PDW forum?

[LittleLebowski]

See poll. Multiple choices allowed.

[MD7305]

That "no" was supposed to be a "yes" only to be sabotaged by my fat thumbing tendencies. Sorry.

Sincerely,
The internet polls failure.

[Grey]

#ModsHereAreShit (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=ModsHereAreShit) is always the right choice...

[TheRoland]

PDWs are rifles, imho, and the rifle sub-forum is not overwhelmed by their current popularity.

[ssb]

I think "PDW" fits nicely in the rifles category, personally. The current rash of threads is really no different than what happens when Dagga Boy starts talking about AUGs or Langdon drops a new M9 variant, and I say that as somebody who is severely tempted by the whole thing.

[BWT]

Maybe a PDW/PCC forum?

[LittleLebowski]

Maybe a PDW/PCC forum?

Interdasting.

[TGS]

PCC implies a legacy pistol cartridge (9mm, 40, 45, etc).

PDWs can be either pistol, SCHV, or rifle cartridge chamberings.

Creating a PDW/PCC forum separate from the rifle forum would make things nebulous. People already have a hard enough time putting things in the correct subforums and threads.

[GJM]

Regardless of whether you want a separate sub forum or not, the PDW thread has gone from start to 130 pages, and spawned a number of related threads, all in less than one month. The only thread in this sub forum that is remotely close is the AK thread, and that is about 50 pages in 5 years.

So why is the PDW thread so popular — probably a number of reasons. Let’s face it, shotguns are the bread and butter of long gun use for civilians, but absent special use like for bears in Alaska, or for training, they hardly get out of the gun safe or bedroom closet to see sunlight. Outside of mil/LE, hunting, competition and training, it is pretty unusual have a long gun out in general use. So we have all these shotguns and rifles, that unlike our handguns that are carried daily, hardly get out. Here is where the PDW comes in — something rifle or pistol caliber that will fit into an EDC pack, and provide either better terminal ballistics, better technical shooting capability, or both, than your handgun. As someone goes about life, they have the capability to bring more than a handgun without dragging around a case long enough to carry a shotgun or rifle.

[Nephrology]

Regardless of whether you want a separate sub forum or not, the PDW thread has gone from start to 130 pages, and spawned a number of related threads, all in less than one month. The only thread in this sub forum that is remotely close is the AK thread, and that is about 50 pages in 5 years.

So why is the PDW thread so popular — probably a number of reasons. Let’s face it, shotguns are the bread and butter of long gun use for civilians, but absent special use like for bears in Alaska, or for training, they hardly get out of the gun safe or bedroom closet to see sunlight. Outside of mil/LE, hunting, competition and training, it is pretty unusual have a long gun out in general use. So we have all these shotguns and rifles, that unlike our handguns that are carried daily, hardly get out. Here is where the PDW comes in — something rifle or pistol caliber that will fit into an EDC pack, and provide either better terminal ballistics, better technical shooting capability, or both, than your handgun. As someone goes about life, they have the capability to bring more than a handgun without dragging around a case long enough to carry a shotgun or rifle.

I voted "No" but I admit this is a persuasive argument.

[GJM]

I voted "No" but I admit this is a persuasive argument.

My argument is that the PDW topic has legs, but I am not strong either way on whether it should be its own sub forum. The interest is not just discussing a PDW, almost everyone from PF I am in close contact with, has a PDW, is buying a PDW or considering a PDW. Interestingly, my wife ditched the shotgun for a .300 BLK pistol with 110 Barnes in AK, probably four years ago.

[HeavyDuty]

Practically speaking, a PDW can be either a SBR or a braced pistol. That’s why I think a separate forum would be useful.

[BWT]

If we did not have pistol braces - this would all be under the NFA forum.

I’m not advocating for that, but that’s why this has become multiple forums. I think a PCC forum could be merited and the PDW thread could go into that, long gun, or NFA if merited.

I think the PDW concept is interesting and have read that entire thread (now 140+ pages). But I think it could be contained there as well. I would say PCC probably has more staying power as some PDW’s are PCC’s but not all PDW’s are PCC. Heck it’s debated at length what the definition of a PDW is in that thread for several pages in and of itself...

Interesting stuff. PCC is also rapidly growing I think merging them may ease threads, but whatever it’s interesting non the less.

[HCM]

My argument is that the PDW topic has legs, but I am not strong either way on whether it should be its own sub forum. The interest is not just discussing a PDW, almost everyone from PF I am in close contact with, has a PDW, is buying a PDW or considering a PDW. Interestingly, my wife ditched the shotgun for a .300 BLK pistol with 110 Barnes in AK, probably four years ago.

Regardless of whether it’s in a real rifle caliber or a pistol caliber PDWCR and basically serve as mini rifles.

Mini rifle in a bag is kind of a one trick pony, I don’t really see it justifying a sub forum. Not to mention peoples varying descriptions and conceptions of what constitutes a PW and crossover with PCC which also falls under rifles.

[Grey]

Regardless of whether it’s in a real rifle caliber or a pistol caliber PDWCR and basically serve as mini rifles.

Mini rifle in a bag is kind of a one trick pony, I don’t really see it justifying a sub forum. Not to mention peoples varying descriptions and conceptions of what constitutes a PW and crossover with PCC which also falls under rifles.

I tend to agree with this line of thinking, honestly I think we would end up with a few threads in a sub forum and it would be mostly dead other than those few topics. Honestly we have a ton of information in the PDW thread already and a couple offshoot threads. If we were seeing a massive increase in the number of threads related to PDWs then I could see a need for a sub forum but as it stands the rifle section is pretty slow already, why subdivide it further?

[OlongJohnson]

Agreed with the last two posts.

I think it's likely that the one thread exploded because it's a new topic that hasn't been hashed to death and covered in eloquence five years ago or more by Dagga Boy and DocGKR, and many of us are sitting around the house more than normal.

I do kinda like the limited number of sub-forums here.

If there was a PDW/PCC forum, is LL going to go and move all the revolver-cartridge lever gun threads over there? I doubt it. Might as well let it live forever like the 1301 thread that brought me here in the first place.

[Caballoflaco]

I vote no, unless you want monthly or more new posts about how awesome 5.7mm pistols and rifles are. While I’ll admit those can be useful in certain well thouht out contexts, the fandboys of that cartridge I’ve run into online are like cancer. I think we should keep PDW’s and PCC’s hidden away safely in the rifle forum.

[Bigghoss]

Mods here are shit.

I don't see a need for it but I'm not opposed to it either. I have a 9mm carbine and will probably get others. I have a couple of braced pistols and will get some more. I don't see myself EDCing one in a bag but for those rare occasions when I stay in a hotel it would be nice to have a PDWish thing in a normal sized bag that wouldn't draw attention.

[Casual Friday]

Voted yes but I think we would need to define what a PDW is. I consider my 11.5" 5.56 AR with LAW folder to be a PDW but some may disagree.

A concealable pistol/SBR that can be carried in a reasonably sized backpack or messenger style bag is how I define it.

Can't vote twice but #modsareshit (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=modsareshit)

[LittleLebowski]

I vote no, unless you want monthly or more new posts about how awesome 5.7mm pistols and rifles are. While I’ll admit those can be useful in certain well thouht out contexts, the fandboys of that cartridge I’ve run into online are like cancer. I think we should keep PDW’s and PCC’s hidden away safely in the rifle forum.

I don’t know, I’d like to own that sweet full auto PS-90 Hansohn Brothers has.

[Hansohn Brothers]

I don’t know, I’d like to own one of those sweet full auto PS-90s @Hansohn Brothers (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=12052) has.FIFY. :p

[Grey]

FIFY. :p

Oh snap...

So when is there going to be a PF Hansohn Brothers suppressor demo shoot? :D I'll chip in for ammo!

[Caballoflaco]

I don’t know, I’d like to own that sweet full auto PS-90 Hansohn Brothers has.


FIFY. :p

I don’t see why anybody needs a weapon of war that’s designed to shoot down spaceships on our streets.

At JodyH has made some strong arguments for its use in a niche roll, I was just being an Internet dick.

My main concern is that I’ve seen a couple of forums, but I’m thinking of one in particular where they start a new forum for whatever gun of the month is being sold and modified. Then when people get bored or stop buying those threads end up being moved somewhere else so they can have a dedicated subforum for the new hotness.

[Hansohn Brothers]

I don’t see why anybody needs a weapon of war that’s designed to shoot down spaceships on our streets.

When the Goa'uld show up, I'll be at least a little prepared. :D

[Hansohn Brothers]

Oh snap...

So when is there going to be a PF Hansohn Brothers suppressor demo shoot? :D I'll chip in for ammo!

I think we can work something out once we get back to something that resembles normal.

[Hansohn Brothers]

To bring this around, I'll vote No to a PDW forum. I view PDWs the same as I do SBR since they generally follow the same size and purpose. The Rifle and Carbines forum is a good place to discuss PDWs. I would go as far to recommend mission specific forums such as hunting, long range precision, mobile/MOUT, personal defense, etc in the Software section. From there, we can discuss the hardware needed for the specific mission. As Pat always said, let the mission drive the gear train.

[RevolverRob]

The sub-forum now is titled "Rifles and Carbines". A PDW is just an even shorter carbine. A "PCC" is a Pistol Caliber Carbine. So I vote no on a PDW forum.

I don't think it matters that much, but if we want to be semantic (and we all know how I am with semantics). The pistol-versions of ARs and other PDWs should just be in the semi-automatic pistol sub-forum. I'm paranoid, to a degree, but placing pistols in the pistol sub-forum, instead of in the Rifle and Carbines sub-forum seems like it might be a good idea from a potential legal justification stand point (i.e., it indicates you didn't intend to use your brace-equipped pistol as a rifle..or some such non-sense). Similarly, updating the Shotgun forum to recognize that we shouldn't call Tac14s/Shockwaves 'shotguns', because they are 'other' firearms...

Could just change the titles of the sub-forums

Maybe that's just a way or allowing us to acknowledge that these weapons are between classes, but fall more into one category than another.

___

Since you asked though -

I'd love to see some restructuring/reordering of the order of forums:

Software:

Mindset and Tactics
Marksmanship and Gunhandling
Competition Skills and Discussion
Drills, Tests, and Practice
Unarmed Combatives
Law Enforcement
__

Hardware:

Semi-Auto Pistols
Revolvers
Rifles, Carbines, Pistol Caliber Carbines, and Braced Pistols
Shotguns and 'Other' Firearms
NFA
Ammunition (with Reloading as a Sub-Forum under this Heading)
Holsters, Accessories, EDC, and Optics (with RDS as a sub-forum under this heading)
Edged Weapons
Ask The Armorer

___

General Discussions and Miscellaneous:

P-F Code of Conduct
P-F News, Info, and References
General Discussion
Gallery
__

And just because I'm a pedant - I'd LOVE for standardization on whether or not we're going to use the ampersand or the word and (e.g., General Discussions & Miscellaneous or General Discussions and Miscellaneous). I don't care which - just bugs me that we have a mix of them. Similarly - is the official abbreviation going to be PF or P-F - I don't care which - just pick one. This is my technical writing OCD coming out. I'm gonna guess I'm not the only pedant around here who has this mild irritation.

[MistWolf]

I voted YES because one thread was broken out into three and made it harder to follow them. There are also other PDW/Shorty threads. I think having them in one sub-forum would make it easier to find and share information. Make PDW/Shorty (or whatever you want to call it) a sub-forum of Rifles & Carbines

A quick look shows the following threads would be easier to find (and possibly reducing repeat threads) in their own sub-forum-
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41496-Let-s-talk-PDW-s
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42023-Carrying-and-caring-for-the-PDW
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42022-PDW-drills-and-shooting-reports
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41744-LAW-folder
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42065-300-AAC-Blackout-Enabling-Thread-(Mags-ammo-optics-barrels-etc-)
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42016-Feedback-on-5-56-AK-SBR
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41457-General-purpose-300-Blackout-barrel-length
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41345-Suppressed-9mm-Carbine-SBR-Pistol

[AKDoug]

The poll above is precisely how third parties fuck up an election :rolleyes:

Every time I see PDW I think PWC.. then I think chicks in bikinis.

[Coyote41]

No.

PDWs are something like a scout rifle. Neat to discuss and theorize about, but realistically a dated concept. I’m talking the true PDW concept like the HK P90 and HK MP7. If it fires a true rifle cartridge then it isn’t a PDW, it’s an SBR (or braced-pistol).

[TGS]

No.

PDWs are something like a scout rifle. Neat to discuss and theorize about, but realistically a dated concept. I’m talking the true PDW concept like the HK P90 and HK MP7. If it fires a true rifle cartridge then it isn’t a PDW, it’s an SBR (or braced-pistol).

Meh. That's a fairly dated and simplistic understanding of the concept of the PDW and misses the mark.

The term "PDW" may have been first used by a 1986 NATO RFP, but things have evolved since then to include the efficacy of short barrel 5.56 weapons (or 300 for that matter). The development of SCHV projectiles for that NATO requirement was due to the lack of functional SMG sized weapons in rifle calibers such as 5.56. That's not a problem anymore, but it doesn't mean an SMG-sized 5.56 isn't a PDW. They're very much PDWs, fulfilling the same conceptual use and also the industry using the term PDW in such a manner for 2 decades now.

The only dramatic difference in concept is that with the GWOT and explosion of the high-threat protection details employing PDWs, the PDW has developed a connotation for a concealable low-visibility platform, though it's not strictly necessary by the original NATO concept for use by uniformed military personnel.

Meh. Just another example of why we shouldn't have a PDW forum, because not everyone agrees on the definition and stuff that should go in the PDW thread won't, and stuff that should go in the rifle forum won't. Plenty of examples of people not being able to put shit in the correct threads/sub-forums outside this...we've already got people talking about non-collapsible 16" ARs in the PDW thread and people posting pictures of a SCAR in a Mk18 thread.

All the more reason to just let it all be in the rifle forum.

[Gray Ghost]

if we want to be semantic (and we all know how I am with semantics). The pistol-versions of ARs and other PDWs should just be in the semi-automatic pistol sub-forum. I'm paranoid, to a degree, but placing pistols in the pistol sub-forum, instead of in the Rifle and Carbines sub-forum seems like it might be a good idea from a potential legal justification stand point (i.e., it indicates you didn't intend to use your brace-equipped pistol as a rifle..or some such non-sense).

I think this is the best argument for a PDW subforum. The PDW concept as discussed includes both rifles and pistols. It blurs the lines.

[Caballoflaco]

Meh. That's a fairly dated and simplistic understanding of the concept of the PDW and misses the mark.

The term "PDW" may have been first used by a 1986 NATO RFP, but things have evolved since then to include the efficacy of short barrel 5.56 weapons (or 300 for that matter). The development of SCHV projectiles for that NATO requirement was due to the lack of functional SMG sized weapons in rifle calibers such as 5.56. That's not a problem anymore, but it doesn't mean an SMG-sized 5.56 isn't a PDW. They're very much PDWs, fulfilling the same conceptual use and also the industry using the term PDW in such a manner for 2 decades now.

The only dramatic difference in concept is that with the GWOT and explosion of the high-threat protection details employing PDWs, the PDW has developed a connotation for a concealable low-visibility platform, though it's not strictly necessary by the original NATO concept for use by uniformed military personnel.


Meanwhile the Russians have been laughing in suchka since 1979.

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