Finally Broke 1 Second Draw!

[Jay585]

So this is a bragging post and a post for help.

Got a .89 draw from concealment:
p/B-smtjapFZD
"Yeah! Finally broke that 1 second draw! Target is a 3x3" post it note with a 3/8" circle at 60". I wasn't on the circle but I was on the post it note. Keeping it honest. Goal is to get the same time but IN the circle."

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-smtjapFZDZGdX4VcGfPlWIVTstyBIqMiVn-k0/

Can my form be cleaned up?

What do I need to do to get that red dot inside the black circle?

Prior to this attempt my best was 1.10 (with my eyes closed and not caring about sights, but seeing how fast I can go) but AsianJedi's latest technique video helped me overcome that hump. So thank you for that Scott.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBBH-mj9Fug

[Cory]

Congratulations. If I'm pressing I can sub 1 dryfire a draw. I can not perform that live fire. I wish I could.

I know it's only one rep, but I'd be careful about taking a step to the rear, leaning, and looking during reholster. Someone corrected my reholster when I first joined, and I got defensive about it. I think it was YVK . When I actually listened and looked at his feedback, he was right. Incorporating some changes helped me develop "healthy" reholster habits that have redundant layers.

-Cory

[Jay585]

Congratulations. If I'm pressing I can sub 1 dryfire a draw. I can not perform that live fire. I wish I could.

I know it's only one rep, but I'd be careful about taking a step to the rear, leaning, and looking during reholster. Someone corrected my reholster when I first joined, and I got defensive about it. I think it was YVK . When I actually listened and looked at his feedback, he was right. Incorporating some changes helped me develop "healthy" reholster habits that have redundant layers.

-Cory

I tried several more times and was able to get about half my reps under a second. I definitely need to work on consistency. I haven't timed myself live fire mostly because on the range wearing ear muffs, I can't hear the beep (not sure if you picked it up in the video, but I wear two hearing aids).

Could you elaborate what you mean by the step, lean and look?

[Cory]

Prdator Spencer Keepers would be the expert (as far as I'm aware. I haven't trained with him but would like to). I cant recall a title for a Keepers video at the moment. John Johnston's video explains it well.

https://youtu.be/JGU7HbgDIvE

Here is my very first USPSA stage. I holster twice and use the step, look, lean (thumb on hammer as well) when holstering.

https://youtu.be/F7gVc4t7CCg

So basically step back dominate leg, lean back at the waist (I consciously exaggerate this), and look to ensure the holster is clear as you holster. I really try to look at the trigger as it becomes covered. I also thumb a hammer. AIWB feels better hidden and faster... but I'm very attached to my junk and want to keep it.

-Cory

[Jay585]

cor_man257 - Just watched both vids and I gotcha now.

I'll admit my re-holster was faulty, however when I know I've got live rounds (or rather, I should say - when I haven't confirmed the gun is safe) I'm much more careful. I do not step back, and I might lean back but my technique has been to get the muzzle in the holster, then lever the backstrap of the frame into my gut before completing the re-holster. This pulls the holster off my body and cants the muzzle 10 degrees away from my body. Not sure if this is acceptable technique and I'll throw up a video if need be.

As far as my original questions:

I edited down my video and slowed it down quite a bit.

https://imgur.com/a/c2uyssS
(tried to embed it, but don't know how)

Looking at the video in slow mo, it seems like maybe my grab could be better. I press down hard on the pistol, actually pushing it into my holster before starting the draw. I'm thinking if I can work on just laying my hand on the grip and snatching it out, that would help.

I'm not sure about my support hand position. Scott (AsianJedi) likes to pinch-grab the shirt at the belly button and pull up to the sternum. Because of how my shirts blouse I prefer grabbing the hem, but I pull pretty high - up to mid-chest level. Not sure if this needs to be corrected.

The extension looks decent to me, but there's some muzzle wiggle. I'm assuming it's the release of the trigger, and thus the lack of pressure on the pistol that may have caused movement.

Here are two more videos from the same session, this time from the left side. Times: 0.90 & .98 respectively. The 2nd video in the post, you can see my trying to verify my sights - I must have lost the dot. My apologies for the poor gun handling, I get sloppy when I know the gun is unloaded. Another consistency issue I need to work on.

https://imgur.com/a/eDCnvA2

I'm tempted to take the Scott's class Red Dot Pistol: Fundamentals and Performance in Blackfoot, ID (https://modern-samurai-project.myshopify.com/products/red-dot-pistol-fundamentals-and-performance-2-day-course-blackfoot-idaho-october-3-4-2020) but in addition to never going to a course, I have a hearing disability that I worry may hold the class back. Has anyone had a deaf student in a class before? How did that go?

[Zincwarrior]

Congratulations young man!

[baddean]

cor_man257 -
I'm tempted to take the Scott's class Red Dot Pistol: Fundamentals and Performance in Blackfoot, ID (https://modern-samurai-project.myshopify.com/products/red-dot-pistol-fundamentals-and-performance-2-day-course-blackfoot-idaho-october-3-4-2020) but in addition to never going to a course, I have a hearing disability that I worry may hold the class back. Has anyone had a deaf student in a class before? How did that go?

I too wear hearing aids. My loss is age related but a loss none the less.
Do the hearing aids allow you to hear well enough to understand speech? I know it's a dumb question but I don't know your level of hearing loss. Do you wear earpro over your aids when at the range?
If you'd prefer we can take this off thread to a PM.
We have had hearing challenged individuals in several classes over the years (myself included until I got my aids). During drills where necessary we use visual or physical (touching) prompts. These people have never "held up" a class. On the contrary, they were more attentive and had better concentration and indicated to us that they never felt left out.
My audiologist initially told me not to wear my aids while shooting. It defeated the purpose of using them to understand students on the range.
During one class transition from the classroom to the range I forgot about the aids and put my earpro on over the aids. I wear ProEar Gold electronic muffs and they fit well over my aids. I found no downside to wearing the muffs over the aids. I could still understand students speech and the noise attenuation from shots was actually better.
I wear Phonak aids and during a visit to my audiologist we had a three-way conversation with a Phonak technician regarding the ProEar muffs over the aids. It was determined that that combination was acceptable based on the ProEars specs and the built in volume cut out of the aids.
Don't let hearing aids/loss keep you from taking classes. Any instructor worth his/her salt will see to it that you enjoy and learn during the class. You should let them know before the class.
As far as critiquing your draw, you're a lot faster than I'll ever be. Now it's time to do the same thing live.
As far as reholstering or general gun handling, I would suggest you stop thinking of guns in different conditions and how you handle them. Just treat all of them the same, blue, Sirt, empty, loaded. No difference. Treat it like the gun that it is.
Hope this is helpful

[Yung]

Thumbs up for using Alex's Commander.

[Jay585]

Do the hearing aids allow you to hear well enough to understand speech?

Do you wear earpro over your aids when at the range?

As far as reholstering or general gun handling, I would suggest you stop thinking of guns in different conditions and how you handle them. Just treat all of them the same, blue, Sirt, empty, loaded. No difference. Treat it like the gun that it is.
Hope this is helpfulOP's post edited to show the addressed questions

Yes my hearing aids help understand speech, but I still rely heavily on lip reading. Talking to coworkers wearing an N95 mask usually results in me misunderstanding and the other party lowering their mask so I can lip read.

I do wear earpro over my hearing aids. I will bump up the volume at a public (unsupervised) range so I can pick out anomalies. A louder voice than normal makes me look around to see if someone's trying to say something to me. I'll hear the loud voice but can't understand what's being said. The muffs I wear are cheap foam muffs without amplification. I have added these MSA Sordin Supreme Pro X Electronic Earmuff (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QUYKS8Y) to my wishlist. I'm not sure if they'd work but Amazon has a great return policy, so... EDIT: The other muffs on my list are the Peltor Sport Tactical 300 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06WGRCH7J/)

I will start working on developing gun handling consistency.

Thank you for your response!

[baddean]

Jay,
When purchasing muffs make sure that the ear box has enough room to fit over your aids and ear with out interfering with the aids. And that they still seal around your ear.
With the amplified muffs and aids you might hear/understand a little better on the range and they will be more comfortable.
The MSA Sordins look like they might have more generous ear box.

[David S.]

I've taken Scott's class twice now.

Given the current shutdown, this might be a good time to do a online training session with him.


Being hearing impaired, you'll likely miss some of the side stuff that's directed at others but still take a lot out of the general class. His presentation is good and he's a loud talker. Lot's of demos.

[Gio]

From my observation, it looks like you are not reacting at the beginning of the beep. You could probably shave .1-.2 off the total time if you can focus on reacting as soon as the beep starts. Conversely, it looks like you do not quite have a solid sight picture and grip at the moment you press the trigger. Both of these could be the sound in the video not sync'd up well, but i'm pretty sure I can see it in your trigger finger movement as well as hearing the click of the shot breaking early. You can also shave some time by relaxing your shoulders at full draw and focus on bringing the sights/RDS to your eyes instead of lowering your head to the sights. You're losing efficiency and economy of motion by tensing up your shoulders, neck, tucking your head, etc.

Push the limits in dry fire as much as you can, but be cautious about cheating yourself in dry fire because you can get away with it there.

[Jay585]

Went to the range today to test livefire.

Did not bring the timer, just went as quick as I could. I was not hitting the target (target was a AP-1C (https://domagron.com/products/010315837130) at 7 yards). I think I hit the cardboard backer twice out of 10 attempts :( So I have the speed down, just need to work on the marksmanship.

I've also been trying to improve my reholster but I have noticed I will gradually slip back into old habits. I'm sure if I'm doing it dry fire, I am probably also doing it live fire.


From my observation, it looks like you are not reacting at the beginning of the beep. You could probably shave .1-.2 off the total time if you can focus on reacting as soon as the beep starts. Conversely, it looks like you do not quite have a solid sight picture and grip at the moment you press the trigger. Both of these could be the sound in the video not sync'd up well, but i'm pretty sure I can see it in your trigger finger movement as well as hearing the click of the shot breaking early. You can also shave some time by relaxing your shoulders at full draw and focus on bringing the sights/RDS to your eyes instead of lowering your head to the sights. You're losing efficiency and economy of motion by tensing up your shoulders, neck, tucking your head, etc.

Push the limits in dry fire as much as you can, but be cautious about cheating yourself in dry fire because you can get away with it there.

After testing live fire I have to agree about the trigger/grip.

I noticed the tucking of the head too, but I wasn't sure if that was something to be worked on. Glad to have confirmation.

Thanks for the advice, I'll go to work trying to fix that.

[Gio]

Jay585 try dry firing without a trigger press. Draw to a sight picture at 7 yds. You should’ve able to mentally confirm the sights have stopped on the A zone of a target before the second beep of the timer. You can typically set the timer about .1 faster than your standard draw with a trigger press, but I would recommend starting with excessive par time (like 1.5 seconds) and working down by .1 at a time. If you don’t see your dot centered in the target before the beep, you didn’t make the time.

[Jay585]

Gio, thanks for your tips and advice. Haven't implemented it today, but I will!

[Mark D]

Got a .89 draw from concealment

"Yeah! Finally broke that 1 second draw!

Nice job, dude, Way faster than me.

[AsianJedi]

cor_man257 - Just watched both vids and I gotcha now.

I'll admit my re-holster was faulty, however when I know I've got live rounds (or rather, I should say - when I haven't confirmed the gun is safe) I'm much more careful. I do not step back, and I might lean back but my technique has been to get the muzzle in the holster, then lever the backstrap of the frame into my gut before completing the re-holster. This pulls the holster off my body and cants the muzzle 10 degrees away from my body. Not sure if this is acceptable technique and I'll throw up a video if need be.

As far as my original questions:

I edited down my video and slowed it down quite a bit.

https://imgur.com/a/c2uyssS
(tried to embed it, but don't know how)

Looking at the video in slow mo, it seems like maybe my grab could be better. I press down hard on the pistol, actually pushing it into my holster before starting the draw. I'm thinking if I can work on just laying my hand on the grip and snatching it out, that would help.

I'm not sure about my support hand position. Scott (AsianJedi) likes to pinch-grab the shirt at the belly button and pull up to the sternum. Because of how my shirts blouse I prefer grabbing the hem, but I pull pretty high - up to mid-chest level. Not sure if this needs to be corrected.

The extension looks decent to me, but there's some muzzle wiggle. I'm assuming it's the release of the trigger, and thus the lack of pressure on the pistol that may have caused movement.

Here are two more videos from the same session, this time from the left side. Times: 0.90 & .98 respectively. The 2nd video in the post, you can see my trying to verify my sights - I must have lost the dot. My apologies for the poor gun handling, I get sloppy when I know the gun is unloaded. Another consistency issue I need to work on.

https://imgur.com/a/eDCnvA2

I'm tempted to take the Scott's class Red Dot Pistol: Fundamentals and Performance in Blackfoot, ID (https://modern-samurai-project.myshopify.com/products/red-dot-pistol-fundamentals-and-performance-2-day-course-blackfoot-idaho-october-3-4-2020) but in addition to never going to a course, I have a hearing disability that I worry may hold the class back. Has anyone had a deaf student in a class before? How did that go?

The stabbing of the gun down returns the kinetic energy back to the rest or your draw. Just laying it on the gun then pulling it out will make your motion 2 things, thus slower.

Good work by the way.

Also, that target is too small. Use an 8.5 x 11 piece of paper. with the post-it note you are working on speed and accuracy at the same time. This is not optimal. Do you bench press and sprint at the same time? Separate the activities then your body will put them together subconsciously when you are put to a test.

[heyscooter]

I was pushing some of my fastest times ever the other day (1.05 from IWB concealment @ 7 yards) but I was reallllyyyyy struggling to stay on target. It was a Charlie and Delta picnic, and I admit I sailed a couple over the cardboard. I feel like when I push for hand speed I lose focus of trying to find the front sight. I've tried "angling" the pistol so when I'm pressing out I can pick it up with my eyes to allow for a better acquisition. What else should I be doing? After this I started focusing on trying to get on target sight pictures without doing any trigger presses, and that felt like a good way to focus on getting the sights in line.

[Jay585]

Did some more practice last night. No videos to share.

Started out AIWB, hands down. No cover garment to clear. Got down to .81 for a few reps but average seemed to be .90

Added cover garment, hands down fastest rep was .81, but most of the reps were .85-.90 (I thought the cover garment would slow me down, but either it doesn't, or I was "warmed up" from my previous draws).

Cover garment Hands up. Fastest was .90, but most my draws were right around 1.03

Most my reps I was finding the dot ON the target. A few of my reps the dot wasn't there, but if I moved my head around I'd find the dot on the upper right quadrant of the target. Now using an 8.5x11" sheet of paper as per Scott's recommendation.

I was wondering what the fastest AIWB draw with a good hit (let's say 8" gong at 10 yards) has been? Like what's the limit on draw speed?

EDIT:

Reading this post (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43200-Miami-vice-card-challenge-Mozambique&p=1074427&viewfull=1#post1074427) made me remember: from the hands up (head level, non dominant hand ahead of dominant hand) I was grabbing my shirt at the belly button instead of the hem of my shirt as I typically do. I was wearing a Velocity Systems Rugby shirt which I actually like a lot. Sometimes I pull too much and the shirt will meet the stretch limit and pop out of my hand, fouling the draw. Not so with the rugby shirt.