Carrying a Copy of Your Stamp

[StraitR]

I keep originals in our safe, and color scans in my range bag and one for my SiCo Omega in the BCM grips on AR's. I keep a PDF of my trust on my phone, along with photo copies of my stamps, front and back.

How are you carrying a copy of your stamps? Anyone just keep copies on their phone, or does everyone find ways to keep paper copies handy?

[CCT125US]

Good choices all around. My suppressor use is pretty much limited to my property, with the rare exception. My range is about a 1/4 mile by road, so that is the only time I travel with them. I do keep copies in a zip lock bag with me, while in use.

ETA: With electronic docs, you always run the risk of loss or power failure. Also not sure if such docs are an excepted form. They very well could be, I just haven't looked into it.

[Clusterfrack]

I have them on my phone, and also have copies of all my NFA stamps packaged in sandwich bags in every bag I use.

EDIT: I have never had to show them to anyone.

[CleverNickname]

I have a small binder with half-size laminated copies of all my forms. If I'm going to shoot NFA guns I just throw that in my range bag. Some of my SBRs (e.g. my 300 BLK that I typically take on road trips) also have reduced-size copies of their forms stored in the pistol grips. Whenever I get a new gun the form gets scanned and a high-res copy stored on my PC. The actual forms are in my safe deposit box.

Maybe it's a function of NFA being more common now, or maybe it's just me getting older and therefore looking more mature or something, but when I got into NFA guns in the early '00's when I was in my 20's I'd have to show my forms to the rangemaster almost anytime I went to the range. Now it's probably been five years since anyone's asked to see them.

[ranger]

I keep copies in all my rifle cases and shooting bags. I keep a copy in my suppressor cases. I need to put on my phone - good idea

[baddean]

I have them on my phone, and also have copies of all my NFA stamps packaged in sandwich bags in every bag I use.

EDIT: I have never had to show them to anyone.

This^

No mention of what form this should take so a photo or PDF on your phone should be acceptable.

And this from the Form 4 Transfer application.
"Proof of Registration: A person possessing a firearm registered as required by the NFA shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request." (my bolding)

[Mike C]

Mini laminated version folded into pistol grip. Digital copy on password protected PDF on phone and in cloud. Hard copies in safe, originals in safety deposit box. These days e-files are sent to your e-mail box. I see no reason some compliance officer wouldn't accept looking at your paperwork stored in a PDF file on your phone. If they or someone else wanted to be a jerk about it they can go blind reading my micro copy that is just barely legible from the pistol grip.

[whomever]

"I have never had to show them to anyone. "

Ditto. I stopped carrying them.

My trust is 60 some pages, so carrying it is a bit awkward. The requirement is that you provide them to ATF folks on request. If some ATF (or other LEO) wants to see them, I will comply by fetching a copy from home, or the originals from the safety deposit box.

There is an argument that some zealous LEO will decide to throw me in jail until he sees the documents. That risk seems pretty small to me, although that may be a local thing.

[fatdog]

Originals in the bank in the safe deposit box. Paper copies in a gallon size plastic baggie in the case where it is carried, full set in the safe. A full set for all my items folded in a gallon baggie in my trunk vault. A spare paper copy stuck inside the grip, or inside the stock, or in the case of my Krink in surplus cleaning kit tube in the stock instead of the cleaning kit items. On my SBS's, a reduced size paper copy taped to the stock, another inside the stock behind the buttpad.

yep, I am paranoid on this issue

Over about 20 years ago, late 90's, I had a friend taken into custody by an AL DPS trooper on a traffic stop because he could not produce the paperwork on his registered MP5, which he admitted was in the vehicle...it was cleared up when his wife showed up at the jail with the copies...he was never charged but his temporary detention settled the issue for me. I suppose there are better computer systems in place where an LE might run the numbers and find it was a registered NFA item now? Dunno...my paper will be with me when it leaves the house....don't trust cell phones not to die at critical moments or the internet bars to not disappear, don't like handcuffs.

[Pacioli]

Maybe it's a function of NFA being more common now, or maybe it's just me getting older and therefore looking more mature or something, but when I got into NFA guns in the early '00's when I was in my 20's I'd have to show my forms to the rangemaster almost anytime I went to the range.

I belong to a membership type range that is not manned. Members have electronic gate cards, come and go as you please. We decided to train up a cadre of RSO's to help ensure good practices. So when one of us is present we are charged with enforcing safety, although it's rarely necessary. The subject of asking to see stamps came up in training. My position is that I'm not a cop. If some guy drags out an NFA item and uses it safely, my interest stops there.

Some others seemed to want to be Charles in charge, I don't get it. The range has no liability vis-a-vis NFA compliance. If one of you think I've missed something, please tell me.

[Mike C]

"I have never had to show them to anyone. "

Ditto. I stopped carrying them.

My trust is 60 some pages, so carrying it is a bit awkward. The requirement is that you provide them to ATF folks on request. If some ATF (or other LEO) wants to see them, I will comply by fetching a copy from home, or the originals from the safety deposit box.

There is an argument that some zealous LEO will decide to throw me in jail until he sees the documents. That risk seems pretty small to me, although that may be a local thing.

Some ranges will not let your shoot an sbr or supressor unless you prove legal possession. I live by two such ranges. It was a pain in the butt until everyone got to know me. It was just easier to have it than being told to leave.

[whomever]

"Some ranges will not let your shoot an sbr or supressor unless you prove legal possession."

That would be an excellent reason to carry them :-). The ranges around here have never asked.

(It would be fun for them to read through the 60 pages of trust to find Appendix F or whatever it is that lists the people authorized to possess the trust's stuff... hopefully they wouldn't do that every time)

[Mike C]

That would be funny because some of the employees I’ve met at gun shops can barely read.

[Sanch]

I just assume keep a copy in your range bag and not worry too much about it. The cloud, phone, etc backups to have it available in triplicates seems overkill.

Heck, even if you forgot the copy in your range bag, Im not sure how big of a deal it is. Sometimes I forget and it gives me a little anxiety and I then I tell myself its no big deal.

Doesnt the ATF have a database of this? I cant imagine you will go to prison for 10 years before you didnt have a copy of the paperwork with you.

Given I have never been asked by anyone to see it, if I was asked, and it was by a a local LE I would say lets call the ATF field office. And the ATF can run the serial through their database. What is the actual penalty for not having the paperwork with you? Probably a $100 fine or something? Since the $200 tax stamp hasnt been adjusted for inflation, the fine probably also isnt adjusted for inflation but idk.

Is the local PD going to want to jack you up so bad to wait a few hours for ATF to show up to run your serial only to give you a $100 fine? Unless you were a real dick to the cop or they want to nail you for something else, I cant imagine that happening. Or youre passing through NJ or something with it locked in your trunk as your moving from Georgia to New Hampshire but in that case NJ State Police will jack you up even if you have the paperwork, even if you have a federal badge yourself! So really what I am saying is I think if the police want to jack you up, theyll jack you up. But if your not a dick that is probably not going to happen outside of NJ/NYC. And even then the paperwork wont matter.

I mean they could look at your paperwork if they want to jack you up and say "but this isnt original" and you can say "it doesnt have to be original" and they can arrest you because they can do anything if they want to jack you up. Most cops arent dicks and most people on here are probably not the kind of person that even dick cops would want to jack up so its not something I worry about at all.

But maybe I should be more worried. Does anyone know of a case of a legal NFA stamp holder that was jacked up for not having paperwork with them? Or does anyone know what the actual penalty is if the ATF did want to make an example out of you for daring to take your legally registered .22lr suppressor out of the house without a piece of paper?

[whomever]

"Or does anyone know what the actual penalty is if the ATF did want to make an example out of you for daring to take your legally registered .22lr suppressor out of the house without a piece of paper?"

IANAL, and welcome corrections...

My understanding is that there is no legal requirement, at all, that you carry the paperwork with you, i.e. if you are a legal owner with the paperwork in your safety deposit box you will not be convicted of anything once all the legal proceedings run their course.

You do have to provide the docs to the ATF on request. As an aside, at least in the past, the ATF has sometimes been pretty careless in their record keeping and lost some of their NFA records, so you really want to be able to produce your own copies rather than relying on their records. Hence the safety deposit box, and redundant copies at home.

The risk of not carrying them with you has to do with the 'legal proceedings run their course' part. Consider an ordinary gun. In most states you don't need specific paperwork licenses to possess a gun. If you get pulled over, you don't have to have a receipt for the gun or any other paperwork - if the officer wants to arrest you, the burden of proof - reasonable suspicion, for an arrest - that the gun is stolen/you are a felon/etc is on the officer, it's not on you to prove the gun isn't stolen or you aren't a felon. It's his job to prove you are a crook, not yours to prove you are innocent.

NFA stuff is different - it's illegal to posses them in general, unless you have the tax stamp. So an officer might say 'Hmmmm, you have the suppressor, that's a crime, and I don't see any paperwork saying it isn't; I'm going to haul you off and let the system sort things out'. You'll beat the rap, as the saying goes, but not the ride. So everyone gets to decide whether that risk is worth carrying paperwork around with you. My personal choice, given local conditions and the freaking 60 page trust, is I don't carry paperwork; I have it at home and at the bank. You have to decide what your local conditions are, and your tolerance for risk.

To me, it's one of those things, like that we used to fill a half pint nalgene bottle with peppermint schnapps for ski camping trips. That's probably violating a law against open containers of booze in cars or something. I never worried about it; my traffic stop interactions with LEOs have been rare (I drive like an old woman) and non-confrontational. YMMV.

again, corrections welcomed!

[rd62]

My SBR original stampmis kept in my files at home but I carry a copy with me when I take it out.

[baddean]

"Some ranges will not let your shoot an sbr or supressor unless you prove legal possession."

That would be an excellent reason to carry them :-). The ranges around here have never asked.

(It would be fun for them to read through the 60 pages of trust to find Appendix F or whatever it is that lists the people authorized to possess the trust's stuff... hopefully they wouldn't do that every time)

You keep mentioning 60 pages of trust (three times). Why? Nowhere in the ATF regulations does it require any portion of a trust as proof of registration.
Granted, only the name of the trust is listed on the ATF forms and not the trustees individually but there is still no requirement to produce a copy of the trust on request.
If I'm off base here, educate me.

Section 3.7 Maintaining registration documents. A person possessing an NFA firearm registered as required by law must retain proof of registration, that is, the document showing the person’s registration, which must be made available to ATF upon request.55

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-3/download

[Paul D]

I make a two side copy of every stamp I have put them in a zippered money pouch. I have 5 of these and I put them in all of my gun bags and my main vehicle. Nobody has ever asked to see it but you never know.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FDALIX-Zippered-Security-Deposit-Assorted%2Fdp%2FB07H477XSD&psig=AOvVaw2oTTMdCvquAVbz7iWr5J04&ust=1586147230424000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCOCDv4O50OgCFQAAAAAdAAAAABANhttps ://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71walyuNCuL._AC_SX679_.jpg

[kwb377]

Some ranges will not let your shoot an sbr or supressor unless you prove legal possession.

Do these same ranges require everyone else that shows up with a firearm to produce a copy of their arrest record to prove they haven't been convicted of a felony or domestic violence and thus in legal possession of said firearm?

[whomever]

"Nowhere in the ATF regulations does it require any portion of a trust as proof of registration.
Granted, only the name of the trust is listed on the ATF forms and not the trustees individually but there is still no requirement to produce a copy of the trust on request."

Again, IANAL, but isn't the context here that you have been pulled over and the officer is trying to determine whether your possession of the NFA item is lawful? For something registered to a trust, the stamp only shows it is lawfully registered to the trust, not that *your* possession is lawful.

For example, Fred creates the 'Acme NFA Trust' that names Fred and Fred's wife Mabel as people authorized to possess a given suppressor. Fred loans the suppressor to his buddy Bob without adding Bob to the trust. Bob gets pulled over going to the range - Bob's possession of the suppressor is not legal; Bob goes to Club Fed.

If Fred gets pulled over with the suppressor and shows only the form showing the can is registered to 'Acme NFA Trust', the LEO who pulled him over has no way to verify that Fred's possession is lawful, so he could choose to arrest Fred until it can be verified that Fred is a valid user under the terms of the trust. Avoiding that trip to jail is the point of carrying the paperwork in the first place, so it seems to me carrying the stamp form without the trust doesn't buy you much. It's possible the officer would say 'Hmmmm, it's registered to someone, I'll just take this guy's word that he's listed in the trust', but he could also decide 'Suppressors are presumptively illegal, and I haven't seen anything verifying this guy's possession is legal, so I'll book him and let the lawyers sort it out'.

So if you are carrying paperwork so you can be 100% protected against getting arrested for what is actually legal protection, I'd think you need the trust.

Again, IANAL, and am happy to be corrected.

[fatdog]

... the officer is trying to determine whether your possession of the NFA item is lawful? For something registered to a trust, the stamp only shows it is lawfully registered to the trust, not that *your* possession is lawful.

I guess I have a clever lawyer, he insisted that mine and my wife's full name plus the word "family" become part of the name or our trust, so those are on our Form 1's and Form 4's. All my NFA items are trust owned but I never carry a copy of the trust.

[Screwball]

For stuff that I have ATF letters for (Echo trigger for example), I put PDFs on a cheap flash drive and toss it in a zip-lock bag. Fold the bag up, and shove it in the Magpul grip. Would probably do the same when I do NFA stuff... and my TAC-14 will be one of those.

[baddean]

"Nowhere in the ATF regulations does it require any portion of a trust as proof of registration.
Granted, only the name of the trust is listed on the ATF forms and not the trustees individually but there is still no requirement to produce a copy of the trust on request."

I know we can go back and forth. That is not my intent. I'm hoping to learn more this way.

Again, IANAL, but isn't the context here that you have been pulled over and the officer is trying to determine whether your possession of the NFA item is lawful? For something registered to a trust, the stamp only shows it is lawfully registered to the trust, not that *your* possession is lawful.

I was not aware that ATF agents pulled people over. The regulations require one to make available the proof of registration to an ATF agent not LEOs in general. And if one has been pulled over for a grossly stupid reason that gets their vehicle searched, possession of a NFA regulated item might be the least of one's worries, assuming that they have the required paperwork. Then again, that could be a crapshoot or worse.
Agreed that the form/stamp only shows the trust, but since I am the signor of the trust, my name is on the form. Granted if my wife had the item in question her name would not appear on the form. But, then again, she would not be pulled over by an ATF agent. I would think that I/she would be more likely to encounter a ATF agent at a range or class than in a general public setting.

For example, Fred creates the 'Acme NFA Trust' that names Fred and Fred's wife Mabel as people authorized to possess a given suppressor. Fred loans the suppressor to his buddy Bob without adding Bob to the trust. Bob gets pulled over going to the range - Bob's possession of the suppressor is not legal; Bob goes to Club Fed.

This is a given.

If Fred gets pulled over with the suppressor and shows only the form showing the can is registered to 'Acme NFA Trust', the LEO who pulled him over has no way to verify that Fred's possession is lawful, so he could choose to arrest Fred until it can be verified that Fred is a valid user under the terms of the trust. Avoiding that trip to jail is the point of carrying the paperwork in the first place, so it seems to me carrying the stamp form without the trust doesn't buy you much. It's possible the officer would say 'Hmmmm, it's registered to someone, I'll just take this guy's word that he's listed in the trust', but he could also decide 'Suppressors are presumptively illegal, and I haven't seen anything verifying this guy's possession is legal, so I'll book him and let the lawyers sort it out'.

Here again, unless Fred lives in one of the places where suppressors are, in fact, illegal (California, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island) A local LEO would have no reason to question Fred's valid ownership. The regulations require one to make available proof of registration to an ATF agent. No mention of local LEO. NFA items are regulated federally not locally. Except in the above jurisdictions.

So if you are carrying paperwork so you can be 100% protected against getting arrested for what is actually legal protection, I'd think you need the trust.

I agree with you that from a common sense standpoint it stands to reason that one should retain a copy of their trust with the ATF forms/stamps (I do, electronically). It's just not spelled out that way in the regulations as being required.
Again, IANAL, and am happy to be corrected.

[fatdog]

NFA items are regulated federally not locally. Except in the above jurisdictions.

Absolutely false. In Alabama for example, all machine guns, SBS and SBR are regulated by state law as well. There is only provision/exception for possessing one by having the valid federal tax stamp.

Any sworn AL leo could take me into custody for felony violation of state law if I failed to offer proof of legal possession of the items. I would beat the rap and get released, but who wants the ride?

[whomever]

"In Alabama for example, all machine guns, SBS and SBR are regulated by state law as well. There is only provision/exception for possessing one by having the valid federal tax stamp."

Washington state is the same.

[TGS]

baddean,

You're misunderstanding the intersection between a LEOs powers and the inspection requirement. Just because 26 USC 5841(e) requires you to present proof of registration of an NFA item to ATF upon request places no limit in any way upon a LEO conducting an investigation. 5841(e) allows the ATF the legal authority to compel inspection, something that does not exist for regular guns/non-NFA items.

It does not prevent any other LEO......federal, state, local, tribal......from developing reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you are in possession of an NFA item illegally. Any LEO can still ask to see proof of registration......and if you don't have it, and they either have a bug up their ass or you've given them some reason to develop PC then you can still do the ride, and/or your property be confiscated as contraband until you prove that it isn't.

I'm not saying anyone is playing with fire if they're driving around without their tax-stamp on them, I'm just saying that you're misinterpreting 26 USC 5841(e) and what it means. I have a coworker that brought a personal M203 to a range day, and there was doubt that he was in possession of it legally. When reported, ATF agents went to his house and asked to see his paperwork for it, they saw it, and they left. 26 USC 5841(e) gave them that authority, as it was a matter of inspection and not criminal investigation where they would need to go about articulating PC and getting a warrant.

[baddean]

Thank you fatdog, whomever, and TSG.
I'm learning from this thread.
This is all good information. I see it would be wise to keep the paperwork with you when transporting or using NFA items.
I do keep with me copies of the forms and trust. Although my trust is not as large as whomever.

[jandbj]

I have them on my phone, and also have copies of all my NFA stamps packaged in sandwich bags in every bag I use.

EDIT: I have never had to show them to anyone.

This ^

[rdtompki]

If you compete in a discipline that allows SBRs, but does not allow SBR-like pistols it's not a bad idea to carry (hard copy or electronic) a copy of the tax stamp. USPSA and Steel Challenge come to mind.

[Kyle Reese]

My original F1 and F4s are in a safe at home and I have a binder with copies in every range bag. Prior to leaving the house for the range I always double check that the binder is there and the appropriate form is present. I’ve never been asked about my NFA items at any range over the course of several years and in six states.

YMMV


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[tlong17]

I'm new to NFA games but looking to obtain my first suppressor. I want to be able to let family members use it. Am I best served working with an actual attorney to draft a trust or is one of the online services like NFA Gun Trust through nationalguntrusts.com good to go? Thanks for the help.

[Hansohn Brothers]

I'm new to NFA games but looking to obtain my first suppressor. I want to be able to let family members use it. Am I best served working with an actual attorney to draft a trust or is one of the online services like NFA Gun Trust through nationalguntrusts.com good to go? Thanks for the help.

GunTrustGuru.com is another great option for having your trust drawn up.