Mass Shooting in Canada

[Chance]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52346447):


A suspected gunman who dressed as a policeman killed at least 10 people, including a police officer, in Nova Scotia, Canadian police say.

The 12-hour rampage ended in a car chase and the attacker is also dead.

Residents in the rural town of Portapique had been advised to lock themselves indoors after the attack began on Saturday.

Police earlier said the suspect drove what appeared to be a police car.

The gunman shot people in several locations across Nova Scotia which means authorities are still trying to establish the final death toll, police said on Sunday.

[Chance]

The death toll has increased to 13. RCMP is saying the suspect may also have been driving a police car, although there's no word on how he got it.

[BaiHu]

https://youtu.be/pgOAJF4tqF0

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Mark D]

Reports of 16 dead, plus the attacker. Canada's worst active killer event.

Extremely sad.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I can see a wave of discussion on Canada's gun laws which might become unpleasant.

[Totem Polar]

Fucked up. I was sort of enjoying a reprieve from this stuff during Coronapalooza. I guess that’s that.

[Suvorov]

I can see a wave of discussion on Canada's gun laws which might become unpleasant.

The sun’s going to rise in the West. Good thing Trudeau is there to make sure it does.

[RJ]

Up to 16 now. How sad.

Asshole.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/portapique-shooting-nova-scotia-rcmp-canada

[blues]

Very sad. A real tragedy for all of Canada. Having worked with RCMP in the past, I feel for them as well.

[Screwball]

Canadian radio is saying 17... one noted was a RCMP constable.

I’m annoyed with my port due to it. Supervisor was supposedly running a guy with an M4 out to me... but found out the shooter was dead in route. Would have been nice to know what was up, since I was talking to an RCMP guy in an unmarked pickup an hour prior. Shooter supposedly had ties to the town our port is located.

[HCM]

Toll now reported at 19.

https://www.policeone.com

[Screwball]

Just heard the station report again... 17, including shooter.

Heard one of the town management talking about it... just like COVID-19, they cannot handle it.

They don’t know how many doors the shooter knocked on, so could still climb noticeably.

[Wendell]

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau asked the media to avoid mentioning the name of the assailant or showing his picture. “Do not give this person the gift of infamy,” he said.
https://www.policeone.com/mass-casualty/articles/gunman-kills-18-in-canadas-worst-mass-shooting-nSojKvWq6gqzhEKw/

[Casual Friday]

Just heard the station report again... 17, including shooter.

Heard one of the town management talking about it... just like COVID-19, they cannot handle it.

They don’t know how many doors the shooter knocked on, so could still climb noticeably.

Damn.

[JRB]

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau asked the media to avoid mentioning the name of the assailant or showing his picture. “Do not give this person the gift of infamy,” he said.
https://www.policeone.com/mass-casualty/articles/gunman-kills-18-in-canadas-worst-mass-shooting-nSojKvWq6gqzhEKw/

I never thought I'd agree with something that guy said, but 2020's had enough weird shit in it already, why not this too?

[Yung]

I think it would go a long way toward fixing the fixation on name games and demographic debates if people would focus more on analyzing the play-by-play of what happened.

[DC_P]

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau asked the media to avoid mentioning the name of the assailant or showing his picture. “Do not give this person the gift of infamy,” he said.
https://www.policeone.com/mass-casualty/articles/gunman-kills-18-in-canadas-worst-mass-shooting-nSojKvWq6gqzhEKw/

That same article went on to mention the person's name several times...

[Shoresy]

That same article went on to mention the person's name several times...

When in doubt, expect the worst behavior from the press. You won't often be wrong.

[Suvorov]

Am I the only person who finds it interesting that the has been no disclosure on what type of firearm was used?

[fatdog]

Am I the only person who finds it interesting that the has been no disclosure on what type of firearm was used?

No you are not.....I am wondering if it is something that does not fit the standard media/liberals mass shooting narrative....or if the guy owned it legally...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Word is he had prior assault charges and a no gun order but that's only what I hear; I have no link to offer anyone and can't swear to the above.

Just based on the manner of approach with the pulling over random cars, ordinarily I'd see that as a probable handgun. But who knows.

16 crime scenes as far as I know so far. Not sure how many had bodies. But at first blush I don't think it makes for a convenient case re: mass shooters/assault rifles.

My guess, though,is that not much information is out, not because the media isn't able to hype it, but because they aren't getting details from the RCMP.

[HCM]

Word is he had prior assault charges and a no gun order but that's only what I hear; I have no link to offer anyone and can't swear to the above.

Just based on the manner of approach with the pulling over random cars, ordinarily I'd see that as a probable handgun. But who knows.

16 crime scenes as far as I know so far. Not sure how many had bodies. But at first blush I don't think it makes for a convenient case re: mass shooters/assault rifles.

My guess, though,is that not much information is out, not because the media isn't able to hype it, but because they aren't getting details from the RCMP.

I wonder how much of the info lockdown is related to an internal inquiry on how he was able to mock up /clone an RCMP uniform and vehicle.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I would say between that and he death of a member, plus the failure to use the emergency broadcast setup in favour of just tweeting about it... yeah, they're probably feeling like this is going to throw a real spotlight on them and they're locking down.

I have mixed feelings about that.

[Suvorov]

If Trudeau is wanting to use this to ban EVIL ASSAULT GUNS and no such gun was used - it would propose a problem. Then again these days logic and reason are out the window.

[Chance]

The death toll has risen (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52376547) to 23.

[Snapshot]

The death toll is up to 23 now (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-death-toll-in-nova-scotia-mass-shooting-rises-to-23/). Still no details on firearm(s) involved.

The use of an authentic looking RCMP vehicle (so much so that RCMP were tweeting the unit number so people could distinguish the shooter's vehicle from the real ones), along with the shooter wearing a police uniform is pretty creepy, and I wonder how all this could be obtained without the RCMP at least noticing and perhaps allowing / accepting. I am not a police officer so I doubt it would be OK for me to drive around in a replica police cruiser, wearing a police uniform – why was he able to do this?

The shooter apparently bought the vehicle at auction, not sure about the other stuff he had. My bet is that going forward police vehicles, uniforms, accoutrements etc. will be the same as firearms - disposed of by destruction and not available to anyone else.

One aspect that will never be pursued effectively because... Canada ... is that none of the victims were able to defend themselves with a firearm.

[RJ]

I would say between that and he death of a member, plus the failure to use the emergency broadcast setup in favour of just tweeting about it... yeah, they're probably feeling like this is going to throw a real spotlight on them and they're locking down.

I have mixed feelings about that.

I hope the RCMP are not hiding anything. As horrible as this tragedy is, it would almost be worse if the facts were not exposed to the light of day. If somebody f'd up, the citizens of Canada deserve to know, and how we/they are going to reduce the loss of life in future.

I've been to Canada many times, as I am sure many of you have also. It is a wonderful place, filled with wonderful, big hearted people. These folks need to bury their dead and grieve for their loss. It must be unimaginable what they are going through.

[Baldanders]

The death toll is up to 23 now (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-death-toll-in-nova-scotia-mass-shooting-rises-to-23/). Still no details on firearm(s) involved.

The use of an authentic looking RCMP vehicle (so much so that RCMP were tweeting the unit number so people could distinguish the shooter's vehicle from the real ones), along with the shooter wearing a police uniform is pretty creepy, and I wonder how all this could be obtained without the RCMP at least noticing and perhaps allowing / accepting. I am not a police officer so I doubt it would be OK for me to drive around in a replica police cruiser, wearing a police uniform – why was he able to do this?

The shooter apparently bought the vehicle at auction, not sure about the other stuff he had. My bet is that going forward police vehicles, uniforms, accoutrements etc. will be the same as firearms - disposed of by destruction and not available to anyone else.

One aspect that will never be pursued effectively because... Canada ... is that none of the victims were able to defend themselves with a firearm.

It seems like with the tactics this guy used, any asshole with a single-shot shotgun could become a mass shooter.

One of the unintended consequences of weapons bans is a scary increase in "creativity."

[Trooper224]

I hope the RCMP are not hiding anything. As horrible as this tragedy is, it would almost be worse if the facts were not exposed to the light of day. If somebody f'd up, the citizens of Canada deserve to know, and how we/they are going to reduce the loss of life in future.

I've been to Canada many times, as I am sure many of you have also. It is a wonderful place, filled with wonderful, big hearted people. These folks need to bury their dead and grieve for their loss. It must be unimaginable what they are going through.

I love Canada, it's like Europe without the snooty attitude.

[OlongJohnson]

It seems like with the tactics this guy used, any asshole with a single-shot shotgun could become a mass shooter.

One of the unintended consequences of weapons bans is a scary increase in "creativity."

Mas has written about a 19th-century mass shooting where the perp used Uncle Joe's double-barrel shotgun and executed tactical reloads, firing one and reloading, so he always had one ready to go just by closing the gun. Walking around a city, that could still be very effective.

There was a school shooting a few years back near Houston where the kid used a shotgun and revolver, which I think I heard belonged to his grandfather. The media and politicians kinda leave that one out of the calls for assault weapon bans.

Countries where they really did take all the guns away still have mass killings with blades. Just as there were before there were guns. And others have killings with trucks. One of the worst school murders ever was with explosives.

People who want to kill will find a way, as long as people are made of meat and can be killed by inflicting tissue damage.

[Mas]

Mas has written about a 19th-century mass shooting where the perp used Uncle Joe's double-barrel shotgun and executed tactical reloads, firing one and reloading, so he always had one ready to go just by closing the gun. Walking around a city, that could still be very effective.

There was a school shooting a few years back near Houston where the kid used a shotgun and revolver, which I think I heard belonged to his grandfather. The media and politicians kinda leave that one out of the calls for assault weapon bans.

Countries where they really did take all the guns away still have mass killings with blades. Just as there were before there were guns. And others have killings with trucks. One of the worst school murders ever was with explosives.

People who want to kill will find a way, as long as people are made of meat and can be killed by inflicting tissue damage.

The Brunswick Massacre, 105 years ago: https://americanhandgunner.com/the-ayoob-files/the-brunswick-massacre/ .

[ST911]

The use of an authentic looking RCMP vehicle (so much so that RCMP were tweeting the unit number so people could distinguish the shooter's vehicle from the real ones), along with the shooter wearing a police uniform is pretty creepy, and I wonder how all this could be obtained without the RCMP at least noticing and perhaps allowing / accepting. I am not a police officer so I doubt it would be OK for me to drive around in a replica police cruiser, wearing a police uniform – why was he able to do this?

The shooter apparently bought the vehicle at auction, not sure about the other stuff he had. My bet is that going forward police vehicles, uniforms, accoutrements etc. will be the same as firearms - disposed of by destruction and not available to anyone else.

I'm not at all surprised that this occurred as it did, only that it took this long to see it.

[Wendell]

RCMP declined to say whether the murder weapons were classified as prohibited (https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/classes-firearms#prohib), restricted (https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/classes-firearms#restrict) or non-restricted (https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/classes-firearms#nr), or whether the spree killer had a valid firearms licence (https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/licensing).
https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/as-gun-control-debate-looms-no-answers-yet-on-what-firearms-were-used-in-nova-scotia-mass-killing

[Wendell]

You might be interested in watching 23:51 - 25:58:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJQdvb0rgls

[idahojess]

No emergency alert style cell phone notification was made -- even though one had been sent out the previous week telling people to remain indoors.


Nova Scotia has used the system for other emergencies.

At 11 a.m. on April 10, a siren screamed out of most Nova Scotians’ cellphones as an emergency alert told them to avoid gathering during the long Easter weekend that was beginning.

“COVID-19 is deadly. Stop the spread now. STAY HOME. Only leave for essential groceries, prescriptions or medical appointments. Ignoring public health direction endangers lives. STAY HOME. Protect yourself and others,” the message read.



https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/officials-cant-explain-why-emergency-alert-didnt-go-out-as-gunman-tore-through-nova-scotia/ar-BB12WLUn


The event apparently took place over 12 hours.

I've turned most of those alerts off on my phone because I've gotten some notifications that didn't seem like true emergencies (i.e. freezing rain.). Although I did have one national emergency alert from the national weather service that woke me up at 2 am a couple of months ago warning about flash flooding upstream. Good to know. I left that setting turned on.

[Rosco Benson]

The use of an authentic looking RCMP vehicle (so much so that RCMP were tweeting the unit number so people could distinguish the shooter's vehicle from the real ones), along with the shooter wearing a police uniform is pretty creepy, and I wonder how all this could be obtained without the RCMP at least noticing and perhaps allowing / accepting. I am not a police officer so I doubt it would be OK for me to drive around in a replica police cruiser, wearing a police uniform – why was he able to do this?

The shooter apparently bought the vehicle at auction, not sure about the other stuff he had. My bet is that going forward police vehicles, uniforms, accoutrements etc. will be the same as firearms - disposed of by destruction and not available to anyone else.



There's a guy in my neighborhood who restores Crown Vics to look like police cruisers. I understand he sells or rents them to independent filmmakers. They are indistinguishable from normal cruisers. He also restores Dodges into General Lee's. Odd fellow. Huge newer house, with a HUGE garage on the shittiest street in the neighborhood. He has a limousine service as well. Seems fishy to me. He also has a store nearby that deals in older action figures and movie tie-in toys.

As far as disposing of uniforms and such, a few years ago I was on light duty, I had smashed my right thumb, almost severing it...open fracture, all that jazz. They put me on light duty. I had a splint and dressing on my thumb that made it about the size of a turkey drumstick. During that time, I spent several days cutting insignia off of uniforms that were set to be discarded.....with right-handed scissors, using my left hand. Big fun.

Rosco

[Snapshot]

In Canada it is an offense (http://criminalnotebook.ca/index.php/Personating_a_Peace_Officer_(Offence))to "personate a police officer" with aggravating circumstances if the personation is associated with another offense.

I thought of the film industry which also has machine guns, grenade launchers, armoured vehicles and other esoteric gear for the purpose of creating entertainment. I can't find it but presumably there is an exemption that allows this context.

But outside of entertainment marked police and other emergency vehicles and uniforms serve (among other purposes) to indicate the agency / authority that is displaying them, with the implication that they are operating on official business which affords them priority and (usually) trust that they do not intend to attack us.

Having Joe Schmoe (not making a movie or similar) driving around in a replica police vehicle wearing an authentic police uniform seems like something that is not OK. Obviously this guy was doing things that were a lot more not OK, I just can't help but wonder how it got to the point that he was able to do the impersonation that (presumably) was ongoing for a while before he started shooting.

Sadly none of this does anything to help the victims or their families, but I think it needs some attention to understand what happened and maybe reduce the chances of it happening again.

[Borderland]

I'm not at all surprised that this occurred as it did, only that it took this long to see it.

Magnum Force and T2 used the cop camouflage thing. Probably a few more movies that I don't know about. My condolences to the victims families. Strange times we live in.

[MichaelD]

Magnum Force and T2 used the cop camouflage thing. Probably a few more movies that I don't know about. My condolences to the victims families. Strange times we live in.Die Hard with a Vengeance, too.

[whomever]

"I thought of the film industry which also has machine guns, grenade launchers, armoured vehicles and other esoteric gear for the purpose of creating entertainment. I can't find it but presumably there is an exemption that allows this context."

My sense is that the crime is impersonating an officer, not just possessing the uniform. It is probably locale specific. (ETA: speaking of the U.S., dunno squat about Canada)

As a case in point, some tears ago the Seattle paper did a long human interest type story on the family owned business that had been providing local police and fire uniforms for three generations. Lots of fun trivia - sap pockets had been on the way out, but revived as a place for cell phones, etc (from memory, and it's been a while). Toward the end, the reporter asked about ne'er do wells trying to get uniforms, and the exchange went something like:

Reporter: So, you only sell to officers?
Owner: We only sell to people with legit uses ... if we get bad vibes, we send 'em packing.
R: Well, what would a legit use be other than an officer?
O: Well, for example, we get a lot of strippers ... we do a special stripper package with velcro in the seams so one yank and it's off...

I'm not sure that outlawing police-ish cars and uniforms would work all that well. For cars, with a little paint you can make an ordinary Crown Vic (or whatever the current models are) look a lot like a police car - good enough, I think, that a homeowner glancing out the window would be taken in.

Similarly, especially in the U.S., there are so may jurisdictions and variations with dissimilar uniforms I think a motivated crook is liable to be able to cobble something together that would pass a glance inspection by the average homeowner, at least long enough to get them to open the door.

(as an aside, I wonder how many houses you could pull that on in the typical rural U.S. before someone shoots back)

[Balisong]

Magnum Force and T2 used the cop camouflage thing. Probably a few more movies that I don't know about. My condolences to the victims families. Strange times we live in.

To be fair, in Magnum Force they actually were cops.

[Borderland]

To be fair, in Magnum Force they actually were cops.

That was a strange twist, wasn't it? Self appointed assignation squad. Another good one is Mulholland Falls. LA special ops cops cleaning things up, unofficially.

Nothing surprises me anymore. The strangest movie plots have become real life for sure.

[Balisong]

That was a strange twist, wasn't it? Self appointed assignation squad. Another good one is Mulholland Falls. LA special ops cops cleaning things up, unofficially.

Nothing surprises me anymore. The strangest movie plots have become real life for sure.

That reminds me, I still haven't gotten around to seeing Mulholland Falls. Also Dark Blue and Street Kings have cops-as-vigilantes type themes for anyone interested. Ok, no more derail from me in this thread, my apologies.

[Kommander`]

The lax uniform standards of many departments makes this problem even worse. About 15 years ago while living in the Phoenix metro area I was greeted at my door by two plain clothes narcs who frankly were pushing the believably envelope for police dress. One was a female in her 20's who wore tight jeans, a tight babydoll shirt, sneakers, and a hilariously oversized 90's style police tac vest complete with chattering police radio. The male was in his late 30's or early 40's and had the whole biker look going on with a long goatee, wallet chain, and Bad Boys necklace badge. No weapons were visible, though the males shirt was baggy enough to conceal one.

They had apparently received reports that my roommates and I were producing and selling drugs out of the house. As we weren't, and I was a bit naive at the time, I let them in for a cursory search. I managed to not make any comments about bring your daughter to work day as the entered and proceeded to TURN THEIR BACKS ON ME AT THE SAME TIME! At the time I was doing a bit of bail enforcement and even my amateur self knew what a bad idea it was to not keep eyes on a potential subject.

They of course found nothing but the incident left me seriously doubting the capabilities of the department in question. 15 years later the proliferation of tactical pants and polos as a law enforcement uniform makes impersonating an officer even easier. The non patrol officers in my town wear just khaki tactical pants and black polos, very easy for anyone to buy from a place like LAPG. Add a few accessories and proper bearing and 90% of the population could not tell a real cop from a fake one.

[Le Français]

Similarly, especially in the U.S., there are so may jurisdictions and variations with dissimilar uniforms I think a motivated crook is liable to be able to cobble something together that would pass a glance inspection by the average homeowner, at least long enough to get them to open the door.


I think this is a good point. Even within one state, or one part of a state, the US has a dizzying variety of different LE agencies and uniforms (or lack thereof). I’ve seen significantly mismatched outfits among patrol officers from the same agency, assigned to the same shift.

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn’t be better to have a nationwide standard, from the perspective of making things less confusing for everyone. There would be downsides, and it will never happen due to customs/history/preferences/etc.


15 years later the proliferation of tactical pants and polos as a law enforcement uniform makes impersonating an officer even easier. The non patrol officers in my town wear just khaki tactical pants and black polos, very easy for anyone to buy from a place like LAPG. Add a few accessories and proper bearing and 90% of the population could not tell a real cop from a fake one.

It’s not that hard for a crook to pay attention to what the cops in a given area are wearing, and buy a uniform that looks about right. Someone who would buy a black polo and cargo pants, but can’t be bothered to buy a navy polyester uniform, for example, doesn’t sound terribly dedicated.

[peterb]

My sense is that the crime is impersonating an officer, not just possessing the uniform. It is probably locale specific. (ETA: speaking of the U.S., dunno squat about Canada)

I remember asking about that years ago and being told there was a legal distinction between "looking like one" and "pretending to be one". So in theory it's fine to drive a restored cruiser in a parade in uniform, but not to act as if you have any law enforcement authority. i suspect the laws and interpretations vary widely.

Back to the incident: I think of all the discussions here about assessment, and not knowing the whole story behind what you walk into.... Seeing a "police officer" shooting people would make it very difficult to know how to intervene.

[Wendell]

That was a strange twist, wasn't it? Self appointed assignation squad. Another good one is Mulholland Falls. LA special ops cops cleaning things up, unofficially...

And L.A. Confidential (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/L.A._Confidential), too.

[Wendell]

There is one tiny little pertinent detail for which I am very thankful:

Chief Supt. Chris Leather said Wednesday that "we have a fairly good idea that, in Canada at least, he didn't have a firearms acquisition certificate." It is illegal to own a gun without the proper licence, which federal legislation formally refers to as a possession and acquisition licence. Leather later said that it's now a key part of the investigation to understand how Gabriel Wortman obtained his weapons.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/police-have-good-idea-guns-used-in-n-s-mass-shooting-were-not-licensed-1.4908168

The RCMP say Wortman acted alone and did not possess any licences for firearms in Canada.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/nova-scotia-shooting-manhunt-details-1.5542025

[Trigger]

There is one tiny little pertinent detail for which I am very thankful:

Chief Supt. Chris Leather said Wednesday that "we have a fairly good idea that, in Canada at least, he didn't have a firearms acquisition certificate." It is illegal to own a gun without the proper licence, which federal legislation formally refers to as a possession and acquisition licence. Leather later said that it's now a key part of the investigation to understand how Gabriel Wortman obtained his weapons.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/police-have-good-idea-guns-used-in-n-s-mass-shooting-were-not-licensed-1.4908168

The RCMP say Wortman acted alone and did not possess any licences for firearms in Canada.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/nova-scotia-shooting-manhunt-details-1.5542025

So the RCMP admitted the effectiveness of those certificates at preventing crime is . . . Zero. Nice.

[Snapshot]

So the RCMP admitted the effectiveness of those certificates at preventing crime is . . . Zero. Nice.

Exactly so. However, this fact may also help to mitigate the inevitable proposals for banning whatever firearm(s) may have been involved on the basis that since he wasn't licensed to have _any_ firearms the real issue is not any particular firearm but his behaviour.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The argument will be that the existence of legal guns in the population leads to some of them bleeding into crime. IIRC, from an American Society of Criminology report, in the USA, if a new gun end up in crime and only had one legit owner and was identified in a crime, the average time to crime was 10 years (the owner could use for crime, it could be lost or stolen). If the gun was legitimately sold to someone, from that point the time to crime on the average time to crime was 5 years. Thus, the argument was that the existence of legal guns will lead some of them to be used in crime.

Thus, get rid of all guns or have more draconian rules (such as being locked up at sports clubs). A friend of mine, Gary Mauser (a Canadian scholar) has argued that Canadians use guns for SD at a significant rate.


Journal of Criminal Justice
Volume 24, Issue 5, 1996, Pages 393-406

Armed self-defense: The Canadian case

Abstract

There is a vigorous debate over the frequency with which private citizens resort to the use of firearms for self-defense. No information has been previously available about how often firearms are used defensively outside of the United States. This article estimates the frequency with which firearms are used for self-protection by analyzing three telephone surveys of the general public in Canada and a fourth survey of the general public in the United States. Canadians report using firearms to protect themselves between 60,000 and 80,000 times per year from dangerous people or animals. More importantly, between 19,000 and 37,500 of these incidents involve defense against human threats. The results of the American survey confirm estimates about the frequency of firearms used for self-protection in the United States (Kleck, 1988, 1991). In comparison with the number of households with firearms, the frequency with which Canadians use firearms to defend themselves against human threats is somewhat less than that of Americans. Policymakers in both the United States and in Canada should be aware the private ownership of firearms has benefits as well as costs for society. Firearm bans may cost more lives than they save.

There was a vigorous debate with Canadian antigun scholars denouncing Gary. What else is new? You can use google scholar to see that if you wish.

Gary and I shot together at various conferences and we have fun stories but that's for another thread.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Gary is a bit of a celebrity in my world. His research is always interesting; he's a true asset to the Canadian gun community.

[Wendell]

The argument will be that the existence of legal guns in the population leads to some of them bleeding into crime...

Today, in response to a question from CBC's Paul Withers, RCMP Superintendent Darren Campbell said that, of the firearms recovered, one had been traced "to Canada", and the remaining weapons "that have been recovered" were believed to been "obtained in the United States".

The question starts at about 1:05:36.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHlc1EXJhho

[Wendell]

On Friday, a group of law professors at Dalhousie University wrote a letter to Nova Scotia Premier Stephen McNeil calling for a public inquiry. “In a modern democracy committed to state accountability, an internal investigation will not suffice. Independence, impartiality and transparency are essential components of maintaining public confidence in the administration of justice. Only a public inquiry can satisfy these requirements,” the letter says. “The families of the victims, Nova Scotians and Canadians deserve a transparent, impartial and independent assessment of why and how this incident occurred.”
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia-mass-shooting-new-information-about-murder-rampage-delayed-by-government-lawyers-451139/

[Wendell]

The 40-page document says the killer had two semi-automatic rifles and three pistols in the stolen vehicle he was driving when he was fatally shot by the RCMP in Enfield. One of the rifles and two of the pistols had live rounds in the chambers and one of the pistols was cocked and the safety was off. One of the pistols, a 9-mm Smith and Wesson, belonged to RCMP Const. Heidi Stevenson, who was among the killer’s 22 victims, along with three other people who were shot and wounded.
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/provincial/search-warrant-details-portapique-killers-weapons-describes-controlling-and-paranoid-behaviour-451518/

[Wendell]

A forestry worker for more than 30 years, Leon Joudrey says he only feels safe in the woods after the weekend of April 18, when a gunman went on a killing spree, claiming the lives of 22 people in several Nova Scotia communities. A good friend of Greg and Jamie Blair -- who were among the 22 victims -- Joudrey spent part of the evening at their home the night of April 18. He came home around 10 p.m. and remembers hearing gunshots shortly after, but says he didn’t think much of it, as it’s fairly common to hear that sound in the rural community. An early riser, Joudrey got up around 3:30 a.m. on April 19 to walk his dogs. That’s when he saw a message on his phone about fires in the area. “I went for a drive. It’s only a few hundred yards out to Portapique Road … seen a little bit of flame and a SWAT vehicle and I knew it was Gabriel’s house,” recalls Joudrey. “I figured they were there looking for him because I knew what he was like.” Unnerved by the fire and police presence, Joudrey returned to his home and grabbed his shotgun. “Got my shotgun, with my phone, went in my bedroom with my dogs, because if SWAT’s around, ERT (Emergency Response Team), you stay in your house.” He stayed there until early the next morning, when he heard someone pounding on his door. It was Wortman’s girlfriend, who had just spent hours hiding from her boyfriend in the woods. “She came in, told me stuff went on, just that he went crazy, is what she said,” recalls Joudrey. “She couldn’t call 911. I called 911. They came, three vehicles, about six of them with SWAT, guns, and all hell broke loose then.”
https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/i-can-t-go-back-haunted-by-mass-shooting-man-who-sheltered-gunman-s-girlfriend-scared-to-go-home-1.4945493


As for why the shooter didn’t come to his house, Joudrey says he suspects it’s because Wortman knew he was a hunter who had guns in his home. “He knew I had firearms, which are legal of course, but he knew I was confrontational and I might interrupt his plan. That’s the only thing I can think of.”

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/i-can-t-go-back-haunted-by-mass-shooting-man-who-sheltered-gunman-s-girlfriend-scared-to-go-home-1.4945493

[Wendell]

The Nova Scotia government, not the federal government, is ultimately responsible for policing in the province and has a duty to take the lead in calls for a public inquiry into last month’s mass shooting, says Dr. John Butt, the province’s former medical examiner. While the RCMP is a federal agency, the province contracts the RCMP to provide policing in the province. For that reason, the RMCP in Nova Scotia fall largely under provincial jurisdiction, said Butt. That, and policing in the province, also fall under the responsibility of Justice Minister Mark Furey. Meanwhile, Premier Stephen McNeil suggested the province does not have the authority to launch an inquiry into the unprecedented event that began in Portapique. He has maintained that it should be led by the federal government. Several experts, including more than 30 law professors at Dalhousie University, have called on the province to commit to a full independent inquiry since the tragedy played out last month. Butt said ultimately the province has no choice but to commit to one.
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/provincial/former-ns-medical-examiner-calls-for-public-inquiry-into-mass-shooting-452634/

[Wendell]

Police agencies across Nova Scotia were warned in May 2011 that a denturist named Gabriel Wortman had a stash of guns and said he wanted "to kill a cop," according to records newly obtained by CBC News. But the Nova Scotia RCMP can't say what, if anything, was done with the tip about the man who police believe went on to kill 22 people, including an RCMP officer, in rural Nova Scotia in April. The 2011 warning came after an unnamed source approached Truro Police Cpl. Greg Densmore with detailed information about where Wortman kept his guns, including that he may have been transporting a handgun between his home in Dartmouth and his cottage in Portapique, N.S. CBC News obtained a copy of Densmore's report from the Truro Police Service through an access-to-information request. Sections are redacted, but it shows the bulletin was distributed through the Criminal Intelligence Service of Nova Scotia, a network of policing agencies that share information. There appear to be contradictions around who was responsible for acting on the tip. Wortman's cottage in Portapique is in RCMP territory, but his principal residence in Dartmouth was not in RCMP jurisdiction, said Cpl. Jennifer Clarke, spokesperson for the Nova Scotia RCMP. She doesn't know if anyone from the RCMP ever followed up on the concerns. "I don't know what was done or what wasn't done at the time," she told CBC News. The Halifax Regional Police say they investigated the tip at the time and even interviewed some of Wortman's relatives. Investigators determined that any information about weapons was related to Wortman's cottage and not his property in Dartmouth. They sent their findings to the RCMP, according to Const. John MacLeod, a spokesperson for the Halifax Regional Police. But Clarke said that as the manhunt for the gunman began in Portapique late on April 18, the RCMP didn't have the information in the 2011 bulletin at their disposal as it had been purged from their records. She said the force typically keeps such warnings for only two years. When asked whether that information could have been helpful to officers who responded to the shooting, Clarke said it was difficult to say. The bulletin came to light April 19 when an officer from the Amherst Police Service recognized Wortman's name and dug up the 2011 notice in his email. He shared the information with his supervisor, who passed it on to the RCMP, according to Amherst Police Chief Dwayne Pike. Truro Police Chief Dave MacNeil said one of his officers also recovered the nine-year-old document about a week later, after it was brought to their attention. It's the latest indication that there were warning signs years in advance that Wortman was dangerous. "This is the largest mass [shooting] in Canada's history, and it's a piece of the story," MacNeil said in an interview. "What piece that plays, I don't know. I'm not at liberty to speculate on that, but it's information that should be shared with the public."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/ns-gunman-2011-warning-1.5589277

[Wendell]

Colchester County councillor Tom Taggart says he has lost all faith in the RCMP brass following the latest revelation of a warning issued in 2011 about the gunman who recently went on a killing rampage in Nova Scotia that was never properly followed up. Taggart said he finds that response entirely unacceptable. Taggart said he believes there is something happening within the bureaucracy of the force “that’s out of control. That answers to nobody. That’s pretty harsh but I’m not happy here,” he said. “I’ve lost faith … I’m fed up with it.” Mike Gregory a fellow Colchester County councillor and retired RCMP member who spent 25 and a half years in the force said he too questions how such information could just go by the wayside. “If this guy was living in my area, and a bulletin came out like that in 2011, and said that this guy should be on the radar because he’s a police hater and he wants to kill a policeman, boy, if he’s still living in my area, you are not going to let that thing drop. You’re going to make sure that every police officer that gets transferred to this detachment is going to know, ‘this guy here, this is what he drives and he’s a police hater’,” Gregory said. “Just to let it drop and take it off the radar after two years, my god almighty.” Paul Palango is a former national editor of the Globe and Mail who was in charge “of all investigative reporting” and who has written three books on the RCMP. Palango said he believes the Mountie’s are hiding “explosive” information relating to the gunman’s case. He said that opinion was also expressed in a recent confidential telephone call he received suggesting a secret relationship between police and the gunman. “And this person was quite upset, saying they are trying to cover something up which is very explosive,” Palango said. “What is suggests to me, is, that this may be the tip of the iceberg leading into the relationship between (the gunman) and the police, particularly the RCMP, and that he was somehow … it seems farfetched, but was he a confidential informant? “It’s a reasonable question because there’s hardly any other way to explain all the anomalies in the story. Which are, his flagrant police cars, the other flagrant things he was doing and getting away with, with his guns, etc. I mean, there have been stories about him being involved in cigarette smuggling and possibility the killing of someone in the United States. What was going on? What was the police relationship?” Palango said. “To my mind, having spent many years looking at policing and having written many, many stories, the logic of this story is that there is a hidden relationship here somewhere.” Provincial RCMP spokeswoman Cpl. Jennifer Clarke said she could not offer any comment on that “speculation.” “I’m not going to be able to comment on whether someone was a coded informant. That’s not something that I would be able to speak about,” she said. “We understand people’s need for knowledge, people’s need to understand this. We’re doing the same thing. We’re doing everything we can to understand what happened and why. And when we’re able to release more we certainly will. But right now we can’t.”
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/local/what-went-wrong-questions-arise-over-police-handling-of-nine-year-old-information-in-nova-scotia-mass-shooter-case-455725/

[Wendell]

"I'm angry more than anything. I'm angry that 22 people lost their lives and I really, truly believe that this could have been prevented," said Ryan Farrington, whose mother and stepfather, Dawn Madsen and Frank Gulenchyn, were killed in the April 18-19 massacre. Farrington said there are still a lot of unanswered questions about the tragedy, as well as the 2011 tip. He said he was told by RCMP that the Truro police had information that could have prevented the massacre, but that it wasn't shared with them. The Truro Police Service said they never had any direct dealings with Wortman, who lived outside their coverage area, but shared all the information available nine years ago with other police agencies because of how serious it was. The documents obtained by CBC through access to information show that one day after the 2011 bulletin, someone at the RCMP followed up with Cpl. Greg Densmore, the Truro officer who wrote the officer safety bulletin. In that exchange Densmore passed along details about the truck and jeep Wortman is believed to have used to drive between Dartmouth and Portapique. "There's just so much we need to know and we're not getting answers," Farrington said. He hopes the federal government calls a public inquiry that would address questions such as what the RCMP knew and when, how Wortman was able to bring in weapons illegally across the Canada-U.S. border, how he was able to get a police uniform and outfit his vehicle to look like an RCMP cruiser.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/2011-bulletin-nova-scotia-gunman-victims-son-1.5590412

[Totem Polar]

This article is starting to get legs:

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-nova-scotia-shooter-case-has-hallmarks-of-an-undercover-operation/

”The withdrawal of $475,000 in cash by the man who killed 22 Nova Scotians in April matches the method the RCMP uses to send money to confidential informants and agents, sources say.

... Sources in both banking and the RCMP say the transaction is consistent with how the RCMP funnels money to its confidential informants and agents, and is not an option available to private banking customers.”

[Grey]

This article is starting to get legs:

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-nova-scotia-shooter-case-has-hallmarks-of-an-undercover-operation/

”The withdrawal of $475,000 in cash by the man who killed 22 Nova Scotians in April matches the method the RCMP uses to send money to confidential informants and agents, sources say.

... Sources in both banking and the RCMP say the transaction is consistent with how the RCMP funnels money to its confidential informants and agents, and is not an option available to private banking customers.”

So... what does this mean? I understand the article is tying him to the RCMP based upon methods used to transfer and withdraw funds but what are the down stream implications of this?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

So... what does this mean? I understand the article is tying him to the RCMP based upon methods used to transfer and withdraw funds but what are the down stream implications of this?

If I had to sum it up in an admittedly conjectural sentence, it would be something like this:

The guy probably had familial ties to organized crime and the RCMP figured they could use him to build a big case so they gave him half a million bucks and ignored his domestic violence issues and all the warnings that he was crazy and amassing a stockpile of illegal guns through his criminal connections because it would have tanked the case they were building, and he took that money and built on his police connections to help him plan and execute a killing spree which included not only the second worst mass shooting we've had but also a series of even worse murders in which people were burned alive, and the cover-up of this is likely to be extensive because the warning signs were obvious.

The size of the payout suggests to me that there is even more at play here than just building a case. By Canadian standards that's huge money.

[Grey]

If I had to sum it up in an admittedly conjectural sentence, it would be something like this:

The guy probably had familial ties to organized crime and the RCMP figured they could use him to build a big case so they gave him half a million bucks and ignored his domestic violence issues and all the warnings that he was crazy and amassing a stockpile of illegal guns through his criminal connections because it would have tanked the case they were building, and he took that money and built on his police connections to help him plan and execute a killing spree which included not only the second worst mass shooting we've had but also a series of even worse murders in which people were burned alive, and the cover-up of this is likely to be extensive because the warning signs were obvious.

The size of the payout suggests to me that there is even more at play here than just building a case. By Canadian standards that's huge money.

Thanks for the response, I wasn't sure if we were going to go down some deep government activity to get on gun control through a mass shooting hole...

[Borderland]

So... what does this mean? I understand the article is tying him to the RCMP based upon methods used to transfer and withdraw funds but what are the down stream implications of this?

Budget cuts.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

No, like most things, I think the best explanation is a combination of organizational inertia - I believe the local unit had only recently taken over handling RCMP agents, so there was probably an intel lag, assuming the speculation laid out here is in fact true - and general incompetence, which is always a huge factor in, I don't know, life.

The guy clearly did have a lot of connections to organized crime and police, but then it's hard to say what that means in a small town in Nova Scotia. I think the main thing is that he was super weird, violent, and obsessed with the police, and nobody did anything about it even though I don't think it was any secret. Whether the local cops had actionable stuff, though, I have no idea; that's sort of my guess about intel lag. I bet there was more known at a higher level, but it didn't make it down to the men and women actually tasked with dealing with street-level problems. I have no doubt that the local street cops would have picked him up for assault or uttering threats or anything they could prove he did, but the police don't lay charges here, they just recommend them to the crown prosecutor. If there was a breakdown in that system, who knows where it happened. I bet not in the beat cops, though.

Just my instinct on this, though. I don't have any information beyond what's available in the mainstream press. It's geographically about as far removed from me as Boise is from Jacksonville and maybe equally culturally different, too.

[Wendell]

Truro Police Service chief Dave MacNeil said the range was booked in early January by an outside police agency for three days of training between April 19, 20 and 21. “We would agree they probably shouldn’t have taken the booking but someone didn’t think (about the April anniversary dates), and the range was booked on the basis that those dates were open," he said. "In hindsight, whoever called should have known that was one of the days you shouldn’t call to book the range. But it was booked, unfortunately.” “In hindsight, whoever called should have known that that was one of the days you shouldn’t call to book the range. But it was booked, unfortunately. “Someone didn’t pick up on them, which regrettably they should have. As a police service, we’re very regrettable that that happened and we’ve taken steps to address that by blacking those dates off on a go forward, so nobody will be on the range for the 18th and 19th." Truro Mayor Bill Mills, when contacted about the incident, said that is precisely what will happen going forward. “Certainly, apologies are in order and, as I said, that will never be repeated again,” said Mills, who added that the dates of April 18 and 19 will be blocked off "perpetually" for future activity at the Truro police shooting range.
https://www.saltwire.com/nova-scotia/news/truro-womans-concern-leads-to-shooting-range-shutdown-during-future-portapique-anniversaries-100579142/

[Coyotesfan97]

If I lived there I’d be happy the cops were training there. That means a lot of them in the area.

[Caballoflaco]

Truro Police Service chief Dave MacNeil said the range was booked in early January by an outside police agency for three days of training between April 19, 20 and 21. “We would agree they probably shouldn’t have taken the booking but someone didn’t think (about the April anniversary dates), and the range was booked on the basis that those dates were open," he said. "In hindsight, whoever called should have known that was one of the days you shouldn’t call to book the range. But it was booked, unfortunately.” “In hindsight, whoever called should have known that that was one of the days you shouldn’t call to book the range. But it was booked, unfortunately. “Someone didn’t pick up on them, which regrettably they should have. As a police service, we’re very regrettable that that happened and we’ve taken steps to address that by blacking those dates off on a go forward, so nobody will be on the range for the 18th and 19th." Truro Mayor Bill Mills, when contacted about the incident, said that is precisely what will happen going forward. “Certainly, apologies are in order and, as I said, that will never be repeated again,” said Mills, who added that the dates of April 18 and 19 will be blocked off "perpetually" for future activity at the Truro police shooting range.
https://www.saltwire.com/nova-scotia/news/truro-womans-concern-leads-to-shooting-range-shutdown-during-future-portapique-anniversaries-100579142/

Oh, Canada what has become of a once rugged folk who settled a brutal frontier and and weren’t afraid to occasionally help make war on those rebellious scoundrels on their southern border. If only you could harness the power of your ancestors’ spinning in their graves you would have a limitless supply of green energy.

[Wendell]

Mounties will investigate "the source of the recordings and any related offences that may have occurred with respect to unauthorized release, possession and subsequent publishing," Asst. Commissioner Lee Bergerman, who heads up the Nova Scotia RCMP, said in a written statement. "Although we would not generally comment on matters that are the subject of a public inquiry and ongoing litigation, given the heartbreaking effect on victims’ families and on our employees, we are publicly condemning the publication of the audio recordings," Bergerman said.
https://www.saltwire.com/halifax/news/mounties-knew-ns-mass-killers-identity-and-that-he-was-driving-fake-cop-car-early-on-100595734/

[Stephanie B]

Mounties will investigate "the source of the recordings and any related offences that may have occurred with respect to unauthorized release, possession and subsequent publishing," Asst. Commissioner Lee Bergerman, who heads up the Nova Scotia RCMP, said in a written statement. "Although we would not generally comment on matters that are the subject of a public inquiry and ongoing litigation, given the heartbreaking effect on victims’ families and on our employees, we are publicly condemning the publication of the audio recordings," Bergerman said.
https://www.saltwire.com/halifax/news/mounties-knew-ns-mass-killers-identity-and-that-he-was-driving-fake-cop-car-early-on-100595734/

So, they’re embarrassed and now they want to hang somebody for making them look bad.

Same shit, different country.

[Snapshot]

Could it be that "they" are trying to make it about leaks to distract from the incompetence demonstrated over the course of many hours of the rampage, not to mention RCMP (and possibly other .ca) knowledge of the shooter?

In Canada "self defense" is not a legitimate purpose for regular people owning firearms, and we don't have anything like the 2A.

But fiascos like this clearly demonstrate that these are shortcomings and mistakes, not virtues of a supposedly (and mostly) civilized society.

[Wendell]

The RCMP is reviewing its decision to appoint the husbands of two senior officers to the team tasked with co-ordinating the force’s response to the public inquiry investigating the killing spree that left 22 people dead in April 2020. The inquiry will examine the actions of the RCMP and other police services on the weekend of the shootings, including the force’s response to the shootings, its communication with the public, and its past interactions with the gunman. The two men — Mike Butcher and Chief Supt. John Robin — are married to RCMP Assistant Commissioner Lee Bergerman and Chief Supt. Janis Gray, respectively. Bergerman is the commander of all Nova Scotia RCMP members. Wayne MacKay, a professor emeritus at Dalhousie University’s Schulich School of Law, said the appearance of a conflict in this case could be harmful to the RCMP and the commission. MacKay said the RCMP needs to replace Butcher and Robin. The appointments and the questions of conflict were first reported by Frank Magazine in Halifax.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7948753/legal-expert-rcmp-husbands-top-officers-public-inquiry-team/

[Wendell]

The RCMP’s top commanding officer in Nova Scotia will retire less than three weeks before public hearings into the deadliest killing spree in modern Canadian history are set to begin. Assistant Commissioner Lee Bergerman announced her decision to retire internally to the Nova Scotia RCMP, a spokesperson for the force told Global News on Tuesday. No public announcement was made by either the Mounties or Bergerman. Her retirement takes effect Oct. 8, and public hearings into the killing spree that left 22 people dead begin Oct. 26. RCMP spokesperson Cpl. Chris Marshall said he can’t say whether Bergerman will participate in the inquiry.
https://globalnews.ca/news/8023813/nova-scotias-top-rcmp-officer-retiring-days-before-public-hearings-into-killing-spree-set-to-begin/