9mm fmj vs 45 fmj performance?

[john c]

Can someone point me to a resource for 9mm fmj vs 45 ACP fmj performance comparison?

Various sources I have mention the wound channels are similar, but don't have any specifics.

[the Schwartz]

Can someone point me to a resource for 9mm fmj vs 45 ACP fmj performance comparison?

Various sources I have mention the wound channels are similar, but don't have any specifics.

Any difference in terminal performance between a .45ACP and a 9mm Luger FMJRN is likely to be over-shadowed by shot placement (and what a specific FMJ hits) and other effects (e.g.: psychological state and the presence of pharmaceuticals in a given individual's body) before the minor difference in the projectiles' cross-sectional area and the tissue damage that they produce becomes important enough to matter.

The only legitimate comparison (in validated 10% concentration ordnance gelatin) that I am aware of between a .45 FMJRN and 9mm FMJRN exists on the Black Hills ammunition website and is composed of these two images:

9mm Luger 115-grain FMJ:

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.45 ACP 230-grain FMJRN:

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Take from these images what you will.

[03RN]

Ive had a 9mm nato deflect off a fisher cat skull at close range and exit out the tail. 147 fp-fmj seem to do better.

.45 ball seems to work better through barriers like deer shoulders.

[john c]

Charles;

Thank you. That's what I was looking for.

03RN;

Thank you. Your reference about the FP round brings up an interesting point. Apparently, the original Imperial German 9mm round was a FP, but was changed in WW1. From what we know today, from Keith and similar writers, it seems like the FP round would have been a much better choice for the NATO round in service use. It's kind of like a half wadcutter design.

[BehindBlueI's]

If we're assuming bulk FMJ, the biggest differences I saw was with barriers. 9mm tended to fragment too early, especially through auto glass. .45 held together better and if it did shed it's jacket and start to break apart the pieces were bigger so they still penetrated further then the 9mm pieces. Both did weird things hitting car sheet metal at angles, sometimes penetrating, sometimes deflecting. Both could ride ribs or skulls at the right angles.

[Duelist]

Tough old mesquite stump: .45 ACP 230gr FMJ bounced off or stuck to the surface. 9mm 115gr FMJ penetrated several inches.

Only time I’ve fired them at the same penetration resisting thing at the same time. Probably not significant of anything, but I found it interesting.

Federal 9BP will punch through a dead range cow’s heaviest leg bones.

Redneck penetration tests: what do they actually signify, anyway? :rolleyes:

[the Schwartz]

Simply for the sake of further perspective, there is also a test image of a .380ACP 100-grain FMJRN on the Black Hills ammunition website, that demonstrates equally unremarkable performance in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin.

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Evaluating all three FMJRNs using the US Army BRL P[I/H] model (which remains part of the ORCA ballistic insult subroutine contained within the MUVES-S2 combat system SLV (survivability/lethality/vulnerability) software package), there appears to be little difference among the three FMJRNs. see: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a513848.pdf


For the purpose of making an ''apples-to-apples'' comparison, computed P[I/H] values (using manufacturer published velocities) are shown for each test as probabilities of incapacitation occurring within a 30-second time-frame:


.380 ACP 100-grain FMJRN at 850 fps P[I/H] = 55.047%
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9mm Luger 115-grain FMJRN at 1,150 fps P[I/H] = 65.831%
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.45ACP 230-grain FMJRN at 850 fps P[I/H] = 65.615%
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Again, take from these images what you will. :)

[Lost River]

I have shot a LOT of animals with .45 ball. Not as many with 9mm ball. Probably less than a 100.

Examples/observation. Often a jackrabbit will take a hit with a 230 grain FMJ then jump, then run off into the brush and disappear with barely any effect. Unless you hit something structural/CNS. However, if you switch to a simple semi wadcutter, the difference is substantially different. It cookie cutters a hole into them, and bores a bullet diameter hole through them. That usually flattens them DRT.

Same thing applies with 9mm.

Here is a rabbit shot with a 9mm ball round. Note there is pretty much no damage externally. This one expired because it was CNS'ed based on the bang flop and feeling him afterward (broken spine/right at the back of the head).

https://i.imgur.com/YerwjPR.jpg

.45 is a pretty effective at breaking heavy bones and continuing on, but the wound channels are not at all impressive. It certainly is effective, but permanent meat damage is minimal.

If I have FMJ on board, I usually go for head shots if possible.

Same holds true for putting down large animals. I use the ear hole to eye hole method. I put the bullet in through the close ear hole in an intended path that would have it exit the opposite side eye. This has worked for me for years (killing vehicle struck animals, cattle horses, elk deer, etc.) Last year I believe I mention that I killed a cow elk that had just been struck by a vehicle in front of me on my way to my cabin.

The 2 gentlemen who were driving the truck that struck her that were from the city had nothing more than a pocket knife between the two of them and that cow was going to kick and injure both if they even tried to put her down. Anyways, with this method of "ear hole to eye hole", a .22 to will drop the biggest animal out there (if you can shoot).

In regards to gel blocks that people always show, I don't have any real experience. I just shoot critters.

https://i.imgur.com/iSQZPdQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/706t1AL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HwGWVvM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Nc4eQbr.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/hkmu2QK.jpg


Malamute

I recall that Malamute has had similar results in reference to the subject.

[Lost River]

Here is that pic.

Ear hole to eye hole.

You can see where the bullet exited, and she was given a painless, merciful death. You can also see her front quarter where she was struck.

https://i.imgur.com/jZh48sI.jpg

Interesting note. I did not have a tarp with me, as I was going to salvage a couple of hind quarters. I ran into the little town of Arco Idaho (the first town in the world to be powered by atomic energy) to get one, and when I returned 20 minutes later, the entire animal was gone. :eek:

Your typical cow is roughly 500 pounds. My guess is that one of the farmers/ranchers who was checking cows came upon her and hoisted her onto their flatbed or into a stock trailer and took her back to the house. No matter, as long as someone salvaged the meat. That's over 100 pounds of elk steaks. Not to mention the back straps.:cool:

[the Schwartz]

I have shot a LOT of animals with .45 ball. Not as many with 9mm ball. Probably less than a 100.

Examples/observation. Often a jackrabbit will take a hit with a 230 grain FMJ then jump, then run off into the brush and disappear with barely any effect. Unless you hit something structural/CNS. However, if you switch to a simple semi wadcutter, the difference is substantially different. It cookie cutters a hole into them, and bores a bullet diameter hole through them. That usually flattens them DRT.

Same thing applies with 9mm.

Here is a rabbit shot with a 9mm ball round. Note there is pretty much no damage externally. This one expired because it was CNS'ed based on the bang flop and feeling him afterward (broken spine/right at the back of the head).

https://i.imgur.com/YerwjPR.jpg

.45 is a pretty effective at breaking heavy bones and continuing on, but the wound channels are not at all impressive. It certainly is effective, but permanent meat damage is minimal.

If I have FMJ on board, I usually go for head shots if possible.

Same holds true for putting down large animals. I use the ear hole to eye hole method. I put the bullet in through the close ear hole in an intended path that would have it exit the opposite side eye. This has worked for me for years (killing vehicle struck animals, cattle horses, elk deer, etc.) Last year I believe I mention that I killed a cow elk that had just been struck by a vehicle in front of me on my way to my cabin.

The 2 gentlemen who were driving the truck that struck her that were from the city had nothing more than a pocket knife between the two of them and that cow was going to kick and injure both if they even tried to put her down. Anyways, with this method of "ear hole to eye hole", a .22 to will drop the biggest animal out there (if you can shoot).

In regards to gel blocks that people always show, I don't have any real experience. I just shoot critters.

https://i.imgur.com/iSQZPdQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/706t1AL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HwGWVvM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Nc4eQbr.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/hkmu2QK.jpg


Malamute

I recall that Malamute has had similar results in reference to the subject.

Your experience in the field appears to agree strongly with the gelatin test results and analyses above. At least in animal test subjects of various sizes, it seems that there is precious little difference in the terminal performance of 9mm and .45 ball.


Interesting note. I did not have a tarp with me, as I was going to salvage a couple of hind quarters. I ran into the little town of Arco Idaho (the first town in the world to be powered by atomic energy) to get one, and when I returned 20 minutes later, the entire animal was gone. :eek:

Evidently, she ''got better''. ;)

[Lost River]

Maybe she was a witch!

[RevolverRob]

So, I just want to boil this one straight down - in case anyone comes along.

FMJ, e.g., "ball" ammo in pistol calibers works about the same regardless of caliber. Larger bullet weights (e.g., 180+ grains) do better with intermediate barriers than lighter bullet weights.

If you're going to shoot non-expanding ammunition in pistol calibers - Wadcutters, semi-wadcutters, flat points, or monolithic-fluted type bullets (e.g., Lehigh) should all move to the top of the list as the bullets of choice.

Round-nosed FMJs are pretty much for shooting into targets with berms behind them. If you shoot them at animals/people/cars they may well do weird bouncy things, compared to some kind of truncated projectile. If you do have to shoot them at animals/people/cars - shot placement is key.

In fact, regardless of caliber and bullet selection - shot placement is key.

___

Did I summarize that sufficiently?

[Trooper224]

https://i.imgur.com/706t1AL.jpg



That badger is laughing at your Glock.

[Trooper224]

9mm penetrates the cab of a John Deere Combine better than .45.

[Bucky]

That badger is laughing at your Glock.

It’s going to wake up, spit out the bullet, and walk away. Badger doesn’t give a sh*t.

[GunGeezer]

52794

[03RN]

52794

Lol
52796

[BobM]

It’s going to wake up, spit out the bullet, and walk away. Badger doesn’t give a sh*t.

During my last prairie dog trip to Montana, we got out of the truck to glass. I saw something about 30 feet away and realized it was a badger in a hole. It either didn’t notice or didn’t care that we we there. I then realized there were two of them and I pretty sure they were mating.

[Baldanders]

Redneck penetration tests: what do they actually signify, anyway? :rolleyes:

If you follow my "protocol," at least they are comparable to each other. 😎


Real answer: they give us something to talk about in threads like this

[Lost River]

That badger is laughing at your Glock.

That damn thing did not give a fock about me being armed!

It was truly a pure self defense shooting.

The final shot was literally right through the top of his head, a brain shot to stop him, and I had already shot him a few times though obviously not good enough..

He just kept coming at me. Absolutely ferocious little prick.

I was literally walking backwards cussing and shooting as fast as I could get decent shots at him. I bet I shot 7-8 rounds and got 3-4 hits on him before I killed him at a distance of 3 feet with the shot through the top of the skull. That was with JHPs too.

They are worse than bears.

[Trooper224]

That damn thing did not give a fock about me being armed!

It was truly a pure self defense shooting.

The final shot was literally right through the top of his head, a brain shot to stop him, and I had already shot him a few times though obviously not good enough..

He just kept coming at me. Absolutely ferocious little prick.

I was literally walking backwards cussing and shooting as fast as I could get decent shots at him. I bet I shot 7-8 rounds and got 3-4 hits on him before I killed him at a distance of 3 feet with the shot through the top of the skull. That was with JHPs too.

They are worse than bears.

When I was a child living in California, we had a huge black Manx cat who liked to go climb down badger holes and kill them. He'd then bring them home and disembowel them on the back porch. One day he disappeared and I'm pretty sure he finally found one bigger than himself.

[Bucky]

That damn thing did not give a fock about me being armed!

It was truly a pure self defense shooting.

The final shot was literally right through the top of his head, a brain shot to stop him, and I had already shot him a few times though obviously not good enough..

He just kept coming at me. Absolutely ferocious little prick.

I was literally walking backwards cussing and shooting as fast as I could get decent shots at him. I bet I shot 7-8 rounds and got 3-4 hits on him before I killed him at a distance of 3 feet with the shot through the top of the skull. That was with JHPs too.

They are worse than bears.

You should give Cuomo a call. It might not take 7 shots to kill a deer, but it takes at least that much to kill a badger. ;)

[Lost River]

This Badger vs 2 Coyotes video is pretty funny.

You have to watch to the end.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-EH2LahSI4

[Duelist]

This Badger vs 2 Coyotes video is pretty funny.

You have to watch to the end.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-EH2LahSI4

The other night, my wife and I saw 7 or so coyotes crossing the road from our highway into the desert between home and the school I work at. One big one stood in the road like a road guard watching us and our Brittany, and the road each direction too. Really interesting and kind of funny.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I know that I've seen gel profiles from DocGKR before showing FMJ performance from 9mm FMJ-RN and .45 ACP FMJ-RN. I can't find what I'm looking for right now and hope Doc will post them. I do recall that 9mm ball shows two yaw cycles during its path through gel (and other animate things) and that Black Hills image is a nearly exact match. Also interesting on this is that .22 LR HV solids show a yaw cycle also and I've noted the results of that on small game.

[DocGKR]

Look at the shape and CG of the bullets--standard 9mm NATO FMJ often demonstrates a multi-lobed yaw cycle in soft tissue, while .45 Auto USGI M1911 ball bores straight through. While a bit overly simplistic and ignoring multiple factors, in general, the higher velocity of 9mm defeats things like sheet steel and body armor better, while the greater mass of the .45 tends helps punch through things like auto glass and wall board. As always, shot placement is king and neither is optimal.

[the Schwartz]

I know that I've seen gel profiles from DocGKR before showing FMJ performance from 9mm FMJ-RN and .45 ACP FMJ-RN. I can't find what I'm looking for right now and hope Doc will post them. I do recall that 9mm ball shows two yaw cycles during its path through gel (and other animate things) and that Black Hills image is a nearly exact match. Also interesting on this is that .22 LR HV solids show a yaw cycle also and I've noted the results of that on small game.

Are you referring to these two profiles, Wayne?

52853

52854

[Velo Dog]

More comparison of 9x19mm and 45 Auto at brassfetcher.com

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Simulated%20Shotlines/Simulated%20Human%20Body.html

Very little difference in terminal performance.

[Lost River]

The other night, my wife and I saw 7 or so coyotes crossing the road from our highway into the desert between home and the school I work at. One big one stood in the road like a road guard watching us and our Brittany, and the road each direction too. Really interesting and kind of funny.

That would be pretty cool to see.

[Lost River]

One of our friends emailed about the pics and it brought up the topic of the jacks.

For those not familiar, jackrabbit populations go in cycles. High cycle years have absolutely incredible numbers, and it has not been unusual in years past to shoot a couple hundred rounds on a single hunt. Then when the numbers are down, you can drive for hours and not see a single jack. This also applies to the time of day/night when you hunt them.

I find that it is best to hunt them during the most severe of winter storms, or right before a blizzard, or when the weather is at its absolute coldest, as they will be most active. In the warmer months, late night, early morning is best. By mid morning they are pretty much done for the day and have taken refuge from the summer sun.

After a good storm or during a cold snap, such as below zero weather, and the hunting can be truly excellent.

Handgunning at its most fun.

https://i.imgur.com/rxV4Wh2.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/OyWwXrP.jpg

Rifles get used too.

I try not to use shotguns, as that is just too easy.

https://i.imgur.com/VWzhO33.jpg




When you really get bored you break out the J Frames:

https://i.imgur.com/shVql9G.jpg


More fun than a block of gel. :cool:

[revchuck38]

Lost River - Boy, that'd make a lot of gumbo! :)

[Wayne Dobbs]

Lost River - Boy, that'd make a lot of gumbo! :)

You'd need to be very hungry to eat a jack. Cleaning them is one of the few outdoor things that make me gag and the ones I've shot in Texas were just working in ticks.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Are you referring to these two profiles, Wayne?

52853

52854

That's what I was referring to. Thanks for posting them.

[03RN]

You'd need to be very hungry to eat a jack. Cleaning them is one of the few outdoor things that make me gag and the ones I've shot in Texas were just working in ticks.

I wonder why? Whats their diet?

Snowshoe hare is awesome

[Wayne Dobbs]

I wonder why? Whats their diet?

Snowshoe hare is awesome

I'd guess they have a plant diet, but the plants where they're located here are sparse and not very succulent. I recall my maternal grandfather, who was poor and a recovering alcoholic, saying that he used jackrabbits for chili and to bait catfish holes (!). I find cottontail to be very decent, exceeded by squirrel. I've not been hungry enough to eat a jack.

[Redhat]

I'd guess they have a plant diet, but the plants where they're located here are sparse and not very succulent. I recall my maternal grandfather, who was poor and a recovering alcoholic, saying that he used jackrabbits for chili and to bait catfish holes (!). I find cottontail to be very decent, exceeded by squirrel. I've not been hungry enough to eat a jack.

Come on ...I'll take cottontail over squirrel any day...

[Duelist]

You'd need to be very hungry to eat a jack. Cleaning them is one of the few outdoor things that make me gag and the ones I've shot in Texas were just working in ticks.

Friend of mine prefers to get jacks - more meat. He uses them in crock pot recipes.

Grandpa and his brothers used to hunt rabbits to feed the family in the 30s. Jacks, cottontails, coons, quail, they didn’t care. Whole passel of kids and their father had died, so the boys stepped up got small game with the family shotgun for dinner. Jacks were better for more meat per shotshell. And I guess they were plenty hungry.

[RevolverRob]

As always, shot placement is king and neither is optimal.

So...shooting them in 'em in the dick with a .22 is better than missing them a .50AE? Who woulda thunk that? :rolleyes: ;)

___

[Coyotesfan97]

The other night, my wife and I saw 7 or so coyotes crossing the road from our highway into the desert between home and the school I work at. One big one stood in the road like a road guard watching us and our Brittany, and the road each direction too. Really interesting and kind of funny.

I’ve seen coyotes doing that. It’s usually the bigger packs it seems. Small group tactics seem to be a mad dash across roads. I’ve seen packs of 8-10 in my front yard. The other night I had four Javelinas walking down my south fence line. One of my dogs was going nuts to I went to check. One was very big.

Do you ever see them lying in the grass at your school? There’s a Junior High about a miles from us and I’ve seen coyotes lying in the grass under shade trees in the mid afternoon.

[Duelist]

I’ve seen coyotes doing that. It’s usually the bigger packs it seems. Small group tactics seem to be a mad dash across roads. I’ve seen packs of 8-10 in my front yard. The other night I had four Javelinas walking down my south fence line. One of my dogs was going nuts to I went to check. One was very big.

Do you ever see them lying in the grass at your school? There’s a Junior High about a miles from us and I’ve seen coyotes lying in the grass under shade trees in the mid afternoon.

I’ve not seen them do that. There’s a wash on the north side of the school that seems to be their highway once the cross the paved road. They haven’t been out in the grassy areas that I’ve seen, anyway. We have a lot of sports teams all afternoon and PE classes out there pretty frequently during the day.

Well. Normally. ;)

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve not seen them do that. There’s a wash on the north side of the school that seems to be their highway once the cross the paved road. They haven’t been out in the grassy areas that I’ve seen, anyway. We have a lot of sports teams all afternoon and PE classes out there pretty frequently during the day.

Well. Normally. ;)

Ha. I did a double take. They were between the street and the fence for the school. Just chillin’ they didn’t even move when I drove by.

[DocGKR]

"So...shooting them in 'em in the dick with a .22 is better than missing them a .50AE? Who woulda thunk that?"

More likely to be a psychological stop than an immediate or rapid physiologic one, given the paucity of critical life sustaining anatomy in that location.

[Crazy Dane]

When i first moved to Idaho I was impressed with the size of the rabbits and ended up eat a few. They are not a southern cottontail by a long shot nor are they as good as a snowshoe but I wouldn't never be hungry with jacks around.

[Caballoflaco]

My country Grandmother taught me that you can make most any meat edible if it’s pan fried for 3-5 minutes a side and then cooked until tender in this.

52939

[Joe in PNG]

My country Grandmother taught me that you can make most any meat edible if it’s pan fried for 3-5 minutes a side and then cooked until tender in this.

52939

Curry also works.

[Crazy Dane]

My country Grandmother taught me that you can make most any meat edible if it’s pan fried for 3-5 minutes a side and then cooked until tender in this.

52939


Insta pot before insta pot was cool. I have both of my grandmas pressure cookers described as large and oh my, you can put a whole pig in that one.

[sheepdog]

I don't even own a .45 handgun at the moment (just .380, 9mm's, and a .357 SIG), but I do tend to shoot 45 more accurately than 9mm (and even slightly more so than even .357 SIG). From what I've seen, real world data documenting shootings tends to support this (https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power).

That said, there is something to be said about "practical accuracy". I would even argue a little dispersion is better than keyholing someone as that second and third bullet might pass right through an attacker's body dumping most of its energy (not that keyholing is likely in a self-defense situation). In fact, even though the data I've seen shows .45 ACP was significantly more accurate, it was NOT more effective (or at least only marginally so). For example, 9mm's ability to incapacitate was a point higher, but that was certainly within the margin of error pertaining to its potential for failing to incapacitate someone. As such, the superior accuracy on average does not offer much of a tactical advantage (though it might make up for the less than impressive wound channel of the slower .45 projectile).

That said, .45 ACP is typically subsonic, so it also makes for a great suppressor host (because it doesn't rely as much on velocity to create energy). When 9mm is subsonic it is going to lose a lot of ft. lbs. of energy.

[Lost River]

I wonder why? Whats their diet?

Snowshoe hare is awesome

I personally never eat the Jacks. As to the question of what they eat, they are herbivores. They like tender grasses, which for a good part of the year can be few and far between in the high desert. Sagebrush is plentiful so they go for the fresh buds/leaves on it so they will be seen sitting under a piece of brush chowing down. They will also tear into an alfalfa field pretty good, as well as a hay stack. When they do, they leave their droppings on and in the hay which can destroy much of it if the population density is high.

Snowshoe hares are a bit larger, and are actually edible (same family). They can be found, but in far lesser numbers. I see a few each year when big game hunting but don't normally shoot any due to the fact that I don't want to spook my primary quarry.

[DocGKR]

"When 9mm is subsonic it is going to lose a lot of ft. lbs. of energy."

Why does that matter?

Of what importance is ft/lbs "energy" to terminal performance and incapacitation potential/

[Bucky]

That said, .45 ACP is typically subsonic, so it also makes for a great suppressor host (because it doesn't rely as much on velocity to create energy). When 9mm is subsonic it is going to lose a lot of ft. lbs. of energy.


147g 9mm mostly subsonic, and offers the best choice of premium 9mm defense rounds when excluding +P or +P+ offerings.


Why does that matter?

Of what importance is ft/lbs "energy" to terminal performance and incapacitation potential/

I'm going to go on a limb here and assume there is an assumption of subsonic ammo means downloading, as would be the case in most of the 115 and many of the 124g offerings, overlooking that 147 is subsonic in its native offerings.

[Trooper224]

I don't even own a .45 handgun at the moment (just .380, 9mm's, and a .357 SIG), but I do tend to shoot 45 more accurately than 9mm (and even slightly more so than even .357 SIG). From what I've seen, real world data documenting shootings tends to support this (https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power).

That said, there is something to be said about "practical accuracy". I would even argue a little dispersion is better than keyholing someone as that second and third bullet might pass right through an attacker's body dumping most of its energy (not that keyholing is likely in a self-defense situation). In fact, even though the data I've seen shows .45 ACP was significantly more accurate, it was NOT more effective (or at least only marginally so). For example, 9mm's ability to incapacitate was a point higher, but that was certainly within the margin of error pertaining to its potential for failing to incapacitate someone. As such, the superior accuracy on average does not offer much of a tactical advantage (though it might make up for the less than impressive wound channel of the slower .45 projectile).

That said, .45 ACP is typically subsonic, so it also makes for a great suppressor host (because it doesn't rely as much on velocity to create energy). When 9mm is subsonic it is going to lose a lot of ft. lbs. of energy.

Bro, you're trying to have a 1990's discussion on ballistics.

[BehindBlueI's]

That said, there is something to be said about "practical accuracy". I would even argue a little dispersion is better than keyholing someone as that second and third bullet might pass right through an attacker's body dumping most of its energy (not that keyholing is likely in a self-defense situation)..

Seriously, your post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the topic. "Dispersion" is an excuse for people who can't shoot. Humans aren't 2D targets and are made up of stretchy and gooey bits and you aren't going to get a fucking pass through because you hit the same spot...which you aren't going to do anyway.


Ft/Lbs =/= wounding. Energy dump is meaningless in this conversation.

[jd950]

Humans aren't 2D targets and are made up of stretchy and gooey bits...

And, sadly, I find that as the years pass, I seem to have more and more stretchy and gooey bits.

Well, that doesn't sound quite like I intended, but you get the idea.

[03RN]

I don't even own a .45 handgun at the moment (just .380, 9mm's, and a .357 SIG), but I do tend to shoot 45 more accurately than 9mm (and even slightly more so than even .357 SIG). From what I've seen, real world data documenting shootings tends to support this (https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power).

That said, there is something to be said about "practical accuracy". I would even argue a little dispersion is better than keyholing someone as that second and third bullet might pass right through an attacker's body dumping most of its energy (not that keyholing is likely in a self-defense situation). In fact, even though the data I've seen shows .45 ACP was significantly more accurate, it was NOT more effective (or at least only marginally so). For example, 9mm's ability to incapacitate was a point higher, but that was certainly within the margin of error pertaining to its potential for failing to incapacitate someone. As such, the superior accuracy on average does not offer much of a tactical advantage (though it might make up for the less than impressive wound channel of the slower .45 projectile).

That said, .45 ACP is typically subsonic, so it also makes for a great suppressor host (because it doesn't rely as much on velocity to create energy). When 9mm is subsonic it is going to lose a lot of ft. lbs. of energy.

I lost it at " I would even argue a little dispersion is better "

[Wayne Dobbs]

I don't even own a .45 handgun at the moment (just .380, 9mm's, and a .357 SIG), but I do tend to shoot 45 more accurately than 9mm (and even slightly more so than even .357 SIG). From what I've seen, real world data documenting shootings tends to support this (https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power).

That said, there is something to be said about "practical accuracy". I would even argue a little dispersion is better than keyholing someone as that second and third bullet might pass right through an attacker's body dumping most of its energy (not that keyholing is likely in a self-defense situation). In fact, even though the data I've seen shows .45 ACP was significantly more accurate, it was NOT more effective (or at least only marginally so). For example, 9mm's ability to incapacitate was a point higher, but that was certainly within the margin of error pertaining to its potential for failing to incapacitate someone. As such, the superior accuracy on average does not offer much of a tactical advantage (though it might make up for the less than impressive wound channel of the slower .45 projectile).

That said, .45 ACP is typically subsonic, so it also makes for a great suppressor host (because it doesn't rely as much on velocity to create energy). When 9mm is subsonic it is going to lose a lot of ft. lbs. of energy.

sheepdog

Go read all the stickies at the top of this forum, then read them again and study the material. We've learned a great deal about wound ballistics since a hard lesson in 1986. If you need further (credible) resources, there are plenty and I would be glad to assist you in your learning journey.

[LittleLebowski]

I don't even own a .45 handgun at the moment (just .380, 9mm's, and a .357 SIG), but I do tend to shoot 45 more accurately than 9mm (and even slightly more so than even .357 SIG). From what I've seen, real world data documenting shootings tends to support this (https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power).

That said, there is something to be said about "practical accuracy". I would even argue a little dispersion is better than keyholing someone as that second and third bullet might pass right through an attacker's body dumping most of its energy (not that keyholing is likely in a self-defense situation). In fact, even though the data I've seen shows .45 ACP was significantly more accurate, it was NOT more effective (or at least only marginally so). For example, 9mm's ability to incapacitate was a point higher, but that was certainly within the margin of error pertaining to its potential for failing to incapacitate someone. As such, the superior accuracy on average does not offer much of a tactical advantage (though it might make up for the less than impressive wound channel of the slower .45 projectile).

That said, .45 ACP is typically subsonic, so it also makes for a great suppressor host (because it doesn't rely as much on velocity to create energy). When 9mm is subsonic it is going to lose a lot of ft. lbs. of energy.

Wow.

[Tom Duffy]

My gun isn't really good at "dispersion". Luckily, I know how to help it out. :)

[Kanye Wyoming]

Wow.
Really?

Most self defense shootings occur in terminals, primarily bus or airport. The "Sig" in .357 Sig stands for SIGnificantly better terminal ballistics than 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Believe me or not, that's your choice, but if you don't want to take my word for it, get out your calculator and divide 357 by 45. You'll see that 357 has 7.93 times more stopping power than 45. It's just math, people. Which is why I carry .380 -- even more stopping power than 357. Math. Just do it.

[jd950]

You are about to enter another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind.

A journey into a wondrous land of imagination. Next stop, the Twilight Zone

[cornstalker]

Really?

Most self defense shootings occur in terminals, primarily bus or airport. The "Sig" in .357 Sig stands for SIGnificantly better terminal ballistics than 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Believe me or not, that's your choice, but if you don't want to take my word for it, get out your calculator and divide 357 by 45. You'll see that 357 has 7.93 times more stopping power than 45. It's just math, people. Which is why I carry .380 -- even more stopping power than 357. Math. Just do it.

That's Sig line material.

[BehindBlueI's]

Seems like we're now more into "general discussion" territory, so thread moved.

[wvincent]

Really?

Most self defense shootings occur in terminals, primarily bus or airport. The "Sig" in .357 Sig stands for SIGnificantly better terminal ballistics than 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Believe me or not, that's your choice, but if you don't want to take my word for it, get out your calculator and divide 357 by 45. You'll see that 357 has 7.93 times more stopping power than 45. It's just math, people. Which is why I carry .380 -- even more stopping power than 357. Math. Just do it.

Gold. Pure F*#king Gold.
ETA If that doesn’t get you one of those high paying moderator jobs, then nothing will.

[Stephanie B]

Really?

Most self defense shootings occur in terminals, primarily bus or airport. The "Sig" in .357 Sig stands for SIGnificantly better terminal ballistics than 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Believe me or not, that's your choice, but if you don't want to take my word for it, get out your calculator and divide 357 by 45. You'll see that 357 has 7.93 times more stopping power than 45. It's just math, people. Which is why I carry .380 -- even more stopping power than 357. Math. Just do it.

Are you freaking serious? Is this sarcasm?

[Crazy Dane]

Seems like we're now more into "general discussion" territory, so thread moved.


Ooo Does this mean we can circle back to eating jack rabbits?

[Joe in PNG]

Are you freaking serious? Is this sarcasm?

It can be hard to tell these days without a [sarc] tag.

[RJ]

Seems like we're now more into "general discussion" territory, so thread moved.


Are you freaking serious? Is this sarcasm?

53054

[Stephanie B]

53054
Based on his signature line, it’s quite probable that his entire post was sarcastic. Or, it could just be trolling. There’s no good way for me to tell, other than ask.

[Kanye Wyoming]

Based on his signature line, it’s quite probable that his entire post was sarcastic. Or, it could just be trolling. There’s no good way for me to tell, other than ask.
Or maybe you just don't understand basic math. I'll explain it more slowly this time.

357 . . . is . . . almost . . . 10 . . . times . . . as . . . much . . . as . . . 45.

Therefore . . . .357 Sig . . . is . . . . SIGnificantly . . . more . . . ballistic . . . in . . . an . . . airline . . . or . . . bus . . . terminal.





ETA: The field seemed kinda weak this month and I thought there was an opening to make a late run for April COTM. :p

[BehindBlueI's]

Ooo Does this mean we can circle back to eating jack rabbits?

Yup. Or Starlings. Or whatever.

[Stephanie B]

Or maybe you just don't understand basic math. I'll explain it more slowly this time.

357 . . . is . . . almost . . . 10 . . . times . . . as . . . much . . . as . . . 45.

Therefore . . . .357 Sig . . . is . . . . SIGnificantly . . . more . . . ballistic . . . in . . . an . . . airline . . . or . . . bus . . . terminal.

Ah. Trolling. Got it.

I’m out.

[Greg]

45 allows more germs and viruses into the body.

[Rex G]

If we're assuming bulk FMJ, the biggest differences I saw was with barriers. 9mm tended to fragment too early, especially through auto glass. .45 held together better and if it did shed it's jacket and start to break apart the pieces were bigger so they still penetrated further then the 9mm pieces. Both did weird things hitting car sheet metal at angles, sometimes penetrating, sometimes deflecting. Both could ride ribs or skulls at the right angles.

Yes, .45 ACP FMJ will do quite well when passing through vehicle bodies, if the entry angle is near perpendicular. I saw this effect several times, in vehicles as large as a Ford Econoline van, in which I saw that 45 ACP FMJ can penetrate a rear door, several seats, and enter the dash.

If I was required, by edict or other circumstance, to use only FMJ, I would carry .45 ACP; preferably flat-point FMJ, it it fed reliably. One reason I “grandfathered” several .45 ACP duty pistols, in 1997, when firearms policy changed, was in case some future administration decided to decree FMJ-only.

I am OK with a good controlled-expansion 9mm JHP, and as an aging retiree, appreciate my “orthopedic” Glock G17 and G19x pistols. I still do have several .45 ACP 1911 pistols, too, but shoot them less often, and comparatively fewer rounds per session.

[Redhat]

Yes, .45 ACP FMJ will do quite well when passing through vehicle bodies, if the entry angle is near perpendicular. I saw this effect several times, in vehicles as large as a Ford Econoline van, in which I saw that 45 ACP FMJ can penetrate a rear door, several seats, and enter the dash.

If I was required, by edict or other circumstance, to use only FMJ, I would carry .45 ACP; preferably flat-point FMJ, it it fed reliably. One reason I “grandfathered” several .45 ACP duty pistols, in 1997, when firearms policy changed, was in case some future administration decided to decree FMJ-only.

I am OK with a good controlled-expansion 9mm JHP, and as an aging retiree, appreciate my “orthopedic” Glock G17 and G19x pistols. I still do have several .45 ACP 1911 pistols, too, but shoot them less often, and comparatively fewer rounds per session.

You may have to take Bill Wilson's advice and go to 200 or 185 gr's in your .45's