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UNK
04-22-2020, 01:32 PM
Out of curiosity how does one obtain training in edged weapons?
My son started BJJ but its apparently not the correct place to learn weapons incorporated with combatives.

Totem Polar
04-22-2020, 02:04 PM
Out of curiosity how does one obtain training in edged weapons?
My son started BJJ but its apparently not the correct place to learn weapons incorporated with combatives.

It is if you train with Cecil Burch. :)

After working with folks like Eric Remmen, Felix Valencia, Bram Frank, Mike Janich and Craig Douglas, I would say that you can gain a quick and dirty proficiency fastest with Mike/MBC and Craig/EWO. I’d take a weekend with either guy any time, but I’d fly and pay for a good hotel for EWO with Craig again.

I *really* liked EWO. So did one of my classmates—who just so happened to be a pioneer of the Marine Corps martial arts program. I’m not sure my opinion is worth anything, but his sure is.

As an aside, I enjoy traditional FMA play a lot, but I’m not personally convinced of the efficacy of the traditional training methods. OMMV, and all that.

Big fan of EWO.

UNK
04-22-2020, 02:21 PM
It is if you train with Cecil Burch. :)

After working with folks like Eric Remmen, Felix Valencia, Bram Frank, Mike Janich and Craig Douglas, I would say that you can gain a quick and dirty proficiency fastest with Mike/MBC and Craig/EWO. I’d take a weekend with either guy any time, but I’d fly and pay for a good hotel for EWO with Craig again.

I *really* liked EWO. So did one of my classmates—who just so happened to be a pioneer of the Marine Corps martial arts program. I’m not sure my opinion is worth anything, but his sure is.

As an aside, I enjoy traditional FMA play a lot, but I’m not personally convinced of the efficacy of the traditional training methods. OMMV, and all that.

Big fan of EWO.
Thats what I was afraid the answer was going to be. He was signed up for a CB two day but it was canceled so now we are looking at the August class. CD is on the list too but i think a bit more time in bjj plus the CB IAJJ/IAC before he goes that route. Thanks for solid advice

Mister X
04-22-2020, 03:17 PM
I don’t know much about it, but Mike does have a distance learning program... https://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/distance-learning-program

With the pandemic, something like this might be your best option for the time being.

Guerrero
04-22-2020, 03:36 PM
Another vote for Craig's Edged Weapon Overview. RevolverRob and I learned a lot in a very short period of time.

Cecil Burch
04-22-2020, 04:16 PM
I would also suggest EWO, but I would also add Chris Fry's Small Knife class. Now that he is a training director for a large group, he is not doing nearly as many open enrollment courses, but it is something to keep an eye on. He does a brilliant job of getting over concepts that actually can be put into immediate use. I have stolen a ton of things from Chris.

No personal experience, but Chris is a big fan of Tom Sotis' AMOK knife program, so based on his thoughts, I would look into that as well.

One bit of info I would strongly urge is to NOT spend much time in the beginning trying to learn the integration of weapons when you don't know the H2H side to start with. For some reason, everyone seems to want this in a hurry, but there needs to be minimal components that are functional before you can truly get anything by putting them together. Get some experience at grappling, and get a bit of understanding on how to use a blade (which fortunately is simple and straight forward for practical needs and does not take a long time) and then worry about putting them together. No one would tell someone who has never fired a pistol before to take a CQB/room clearing class for his "learning" of pistol work. We all know having a basic skill set of gun handling is a better use of time before you start trying to clear a house. The same goes for combatives integration. And honesty, I could argue that the combatives side (especially in regards to grappling) is far more complex than room clearing.

Totem Polar
04-22-2020, 05:19 PM
I would also suggest EWO, but I would also add Chris Fry's Small Knife class. Now that he is a training director for a large group, he is not doing nearly as many open enrollment courses, but it is something to keep an eye on. He does a brilliant job of getting over concepts that actually can be put into immediate use. I have stolen a ton of things from Chris...

I don’t know Chris well at all , but I took his module at PeP3, and it was rock solid. Plus, you and Craig hang with him, so I’m way in, if he ever gets to the west coast.

UNK
04-22-2020, 06:01 PM
I would also suggest EWO, but I would also add Chris Fry's Small Knife class. Now that he is a training director for a large group, he is not doing nearly as many open enrollment courses, but it is something to keep an eye on. He does a brilliant job of getting over concepts that actually can be put into immediate use. I have stolen a ton of things from Chris.

No personal experience, but Chris is a big fan of Tom Sotis' AMOK knife program, so based on his thoughts, I would look into that as well.

One bit of info I would strongly urge is to NOT spend much time in the beginning trying to learn the integration of weapons when you don't know the H2H side to start with. For some reason, everyone seems to want this in a hurry, but there needs to be minimal components that are functional before you can truly get anything by putting them together. Get some experience at grappling, and get a bit of understanding on how to use a blade (which fortunately is simple and straight forward for practical needs and does not take a long time) and then worry about putting them together. No one would tell someone who has never fired a pistol before to take a CQB/room clearing class for his "learning" of pistol work. We all know having a basic skill set of gun handling is a better use of time before you start trying to clear a house. The same goes for combatives integration. And honesty, I could argue that the combatives side (especially in regards to grappling) is far more complex than room clearing.

No hurries just trying to get a feel. Your class in Aug will be his first with knives involved. Hes home now Cecil so hopefully the local gym with multiple Gracie lineage black belts will open soon and he will get some decent additional experience before August.
Right now hes working out everyday and doing online classes.

Dave Williams
04-22-2020, 09:11 PM
I've done an AMOK class it was a blast, great guy.

Cecil Burch
04-23-2020, 11:05 AM
I don’t know Chris well at all , but I took his module at PeP3, and it was rock solid. Plus, you and Craig hang with him, so I’m way in, if he ever gets to the west coast.


Correction - we LET him hang out with us........... :)

Oukaapie
04-23-2020, 10:15 PM
I would go Southnarc, Amok or Redzone. MBC is simplified Filipino stuff. I recommend you reach out to Jackdog and ask him to put you in contact with someone in your area.

Adam
04-24-2020, 08:15 AM
Sometimes I watch IG clips or read forum posts and think about the non-weapons-interested people that just by pure universe chi end up in a BJJ school with Cecil, Craig, Paul Sharp, Shawn Lupka has become "that guy" at his academy. What an incredible resource to have local access to!

Short answer as has been said: if your kid's BJJ academy isn't interested in that world (even sniffing out other students that are as training partners), finding a good foundation via Craig etc. is probably a good place to start. I haven't taken EWO yet but when I get to a "knife class" that will 100% be it. Cecil's IABJJ class gave me some strong food for thought on the implementation of known fundamentals and concepts in a weapon-present environment as well.

I'm a BJJ quitter. I started training pre-ECQC because I had no idea what I was doing on the ground, zero. I just wasn't "bitten" by BJJ and that's on me. One big oof though was one night a few weeks after I took ECQC we drilled knife and gun disarms (that I think are part of the larger training curriculum) and all I could think the whole time was "no, no, no, no, god no." Not only were they ineffective in a non-consensual context, when they aren't effective, that can really only mean they are also dangerous for people to think they have an understanding of IMO.

Glad your kid is training though, that's a big start!

JohnVee
05-25-2020, 01:03 PM
I would also suggest EWO, but I would also add Chris Fry's Small Knife class. Now that he is a training director for a large group, he is not doing nearly as many open enrollment courses, but it is something to keep an eye on. He does a brilliant job of getting over concepts that actually can be put into immediate use. I have stolen a ton of things from Chris.

No personal experience, but Chris is a big fan of Tom Sotis' AMOK knife program, so based on his thoughts, I would look into that as well.

One bit of info I would strongly urge is to NOT spend much time in the beginning trying to learn the integration of weapons when you don't know the H2H side to start with. For some reason, everyone seems to want this in a hurry, but there needs to be minimal components that are functional before you can truly get anything by putting them together. Get some experience at grappling, and get a bit of understanding on how to use a blade (which fortunately is simple and straight forward for practical needs and does not take a long time) and then worry about putting them together. No one would tell someone who has never fired a pistol before to take a CQB/room clearing class for his "learning" of pistol work. We all know having a basic skill set of gun handling is a better use of time before you start trying to clear a house. The same goes for combatives integration. And honesty, I could argue that the combatives side (especially in regards to grappling) is far more complex than room clearing.

@mrpink has been trying to get me into AMOK for a while and says good things about it.

Oukaapie
05-25-2020, 10:03 PM
Sotis and the South African crew under Marc Human have very solid approaches. I only took a class with Tom but I did do some privates with Marc in Cape Town. For sure Marc's stuff has been thoroughly vetted.

1slow
05-25-2020, 11:41 PM
Sotis and the South African crew under Marc Human have very solid approaches. I only took a class with Tom but I did do some privates with Marc in Cape Town. For sure Marc's stuff has been thoroughly vetted.

Among other courses with Tom Sotis, I was in the Knife/Pistol class in VA that he brought Mark Human over for. I am much impressed with both gentlemen.

Pistol Pete 10
05-26-2020, 11:33 AM
Always have a gun.......................

PNWTO
06-02-2020, 06:55 PM
I’ve really enjoyed the Libre Fighting DVDs, it seems to be a pretty simple system. I have a few years in BJJ and some minor boxing experience so that definitely helped applying virtual lessons to a Bob dummy.

JohnO
06-02-2020, 08:18 PM
Sayoc Kali

https://sayoc.com/sayoc-kali-schools/

Warped Mindless
06-02-2020, 08:48 PM
Take boxing lessons.

Replace punching with stabbing and there ya go ;)

As for defending against a knife, pretty much all knife defense stuff is unrealistic if you have an aggressive persob trying to stab you. Use something to make space (such as a chair) and either beat them with it or use that space to get to your gun.

PNWTO
06-02-2020, 08:58 PM
Take boxing lessons.

Replace punching with stabbing and there ya go ;)

There a lot of truth in this. Just learning how to move and connect power through the hips and torso is crucial.

If I could roll with the Shiv Works PD in daily life here that would make me very happy at work.

As an aside the LE branch of my agency doesn’t care if I have a tomahawk in my work bag so there’s a massive temptation to revisit the FMA hawk stuff.

Mr Pink
06-03-2020, 12:06 AM
@mrpink has been trying to get me into AMOK for a while and says good things about it.I've done a bunch of knife stuff in the past, but I really like AMOK because because, much like BJJ, they test the techniques against resisting training partners. I got to take a class from Tom when he came to Virginia and then shortly after that subscribed to his videos, so I could practice at home. https://amok.global/videos/

Cecil Burch
06-03-2020, 11:18 AM
I've done a bunch of knife stuff in the past, but I really like AMOK because because, much like BJJ, they test the techniques against resisting training partners. I got to take a class from Tom when he came to Virginia and then shortly after that subscribed to his videos, so I could practice at home. https://amok.global/videos/


Where we in the Shivworks Collective has put the majority of our time and study is in the access and deployment of a blade (any weapon actually), especially at ranges where an entanglement is already happening, or there is a strong possibility it will happen. This was an area that was given almost no thought in the self-defense world (whether firearm or H2H oriented), so it was badly needed. We certainly spend time on the use of it deployed, and some time on it at range. Where AMOK shines IMO is the unattached range where the blade is already out or there is no real chance of the draw being impeded. As Mr Pink states above, they put a lot of time into going against resisting opponents at range. It is very good methodology. One of my seminar hosts spent time in Thailand doing days long private training sessions with Mr Sotis and he got a lot out of it.

marinedoc
06-03-2020, 11:28 AM
If you live where there is a reputable class teaching Kali, by definition, it is a Philippine martial art with emphasis of empty hand, stick and knife fighting. They don't solely concentrate on knives, but it is part of the evolving curriculum. Unlike Karate, Kali is not so much a sport but a more aggressive form of martial arts. I've been studying about a year and am just touching the surface. In the past I have studied many forms of Karate, Ninjutsu, and Judo. Kali has some correlation, but I always leave with more bruises after my hour there than even with Judo. We usually do a session of Kali and then an hour of JKD. Neither one really a sport and a lot of pads and personal protection worn to prevent serious injury. U tube has a lot of good examples of Kali.

Isaac
06-07-2020, 08:39 PM
Sweet, not to drift, but ive never had the opportunity to speak w an actual or former practitioner of ninjitsu, or JKD for that matter! As someone with experience, how would you characterize both?

PNWTO
06-08-2020, 11:29 PM
Sweet, not to drift, but ive never had the opportunity to speak w an actual or former practitioner of ninjitsu, or JKD for that matter! As someone with experience, how would you characterize both?

So, sample size of one, but I took advantage of an invite and attended four classes at a local dojo that marketed itself as both ninjitsu and taijutsu. They even offered a weekly bokken class.

Long story short it was a total shitshow and pretty cringey. A lot of over-theatrical kata and even the “sparring” portion was scripted LARPing.

I did the dive into some forums and Reddit and the above seems to be the normal experience if the student isn’t some die-hard weeaboo.

I think one would be much, much better off with some BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, and/or boxing; and, for the sake of this thread, some good mentorship about putting pointy things into bad people.

Isaac
06-09-2020, 08:13 AM
That’s pretty much what I expected. Just wanted to hear it :)