PDA

View Full Version : Is reloading from slide lock really slower than a speed reload?



DonovanM
05-22-2012, 06:59 PM
You be the judge. Maybe a little bit, but I don't really think so. I think the slide stop is just one more thing to do and shouldn't slow you down much.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On47qnk5YeA

ToddG
05-22-2012, 07:45 PM
Depends completely on the ergonomics of the gun. My in and out of battery reloads with most guns are identical.

peterb
05-22-2012, 07:46 PM
Why just think? Why not measure?

http://gunnuts.net/2011/08/09/speaking-of-reloads/

http://pistol-training.com/archives/160

Slavex
05-22-2012, 07:50 PM
My in battery reloads are slightly faster with my Shadow as well my 2nd shot after the reload is usually faster too as I seem to get a better grip on the gun with the in battery reloads. Could be just a mental block though.

DonovanM
05-22-2012, 07:56 PM
Why just think? Why not measure?

http://gunnuts.net/2011/08/09/speaking-of-reloads/

http://pistol-training.com/archives/160

I don't have a shot timer :(

It looks like these links are talking about overhand vs. slide stop though, both on a locked back situation. That ship has sailed for me. There seems to be a common misconception though - maybe not here it looks like - that a slide lock reload is slower than an in-battery/speed reload.

GJM
05-23-2012, 01:36 AM
1) must assume using your dominant thumb on the slide stop, as support thumb on the slide stop adds time?

2) must also assume you know the slide is about to lock back, so there is not a delay for recognition of being at slide lock versus the slide forward reload you initiate.

ToddG
05-23-2012, 01:42 AM
1) must assume using your dominant thumb on the slide stop, as support thumb on the slide stop adds time?

I believe this is so, especially if you adhere to the school of thought that you shouldn't present the gun forward before you've established both hands' grip on the gun after the reload.


2) must also assume you know the slide is about to lock back, so there is not a delay for recognition of being at slide lock versus the slide forward reload you initiate.

That's a very good point. OTOH, you'd only do the in-battery reload as a voluntary step (it would never be "from surprise") so it's sort of apples & oranges.

GJM
05-23-2012, 01:58 AM
Question on slide stop manipulation, now that I am shooting a Glock, as opposed to the M&P which only seemed to occasionally require use of the slide stop. :)

When trying to preload the slide stop, I induced a stoppage too much, if I had any hiccup in seating the magazine, to be comfortable with this method. Using the slide stop with my support thumb was reliable in terms of not inducing a stoppage, but slow.

Keeping my dominant thumb down off the slide stop until the magazine is seated, seems to avoid inducing stoppages, but be no detriment to speed, since my support thumb is still slower back to the frame than my dominant thumb -- this sound right?

ToddG
05-23-2012, 02:05 AM
When trying to preload the slide stop, I induced a stoppage too much, if I had any hiccup in seating the magazine, to be comfortable with this method.

What kind of stoppage?


Keeping my dominant thumb down off the slide stop until the magazine is seated, seems to avoid inducing stoppages, but be no detriment to speed, since my support thumb is still slower back to the frame than my dominant thumb -- this sound right?

Have you measured it on a timer and if so what is the difference? Especially given your extensive 1911 experience I'd think the WH thumb would be very natural for you.

Beyond that, I'm not crazy about the idea of putting my SH thumb there during the reload. You're having to move it up (to above the lever) then back down (to press the lever) then back up (to your neutral grip position). It seems like a lot of movement and opportunity to mess up other aspects of your SH grip. But if it works for you with your hands and your gun, and on the clock it's faster than using the WH thumb, drive on. First rule: if it works for you, it works.

DonovanM
05-23-2012, 11:49 AM
The time it takes for the old mag to drop free and the new mag coming up to meet the gun has always been enough time for me to identify and address an unexpected slide lock reload.

167
05-23-2012, 12:19 PM
The only thing I can think of that would change the amount time it takes to do a speed reload as opposed to a slide lock reload is if I already had my spare mag up at the gun before dropping the partial magazine.

In competition it doesn't make sense to do that. In a defensive context I guess it kinda sorta might make sense.

LOKNLOD
05-23-2012, 12:35 PM
The time it takes for the old mag to drop free and the new mag coming up to meet the gun has always been enough time for me to identify and address an unexpected slide lock reload.

Don't you have to have already identified and addressed the unexpected slide lock reload in order to initiate the old mag dropping free and the new mag heading towards the gun?

Steve S.
05-23-2012, 03:35 PM
Question on slide stop manipulation, now that I am shooting a Glock, as opposed to the M&P which only seemed to occasionally require use of the slide stop. :)

When trying to preload the slide stop, I induced a stoppage too much, if I had any hiccup in seating the magazine, to be comfortable with this method. Using the slide stop with my support thumb was reliable in terms of not inducing a stoppage, but slow.

Keeping my dominant thumb down off the slide stop until the magazine is seated, seems to avoid inducing stoppages, but be no detriment to speed, since my support thumb is still slower back to the frame than my dominant thumb -- this sound right?

I know exactly what you mean. I think it's a very bad idea to preload the slide stop. Its fast, but you will end up with a type 1 malf about 50% of the time in my experience. I would occasionally do this unintentionally under stress. Once was on an IDPA qualifier, and luckily the round stripped off.

Honestly, it was enough of a nuisance that i have since focused on using the weak thumb for emergency reloads. The time lost using weak thumb is pretty minimal in my experience, and much quicker and safer then the possibility of having the slide fail to strip off a round.

ToddG
05-23-2012, 05:11 PM
Don't you have to have already identified and addressed the unexpected slide lock reload in order to initiate the old mag dropping free and the new mag heading towards the gun?

I was thinking from that point of view, as well, but I believe they mean "you decided to do a speed reload and half way through you realize the slide is locked back on an empty chamber."


I know exactly what you mean. I think it's a very bad idea to preload the slide stop. Its fast, but you will end up with a type 1 malf about 50% of the time in my experience.

I don't know what a "type 1" malfunction is, but that hasn't been my experience (nor the experience of multiple agencies which have adopted it) in all the years I've been doing it with the guns I've used: various SIGs, M&P, P30, HK45, and various Glocks.

YVK
05-23-2012, 08:23 PM
When trying to preload the slide stop, I induced a stoppage too much, if I had any hiccup in seating the magazine, to be comfortable with this method. Using the slide stop with my support thumb was reliable in terms of not inducing a stoppage, but slow.

Keeping my dominant thumb down off the slide stop until the magazine is seated, seems to avoid inducing stoppages, but be no detriment to speed, since my support thumb is still slower back to the frame than my dominant thumb -- this sound right?

G., I am in a middle of the same issue with P30. The number of times I dropped the slide a fraction too soon is freaking annoying. I had to do remedial sessions on this, but it still happens when I push my times. As as separate tidbit, the number of these errors went up considerably in days before trs broke; that makes me think that spring failure is not an instantaneous but a gradual process.

I think the answer is to do it how Todd teaches - drive the slide stop into your thumb, if it works for you (I could never drop the slide that way on a Glock); keeping the strong thumb relaxed is yet another aspect that requires quite a bit of training for me.

ToddG
05-24-2012, 08:16 AM
I don't keep the thumb relaxed, I keep it rigid. The trick is simply learning not to press down or otherwise increase the amount of pressure you're placing on the slide release lever. You fix your thumb in place and let the momentum of the gun do the rest.

LOKNLOD
05-24-2012, 08:57 AM
I was thinking from that point of view, as well, but I believe they mean "you decided to do a speed reload and half way through you realize the slide is locked back on an empty chamber."


In that case, I'd agree with the "apples and oranges" comment you made earlier.


I think the various reload methods are going to vary in impact to time differently dependent on combination of individual + weapon.

The questions you have to ask yourself, and verify with experimentation, are along the lines of "is this manipulation on the critical path between the gun firing its last round, and firing the first round of the next magazine?" and "If so, does it lengthen or shorten the critical path versus other options?" (and perhaps finally, "does it have an otherwise tangible benefit that might override the increase in time?").

David Armstrong
05-24-2012, 10:52 AM
If there is any diffference I doubt it is enough of a difference to matter in anything other than a rather rare competition arena. Just my $.02.

YVK
05-24-2012, 11:05 AM
I don't keep the thumb relaxed, I keep it rigid.

True, I remember you saying that.


The trick is simply learning not to press down or otherwise increase the amount of pressure you're placing on the slide release lever. You fix your thumb in place and let the momentum of the gun do the rest.

I resent the word "simply"...Did 20 dry-fire reloads last night, 19 fine, one - dropped slide so cleanly, it didn't even touch the top round in a fully seated mag...

ToddG
05-24-2012, 11:10 AM
So back off on the position of your thumb a bit and see if it will still drop 100% of the time without the 5% premature release. Simple!

YVK
05-24-2012, 04:35 PM
So back off on the position of your thumb a bit and see if it will still drop 100% of the time without the 5% premature release. Simple!

After live session today, all I can say is that old habits die slowly...

GJM
05-25-2012, 12:12 AM
What kind of stoppage?



Have you measured it on a timer and if so what is the difference? Especially given your extensive 1911 experience I'd think the WH thumb would be very natural for you.

Beyond that, I'm not crazy about the idea of putting my SH thumb there during the reload. You're having to move it up (to above the lever) then back down (to press the lever) then back up (to your neutral grip position). It seems like a lot of movement and opportunity to mess up other aspects of your SH grip. But if it works for you with your hands and your gun, and on the clock it's faster than using the WH thumb, drive on. First rule: if it works for you, it works.

Been out in the wilds of Alaska, and just got to test this this afternoon.

Yes, the support thumb is very natural. As much as I try to keep the strong thumb still, with the preloading method, I end up with the slide forward and no cartridge, more than I am willing to accept.

Using the strong thumb, by moving it up to the slide stop as/after I seat the magazine is about .20 faster for me than using the support thumb, and seems as reliable as using the support thumb.

JeffJ
05-25-2012, 08:31 AM
Just gonna say it - Simple does not mean easy :D

Steve S.
05-25-2012, 05:23 PM
I don't know what a "type 1" malfunction is, but that hasn't been my experience (nor the experience of multiple agencies which have adopted it) in all the years I've been doing it with the guns I've used: various SIGs, M&P, P30, HK45, and various Glocks.

I'm fairly certain you've heard the term "type 1 malfunction" before. But for the sake of discussion, in a nutshell it's anything fixed by a tap, rack, bang (or assess, if thats your bag).

To be clear, I had no idea you taught pre loading the slide stop, so it is by no means a dig at your instruction. I'm unfortunate that I haven't had a chance to take AFHF yet (I will though). I'm also fairly certain you probably teach a variation of the technique as I know it if you're having success with it.

But I'm not the only one in this thread who experiences themselves with an empty chamber when pre loading the slide stop. And it kind of begs the question, is the slight increase in speed worth the possibility (strong or slight) of having a "click" instead of a "boom" - whether on the street, on the range, or competition environment?

I'm not discounting anyone's choice, but the answer to that question for my level of training at this point is "no". The weak thumb is certainly slower, so if I could reliably pre load the slide stop, I would be doing it.

Again, this is nothing personal against anyone or their techniques. Cheers.

YVK
05-25-2012, 06:18 PM
I'm fairly certain you've heard the term "type 1 malfunction" before.

I don't believe I've heard the immediate vs remedial type of malfunctions applied to a pistol before, although I presume why not. I've only heard this classification in carbine classes and I don't even think that it is something that's universally accepted. I took carbine classes from 7 different instructors and I am only certain of one using it routinely. Hence, I am not surprised Todd has not heard of it.

Back to pre-load, I achieved a 0% fail rate yesterday with P30 by preloading a trigger finger on the right lever and a thumb, as an "insurance policy", slightly off of left lever. The sample size of repetitions is too small to come to any conclusions, I didn't time myself since it is all too new, it is P30-specific, but I think it may have a future.

GJM
05-25-2012, 06:33 PM
I don't see it solely as support versus strong thumb. I am finding that using my strong thumb after seating the magazine versus pre-loading is giving me a faster speed than using my support thumb, but the same reliability as using my support thumb.

ToddG
05-25-2012, 08:34 PM
I'm fairly certain you've heard the term "type 1 malfunction" before. But for the sake of discussion, in a nutshell it's anything fixed by a tap, rack, bang (or assess, if thats your bag).

I've heard all sorts of things often with completely different definitions depending on who was saying them. That's why I asked.


But I'm not the only one in this thread who experiences themselves with an empty chamber when pre loading the slide stop.

So hopefully it goes without saying, but: if you cause the slide to release early, you're not doing it right.


And it kind of begs the question, is the slight increase in speed worth the possibility (strong or slight) of having a "click" instead of a "boom" - whether on the street, on the range, or competition environment?

How slight is slight? Have you measured it?

Otherwise, I agree with you 100% and actually tell students that exact thing. If you cannot reliably reach the slide release with your shooting hand thumb, or if you cannot reliably release the slide with your shooting hand thumb, or if you cannot reliably load the gun doing so, then the strong hand thumb is not how I'd recommend dropping the slide.

Steve S.
05-26-2012, 01:33 AM
I've heard all sorts of things often with completely different definitions depending on who was saying them. That's why I asked.

Fair enough. I was going off my phone and wanted a blanket statement to describe several types of malfunctions.


So hopefully it goes without saying, but: if you cause the slide to release early, you're not doing it right.

I mentioned exactly that above. I would be interested in the correct way to apply the technique, if it's something that can be discussed publicly online without the need of physical demonstration.


How slight is slight? Have you measured it?

Sort of, but no. I time myself, but never was the focus of timing "pre-loading the slide stop vs weak thumb". Honestly, I was shown the technique awhile back, and after experiencing malfunctions, having a better time wouldn't have been enough to persuade me to use it. If I could get it to a zero percent chance of having an empty chamber or failure to feed - I'd be interested in the technique. I would just need to know a fool-proof way to do it, particularly under stress. I have also been in a class or two that are strongly against it (an opinion I'd reach prior already, so I never put much thought into it).


Otherwise, I agree with you 100% and actually tell students that exact thing. If you cannot reliably reach the slide release with your shooting hand thumb, or if you cannot reliably release the slide with your shooting hand thumb, or if you cannot reliably load the gun doing so, then the strong hand thumb is not how I'd recommend dropping the slide.

I don't know that that's the issue. I can do the above three no problem (big hands). I'm just in the past year trying to move from strong thumb to weak thumb when dropping the slide. This decision was after talking to a local instructor about the issue, and there were some good points in favor of weak thumb. So it's been a journey to make that transition of only using the strong thumb during malfunctions. Believe me when I say, I would LOVE to pre-load the slide stop. It's incredibly fast and intuitive. I just can't practice that technique without knowing the fool proof way of doing it.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this. And again, I honestly had no idea you taught it - so there's no agenda here.

Surf
05-27-2012, 07:02 PM
What timing for this thread. Just so happens I had shot video on this topic and seeing this thread I went ahead and edited and published the video. Because of the different video's I have out in regards to reloading etc and just with all of my teaching and training interactions, I personally get asked about this topic often enough. First I will mention that I am not a competition shooter and that there are indeed guys out there that can flat out smoke me, but I do have a good advantage in testing the various slide release techniques as I do attempt to stay proficient in all of them just because of the need to suit various weapon types and student bases / needs.

I do have my primary and favorite technique and of course this is based on the weapon primarily and that technique is to release the slide with my primary shooting hands thumb. I mostly shoot Sig Sauer, Glock and Beretta M9/92 pistols with this technique. I do shoot a good deal of 1911's and 5906's so I do use a support hand thumb release quite a bit. Also when running full fingered gloves I use an overhand release. I will also support the fact that any technique needs to be highly reliable / repeatable especially in regards to using a pistol as a critical use weapon. Now a shooters efficiency and reliability often boils down to proper and correct training. As an example, when I use the primary shooting hand thumb as a release it is just as reliable as any other technique that I employ. Again it boils down to training and employing a correct and proper technique. Now everyone is not the same and some people just don't "get it" when it comes to certain things. If that is the case for a shooter then perhaps another technique might be better suited.

I understand and agree that reliability or repeatability of a technique is key, however we should not or cannot discount speed or the time that it takes us to get our weapon back into the fight. One FBI study that I pretty much agree with, is that we should think of another round coming at us every .25 seconds in a gunfight. So in essence we should train to save time in everything that we do when our pistol goes empty or when we have a malfunction. I consider myself a pretty proficient shooter and I literally save almost a half a second from my primary shooting thumb release technique to the next fastest technique. Since I have no loss in reliability or repeatability, that can become a huge game changer if the need arises.

Here is the video where I compare 5 techniques on a timer.
1 - Overhand Release
2 - Slingshot Release
3 - Support hand thumb release
4 - Primary hand thumb release
5 - Speed Reload

I threw in the speed reload just to compare it to the primary hand thumb release. I am pretty much dead on with times and came up with the exact 3 run average on times between both.

If you just want to see the shooting you can skip to it in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFyFAgugiU

Al T.
05-27-2012, 08:01 PM
Too funny. I popped back on to post this video. :D

GJM
05-27-2012, 10:44 PM
Surf, thanks much for posting his video. I had been having problems pre loading the slide stop, but this evening when I tried your method of indexing the thumb above the slide stop, I had zero stoppages with many reps.