Sul vs Safety Circle

[HopetonBrown]

Is there a difference?

[Jac]

Not quite, according to Gomez: https://m.youtube.com/watch?utm_medium=social&utm_source=meetedgar.com&feature=youtu.be&v=NLMesZVCZdw&fbclid=IwAR3KF7G6d7gvBIk6j1iKckq1V5FOPm3haPgpvYfU9 g__LUMKiyEmKbnXDAk&utm_campaign=meetedgar#menu

[SoCalDep]

From my perspective, they both fill a “niche”, and both have advantages and disadvantages compared to each other.

First, I think we need to define why those techniques exist in the first place, and put them in their proper perspective compared to actual “ready positions”, as I don’t consider them “ready positions”.

In my mind there are two “ideal” places for a handgun being used (ie: searching, barricading, detaining, etc.). The first “ideal” is secured in a holster. This is the safest place the pistol can be and where the pistol should be if a threat is not expected/present. If a threat is expected, the “ideal” is a ready position (low ready, compressed ready, or all the other terms that describe those positions where the muzzle is oriented toward a threat area) that allows minimal time between being able to fire while allowing appropriate situational awareness. Visual obstructions and available space can and often will determine the appropriate ready position to use. Both the SUL and Safety Circle fail in what I’ve defined above compared to low or compressed ready. The muzzle is purposefully diverted far from the threat and in an awkward position. Both are poor choices from a weapon-retention standpoint and both present safety and muzzle awareness issues that we will discuss in a second.

Of course, “ideal” rarely exists independent of the “not ideal”, and that’s where these diverted muzzle techniques come into play. When the handgun is appropriately out of the holster in a high-risk situation yet the user is moving around people who don’t deserve a muzzle being pointed at them, one needs to do “something” to divert the muzzle from the ready position. The question is then what techniques are more appropriate for the situation. Here’s where we get the temple-index, SUL, Safety Circle, and the numerous other positions depending on small details, terminology, or to get deep in the weeds the use of handguns, long-guns, or consistency with both.

In short, diverted muzzle techniques should be used in situations when the pistol must be out of the holster but the user is moving around innocent/uninvolved persons or things or where there’s no good place to point the muzzle.

I used the SUL a fair bit when making entries with several deputies or during felony traffic stops when I had to re-position. Looking back now, in most of those cases I should simply have holstered.

In the event of those fleeting moments where we momentarily divert the muzzle as we say, move around a partner to gain a safer or more appropriate position, which technique is best?

The SUL offers the advantage of a physical “index” against the body which (in theory) allows one to maintain muzzle discipline without having to look at the pistol. On the other hand it is complicated and awkward for many, resulting in poor technique, especially for those introduced to the technique too early in overall skill development. I’ve seen lots of people muzzle their own hands and body or fail to bring the muzzle straight in front and almost straight down. Particularly when turning the muzzle ends up being oriented far to the side and potentially in unsafe directions.

The Safety Circle is a much simpler technique in execution and in my mind probably better for most, but has it’s own drawbacks. First, it is horrible for weapon retention as the handgun is held awkwardly and held out away from the body ready to be grabbed or impacted. There is no physical index so in some ways more care must be taken to avoid muzzling one’s own body or others, but the simplicity makes this a gray area compared to SUL. I know many will say SUL is a “technique” as part of the overall “safety circle” concept but I prefer to separate them because there are such distinct differences in skill development to properly employ them.

Both of these techniques and others (temple-index, etc) serve the momentary purpose of diverting the muzzle to avoid covering things we don’t wish to destroy or pay for. At least one or the other should be learned and practiced by those who may potentially use a handgun in “social situations”. Both techniques are frequently done wrong (SUL more than the other) and both techniques are VERY often applied inappropriately as ready positions or when the handgun should simply be holstered.

[TGS]

Gomez's video on the subject is excessively pedantic and theatrical.

They're the same thing. If you have to go through a tight hallway, your tuck your elbows in and compress your hold as necessary. If you're not, you can relax the elbows and not look like a monkey fucking a football just because someone says "but it's this, not this". The safety circle as described by him is not the safety circle as taught by FLETC or my agency, and looks absolutely fucking stupid.

[SoCalDep]

I agree that it should be more simple than many people make it, and while SUL works, I find it too “not simple” for most. I also don’t like a go-to muzzle up position as shown in the Paul Gomez video because many people don’t realize how close they are to pointing the pistol at their own head. I think the motivated and experienced such as us on this forum and in the training world can forget how uncoordinated an inexperienced person can be.

[Clusterfrack]

I agree that it should be more simple than many people make it, and while SUL works, I find it too “not simple” for most. I also don’t like a go-to muzzle up position as shown in the Paul Gomez video because many people don’t realize how close they are to pointing the pistol at their own head. I think the motivated and experienced such as us on this forum and in the training world can forget how uncoordinated an inexperienced person can be.

I once had to reach over a dude’s shoulder and grab his gun because he was muzzling his hat brim and breaking the vertical 180, with finger not fully out of the trigger guard. “Because I don’t want to clean your brains off my face” was my response when he started arguing.

[DDTSGM]

This is from my file of copied articles:

Remember the Safety Circle when muzzling your gun: A training concept taught for a decade is still unfamiliar to many officers and agencies

By: Bill Campbell

For the past 12 years, the NRA's Law Enforcement Activities Division has taught the concept of the Safety Circle in Firearms Instructor Development courses offered nationwide. Throughout the past decade, I’ve seen the concept renamed and re-taught at many training conferences and courses, but occasionally I still find that officers and agencies are unfamiliar with it.

Edited by mod - please don't post entire copyrighted articles. Link to full article here:

link: https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/remember-the-safety-circle-when-muzzling-your-gun-Gf3xiCD9JKlGoBcS/

[DDTSGM]

I posted the prior on safety circle because I find it is a foreign concept to many folks. I decided to google the tile and here you go, the original article:

https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/remember-the-safety-circle-when-muzzling-your-gun-Gf3xiCD9JKlGoBcS/

An article on 'Sul':

http://blog.cuttingedgetraining.org/post/Why-Do-We-Teach-e2809cSule2809d-Position.aspx

Video from 'co-founder' of Sul:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-amA56Ge4

[HopetonBrown]

I posted the prior on safety circle because I find it is a foreign concept to many folks. I decided to google the tile and here you go, the original article:

An article on 'Sul':

http://blog.cuttingedgetraining.org/post/Why-Do-We-Teach-e2809cSule2809d-Position.aspx

Video from 'co-founder' of Sul:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-amA56Ge4

The photo and article on Sul contradicts the video of Max Joseph, I was asking for 1st hand knowledge from forum members.

The people I've shared the range with from my local PD collapse into that quasi-Sul after their string of fire. I thought perhaps it was something else I wasn't familiar with or perhaps more likely a "telephone game" version.

[AMC]

From my perspective, they both fill a “niche”, and both have advantages and disadvantages compared to each other.

First, I think we need to define why those techniques exist in the first place, and put them in their proper perspective compared to actual “ready positions”, as I don’t consider them “ready positions”.

In my mind there are two “ideal” places for a handgun being used (ie: searching, barricading, detaining, etc.). The first “ideal” is secured in a holster. This is the safest place the pistol can be and where the pistol should be if a threat is not expected/present. If a threat is expected, the “ideal” is a ready position (low ready, compressed ready, or all the other terms that describe those positions where the muzzle is oriented toward a threat area) that allows minimal time between being able to fire while allowing appropriate situational awareness. Visual obstructions and available space can and often will determine the appropriate ready position to use. Both the SUL and Safety Circle fail in what I’ve defined above compared to low or compressed ready. The muzzle is purposefully diverted far from the threat and in an awkward position. Both are poor choices from a weapon-retention standpoint and both present safety and muzzle awareness issues that we will discuss in a second.

Of course, “ideal” rarely exists independent of the “not ideal”, and that’s where these diverted muzzle techniques come into play. When the handgun is appropriately out of the holster in a high-risk situation yet the user is moving around people who don’t deserve a muzzle being pointed at them, one needs to do “something” to divert the muzzle from the ready position. The question is then what techniques are more appropriate for the situation. Here’s where we get the temple-index, SUL, Safety Circle, and the numerous other positions depending on small details, terminology, or to get deep in the weeds the use of handguns, long-guns, or consistency with both.

In short, diverted muzzle techniques should be used in situations when the pistol must be out of the holster but the user is moving around innocent/uninvolved persons or things or where there’s no good place to point the muzzle.

I used the SUL a fair bit when making entries with several deputies or during felony traffic stops when I had to re-position. Looking back now, in most of those cases I should simply have holstered.

In the event of those fleeting moments where we momentarily divert the muzzle as we say, move around a partner to gain a safer or more appropriate position, which technique is best?

The SUL offers the advantage of a physical “index” against the body which (in theory) allows one to maintain muzzle discipline without having to look at the pistol. On the other hand it is complicated and awkward for many, resulting in poor technique, especially for those introduced to the technique too early in overall skill development. I’ve seen lots of people muzzle their own hands and body or fail to bring the muzzle straight in front and almost straight down. Particularly when turning the muzzle ends up being oriented far to the side and potentially in unsafe directions.

The Safety Circle is a much simpler technique in execution and in my mind probably better for most, but has it’s own drawbacks. First, it is horrible for weapon retention as the handgun is held awkwardly and held out away from the body ready to be grabbed or impacted. There is no physical index so in some ways more care must be taken to avoid muzzling one’s own body or others, but the simplicity makes this a gray area compared to SUL. I know many will say SUL is a “technique” as part of the overall “safety circle” concept but I prefer to separate them because there are such distinct differences in skill development to properly employ them.

Both of these techniques and others (temple-index, etc) serve the momentary purpose of diverting the muzzle to avoid covering things we don’t wish to destroy or pay for. At least one or the other should be learned and practiced by those who may potentially use a handgun in “social situations”. Both techniques are frequently done wrong (SUL more than the other) and both techniques are VERY often applied inappropriately as ready positions or when the handgun should simply be holstered.

I was going to reply earlier, but this is largely the same as my thinking....especially the overuse of Sul as a ready position. Sul is a moment in time where the muzzle is diverted to avoiding muzzling non hostiles. The safety circle is a model of how to employ Sul. Haven't watched the Gomez video, so I can't comment on that. I'd be interested in hearing about how its taught at FLETC or TGS's agency though.

[SoCalDep]

I was going to reply earlier, but this is largely the same as my thinking....especially the overuse of Sul as a ready position. Sul is a moment in time where the muzzle is diverted to avoiding muzzling non hostiles. The safety circle is a model of how to employ Sul. Haven't watched the Gomez video, so I can't comment on that. I'd be interested in hearing about how its taught at FLETC or TGS's agency though.

Me too! We have been teaching SUL for years but now have the opportunity to make some changes, and while I have some thoughts I’d certainly like to see other options.

[TGS]

I'd be interested in hearing about how its taught at FLETC or TGS's agency though.

Probably the same as everyone else. Point the weapon at the ground in a vertical position, and don't point it at people. To be fair I think FLETC called it something different, or maybe we call it something different, but it was conceptually the same thing. I distinctly remember an instructor making a joke about that and forgetting what he was supposed to call it by the curriculum, and that somebody probably got an award for calling it something different.

Contrary to some of FLETC's failings (mainly firearms training), my class actually had some pretty decent tactics instructors. They talked about this stuff, and staying away from range theatrics where people do a textbook "sul" position because some guy said you have to have your elbows tucked in and look like a tactical turtle for it to be sul.....because reasons. Point the weapon at the ground, keeping it up in a defensible workspace. Tuck you elbows if you need to. Don't tuck your elbows and crank your wrists if you don't need to. Don't be an idiot.

Gadfly

[WobblyPossum]

I agree that Sul shouldn’t be a ready position because it’s not a “ready” position. You don’t have a real two handed grip on your firearm. Low ready is a ready position. High compressed ready is a ready position. You can either already shoot from those positions or you only need to move the gun along one axis to shoot from those positions since your grip is established. I believe Sul, and things like temple index, should be used when moving around no-shoots you don’t want to muzzle like teammates and uninvolved third parties.

My first agency used Sul as a ready position. I wasn’t a fan of that approach. My current agency teaches it as a default position when not actively aimed in on something while operating in a team environment such as when clearing a structure. I can’t really argue against it because of how often people are moving around other people during such scenarios. I don’t entirely agree with SoCalDep in that most times people employ Sul, they’d probably be better off reholstering or just keeping the gun holstered. I’ve found getting the gun up in my eye line and shooting from Sul to be enough faster than from having my hand on a holstered pistol that I’m okay keeping the gun in my hand and managing the associated risks of moving with a gun in your hand.

[Gadfly]

Probably the same as everyone else. Point the weapon at the ground in a vertical position, and don't point it at people. To be fair I think FLETC called it something different, or maybe we call it something different, but it was conceptually the same thing. I distinctly remember an instructor making a joke about that and forgetting what he was supposed to call it by the curriculum, and that somebody probably got an award for calling it something different.

Contrary to some of FLETC's failings (mainly firearms training), my class actually had some pretty decent tactics instructors. They talked about this stuff, and staying away from range theatrics where people do a textbook "sul" position because some guy said you have to have your elbows tucked in and look like a tactical turtle for it to be sul.....because reasons. Point the weapon at the ground, keeping it up in a defensible workspace. Tuck you elbows if you need to. Don't tuck your elbows and crank your wrists if you don't need to. Don't be an idiot.

Gadfly

I just left Fletc, but I was in the classroom the whole time. I went there to be an FI, and they were short staffed in the classroom, so I got voluntold.

As far as Sul, yeah, we teach it, but it’s not the end all be all “you must use it” thing. It’s a tool in the toolbox. It has a place. But a lot of people look like absolute douche bags while doing it. If you don’t have a target, it works... so does holstering.

Tool in the toolbox. Use as needed...

[SoCalDep]

I agree that Sul shouldn’t be a ready position because it’s not a “ready” position. You don’t have a real two handed grip on your firearm. Low ready is a ready position. High compressed ready is a ready position. You can either already shoot from those positions or you only need to move the gun along one axis to shoot from those positions since your grip is established. I believe Sul, and things like temple index, should be used when moving around no-shoots you don’t want to muzzle like teammates and uninvolved third parties.

My first agency used Sul as a ready position. I wasn’t a fan of that approach. My current agency teaches it as a default position when not actively aimed in on something while operating in a team environment such as when clearing a structure. I can’t really argue against it because of how often people are moving around other people during such scenarios. I don’t entirely agree with SoCalDep in that most times people employ Sul, they’d probably be better off reholstering or just keeping the gun holstered. I’ve found getting the gun up in my eye line and shooting from Sul to be enough faster than from having my hand on a holstered pistol that I’m okay keeping the gun in my hand and managing the associated risks of moving with a gun in your hand.

Allow me to clarify...

I agree that for those short-duration events where one needs to move around people while still expecting an immediate threat (think re-positioning to address a threat or responding to an active shooter with people running everywhere) that diverted muzzle techniques are far better than holstering a pistol.

What I was talking about is multiple muzzles pointed at a threat (felony traffic stop) and we need to significantly move to re-position. While moving we are in no way able or appropriate to address the threat. Holster the damn gun. We’re standing around because we have nothing to do and no place to point a muzzle... Holster. We’re in the middle of an 8-person stack and want to be part of the fun but have nothing to do...

The reality is that under stress most people (including many of the thousands I’ve trained and hundreds I’ve watched in force-on-force) won’t use a diverted technique. They’ll point their muzzle at anyone and anything around... often while pressing the trigger. I watched one person get hit with a sim round from the roof and proceed to shoot almost everyone else on their six person “team” as they spun around trying to “find” the bad guy.

If you have a place to point the gun... point it there. If not, holster. If you have a place to point the gun but something/someone got in your way, then by all means divert the muzzle - if you can - and reposition to point the gun.

[WobblyPossum]

Allow me to clarify...

I agree that for those short-duration events where one needs to move around people while still expecting an immediate threat (think re-positioning to address a threat or responding to an active shooter with people running everywhere) that diverted muzzle techniques are far better than holstering a pistol.

What I was talking about is multiple muzzles pointed at a threat (felony traffic stop) and we need to significantly move to re-position. While moving we are in no way able or appropriate to address the threat. Holster the damn gun. We’re standing around because we have nothing to do and no place to point a muzzle... Holster. We’re in the middle of an 8-person stack and want to be part of the fun but have nothing to do...

The reality is that under stress most people (including many of the thousands I’ve trained and hundreds I’ve watched in force-on-force) won’t use a diverted technique. They’ll point their muzzle at anyone and anything around... often while pressing the trigger. I watched one person get hit with a sim round from the roof and proceed to shoot almost everyone else on their six person “team” as they spun around trying to “find” the bad guy.

If you have a place to point the gun... point it there. If not, holster. If you have a place to point the gun but something/someone got in your way, then by all means divert the muzzle - if you can - and reposition to point the gun.

I’m tracking now. I completely agree.

[Gio]

My current agency teaches it as a default position when not actively aimed in on something while operating in a team environment such as when clearing a structure.

That is primarily how my agency teaches/utilizes it. I don't have a problem with utilizing it like this, and it is a relatively easy technique to teaches the masses, which as mentioned, are not as coordinated or as disciplined with their muzzle awareness as the folks posting here would be. We definitely do not use or teach it as a ready position though.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yeah, I speak on behalf of nobody but me, but I always treat Sul as sort of a fast compression position if I'm moving around other people. I can break a pistol down to Sul from high ready (or low ready, I guess, although I'm struggling to think of a situation in which that would apply to me) to step behind someone or if someone steps in front of me, and go back to high ready as I clear them.

I honestly don't really care if the originator has the muzzle pointed down, or 45, or at the moon. From my perspective, when I break the gun down off ready, I'm pointing it at the ground because unless I'm in a densely packed gymnasium of toddlers, that's probably the safest direction. I call it Sul because that's what I was taught: support hand flat on the chest, muzzle down, thumb tips touching or thereabouts, that's Sul. Nobody ever gave me really specific directions about what "muzzle down" means; I point it straight down because that's where it should go.

I actually wasn't familiar with the expression "safety circle" and it sounds gay but the concept seems valid, although I would express it thusly:

"Your gun should not be pointing at friendly body parts, even feet. But if it's pointing at feet, they damn well better be your own feet. If you do something stupid and embarrassing, you can say 'I shot myself in the foot there' but the expression for shooting someone ELSE in the foot is not a funny idiom, it's criminal negligence and somebody taking your guns away. Don't do that shit."

[Chuck Whitlock]

Contrary to some of FLETC's failings (mainly firearms training), my class actually had some pretty decent tactics instructors. They talked about this stuff, and staying away from range theatrics where people do a textbook "sul" position because some guy said you have to have your elbows tucked in and look like a tactical turtle for it to be sul.....because reasons. Point the weapon at the ground, keeping it up in a defensible workspace. Tuck you elbows if you need to. Don't tuck your elbows and crank your wrists if you don't need to. Don't be an idiot.


I just left Fletc, but I was in the classroom the whole time. I went there to be an FI, and they were short staffed in the classroom, so I got voluntold.

As far as Sul, yeah, we teach it, but it’s not the end all be all “you must use it” thing. It’s a tool in the toolbox. It has a place. But a lot of people look like absolute douche bags while doing it. If you don’t have a target, it works... so does holstering.

Tool in the toolbox. Use as needed...


I've had more than a couple sleep cycles since FLETC, in both FITP and SSTP. I've read Max Joseph describe the genesis of SUL, and had Mark Fricke describe the Safety Circle in an instructor in-service class in Nebraska. And, honestly, sometimes the sources of info get muddled after time. Suffice to say that neither are really "ready positions", but muzzle aversion techniques when in and around no-shoots. And, ultimately, "six-of-one / half-a-dozen of the other". Do whichever you have to do to avoid muzzling no-shoots. I would advise practitioners to get as close as possible to the original sources as possible, as each removal from said source of this information is just as reliable as playing 'telephone' as a kid.

[HCM]

Probably the same as everyone else. Point the weapon at the ground in a vertical position, and don't point it at people. To be fair I think FLETC called it something different, or maybe we call it something different, but it was conceptually the same thing. I distinctly remember an instructor making a joke about that and forgetting what he was supposed to call it by the curriculum, and that somebody probably got an award for calling it something different.

Contrary to some of FLETC's failings (mainly firearms training), my class actually had some pretty decent tactics instructors. They talked about this stuff, and staying away from range theatrics where people do a textbook "sul" position because some guy said you have to have your elbows tucked in and look like a tactical turtle for it to be sul.....because reasons. Point the weapon at the ground, keeping it up in a defensible workspace. Tuck you elbows if you need to. Don't tuck your elbows and crank your wrists if you don't need to. Don't be an idiot.

Gadfly

FLETC calls (or called) Sul "the alternate position."

Theory being it's not a ready position but rather an "alternate" position for use only when there is a friendly or non -threat in front of / around you precluding a ready position.

Similar to what DanM and Gio described but FLETC like to have their own labels for everything.

DanM our Agency was pushing the NRA safety circle for a awhile via our national firearms unit. Thankfully that has gone away.

[ST911]

FLETC calls (or called) Sul "the alternate position."

Your PM box is full.

[HCM]

Your PM box is full.

Cleared.

[Rex G]

SUL really hurts my right wrist, so it is a very momentary position that I have used only occasionally, before and after it was taught at our academy. I was never taught that SUL is a ready position. Actually, I may never have been formally trained to use SUL, at all, as it did not enter the curriculum at the academy until long after I graduated.

I prefer SouthNarc’s “Averted” #2, especially if my right hand is my weapon hand, in situations where SUL would apply. The wrist remains straight. (This was what Craig called it, when I attended ECQC during Paleolithic times. Terminology may have evolved, since then.)