Making do with Sub-par ARs

[Elwin]

I have two ARs that I bought when I definitely didn’t know what I didn’t know. One is a Ruger AR556 with Magpul furniture, an Arisaka light, a Holosun dot, and 3400 problem-free rounds through it. The other is a freefloated Stag upper on an 80% lower (yeah, I really didn’t know) with a Sig dot, Streamllight HL-X, and 1500 problem-free rounds through it. Both have Geissele G2S triggers, go figure. If I could snap my fingers and turn both of these into one Colt/SOLGW/BCM I would. But even aside from being unable to sell an 80% lower, I could never get the money for a decent new rifle out of these, at least not in the current market. And I definitely don’t have new rifle money otherwise – for now, I have to make the best of what I have. I’m currently using the Ruger as my HD long gun option, and it’s set up exactly as a KISS Colt would be for HD, except it’s not a Colt. I actually prefer it to the Stag ergonomically, so a used or new old stock 6920/6720 is high on my list of future options.

Question is – is it worthwhile to get some chamber gauges to check headspacing and, assuming it’s fine, swap the better staked, shrouded firing pin Stag BCG into the rifle I’m actually using to replace the barely “staked,” exposed firing pin BCG that Ruger uses? Or do I just leave everything as-is until I can buy the better rifle (possibly with an Aimpoint PRO purchase between now and then)? I guess the specific question is, if I have 3400 rounds on a sub-par BCG and it’s been fine, does that mean it will likely continue to be fine or that failure is just growing more likely?

Granted, I am more likely than not just overthinking things to make up for the fact that the correct solution is currently outside my reach.

I’m also open to any better ideas, even if it’s just “shoot your guns and shut up.”

P.S. First post but I’ve been lurking for a while, this forum is a huge part of how I learned what I didn’t know in the first place.

[awp_101]

Welcome!

Instead of looking to replace a complete rifle completely, consider picking up the upper and lower as separate assemblies.

For a while I was running a poverty pony lower on a PSA upper. Last year I picked up a used BCM 16” upper for under $400 (without the BCG) and sent the PSA upper to a new home. A couple of weeks ago I snagged a complete BCM lower so now I have an all BCM (except BCG) rifle for under $850. It just took searching (which is fun to me) and patience (which isn’t my strong suit). I’ll probably keep the Anderson lower for a range toy build but it wouldn’t be hard to sell it and offset the cost of the new lower.

I’d see if I could source a gently used, complete, quality upper to drop onto the Ruger lower and drive on until you find the lower you want at your price point.

[TGS]

subpar or not, are they not meeting an expectation/use you have, or do you just want a higher quality gun just because?

[ASH556]

In all likelihood if they have that many trouble-free rounds on them they're probably fine. At the same time, it depends on how you shoot. 1,000 rounds slow fire from the bench is not equal to 1,000 rounds over a 2-day carbine class. Guns do different things when they get hot or dirty.

I'm not saying this is what you should do, but if I woke up in your shoes tomorrow, here's what I'd do:

Sell both G2S triggers @ $100/ea = $200
Sell Ruger complete = $500
Sell Stag upper = $350
Sell Stag LPK + stock as a lower build kit = $50
Sell cheap dots = $200 (maybe more, I sold a Romeo 5 I had on a 15-22 for $125 in like 5 min on ARFCOM)
Sell one light = $100

That puts you at $1,400.

You can pick up a used PRO for $350 all day long.

$379 BCM Lower: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/ar-15-complete-lower-receiver-w-bcmgunfighter-stock-prod83804.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=BRAVO%2bCOMPAN Y

$852.90 BCM 16" mid length upper with 13" MCMR freefloat handguard, BCG, CH. (https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-standard-16-mid-length-upper-receiver-group-w-bcm-mcmr-13-handguard/)

If you don't mind buying used and you shop, you can get a quality upper for cheaper too.

[Elwin]

subpar or not, are they not meeting an expectation/use you have, or do you just want a higher quality gun just because?

Fair question. They work for what I use them for (one on hand for HD, range use, one class so far), but I'd say I don't necessarily trust them to keep working based on what I know now. Namely, that "an AR is an AR" isn't true. I'll admit a part of this is definitely that I would subjectively feel better owning a higher quality rifle.

Great suggestions on selling parts and buying a quality upper first. I'll look into both of those, and maybe a combination of the two.

[TCinVA]

If you've got 3,400 rounds through the gun I wouldn't worry too much about it. Should you be aiming to put 30,000 through it in training? Probably not...but if you can't afford to buy a better rifle that's probably not a realistic concern for you anyway.

Higher quality parts and better quality control in manufacture and assembly typically yields a product that works better out of the box and provides a longer service life. This is not to say that a Ruger AR will not work. It's more likely to have issues out of the box and likely won't endure the round count that a BCM does without breaking things in high volume shooting. But any given sample of Ruger AR can work just fine.

The problem most have is buying the "just as good as" gun without actually proving the equipment. They buy it because it's cheaper and then they don't shoot it, preferring to spend all their time on the internet flapping their gums about inflated round counts.

I've seen a fair number of Ruger ARs in the wild and all I've seen have worked. Yours certainly seems to be working...so don't be in a hurry to do anything with it.

[Rick R]

IMHO, AR15 rifles are a learning experience. Kind of like holsters, just more expensive. We all end up with a box o’ bad decisions. If you can sell off your bad decisions then you’re ahead, otherwise they aren’t eating anything stashed in the safe against future need.

If the Ruger has been GTG just keep chugging along with it. If the BCG bothers you, buy a quality replacement, check headspace and run it. Upgrade the upper and sighting system as funds allow.

DSG often has decent pricing on parts,

https://dsgarms.com/upper-receiver-parts-bcm-bolt-carrier-group-auto-mp

https://dsgarms.com/complete-uppers-bcm-urg-mid-16elwf-kmr-a-15

Then buy a Bravo Co lower or similar and you’ll be on your way to your next set of bad decisions/ educational experiences.

[Suvorov]

subpar or not, are they not meeting an expectation/use you have, or do you just want a higher quality gun just because?

A wise question.

I think that AR quality is largely overblown for most shooters. I am NOT saying that it doesn’t matter - a I’m just saying that too many people worry about the roll stamp on their rifle instead of actually learning to use it.

To the OP

The time to do your research on the rifle is before you bought it. Now that you have your rifles just suck it up and make lemonade out of your lemons. Take a good look at your rifles and look for any problem areas and fix them - then shoot them and use them as intended.

The fact of the matter is that most commercial or sporting grade ARs will serve there owners and their intended purpose (Including self defense) for their lifetime. Plus after a few thousand trouble free rounds you will have vetted the rifle that you can trust. I would make sure they are staked right but wouldn’t worry about other issues as they are most likely fine from the factory.

[TGS]

If you don't mind buying used and you shop, you can get a quality upper for cheaper too.


Fair question. They work for what I use them for (one on hand for HD, range use, one class so far), but I'd say I don't necessarily trust them to keep working based on what I know now. Namely, that "an AR is an AR" isn't true. I'll admit a part of this is definitely that I would subjectively feel better owning a higher quality rifle.

Great suggestions on selling parts and buying a quality upper first. I'll look into both of those, and maybe a combination of the two.

Yup yup.

Honestly I would just keep an eye on the for sale section here. I just got rid of two BCMs, priced the complete rifles at $1000.

Somebody is always willing to get rid of an upper they don't realize they no longer want. I'd be halfway surprised if someone doesn't PM you with an offer just from this thread alone.

Though, honestly, I don't think your Ruger is a low quality weapon. Replace the BCG with a quality BCG, either a standard USGI HPT/MPI on the low end or a SIONICS NP3 BCG setup on the high end, and keep an eye on your gas block. Get the castle nut staked if it isn't (or replace it with a PWS ratchet) and you really shouldn't have any major issues with your rifle outside that.

[HCM]

If you've got 3,400 rounds through the gun I wouldn't worry too much about it. Should you be aiming to put 30,000 through it in training? Probably not...but if you can't afford to buy a better rifle that's probably not a realistic concern for you anyway.

Higher quality parts and better quality control in manufacture and assembly typically yields a product that works better out of the box and provides a longer service life. This is not to say that a Ruger AR will not work. It's more likely to have issues out of the box and likely won't endure the round count that a BCM does without breaking things in high volume shooting. But any given sample of Ruger AR can work just fine.

The problem most have is buying the "just as good as" gun without actually proving the equipment. They buy it because it's cheaper and then they don't shoot it, preferring to spend all their time on the internet flapping their gums about inflated round counts.

I've seen a fair number of Ruger ARs in the wild and all I've seen have worked. Yours certainly seems to be working...so don't be in a hurry to do anything with it.

The issue with cheap ARs like Ruger and PSA isn’t that they are all horrible it’s that it’s like the proverbial box of chocolates- you may get one that is properly assembled and has no defective parts or you might not.

Just rocking on and replacing parts as needed if you are 3400 rounds in is not wrong but with the caveat that that will not be everyone’s experience with Ruger ARs.

[Clusterfrack]

Man, that's P-F for you. I spent the morning at the range, and returned to this excellent question. But everyone already knocked it out of the park. I've actually seen more problems with high-dollar ARs that are trying to make the platform do something special than I have with consumer-grade guns like yours. I agree that a quality BCG, and an inspection of a few key areas is probably good enough. Most parts fail either near the beginning or end of their service life. Your guns are in the early middle of the MTBF curve, so that's good.

[Elwin]

Cool, I appreciate all the responses, and the range of options based on what I'm willing/able to spend and/or sell. There's plenty of great advice out there regarding what to buy and what not to, but not as much that I've found for what to do in the time between an uninformed choice and having the money to completely do it over.

Also, the castle nuts are staked. I'm no armorer, but that at least was an easy fix I could pull off on my own.

[ASH556]

Cool, I appreciate all the responses, and the range of options based on what I'm willing/able to spend and/or sell. There's plenty of great advice out there regarding what to buy and what not to, but not as much that I've found for what to do in the time between an uninformed choice and having the money to completely do it over.

Also, the castle nuts are staked. I'm no armorer, but that at least was an easy fix I could pull off on my own.

The best thing you can do in the meantime is use good mags and quality ammo, but I'll bet you're already doing that. Do some dry work at home. Work bolt lock and tac reloads with dummy rounds. Work on ready-up. Positions (standing, kneeling, sitting, prone).

[HCountyGuy]

I have nothing to add to this thread other than to echo admiration for the responses given to the OP. What I mean is that nobody’s bagging on him for possessing and acknowledging that his equipment isn’t up there with DD, BCM and other high quality brands. Instead the responses are that if his stuff is working for his use, let it ride with good maintenance but also providing options on acquiring better gear.

Damn I love this place...

[Darth_Uno]

I build and remodel homes. And I always tell my customers, you'll be much happier doing everything at one time. Not only is it more expensive to piecemeal the project, but you still end up with a room/project that you don't really love because it's not entirely finished or how you envisioned it.

Given that they've made it this far, you're likely good to go for quite a while longer. But if you still just don't really want them after all, don't try to "fix" them. You'll spend hundreds of dollars and still have a gun you don't love. Sell everything and buy/build a better one, or just shoot the piss out of them as-is.

[rob_s]

Wow, almost 13 years ago...

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7376-quot-Oh-No!-I-bought-a-BM-RRA-Stag-before-I-knew-better!-quot

[Joe in PNG]

I build and remodel homes. And I always tell my customers, you'll be much happier doing everything at one time. Not only is it more expensive to piecemeal the project, but you still end up with a room/project that you don't really love because it's not entirely finished or how you envisioned it.

Given that they've made it this far, you're likely good to go for quite a while longer. But if you still just don't really want them after all, don't try to "fix" them. You'll spend hundreds of dollars and still have a gun you don't love. Sell everything and buy/build a better one, or just shoot the piss out of them as-is.

Auto repair is similar- putting $2000 worth of parts into a $1000 car means you still have a $1000 car. That may still need more $$$.



HCountyGuy
I have nothing to add to this thread other than to echo admiration for the responses given to the OP. What I mean is that nobody’s bagging on him for possessing and acknowledging that his equipment isn’t up there with DD, BCM and other high quality brands. Instead the responses are that if his stuff is working for his use, let it ride with good maintenance but also providing options on acquiring better gear. Damn I love this place...

QFT. Better a cheap gun that gets shot a lot over a safe queen that only gets bragged about. Or a cheap gun that gets treated like a safe queen but bragged about as if it was shot a lot.

[Suvorov]

Also, the castle nuts are staked. I'm no armorer, but that at least was an easy fix I could pull off on my own.

Most of the stuff that is needed are things you can do yourself. I have even staked gas keys - wasn't pretty but has worked so far. The only thing I would do if you decide to keep them is be more aggressive on your maintenance schedule. Not a full detail cleaning but a wipe down and simple inspection so that if things are working loose you can correct them before they cause a failure.

I serve as an RSO at a range in the Bay Area where there are a lot of highly paid tech guys who show up with the best ARs and optics money can buy. They can recite RobS's "CHART" by heart. They know Jack Shit about how to use them and it is painfully obvious when you see them shooting their NightForce scoped BMC with free floated handgaurd while resting their barrel on a sand bag. The very fact that you have sought training puts you heads and shoulders above these guys even if you had the lowest of lows in the AR world (which in my opinion you don't).

That said - I can appreciate the desire to own something with more "pedigree."

[Elwin]

I have nothing to add to this thread other than to echo admiration for the responses given to the OP. What I mean is that nobody’s bagging on him for possessing and acknowledging that his equipment isn’t up there with DD, BCM and other high quality brands. Instead the responses are that if his stuff is working for his use, let it ride with good maintenance but also providing options on acquiring better gear.

Damn I love this place...

That is exactly why I'm here and not somewhere else.

Everything said here makes sense. I think I may look at just fixing the Ruger's staking and otherwise leave everything as-is for now, and then consider offloading the Stag upper and other parts for a price that gets me into a bargain on an upper I want. Down the line I'll eventually have the funds for a better lower, etc. It's not a complete lack of funds for rifles, it's just that it's only a bit here and there if I'm to avoid cutting into my pistol training and ammo, which are a much higher priority. Good options for getting the best out of everything in the meantime is exactly what I needed.

[Shoresy]

I have nothing to add to this thread other than to echo admiration for the responses given to the OP. What I mean is that nobody’s bagging on him for possessing and acknowledging that his equipment isn’t up there with DD, BCM and other high quality brands. Instead the responses are that if his stuff is working for his use, let it ride with good maintenance but also providing options on acquiring better gear.

Damn I love this place...

At the risk of this turning into an outright love fest, I'll give a significant level of credit to the OP for NOT getting all high-BP REEEEEE when the answer didn't come back as expected. Another reason I prefer this place over some more specific forums.

[rob_s]

At the risk of this turning into an outright love fest, I'll give a significant level of credit to the OP for NOT getting all high-BP REEEEEE when the answer didn't come back as expected. Another reason I prefer this place over some more specific forums.

It was pretty amusing to me to read through the thread on the other forum that I linked to. It seems to have gone on for something like 4 year! The first few pages there were one or two in particular super-whiny folks, and then later on even a "Delta Sierra" that I'm pretty sure was actually our own "Alpha Sierra" (RIP?). I had no idea his butthurt went back that far.

As for the OP, make some minor tweaks if you like. personally I'd shoot the shit out of the gun, ammo/time/money/covid allowing and fix what breaks. Keep your pistol in your nightstand in the meantime (assuming it's a Glock ;) )

[Kram]

Wow, almost 13 years ago...

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7376-quot-Oh-No!-I-bought-a-BM-RRA-Stag-before-I-knew-better!-quot

I am still sending that article along with "Go shoot the gun" to guys. With the amount of AR manufactures and crap available those articles are more useful then ever.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?28658-GO-SHOOT-THE-GUN!

[Wake27]

I have a beater PSA upper thay was $200 that I bought after I had enough serious ARs that I was willing to gamble. It’s got over 1,100 of both brass and steel without an issue and groups surprisingly well at 50m. With the castle nut staked, I’m content to have quality spare BCG parts (has rings, can pin, bolt, and firing pin) and that’s it.

I agree with the others that with the round count you have on it, I wouldn’t worry too much until you can dump the whole thing, if you choose to do so. Just keep a spare BCG or everything minus the carrier for insurance and you’ll probably be solid for a while.

That said, have you grouped it at 100m?


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[Elwin]

I have a beater PSA upper thay was $200 that I bought after I had enough serious ARs that I was willing to gamble. It’s got over 1,100 of both brass and steel without an issue and groups surprisingly well at 50m. With the castle nut staked, I’m content to have quality spare BCG parts (has rings, can pin, bolt, and firing pin) and that’s it.

I agree with the others that with the round count you have on it, I wouldn’t worry too much until you can dump the whole thing, if you choose to do so. Just keep a spare BCG or everything minus the carrier for insurance and you’ll probably be solid for a while.

That said, have you grouped it at 100m?


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Accuracy is one place where I have no complaints. It printed under 1.5" at 100yd (with an accuracy nut friend's meticulous handloads). Ruger can definitely make an accurate rifle, even if they can't stake anything.

[HCM]

Timely.

52892

[LittleLebowski]

I agree with the common sentiment, your rifles are fine. Check the gas key staking (easily remedied for $6.49 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ZJYV9W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)), get ona schedule for replacing springs, check your extractor spring setup (again, cheaply fixed (https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=Ar-15+extractor+spring&ksubmit=y)), and enjoy the rifles. If you feel compelled to upgrade them, consider an adjustable gas block, heavier buffer, and...a suppressor or two :cool:

[Nephrology]

That is exactly why I'm here and not somewhere else.

Everything said here makes sense. I think I may look at just fixing the Ruger's staking and otherwise leave everything as-is for now, and then consider offloading the Stag upper and other parts for a price that gets me into a bargain on an upper I want. Down the line I'll eventually have the funds for a better lower, etc. It's not a complete lack of funds for rifles, it's just that it's only a bit here and there if I'm to avoid cutting into my pistol training and ammo, which are a much higher priority. Good options for getting the best out of everything in the meantime is exactly what I needed.


To be honest, a lower is a lower is a lower. If you've staked the castle nut, the trigger works and mags drop free, I don't see any real reason to "upgrade" at all. All the important functional parts - basically the trigger, buffer and buffer spring - can be replaced with ease. I wouldn't bother buying a newer, "better" lower unless you really want a different rollmark that badly.

Re: the uppers, at the roundcounts that you have through them they're also probably good to go. Can't imagine they were poorly assembled if they made it that far. The most likely failure point on your upper (not including optics/accessories) would be the BCG and related components. Even in the coronapocalpyse you can still get a an assembled Toolcraft BCG for ~$100 (https://www.primaryarms.com/toolcraft-556-nato-complete-m16-bolt-carrier-group-nitride) - way cheaper than horse trading into a new gun. So long as they both are accurate enough for you, I don't think I'd change a thing myself.

I also have a cheap, shitty PSA 11.5" upper. It groups quite acceptably at 50 and 100yd and feeds/fires/extracts steel and brass case ammo just fine. Plan to shoot it til the barrel dies, then send it to ADCO for a replacement.

[Gray Ghost]

I agree with others who say that given the round count, the guns you have are likely to keep on running for a while. That said, if you want to do something, below are my thoughts.

I had not previously heard that Ruger doesn't stake the gas keys on their bolt carriers. I have never had a failure related to an AR gas key coming loose, but conventional wisdom is that this is a potential point of failure. I'd buy a good BCG for the Ruger. If the castle nut isn't staked, that is important, but easily remedied. I would do those two things and maybe focus on the Ruger as your primary gun for now.

I am not keen on the 80% DIY lower for any serious use. I'd strip the receiver extension, buffer, stock, and trigger group from that and put those parts in another lower. Then maybe sell your Stag upper and start saving for a factory upper from BCM or DD. I'll point out that DD Mk18 uppers are on sale at Brownells right now for a very attractive price.

Another approach is to sell the Ruger and the Stag upper, then use the resulting funds to buy one rifle. The Colt 6920 and 6721 are a bargain for what you get. When the current craziness ebbs, you should be able to buy either for under $1000. One additional thought along that line would be a Colt Expanse. It is basically an M4 marked 16" Colt with a crappy MIM trigger group. I bought one a few years ago to use as the base for a Mk12 SPR build. I replaced the trigger group with a Geissele anyway. Given that you have a nice trigger, in your 80% lower that you could use, you could maybe make a value play. There are several Expanse rifles NIB on GB for $1K.

[Elwin]

I am not keen on the 80% DIY lower for any serious use.

This is where I'm at when it comes to getting into another lower, eventually. Whether that means buying an assembled one or stripping parts from the 80% I'll figure out when I get there. It's not a huge priority, but in a two-person household and with multiple family members in the area, a second GTG defensive rifle is at least a "nice to have." But like I said before, first things first means having one that I'm happy with.

The Ruger BCGs are technically "staked," but not in an effective way. My pessimistic assumption is that its sole purpose is allowing them to mention staking on the specs list.

More good advice all. Unsurprisingly there's more than one valid approach. If I can sell the Stag upper and parts for enough to get into a Colt upper, that'll be cool (and at least part the motivation here certainly is "because I want one" and actually like the ergonomics of carbine FSB uppers). If not and in the meantime, I know a few ways to keep the Ruger up to the task with minimal expense.

[TGS]

You can get a BCM 14.5" or 16" FSB upper for $540 (sans BCG and CH).

Given that, I'd have a hard time buying a Colt over the BCM offering. One company is just a patent investment firm that waxes and wanes and simply follows the money trail (as does their quality)....the other is a company dedicated to building a quality AR-15 because they want to build quality AR15s, and their owner is personally invested in the concept of the 2nd Amendment.

[Clusterfrack]

You can get a BCM 14.5" or 16" FSB upper for $540 (sans BCG and CH).

Given that, I'd have a hard time buying a Colt over the BCM offering. One company is just a patent investment firm that waxes and wanes and simply follows the money trail (as does their quality)....the other is a company dedicated to building a quality AR-15 because they want to build quality AR15s, and their owner is personally invested in the concept of the 2nd Amendment.

I couldn't agree more. As well, the range of features available in BCM guns is a significant advantage. Colt offers nothing that justifies settling for an upper that lacks what you want.

[Nephrology]

I am not keen on the 80% DIY lower for any serious use.

Why not? Only argument I can think of would be hand-wavy legal reasons re: self defense with an 80% "gun." Presumably if he's put 1100 rounds through it without issue, the holes were probably drilled OK. Unless the finish is flaky, I'm not sure what a new lower would be doing for him.

I'd never buy an 80% lower, to be sure, but as long as he has it I'm not seeing the harm in sticking with it.

[Gray Ghost]

Why not? Only argument I can think of would be hand-wavy legal reasons re: self defense with an 80% "gun." Presumably if he's put 1100 rounds through it without issue, the holes were probably drilled OK. Unless the finish is flaky, I'm not sure what a new lower would be doing for him.

I'd never buy an 80% lower, to be sure, but as long as he has it I'm not seeing the harm in sticking with it.

I see two reasons:

1) I don't want the optics of shooting a BG with a "homemade" gun. This is admittedly subjective and personal.

2) I will never be convinced that it is as reliable as a factory gun.

Both just my opinion.

[Nephrology]

I see two reasons:

1) I don't want the optics of shooting a BG with a "homemade" gun. This is admittedly subjective and personal.

2) I will never be convinced that it is as reliable as a factory gun.

Both just my opinion.

That's understandable. I'd still be fine using it as a hobby/range gun lower. IMO, if he already doesn't trust the whole rifle, I'd keep the whole thing as is and buy a BCM or equivalent quality gun to use for protection, etc, and relegate the 80% AR to range beater status.

Given that there are no concrete functional issues with either rifle, it seems like the biggest problem is trust in the gun, which is totally legit. If you're going to keep a weapon around for self-defense, having confidence that the gun will work is as important as anything else. That threshold is personal and changes over time. Besides, there is never a BAD reason to buy another AR....right?

[OlongJohnson]

My understanding is that if you built the 80 percent for your own use, and have indeed used it for several years, you can stamp or engrave it (meeting legal requirements for engraving depth) and sell it without issue, just like any other firearm you use and then sell later. You just can't be in the business of buying and selling, or manufacturing for sale without a license, and you can't sell a non-serialized firearm. Of course, IANAL. And I probably wouldn't want the potential liability of selling someone else a firearm that I'd machined, if I wasn't set up in that business with insurance, etc.

If you like the parts you put in your 80 percent, it runs well, and the only real problem with it is it's an 80 percent, you might just pick up a quality lower and swap everything over. I like these:

http://www.jsesurplus.com/JSEForgedAR15Lower-MFGBYMEGAARMS.aspx

I have one of the corresponding uppers inbound, FWIW.

[Nephrology]

If you like the parts you put in your 80 percent, it runs well, and the only real problem with it is it's an 80 percent, you might just pick up a quality lower and swap everything over. I like these:

http://www.jsesurplus.com/JSEForgedAR15Lower-MFGBYMEGAARMS.aspx

I have one of the corresponding uppers inbound, FWIW.

Re: lowers, I swear by the Aero M4E1s (https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-stripped-lower-receiver-anodized-black), if only because : 1. integral trigger guard and 2. threaded bolt catch pin. These two features save a ton of time when you're putting them together. Otherwise as far as I'm concerned they're all equivalent as long as they're correctly machined and finished.

[RevolverRob]

Let's back up - 'Mission Drives the Gear Train' -

What are your goals/needs with a given AR15?

Home defense? Patrol? Hunting?

___

Let's say Home Defense:

You've solved problem 1 with weapons you're using you have one and a spare.

The Ruger may not be the highest quality gun out there, but after 3400 rounds, I wouldn't be worried about it. Inspect it, stake the gas key, stake the castle nut, drive on. This will be your primary.

The 80% gun after 1100 rounds without concerns, I'd inspect it, and drive on, it's likely fine. This is your spare.

Set them up identically with the same optics, lights, and furniture.

Continue working with each gun on a regular training/dryfire schedule. Keeping your roughly 3:1 shooting ratio between primary and spare. Save up for a BCM.

When you've got the cash, get your BCM - it's now primary (assuming it passes through your initial reliability testing), Ruger secondary, 80% becomes tertiary/experimental gun. You now have a gun you don't mind fidgeting with, without compromising your main weapons as you get the need to fidget. Or the 80% gun becomes a dedicated dryfire gun or a dedicated hunting gun, maybe you decide to build a long range gun or a 6.5G or 6.8SPC for funsies. Whatever, it's the gun you can futz with, because you aren't compromising your main defensive weapon(s).

___

With the BCM and Ruger combo you now have all the things you need to take a high volume carbine course without concern. Though, frankly, you'd probably be fine with the Ruger + 80%'er.
___

I see no reason to try to trade one gun away into a 'higher quality' gun right now. If you're dealing with home defense, your gun needs to get through 30-rounds of ammo...once. The Ruger has already shown it can do that at least 300 times...With proper inspection and maintenance, I see no reason to believe it won't make it through another 30-rounds right? Right.

The more you monkey with trying to make something into something it isn't. The higher the chances are you'll actually muck it up.

Don't overthink this.

[Wonder9]

You want to replace two vetted ARs because of teh interwebz and BCM Instagram circlejerks?

[ReverendMeat]

. I have never had a failure related to an AR gas key coming loose, but conventional wisdom is that this is a potential point of failure. I'd buy a good BCG for the Ruger.

I have. That was my introduction to Olympic Arms. I was like "lol buddy your gun sucks" then I went out and showed him up by buying a dpms which the guy at the shop told me was good

[ECVMatt]

Great advice from the PF forum as always.

On the subject of sub-par AR's, one of my favorite is an old Smith and Wesson Sport. The slick sided model after the 5r rifling change. I bought it very cheap when there was a surplus of these going around. I think I paid about $450 bucks. I use it for a coyote calling rifle and it has been great. I have about 1K rounds through it with zero problems. I just took it out of the safe yesterday and cleaned it up, or boredom cleaned it. I can't wait to get back out and do some hunting when things get back to normal.

Like the others have said, it looks like the Ruger is serving you well, so I would just stick with it.

[Nephrology]

Going to query this thread as it seems appropriate.

I have two factory assembled Aero Precision uppers that have so far worked fine, though both have relatively low roundcounts (350 on my 11.5", 200 on my 16"). Subjectively, they seem pretty well built; fit and finish are quite nice and I have been pleased with their accuracy so far.

That said, after much obsessive M4C querying, I am wondering about a couple aspects of their assembly and whether or not I should be concerned. Specifically:

1. Some folks have said that their complete uppers sometimes don't have proper barrel nut torque. I have yet to pull the handguard off it and check, and I'm not even sure if I have the right wrench for their barrel nut; I hazily remember maybe getting one with the upper, but it has been a while and may have been lost in the move. Is this something that would have caused a problem by now?

2. The other area I wonder about is the low profile gas blocks. I've read online that Aero doesn't dimple their barrels for their low pro gas blocks, but I can't confirm that personally. Likewise, is this something that would have presented as a problem right now? Is it a problem to begin with?

3. On a related note, reading too much M4C has put the idea in my head that I should get all my low pro gas blocks pinned anyway so as to avoid being kilt in the streetz. Seems like this might address problems #1 and #2 as presumably whatever smithing service I use would ensure barrel nut is torqued to spec. Worthwhile or waste of cash?

Thoughts?

[RevolverRob]

Going to query this thread as it seems appropriate.

I have two factory assembled Aero Precision uppers that have so far worked fine, though both have relatively low roundcounts (350 on my 11.5", 200 on my 16"). Subjectively, they seem pretty well built; fit and finish are quite nice and I have been pleased with their accuracy so far.

That said, after much obsessive M4C querying, I am wondering about a couple aspects of their assembly and whether or not I should be concerned. Specifically:

1. Some folks have said that their complete uppers sometimes don't have proper barrel nut torque. I have yet to pull the handguard off it and check, and I'm not even sure if I have the right wrench for their barrel nut; I hazily remember maybe getting one with the upper, but it has been a while and may have been lost in the move. Is this something that would have caused a problem by now?

2. The other area I wonder about is the low profile gas blocks. I've read online that Aero doesn't dimple their barrels for their low pro gas blocks, but I can't confirm that personally. Likewise, is this something that would have presented as a problem right now?

3. On a related note, reading too much M4C has put the idea in my head that I should get all my low pro gas blocks pinned anyway so as to avoid being kilt in the streetz. Seems like this might address problems #1 and #2 as presumably whatever smithing service I use would ensure barrel nut is torqued to spec.

1) DIY - Probably good to have the tools on hand since you have multiple ARs. I would assume if the torque is wrong you'll eventually get wandering POI

2) No clue

3) Out of curiosity - why do they recommend pinning them?


Thoughts?

Read less M4C? ;)

[Nephrology]

Read less M4C? ;)

Yes this is probably the most appropriate take-home lesson, but I am slowly running out of new internet thanks to quarantine. It's bringing me to desperate places.

[Borderland]

To be honest, a lower is a lower is a lower. If you've staked the castle nut, the trigger works and mags drop free, I don't see any real reason to "upgrade" at all. All the important functional parts - basically the trigger, buffer and buffer spring - can be replaced with ease. I wouldn't bother buying a newer, "better" lower unless you really want a different rollmark that badly.

Re: the uppers, at the roundcounts that you have through them they're also probably good to go. Can't imagine they were poorly assembled if they made it that far. The most likely failure point on your upper (not including optics/accessories) would be the BCG and related components. Even in the coronapocalpyse you can still get a an assembled Toolcraft BCG for ~$100 (https://www.primaryarms.com/toolcraft-556-nato-complete-m16-bolt-carrier-group-nitride) - way cheaper than horse trading into a new gun. So long as they both are accurate enough for you, I don't think I'd change a thing myself.

I also have a cheap, shitty PSA 11.5" upper. It groups quite acceptably at 50 and 100yd and feeds/fires/extracts steel and brass case ammo just fine. Plan to shoot it til the barrel dies, then send it to ADCO for a replacement.

I'll go with this.^

I won't proffer an opinion about AR's but carbines are carbines. I went down the M1 carbine road about 10 years ago only to find that barrels are very important. I had a dog and I contemplated replacing the barrel. That was $250 for a $600 rifle and the value of the rifle would never increase, just the MOA. I sold that one and made sure that the next one had a descent barrel. If they don't run you can rebuild everything else yourself for $100 and they will run flawlessly. I hear a lot about bolt failure (BCG) on AR's and know for a fact it happens on M1 carbines. I've rebuilt several bolts.

So my point is, if you have a descent barrel and the carbine runs, you've got 95% of what the guy who owns a DD has except bragging rights. If you know a bit about how to replace parts and shoot it, you may even have an advantage.

I don't own an AR but I've shot enough to know this. If I were going to purchase a new one I would buy low end like a S&W Sport II or Ruger AR 556 and save money for an after market trigger and really good glass. I shoot with a guy who has both low end and high end AR's and I've shot all of them.

[RevolverRob]

I don't own an AR but I've shot enough to know this. If I were going to purchase a new one I would buy low end like a S&W Sport II or Ruger AR 556 and save money for an after market trigger and really good glass.

You need an AR.

Not because you actually need one. But because the world doesn't want you, specifically you Borderland, to have one. So you need one.

The S&W Sport II is a pretty good choice overall. Particularly for something that's probably not going to get used much. At $650 - you can easily throw in a Geissele trigger, and put a Trijicon MRO on top and have a very good defensive carbine you can use out to 300m no problem for <1200 bucks.

[Borderland]

You need an AR.

Not because you actually need one. But because the world doesn't want you, specifically you Borderland, to have one. So you need one.

The S&W Sport II is a pretty good choice overall. Particularly for something that's probably not going to get used much. At $650 - you can easily throw in a Geissele trigger, and put a Trijicon MRO on top and have a very good defensive carbine you can use out to 300m no problem for <1200 bucks.

I've looked into it. My SD carbine is a Mini-14. Safes full right now so if I could move some stuff it might happen. Lots of bolt rifles in there right now.

[ASH556]

I'll go with this.^

I won't proffer an opinion about AR's but carbines are carbines. I went down the M1 carbine road about 10 years ago only to find that barrels are very important. I had a dog and I contemplated replacing the barrel. That was $250 for a $600 rifle and the value of the rifle would never increase, just the MOA. I sold that one and made sure that the next one had a descent barrel. If they don't run you can rebuild everything else yourself for $100 and they will run flawlessly. I hear a lot about bolt failure (BCG) on AR's and know for a fact it happens on M1 carbines. I've rebuilt several bolts.

So my point is, if you have a descent barrel and the carbine runs, you've got 95% of what the guy who owns a DD has except bragging rights. If you know a bit about how to replace parts and shoot it, you may even have an advantage.

I don't own an AR but I've shot enough to know this. If I were going to purchase a new one I would buy low end like a S&W Sport II or Ruger AR 556 and save money for an after market trigger and really good glass. I shoot with a guy who has both low end and high end AR's and I've shot all of them.

As someone who knows a little bit about AR's this is on the ragged edge between truth and fuddery. Guns "work just fine" until they don't. Things like dimensional specs, torque specs, material specs, assembly procedures and staking exist for a reason. If you baby your rifle from the gunsafe to the bench and back, sure you can have "thousands of trouble-free rounds" through a low-end gun. But, if it is a fighting/lifesaving weapon/tool, it had better be right. I've fixed enough public and LEO (personally-owned and department-owned) guns to feel confident in making the above statement. Do with it what you will.

**This is not directed specifically at "Borderland" but rather at the concepts he's discussing and anyone who thinks "parts is parts."

[HCM]

Going to query this thread as it seems appropriate.

I have two factory assembled Aero Precision uppers that have so far worked fine, though both have relatively low roundcounts (350 on my 11.5", 200 on my 16"). Subjectively, they seem pretty well built; fit and finish are quite nice and I have been pleased with their accuracy so far.

That said, after much obsessive M4C querying, I am wondering about a couple aspects of their assembly and whether or not I should be concerned. Specifically:

1. Some folks have said that their complete uppers sometimes don't have proper barrel nut torque. I have yet to pull the handguard off it and check, and I'm not even sure if I have the right wrench for their barrel nut; I hazily remember maybe getting one with the upper, but it has been a while and may have been lost in the move. Is this something that would have caused a problem by now?

2. The other area I wonder about is the low profile gas blocks. I've read online that Aero doesn't dimple their barrels for their low pro gas blocks, but I can't confirm that personally. Likewise, is this something that would have presented as a problem right now? Is it a problem to begin with?

3. On a related note, reading too much M4C has put the idea in my head that I should get all my low pro gas blocks pinned anyway so as to avoid being kilt in the streetz. Seems like this might address problems #1 and #2 as presumably whatever smithing service I use would ensure barrel nut is torqued to spec. Worthwhile or waste of cash?

Thoughts?

The good news is the parts Aero make themselves like receivers and ballistic advantage barrels are good. The bad news is Aero has a well deserved reputation for assembly issues and using cheap crappy small parts from outside suppliers.

At those round counts you wouldn’t yet see an issue but both issues should be addressed. You could get the necessary tool or you could pay a local gunsmith to disassemble and check for /correct those issues. SOLGW is local to me and repairs /re-assembles other brands all the time. Both issues should be cheap and easy to fix.

There was an assembly line /factory floor video posted by Windham weaponry a couple years ago (since pulled) that showed two workers assembling uppers, one was using a torque wrench and one was not. The video was pulled after WW was roasted for it online but WW is the former Bushmaster and they were notorious for having loose barrel nuts. In fact during Lucky Gunner’s big test of steel case vs brass case wear rates two of the four pre Remington Bushmaster test guns developed early accuracy issues which were identified as being loose barrel nuts. When checked, they were both only 10 ft/lbs vs the 30 to 80 FT/lbs they should be. Some manufacturers use thread lockers on barrel nuts and castle nuts in lieu of torque values and staking which is just bullshit.

A properly installed set screw gas block is fine for most uses BUT proper installation starts with dimpling the barrel for the set screw. Without the dimple it is just a matter of time /round count before it fails.

Pinning a gas block is the belt and suspenders approach for most uses but it is nice insurance for things like duty guns.

[Casual Friday]

As someone who knows a little bit about AR's this is on the ragged edge between truth and fuddery. Guns "work just fine" until they don't. Things like dimensional specs, torque specs, material specs, assembly procedures and staking exist for a reason. If you baby your rifle from the gunsafe to the bench and back, sure you can have "thousands of trouble-free rounds" through a low-end gun. But, if it is a fighting/lifesaving weapon/tool, it had better be right. I've fixed enough public and LEO (personally-owned and department-owned) guns to feel confident in making the above statement. Do with it what you will.

**This is not directed specifically at "Borderland" but rather at the concepts he's discussing and anyone who thinks "parts is parts."

Preach.

[Nephrology]

The good news is the parts Aero make themselves like receivers and ballistic advantage barrels are good. The bad news is Aero has a well deserved reputation for assembly issues and using cheap crappy small parts from outside suppliers.

At those round counts you wouldn’t yet see an issue but both issues should be addressed. You could get the necessary tool or you could pay a local gunsmith to disassemble and check for /correct those issues. SOLGW is local to me and repairs /re-assembles other brands all the time. Both issues should be cheap and easy to fix.

There was an assembly line /factory floor video posted by Windham weaponry a couple years ago (since pulled) that showed two workers assembling uppers, one was using a torque wrench and one was not. The video was pulled after WW was roasted for it online but WW is the former Bushmaster and they were notorious for having loose barrel nuts. In fact during Lucky Gunner’s big test of steel case vs brass case wear rates two of the four pre Remington Bushmaster test guns developed early accuracy issues which were identified as being loose barrel nuts. When checked, they were both only 10 ft/lbs vs the 30 to 80 FT/lbs they should be. Some manufacturers use thread lockers on barrel nuts and castle nuts in lieu of torque values and staking which is just bullshit.

A properly installed set screw gas block is fine for most uses BUT proper installation starts with dimpling the barrel for the set screw. Without the dimple it is just a matter of time /round count before it fails.

Pinning a gas block is the belt and suspenders approach for most uses but it is nice insurance for things like duty guns.

Good to know. How do you feel about option #3? I am not going to be doing a lot of shooting in the immediate future and will need to wrangle a good shipping box somehow, but seems like sending them off to get the gas blocks pinned is the inexpensive fix here.

[HCM]

As someone who knows a little bit about AR's this is on the ragged edge between truth and fuddery. Guns "work just fine" until they don't. Things like dimensional specs, torque specs, material specs, assembly procedures and staking exist for a reason. If you baby your rifle from the gunsafe to the bench and back, sure you can have "thousands of trouble-free rounds" through a low-end gun. But, if it is a fighting/lifesaving weapon/tool, it had better be right. I've fixed enough public and LEO (personally-owned and department-owned) guns to feel confident in making the above statement. Do with it what you will.

**This is not directed specifically at "Borderland" but rather at the concepts he's discussing and anyone who thinks "parts is parts."

I liked this then unliked it so I could like it again.

1) Parts are not created equal
2) proper assembly (Torque etc,) matters. ARs are easier than many other guns but they are not “Legos”
3) firing schedule is a thing. 1,000 rounds over 10 range trips and 1,000 rounds in 2 days of training are not equivalent.

[Casual Friday]

Yes this is probably the most appropriate take-home lesson, but I am slowly running out of new internet thanks to quarantine. It's bringing me to desperate places.

M4C still has the most, best information regarding the M4/AR15 series of rifles in one place on the internet, no reason to stop reading there. I go through and look at old threads there quite often.

The issues that you've read about Aero are unfortunately true, and why I only buy their receivers and nothing assembled by them, even though they're local and I'd like to support them more. Poor assembly procedures is why I will no longer buy anything from PSA. It's not that those problems are hard to fix, but you shouldn't have to.

They (Aero) do not dimple their barrels for the gasblock set screw, you can buy a jig from SLR Rifleworks and dimple it yourself. I don't think pinning the gas block is necessary if it's under a handguard and not exposed to being hit and knocked around, but I do feel that dimpling is necessary.

If you have the correct barrel nut wrench or plan on getting one, it's not a bad idea to verify the torque, and it will also give you the opportunity to remove the barrel and check to see if they used any Aeroshell on the threads and add some if they didn't, another thing Aero seems to skimp on. I still think Aero is the best of the budget companies, and if they were to tighten up their assembly procedures and a little more QC they could be right up there with some of the other brands that cost a little more and have a better track record.

[HCM]

Good to know. How do you feel about option #3? I am not going to be doing a lot of shooting in the immediate future and will need to wrangle a good shipping box somehow, but seems like sending them off to get the gas blocks pinned is the inexpensive fix here.

If you don’t have a good local shop, and are going to the trouble of shipping an upper you might as well. There is no downside unless you want to constantly fiddle around with tearing down and rebuilding your guns.

I’m looking to pick up a SOLGW 13.7” upper and will request the GB be pinned.

This is one of those things that doesn’t seem like an issue shooting 1500 rounds over 10 range trips vs 1500 rounds in two days of training. Firing schedule is a thing.

[Nephrology]

M4C still has the most, best information regarding the M4/AR15 series of rifles in one place on the internet, no reason to stop reading there. I go through and look at old threads there quite often.


Yeah, it's definitely the best AR-specific forum I have found. I am just relatively new to the AR world so don't have a good perspective on how to evaluate certain complaints. For example, I have ton of time behind 9mm glocks, so despite all the gnashing of teeth here about BTF - which I've definitely experienced, and sucked- I knew that at least in my guns it wasn't a serious problem. Don't have that degree of insight into ARs, so it's hard to discriminate with the same granularity.




The issues that you've read about Aero are unfortunately true, and why I only buy their receivers and nothing assembled by them, even though they're local and I'd like to support them more. Poor assembly procedures is why I will no longer buy anything from PSA. It's not that those problems are hard to fix, but you shouldn't have to.

They (Aero) do not dimple their barrels for the gasblock set screw, you can buy a jig from SLR Rifleworks and dimple it yourself. I don't think pinning the gas block is necessary if it's under a handguard and not exposed to being hit and knocked around, but I do feel that dimpling is necessary.

If you have the correct barrel nut wrench or plan on getting one, it's not a bad idea to verify the torque, and it will also give you the opportunity to remove the barrel and check to see if they used any Aeroshell on the threads and add some if they didn't, another thing Aero seems to skimp on. I still think Aero is the best of the budget companies, and if they were to tighten up their assembly procedures and a little more QC they could be right up there with some of the other brands that cost a little more and have a better track record.

I don't have access to a bench vise at the moment, which is the rate limiting factor. Have the torque bar and I am sure the wrench wouldn't be too hard to source, but makes me wonder if it would be simpler to send off to ADCO or similar and have them pin the GB and get it all done in one fell swoop.

Otherwise it is too bad, the machining is quite nice and I got both uppers on sale for very reasonable prices. Adding another $50/75 in shipping fees to the total cost would be a bummer but I don't think I would be getting a raw deal by any means.


If you don’t have a good local shop, and are going to the trouble of shipping an upper you might as well. There is no downside unless you want to constantly fiddle around with tearing down and rebuilding your guns.

I’m looking to pick up a SOLGW 13.7” upper and will request the GB be pinned.

This is one of those things that doesn’t seem like an issue shooting 1500 rounds over 10 range trips vs 1500 rounds in two days of training. Firing schedule is a thing.

Not aware of any shops in the Denver metro area that I specifically trust, so was looking to ship out for work. Appreciate leads if you have outfits you like.

[ASH556]

I’ve used ADCO with good results and heard positive things about D. Wilson MFG.

Neither of those have pinned gas blocks for me but they should be ok. On my personal guns I prefer (and at present only have) shaved FSB’s. Dual taper-pinned Colt FSB’s under handguards aren’t going anywhere. I do own a pinning jig and have pinned gas blocks for myself and others. I also own a dimpling jig. Just don’t work out of an FFL anymore so shipping stuff in for work gets hairy (I don’t do it).

I’d sent to ADCO if I were you.

[Wake27]

Yeah, it's definitely the best AR-specific forum I have found. I am just relatively new to the AR world so don't have a good perspective on how to evaluate certain complaints. For example, I have ton of time behind 9mm glocks, so despite all the gnashing of teeth here about BTF - which I've definitely experienced, and sucked- I knew that at least in my guns it wasn't a serious problem. Don't have that degree of insight into ARs, so it's hard to discriminate with the same granularity.



I don't have access to a bench vise at the moment, which is the rate limiting factor. Have the torque bar and I am sure the wrench wouldn't be too hard to source, but makes me wonder if it would be simpler to send off to ADCO or similar and have them pin the GB and get it all done in one fell swoop.

Otherwise it is too bad, the machining is quite nice and I got both uppers on sale for very reasonable prices. Adding another $50/75 in shipping fees to the total cost would be a bummer but I don't think I would be getting a raw deal by any means.



Not aware of any shops in the Denver metro area that I specifically trust, so was looking to ship out for work. Appreciate leads if you have outfits you like.

There’s a shop in the Springs that’s pretty good - Family Firearms. They changed some MDs that I didn’t feel like doing and cut down a buddy’s BCM SOCOM to 13.7 and pinned a WarComp. If you made the drive, I’m sure they’d be able to do it. That said, John Thomas at Retro Arms gets my serious work. I sent him all the components to build an upper a few days ago, should be there by Monday or sooner.

I’ve used him several times in the past and he is outstanding. ADCO used to be the default but if nothing else, they’ll scratch up your parts and post a FAQ on their site saying it is what it is. They’re also much more expensive than JT. I’ll let you know turnaround time if you want, it’s literally been within days in the past for me.

You can go on the USPS website and “order” their priority mail medium tubes. They’ll send them to you for free in a 10 pack, and they’re great to have on hand for sending uppers. With $1400 worth of insurance, it cost me $33 I believe. Obviously if they lose it, they suck to deal with, but far cheaper and faster than UPS/FEDEX IME so I’m still willing to risk it.

All that said, I’ve never understood the mentality of “it hasn’t failed me yet so it’s good to go.” To me, that’s like “I haven’t needed a gun yet so I don’t need to conceal carry,” except that one is far more likely to happen. I expect all of my shit (to include Hodge and KAC) to break at any given time, I just expect it sooner from my beater PSA. The pinned gas block is like many things, if it’s done right, it’ll probably be ok. BCM doesn’t pin their blocks and I’ve yet to hear of one coming loose, but if it didn’t come from a manufacturer I trust, I’d be more concerned about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

There’s a shop in the Springs that’s pretty good - Family Firearms. They changed some MDs that I didn’t feel like doing and cut down a buddy’s BCM SOCOM to 13.7 and pinned a WarComp. If you made the drive, I’m sure they’d be able to do it. That said, John Thomas at Retro Arms gets my serious work. I sent him all the components to build an upper a few days ago, should be there by Monday or sooner.

I’ve used him several times in the past and he is outstanding. ADCO used to be the default but if nothing else, they’ll scratch up your parts and post a FAQ on their site saying it is what it is. They’re also much more expensive than JT. I’ll let you know turnaround time if you want, it’s literally been within days in the past for me.

You can go on the USPS website and “order” their priority mail medium tubes. They’ll send them to you for free in a 10 pack, and they’re great to have on hand for sending uppers. With $1400 worth of insurance, it cost me $33 I believe. Obviously if they lose it, they suck to deal with, but far cheaper and faster than UPS/FEDEX IME so I’m still willing to risk it.

All that said, I’ve never understood the mentality of “it hasn’t failed me yet so it’s good to go.” To me, that’s like “I haven’t needed a gun yet so I don’t need to conceal carry,” except that one is far more likely to happen. I expect all of my shit (to include Hodge and KAC) to break at any given time, I just expect it sooner from my beater PSA. The pinned gas block is like many things, if it’s done right, it’ll probably be ok. BCM doesn’t pin their blocks and I’ve yet to hear of one coming loose, but if it didn’t come from a manufacturer I trust, I’d be more concerned about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's good to know. I don't suppose you know how JT charges to pin a gas block, do you? Not listed on his site; otherwise I'll call or email. I'll check out Family firearms too, though given current pandemic shipping may be a little easier than the drive.

The 2 Aeros I have are not my "go to ARs" (as a very low speed individual it's a bit hard to use the term seriously); I have other ARs whose assembly quality I have more trust in so getting these pinned is not an enormous, urgent priority. That said I do rather like these guns otherwise, so I'd like to be able to trust them. Seems like a better deal to simply have the GBs pinned than to take a loss on flipping them in order to buy new uppers, particularly in current climate.

[RevolverRob]

A good dimple and a set screw with threadlocker on it seems like it's unlikely to work itself loose.
__

I've had good luck with ADCO in the past and wouldn't be afraid to use them again.

That said, I look forward to the response from Retro Arms

___

I'm still pretty firmly in the camp of "BUY ALL THE TOOLS" - But I know I've said before - I love tools and having the tools on hand makes me happy.

If I didn't have a bench vise - the Wilton Super-Junior (https://www.amazon.com/Wilton-63247-Cbv-100-Super-Junior-Opening/dp/B0006NGH08/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=prime-day&ie=UTF8&qid=1499650136&sr=8-12&keywords=clamp+vise&linkCode=sl1&tag=bench-vise-20&linkId=8e4c82e0c667c45e843b096f461cce02) which clamps on, would be my choice. Hell, I may get one anyways for my Harbor Freight workbench. It has a wood-working bench vise built in, that I have modified with angle-iron inserts, to do metal things with, but more gripping power is never a bad idea. Like cars, you can never have too much horsepower and too much traction...

[Nephrology]

A good dimple and a set screw with threadlocker on it seems like it's unlikely to work itself loose.
__

I've had good luck with ADCO in the past and wouldn't be afraid to use them again.

That said, I look forward to the response from Retro Arms

___

I'm still pretty firmly in the camp of "BUY ALL THE TOOLS" - But I know I've said before - I love tools and having the tools on hand makes me happy.

If I didn't have a bench vise - the Wilton Super-Junior (https://www.amazon.com/Wilton-63247-Cbv-100-Super-Junior-Opening/dp/B0006NGH08/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=prime-day&ie=UTF8&qid=1499650136&sr=8-12&keywords=clamp+vise&linkCode=sl1&tag=bench-vise-20&linkId=8e4c82e0c667c45e843b096f461cce02) which clamps on, would be my choice. Hell, I may get one anyways for my Harbor Freight workbench. It has a wood-working bench vise built in, that I have modified with angle-iron inserts, to do metal things with, but more gripping power is never a bad idea. Like cars, you can never have too much horsepower and too much traction...

That was the other option I was thinking, too. I have enough ARs that it may make more sense to invest in some of the tools. Wouldn't solve my GB problem but would at least let me check barrel nut, etc.

[HCM]

Yeah, it's definitely the best AR-specific forum I have found. I am just relatively new to the AR world so don't have a good perspective on how to evaluate certain complaints. For example, I have ton of time behind 9mm glocks, so despite all the gnashing of teeth here about BTF - which I've definitely experienced, and sucked- I knew that at least in my guns it wasn't a serious problem. Don't have that degree of insight into ARs, so it's hard to discriminate with the same granularity.



I don't have access to a bench vise at the moment, which is the rate limiting factor. Have the torque bar and I am sure the wrench wouldn't be too hard to source, but makes me wonder if it would be simpler to send off to ADCO or similar and have them pin the GB and get it all done in one fell swoop.

Otherwise it is too bad, the machining is quite nice and I got both uppers on sale for very reasonable prices. Adding another $50/75 in shipping fees to the total cost would be a bummer but I don't think I would be getting a raw deal by any means.



Not aware of any shops in the Denver metro area that I specifically trust, so was looking to ship out for work. Appreciate leads if you have outfits you like.

SOLGW and ADCO would be where I would start.

Luckily you only need to ship the upper so it shouldn’t be too expensive.

[Darth_Uno]

Going to query this thread as it seems appropriate.

I have two factory assembled Aero Precision uppers that have so far worked fine, though both have relatively low roundcounts (350 on my 11.5", 200 on my 16"). Subjectively, they seem pretty well built; fit and finish are quite nice and I have been pleased with their accuracy so far.

That said, after much obsessive M4C querying, I am wondering about a couple aspects of their assembly and whether or not I should be concerned. Specifically:

1. Some folks have said that their complete uppers sometimes don't have proper barrel nut torque. I have yet to pull the handguard off it and check, and I'm not even sure if I have the right wrench for their barrel nut; I hazily remember maybe getting one with the upper, but it has been a while and may have been lost in the move. Is this something that would have caused a problem by now?

2. The other area I wonder about is the low profile gas blocks. I've read online that Aero doesn't dimple their barrels for their low pro gas blocks, but I can't confirm that personally. Likewise, is this something that would have presented as a problem right now? Is it a problem to begin with?

3. On a related note, reading too much M4C has put the idea in my head that I should get all my low pro gas blocks pinned anyway so as to avoid being kilt in the streetz. Seems like this might address problems #1 and #2 as presumably whatever smithing service I use would ensure barrel nut is torqued to spec. Worthwhile or waste of cash?

Thoughts?

1) Any manufacturer can have something slip through the cracks. Also, depending on your nut and rail, you may not have to line up the gas tube through the nut. So you just have to hit the minimum ft/lb (usually 35# or so). If you’re worried it’s free to check, but there’s a 99.9% chance you’re fine.

2 & 3) yes everyone says you should dimple barrels, but I’ve built several myself and not done it. They’re fine several thousand rounds later. That’s one of those things that will either fail immediately and obviously, or last forever. If your day job doesn’t involve kicking in doors, you’re likely fine. FTR you can get pre-dimpled barrels, like some BCM’s and I’d assume others.

Pinning a gas block is like 93 octane gas. I’ll admit it’s better, and some people need it...but you probably don’t.

[HCM]

1) Any manufacturer can have something slip through the cracks. Also, depending on your nut and rail, you may not have to line up the gas tube through the nut. So you just have to hit the minimum ft/lb (usually 35# or so). If you’re worried it’s free to check, but there’s a 99.9% chance you’re fine.

2 & 3) yes everyone says you should dimple barrels, but I’ve built several myself and not done it. They’re fine several thousand rounds later. That’s one of those things that will either fail immediately and obviously, or last forever. If your day job doesn’t involve kicking in doors, you’re likely fine. FTR you can get pre-dimpled barrels, like some BCM’s and I’d assume others.

Pinning a gas block is like 93 octane gas. I’ll admit it’s better, and some people need it...but you probably don’t.

If you don’t want to buy a pre-dental barrel or dimple the barrel you should buy a clamp on gas block. Just because she got away with cutting a corner doesn’t mean it’s the proper way to do things.

More significantly though, when I see a manufacture cutting corners like not dimpling a barrel or using Loctite on a castle nut instead of proper staking it makes me question everything else they are doing.

Pardon me if I am misremembering but aren’t you a building contractor?

If so, how many times have you done renovations or seen new construction with corners cut that you would find unacceptable in your own work? Just because those houses didn’t collapse and kill their occupants doesn’t mean cutting those corners was the right way to do things or would not cause other issues down the road.

[RevolverRob]

If you don’t want to buy a pre-dental barrel or dimple the barrel you should buy a clamp on gas block. Just because she got away with cutting a corner doesn’t mean it’s the proper way to do things.

More significantly though, when I see a manufacture cutting corners like not dimpling a barrel or using Loctite on a castle nut instead of proper staking it makes me question everything else they are doing.


Sure, we want to question them. At this point - the uppers been bought, built, and shot some.

So, we're (Neph really, but in a general sense) at the point where the only thing to do is fix or manage what was built.

Fortunately, compared to tearing out a poorly plumbed bathroom, fixing an AR is a total cakewalk. Neph can fix humans (well...almost) I'm sure he can handle a torque wrench, a dimple jig, and a power drill, without much trouble. Staking a castle nut and torquing a barrel nut is hardly more complicated than changing a flat tire.

A dimple jig, an AR multi-wrench, a mag-well vise block, some punches for drift pins, and a set of go/no-go gauges is basically all one needs to build/maintain an AR15. It's a beautifuly simple machine at it's core.

[Borderland]

Sure, we want to question them. At this point - the uppers been bought, built, and shot some.

So, we're (Neph really, but in a general sense) at the point where the only thing to do is fix or manage what was built.

Fortunately, compared to tearing out a poorly plumbed bathroom, fixing an AR is a total cakewalk. Neph can fix humans (well...almost) I'm sure he can handle a torque wrench, a dimple jig, and a power drill, without much trouble. Staking a castle nut and torquing a barrel nut is hardly more complicated than changing a flat tire.

A dimple jig, an AR multi-wrench, a mag-well vise block, some punches for drift pins, and a set of go/no-go gauges is basically all one needs to build/maintain an AR15. It's a beautifuly simple machine at it's core.

Are you saying I don't need to buy Danial Defense or LMT, just some tools? I couldn't afford that anyway on my draw. :D

[RevolverRob]

Are you saying I don't need to buy Danial Defense or LMT, just some tools? I couldn't afford that anyway on my draw. :D

You need tools and quality, in-specification, components, and some brain power.

And that's really about it.

It's not rocket surgery here.

Probably the hardest damn thing is making sure your gas settings are right for your carrier weight, spring, and buffer weight. Fortunately, before you go drilling gas holes out, you can rather easily change springs and buffer weights to see if you can get it working.

It's actually the thing I like - a lot about the AR15 - "direct impingement" is just the Nomenklatura of the AR15 elites for "gas-delayed blow-back"

Look at an AR15...the bolt has gas blown on it and pushes back against a fairly hefty spring and buffer weight, action cycles back, then gets shoved back forward. If you eliminate the "gas blown on the bolt" part - it's definitionally a blow-back gun. This as opposed to a piston gun, where the gas blows onto a piston/op-rod which cycles the action.

[Borderland]

You need tools and quality, in-specification, components, and some brain power.

And that's really about it.

It's not rocket surgery here.

Probably the hardest damn thing is making sure your gas settings are right for your carrier weight, spring, and buffer weight. Fortunately, before you go drilling gas holes out, you can rather easily change springs and buffer weights to see if you can get it working.

It's actually the thing I like - a lot about the AR15 - "direct impingement" is just the Nomenklatura of the AR15 elites for "gas-delayed blow-back"

Look at an AR15...the bolt has gas blown on it and pushes back against a fairly hefty spring and buffer weight, action cycles back, then gets shoved back forward. If you eliminate the "gas blown on the bolt" part - it's definitionally a blow-back gun. This as opposed to a piston gun, where the gas blows onto a piston/op-rod which cycles the action.

One of the reasons I have a Mini-14. It's piston/op-rod. Not that's there's anything wrong with DI, but cleaning a piston gun is like, you hardly ever have to clean it.

[HCM]

You need tools and quality, in-specification, components, and some brain power.

And that's really about it.

It's not rocket surgery here.

Probably the hardest damn thing is making sure your gas settings are right for your carrier weight, spring, and buffer weight. Fortunately, before you go drilling gas holes out, you can rather easily change springs and buffer weights to see if you can get it working.

It's actually the thing I like - a lot about the AR15 - "direct impingement" is just the Nomenklatura of the AR15 elites for "gas-delayed blow-back"

Look at an AR15...the bolt has gas blown on it and pushes back against a fairly hefty spring and buffer weight, action cycles back, then gets shoved back forward. If you eliminate the "gas blown on the bolt" part - it's definitionally a blow-back gun. This as opposed to a piston gun, where the gas blows onto a piston/op-rod which cycles the action.

Over gassing is far more common a problem than under gassing, especially on cheaper ARs.

While black river tactical makes inserts to reduce Gasport size changing the buffer in the mainspring is often an easier and simpler fix.

[Nephrology]

Over gassing is far more common a problem than under gassing, especially on cheaper ARs.

While black river tactical makes inserts to reduce Gasport size changing the buffer in the mainspring is often an easier and simpler fix.

Yeah I don't think I'd trust a gas port insert. I don't see myself mucking with the gas system in a meaningful way until a) it's having a problem cycling and/or b) I finally buy a rifle can. Of my 3x 11.5" uppers, the DSG seems the most appropriately gassed, the Aero a little overgassed, and my beater PSA obviously overgassed. All 3 feed/fire/eject no problem so far.

[Wake27]

Yeah I don't think I'd trust a gas port insert. I don't see myself mucking with the gas system in a meaningful way until a) it's having a problem cycling and/or b) I finally buy a rifle can. Of my 3x 11.5" uppers, the DSG seems the most appropriately gassed, the Aero a little overgassed, and my beater PSA obviously overgassed. All 3 feed/fire/eject no problem so far.

I'm sending you a PM on pricing from JT. His website isn't super detailed but his email response has often been near instantaneous for me. The BRT inserts and gas tubes have gotten good reviews so far but unless you're prepared to tear an upper apart yourself, it may be worth rebarreling (maybe). Just something to consider.

[HCM]

Yeah I don't think I'd trust a gas port insert. I don't see myself mucking with the gas system in a meaningful way until a) it's having a problem cycling and/or b) I finally buy a rifle can. Of my 3x 11.5" uppers, the DSG seems the most appropriately gassed, the Aero a little overgassed, and my beater PSA obviously overgassed. All 3 feed/fire/eject no problem so far.

Over gassing makes sense from a manufacturer point of you when targeting the cheaper end of the market because it helps cycle reliably with weaker ammo, steel cased ammo etc.. The downsides are increased recoil and increased where but if you’re buying a cheap PSA up or just to run wolf steel case it doesn’t really matter. Things like that are fine as long as you are honest about what they are.

One of the things with companies like PSA versus some of the higher end brands is less consistency. In fact some of their CHF barrel uppers are pretty good. The issue is Even with they are higher grade components the odds that you may or may not get a properly assembled product are higher than with some other brands.

We’ve talked about how quality can go up and down. Bushmaster and rock river being prime examples, PSA started out strong and then put out some real dog crap after they made a name for themselves. Some of that was assembly issues and some of that was being willing to put their name on parts rejected by other manufacturers. In fairness, it seems PSA has actually improved their quality in the last couple years now that they are making their own barrels and making more things in the house.

Some companies experience quality issues during growing pains and get over them (like CMMG) and some just let poor standards become their new normal..

[Nephrology]

I'm sending you a PM on pricing from JT. His website isn't super detailed but his email response has often been near instantaneous for me. The BRT inserts and gas tubes have gotten good reviews so far but unless you're prepared to tear an upper apart yourself, it may be worth rebarreling (maybe). Just something to consider.

Got it!

None of the uppers I own right now are crappy and/or shot out enough to warrant a re-barrel. When I have the $$ for a rifle can, I will probably be more inclined to simply get a new upper (like the BRT 11.5" optimized for suppression) than try and dick around with trying to get a cheap lower to work.


Over gassing makes sense from a manufacturer point of you when targeting the cheaper end of the market because it helps cycle reliably with weaker ammo, steel cased ammo etc.. The downsides are increased recoil and increased where but if you’re buying a cheap PSA up or just to run wolf steel case it doesn’t really matter. Things like that are fine as long as you are honest about what they are.

One of the things with companies like PSA versus some of the higher end brands is less consistency. In fact some of their CHF barrel uppers are pretty good. The issue is Even with they are higher grade components the odds that you may or may not get a properly assembled product are higher than with some other brands.

We’ve talked about how quality can go up and down. Bushmaster and rock river being prime examples, PSA started out strong and then put out some real dog crap after they made a name for themselves. Some of that was assembly issues and some of that was being willing to put their name on parts rejected by other manufacturers. In fairness, it seems PSA has actually improved their quality in the last couple years now that they are making their own barrels and making more things in the house.

Some companies experience quality issues during growing pains and get over them (like CMMG) and some just let poor standards become their new normal..

Yeah, to be honest, I am quite happy with my PSA for what it is. It has a fixed FSB so I'm not worried about the GB walking out, and it was a $200 upper to begin with so it will only eat cheap Wolf steel case ammo. Plan to shoot it until it breaks and then either replace or repair, whichever seems more sensible at the time. Not a gun I'd send for smithing, and i'm happy it's overgassed as it's purpose is to be my red-headed stepchild.

The Aeros I am a little more on the fence on as the quality of the parts seems to be rather nice, but as mentioned I have reservations about assembly quality. This is why it is tempting to sink a little more money into them to ensure they are up to a higher standard than I expect of the PSA; seems less expensive than flipping them to pay for a higher tier upper, but I haven't totally ruled out that option either.

I actually have an RRA upper too - their 20" varmint bbl. It's surprisingly proven to be the most accurate rifle I own by a wide margin. Has proven to be sub-MOA at 100yd with factory 77gr match ammo. So far no problems but even if it malfunctions, I don't especially care, as it's a purpose built paper puncher. As long as it keeps rounds close to each other on paper I am happy.

[RevolverRob]

One of the reasons I have a Mini-14. It's piston/op-rod. Not that's there's anything wrong with DI, but cleaning a piston gun is like, you hardly ever have to clean it.

Just keep spraying lube on it and occasionally take the bolt out and clean the crap off of it.

Pat Rogers and E.A.G. had Filthy 14 go some 60,000 rounds without more than a couple of real cleanings.

Keep spraying lube on it.

[Wake27]

Just keep spraying lube on it and occasionally take the bolt out and clean the crap off of it.

Pat Rogers and E.A.G. had Filthy 14 go some 60,000 rounds without more than a couple of real cleanings.

Keep spraying lube on it.

Yeah the whole thing about DI ARs getting so dirty is well overplayed. I'll maybe wipe mine down every 750-1k but have been tempted to just let one roll and see where it chokes.

[ASH556]

Yeah the whole thing about DI ARs getting so dirty is well overplayed. I'll maybe wipe mine down every 750-1k but have been tempted to just let one roll and see where it chokes.

^^This. I primarily shoot 10.3" suppressed SBR. Here's a pic of the worn action spring I recently replaced. I probably cleaned it 3-4 times over the life of this spring (5,000 or so rounds). 0 malfunctions.

https://i.imgur.com/Az66yCdl.jpg

[RevolverRob]

Yeah the whole thing about DI ARs getting so dirty is well overplayed. I'll maybe wipe mine down every 750-1k but have been tempted to just let one roll and see where it chokes.

Well to be fair, compared to an Op-Rod/Piston gun, DI guns DO get really dirty.

BUT...that dirt has to accumulate for a long time, before it really matters. The first time Filthy 14 experience a malfunction was at 6,450 rounds according to what Rogers wrote in SWAT Magazine (http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/). After wiping the bolt down and lubing the gun it ran another 6500 rounds, before another malf occurred (weak extraction)

That's basically telling you something isn't it? That you can probably go a thousand or two rounds without cleaning your gun, if you just put some lube on it.

AR15s are like all the best things in life...better with lube. ;)

[Wake27]

Well to be fair, compared to an Op-Rod/Piston gun, DI guns DO get really dirty.

BUT...that dirt has to accumulate for a long time, before it really matters. The first time Filthy 14 experience a malfunction was at 6,450 rounds according to what Rogers wrote in SWAT Magazine (http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/). After wiping the bolt down and lubing the gun it ran another 6500 rounds, before another malf occurred (weak extraction)

That's basically telling you something isn't it? That you can probably go a thousand or two rounds without cleaning your gun, if you just put some lube on it.

AR15s are like all the best things in life...better with lube. ;)

Big facts.

[Darth_Uno]

If you don’t want to buy a pre-dental barrel or dimple the barrel you should buy a clamp on gas block. Just because she got away with cutting a corner doesn’t mean it’s the proper way to do things.

More significantly though, when I see a manufacture cutting corners like not dimpling a barrel or using Loctite on a castle nut instead of proper staking it makes me question everything else they are doing.

Pardon me if I am misremembering but aren’t you a building contractor?

If so, how many times have you done renovations or seen new construction with corners cut that you would find unacceptable in your own work? Just because those houses didn’t collapse and kill their occupants doesn’t mean cutting those corners was the right way to do things or would not cause other issues down the road.

You are 100% correct. The difference is, on both my personal home and personal guns, I’m there to monitor it.

What I wasn’t clear about is...well I was going to say minor items, but they’re only minor until they stop working. I would recommend a dimpled or pinned gas block on any Very Serious Use weapon. If yours is not dimpled or pinned, but it worked for a couple thousand rounds so far, it’s probably not going to stop working at this point. But I’m not going to say it wouldn’t be better to have a dimpled gas block to start with.

I’ve certainly seen many items in homes that could’ve been done better to start with. But if it doesn’t leak, squeak, or catch on fire it’s not really worth redoing.

[Rick R]

<snippage>
In fact during Lucky Gunner’s big test of steel case vs brass case wear rates two of the four pre Remington Bushmaster test guns developed early accuracy issues which were identified as being loose barrel nuts. When checked, they were both only 10 ft/lbs vs the 30 to 80 FT/lbs they should be. Some manufacturers use thread lockers on barrel nuts and castle nuts in lieu of torque values and staking which is just bullshit.

A properly installed set screw gas block is fine for most uses BUT proper installation starts with dimpling the barrel for the set screw. Without the dimple it is just a matter of time /round count before it fails.

Pinning a gas block is the belt and suspenders approach for most uses but it is nice insurance for things like duty guns.

IMHO “30 to 80 FT/lbs” is not a specification, it’s a range. My mother can apply 10 FT/lbs bare handed. Those guns were assembled just before lunch or quitting time and then shipped before the guy with the wrench got back. Not a surprise with Bushmaster.

I’ve assembled several uppers with non-dimpled set screw gas blocks. I’ve never had one come loose and read Iraqi Gunz on M4C say the same thing with the proviso that it’s properly assembled to begin with. Usually removing one after a few hundred rounds requires a couple taps with a small hammer due to carbon buildup.

Really, the guys on M4C are perfectionistas about their rifles. It’s not a bad thing but you’ll be just fine with the uppers you have until you put enough rounds thru them to shake them apart.

[ASH556]

Well to be fair, compared to an Op-Rod/Piston gun, DI guns DO get really dirty.

BUT...that dirt has to accumulate for a long time, before it really matters. The first time Filthy 14 experience a malfunction was at 6,450 rounds according to what Rogers wrote in SWAT Magazine (http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/). After wiping the bolt down and lubing the gun it ran another 6500 rounds, before another malf occurred (weak extraction)

That's basically telling you something isn't it? That you can probably go a thousand or two rounds without cleaning your gun, if you just put some lube on it.

AR15s are like all the best things in life...better with lube. ;)

It depends on the OP-rod/Piston gun you're talking about. It has more to do with looser dimensions and overall design than it does "piston vs DI." There's a reason no serious users are running around with piston conversions in their DI AR's. When people do that, they introduce all manner of additional issues and usually reduce the reliability of the weapon; not improve it.

[Caballoflaco]

It's actually the thing I like - a lot about the AR15 - "direct impingement" is just the Nomenklatura of the AR15 elites for "gas-delayed blow-back"

Because I’m bored on lockdown, and you’re wrong, I’m going to burn the calories of refuting this.

Soory Rob, but an ar is not gas-delayed blowback. A gas-delayed blowback gun uses pressure from the fired cartridge to lock the breach in place. An HK p7 is a good example. In that gun, gas from firing forces the gas piston into and extended position and locks the slide in place until pressure in the barrel drops. As pressure in the gas piston is reduced it is forced back into the cylinder by the inertia of the recoiling slide. If you fired a p7 with the gas cylinder removed the cartridge would prematurely extract sending powder gas and brass flying into the ether and the slide flying rearward at way higher than intended velocity.

An AR is is a gas-operated system that uses combustion gas to open a mechanically locked breach by applying force to the bolt carrier. If you took the gas tube off an AR it simply becomes a single shot gun. There is no gas pressure to force the bolt carrier to the rear, Which causes the cam pin to mechanically rotate the bolt so it can disengage from the locking lugs in the barrel extension.

[RevolverRob]

Because I’m bored on lockdown, and you’re wrong, I’m going to burn the calories of refuting this.

Soory Rob, but an ar is not gas-delayed blowback. A gas-delayed blowback gun uses pressure from the fired cartridge to lock the breach in place. An HK p7 is a good example. In that gun, gas from firing forces the gas piston into and extended position and locks the slide in place until pressure in the barrel drops. As pressure in the gas piston is reduced it is forced back into the cylinder by the inertia of the recoiling slide. If you fired a p7 with the gas cylinder removed the cartridge would prematurely extract sending powder gas and brass flying into the ether and the slide flying rearward at way higher than intended velocity.

An AR is is a gas-operated system that uses combustion gas to open a mechanically locked breach by applying force to the bolt carrier. If you took the gas tube off an AR it simply becomes a single shot gun. There is no gas pressure to force the bolt carrier to the rear, Which causes the cam pin to mechanically rotate the bolt so it can disengage from the locking lugs in the barrel extension.

Okay.

What is the purpose of the gas rings on the bolt in an AR15 bolt carrier group? What is the bolt carrier group then?

It's like the bolt is a gas piston and the carrier is a gas cylinder...Instead of gas filling the cylinder, keeping the piston compressed, the piston is locked forward and gas fills the cylinder from behind and forces the cylinder back. I should have said, "delayed gas-operated" instead.

[paperman]

Well to be fair, compared to an Op-Rod/Piston gun, DI guns DO get really dirty.

BUT...that dirt has to accumulate for a long time, before it really matters. The first time Filthy 14 experience a malfunction was at 6,450 rounds according to what Rogers wrote in SWAT Magazine (http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/). After wiping the bolt down and lubing the gun it ran another 6500 rounds, before another malf occurred (weak extraction)

That's basically telling you something isn't it? That you can probably go a thousand or two rounds without cleaning your gun, if you just put some lube on it.

AR15s are like all the best things in life...better with lube. ;)

I think people need to actually read things closer.

In 2009 it had a malfunction that was reduced with immediate action. Which I take to mean they cleared it and continued to shoot then they wiped the bolt at 6500 rounds. But I could be wrong.

Then malfunctions where about 6000-8000 rounds apart where extractor and extractor springs were replaced which was well over the normal round count to replace. The other malfunction was broken lugs.

So if they had replaced the parts on a more reasonable schedule and the lugs hadn’t broke it would have theoretically gone 30000 rounds with nothing but a couple of wipe downs and adding lube.

Also from multiple forums the last update I saw was 2017 with 67500 rounds following same routine and still no real cleaning but accuracy has degraded. Not sure about any other parts replaced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

I think people need to actually read things closer.

Yes...they do. :rolleyes:


In 2009 it had a malfunction that was reduced with immediate action. Which I take to mean they cleared it and continued to shoot then they wiped the bolt at 6500 rounds. But I could be wrong.

I took it as there was an immediate action drill and the gun was run. Then yes, at some point near the 6450 round mark the bolt was wiped down. Since Rogers listed the month and location - I ASSume that the malfunction and bolt wiping occurred nearly simultaneously.


Then malfunctions where about 6000-8000 rounds apart where extractor and extractor springs were replaced which was well over the normal round count to replace. The other malfunction was broken lugs.

Right...~6500 rounds the bolt was wiped down and then at approximately another 6500 rounds later there were malfunctions related to weak extraction that were repaired with subsequent changing of the extractor and extractor springs (at 13,010 rounds).

And I said,


The first time Filthy 14 experience a malfunction was at 6,450 rounds according to what Rogers wrote in SWAT Magazine. After wiping the bolt down and lubing the gun it ran another 6500 rounds, before another malf occurred (weak extraction)

[Joe in PNG]

Regarding the Stoner DI system, it's not a gas delayed blowback action. In insultingly pedantic fashion, I will explain what I mean.

Picture if you will a classic Mauser style bolt action. The bolt has locking lugs which engage recesses inside the barrel. To unlock, one lifts the bolt up, turns the bolt, and pulls it back to function.

Now, if you put the bolt inside a sleeve with a cam to turn it up, one gets the basic straight pull bolt seen in Mannlichers et al. Pulling the bolt straight back turns the bolt, unlocks the action, and so on. The sleeve is called the bolt carrier.

Next, add a gas piston & op rod to the bolt carrier, and the gas pressure on the piston causes the op rod to push the bolt carrier back and unlocks the bolt. The recoil of the gun does the rest of the operation. Recoil springs are a given, of course. The M-1 family comes to mind, as does the AK.

What Stoner did was remove the op rod entirely, and put the gas piston directly on the bolt carrier. This simplified the gun, and reduced the amount of moving metal, making it more accurate. But, it's still a rotating bolt that locks inside a recess in the barrel (like a Mauser), unlocked by a sleeve (like a Mannlicher), driven by gas pressure (like the Garand).

[paperman]

Yes...they do. :rolleyes:



I took it as there was an immediate action drill and the gun was run. Then yes, at some point near the 6450 round mark the bolt was wiped down. Since Rogers listed the month and location - I ASSume that the malfunction and bolt wiping occurred nearly simultaneously.



Right...~6500 rounds the bolt was wiped down and then at approximately another 6500 rounds later there were malfunctions related to weak extraction that were repaired with subsequent changing of the extractor and extractor springs (at 13,010 rounds).

And I said,

TLDR
If you read the article past the filthy 14 part. You will see that they have multiple rifles with 15000+ rounds and no malfunctions. The filthy 14 just had a little bad luck with a random malfunction at 6450 rounds and extractor malfunction at 13,010 rounds that should have been replaced before that round count. So keep your quality ar15 lubed, check for issues and maintenance up to date you should be solid for 6000 rounds easy and quite possibly 10000+

You make good points. I should have made mine clearer.

From the article

“At Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, in May 2009, it had several failures to extract, and the extractor spring was replaced at 13,010 rounds.THIS IS FAR BEYOND THE NORMAL EXTRACTOR SPRING LIFE UNDER THESE CONDITIONS.

At Wamego, Kansas, in June 2009, two bolt lugs broke at 16,400 rounds. WE REPLACED THE BCG. CONSIDERING THE FIRING SCHEDULE, THIS IS WITHIN NORMAL PARAMETERS.

At Columbus, Ohio, in November 2009, we had several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds. The shooter gave it a field cleaning and replaced the extractor and extractor spring.”

Your thoughts below
“That’s basically telling you something isn’t? That you can probably go a 1000-2000 rounds without cleaning your gun, if you just put some lube on it.”

So after reading the article and your thoughts

The filthy 14 had a random malfunction at 6450 rounds that could have been many things. Possibly was cleared then kept working or the bolt was wiped and lubed and kept working. So that makes it an outlier and makes no real sense to count it.

Second malfunction at 13010 rounds was caused do to not replacing parts that should have been replaced. So I would say very possibly it would have continued without malfunction.

Third malfunction at 16400 rounds was caused by normal wear and tear which broke lugs that has been known to happen. If they would have replaced that part earlier I would say that its very possible it would continued without malfunction

Fourth malfunction was at 24450 rounds again fixed by replacement parts that should have taken place before that round count. If replaced earlier it’s very possible no malfunction would have happened.

Fifth malfunction was around 30000 rounds which was fixed by replacing extractor spring which was was about 5000-6000 rounds less then the previous extractor fix. Which led me to say the previous fixes are possible but not a guarantee.

If you read farther in the article you will see that they have multiple rifles that have 15000+ rounds with zero malfunctions.

So your thoughts on an ar15 being only good for 1000-2000 rounds is possible. They have proof that it is not the most likely outcome.


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[RevolverRob]

So your thoughts on an ar15 being only good for 1000-2000 rounds is possible. They have proof that it is not the most likely outcome.


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Ah, I got you.

Filthy14 is relevant as a case, because it is where cleaning was thoroughly and utterly neglected for many thousands of rounds. People seem to think 500 rounds and you should scour your AR15.

When I said, “Should he good for a 1000 or 2...” I meant specifically that waiting to clean the gun would cause no issues. I was also being a bit flippant about the idea that ARs must be cleaned religiously. They need lubrication and occasional cleaning and maintenance.

Put another way if Filthy14 can go 6500 rounds without a malfunction and without cleaning (just lube) - then someone’s babied from the safe-to-range and back AR will be okay with not being cleaned for 2000 rounds or more. Maybe 6500? 10,000? I dunno. Probably clean it when you replace springs and you’ll be fine.

[HCM]

Just keep spraying lube on it and occasionally take the bolt out and clean the crap off of it.

Pat Rogers and E.A.G. had Filthy 14 go some 60,000 rounds without more than a couple of real cleanings.

Keep spraying lube on it.

uhhhhh

Borderland is talking about a Ruger Mini 14.

Pat Rogers "Filthy 14" was a BCM AR-15,

Being a retired USMC Warrant Officer, Pat had his/ EAG's guns organized like a true armory to include rack numbers. Filthy 14 was so named because it was rack number 14.

You are not gonna get 60,000 rounds out of a mini 14 regardless of how much you clean and lube it.

As I recall Filthy 14 was part of a project between EAG and BCM and it was cleaned at least once during that time against Pat's wishes on an eval trip back to the factory.

[RevolverRob]

uhhhhh

Borderland is talking about a Ruger Mini 14.

Pat Rogers "Filthy 14" was a BCM AR-15,

Being a retired USMC Warrant Officer, Pat had his/ EAG's guns organized like a true armory to include rack numbers. Filthy 14 was so named because it was rack number 14.

You are not gonna get 60,000 rounds out of a mini 14 regardless of how much you clean and lube it.

As I recall Filthy 14 was part of a project between EAG and BCM and it was cleaned at least once during that time against Pat's wishes on an eval trip back to the factory.

Yes. Filthy 14 is a BCM AR15.

Borderland was saying he doesn’t want to have to clean an AR15, like he doesn’t need to clean his Mini-14. I was using Filthy 14 as an example of how you do not need to clean an AR15 as often as people say you do.

[rob_s]

Random things...

1) all lowers are not created equal. Some are more better, and many are more worse. Particularly for those of us that have been around long enough, we will likely never trust just any lower due to many, many, many lower receiver problems immediately after the ban.

2) if I thought there was any chance I’d be relying on my AR for self defense, I’d pin the gas block. If I only owned one AR and/or couldn’t travel to a match or class with a backup gun, I’d pin the gas block. ADCO has done work for me in the distant past, and that’s who I’d use today. If my AR shooting was confined to throwing it in the truck with a half dozen other guns and going to the static range, I probably wouldn’t bother.

[Nephrology]

Random things...

1) all lowers are not created equal. Some are more better, and many are more worse. Particularly for those of us that have been around long enough, we will likely never trust just any lower due to many, many, many lower receiver problems immediately after the ban.

2) if I thought there was any chance I’d be relying on my AR for self defense, I’d pin the gas block. If I only owned one AR and/or couldn’t travel to a match or class with a backup gun, I’d pin the gas block. ADCO has done work for me in the distant past, and that’s who I’d use today. If my AR shooting was confined to throwing it in the truck with a half dozen other guns and going to the static range, I probably wouldn’t bother.

Got a quote from a gunsmith (thanks to Wake27 for the recommendation) to disassemble/inspect/reassemble my Aero uppers + pin the gas block on each comes to ~$80/gun, or $160 total plus shipping each direction. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Ordered some shipping supplies from USPS and will get it out in the mail sooner than later.

I thought about flipping these guns + buying different uppers, but ultimately it's cheaper and probably more appropriate to just get what I already own pinned. As someone that will probably never point a gun at someone else in anger, whatever upgrading I do is purely for my own confidence and satisfaction (as you've alluded to). $160 + shipping seems to the perfect price point for that return.

re: #1, however; do you feel this holds true for lowers that have already been assembled and shown to work? Certainly dimensional variance can be a problem with lower machining but it seems like if you're building one you will find that out much sooner than later. Certainly agree though that the quality of the parts you throw in the lower are something worth spending money on.

[Wake27]

Got a quote from a gunsmith (thanks to Wake27 for the recommendation) to disassemble/inspect/reassemble my Aero uppers + pin the gas block on each comes to ~$80/gun, or $160 total plus shipping each direction. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Ordered some shipping supplies from USPS and will get it out in the mail sooner than later.

I thought about flipping these guns + buying different uppers, but ultimately it's cheaper and probably more appropriate to just get what I already own pinned. As someone that will probably never point a gun at someone else in anger, whatever upgrading I do is purely for my own confidence and satisfaction (as you've alluded to). $160 + shipping seems to the perfect price point for that return.

re: #1, however; do you feel this holds true for lowers that have already been assembled and shown to work? Certainly dimensional variance can be a problem with lower machining but it seems like if you're building one you will find that out much sooner than later. Certainly agree though that the quality of the parts you throw in the lower are something worth spending money on.

The lower really isn’t a high-wear part because it doesn’t experience the pressure that an upper will. If everything assembled fine and works for the first few rounds, chances are you’ll never have an issue aside from normal wear and tear on springs and the like. The only exception would be the castle nut. It should be torqued to 38-42 foot pounds and staked in two places. If not properly secured that way, it can work loose over time.


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[Nephrology]

The lower really isn’t a high-wear part because it doesn’t experience the pressure that an upper will. If everything assembled fine and works for the first few rounds, chances are you’ll never have an issue aside from normal wear and tear on springs and the like. The only exception would be the castle nut. It should be torqued to 38-42 foot pounds and staked in two places. If not properly secured that way, it can work loose over time.


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Yeah that was more or less my understanding. I had forgotten about castle nut; I assembled all of my lowers myself so I made sure to buy a good quality buffer tube made of 7075 aluminum + buffer + spring from a quality manf and installed + torqued to spec + staked myself. Never have had to wonder if that was done well the first time.

[rob_s]

The lower really isn’t a high-wear part because it doesn’t experience the pressure that an upper will. If everything assembled fine and works for the first few rounds, chances are you’ll never have an issue aside from normal wear and tear on springs and the like. The only exception would be the castle nut. It should be torqued to 38-42 foot pounds and staked in two places. If not properly secured that way, it can work loose over time.


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Pretty much agree with this.

I will say, however, that I have had lowers in the past that worked fine with one combination of parts, or one particular upper, but later I found to not work with a different combination, or mate to a different upper.

If it’s working fine now, and went together without banging on it, you’re likely fine.

[MistWolf]

GAS BLOCKS

A pinned gas block is more secure, but a properly installed set screw gas block isn't going anywhere. The biggest problem is when cheap, Chinesium set screws that are too soft to bite into the barrel are used. There are set screws available that are hardened and have teeth that bite into the barrel and locks the set screw in place. If I recall, someone on M4C has a source, but I don't remember who. The set screws can also be staked in place for added security.

A clamp on gas block stretches and bends the screws as they're tightened placing them under greater stress and can lead to breakage.

BARREL NUTS

A loose barrel nut may or may not make it's presence known right away. Some ARs have been shot many times before discovering its barrel nut is loose. The gas tube locks the barrel nut in place keeping it from loosening further. A loose barrel nut may manifest itself from the start by a wandering POI. Or, it may affect POI only occasionally.

The barrel nut has a specified torque range of 30-80 ft/lbs. It's not just a torque range, it's a specified torque range. 30 is minimum. 80 is max. The sweet spot for precision is about 45. Torque needed to line up the barrel nut with the gas tube can be tuned using barrel shims.

BUYING A (LOW) BUDGET AR

One school of thought is to buy a (low) budget AR and use the savings for optics & a trigger upgrade. This is fine if part of that money is set aside for replacement springs, heavier buffers and fuel, ammo & range fees for function tests. The purchaser should also posses good troubleshooting skills. If one doesn't have troubleshooting skills, a budget AR will teach them.

Budget ARs use out of spec springs, over sized gas ports and underweight (carbine weight) buffers, all of which have an affect on function. Some affects will be readily apparent. Some will not. Unless a shooter knows how to troubleshoot and read malfunctions, a budget AR will consume enough time, money & resources that money saved for "optics & trigger" will be long spent on just getting it to run.

The good news is, once an AR is right, it stays right. If you do decide to go with a budget AR, save yourself a lot of grief and immediately replace the extractor spring with a Colt or Sprinco M4 spring (no O ring) and the carbine buffer with an H2. Then, measure your gas port and consult with Clint at Black River Tactical for the right solution if the port diameter is too large.

DON'T IMPINGE ON ME, BRO!

The AR gas system is not direct impingement. Stoner states this very clearly in his patent. The AR uses an expansion chamber in the BCG where the bolt is the piston and the carrier the cylinder. Gas enters the expansion chamber and its pressure pushes the carrier to the rear. The carrier travels a short distance before the cam pin first rotates, then unlocks the bolt before retracting it from the barrel extension. The expansion chamber is larger in diameter than the gas tube, giving the gas more surface area to push against. This is the pneumatic equivalent of "gearing down".

Direct impingement systems do not use an expansion chamber. The DI piston isn't much larger than the inner diameter of the gas tube. Also, the DI piston isn't contained in the cylinder. The DI system doesn't exhaust the gas until the piston separates from the gas tube (cylinder). The AR uses exhaust ports in the expansion chamber. In reality, the DI system is more akin to a shortened long stroke gas system than it is to the AR gas system.

The AR gas system is not blow back. The bolt of a blow back system does not lock mechanically. (The rollers of an HK do not lock the bolt, they delay movement.) The bolt of an AR locks mechanically. To unlock, the bolt must be rotated to disengage the locking lugs from the barrel extension. Without unlocking the lugs, the only way to retract the bolt is to break something.

STAYING BALANCED

For correct timing, the AR is a balancing act of the gas drive, reciprocating mass and spring rate. The gas drive is a balance of gas pressure, flow and gas mass. Ammo supplies pressure and gas mass. The reciprocating mass turns gas pressure/flow into mechanical motion. Springs temporarily stores energy and releases it at the right time at the right rate.

Over-gassing cannot be fixed by simply adding reciprocating mass. Changing the reciprocating mass changes speed and momentum which impacts timing. Timing is important to proper feeding of ammo. In turn, under-gassing cannot be fixed by reducing reciprocating mass for the same reasons.

There is an important difference between an AR that's over-gassed and one that's under-buffered. The result is the same (both will have sharper felt recoil) but the fix is different. Carbine buffers are too light. Even when an AR is gassed right (proper ammo, port location & diameter) a carbine buffer doesn't have enough mass. An AR should have at least an H buffer. Better still, an H2 which is what Colt delivers the M4A1 to the military with. What's better than an H2? A5H2 which is about the same weight as the original rifle buffer.

[awp_101]

Carbine buffers are too light. Even when an AR is gassed right (proper ammo, port location & diameter) a carbine buffer doesn't have enough mass. An AR should have at least an H buffer. Better still, an H2 which is what Colt delivers the M4A1 to the military with. What's better than an H2? A5H2 which is about the same weight as the original rifle buffer.
Serious technical question. How did we end up with carbine buffers if they're too light? Were they created on the civilian side to deal with a wide range of ammo or were they a .mil development that was a dead end that somehow got carried over to civilian manufacturing?

[TGS]

Serious technical question. How did we end up with carbine buffers if they're too light? Were they created on the civilian side to deal with a wide range of ammo or were they a .mil development that was a dead end that somehow got carried over to civilian manufacturing?

I have a feeling this is probably addressed in the Small Arms Solution video on buffers, though I don't know for sure:

ETA: Yup, standard carbine buffer comes from the XM177. H developed for M855. H2 developed for the SOCOM M4A1 program.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYf-MLMODhA

[awp_101]

Thanks TGS, that's good info!

[Doc_Glock]

While we are talking buffers. I have a couple Spikes ST-T2 buffers in a couple lowers. They run fine, and actually seem pretty smooth shooting. Is this a stupid “upgrade” that I should ditch and go to an standard H2?

[Casual Friday]

While we are talking buffers. I have a couple Spikes ST-T2 buffers in a couple lowers. They run fine, and actually seem pretty smooth shooting. Is this a stupid “upgrade” that I should ditch and go to an standard H2?

They're known for bolt bounce which ironically is one of the things the dead blow hammer effect is supposed to prevent. I'd stick with a normal H1 or H2.

[Dan_S]

... then later on even a "Delta Sierra" that I'm pretty sure was actually our own "Alpha Sierra" (RIP?)



That would have been myself, not Alpha.

[echo5charlie]

Regarding the Stoner DI system, it's not a gas delayed blowback action. In insultingly pedantic fashion, I will explain what I mean.

Picture if you will a classic Mauser style bolt action. The bolt has locking lugs which engage recesses inside the barrel. To unlock, one lifts the bolt up, turns the bolt, and pulls it back to function.

Now, if you put the bolt inside a sleeve with a cam to turn it up, one gets the basic straight pull bolt seen in Mannlichers et al. Pulling the bolt straight back turns the bolt, unlocks the action, and so on. The sleeve is called the bolt carrier.

Next, add a gas piston & op rod to the bolt carrier, and the gas pressure on the piston causes the op rod to push the bolt carrier back and unlocks the bolt. The recoil of the gun does the rest of the operation. Recoil springs are a given, of course. The M-1 family comes to mind, as does the AK.

What Stoner did was remove the op rod entirely, and put the gas piston directly on the bolt carrier. This simplified the gun, and reduced the amount of moving metal, making it more accurate. But, it's still a rotating bolt that locks inside a recess in the barrel (like a Mauser), unlocked by a sleeve (like a Mannlicher), driven by gas pressure (like the Garand).

And just to add the odd fact - the bolt in a DI system, before unlocking occurs, is pushed forward while the carrier is pushed to the rear.

[MistWolf]

And just to add the odd fact - the bolt in a DI system, before unlocking occurs, is pushed forward while the carrier is pushed to the rear.
The gas does not push the bolt of a direct impingement system forward. It only acts on the bolt face, pushing it back. The gas that operates the DI system pressurizes only the front of, or the cylindrical extension of, the carrier.

The AR does not use DI system. Gas pressurizes the back of the bolt and the face. The pressure against the bolt face is several times greater than the pressure in the expansion chamber and cannot move the bolt forward. Being mechanically locked in place also stops the bolt from being moved forward. A locked bolt can only be moved by the retracting motion of the carrier.

The benefit of that push is in felt recoil. Part of the recoil is transferred to the carrier (or bolt & oprod in the case of rifles like the Garand) delaying its release to the shooter. Therefore, the shooter doesn't get all the recoil all at once which softens how it feels.

[UNM1136]

I have never had a failure related to an AR gas key coming loose, but conventional wisdom is that this is a potential point of failure.

I had 2 M&P15s that were failing to feed. And 16 more in the safe waiting to be issued. Both of those gas keys shot loose in under 2k rounds. The M&P stakings appeared more cosemetic than functional. I bought a staking tool from Brownells and in less than an hour and a half had all of them properly staked. 12 years later those guns are still on the road. I still have "carrier key survival kits" made up in my small parts kits to move quickly when the next shoots loose.

pat

[echo5charlie]

The gas does not push the bolt of a direct impingement system forward. It only acts on the bolt face, pushing it back. The gas that operates the DI system pressurizes only the front of, or the cylindrical extension of, the carrier.

The AR does not use DI system. Gas pressurizes the back of the bolt and the face. The pressure against the bolt face is several times greater than the pressure in the expansion chamber and cannot move the bolt forward. Being mechanically locked in place also stops the bolt from being moved forward. A locked bolt can only be moved by the retracting motion of the carrier.

The benefit of that push is in felt recoil. Part of the recoil is transferred to the carrier (or bolt & oprod in the case of rifles like the Garand) delaying its release to the shooter. Therefore, the shooter doesn't get all the recoil all at once which softens how it feels.

You are correct, I was referring to the AR DI system. And yes, I do not care for the is-or-isn't DI argument anymore - 25 years on and it still rages and in the end makes no difference except to engineers.

[MistWolf]

You are correct, I was referring to the AR DI system. And yes, I do not care for the is-or-isn't DI argument anymore - 25 years on and it still rages and in the end makes no difference except to engineers.

With all due respect, if you don't care, why bother to get involved in the discussion? It's difficult to have a discussion about technical aspects when people won't bother to get the technical details correct, then dismiss the whole thing as unimportant. It hinders learning. It leads to misunderstanding.

I find it strange that people will gush over the brilliance of Eugene Stoner's designs, then immediately dismiss it when he explains how the AR gas system isn't direct impingement.

I mean this in a fashion to provoke thought and continue dialogue, not to be dismissive or condescending. I hope you take it that way.

[echo5charlie]

With all due respect, if you don't care, why bother to get involved in the discussion? It's difficult to have a discussion about technical aspects when people won't bother to get the technical details correct, then dismiss the whole thing as unimportant. It hinders learning. It leads to misunderstanding.

I find it strange that people will gush over the brilliance of Eugene Stoner's designs, then immediately dismiss it when he explains how the AR gas system isn't direct impingement.

I mean this in a fashion to provoke thought and continue dialogue, not to be dismissive or condescending. I hope you take it that way.

With all due respect, get your description of direct impingement fixed first:


The gas does not push the bolt of a direct impingement system forward. It only acts on the bolt face, pushing it back. SNIP

Not meant as condescending or anything of the like.

[Borderland]

Aw Jeez, does anyone really care if it's DI or not.

There has to 25 million of them in use and people still can't agree about how they work.

[MistWolf]

With all due respect, get your description of direct impingement fixed first:

I don't understand. Are you saying that there is no gas pressure against the face of the bolt? That the DI system does apply pressure to the back of the bolt? Or something else?


Aw Jeez, does anyone really care if it's DI or not.
I do. I can't help it. I have to know how different systems work to do my job as an aviation technician and the devil is in the details.


There has to 25 million of them in use and people still can't agree about how they work.
Those who know how they work and why, do.

[Borderland]

I do. I can't help it. I have to know how different systems work to do my job as an aviation technician and the devil is in the details.




You don't need to be an aviation technician or a mechanical engineer to fly Delta. What difference does it make if someones description doesn't fit yours? Everyone gets to their destination.

[rob_s]

I don't understand. Are you saying that there is no gas pressure against the face of the bolt? That the DI system does apply pressure to the back of the bolt? Or something else?

I do. I can't help it. I have to know how different systems work to do my job as an aviation technician and the devil is in the details.

Those who know how they work and why, do.

If it was really just about your own understanding you wouldn’t keep flogging the dead horse. As I continue to learn, you don’t have to argue with everyone on the internet to be right. At some point, just being right is enough.

54110

[JclInAtx]

I’m currently using the Ruger as my HD long gun option, and it’s set up exactly as a KISS Colt would be for HD, except it’s not a Colt. I actually prefer it to the Stag ergonomically, so a used or new old stock 6920/6720 is high on my list of future options.


Just fyi I have seen colts appearing in stock at a few different places. I first saw them at Gandrtactical, but they were gone in a day or two. GtDistributors shows 6920s in stock. They had oems as well but they appear to be gone.
6920 magpul https://www.gtdist.com/brands/colt/colt-le6920-5-56x45-16-1-bbl-black-magpul-furniture.html
6920 https://www.gtdist.com/brands/colt/colt-m4-semi-auto-16.html

Not sure where they're coming from as I thought they had dropped civilian sales.

[MistWolf]

You don't need to be an aviation technician or a mechanical engineer to fly Delta. What difference does it make if someones description doesn't fit yours? Everyone gets to their destination.

If all you wanna do is board the aircraft, fine. But don't be surprised when someone explains how the afterburner of the Boeing 737 works that someone else points out the aircraft doesn't have that type of engine.


If it was really just about your own understanding you wouldn’t keep flogging the dead horse. As I continue to learn, you don’t have to argue with everyone on the internet to be right. At some point, just being right is enough.

54110

https://media2.giphy.com/media/9wp9Ollq9usH6/giphy.webp?cid=ecf05e476a1e80263e6c009bd563a844f86 82d6bca5eb2eb&rid=giphy.webp

[ReverendMeat]

>Deliberately use incorrect terms
>Argue with people who correct you

Nice well played

[Elwin]

Just fyi I have seen colts appearing in stock at a few different places. I first saw them at Gandrtactical, but they were gone in a day or two. GtDistributors shows 6920s in stock. They had oems as well but they appear to be gone.
6920 magpul https://www.gtdist.com/brands/colt/colt-le6920-5-56x45-16-1-bbl-black-magpul-furniture.html
6920 https://www.gtdist.com/brands/colt/colt-m4-semi-auto-16.html

Not sure where they're coming from as I thought they had dropped civilian sales.

Thanks for the heads up. Nice to see there's apparently some new old stock still out there, someone should jump on those (I'm sure they will). I happened to luck into another solution for myself recently, otherwise I'd be sorely tempted. I'll post an update once I've zeroed and vetted, but right now I'm waiting for my damn handguard and some other misc. parts to get here. Finding parts with reasonable shipping times isn't as easy as usual right now.

[Nephrology]

Aero assembled uppers are packed up and ready to get shipped off for GB pinning. Asked the smith to disassemble and inspect both uppers as well, and to let me know if he is concerned about the quality of any of the parts. Will have them replaced if he thinks it's worthwhile.

Excited to get these back. Should I expect a big zero shift, or will I still be on paper at 100 with my optics (Red dot and LPVO)

[ASH556]

Aero assembled uppers are packed up and ready to get shipped off for GB pinning. Asked the smith to disassemble and inspect both uppers as well, and to let me know if he is concerned about the quality of any of the parts. Will have them replaced if he thinks it's worthwhile.

Excited to get these back. Should I expect a big zero shift, or will I still be on paper at 100 with my optics (Red dot and LPVO)

Depends on your piece of paper. 18x24...yes. 3x5 card...no.

[Nephrology]

Depends on your piece of paper. 18x24...yes. 3x5 card...no.

Fortunately I think I have targets a little bigger than a 3x5 card :D

[SecondsCount]

Hey Elwin- Just shoot your guns and shut up :cool:

Seriously. Do you know how many Colt/SOLGW/BCM rifles I see on the classifieds on forums and elsewhere with only a couple hundred rounds fired? Either these people are lying about the round count or they buy the guns, snap some photos to post on facebook or their favorite forum, shoot it a couple times, then it sits in the safe until something cooler comes along. Your round counts are way higher than those guns have ever seen.

You seem to have two guns that run well. I would use one for training/fun and the other to be ready in case you really need it. Right now is a sellers market so if you want to offload one of them to upgrade, this is a good opportunity.

[Coyote41]

Seriously. Do you know how many Colt/SOLGW/BCM rifles I see on the classifieds on forums and elsewhere with only a couple hundred rounds fired? Either these people are lying about the round count or they buy the guns, snap some photos to post on facebook or their favorite forum, shoot it a couple times, then it sits in the safe until something cooler comes along. Your round counts are way higher than those guns have ever seen.

This is actually not too uncommon, especially on collectors forums (like 1911s), for people to do to enhance their online credibility.


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[Nephrology]

Looks like my Aeros are all done - will be getting them back by Monday. Very fast turnaround time! Looking forward to getting them back.

[MK11]

Looks like my Aeros are all done - will be getting them back by Monday. Very fast turnaround time! Looking forward to getting them back.

What was the verdict? I bought a 16-inch Aero upper right before the Corona drama and have a 12.5 on order.

[Nephrology]

What was the verdict? I bought a 16-inch Aero upper right before the Corona drama and have a 12.5 on order.

Well, to be fair, I never had any malfunctions with the uppers before I sent them off for smithing. I only sent them out for GB pinning + disassembly/inspection out of an abundance of caution - I knew they didn't dimple their barrels for gas block set screws and heard sketchy things about their assembly quality, but no actual reason to be unhappy with the uppers.

If you're not worried about the GB slipping I'd leave it as is, or maybe just dimple it yourself and re-install the set screws properly. Sending it out for pinning was purely for peace of mind.

[mmc45414]

maybe just dimple it yourself and re-install the set screws properly
I just bought SLR jigs in .625 and .750 and dimpled my first barrel this week. This is one of those things that sure seems to me to make sense for the ~$32 the jig costs and as simple as it is. Even takes the fidgeting out of gas tube alignment, because if the gas port holes are lined up then everything else about the tube placement is baked in.

[Elwin]

Well, right or wrong, here's the end result (for now) that's really a combination of all the advice above. BCM 16" Mid lightweight upper on the Ruger lower, wearing an Aimpoint PRO that a forum member very generously offered me a great deal on, plus some odd parts sourced from here and there, including the Ruger. The new upper was funded by selling the Stag upper and everything attached to it. Over time I'll make the various smaller purchases to get the Ruger set up as a good backup to this, including a serialized lower to swap in. That's all pretty easy to manage gradually with the initial cash dump for a new upper out of the way.

Needless to say I'm more than happy with this - shooting it side by side with the Ruger upper is a night and day difference, and there's a lot more peace of mind, even if a lot of it may be subjective.

[Nephrology]

very nice!

Speaking of which, I have "results" of my own, as well. Got my Aero uppers back from Retro Arms Works, who disassembled + inspected the uppers and pinned the gas blocks. Feel much more confident in the uppers than before - John did a very nice job with the GB pin.

I also swapped out the Toolcraft BCGs for Geissele M4A1 BCGs (https://www.primaryarms.com/geissele-automatics-m4a1-bolt-carrier-group). Keeping the Toolcrafts as spares. Pictures of the Geissele BCG is below as well. Seems very well made - staking is quite nice.

Still waiting on the Meopta Optika6 1-6 scope to get in so I can replace the Vortex 1-4 on the Recce currently. Also ordered a pair of MBUS Pros from Amazon Warehouse at a pretty solid price - realized the plastic MBUS won't fit under the new LPVO. Once those two get here I'll head to the range to zero both rifles.

https://i.imgur.com/VqcCAhd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jltXlaD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GpwPwt5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bZXtr43.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rtIaSUK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xOqkn7w.jpg

[farscott]

A question from someone not up to speed on AR gas keys. I thought the purpose of staking the gas key was to stop the screws from rotating, and it is done by displacing metal so that the screws cannot turn. But the photo above seems to show clearance between the staked screws and the gas key metal on three of the stakes. As such, the screws appear be able to turn. I am used to an interference fit between screws and key with the screw head. What am I missing? Is it an optical illusion and the staking has displaced metal enough for the interference to the screw heads?

[mmc45414]

Is it an optical illusion and the staking has displaced metal enough for the interference to the screw heads?
I am not an expert, but those look to be staked pretty nicely.
55277

[farscott]

I found this image on the web from a Colt. That staking definitely stops the screws are turning.

[rob_s]

There are various levels of staking. It can be done only aesthetically, and then it can be overdone. Something to keep in mind is that sometimes there is more metal displaced lower. I wouldn’t let a picture in the internet be my final determining factor as to whether a particular brand stakes well or not. Those screws aren’t really under any sort of major forces encouraging them to loosen, so it take ps surprisingly little contact to keep them from backing out.

[Nephrology]

Took the Aero uppers out today and zeroed irons/optics. Both uppers run great and shoot better than I can. Very happy with the end products. Posted photos in the "What did you shoot today" thread in the image gallery for those curious.

[Nephrology]

alright, I am sure this topic has been re-hashed over and over again... but what do people think about pistol grips? Specifically looking for one for the Aero 16" Recce.

I have LaRue APEGs on my larger Recce and my 20" varmint rifle. I find that I really like these grips hen shooting from a bench or prone position, but don't really like them otherwise. The grip angle is too shallow it seems ike, and I have a hard time feeling like I am in control of the weapon when I am holding it one handed for reloads, etc.

I have Magpul K2s on all of my 11.5" guns and currently have one on the 16" Recce too. It's clear I like it a little more than the APEG for this rifle, with the heavy SS barrel it is a little too front heavy.

Any grips that kind of split the difference that are worth checking out? I've thought about simply trying a regular MOE, but not sure if that angle would be too similar to the APEG to notice a difference.

[rca90gsx]

I'm interested in the grip question as well. I currently have the K2 as well and really like it. Another thing with the "aub-par" AR is, in my opinion a great way to get started, dryfire, range time etc... I think for me more importantly is not tieing up a lot of $ on a setup that I'm not sure that I am really going to like. I plan to use sub par to learn and try things like grips etc to find out what fits me best, while I am gathering top quality parts to build what I want. Then the so-called "sub-par" piece will be the main training setup. Think USPSA or IDPA, one for practice that sees most of the rounds down range.

[Darth_Uno]

If you can get over most of their Dude-Bro gear, Strike Industries has a 25° grip that I really like. I believe that’s the same as an A2, with a better grip profile. I like it.

[Nephrology]

If you can get over most of their Dude-Bro gear, Strike Industries has a 25° grip that I really like. I believe that’s the same as an A2, with a better grip profile. I like it.

If I did my homework correctly, the A2 and MOE grips have a 25° angle and the K2 has a 17° grip angle. I feel like something in between would be ideal. Maybe 20?

[Darth_Uno]

Strike has theirs in 15, 20, & 25°. https://www.strikeindustries.com/shop/si-ar-vepg.html

I did your homework for you, and couldn’t find anything but the 25° in stock anywhere. 20° might be your sweet spot, if you can find it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Darth_Uno]

Akshully, here’s a 20° Magpul... https://magpul.com/moe-kgrip-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

Strongly advise against the magpul k unless you have abnormally tiny hands. I bought one for a tiny woman gun and even the tiny woman thought it was too small.

Get yourself a proper man-sized grip
https://tangodown.com/grips/

[Nephrology]

Strongly advise against the magpul k unless you have abnormally tiny hands. I bought one for a tiny woman gun and even the tiny woman thought it was too small.

Get yourself a proper man-sized grip
https://tangodown.com/grips/

Which one has an intermediate-ish grip angle?

[mmc45414]

Strongly advise against the magpul k unless you have abnormally tiny hands. I bought one for a tiny woman gun and even the tiny woman thought it was too small.
They make several variations, including this one that is intentionally tiny:
https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/moeslgrip-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118
And this one that looks kinda small:
https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/moe-kgrip-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118
I have this one and it seems normal girth:
https://magpul.com/catalog/product/view/id/5443/s/moe-k2-plus-grip-ar15-m4/category/3/?mp_global_color=118

[Nephrology]

They make several variations, including this one that is intentionally tiny:
https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/moeslgrip-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118
And this one that looks kinda small:
https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/moe-kgrip-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118
I have this one and it seems normal girth:
https://magpul.com/catalog/product/view/id/5443/s/moe-k2-plus-grip-ar15-m4/category/3/?mp_global_color=118

I have K2s on a bunch of my guns and they're great on the SBR/pistols, and I almost like it on the Aero Recce, but the angle is a little too steep and the rifle a little too forward heavy with the 16" SS barrel for that angle to be ideal. I might get the Strike Industries 20° as that seems like it may be a good compromise.

[rob_s]

They make several variations, including this one that is intentionally tiny:
https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/moeslgrip-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118
And this one that looks kinda small:
https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/moe-kgrip-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118
I have this one and it seems normal girth:
https://magpul.com/catalog/product/view/id/5443/s/moe-k2-plus-grip-ar15-m4/category/3/?mp_global_color=118

that's good to know. I guess. I think my experience was from a time when only the little baby grip was available, back when all this grip-angle nonsense was really kicking off and people seemed to be in a race to have the tiniest and most vertical grip because:cqb or something.

[Nephrology]

that's good to know. I guess. I think my experience was from a time when only the little baby grip was available, back when all this grip-angle nonsense was really kicking off and people seemed to be in a race to have the tiniest and most vertical grip because:cqb or something.

I ordered the original K grip anyway, even if it may end up being tiny. If it sucks I'll try the Strike Industries 20° grip next. Worst case scenario I can live with the K2, I feel like there are probably rapidly diminishing returns to trying out different AR PGs.

[fatdog]

I started shooting an AR in NRA Highpower competition in 1987, then three gun in the mid 90's and through the first decade of this century. The whole time I ran an A1 or A2 grip, then tried the Ergo which is the same angle as the A2, then the first Moe grip. Now, although I no longer compete, I find I do my best AR work with the K2 above all others.

My only theory on why that is so, is less extension of my wrist in most situations and most positions. Everybody is different.

[Norville]

I just picked up a B5 Systems grip. It is more vertical than a standard A2 and has great stippling. Haven’t installed it yet so not all that much to report.

No storage compartment if that matters. I like to keep a spare battery in my K2s.

[Nephrology]

I just picked up a B5 Systems grip. It is more vertical than a standard A2 and has great stippling. Haven’t installed it yet so not all that much to report.

No storage compartment if that matters. I like to keep a spare battery in my K2s.

Let me know how you like it vs. the K2 in particular.

[rob_s]

Here’s what I’ve been trying to reason out, having been out of the game for awhile...

When I started out, most people were running stocks “one click out” to “be in a fighting stance” and “present your plate to the threat” and whatever. The angled grip was never really comfortable for that, but the grips of the day were the A2, A1, duckbill, tango down, eventually the OG Magpul grip.. but all were angled, to really comfortable for that style shooting.

Now everyone is running sticks out, “one click in”, A1 length, etc. but the grips are all getting more and more vertical, which isn’t really ideal for that longer stock position and more bladed stance.

I have some grips that are more vertical, and I’ve tried them with the longer stock length, but for me it feels like going to the longer stock just kind of “clicked” with the grips I liked anyway like the Tango Down.

[Nephrology]

Here’s what I’ve been trying to reason out, having been out of the game for awhile...

When I started out, most people were running stocks “one click out” to “be in a fighting stance” and “present your plate to the threat” and whatever. The angled grip was never really comfortable for that, but the grips of the day were the A2, A1, duckbill, tango down, eventually the OG Magpul grip.. but all were angled, to really comfortable for that style shooting.

Now everyone is running sticks out, “one click in”, A1 length, etc. but the grips are all getting more and more vertical, which isn’t really ideal for that longer stock position and more bladed stance.

I have some grips that are more vertical, and I’ve tried them with the longer stock length, but for me it feels like going to the longer stock just kind of “clicked” with the grips I liked anyway like the Tango Down.

I am still learning WTF i should be doing with these guns but so far I have gone with a more squared-to-target stance when shooting in the action pistol bays, as it is much more similar to the isosceles grip/stance with a handgun. When shooting bench/prone/from support this is obviously different. I've noticed I don't mind, and actually prefer, the APEG (with A2 grip angle) when shooting supported - especially with a bipod, but prefer something K2 ish otherwise.

[Norville]

Let me know how you like it vs. the K2 in particular.

Finally got to put it on a lower. I don’t have a protractor, but it seems a hair less vertical than a K2. Smaller in diameter and stippling is different, almost feels like a Magpul 870 forend I did myself.

I like it, but can’t decide if I want K2s as standard, or if it even makes a difference. I do like to be able to keep a spare WML battery in the grip but I’m not above duct tape.