2012-2013 pistol-training.com Endurance Test Gun ANNOUNCED!

[ToddG]

The 2012-2013 Endurance Test Gun Guessing Game

First person to post a screen shot of the solved puzzle wins a $100 gift certificate toward any pistol-training.com class. You can find the puzzle HERE (http://pistol-training.com/excluded-pages/2012-2013-endurance-test-gun-puzzle).


Naming the make and/or model of the pistol is not necessary to win the contest. Only completing the puzzle will make one eligible for the prize.
Screen shot must be posted to this thread.
The email address you used when registering here at PF must be valid. If we cannot reach the first person who posts a completed photo, the contest ends without a winner being determined.
No purchase necessary. Contest and offer void where prohibited by law.


http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/12-13-testgun.jpg (http://pistol-training.com/excluded-pages/2012-2013-endurance-test-gun-puzzle)

(note: the puzzle requires Flash to see and solve, so if you rely on an iOS device or similarly Flash-poor device for your web browsing, you're out of luck)

[rsa-otc]

This is playing dirty Todd. :p

[NickA]

Todd's new site will also be announced - suspensebuilding-training.
Can't wait to hear what this will be.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[F-Trooper05]

This thread reminds me of my girlfriend on prom night. You tease.

[Savage Hands]

I think that ToddG guy should be banned!

[EVP]

Dang it..........the suspense!

[Failure2Stop]

XDM


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[Jay Cunningham]

XDM


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

YESSS!!!1!!1

[orionz06]

XDM


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Was my guess as well but now you got me wondering... Mind games.

[steve]

That gives you the weekend to choose between the Taurus and the Hi-Point.

[VolGrad]

Caracal is my guess.

[Savage Hands]

My guess is either the FNH FNS or a 1911 :eek:

[LOKNLOD]

I kind of hope whatever it is fails early and often... I don't need Todd luring me into some trap of thinking there's "something better" out there I just have to try out.

[JeffJ]

Full blown open gun in a race holster concealed under a SMF vest:cool:

[JDM]

That gives you the weekend to choose between the Taurus and the Hi-Point.

Awesome.

[ToddG]

Because we love you guys, a photo of the next test gun will be posted on Saturday.

[tmoore912]

Whatever it is...............it needs to have a failure at 777.:p

[CR78]

My guess is [...] the FNH FNS[...]

[Savage Hands]

Because we love you guys, a photo of the next test gun will be posted on Saturday.


The 19th? You're not going to post a small piece of it ala-S&W are ya? If you do than I'm changing my guess to the Shield :p

[ToddG]

The 19th? You're not going to post a small piece of it ala-S&W are ya? If you do than I'm changing my guess to the Shield :p

I promise you'll be able to figure out exactly what it is from the photo.

[Comedian]

Im thinkin FNS.

[bdcheung]

some 1911 variant is my guess.

[NickA]

I'm thinking some kind of DA/SA, maybe a SIG.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[will_1400]

I'm guessing it's his old friend: the Beretta 92.

[MD7305]

I'm guessing a Wilson Combat 1911. I have no idea but it would an interesting turn after the previous tests. Otherwise, can't wait to be teased again on Saturday:D!

[Sheep Have Wool]

One of the SIG E2s? A PPQ? If I'm not mistaken, the endurance gun is Todd's "always" gun that he uses in classes/for carry, so it's not likely to be something that he expects to fail all the time.

[Al T.]

My prediction is that it will be an FN.

[DanH]

I like the idea of a 1911 being sent through the sausage grinder, but I would find it even more interesting to see one of the cheaper guns available like the Sig p250 or even a *gag* HiPoint, Bersa, or Taurus.

[Mr_White]

Maybe it's that Russian Glock-like thing.

[JBP55]

Shield.

[BWT]

My guess? FNS.

He likes FN, he's even eyed them a couple of times. His relationship with Erik Lund.


http://pistol-training.com/archives/6506

I don't think it'll be a shield for one reason, who in God's name wants to run an Endurance test for 50,000 rounds with a 6 round magazine? How would he teach the classes he's currently teach? It would abandon the way he's concealed firearms for the past three years? And he's already done a M&P.

No, FN's the new kid on the block, that's also a quality manufacturer.

There's no massive amounts of data on their guns, and they probably want their new gun to be ran, so they're probably willing to help with the test.

And.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/press/test_eval.asp

They want media on their guns.

Clearly, it's on their website, with the phone number of who to call for T&E guns.

They'd be an idiot not to give this gun to ToddG.

Look at what it did for the Glock 17 Gen4, and HK's guns.

The only people who don't want to put their guns in the hands of ToddG, IMHO, are people that are afraid of what will be seen in testing.

If I'm wrong, well then... atleast I was convincing.

ETA: This gun fits the profile of what Todd likes... It's a doublestack Polymer framed 9mm that's the new kid on the block from a company that's got a good reputation. It's the gun I'd want to test.

[orionz06]

Caracal also seems to be pimping the shit outta their gun too...

Maybe it's a CZ?

[Steven C.]

(placeholder, check back on Monday)

:eek::p:confused::cool::cool::cool:

correction: Photo of the test gun will be posted on Saturday

Which Saturday?

[LittleLebowski]

FN 5.7mm

[orionz06]

FN 5.7mm

So powerful the FAST will be altered to 3 shots to the 8" circle when using 5.7x28.

[VolGrad]

I'd forgotten about the FNS and the XDm.

I revise my guess on the gun. Here's my three guesses, in order ... most to least likely.

FNS
XDm
Caracal

Guns I'd like to see tested, in order ... most liked to see to just plain interested.

Shield (because I have one)
FNS (because I'm somewhat interested in one)
Caracal (because they are so new, are getting lots of press right now with JJ and Pincus, etc. and they are just plain interesting)
some variant of 1911, prob a Springfield Armory production variant of some sort as they are the better end of the production 1911 spectrum (because this would really drive P-T.com folks nuts) :)


PS If it's the FNS and someone has advanced knowledge ... please PM me so I can go find one to buy before all the rest of P-F.com buys them up. It's going to happen with whatever gun Todd has chosen ... that's a given. :cool:

[NEPAKevin]

Rhino 20DS

[ToddG]

please PM me so I can go find one to buy before all the rest of P-F.com buys them up. It's going to happen with whatever gun Todd has chosen ... that's a given. :cool:

That will not be the case this time...

[JV_]

Chiappa Rhino!

[John Ralston]

I want your old Gadget ; )

[JonInWA]

Wait for it...Browning/FN Hi Power!

Best, Jon

[VolGrad]

That will not be the case this time...
Now I really am intrigued. I'm going to throw out the FNS and XDm guesses then.

I'm sticking with my original guess of Caracal. That's my final answer.

Round count before fail? I guess that was the question.

11,257

[abu fitna]

It seems like we may be treated to the spectacle of fail, likely calling out something where known problems have been denied or downplayed. Given recent goings on in the industry, it seems that the SIG P250 may be one candidate for such consideration. Alternatively, something in the Tauri world would be amusing as well. One may also look to the Px4 family.

But would Todd be just cruel here, beating up a known weakling? Perhaps not so much... I would think that a real effort to document a hard test series is worth just as much when the weapon falls down as when it runs to the insane round counts of prior test guns. Knowing how far one can trust something from the less than unshakeable spectrum of the armory has its value, especially when it may be a weapon that folks have no choice carrying.

And one can hope that such demonstrations may serve to remind the industry of the need for integrity in the marketing and delivery of a weapons system that is intended for use in the gravest moment. So if it is cruelty to come, then it may be the surgeon's cruelty... cutting dead tissue before necrosis spreads.

Should be worth watching in any event.

[NickA]

That will not be the case this time...

So either TLG is going to carry something nobody else would want to, or it's an unreleased prototype kind of deal. So I'll revise my guess to Taurus Mares Leg or striker fired HK.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[Savage Hands]

My new guess is Todd will buy something that will obviously fail quickly, like a Hi-Point :D


Though I don't like them, I'd like to see an XDm.

[Chris Rhines]

The Caracal is not on the MD Handgun Roster, and unless someone else has submitted one already, it won't be available until August.

I can't see any gun companies letting a factory prototype out in the wild, even to an SME of Todd's stature.

I'm going with the FNS.

-C

[ToddG]

I can't see any gun companies letting a factory prototype out in the wild, even to an SME of Todd's stature.

Is that a fat guy joke? :cool:

[Joe in PNG]

It could be:
-One of those ATI Turk Beretta clones...
-A Steyr M-9...
-A Sig 2022...
-One of those Israeli CZ clones...

But I'm thinking it's going to be one of those twin 1911's

[NEPAKevin]

I'm sticking with my original guess of Caracal. That's my final answer.


There was a story on Gunnuts that JJ Racaza joined team Caracal happens to sell a AIWB holster thingy...

[Mitchell, Esq.]

that gives you the weekend to choose between the taurus and the hi-point.

go bulls deep!

[Dropkick]

I'm going to guess Walter PPS.

[vaglocker]

Draco

[guymontag]

That will not be the case this time...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/M1942_liberator.jpg/300px-

Am I right?


I find enough endurance/usage/high round count information present on the Walther P99/PPQ line, although after reading Dropkick's post I think the PPS would be interesting. I'm apathetic toward other slim, low capacity pistols.

Now pistols lacking a stellar reputation, by Todd's own account, like the CZ-75B or PX-4, or by other accounts, like the XD or Steyr M9 would interest me. Newcomers such as the FNS or Caracal would be alright.

I'll still follow no matter what the hardware.

[orionz06]

It's almost Saturday...

[Odin Bravo One]

It's almost Saturday...

Been Saturday here for nearly 7 hours...........

[orionz06]

You would think with all those watches telling time might be a strong suit.

[BCL]

It's Saturday...

[ToddG]

It's Saturday...

Indeed it is. Might want to check the original post... the one that was left as a placeholder, remember? :cool:

[Robert Mitchum]

I have one.
Not one Malfunction in 5 years..
http://www.baggetta.com/pebooks/Colt%2045%20Puzzle/Colt%2045%20Puzzle%20Image%20Thumb.gif

[Irfan]

I think I see some screws on the puzzle...it's difficult to solve but doesn't look very "polymer" to me. :)

[jmjames]

Well... I know it's a Springer so far... :D

J.Ja

[Serpico1985]

some sort of springfield that takes grip screws.... but too lazy for figure out the puzzle

[jmjames]

It gets a lot easier when you know what it is. :D

J.Ja

[F-Trooper05]

A 1911, Todd??? Damn, why did I guess 6,000 rounds to the first failure!!! :mad:

[Savage Hands]

I want to finish it but I need to go to bed :mad:

[jmjames]

Argh,half done and it just locked all the pieces I had done already into place... hope no pieces I need are stuck underneath!

J.Ja

[JRL]

The race is on!

[jmjames]

Ohh, it has a rail...

J.Ja

[Irfan]

There is a part with "FIELD" written on it! We all know now what it is!

[klugtrane]

http://www.leahandalan.com/wp-content/sa_1911.jpg

[F-Trooper05]

Sh*t, beat by a new guy! Congrats.

Is it a .45?

[GJM]

http://www.leahandalan.com/wp-content/sa_1911.jpg

1) Thanks, you saved me another hour or two of fiddling.

2) Will be interesting to see how that feels appendix.

[GOP]

Yes! I can't wait to see this thing tested! This is going to be sweet

[jmjames]

Great work!

I had JUST gotten the gun itself done and was working on the background stuff...

J.Ja

[klugtrane]

Sh*t, beat by a new guy! Congrats.

Thanks. Happened to check my rss reader at the perfect time. Long time lurker, first time poster.

[BCA]

http://i.imgur.com/wTI3F.png

Dang, I was right behind you! Congrats man!

[DanH]

so close ;p
grats Klug

[jslaker]

Whaaaat? Change your mind about the "no more .45s" after the HK45, Todd?

[SecondsCount]

Congrats, now I can go to bed.

That photo has what looks to be a Novak stamp on muzzle end of the slide. Which begs the question- Is it a custom and is it a 9mm?

[jmjames]

If I had been working instead of playing a video game for the first time in forever, I would have seen this an hour earlier... ah, the irony! :D

J.Ja

[DanH]

If I had been working instead of playing a video game for the first time in forever, I would have seen this an hour earlier... ah, the irony! :D

J.Ja

lol yeah I was semi-playing WoW at the time too ;p

[ToddG]

(puzzle)

Congratulations! I started putting the puzzle together as soon as I announced it, and I had the original photo as a guide. I still didn't come close to finishing it as fast as you did. Very impressive. Expect an email within the next few days regarding your gift certificate.


Whaaaat? Change your mind about the "no more .45s" after the HK45, Todd?

No, I have not. :cool:


That photo has a Novak stamp on muzzle end of the slide.

No, it does not. :cool:

[jmjames]

This model does not exist on the S-A Web site...

All of the models with rails have forward cocking serrations.

None of the models with magwells have rails.

Something from the custom shop?

New model?

J.Ja

[jslaker]

This model does not exist on the S-A Web site...

All of the models with rails have forward cocking serrations.

None of the models with magwells have rails.

Something from the custom shop?

New model?

J.Ja

Outside of the 3" EMP series, the Loaded SS and SS Target in 9mm and the Mil Spec in .38 Super are the only things in S-A's catalog PDF in anything other than .45 ACP. No light rail on any of those...

[ToddG]

New model?

Springfield has, in fact, produced hundreds of pistols with mag wells, rails, and no forward cocking serrations... all extremely similar to the two I'm getting.

[JRL]

Professional Operator is the closest thing I can find

[zen_grasshopper]

Warren Tactical logo on the front of the slide, and obviously Warren Tactical sights on the gun.

[Default.mp3]

Professional Operator is the closest thing I can find

Yeah, looks like a PC9111LR. Would make a lot of sense, too, since that, and the PC9111, are generally touted as being the cheapest production 1911s that are duty worthy. Plus, the TRP has too short a rail to be it, IMO.

[Corlissimo]

Ahh Crap!

Congrats klug!

771

[Odin Bravo One]

So when is the first "All 45 All Day" shoot in Culpeper going to be?

I'll go ahead and volunteer to pick up the brass for everyone.

[bdcheung]

My guess is either the FNH FNS or a 1911 :eek:

Nice guess!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[m91196]

Scott was running a 9mm at the Indoor Nationals, while ironing out some issues that he had in a safe area I noticed an intriguing front site set up.
Perhaps this is on the PT gun.

[tmoore912]

OH WOW...........this is going to be interesting. Can't wait.

[DanH]

now for the real contest...how many times will it be cleaned during the test?

[NickA]

A 1911, a puzzle that can't be solved on iOS devices... I demand to know who this guy is and what he's done with Todd Green ;)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[Nephrology]

Are these 2 1911s going to be as they came from the factory? I.E. no smith work before you start shooting them, etc?

I am curious because I do have a soft spot for 1911s in my heart, still. I have an RIA that I bought when I turned 21 (of course) that has been quite reliable and a joy to shoot (yes, even as an RIA!), but for reasons that probably don't need explaining I have not really shot it since buying into Glocks and certainly do not carry the thing. It was, however, a nice "preview" of the 1911 platform and there is still much about it that I like.

I would, at some point, like to get involved with 1911s again, however, but I hedge at the idea of shelling out astronomical sums just to get one working, as many people seem to suggest is necessary, so I am curious as to how this will go over. If you can demonstrate that an off the shelf 1911 will work without having to send it to a smith from the get-go, I might be looking into them sooner rather than later.

[tmoore912]

Just for a second..................I thought that TLG was going to be testing the new Rock River Arms polymer 1911.:D

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/1911_poly.gif

[Savage Hands]

Nice guess!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks!


So Todd, this is coming from the Pro Shop correct?

[LittleLebowski]

So when is the first "All 45 All Day" shoot in Culpeper going to be?

I'll go ahead and volunteer to pick up the brass for everyone.

In about 5 years, you'll have your very little assistant to pick up brass :D

[ToddG]

So, the details:

My original plan, after talking extensively with SLG and Jason Burton of Heirloom Precision (http://www.heirloomprecision.com/), was to have the Springfield Custom Shop build me a pair of FBI-spec 1911s, but in 9mm. The Springfield Professional Model is, as SLG pointed out to me, the most heavily tested and proven modern 1911 available. Dave Williams from Springfield's Custom Shop provided me with details including a delivery date that was well into next year. But he also suggested another possibility...

Every year, Scott Warren has a limited run of custom guns built by Springfield. They begin life as 9mm TRPs but are assembled by the Custom Shop with parts selected by Scott. They are, coincidentally, the same concept as the gun I wanted: a 9mm version of the FBI SWAT gun or, more specifically, the FBI HRT 1911 which has a slightly different color scheme.

Features:
• Select fit slide to frame
• Carbon steel light rail frame
• SA stainless steel ramped barrel and bushing 9mm
• Polish feed ramp & throat barrel
• Unique three line serrations on top of slide
• Fitted speed trigger w/ tuned 4.5 lb. trigger pull
• Tuned for total reliability
• Lowered & flared ejection port
• Extended ejector
• Tuned & polished extractor
• GI recoil system
• Hand fit Warren Tactical style beavertail grip safety
• Extended ambi thumb safety
• Warren Tactical low mount combat sights w/dovetail Fiber Optic front sight
• Custom fit S&A magwell checkered @ 25lpi
• 25lpi front strap checkering
• “Carry Bevel” complete pistol
• Warren Tactical custom grips
• Two tone black and OD green Armory Kote finish
• 2 Premium magazines with slam pads
• Unique Warren Tactical logo
• WT prefix serial number

772

Mine are coming with just a few small differences. First, obviously, Scott is installing night sights on my guns. Second, having spent a few weeks shooting hundreds of rounds per day through real FBI HRT pistols, I requested that the checkering on the frontstrap and mainspring housing get blunted from their normal awesome with gloves and/or if you like to bleed while you shoot level of sharpness. At some point, I also expect to put Lasergrips on the pistol which may require a modified right hand "ambi" safety lever.

This is obviously a tremendous departure for me compared to past tests. But of all the guns I see in classes, the 1911 is by far the type I have the least personal experience with. I've never been a fan, and it will take an awful lot to convince me. But it should make for an interesting time...

[Jac]

I'm looking forward to this... Does the testing start Monday, then?

Have you got leather/kydex already, and will you be staying appendix?

[Nephrology]

So, the details:

My original plan, after talking extensively with SLG and Jason Burton of Heirloom Precision (http://www.heirloomprecision.com/), was to have the Springfield Custom Shop build me a pair of FBI-spec 1911s, but in 9mm. The Springfield Professional Model is, as SLG pointed out to me, the most heavily tested and proven modern 1911 available. Dave Williams from Springfield's Custom Shop provided me with details including a delivery date that was well into next year. But he also suggested another possibility...

Every year, Scott Warren has a limited run of custom guns built by Springfield. They begin life as 9mm TRPs but are assembled by the Custom Shop with parts selected by Scott. They are, coincidentally, the same concept as the gun I wanted: a 9mm version of the FBI SWAT gun or, more specifically, the FBI HRT 1911 which has a slightly different color scheme.

Features:
• Select fit slide to frame
• Carbon steel light rail frame
• SA stainless steel ramped barrel and bushing 9mm
• Polish feed ramp & throat barrel
• Unique three line serrations on top of slide
• Fitted speed trigger w/ tuned 4.5 lb. trigger pull
• Tuned for total reliability
• Lowered & flared ejection port
• Extended ejector
• Tuned & polished extractor
• GI recoil system
• Hand fit Warren Tactical style beavertail grip safety
• Extended ambi thumb safety
• Warren Tactical low mount combat sights w/dovetail Fiber Optic front sight
• Custom fit S&A magwell checkered @ 25lpi
• 25lpi front strap checkering
• “Carry Bevel” complete pistol
• Warren Tactical custom grips
• Two tone black and OD green Armory Kote finish
• 2 Premium magazines with slam pads
• Unique Warren Tactical logo
• WT prefix serial number

772

Mine are coming with just a few small differences. First, obviously, Scott is installing night sights on my guns. Second, having spent a few weeks shooting hundreds of rounds per day through real FBI HRT pistols, I requested that the checkering on the frontstrap and mainspring housing get blunted from their normal awesome with gloves and/or if you like to bleed while you shoot level of sharpness. At some point, I also expect to put Lasergrips on the pistol which may require a modified right hand "ambi" safety lever.

This is obviously a tremendous departure for me compared to past tests. But of all the guns I see in classes, the 1911 is by far the type I have the least personal experience with. I've never been a fan, and it will take an awful lot to convince me. But it should make for an interesting time...


Sweet.

One question : why 9mm? Any reason beyond the savings? and do you anticipate (based on what you may have learned while doing your research) that this will result in a less reliable handgun than its .45 caliber counterparts?

[ToddG]

I'm looking forward to this... Does the testing start Monday, then?

No. The guns have not been completed yet. It will be a while before the test begins. In the meantime, I expect to reach at least 75k on the Glock 17.


Have you got leather/kydex already, and will you be staying appendix?

I'll definitely be staying with appendix carry. I'm hoping to get one of John Ralston's new aiwb rigs for it (which have been tested extensively in conjunction with a Springfield Professional Operator) as well as hopefully a Keeper from prdator. I've already got mag pouches on the way from Custom Carry Concepts.

Speaking of mags, a nice supply of 10rd 9mm magazines from Wilson and Tripp are also inbound.



One question : why 9mm? Any reason beyond the savings? and do you anticipate (based on what you may have learned while doing your research) that this will result in a less reliable handgun than its .45 caliber counterparts?

That's three questions. You're fired.

9mm because, as mentioned earlier, I've done the "year of high volume .45" thing and it was painful. Also, while the difference is small, there is a serious mental line in the sand for me between a 7/8 round magazine and a 10rd mag. I'm already going to be slightly below my own personal comfort level in terms of on-board ammo (12+1 being my personal magic number). And let's face it, I'm just a 9mm kind of guy.

Regarding reliability, Jason Burton of Heirloom Precision (http://www.heirloomprecision.com/) spent a considerable amount of time discussing the issues with me and convinced me that a well put together 9mm 1911 should run as reliably as a well put together .45 1911. (I would have loved to get a pair of Jason's guns, but spec'd out as I wanted them they would have cost almost as much as a year's worth of our mortgage and my wife is just crazy unreasonable about stuff like that)

In addition, I had a chance to discuss the project at length with Ken Hackathorn. Ken has a fondness for the 9mm 1911 and provided some great insights into running it day to day.

[JHC]

No. The guns have not been completed yet. It will be a while before the test begins. In the meantime, I expect to reach at least 75k on the Glock 17.



I'll definitely be staying with appendix carry. I'm hoping to get one of John Ralston's new aiwb rigs for it (which have been tested extensively in conjunction with a Springfield Professional Operator) as well as hopefully a Keeper from prdator. I've already got mag pouches on the way from Custom Carry Concepts.

Speaking of mags, a nice supply of 10rd 9mm magazines from Wilson and Tripp are also inbound.

Wow. Just . . . wow.

Edit: more wow.

[YVK]

9 mm 1911. I am looking forward to this one.

I am also looking forward to a new p-t.com class, "AFHF with BUG".

[LGChris]

In addition, I had a chance to discuss the project at length with Ken Hackathorn. Ken has a fondness for the 9mm 1911 and provided some great insights into running it day to day.

Hah, I wish I had known that when I took his class last year. I had a 9mm 1911 hidden away in my range bag as a backup gun, but I was afraid I'd be kicked out of the class for being a heretic if I brought it out.

Consequently, I sold it (an STI Trojan) because an M&P9 with every bell and whistle I could imagine (okay, maybe not the reflex sight) still cost less than the "basic" 1911. I'm hoping to see lots of problems with the new PT test guns so I don't get tempted to go the 1911 route again.

BUT WE WANTS IT, PRECIOUS

Quiet, you!

[Savage Hands]

I'm impressed!!!


My prediction though as I've seen with the .45 HRT guns that use Nowlin barrels, the barrel will crack or the lugs will shear off ~30k rounds.

I could be wrong but I'm sticking to it :cool:

[Jac]

Forgot to ask, by the way, but will Springfield Armory be involved in this at all? Or are they just selling a pair of pistols to some guy named Todd?

[BLR]

Speaking of mags, a nice supply of 10rd 9mm magazines from Wilson and Tripp are also inbound.



While the SA (Metalform) mags have fixed floorplates, they are the benchmark in 9mm mags.

Then comes Tripp.

I've been largely unhappy with WC "subcaliber" mags. But that is just my experience.

But bravo Todd! 'Bout time a 1911 got mixed up here.

[ToddG]

While the SA (Metalform) mags have fixed floorplates, they are the benchmark in 9mm mags.

You're the first person that's said so to me. They're 9rd, yes?


Then comes Tripp.

I've been largely unhappy with WC "subcaliber" mags. But that is just my experience.

The Wilson ETM mag has been universally recommended to me by the people I trust with the most experience running/building 9mm 1911s. The only complaint I've heard is that they will not always drop free when there are rounds still in the mag, and that the Tripp mags solve that problem.

The gun is coming with a pair of SA mags, and I've got a dozen Wilson ETM and half a dozen Tripp mags on the way.


But bravo Todd! 'Bout time a 1911 got mixed up here. Can I ask: who, what, how, and why to the caliber choice?

I answered the caliber question above. I don't understand the other questions.

[BLR]

[QUOTE=blr;72147]While the SA (Metalform) mags have fixed floorplates, they are the benchmark in 9mm mags.[/quoted]

You're the first person that's said so to me. They're 9rd, yes? Yes. IIRC.



The Wilson ETM mag has been universally recommended to me by the people I trust with the most experience running/building 9mm 1911s. The only complaint I've heard is that they will not always drop free when there are rounds still in the mag, and that the Tripp mags solve that problem.

The gun is coming with a pair of SA mags, and I've got a dozen Wilson ETM and half a dozen Tripp mags on the way.



I answered the caliber question above. I don't understand the other questions.

Yeah, sorry for the repeat on caliber - I read the thread too fast first time trough.

Here's the reason I prefer Tripps: Wilson mags were first 45 mags, then modified to sub-caliber. Keep that in mind. Second, SA fits slide stops very tightly. Without good strong springs, you may get failure to lock on empty. Though, I do not have the 9mm experience some do. My 1911s all "shoot major."

Tripp's 9mm were 9mms from the start. Metal followers that engage the slide stop more aggressively and better no-tip followers in my limited experience. That's why I use them exclusively for my 10mms and 38Supers.

But again, I'm far, far from a 9mm 1911 expert.

Cheers,

Bill

ETA: You might not notice a failure to lock back problem from the start by racking the slide back by hand. Again, this is 38S experience being translated to 9mm experience. YMMV.

[fuse]

So powerful the FAST will be altered to 3 shots to the 8" circle when using 5.7x28.

And no head shots. Because it would violate the Geneva Convention.

[orionz06]

And no head shots. Because it would violate the Geneva Convention.

Might see a sub 2 second FAST real soon then.

[BLR]

Todd - are you going to track magazines? In other words, at least I would be interested to follow problems as they relate to magazines. With ETMs it's easy, they have dots on the bottom you can put a dab of white out on.

Also, will you be doing a comparison of the ETM and Tripps?

FWIW - my 10mm "Pro Rail" gun feeds and ejects empties all day long. Now if I could only teach it to feed empties and eject live ammo I'd be set....;)

When you were familiarizing with the 45 Pro, did you find the grip safety disengaged properly for your grip? I usually tell the builder to go with a disengagement at 25% travel. Again, YMMV, but it truly sucks to not hit the palm swell right then wonder why your gun didn't go bang.

Anyway, I'll be following enthusiastically.

[tremiles]

Since you've got a pair of them coming, the answer to your to your 12+1 minimum problem is fairly straightforward, albeit heavy.

http://watchplayread.com/files/2009/08/dual-wield.PNG

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

[Serpico1985]

Congrats on your pick Todd. I think you must be given some credit for going with a gun/design that you are not that fond of for a second year in a row. Best of luck to you.

Two weapons handling/shooting related questions:

1- Do you think you will be able to do your typical reload method of pre-loading the slide release with the 1911? Seems like a pretty far reach and extended slide release levers are out of the question.

2- Do you think that shooting a 1911 for 50,000 rounds will affect your trigger manipulation skills/ability? As in do you think it's possible to develop bad habits shooting the 1911 trigger for so long? Kinda like when you had to "re-learn" recoil control with the HK45 coming from shooting so much 9mm.

[Robinson]

I am highly interested in this, as I have a 9mm SA Loaded Target model (currently undergoing the 2K round challenge).

For what it's worth, Metalform also makes 10-round magazines, which are the best I've tried -in my gun- so far. The 9-round Metalforms supplied with the gun worked fine too. My 10-round Wilson Combat mags do not always feed the first round from the magazine successfully. I think Metalform got the design right.

[John Ralston]

1) Thanks, you saved me another hour or two of fiddling.

2) Will be interesting to see how that feels appendix.


Actually, one of the SME's here at P-F.com carries one just like that appendix all the time...and he is like 5'-6".

[John Ralston]

I'll definitely be staying with appendix carry. I'm hoping to get one of John Ralston's new aiwb rigs for it (which have been tested extensively in conjunction with a Springfield Professional Operator)




Consider it done...should be on the way next week. :cool:

[Failure2Stop]

I am very interested to see how the 1911 trigger effects your press out.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[tacticianx]

oh well

[BWT]

I was DEAD wrong, pleasantly surprised.

I think this is going to be an interesting test. Who knows, maybe the in these two years we'll see that Glock perfection isn't exactly perfection and 1911 isn't as bad as we thought.

Good job branching out. I'm interested to see the test, just being honest with you... the magazines are the bane of a 1911, you've done well.

Honestly, You might need to replace the magazine springs in this test, that being said, I also don't know if 9mm magazines have similar issues as .45 ACP.

I'm excited for this test.

[GJM]

This is why I don't get it.

It is settled science that the most reliable configuration for a 1911 is steel and five inch. In my 1911 experience, it is harder to make a 9mm run. 9mm magazines seem less developed and more finicky than .45 magazines. A steel 1911 in 9 is a heavy, relatively low cap pistol. The 1911 trigger is very different from the Glock or HK in length of travel and how you shoot it (read press out). The 1911 requires a lot more expertise to work on than a Glock. While it has a thumb safety, it is a very short trigger for appendix carry. Todd professes to only love one pistol platform at a time.

I absolutely would understand if Todd got a 1911 to mess around with but carried a Glock or HK, but life is too short to waste a year carrying a heavy, low cap 9. This feels a lot to me like Coca-Cola's experiment with the "new Coke."

[ToddG]

1- Do you think you will be able to do your typical reload method of pre-loading the slide release with the 1911? Seems like a pretty far reach and extended slide release levers are out of the question.

No. I expect reloads to be one of the big losers in the test. Between needing to shift the gun in my hand to reach the mag button (instead of using my trigger finger as I do with the gen4 Glock, HKs, M&Ps, SIGs, and Berettas) and almost certainly needing to drop the slide with my support side thumb, I'd expect my average reload to drop a quarter of a second. The magwell will help, but extra steps are extra steps.


2- Do you think that shooting a 1911 for 50,000 rounds will affect your trigger manipulation skills/ability? As in do you think it's possible to develop bad habits shooting the 1911 trigger for so long? Kinda like when you had to "re-learn" recoil control with the HK45 coming from shooting so much 9mm.

It's funny you should ask that. When I spoke to Hackathorn last week he warned me that a year shooting a tuned 1911 trigger would "help you forget good trigger control" compared to the other guns I've used. My plan, at least for now, is to spend a little dedicated time each month with one other gun -- DA/SA, LEM, or SFA -- so that I don't completely and utterly forget how to pull a trigger.


Consider it done...should be on the way next week. :cool:

I'll have the holster before the gun, then. Excellent! SLG has been raving about how well his works.


I am very interested to see how the 1911 trigger effects your press out.

In theory, it shouldn't affect it much at all. The theory remains the same: prep the trigger during extension and break the shot at or near extension. In practice, obviously, the trigger should require far less prep but have a much more defined break that's not much lighter than my Glock. So as the saying goes, theory & practice are the same in theory, but not in practice.

[ToddG]

I absolutely would understand if Todd got a 1911 to mess around with but carried a Glock or HK, but life is too short to waste a year carrying a heavy, low cap 9. This feels a lot to me like Coca-Cola's experiment with the "new Coke."

None of the endurance tests begins with a plan to make it my most favoritestest pistol of all time ever. If it's (a) reliable and (b) shootable then I can live with it for a year. Maybe I'll feel it's inferior (given my personal preferences and needs) throughout the test, maybe I'll fall in love and never shoot any other type of gun again... you know, like I did with the LEM. :cool:

It's a gun that's going to force me to do a lot of things differently. That's interesting to me. And, I hope, interesting to the folks who follow these tests.

[BLR]

No. I expect reloads to be one of the big losers in the test. Between needing to shift the gun in my hand to reach the mag button (instead of using my trigger finger as I do with the gen4 Glock, HKs, M&Ps, SIGs, and Berettas) and almost certainly needing to drop the slide with my support side thumb, I'd expect my average reload to drop a quarter of a second. The magwell will help, but extra steps are extra steps.

I'm right handed. I use my left hand to manipulate the mag release as well as the slide and/or slide stop. I believe you'll lose more time shifting your shooting hand. At least, that has been my experience. ***Disclaimer: Still a learning student***

It's funny you should ask that. When I spoke to Hackathorn last week he warned me that a year shooting a tuned 1911 trigger would "help you forget good trigger control" compared to the other guns I've used. My plan, at least for now, is to spend a little dedicated time each month with one other gun -- DA/SA, LEM, or SFA -- so that I don't completely and utterly forget how to pull a trigger.

Slow fire is a valuable training aid for any platform. Regardless of trigger "style." The few IPSC GMs I've had the pleasure to talk with confirm the above, and stress how important slow fire practice is.

I'll have the holster before the gun, then. Excellent! SLG has been raving about how well his works.



In theory, it shouldn't affect it much at all. The theory remains the same: prep the trigger during extension and break the shot at or near extension. In practice, obviously, the trigger should require far less prep but have a much more defined break that's not much lighter than my Glock. So as the saying goes, theory & practice are the same in theory, but not in practice.

I really am excited about this.

[GJM]

None of the endurance tests begins with a plan to make it my most favoritestest pistol of all time ever. If it's (a) reliable and (b) shootable then I can live with it for a year. Maybe I'll feel it's inferior (given my personal preferences and needs) throughout the test, maybe I'll fall in love and never shoot any other type of gun again... you know, like I did with the LEM. :cool:

It's a gun that's going to force me to do a lot of things differently. That's interesting to me. And, I hope, interesting to the folks who follow these tests.

No doubt it will force you to do things differently, and no doubt it will be interesting. Some doubt if it will be reliable, using your standards of reliability, as opposed to "it must have been a bad magazine logic."

A soon as the test starts, can I borrow your Gadget? :)

[ToddG]

blr -- Dude, hard to quote stuff you put in the <quote> field. I'm sure I'll play with using my support hand to drop the mag, but because I do a fair bit of one-handed reload work I imagine I'll continue to standardize on using my strong hand.


Some doubt if it will be reliable, using your standards of reliability, as opposed to "it must have been a bad magazine logic."

Absolutely. The sad fact is that I'm at least as confident in my 9mm 1911 as I would be in a new Glock or M&P, and moreso than many of the other outlier suggestions people made. As we've joked so many times on this forum, the amount of tinkering, testing, and parts swapping needed for what should be dependable mass-produced guns has turned them into 1911s of sorts. So perhaps my 1911, given the expense and TLC it's receiving during manufacturing & building, will be a Glock of sorts. :cool:


A soon as the test starts, can I borrow your Gadget? :)

It's already in the mail to joshs... sorry!

[JFK]

This is going to be fun. I have such a 1911 bug, but I still end up in the tupperware for carry. I have never had a 9mm 1911 so I will be watching with interest.

[BLR]

blr -- Dude, hard to quote stuff you put in the <quote> field. I'm sure I'll play with using my support hand to drop the mag, but because I do a fair bit of one-handed reload work I imagine I'll continue to standardize on using my strong hand.


FWIW - that was the biggest PITA when I took Rogers class... single handed manipulation. The USPSA crowd I run with doesn't stress this like the "old" guys did from what I'm told. I hear stories about cool stages the current guys don't run. Like "The Guatemalan," "FBI Duel," and so on.

But just passing along stuff I wish I had heard when I got into 1911s. Also, any serious 1911 shooter will have a "white dot" on the mag well (or black for chrome/ss) as a "target" for reloads. We don't have that huge cavernous opening the hi-cap guys have.

Do you have a bushing wrench? Or do you not plan on taking it apart? :D

[Jason F]

Todd-

Super excited to see what comes of the 9mm 1911's during the endurance test. What's really got my interest piqued is your results with AIWB carry and a 5" as I've been thinking about it a lot lately after watching you run AIWB at AFHF, and then reading a ton here about it. Just actually got a Fricke Archangel in the mail this morning to start tinkering with AIWB. Having never carried AIWB before, I'm curious to see your reactions and thoughts in comparing the AIWB carry of the 5" 1911 to your M&P and Glock experiences.

Maybe I missed this- but why 2 weapons? Redundancy in case of breakage?

[ToddG]

Also, any serious 1911 shooter will have a "white dot" on the mag well (or black for chrome/ss) as a "target" for reloads. We don't have that huge cavernous opening the hi-cap guys have.

I've been marking the inside of my magwell for many, many years. I think I first learned it from Ernest Langdon.


Do you have a bushing wrench? Or do you not plan on taking it apart? :D

Part of my arrangement with Warren, actually, is that he has to spend an afternoon teaching me how to maintain the gun properly. :cool:


Maybe I missed this- but why 2 weapons? Redundancy in case of breakage?

Yes. I've always done that. M&P, P30, HK45, and G17 all involved having two. Just think about the ATL class earlier this year. I'd have been in hurtland if not for my spare G17.

[BLR]

I've been marking the inside of my magwell for many, many years. I think I first learned it from Ernest Langdon.

Part of my arrangement with Warren, actually, is that he has to spend an afternoon teaching me how to maintain the gun properly. :cool:

Yes. I've always done that. M&P, P30, HK45, and G17 all involved having two. Just think about the ATL class earlier this year. I'd have been in hurtland if not for my spare G17.

Mr. Langdon has given the shooting community quite a bit.

Do you know if you are getting a Nowlin barrel or the SA "Match" barrel?

I apologize in advance if you've touched on this, but what ammo?

[BWT]

You know one thing I've noticed about Todd, even though some manufacturer's give him some crap how he runs a gun without cleaning.

AFAIK, he's gone to an Armorer's school for most of the guns he's tested (if not all), I guess his time with Warren could be comparable to that.

[SecondsCount]

I think the gun will do fine as I have a stock 5" Springfield 1911 in 9mm, the one my son was shooting while we were playing around after class last year. He has since gone to the P30 light LEM and wait till I tell him you are going the other way. ;)

It runs well but I have never really "tested" it to see what it will withstand as it has always been a range toy. The magazines that came with it are 9 round Metalforms. They work well but he has had issues with the top round popping out when inserting a mag hard. It will be interesting to see how the Wilson and Tripp mags perform.

The biggest thing I see when shooting the 9mm is that the slide velocity is slower than a 45 which throws me a little bit at first. Did Jason say anything about a 4.25" "Commander" slide being a better fit for 9mm? I thought he had mentioned something about that before. Now that I am shooting more 9mm I am working on a 9mm Colt Commander for Mrs. SC so that I can pry that Dan Wesson CBOB out of her hands. :cool:

I also have a set of Crimson Trace laser grips sitting in the box if you would like to try before you buy.

[JHC]

In recent years the cautions about living with the 1911 have magnified into conventional wisdom of near certainty that these guns can't run with a modern design for reliability etc. It will be eye opening for some if the gun only needs lube to run 5K rds etc between cleanings; and runs like a top. The ten 1911s I've owned were not picky about being cleaned or very carefully lubed for that matter. If the gun is sound, it may run like an HK. And as a 9mm yet.

[JConn]

I can't believe this is actually happening... I am however, pretty excited to see the test happen, much more so than I was with the Glock. I have an illogical fascination/love for 1911s, but I just cannot afford to buy a good one, so I haven't made the plunge. Good luck.

[jslaker]

now for the real contest...how many times will it be cleaned during the test?

That number is too low to let us make an interesting number of guesses.

The amount of profanity Todd directs at the gun over the next year, though? :cool:

[Robinson]

Just a thought: Springfield has a tendency to ship 9mm 1911s with a very light recoil spring -- like 8 lbs or something. One of the first things I did was install a 12 lb spring. Of course this may not be an issue with the guns you receive.

[Tamara]

Second, having spent a few weeks shooting hundreds of rounds per day through real FBI HRT pistols, I requested that the checkering on the frontstrap and mainspring housing get blunted from their normal awesome with gloves and/or if you like to bleed while you shoot level of sharpness.

Pffft. I didn't have to tape up my pinkie and ring fingers until after lunch on TD2 with the Pro. :p

[Tamara]

I was going to ask whether it came with a ramped barrel, and what kind of magazines you'd be using, but then I actually, you know, read the thread and answered my questions.

I will be interested to see if you load a brand new Wilson ETM chock full of ammo, thumb the slide stop, and everybody loses the "When Will It Fail" contest right from the jump off. ;)

[YVK]

Thinking through it, I am not particularly interested how reliably these two springers are going to run. Either outcome won't change "common wisdom". They do run - critics of 1911 will say "of course, those are custom built and tuned puppies". They don' run - predictable response from proponents of 1911 will be "9mm doesn't belong to 1911".
I am however interested in many other aspects that have already been mentioned - pressouts, reloads etc., the actual running the gun experience.

As far as running 1911 is AIWB, the easy answer is that it can be done, harder than p30 etc., but number of people do it with 1911s, G34s etc.
I know you have a lot more own expertise and a lot more expert advisors on this, Todd, but from own moderate experience carrying a 1911 in appendix - think through a design of holster's sweat shield a bit. For reholstering safety you can always wedge your thumb betweeen hammer and firing pin, but another option is to keep the same thumb wedged under thumb safety until fully holstered. The latter option requires some sweat shield mods.

[lcarr]

This is why I don't get it.

It is settled science that the most reliable configuration for a 1911 is steel and five inch. In my 1911 experience, it is harder to make a 9mm run. 9mm magazines seem less developed and more finicky than .45 magazines. A steel 1911 in 9 is a heavy, relatively low cap pistol. The 1911 trigger is very different from the Glock or HK in length of travel and how you shoot it (read press out).



While I would never use the phrase "settled science"--all scientists ought to be fallabilists--I do agree with George that the 9mm 1911 has the reputation of being one of the most problematic 1911 variants. I love 1911s. For years now my carry gun has been an SVI Singlestack in .38 Super: I demonstrably shoot it better than any other "carry" gun I've tested.

That said, I was looking into getting a 9mm 1911 for my daughter, who prefers 1911s but doesn't enjoy recoil. When I read up on all of the problems very experienced shooters were having with 9mm 1911s, I abandoned the idea in favor of getting her a Super.

The preferred magazine for 9mm, as has already been mentioned in this thread, seems to be the Springfield/Metalform (http://www.dillonprecision.com/docs/march_07_metalform_mags.pdf), which was designed by Rob Leatham. It has a little shelf that assists in feeding. Even with good magazines, people have problems getting the guns to feed hollowpoints.

The Super, having been debugged in the 1911 since 1929, has none of these problems.

About the trigger, I again agree with George. It's sort of like cheating. That's why I like it so much. :p

PS Now that I know it's a 9mm 1911, I want to revise my first stoppage round count estimate to 20. :)

[Nephrology]

That's three questions. You're fired.


I am a scientist, not a mathematician. You can't expect me to know how to add.

[BLR]

This is why I don't get it.

It is settled science that the most reliable configuration for a 1911 is steel and five inch. In my 1911 experience, it is harder to make a 9mm run. 9mm magazines seem less developed and more finicky than .45 magazines. A steel 1911 in 9 is a heavy, relatively low cap pistol.

Last sentence - yep. I don't see the need value in a 9mm 1911 at all, but then again, I don't have arthritis. Lot's of people with weaker joints love the very soft shooting gun. But boy, they seem slow in cycling time compared to a 45.

Second to last - yep. They are. You start off with a disadvantage right from the get-go. When you significantly alter the length of the cartridge to feed, problems arise. The most common solution "of old" is to use 38S mags with a plastic stick in the back. The new, dedicated mags are quite nice I'm told. Again, not first hand - if I want soft shooting, I take out a 38S with factory loads. That's the low end of what a 1911 slide-barrel will handle reliably in recoil. A 9mm Commander would have been my first suggestion. But this will be interesting.

On reliable 9mm 1911s. Lots of people shoot IDPA with them and march through a match without a problem. It can be done. And SA is earning a reputation for making good ones. I have one (a loaded model) that was promptly converted to 9x23. Wicked fun gun, that.

A parting thought on this - a 9mm 1911 will be more lubrication sensitive than a 45. And especially so with a tightly fitted gun. That is, not "more" lubrication, but "correct" lubrication. Heavy grease will dissipate enough energy through shear on the rails to retard velocity enough to cause problems. The 45 has more energy to work with.

Just thinking.

[jmjames]

I am very curious why the 1911 over a CZ at this point, if the idea was 9mm. I think that there are probably a lot more CZ's in 9mm out there than 1911's, the CZ line in 9mm has a lot more market legs to it, and there's been a lot of contention over the reliability of the CZ's that I'm sure a lot of us (including myself) would love to see tested.

J.Ja

[saints75]

Cannot wait for this to began. I also cannot wait for the Glock test to end. I am look foward to reading how the glock did over all and see the new test begin.

[John Ralston]

I'll have the holster before the gun, then. Excellent! SLG has been raving about how well his works.




Well...although it really doesn't need to be said, SLG does know what he is talking about :p

[John Ralston]

I am very curious why the 1911 over a CZ at this point, if the idea was 9mm. I think that there are probably a lot more CZ's in 9mm out there than 1911's, the CZ line in 9mm has a lot more market legs to it, and there's been a lot of contention over the reliability of the CZ's that I'm sure a lot of us (including myself) would love to see tested.

J.Ja

I think the idea was to test a 1911...9mm is just Todd's choice of caliber for the gun.

[ToddG]

I also have a set of Crimson Trace laser grips sitting in the box if you would like to try before you buy.

Thanks. I'm expecting CTC to send me some, but I very much appreciate the offer for a loan.


I can't believe this is actually happening...

I told you!


Just a thought: Springfield has a tendency to ship 9mm 1911s with a very light recoil spring -- like 8 lbs or something. One of the first things I did was install a 12 lb spring. Of course this may not be an issue with the guns you receive.

No idea what spring will be in the gun, but the 12# has been recommended to me by a number of folks.


I will be interested to see if you load a brand new Wilson ETM chock full of ammo, thumb the slide stop, and everybody loses the "When Will It Fail" contest right from the jump off. ;)

Someone did, in fact, guess "1."


I am very curious why the 1911 over a CZ at this point, if the idea was 9mm. I think that there are probably a lot more CZ's in 9mm out there than 1911's, the CZ line in 9mm has a lot more market legs to it, and there's been a lot of contention over the reliability of the CZ's that I'm sure a lot of us (including myself) would love to see tested.

Because I wasn't interested in shooting a CZ. The tests aren't about "market legs," the tests are about guns that I want to test.

[Odin Bravo One]

So much for free .45 brass...................

[jstyer]

I haven't read this thread all the way through... so forgive me if this has already been touched on.

But the only bummer about you shooting a 9mm 1911 is that now whenever it chokes, all the haters are gonna say, "never would malfunctioned if it was a .45"

Which makes me cry inside.

[ToddG]

There is no way this test could or should be seen as proof that 1911s are unreliable. If the gun has problems -- which I do not anticipate given its pedigree -- then critics would rightly point out it's far from demonstrative of the "true" M1911A1. If the gun does run well, though, it will be educational for quite a few folks... myself included.

[DocGKR]

Thank you for taking a risk and making an unconventional selection. I am definitely looking forward to you running a 1911 and seeing your take on gunhandling technique.

Having carried a 1911 from 1986 through the end of 2010, I can state that they are VERY easy to carry AIWB, perhaps more so than any other pistol I have used:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7355&filename=GKR%20AIWB%201911%20DCU.jpg

[BN]

Todd,

The Tripp mags have a little bit of "give" that makes it a little easier to insert a full 10 round mag with the slide forward.

I've shot a couple of the Warren guns. Nice. :)

Bill

[JSGlock34]

I haven't read this thread all the way through... so forgive me if this has already been touched on.

But the only bummer about you shooting a 9mm 1911 is that now whenever it chokes, all the haters are gonna say, "never would malfunctioned if it was a .45"

Which makes me cry inside.

Sure, 1911 purists can dismiss the test results because of the caliber choice. Personally I'm less interested in the endurance/reliability aspects of the testing. This is more of a custom niche pistol than a production service weapon, unlike the other pistol-training.com endurance pistols.

I'll admit that I'm a bit curious to see the maintenance schedule, as the other endurance pistols required shockingly little TLC, and 1911s have garnered the reputation for requiring far more attention.

But I'm far more interested in what insights Todd will share about shooting a 1911 than what this pistol has to tell us about being shot.

[Kimura]

confident in my 9mm 1911 as I would be in a new Glock or M&P, and moreso than many of the other outlier suggestions people made. As we've joked so many times on this forum, the amount of tinkering, testing, and parts swapping needed for what should be dependable mass-produced guns has turned them into 1911s of sorts. So perhaps my 1911, given the expense and TLC it's receiving during manufacturing & building, will be a Glock of sorts. :cool:

I can't remember who, but during a pistol discussion on M4, someone mentioned that with a 1911 at least you know what you what you need to do with it to make it run correctly. With the other pistols, meaning Glock etc, you don't really know anymore. It really does seem to be the running sentiment of the moment. Although it's too bad. A few companies had things going really well and I understand profit and loss as I worked for a manufacturer of a different product at one time, but it seems like striking a balance would be a better idea for the long term.

Very interesting choice. Can't wait until it starts for all the reasons mentioned. The gun itself is interesting, but for me, I'm more interested in seeing how or even if it affects you're shooting of other pistols.

Great forum and a great website. I learn something new every week here.

[Timbonez]

DocGKR, what holster is that? Thanks.

[DocGKR]

As discussed previously, it is a holster (APX-IWB) Lou Alessi originally made over a decade ago; it has a slight reverse FBI cant that worked very well for AIWB--the only potential downside of the Alessi holster was the plastic "Talon" clip that secured it to the belt--although to be honest none ever broke or caused any problems for us. It remains the most comfortable AIWB holster I have ever used.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7353&filename=Alessi%20APX-IWB.jpg

[jslaker]

Sure, 1911 purists can dismiss the test results because of the caliber choice. Personally I'm less interested in the endurance/reliability aspects of the testing. This is more of a custom niche pistol than a production service weapon, unlike the other pistol-training.com endurance pistols.

I'll admit that I'm a bit curious to see the maintenance schedule, as the other endurance pistols required shockingly little TLC, and 1911s have garnered the reputation for requiring far more attention.

But I'm far more interested in what insights Todd will share about shooting a 1911 than what this pistol has to tell us about being shot.

I'll echo this. I'll also add that I suspect the technique changes required due to the 1911 ergos will result in Todd not setting any new PRs with this gun. I'd be glad for him to prove me wrong, though. :D

[Tamara]

Someone did, in fact, guess "1."

Yes, but the prize goes to the guess that is closest without going over, and "1" is over "0". ;)

(I'm only saying this because in my experience the single most common failure mode for undersprung ramped-barrel 9x19mm 1911s is the fully-loaded mag not allowing the slide to close on the first round, fixed by the "tap" of a "tap-rack-bang". Not that I necessarily expect yours to do this, but if someone asked me to bet on how a random 9x19mm 1911 would choke, that'd be my guess... :D )

[johnemckenzie]

As DocGKR has said, I am curious to see the difference or lack there of between your performance with SA 1911 against your previous guns. Furthermore, I am looking forward to seeing what gunhandling techniques and pistol-forum doctrine you will need to adapt for this platform. I am very interested in seeing how "old ironsides" holds up, but that is a secondary issue for me.

[LittleLebowski]

So much for free .45 brass...................

I might have some for ya..... Not much but let me look around.

[Andy T]

About a year ago I decided to give the whole "1911 thing" a try. However, having standardized on 9mm as a pistol caliber, I wanted one in 9mm as well. I was able to find a good deal on a used STI Ranger II.
Unfortunately, my experience with it was rather short. While it ran fine for the little amount of rounds I put through it, I figured that it was just too different from the Glocks/Kahr I am used to, as well as too heavy for carry - for me.
As a result, I sold after having owned it for about 3 months. I did learn a lot about 1911 and all the little tweaks one must check in order to get them working reliably.
When it came to magazines, I bought two types of Metalform 9mm magazines. The 9 rounders with fixed floor plates and the 10 rounders with removeable floor plates. The 9 rounders proved reliable and worked well. The 10 rounders didn't lock the slide open on the last shot. When disassembled, the magazine spring was the same between the 9 and 10 rounders.
Todd, can you share some of the tips from Ken Hackathorn to get a 9mm 1911 running well?

[TCinVA]

I think a lot of people would be very interested in a 9mm 1911 pistol that actually worked. If the test goes well Springfield may just sell a bunch of them.

[jmi786]

I am having more trouble with screen shot than the puzzle!!!

[orionz06]

I think a lot of people would be very interested in a 9mm 1911 pistol that actually worked. If the test goes well Springfield may just sell a bunch of them.

I agree to an extent but it seems that the CZ75, who the hell knows which variant, might offer everything but the single stack and lower capacity of a 9mm 1911. Then there are the STI's... Don't know too much about them but a friend in Canadia swears by his and he shoots the hell out of it.

[Timbonez]

I think a lot of people would be very interested in a 9mm 1911 pistol that actually worked. If the test goes well Springfield may just sell a bunch of them.

I agree, and my interest is piqued. I ordered a NH GRP 5" in 9mm in February 2011, and when I returned from my deployment last August it was waiting for me. I bought one simply to use as a more cost effective shooter compared to my .45 ACP 1911s. Its performance has been very good in the mere 2280 rounds that I have put through it in these past 8 months. Magazine selection is very important in my limited experience with one pistol. I had feeding issues initially until I switched magazines to the aforementioned Springfield-Metalforms mentioned by BLR. I have also had good experience with 2 Colt marked mags (also Metalform, but not exactly the same design specced by Springfield). I might end up trying a Tripp mag to see how it works out.

Maybe I'll put an order for another 9mm 1911 by NH or Wilson before my next deployment.

[GJM]

The Tripp magazines made an enormous difference in reliability with my 10mm 1911's.

I will bet a dollar, that magazine issues become a recurring theme in Todd's reports on the new pistols. How many modern service pistols today come without a specified magazine?

[faksen]

I have a S&W SW1911 Pro in 9 mm with 10 round Wilson combat mags. Gun is build for IPSC competitions, with a 980 gram trigger jobb, Dawson Precision 1911 ICE no gap mag well (altered with to 35 mm) and accompanied magpads.

Do to illness = no training, the round count is only about 1000 = i dont compete with it so far.

With reload ammo made to powerfactor of about 128 and a IMSI 10 pound recoil spring (and a buffer) the gun was wounderfull to shoot. The spring was to weak, when relaoding the gun from emty the slide not always go to battery. When shooting the gun, no problem. I have now changed the recoil spring to IMSI 12,5 pound, no problems but only about 200 rounds with this set up. I wait for a 11 pound IMSI spring, will test it before deciding what is the final set up.

[faksen]

Wilson combat mags - you say not always drop free. For me only with full mags, problem was a sharp edge around the channel for trigger bow. This is solved by the gun smith.

[wl518]

Arsenal Firearms AF2011-A1. C'mon guys I started laughing as I typed the name out.... :cool:

[Savage Hands]

I think a lot of people would be very interested in a 9mm 1911 pistol that actually worked. If the test goes well Springfield may just sell a bunch of them.


The one 1911/2011 I've had my eye on was Nighthawk Customs high capacity 9mm's that looks like a 2011 frame and a 1911 slide for up to 19 rounds of 9mm iirc.

[JAD]

I'll admit I was a little clenched up about a 9x19 straw man, but Mr. Burton's confidence carries a lot of weight for me. One of these days, I'll score a big enough bonus to send a colt to heirloom.

I do personally wish it was a combat commander -- the reduced slide travel of a commander shouldn't be a big deal with 9x19 and the form factor is a little nicer for AIWB, same as a 17. But I do expect Todd to become fond of the weapon for its gentleness and precision, so long as he doesn't wind up fighting a persistent reliability issue. Ramped barrels make me nervous.

[Savage Hands]

Mr. Burton's 50,000+ rounds thru a Les Baer TRS with minimal problems was one influence for me buying one :cool:

[FotoTomas]

This should be interesting. My only 9mm 1911 experience was with a Colt Combat Commander, brushed nickel with original Colt magazine. Did not keep it long enough to develop any real opinions.

I do remember however some of the spirited discussions Todd and I had back in the day when he thought the traditional double action pistol was the cat's meow. I was the DAO fanatic. He has since been assimilated into DAO. I also remember the recent capacity wars we had here. Back in 2003 Todd was packing his SIG 220 and has since decided that 12+1 is his comfort level. I mention this because we might well have a paradigm change here if this goes well or a reestablishment of PT accepted principles. Either way it will be a fun ride.

I think I could easily live with a 9+1 capacity since I am already happy with a six shot revolver as a primary on occasion. Even so my Glock 9mm's, SIG 229 and Beretta 92D Centurion make me happy with their extra bean counts. The manual safety however would be my downfall. As much as I believe it is a bonus for officer safety, I have had so many years without one that I would be at a real disadvantage until I could get up to speed with one and use it exclusively.

Let the test begin! :)

[farscott]

As someone who shoots a lot of 9x19 in several different 1911s, I believe magazines are going to be an issue. In my experience, magazines that work reliably in one 9x19 1911 fail in another. Both John Harrison and David Sams have built me 9x19 1911s; the Harrison gun started life out as a Series '80 9x23 and the Sams gun was built from a Caspian frame and slide. The Harrison gun runs all day with factory Colt magazines, and the Sams gun chokes with the exact same magazines and ammo. The Sams gun runs on the Mec-Gar magazines. Both guns like the Springfield "front ramp" magazines and both guns will NOT run with the Wilson ETM magazines. Nor will the Wilson magazines feed worth a darn in my STI Trojan 5.0, an early SA 9x19 Mil-Spec, or my 9x19 Series '70 Colt. Lots of first-round nose dives into the barrel ramp. I am curious to see how the ETM magazines do with the test guns as for me they were disappointments. Two of those three (not the Trojan 5.0) guns work well with the Mec-Gar or the Springfield magazines as well as factory Colt 9x19 and .38 Super magazines. The STI magazine release is a bit too low for the Colt magazines.

In my limited experience, 9x19 1911 magazines are easier to get out of whack, and I seem to replace at least ten per year. Drops on the range tend to mess with feed lips and the round release is impacted. Lots of magazines are the order of the day. I number then with nail polish on the spine to keep up with what works with what and what no longer works.

Recoil springs are going to be another issue. I run spring weights from 10# to 14# depending upon the gun and the load. The hard chromed guns tend to run lower weight springs than the blued guns. The parkerized Mil-Spec runs the 14# spring as it has the worst feeling slide cycling. The Sams, with the tightest slide to frame fit, runs a 12# spring.

[ToddG]

I still think the DA/SA is the cat's meow. I shot JV's P226 with SRT a bit at Rogers and holy cow, I miss that. In fact, if I hadn't gone with the Springfield there's a good chance I'd be shooting a P229R SRT for the next year instead. I also might have considered a P30 V3 with Gray Guns trigger work for a reduced reset.

As for capacity, that was one of the hardest things to accept when deciding to do the 1911 test. Rationally, I feel that 11rd in the gun is probably enough. But it's not nearly as "enough" as 16-18. Given the realities of what I'm likely to face in my life, it's suboptimal but likely adequate. Higher capacity lets me hedge my bets, whereas this will be removing some of the margin of error. If I end up dead because of it, well, hey, at least it means I won the internet debate! :cool:

[LittleLebowski]

I'd appreciate hearing your rationale behind preferring DA/SA if you want to start another thread, Todd.

[FotoTomas]

I would have loved to see a 229 in the crucible. Since I have no choice now but for a 229 as a duty gun I made the decision to buy one as an off duty piece. I did put a short trigger and DAO hammer in the pistol last week and function tested it yesterday with 100 rounds of ball and another 100 rounds of Winchester Ranger carry ammo. At some point I plan to put the DAK lockwork in her since that SIG DAO is so much heavier than my Beretta DAO. The DAK seems to be a better option.

I bet I too could get used to the TDA. That trigger finger after shooting the SIG yesterday is still sore! On the other hand no decocking required.

Looking forward to the results. Maybe next year the 229 will get a shot.

[BCL]

I'd appreciate hearing your rationale behind preferring DA/SA if you want to start another thread, Todd.

I'd appreciate it as well.

[jwperry]

How many spare mags do you plan on carrying?
I remember from your HK45 test you wanted to carry 2 spares to bring you to a capacity similar to that of the P30, but went with 1 based on their size. The 9mm M1911 mags don't have that handicap, so do you plan on going with 2 spares?

Also, I feel pretty good about my nice round number of 700 rounds to failure/stoppage. If the mags are all in multiples of 10, you could probably knock this out on the first day. Just do me a favor and not lube the gun. :cool:

[ToddG]

My plan at the moment is to carry two spares.

I'm not sure how the first day of shooting will go. That will depend in a lot of ways on the guns themselves.

Re: the DA/SA thing, didn't we cover that here previously? If not, I'm happy to type something up.

[Jac]

If I end up dead because of it, well, hey, at least it means I won the internet debate! :cool:

You didn't win the Internets today, Todd Green... You earned it.


Re: the DA/SA thing, didn't we cover that here previously? If not, I'm happy to type something up.
I know I'd like to see all your thoughts on it in one place.

[Tamara]

As for capacity, that was one of the hardest things to accept when deciding to do the 1911 test. Rationally, I feel that 11rd in the gun is probably enough. But it's not nearly as "enough" as 16-18. Given the realities of what I'm likely to face in my life, it's suboptimal but likely adequate.
The best part about it will be around this time next year, when you're shooting the 2013 P-T.com Test Blastomatic 2K, and you're shooting some random drill:

BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!
BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!
*holy crap, this thing still has bullets in it!*
BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!
BLAMBLAMBLAM!
*reload!*

:D

[ToddG]

BTW, based on recommendations from you guys, I ordered some 10rd Metalform/SA magazines.

Right now, my plan is to run the first 2,000 rounds through the gun using the Metalform mags assuming they run in the gun. That way, the gun's functionality can be assessed using what are essentially factory magazines. After that -- or if the Metalforms seem to cause any trouble -- I'll see about the others.

As GJM mentioned earlier, I am going to have to come up with some kind of methodology related to the magazines and reporting of stoppages.

[Tamara]

BTW, based on recommendations from you guys, I ordered some 10rd Metalform/SA magazines.

Yeah, the Metalform 1911 mag situation is unusual to say the least: If you want them to sell you a bunch of quasifunctional mags as OEM equipment for your 1911 clone @ squat-oh-nine per mag for a five thousand gun production run, they'll do it, and yet their top-dollar aftermarket units are as highly-regarded as any in the biz...

[BLR]

http://www.metalform.us/collections/pistol-magazines/products/9-743

These?

[Robinson]

You can also order them from Brownell's and probably Midway.

I'm interested to see how these perform in the test since they work so well for me. Is it truly a better design, or do they just work well in my particular gun?

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9-2-000-Round-Challenge&p=72251&viewfull=1#post72251

[MDS]

The best part about it will be around this time next year, when you're shooting the 2013 P-T.com Test Blastomatic 2K, and you're shooting some random drill:

BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!
BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!
*holy crap, this thing still has bullets in it!*
BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!
BLAMBLAMBLAM!
*reload!*

:D

Why am I suddenly craving mutton?

Anyway, this test is good timing for me. This year has been about building a foundation in pistol software for me. Next year will be that for rifle, but I suspect I'll be experimenting with pistol hardware a little at the same time. And 1911's have always seemed like a fun hardware experiment.

Good times!

[LOKNLOD]

That will not be the case this time...

No lie! :p

Actually a certain level of personal disconnect on my part might make the test all the more interesting, from an academic point of view.

I may have missed it elsewhere in the thread, but did you ever say when you expected to get these things and begin?

[ToddG]

I may have missed it elsewhere in the thread, but did you ever say when you expected to get these things and begin?

No. They're being built now. Once that is complete, they'll fly to my favorite local gun shop here in Maryland where the State will take a couple of weeks to determine my worthiness to own more firearms.

I'm hoping to have them next month. But I've had no such commitment from Springfield or Warren, it's just crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

[David Armstrong]

I still think the DA/SA is the cat's meow. I shot JV's P226 with SRT a bit at Rogers and holy cow, I miss that. In fact, if I hadn't gone with the Springfield there's a good chance I'd be shooting a P229R SRT for the next year instead. I also might have considered a P30 V3 with Gray Guns trigger work for a reduced reset.

As for capacity, that was one of the hardest things to accept when deciding to do the 1911 test. Rationally, I feel that 11rd in the gun is probably enough. But it's not nearly as "enough" as 16-18. Given the realities of what I'm likely to face in my life, it's suboptimal but likely adequate. Higher capacity lets me hedge my bets, whereas this will be removing some of the margin of error. If I end up dead because of it, well, hey, at least it means I won the internet debate! :cool:
Nah, it just means we get to rehash a number of old internet debates: "If only he had been using a .45...." "He should have done a Tactical Reload...." "Why you need to adjust your tactics to reflect your capacity...." etc.! :D

[GJM]

No. They're being built now.

That may be the single biggest lie in the custom 1911 world -- so much so, that my 1911 shop has t shirts printed with "they are on the bench," across the back. I think the longest outstanding firearm order I have, is a deposit in for two Richard Heinie pistols from April 2000.

On the other hand, clever fellow that you are, Todd, you may be using the 2012-2013 Test gig as a way to actually get a few custom 1911 pistols built on a timeline.

[F-Trooper05]

I think the longest outstanding firearm order I have, is a deposit in for two Richard Heinie pistols from April 2000.

Woah, woah, woah, stop the clock. You mean you're still waiting on them???

[jmjames]

Woah, woah, woah, stop the clock. You mean you're still waiting on them???

Yeah, no kidding... that's a "Duke Nukem II" wait time...

J.Ja

[ToddG]

That may be the single biggest lie in the custom 1911 world

Warren's relationship with Springfield Custom is extremely tight. He worked directly with them for years on the FBI SWAT & HRT guns as well as his own competition guns. In addition, the whole idea of going with the Warren production run was Springfield Custom's recommendation after they quoted me delivery of actual custom guns and I balked.

Like I said, at this moment I've had no commitment from anyone as to delivery other than it will be substantially sooner than the earliest they could promise full house custom guns. I do know that I wanted a change in mine from the regular spec -- I didn't want the front strap checkering -- and the guns are too far along to do that.

[YVK]

That may be the single biggest lie in the custom 1911 world -- so much so, that my 1911 shop has t shirts printed with "they are on the bench," across the back. I think the longest outstanding firearm order I have, is a deposit in for two Richard Heinie pistols from April 2000.


You win. I've been on Ned's wait list only since July 2004.

[TGS]

You win. I've been on Ned's wait list only since July 2004.

You guys are kidding, right?

I never imagined that wait times for guns could be measured in the decades. That's pretty outrageous, especially when you consider how much you guys shoot and the fact it will have to be rebuilt in a few years of use.

[John Ralston]

You win. I've been on Ned's wait list only since July 2004.

Ned does AMAZING work, so it will be worth the wait...and I think I am 7 years into a 5 year wait with him : )

As for Heinie - he isn't taking any more work - EVER. It is rumored that he has said he isn't sure if he can get all of his orders done before he dies as it is.

[BLR]

I wasn't going to jinx it - but I waited 13 months for the 10mm Pro seen in the gallery here. I waited 15mo for one of my Pros, and 20 for another.

Heirloom is the most "reasonable" custom 1911 gun right now, at least of the super premium shops. They are just a couple of years since I last talked with Mr. Yost. MARS isn't too bad from what I hear, depending on the work desired.

[YVK]

You guys are kidding, right?

I never imagined that wait times for guns could be measured in the decades. That's pretty outrageous, especially when you consider how much you guys shoot and the fact it will have to be rebuilt in a few years of use.

Nope, dead serious. These dudes are busy, they are truly one-man shops, many have more than one iron in the fire, so to speak - Heinie with sights, Ned with armorer's classes, writing and projects for S.W.A.T., rebuilding the worn-out guns etc.
Frankly, if you want a high-end gun from a specific maker, your chances are higher on a "pre-owned" market. I've bought two Ned's guns since getting on his list. If GJM really badly wants one, there are four Heinie guns available for sale on one website...

The point is though that those guns are luxuries, not necessities by any stretch. I want Ned's gun because to me it is an expression of his intellect and creativity via metal work, on top of being a functional reliable pistol. I could get a latter without former a lot cheaper and a lot faster.

Hopefully not too big of a deviation from the original thread.

[ToddG]

Hopefully not too big of a deviation from the original thread.

Not at all. I've already told Jason that if the Springfield test goes well, he can expect business from me to build a gun to my specs. I just don't know enough about the myriad options to make those kinds of decisions right now.

[YVK]

I just don't know enough about the myriad options to make those kinds of decisions right now.

I know this is Warren-spec'd gun and that's what you are going to run, but you have to try flat trigger. Maybe ask "them" to fit one for you; if you didn't try, how would you find out?

[Mjolnir]

My plan at the moment is to carry two spares.

I'm not sure how the first day of shooting will go. That will depend in a lot of ways on the guns themselves.

Re: the DA/SA thing, didn't we cover that here previously? If not, I'm happy to type something up.

I love 1911s and regularly carry a Les Baer TRS. Carrying two mags serves two purposes: capacity and counterbalancing weight.

[CoGT3]

I still think the DA/SA is the cat's meow. I shot JV's P226 with SRT a bit at Rogers and holy cow, I miss that. In fact, if I hadn't gone with the Springfield there's a good chance I'd be shooting a P229R SRT for the next year instead. I also might have considered a P30 V3 with Gray Guns trigger work for a reduced reset.

I know this is "slightly" off topic, but how did the P226 with SRT compare to the P30 V3/Gray Guns you played with in the past? Picked up a gun at my neighbor/FFL who just got a P229/SRT in and it felt real nice right out of the box. Had me thinking before I even saw your comments. Light years smoother than my well used P30 V3.

[Jason Burton]

Given the good, the bad, and all the in-between that exists in the world of 1911s this is bound to be an interesting test no matter what happens.

I liked this idea since the first time Todd mentioned it… and I already know that a well-built 1911 can be as reliable as any other machine. But even still I’ll be looking forward to hearing/reading the updates because, no matter what anyone already thinks or knows about the 1911, this test can still be an educational process.

[Tamara]

Nope, dead serious. These dudes are busy, they are truly one-man shops, many have more than one iron in the fire, so to speak - Heinie with sights, Ned with armorer's classes, writing and projects for S.W.A.T., rebuilding the worn-out guns etc.

This. And even the most basic of custom 1911 builds (using a machine-cut frontstrap texturing and some sort of in-house spray-and-bake finish) is going to take a couple-three complete man/days at the bench. Every deviation from that, such as hand-cut anything, a finish that requires shipping the gun out to a third party, whatever, and you're pretty soon talking about finishing less than a gun a week.

If only a couple hundred other people have the same fine taste in pistolsmiths as you do, a guy can get a couple-year backlog in his order books right quick. Look at Larry Vickers: He went from "Huh? Larry's building pistols now?" to "Larry's full up and not building pistols anymore" in a relative eyeblink.

[Gary1911A1]

I'm a Hugh fan of the 1911 if you couldn't tell from my On-line name and I'm going to be following this closely. Thanks for making this choice Todd.

[ToddG]

I know this is "slightly" off topic, but how did the P226 with SRT compare to the P30 V3/Gray Guns you played with in the past? Picked up a gun at my neighbor/FFL who just got a P229/SRT in and it felt real nice right out of the box. Had me thinking before I even saw your comments. Light years smoother than my well used P30 V3.

I don't have enough time behind the Gray Guns P30 to make a fair comparison. The two I've handled were outstanding, but without handling and shooting them side by side with a SRT-equipped SIG I wouldn't want to choose a favorite. I do have extensive experience shooting the SRT and I know it's incredibly shootable.


I liked this idea since the first time Todd mentioned it… and I already know that a well-built 1911 can be as reliable as any other machine. But even still I’ll be looking forward to hearing/reading the updates because, no matter what anyone already thinks or knows about the 1911, this test can still be an educational process.

Thanks, Jason! So when I need to tune my first extractor, what's the nearest airport to Tempe? :cool:

[Odin Bravo One]

Ned does AMAZING work, so it will be worth the wait...and I think I am 7 years into a 5 year wait with him : )

As for Heinie - he isn't taking any more work - EVER. It is rumored that he has said he isn't sure if he can get all of his orders done before he dies as it is.

When I was looking to commission my current 1911 project, Ned (who has done some wonderful going out of his way for me in the past on other projects) told me in no certain terms, not only "No", but "#$%# *%!# No". Way too booked up. Same thing for about 6 other guys on my list of approved builders.

Then I got lucky, and one particular builder who is no longer building guns agreed to take on my project.

I suspect it will be a couple of years before he calls to go over the detailed specs, and particulars for the aesthetics.

[TGS]

I know this is "slightly" off topic, but how did the P226 with SRT compare to the P30 V3/Gray Guns you played with in the past? Picked up a gun at my neighbor/FFL who just got a P229/SRT in and it felt real nice right out of the box. Had me thinking before I even saw your comments. Light years smoother than my well used P30 V3.

I have a P2000 with GGI work. Compared to an SRT 229, the break in SA is much lighter on the GGI worked P2000 to the point that my SA break is barely noticeable...it's not a glass rod break, either; it's kind of weird and reminds me a LOT of my Mauser Es340b target rifle. The reset is probably a smidgen longer if not the same as the SRT. If I concentrate on hitting the reset mid-recoil, I can actually double (bump-fire?) the pistol with a loose thumbs-forward grip. My sight tracking is my limiting factor, so I don't really care to hit the reset mid-recoil.

SIG triggers will always beat an HK P-series with comparable work. You can still do great work on target with an HK trigger, but there's no hiding that their current trigger offerings are about as exciting as driving a Geo Metro around the Nurburgring. No amount of trigger work will make it feel as endearing as a Beretta or SIG trigger, either....it still feels like a P-Series. Think of it this way: the Geo Metro will always provide road feedback like a Geo Metro, and will never give the driver the sensation of actually feeling the road with your fingers like a Lotus Elise (Beretta or SIG)...You can feel whats going on with the gun through the trigger on the Beretta or SIG whereas the HK has vague feedback/sensation.

ETA: Note that GGI has raised their prices on the reduced-reset carry package for HK's to $365. I was willing to pay $325 at one point...but $365 just seems excessive. Ya, you do get your internals plated in nickel-teflon and the warranty/CS is fantastic but $365 is more than I'm willing to pay and I would consider myself a loyal customer.

[orionz06]

Not at all. I've already told Jason that if the Springfield test goes well, he can expect business from me to build a gun to my specs. I just don't know enough about the myriad options to make those kinds of decisions right now.

Is this build to your specs as a PTC 9mm 1911 that others could buy, or personal guns other than the test guns?

[ToddG]

There is no such thing as a PTC 1911. I don't know nearly enough about the guns to spec one out. The test guns are built to Scott Warren's spec.

[orionz06]

There is no such thing as a PTC 1911. I don't know nearly enough about the guns to spec one out. The test guns are built to Scott Warren's spec.

I was referring to
I've already told Jason that if the Springfield test goes well, he can expect business from me to build a gun to my specs.

Would this be you deciding what you wanted and having a personal gun built?

[ToddG]

As opposed to?

[orionz06]

A larger run of them similar to the PTC M&P? Perhaps I extrapolated too far?

[John Ralston]

A larger run of them similar to the PTC M&P? Perhaps I extrapolated too far?

Jason hand builds very few guns each year, so the odds of there being a "Special Run" from Burton is like winning the lottery...twice.

[orionz06]

Maybe I just misread it. Two test guns then maybe a third ordered once Todd figures out the trinkets and gadgets he wants on a 3rd gun.

[10mm]

I bet you'll like the accuracy and trigger especially if you shoot some groups at 50 and 100 yards.I've found a good 1911 can shoot under 3 inchs at 50 yards easily.

[Limey-]

Had a Springer full size 9mm 1911 full package by
A very well known smith with a great rep and with a long waiting list.
It never ran well despite multiple changes. One very well
Known smith advised me to go back to 45 or pull my P-35 out
If the safe. This will be interesting.

[ToddG]

A larger run of them similar to the PTC M&P? Perhaps I extrapolated too far?

Certainly not from Burton. I'd imagine a "large run" from Heirloom is, like, three guns. :cool:

As to whether there could ever be a ToddG/PTC "signature" 1911, that's putting the cart before the horse before the horse is even born...

[Tamara]

As to whether there could ever be a ToddG/PTC "signature" 1911, that's putting the cart before the horse before the horse is even born...

I was gonna say... ;)

Counting the baby poultry before the hens have even layed, much? :D

[Limey-]

Certainly not from Burton. I'd imagine a "large run" from Heirloom is, like, three guns. :cool:

As to whether there could ever be a ToddG/PTC "signature" 1911, that's putting the cart before the horse before the horse is even born...

Ironically it was my buddy Burton who advised
me to stick with a BHP. Ted did the original pistol.
Course this was quite a few years back. I am sure the
Wizards in AZ might have it figured out by now.
Larry Vickers poured scorn on the idea when I mentioned
it to him a few years. Heck I would be happy to see this be a viable proposition
again.

[John Ralston]

Ironically it was my buddy Burton who advised
me to stick with a BHP. Ted did the original pistol.
Course this was quite a few years back. I am sure the
Wizards in AZ might have it figured out by now.
Larry Vickers poured scorn on the idea when I mentioned
it to him a few years. Heck I would be happy to see this be a viable proposition
again.

He's my buddy not yours...:p

[Limey-]

He's my buddy not yours...:p

:D John............Jason is a good man. Saved me a ton of cash not continuing chasing that 9mm Duty 1911 unicorn. The gun was magnificent for a training gun. It would be equally unreasonable to ask them to make me a 45ACP BHP for Duty. Im sure Jason and Ted could do it given enough cash .
Heck I know they like a challenge assuming they even had the time these days.

[deejai]

I fixed you gun for you, it was in a million pieces but I managed to get it all together.
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg492/dizbukhapeter/Picture6.png

[Gary1911A1]

There is no such thing as a PTC 1911. I don't know nearly enough about the guns to spec one out. The test guns are built to Scott Warren's spec.

Anyone have a link to how to order one of these 1911s'. I had no clue Scott Warren was having these made and would be interested in getting one.

[ToddG]

Anyone have a link to how to order one of these 1911s'. I had no clue Scott Warren was having these made and would be interested in getting one.

I've inquired as to whether they're taking orders for others. As soon as I know something, I'll post it.

In the meantime, support material has started to roll in. I've got a box each of Wilson ETM and Metalform 10rd mags plus Kuhnhausen's book in hand. Some Tripp mags, a blue gun, holsters, mag pouches, and some recoil springs should all be here by the end of this week. I'm also thinking of treating myself to a new punch set.

[Tamara]

...Kuhnhausen's book in hand.

Wait, there are people who don't own Kuhnhausen's 1911 and S&W wheelgun manuals? Weird.

[YVK]

In the meantime, support material has started to roll in. I've got a box each of Wilson ETM and Metalform 10rd mags plus Kuhnhausen's book in hand. Some Tripp mags, a blue gun, holsters, mag pouches, and some recoil springs should all be here by the end of this week. I'm also thinking of treating myself to a new punch set.

Dude, you can buy all kinds of stuff, but you can't buy karma....which is the real reason why some 1911s work and some don't. You were within 20 minutes drive not only from JMB's house, but, more importantly, JMB's museum. Prototypes, unserialized 1911s, papers, work benches, BARs, and JMB's spirit...

You never made the pilgrimage; instead, we went to Arby's...The 2012-2013 Pistol-Training.com test is doomed.



That Philly cheese steak sandwich tasted good, though.

[Tamara]

Dude, you can buy all kinds of stuff, but you can't buy karma....which is the real reason why some 1911s work and some don't. You were within 20 minutes drive not only from JMB's house, but, more importantly, JMB's museum. Prototypes, unserialized 1911s, papers, work benches, BARs, and JMB's spirit...

You never made the pilgrimage; instead, we went to Arby's...The 2012-2013 Pistol-Training.com test is doomed.



That Philly cheese steak sandwich tasted good, though.

Awesome. :D

[jmjames]

I'm also thinking of treating myself to a new punch set.

One of the really neat things about the 1911 is that all of the parts help hold all of the pins in, for the most part, and the result is that they are used more as an axis for things to move around. If I recall, the mainspring housing pin was tough because of the pressure on it, but outside of that all of the pins remove really easily.

J.Ja

[ToddG]

You never made the pilgrimage; instead, we went to Arby's...The 2012-2013 Pistol-Training.com test is doomed.

Grandpa always used to say, "Don't be superstitious. Bad things happen to superstitious people."

[YVK]

Grandpa always used to say, "Don't be superstitious. Bad things happen to superstitious people."

I like your attitude.


Now go knock on wood.

[JHC]

Grandpa always used to say, "Don't be superstitious. Bad things happen to superstitious people."

THAT is brilliant. I just quoted you and your Grandfather on my FB page for that. :cool:

[jmjames]

Can I safely assume that you won't be converting these to an SBR? I just stumbled across a kit to do just that:
http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/1911_SBR_Kit.html

J.Ja

[DanH]

Can I safely assume that you won't be converting these to an SBR? I just stumbled across a kit to do just that:
http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/1911_SBR_Kit.html

J.Ja

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[EMC]

Dude, you can buy all kinds of stuff, but you can't buy karma....which is the real reason why some 1911s work and some don't. You were within 20 minutes drive not only from JMB's house, but, more importantly, JMB's museum. Prototypes, unserialized 1911s, papers, work benches, BARs, and JMB's spirit...

You never made the pilgrimage; instead, we went to Arby's...The 2012-2013 Pistol-Training.com test is doomed.



That Philly cheese steak sandwich tasted good, though.

Ah yes, the Union station in Ogden. Place of my birth and browning ancestry. Great great great uncle JMB is mad at you from the grave. I'm fairly certain he's angry at me too for not owning a 1911.

[Tamara]

Can I safely assume that you won't be converting these to an SBR? I just stumbled across a kit to do just that:
http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/1911_SBR_Kit.html

Purse. Full. Of kittens.

[_JD_]

I've inquired as to whether they're taking orders for others. As soon as I know something, I'll post it.

In the meantime, support material has started to roll in. I've got a box each of Wilson ETM and Metalform 10rd mags plus Kuhnhausen's book in hand. Some Tripp mags, a blue gun, holsters, mag pouches, and some recoil springs should all be here by the end of this week. I'm also thinking of treating myself to a new punch set.

A 10-8 Armoers Block (http://www.10-8performance.com/products/Armorer-Block.html) might come in handy and depending on how tight the busing/barrel fit is, a good bushing wrench might come in handy. Tamara can probably weigh in if she's ever needed one with her SA Pro.

[ToddG]

I received an email from the Custom Shop today that the pistols should be shipping in... 2-3 weeks.

[jmjames]

I received an email from the Custom Shop today that the pistols should be shipping in... 2-3 weeks.

Nice! Sounds like my 6/27 guess may still be good. :)

J.Ja

[MattNRA]

I received an email from the Custom Shop today that the pistols should be shipping in... 2-3 weeks.

Todd, I run several 9mm 1911's and one thing you may want to look into is an Ed Brown style extended mag release (and possibly heavier or lighter mag catch springs). It will help with speed and if you select the right spring weight (trial and error for your preference) it will eliminate accidental mag releases.

Related to changing the mag release, some people experience problems with the mags dropping free and quickly blame the mag (happens with Wilson mags the most). The solution I use and you may want to ask the custom shop about this is grinding down the inside shoulder of the mag release button so no matter how hard it is pressed it will not bind on the magazine. Hell, I can do it for you and polish it in about 15 min if you want.

If you want to see/run one of mine before you start the test let me know and I can bring it to the range for you and you can try the mag release I use.

I use the Wilson mags primarily but have not had problems with any of the other major brands.

You will have to change the recoil spring far more often than you are used to (I am sure they will cover that) and I use the Wolff variable power springs exclusively.

With the crimson trace master series grip it *should* work with the standard ambi safety, no need for a nubbie any more... http://www.crimsontracelaser.com/1911-crimson-trace-laser-sight-lg-904-master-series-lasergrips-1911-fullsize-blkgry-p-153.html

[orionz06]

Nice! Sounds like my 6/27 guess may still be good. :)

J.Ja

But will they work?

[jmjames]

But will they work?

I've got a guess in the "when will it jam" thread too. :D

On that note, all of this talk re: 1911's & jamming has me really jonesing to buy a Ruger SR1911, 2,000 rounds of various ammo, and put it through the 2,000 round challenge...

J.Ja

[ToddG]

Matt -- Thanks! If I have any issues with the mag release as-is I'll definitely take a look at your setup.

In the short term, the only change I want to make to the guns is to add Lasergrips. Beyond that, ideally I'd like to run the gun as close to "factory spec" as possible. Once the guns prove themselves I may change that stance, but at least at first I want to eliminate me (or aftermarket parts) as the culprit if there are problems.

Having said that, I do not expect problems. I've had conversations with the Custom Shop and I'm confident they understand what I expect the gun to do. They know what ammo I'm going to shoot. They know what volume I'm going to shoot. And they know it's all going to be done very transparently. No one there has balked. They have faith in the guns they're building.

[Savage Hands]

Todd forget's this old video he made a few years back...


http://youtu.be/iVkOcVEvpF4

[Little Creek]

Back in the late 1970's I started shooting IPSC with a Colt 1911 in 45. I acquired a similar pistol in 9mm as I had access to all the 9mm NATO ammo I could shoot. Reliability was never an issue with the 9mm pistol and 9mm NATO ammo. The magazines at that time were 9 round metalform. Around 20 years ago I toured the Colt factory and viewed pistol magazines marked Colt in cardboard cases marked Metalform.

[ToddG]

Updates:


Crimson Trace is sending me a couple sets of "Master Series" Lasergrips that are compatible with the ambi safety on my (upcoming) guns.
I spoke with Scott Warren today. He is building me some custom night sights which probably won't be available for a month or more after I receive the guns. That means, in the short term, I'm stuck with the plain black rear and fiber optic front. The upshot is that I'll have to rely on the lasers for low-light shooting. While it's not my first choice, it's a temporary and solvable problem.
Also, Scott gave me details for anyone who might be interested in purchasing one of these guns. Contact me and I'll put you in touch with him.
I received my Ring's Blue Gun Springfield Operator which should help me play around with holster options while I wait for the guns to arrive.
Going through my old leather drawer I found a tight-as-hell Milt Sparks single stack mag pouch as well as four of these from Wilson (http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Open-Front-Magazine-Pouch-1911-Right-Hand-15-Belt-Black-Leather/productinfo/OF1BLR15/). I picked the Wilsons up eight or nine years ago when I was running a SIG P220. They're fast but not very concealable because they bulge out quite a bit at the bottom. I've got four Custom Carry Concepts BMCs on the way but no ETA yet, so I'm preparing for the possibility of needing something in the meantime.