DFM/X - DryFireMag combined with MantisX

[DMF13]

Back in October I ordered a Glock 17R, and here we are in April, and the FFL has still not received it from Glock. According to the FFL, while individual LE orders are allowed, as opposed to the old policy of agency purchases only, they will not produce individual pistols, so I'm stuck waiting until they have another large order, and add in some pistols to for individual purchases.

I've tried the SIRT, and IMO it's a neat idea, but sucks in execution: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38927-I-despise-the-SIRT-and-I-m-looking-for-an-alternative&highlight=SIRT I have been told the M&P version is much better, but I don't have access to one, and I'm unwilling to pay to try it out, and my duty gun is a Glock 19.

Getting frustrated with other Glock dry fire methods (racking the slide, prep only, dead trigger), and not wanting to wait any longer for the 17R, especially since I can't do any live fire during the social distancing, I once again looked at getting the Dry Fire Mag.

They just released a version with the MantisX built in to the mag, called the DFM/X. So I ordered one, and until the 17R arrives (if ever), I'm going to start working on dry fire using DFM/X. While not perfect, the MantisX appeals to my engineering background, of objective measurement of performance. Something that isn't really there with dry fire alone.

The DFM/X just arrived today, and I will start the training on Monday, and plan to train on weekdays, with weekends off. I plan to start with some of the drills incorporated into the MantisX app, and then move on to working with drills in "Skills & Drills Reloaded," by Ben Stoeger.

Unfortunately, what I would like to have done is live fire a few drills, to establish a baseline of performance, that I could then compare to new drills after the social distancing forced dry fire only period. For a wide variety of reasons I haven't done live fire for several months. Most recent live fire did involve a "cold" Bill Drill. 2.5s par, and I only got five shots off within time, and one was a miss. My most recent "cold" FAST was 10.3s clean, my fastest ever was 7.5s, but I missed a "head" shot. Most recent qualification at work was 96%, with the lost points being at the 25 yard line.

My goals are:
1. consistent "clean" 2.5s or faster Bill Drill
2. consistent "clean" 7s or faster FAST
3. consistent 100% on work pistol qualification.
4. Limited Division B class or better in USPSA, or equivalent level in IDPA. I'm not sure what the might be with IDPA, as I haven't shot it much, but with my new location IDPA matches fit my schedule better than the local USPSA matches.

In addition to drastically improving trigger control, I know I need to speed up my reaction times, and gun handling.

I will update this periodically with my impressions of the DFM/X, and hopefully will be able to shoot a Bill Drill and FAST in couple of months to see if there is any measurable improvement.

[Darth_Uno]

My friend just got the same thing. Of course with the recent shutdown/quarantine I haven't been able to try it out. I do think it'd help, because you can "beat the game" by holding the weapon as rock-steady as possible, which can only be a good thing in live fire shooting.

[Duke]

I’m going to get a metric shit ton of heat for this


But for me dry fire isn’t all that.


The more of it I used to do the worse my habits got.


Didn’t train the FAST. Just did it.

Didn’t train for card splits at 75m or strong hand or from concealment. Just did it.


Maybe I’m too retarded to practice anything the right way. For my better at killing folks path, burpees and sprints make me more efficient than a thousand clicks and dropped mags walking around my house.

Flame on.

[DMF13]

Just did it. . .
You do you boo, but for the rest of us we can't shoot a sub 5s FAST, run a 4 min mile, solo a plane, or climb Mount Everest without training for it.

[Duke]

You do you boo, but for the rest of us we can't shoot a sub 5s FAST, run a 4 min mile, solo a plane, or climb Mount Everest without training for it.

I didn’t mean to sound rude.


Just meant I was scrambling for every last rep, dry fire etc I just went backwards.

[DMF13]

I didn’t mean to sound rude.


Just meant I was scrambling for every last rep, dry fire etc I just went backwards.I didn't think you were rude at all, and since you started and ended saying you expected some push back, I didn't think my very mildly sarcastic reply would offend. I'm just saying most of us have to train to achieve exceptional performance. In shooting it is widely accepted that the training should include dry fire. I certainly don't have the time or money to achieve my shooting goals with live fire alone.

[DMF13]

Initial impressions of the DFM/X, after I tried it for the first time today:

In addition to the DFM/X itself, I got a "spring kit," which allows for adjusting the device, but it's not fine tuning, it just changes the trigger pull weight. The device comes with a "stock spring" meant to simulate the trigger pull of a stock Glock pistol.

My duty gun is a Glock 19M, and my training pistol is a stock 19 Gen4 with a Blade-Tech training barrel installed. I've had plenty of time with Gen3, 4, and 5/M Glocks, including a Gen3 with a NY1 trigger. I've also had some experience using a 17R Gen 4 at work, and with my SIRT.

In my opinion the 17R, has a feel somewhere between a stock Glock trigger, and a NY1 Glock trigger, both in feel of the take up and break, and in the pull weight. However, I've never measured a 17R to be sure about the pull weight, it's just my opinion based on feel. Again, without a trigger pull scale, and going off feel, the DFM/X "stock spring" feels just slightly higher in pull weight the than a stock Glock trigger, and there is a more definite "wall" before the break, especially when compared to the Gen5/M trigger. To me the Gen5/M trigger has less of a definite "wall" before the break, than the Gen 3 and 4. The Gen5/Ms have what some of my friends have termed a "rolling break," with a less definite "wall" before the break. On the DFM/X the take up itself felt much more like the take up of the stock Glock triggers, than both the 17R/NY1, and much better than the SIRT. Reset feels much more like the stock Glock trigger and 17R, and therefore MUCH better than that of the SIRT.

After dozens of dry fire pulls with the "stock spring" I swapped out to the "blue" spring, which is supposed to simulate a 6.75# to 7.25# pull weight. Again, I don't have a pull with scale, but going off feel, it seems to be somewhere between the stock Glock pull weight and a NY1, so very close to the 17R. Based on my dry fire/live fire experience years ago with SIG 228/229 pistols, I like the idea of using a slightly higher pull weight for dry fire. With the SIGs I did tons of dry fire, but only DA trigger pulls. It made pulling the trigger in SA feel like "cheating." While not as drastic as going from the SIG 10# DA pull, down to the 4.5# SA I'm hoping to have the same effect by using a 7# pull vs. the stock 5.5# pull on the Glock. I personally never had a problem with the DA/SA transition. Here there won't be much of a feel difference between the practice trigger and real trigger, other than pull weight.

The feel of using the gun with the DFM/X is much better than the SIRT, but not quite as good as a 17R. However, the DFM/X is a much lower cost option than the 17R or the SIRT. Also, this was immediately available, unlike the 17R, and includes the MantisX system.

Something important to note, is you can't do reload drills with the DFM/X, or regular DFM, because the mags do not drop free.

The DFM/X (MantisX included) is $200, just the DFM (without the MantisX) is $100. Currently it's also available for S&W M&P.

My initial impressions, of the DFM itsel are favorable, but we will see if that holds up over time. However, I will need to play around with the MantisX, and it's associated app (the DFM/X communicates with a phone app via bluetooth) before forming any initial opinions, and again, time will tell if the MantisX is anything more than an expensive gimmick.

[Whirlwind06]

I was just looking at this on Amazon, thanks for the timely post.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Eyesquared]

I guess I don't see how the dryfiremag and MantisX will integrate into a training plan for those goals. I don't know what your qual course is like but most of those other goals are very gun handling-heavy, to the point where I would be almost exclusively working draws and reloads. Just my $0.02 as someone who started USPSA and got serious about dry fire last winter, shot some ~2.2s Bill drills earlier this year, and placed in the middle of B class at my first major USPSA match in February.

[CleverNickname]

4. Limited Division B class or better in USPSA, or equivalent level in IDPA. I'm not sure what the might be with IDPA, as I haven't shot it much, but with my new location IDPA matches fit my schedule better than the local USPSA matches.
USPSA B class and IDPA Master are about the same level.

[dontshakepandas]

This is an interesting idea and can save you some coin over buying them separately, but you do give up the ability to use the Mantis X for live fire.

I have both products separately, and like both. I keep my Mantis X on my training gun for dry fire and live fire. If I had to choose, I'd rather have the Mantis X for live and dry fire, than only for dry fire + the dry fire mag.

[Slalom.45]

As someone else stated before I'll probably take heat for this, but I can't see spending money on the Mantis or Dry fire mag. I did spend (waste) the money for the nice steel frame SIRT about 2 years ago. It did not take long to see that it wasn't much of a help. I will not be getting and more dry fire "toys" in my USPSA journey.

This is not meant to sound like a smart Alex (as Dad used to say), but the front sight will tell you what you are doing in dry fire if you actually pay attention to it. Where the bullets are impacting will do the same in live fire. At first I did not get this. The more I learn the more I see it so it may just be where you are at along the path. Just thought I'd throw this out there as I've seen a couple of guys buy the Mantis but have not seen significant improvement in their shooting. It really comes down to how much work you put in and how much focus you place on that work.

[dontshakepandas]

As someone else stated before I'll probably take heat for this, but I can't see spending money on the Mantis or Dry fire mag. I did spend (waste) the money for the nice steel frame SIRT about 2 years ago. It did not take long to see that it wasn't much of a help. I will not be getting and more dry fire "toys" in my USPSA journey.

This is not meant to sound like a smart Alex (as Dad used to say), but the front sight will tell you what you are doing in dry fire if you actually pay attention to it. Where the bullets are impacting will do the same in live fire. At first I did not get this. The more I learn the more I see it so it may just be where you are at along the path. Just thought I'd throw this out there as I've seen a couple of guys buy the Mantis but have not seen significant improvement in their shooting. It really comes down to how much work you put in and how much focus you place on that work.

The Mantis won't make you a better shooter by itself, but it can provide data that can help you accomplish goals. For example, the new draw analysis breaks down your draw into different stages such as how long to grip, pull, break the shot etc. This can be helpful if you are trying to go faster but aren't sure where you need to shave time off.

If all you are doing is dicking around with it and having it grade your shots, it won't provide anything that your front sight/dot won't do. If you are focused on the work it can be helpful though.

It also works pretty well as a shot timer and keeps a keeps a history of your times/drills that you can reference to see how you are improving.

[DMF13]

For example, the new draw analysis breaks down your draw into different stages such as how long to grip, pull, break the shot etc. This can be helpful if you are trying to go faster but aren't sure where you need to shave time off.Good point.

The last two days I've tried out that feature. I already knew I needed to get the draw to first shot time way down. My perception was my reaction time sucked, and was making me way slow to clear my cover garment, and get my hand on the gun. My perception was also that I was just a little slow to break the shot at the end of the press out.

What I saw from the MantisX is that my reaction time, and movement to the gun is is actually pretty good, and while I might be able to slice off a few hundredths of second there, I won't be making any huge improvements in reaction time/movement to gun. However, I also found out I'm not just a little slow breaking the shot at the end of the press out, I'm actually wasting tons of time breaking the shot at the end of the press out. So what I learned, very quickly, is that I don't need to work on reaction time much at all, but absolutely need to work on prepping the trigger better during the press out, and breaking the shot.

While I may have eventually gotten faster through mere repetition, now I know exactly where I need to concentrate the majority of my work to help reach my goals. I don't know if that bit of knowledge alone was worth the extra $100, it sure gave me a more clear view of something I need to work out.

[DMF13]

I guess I don't see how the dryfiremag and MantisX will integrate into a training plan for those goals. I don't know what your qual course is like but most of those other goals are very gun handling-heavy, to the point where I would be almost exclusively working draws and reloads. Just my $0.02 as someone who started USPSA and got serious about dry fire last winter, shot some ~2.2s Bill drills earlier this year, and placed in the middle of B class at my first major USPSA match in February.I appreciate the input, and I would agree that gun handling is a HUGE part of what I need to work on. However, I also know that my trigger control needs work, and the weak spots in trigger control are magnified the faster I try to go. So in addition to breaking the shot, I can now work on reset prep, for complete and proper follow through. That's where the Dry Fire Mag will hopefully pay off. Time will tell.

Aside from what I've seen about the draw to first shot data (see my post above), I'm also not sure if the MantisX will do much for me, but I thought I'd try it out and see.

[dontshakepandas]

For anybody who does have a Mantis-X, they've added some "Marksmanship Courses" to their app and will send you actual patches if you complete them.

I didn't find either of them too challenging, but it was a nice motivation to have a task to complete every day. Sending out the patches is pretty cool too.

I hope they add more features like that in the future, with or without the patches.

[DMF13]

After three weeks with the DFM/X I thought I’d offer an update, both on the device itself, and some things I need to work on while I can’t go do any live fire.

The DFM/X:
1- I’m not sure if the MantisX really has any value other than the holster draw analysis. As I said previously, it has showed me where I really need to work to shave time off my draw to first shot. The holster draw timer will only give you info about your first trigger pull, so even if you try to dry fire a drill like a Bill Drill or FAST, you’re only going to get time of the first shot, and not a breakdown of your dry fire splits. Unfortunately the time only has a start beep, and no ability to have a par time stop beep.

2- After the first 100 or so trigger pulls, I noticed the “wall” at the trigger break has gone away, and now the pull feels much more like my Glock Gen5 trigger. Hopefully it’s just something that needs to “break in,” and isn’t a harbinger of problems to come where I’ve been wearing on a part that will simply break.

3- The “click” at reset is just as loud as the “click” for the trigger break, so this might be a problem if using an external shot timer for dry fire. I don’t know for sure, as I don’t have my own shot timer, and don’t have access to the one at work right now. However, since the sound is exactly the same to my ear, I don’t see how a shot timer would be able to distinguish between the two shots, and would likely register the reset as another shot.

4- While the Dry Fire Mag is not as nice a 17R, especially since you can’t do reload drills with it, it is only $100 ($200 with the MantisX option), as opposed to $500 for a 17R. So you get a resetting trigger, which is easier to adjust the trigger pull weight, at relatively low cost. I’m not sure if that holster draw analysis is worth the $100, but like I’ve said it sure clued me into something I might not have figured out on my own, or at least not quickly.


Side note about my equipment, not specific to the DFM/X:
My practice gun is a 19 Gen4, and it has the crappy Glock plastic sights, my work gun has the Ameriglo “Agent” sights. Rather than go through the trouble and expense of adding matching sights to my dry fire pistol, I’ve painted the white front dot orange, and blacked out most of the rear white U, leaving two white dots. I figure that’s close enough to the real deal sights for dry fire work.



Things I’m working on:
1- In addition to the current world events keeping me from live fire, my personal and professional life for the past year and a half have kept me from doing much live fire, other than our quarterly weapons quals, and I had slacked off a lot on dry fire. Further the the other methods of dry fire were inadequate in my opinion, which is why I went looking for a 17R back in October. As a result of being busy, and a little lazy about training, my skills have deteriorated.

2- First, about two years ago, in live fire, 7 yards, untucked shirt for concealment, I was consistently able to do a sub-1.5 second draw to first shot into our head shot target at work, with a PR of 1.1 seconds. Now I’m struggling to be consistently below 1.8 seconds in dry fire. 1.1 to 1.5 isn’t very impressive, but my times now totally suck. I’m hoping to not just get back to the a sub 1.5s, but I figure to reach my stated goals, I’m going to need get that down to consistently 1.2 seconds or better.

3- Before getting the data on my draw to first shot times from the MantisX, I thought I was just a little slow on the press out, and a lot slow on reaction time/hand speed to getting on the gun in the holster. Turns out from buzzer, clearing my shirt, and putting my hand on the gun, I’m pretty consistent at around .45 seconds, but I’m wasting HUGE amounts of time on the press out, and on pulling the trigger at the end of the press out.

4- Another problem I realized is that due to the previous draw, fire, re-rack, practice I had been doing, I am occasionally holding the trigger back, and “forgetting” to reset for a split second. I don’t know if was doing that recently in live fire, but with the “resetting” trigger in dry fire I now occasionally have a delay resetting the trigger . I need to work on doing a proper reset/prep for every shot.

5- Finally, in just the last couple of weeks, because I was now conscious of just how much time I was wasting on breaking the shot at the end of the press out, I had started to get on the trigger WAY too early. I realized I need to make sure I’ve already started transitioning my eyes from target focused to front sight focused before moving my finger off the frame.

As a result of all that, for the last 3 days I’ve slowed everything way down, and I’ve been working on smoothly doing the draw, press out, breaking the shot, reset/prep, and doing a few follow up shots, again with the proper reset/prep. Included in all that, I’m working on being sure I’ve started the press out, and have moved my focus to the front sight, before moving my finger to the trigger. My new short term goal is to do several hundred “perfect” reps over this week, before trying to speed things back up.
Right now I’ve slowed it down to where I’m taking 2 to 2.2 seconds to break the shot. The odd thing was there were times where I wasn’t trying to go fast, but would look at the data, and have a handful of reps with times to first shot of 1.4s or less.

After I’ve started to rebuild good habits, and can get that time down below 1.5s consistently I’ll start working through Ben Stoeger’s Dry Fire book (I cited the wrong book in my first post). Hopefully, by the time I’m through that whole book, I will also have shaved some more time off my draw to first shot. I’m also hoping the social distancing restrictions will have eased up, so I can do some live fire to see what if any benefit all the dry fire will have.

[Keith E.]

OP,

I appreciate you starting this thread and following up periodically.

Keith

[DMF13]

A bit of an update. Due to some unusual work and family demands, I trained very little for several weeks in May and June. I still haven't had access to a range for live fire, but hope to change that soon.

However, after I slowed things down for a bit, and cleaned up some bad habits, when I started going for speed again my average draw to first shot times have gotten a tiny bit faster, but a lot more consistent. Gone are the occasional 1.8 to 2.0 fumbles, but gone also are the occasional fast but very sloppy 1.0 to 1.1 times. I'm now averaging 1.54, with times ranging from 1.35 to 1.65. Obviously I'm not happy that I'm still that slow, but I think consistency is a good thing.

I cut my reaction time, from beep to hand on the gun, down to .37-.4 and doubt I could get much faster there. I'm going to need to get the rest of the process smoother and faster to shave off another .3 to .4 in total time. I thought I'd have the draw time down where I wanted by now, but I'm committed to getting that fixed before moving on to other things. I'm anxious to get to a live range and see how all this dry fire will translate to the real world.

[DMF13]

Another update, if anyone still cares.

I have only been doing 2 or 3 dry fire sessions a week, the last couple of months, unlike when I first started, and was doing 5 days a week. Work and family commitments, plus a renewed emphasis on quality exercise, have cut into my time for other activities.

So far I haven't had a chance to get to a range, to run drills with a timer, but I did fire our agency qualification a week ago. There are time limits, but they aren't challenging enough to show any real difference in performance.

On the qualification course, I've consistently been a 95+% shooter for years, and I know the reason I'm not consistently banging out 100% is trigger control. Which really shows up at the 25 yard line, where I usually throw one or two shots.

Despite having not done any live fire for 8 months, I shot 100% a week ago, which actually surprised me. Despite the months of dry fire, I was concerned with such a long break from live fire, and thought I would struggle at the 25 yard line, but it was not an issue at all. I would have liked to have been faster (subjective feel as I wasn't on timer, just limited by the generous course times), and would have liked to have tighter groups overall, but despite the long break in live fire, I still didn't throw a single round at the 25 yard line.

Which brings me to this, I think I benefitted greatly from the Dry Fire Mag (DFM), compared to the previous methods I was using for dry fire. Having actually been able to practice the reset/prep, in dry fire, made me much more consistent in my follow through in live fire.

I will note, I think my plan of using the slightly heavier trigger pull on the DFM paid off. It just felt easier to quickly, but smoothly pull the trigger, when the pull weight as a little lower in live fire.

Based on my earlier experience, I'd still prefer using a Glock 17R, but the DFM was immediately available, and at a fraction of the cost of the 17R. By the way, it's been almost a year, and I'm still waiting for the 17R I ordered. :rolleyes: I will also say, that now I regret spending money, and time, on a SIRT, and should have just gone with this years ago. Like I said earlier, I know many will disagree, but for me the SIRT did not help.

However, I'm not sure the integrated MantisX is really worth the extra $100. I do like the "Holster Draw Analysis," but I'm not sure that feature alone justifies the additional expense.

[stomridertx]

I just went to order 2 DryFireMags and they are running an insane sale right now on the website. They have a code on there for $20 off each mag until 10/31/2020. Thought I'd share, that is an really great deal IMO. I sold my SIRT pistol and went this way from reading this forum, I learned the hard way that everyone here was right and I was wrong about the laser being at all beneficial.

[Whirlwind06]

I’ve been using Ben Stoeger method of putting a bit a paper in the breach which gives me a trigger pull. This is tempting but I’m not sure it’s worth the price.

[feudist]

The best dry fire gadget I've ever found is a red dot sight.

It'll make a hard man humble.

[JCN]

Just as another option:

I have the Glockstore resetting trigger.
It’s pretty expensive, but I’ve found it worth it.

It pretty much has to be put on a dedicated practice gun because the strike isn’t enough to light a primer and it involves a trigger and a special striker. So too much PITA to swap back and forth if you only have one gun.

But if you have a spare gun it works well and has enough strike to light a laser bullet.

I like the resetting and if I remove the safety plunger and extractor on the practice gun, it lightens and smooths the trigger even more.

Here’s a video I did to demonstrate something to a friend but it demonstrates what I’m talking about.


https://youtu.be/-ekwvHop8o4

[NoTacTravis]

That's a pretty slick set-up! How's the trigger "feel" compared to the "regular" Glock trigger? Wall feel the same and in the same place?

[JCN]

That's a pretty slick set-up! How's the trigger "feel" compared to the "regular" Glock trigger? Wall feel the same and in the same place?

Yes, it’s basically a stock trigger. Was a little stiff for my liking initially but after a lot of use and after removing the safety plunger it now has a competition Glock feel. If you like stiffer triggers or are trying to simulate a 5-6 pound trigger leave the plungers in.

For competition and gaming I tend to have triggers as light as 1.5# on a TSO to 2.5-4 pounds on Shadows and some Glocks.

This setup was from when I first starting shooting five years ago and then again 6 months ago when I wanted to see if I could improve my iron shooting to match my dot shooting (I couldn’t so I gave up and put a dot on my carry gun).