flip up the magnifier. For me, the magnifier arguably makes me have to be much more consistent in my head positioning, thus minimizing any issues with parallax that might occur with a non-magnified optic (claims of being parallax-free always have an asterisk with them).

In terms of the fixed magnified optic, I will have to bow out on that discussion for the most part, due to the fact that I simply have no practical experience with them. I will argue that BAC is likely to be a crutch, though, as you still have the issues of eyebox and eye relief, along with deeply personal issue of phoria; I am reminded of the post @Molon (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=8228) made about his experiences with using his ACOG as an OEG:

The Effects of Phoria When Using the ACOG as an Occluded-Eye Gunsight


Phoria: the visual effect that occurs when one eye is blocked from seeing the same view of a target as the other eye; the blocked eye does not get the same sensory input as the other eye and can begin to wonder off, usually to one side or the other.

In an attempt to make my Trijicon TA-11 ACOG more versatile at engaging close range targets, I installed a Progressive Machine and Tool flip-down front lens cover. With the lens cover in the up position (blocking the view through the scope) the ACOG can function as a nonmagnified occluded-eye gunsight. When the ACOG is functioning as an occluded-eye gunsight, the view of the target for the eye looking into the scope is blocked and the effect of phoria comes into play.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/l4r8gj7j1q.jpg



http://www.box.net/shared/static/vrsnd0hkns.jpg



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In order to determine just what the effects of phoria would be when using the ACOG TA-11 as an occluded-eye gunsight, I conducted a test comparing the accuracy and points of impact when shooting with the lens cover down (normal sighting) and the lens cover up (occluded-eye sighting.) Testing was conducted at a distance of 25 yards, the farthest distance that I would anticipate using the occluded eye-method of sighting.

Shooting off a sand bag, I zeroed the TA-11 for point of aim equals point of impact at 25 yards using the normal sighting method. I then fired a quick 10-shot group with the normal sighting method that formed a tidy group with an extreme spread of 0.56”.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/r0fbs1x6n5.jpg


Next, I placed the lens cover in the up position, transforming the ACOG into an occluded-eye gunsight. The left eye views the target, while the right eye views the reticle in the scope. The right eye is blocked (occluded) from seeing the target due to the lens cover. The impact of the initial shots using this method had such a large horizontal deviation to the left that they were off the targets that I originally was using. I had to change to a 24” wide target and aim at the far right side of the target to capture the impact of the rounds. The aiming point for this portion of the test was the numeral “7” on the target.

Using the occluded-eye method of sighting, I fired a 10-shot group. This group had an extreme spread of over 7” and the center of the group was 14” to the left of the aiming point!

http://www.box.net/shared/static/pin3zb13ha.jpg
Source: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?34549-The-Effects-of-Phoria-When-Using-the-ACOG-as-an-Occluded-Eye-Gunsight

Sadly, the pictures are gone, but there was a huge difference in the group sizes. That being said, BAC might work better with phoria than an OEG, due to the fact that BAC still allows you to utilize information downrange in the eye you've got the reticle in, but I'm leery of just how much one's brain would be able to merge the magnified image with the non-magnified image to minimize the effects of phoria. I would cautiously put the fixed magnified optics to be an inferior alternative to LPVOs, at least from a pure performance POV (they can advantages over LPVOs in other fields, such as size, weight, durability, etc.).

[HeavyDuty]

I decided to try a magnifier with RDS instead of a LPVO on my 9” .300, and a Juliet3 just arrived. I started setting it up with a Romeo4T (1 MOA plex version) and so far I’m impressed.