Hi-tech coated cast bullets in a carbine?

[4given]

I am going to work up a load for my .357 mag carbine using 158 gr Hi-Tech coated cast bullets. I have only loaded Hi-tech coated bullets for handguns. Anyone know how they might hold up at carbine velocities?

[Lester Polfus]

I am going to work up a load for my .357 mag carbine using 158 gr Hi-Tech coated cast bullets. I have only loaded Hi-tech coated bullets for handguns. Anyone know how they might hold up at carbine velocities?

I have shot just under 1K of Missouri Bullet Co's 158 grain coated SWC bullets through my 1894c and they've done great.

I would estimate the velocity around 1650ish. One of the things I should do with my stimulus money is replace my chronograph with one that doesn't have a 10mm hole in it...

[4given]

I have shot just under 1K of Missouri Bullet Co's 158 grain coated SWC bullets through my 1894c and they've done great.

I would estimate the velocity around 1650ish. One of the things I should do with my stimulus money is replace my chronograph with one that doesn't have a 10mm hole in it...

I had one with a 10mm hole and another with a .429 hole ...... :(

[4given]

I have shot just under 1K of Missouri Bullet Co's 158 grain coated SWC bullets through my 1894c and they've done great.

I would estimate the velocity around 1650ish. One of the things I should do with my stimulus money is replace my chronograph with one that doesn't have a 10mm hole in it...

Thanks! I don't think I want to go much more than 1650 anyway. Kinda looking first for a round that might work nicely in my M66 and my newly acquired Marlin 1894cs. Yep I found a pre-owned one Lester! There are pix in the carbine section. Got rid of the Rossi M92. Just wasn't for me.

What powder are you using?

[Lester Polfus]

I saw your new carbine and keep meaning to post pix of my own so we can both coo over them, but I've been busier than a one armed paper hanger.

That's a nice rifle you got. I've bonded with mine since I bought it in June, and it's turned into my general purpose walking around the woods gun.

I had a bunch of Blue Dot left over from my 10mm days, so I was loading that bullet over 10.2 grains. It was a decent load, but a bit dirty. I used up all the Blue Dot, and now I've moved on to Longshot, also left over from my 10mm days. It's not an optimal .357 powder, but I have a bunch of it so I'm going to use it up.

One of these days I'll put up a large supply of 2400, although the way things are going that might be a while.

[4given]

I saw your new carbine and keep meaning to post pix of my own so we can both coo over them, but I've been busier than a one armed paper hanger.

That's a nice rifle you got. I've bonded with mine since I bought it in June, and it's turned into my general purpose walking around the woods gun.

I had a bunch of Blue Dot left over from my 10mm days, so I was loading that bullet over 10.2 grains. It was a decent load, but a bit dirty. I used up all the Blue Dot, and now I've moved on to Longshot, also left over from my 10mm days. It's not an optimal .357 powder, but I have a bunch of it so I'm going to use it up.

One of these days I'll put up a large supply of 2400, although the way things are going that might be a while.

I do love mine so far. Itching to shoot it. I do have some 125gr plated I might load up and shoot this weekend. I'm waiting for the 158gr cast & coated to show up. I've got 2400, H110 and a few others that should work just fine for the 158's. Once I get those dialed in I will try to duplicate the Hornady Custom 158 gr XTP load.

[Borderland]

I saw your new carbine and keep meaning to post pix of my own so we can both coo over them, but I've been busier than a one armed paper hanger.

That's a nice rifle you got. I've bonded with mine since I bought it in June, and it's turned into my general purpose walking around the woods gun.

I had a bunch of Blue Dot left over from my 10mm days, so I was loading that bullet over 10.2 grains. It was a decent load, but a bit dirty. I used up all the Blue Dot, and now I've moved on to Longshot, also left over from my 10mm days. It's not an optimal .357 powder, but I have a bunch of it so I'm going to use it up.

One of these days I'll put up a large supply of 2400, although the way things are going that might be a while.

I just purchased 4 lbs of 2400 last week. I use it for my 30 carbine. Probably none to be found now. Seller was out of a lot of powder and he said it's going to be a long dry spell. I had to switch my 5.56 powder and barely got my order in before that was gone also. I bought 20 lbs of powder.

[Lester Polfus]

I just purchased 4 lbs of 2400 last week. I use it for my 30 carbine. Probably none to be found now. Seller was out of a lot of powder and he said it's going to be a long dry spell. I had to switch my 5.56 powder and barely got my order in before that was gone also. I bought 20 lbs of powder.

There is still some out there, but my wife and I are being extremely strategic with our spending right now. It's hard for me to justify shipping and hazmat fees for 9lbs of 2400* when I've got... let's just say a sub substantial amount of other powders that while not optimal for .357, will work just fine.

* I always buy a one pound can and an 8lb jug when buying powder in bulk. Once the one pounder is empty, I refill it carefully from the jug.

[willie]

I don't know your experience with reloading for and shooting pistol bullet lever rifles but will share mine. With .357 and .44 Mag Marlin and Henry rifles using cast bullets, I found that I was fortunate if I obtained 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards. 1.5 inch 50 yard groups often became 6 inch 100 yard groups. One reason for this occurrence was the bullet's dropping below sound barrier velocity at 100 yards, and the air disturbance disrupted bullet flight sufficiently to enlarge groups. Another is that lever actions vary widely from one to another in accuracy but can be tweaked. I admit that I failed at tweaking. I suggest that you develop an accuracy load for your rifle and then use it in the revolver. Also I urge you to discuss your needs with the bullet vendor. This is essential since you wish to use the same bullet in both a rifle and revolver. At the risk of offending you, I must point out that lever actions require blunt point bullets to avoid one setting another off in the mag tube. Some round nose lead .38 revolver bullets have a very round profile. In case someone jumps up and tells you that a .357 Mag rifle does not have sufficient recoil for one round to set off the one in front in the mag tube, you might count his fingers.

1650 fps is a most desirable velocity but setting your goal at 1550 will keep you from pulling out your hair. Remember that you are seeking accuracy and absence of leading. Faster burning powders(compared to 2400)like the respected Unique may contribute to leading if you use them to achieve 1650 fps. I do not imply that Unique or others won't suffice.

[4given]

I don't know your experience with reloading for and shooting pistol bullet lever rifles but will share mine. With .357 and .44 Mag Marlin and Henry rifles using cast bullets, I found that I was fortunate if I obtained 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards. 1.5 inch 50 yard groups often became 6 inch 100 yard groups. One reason for this occurrence was the bullet's dropping below sound barrier velocity at 100 yards, and the air disturbance disrupted bullet flight sufficiently to enlarge groups. Another is that lever actions vary widely from one to another in accuracy but can be tweaked. I admit that I failed at tweaking. I suggest that you develop an accuracy load for your rifle and then use it in the revolver. Also I urge you to discuss your needs with the bullet vendor. This is essential since you wish to use the same bullet in both a rifle and revolver. At the risk of offending you, I must point out that lever actions require blunt point bullets to avoid one setting another off in the mag tube. Some round nose lead .38 revolver bullets have a very round profile. In case someone jumps up and tells you that a .357 Mag rifle does not have sufficient recoil for one round to set off the one in front in the mag tube, you might count his fingers.

1650 fps is a most desirable velocity but setting your goal at 1550 will keep you from pulling out your hair. Remember that you are seeking accuracy and absence of leading. Faster burning powders(compared to 2400)like the respected Unique may contribute to leading if you use them to achieve 1650 fps. I do not imply that Unique or others won't suffice.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. To answer your question, my dad taught me to load my own ammo when I was 10 years old. I am now 62 so I have handloaded many calibers for many firearms for for many years. However I don't know it all and I appreciate any advice offered. Like they say, you learn something new every day.

I took my Marlin .357 out to the range and fired some .38 special hand loads through it and it functioned well. A little "sticky" feeding at times. I used copper plated 125 gr RNFP and 158 gr Hi-tech coated SWC. Once I got back home I loaded some of the 158gr SWC in some Starline .357 brass to 1.60 COAL and it seemed to feed smoothly.

The groups I shot off the bags at 50 yards were pretty Ho-Hum so I will need to take some time with load development. Sounds like fun to me!! I think I will first work with the 158 SWC coated and some 158 gr XTP's I have on order. I have quite a few different powders to try so I think I might find something that works well.

I think I will mount a scope on it during the load development stage then take it off afterwards and install the Williams FP sight. It might be a couple of weeks until it arrives anyway. I can't imagine doing load development with the stock Semi-Buckhorn sights!

[willie]

You know what you're doing. One significant variable for you is coating vs traditional lube. If coating does not work, trying the same bullet in traditional lube version is an option. With the latter, some vendors offer a diameter option like .357, .358, or .359. Regarding shape, round nose flat point and lbt profiles have excellent accuracy reputations.

Marlin rifles traditionally had micro-groove rifling which did not lend itself to cast bullet load development. I urge you to verify your gun's rifling. If you later try bullets with traditional lube, consider ordering .359 diameter. If these do not do well, you can run them through an inexpensive Lee lead bullet size die to reduce diameter to .358. My guess is that .359 is a better choice. The reason is that your Marlin rifle and Ruger revolver will most likely have larger bore diameters.

Commercial cast bullets are usually too hard. Lube types vary. Softer lube is better than hard. Commercial casters tend to use hard lubes so that the lube remains within lube grooves. The easy way out for you is to buy cowboy action bullets cast of softer alloy. With these develop accurate .38 velocity loads. This method facilitates the easiest way to select a suitable bullet and accurate load. You may find that these same bullets will do well for faster velocities. If not, you have determined essential information.

If your lubed bullets are leading, try this. Buy a bottle of Lee Alox type lube and dilute it with mineral spirits. Mix 50/50 and dip the regular lubed bullet in this. Let dry and load. This mix can be further diluted and then applied with a shake/bake method.

If your rifle will not shoot jacketed bullets accurately, neither will it do well with cast bullets.

[4given]

You know what you're doing. One significant variable for you is coating vs traditional lube. If coating does not work, trying the same bullet in traditional lube version is an option. With the latter, some vendors offer a diameter option like .357, .358, or .359. Regarding shape, round nose flat point and lbt profiles have excellent accuracy reputations.

Marlin rifles traditionally had micro-groove rifling which did not lend itself to cast bullet load development. I urge you to verify your gun's rifling. If you later try bullets with traditional lube, consider ordering .359 diameter. If these do not do well, you can run them through an inexpensive Lee lead bullet size die to reduce diameter to .358. My guess is that .359 is a better choice. The reason is that your Marlin rifle and Ruger revolver will most likely have larger bore diameters.

Commercial cast bullets are usually too hard. Lube types vary. Softer lube is better than hard. Commercial casters tend to use hard lubes so that the lube remains within lube grooves. The easy way out for you is to buy cowboy action bullets cast of softer alloy. With these develop accurate .38 velocity loads. This method facilitates the easiest way to select a suitable bullet and accurate load. You may find that these same bullets will do well for faster velocities. If not, you have determined essential information.

If your lubed bullets are leading, try this. Buy a bottle of Lee Alox type lube and dilute it with mineral spirits. Mix 50/50 and dip the regular lubed bullet in this. Let dry and load. This mix can be further diluted and then applied with a shake/bake method.

If your rifle will not shoot jacketed bullets accurately, neither will it do well with cast bullets.

Thanks for the tips! The 158gr SWC's I have are sized .358. They shoot great in my S&W M66. I'll give them a whirl and see how they do. I haven't slugged my barrel yet but will if I don't get the results I want with the bullets I have on hand. You are the second experianced person that has told me that the Marlins tend to like fat lead bullets.

I have generally had good results with the XTP in handguns. I'm seeking to duplicate the Hornady factory load with the XTP's. They list 1250 FPS on the label. Don't know the length of the test barrel. I'll use the factory load for S/D purposes while wintering in Arizona and California.

[4given]

Thanks for the tips! The 158gr SWC's I have are sized .358. They shoot great in my S&W M66. I'll give them a whirl and see how they do. I haven't slugged my barrel yet but will if I don't get the results I want with the bullets I have on hand. You are the second experianced person that has told me that the Marlins tend to like fat lead bullets.

I have generally had good results with the XTP in handguns. I'm seeking to duplicate the Hornady factory load with the XTP's. They list 1250 FPS on the label. Don't know the length of the test barrel. I'll use the factory load for S/D purposes while wintering in Arizona and California.


Well the 158gr .358 cast were pretty dismal. I'm going to try some XTP's next. Probably 140gr and 158gr FP XTP depending on what is available.

[willie]

I fear that you will continue to get these results with cast bullets. As you peruse cast bullet vendors, you might look at 180 grain offerings. If you wish to read cast bullet data derived from lever rifle tests, pm me with your email for a relevant link.

Eventually you will find a suitable load for your rifle, but chances are it will be with a jacketed bullet. This statement is less true with .44 and .45 pistol caliber rifles. For decades I have thought that an accomplished revolver shot could hit with his handgun the same target that he could hit with a pistol caliber lever rifle. Note this statement is an opinion.
The lever rifle shines when chambered for a rifle cartridge. The lowly 30-30 is one example. It is light weight, short and handy, and can produce tight 3 shot 100 yard groups. 5 shot groups tend to open up due to heat unless fired slowly.

[willie]

MidwayUSA sells a Hunters Supply .358 190 grain cast bullet that should work well in a .357 Mag lever rifle. In magnum cases you might try 4 to 4.5 grains of Bullseye. The fast burning powder when it ignites will bump up the bullet to fit the bore. This bullet has a longer bearing surface and ample grease grooves.

[Lester Polfus]

Well the 158gr .358 cast were pretty dismal. I'm going to try some XTP's next. Probably 140gr and 158gr FP XTP depending on what is available.

What size groups were you getting?

[4given]

What size groups were you getting?

I sighted in at 30 yards just to get it on paper using the 158 gr coated cast bullet with a medium charge of Universal. Once on paper, I shot a couple of groups of the same load at 30 yards just to see what happened. They ranged from 5" - 7".
Since they were so bad, I shot my test loads at 30 yards. My test loads were the .358 dia 158gr cast coated starting with 14.2 and ending wit 14.9 gr of 2400. The only halfway decent group was with 14.9gr 2400. It was about 1" if you you don't count the flyer, 2" or so if you do. Still at 30 yards... not too impressive. The other 2400 test loads were not nearly as good. I have attached a picture of the best group.

I just ordered some 158 gr FP/xtp and 140gr hp/xtp to try. At some point I will contact Missouri Bullet and see about getting some cast bullets sized .359 to try.


Back to the drawing board ...

51393

[4given]

I fear that you will continue to get these results with cast bullets. As you peruse cast bullet vendors, you might look at 180 grain offerings. If you wish to read cast bullet data derived from lever rifle tests, pm me with your email for a relevant link.

Eventually you will find a suitable load for your rifle, but chances are it will be with a jacketed bullet. This statement is less true with .44 and .45 pistol caliber rifles. For decades I have thought that an accomplished revolver shot could hit with his handgun the same target that he could hit with a pistol caliber lever rifle. Note this statement is an opinion.
The lever rifle shines when chambered for a rifle cartridge. The lowly 30-30 is one example. It is light weight, short and handy, and can produce tight 3 shot 100 yard groups. 5 shot groups tend to open up due to heat unless fired slowly.

Thanks for all the great info willie. I'm going to try the jacketed bullets before I try any more cast. Have you tried any of the plated bullets? I know that xtreme and maybe some others have a thicker plated option for higher velocities. I have thought about a 30-30. Ya never know. I'd probably just do a bolt action scout rifle with a detachable magazine in .308 or .223

[willie]

I've not used plated bullets in rifles. The Marlin Owners Forum might be one place to consult for more information. I don't recall the details in the thread but will say that when shooting cast bullets, you must begin with a clean bore and can't switch between cast and jacketed without cleaning bore. That goes for trying to shoot groups with jacketed also.

[Borderland]

I fear that you will continue to get these results with cast bullets. As you peruse cast bullet vendors, you might look at 180 grain offerings. If you wish to read cast bullet data derived from lever rifle tests, pm me with your email for a relevant link.

Eventually you will find a suitable load for your rifle, but chances are it will be with a jacketed bullet. This statement is less true with .44 and .45 pistol caliber rifles. For decades I have thought that an accomplished revolver shot could hit with his handgun the same target that he could hit with a pistol caliber lever rifle. Note this statement is an opinion.
The lever rifle shines when chambered for a rifle cartridge. The lowly 30-30 is one example. It is light weight, short and handy, and can produce tight 3 shot 100 yard groups. 5 shot groups tend to open up due to heat unless fired slowly.

I've shot a lot of XTP's in a 357 rifle. 125 gr thru 180 gr. and lots of different powder combinations. I was never really satisfied with the rifle/cartridge combination to give good accuracy at 100 yds. By good accuracy I mean 3 MOA or better. Truthfully, I never experimented with cast or coated lead as I was loading for around 1300-1600 fps. I've heard and read that jacketed bullets will perform the best at those velocities so I never messed around with cast. My understanding about cast bullets is that they don't do well in rifles above 1200 fps. But again, I have no experience with that. I have to go with your theory about rifle cartridges (bottle neck) giving better accuracy. That's my experience anyway and the reason I don't own a 357 mag rifle anymore. I would much rather try to get good accuracy with a 35 Remington than a 357 mag. shooting the same 158 gr XTP bullet. This is only my opinion based on hundreds of rounds fired load testing a 357 rifle. There are many people who shoot 357 rifles and enjoy them but if I go down that road again I'll have a rifle cartridge like a 35 Rem. or 30-30.

[willie]

Your observations are accurate. I suggest the 30-30 over the 35 Rem because of factory ammo and component availability of the 30-30.

[4given]

Well I found a good load with real potential! Using the Hornady 158gr FP/XTP I loaded test loads with 2400 and H-110 and shot groups at 50 yards. The 2400 did OK with groups in the 1' - 1.5" range. A LOT better that the .358 dia cast were doing.

Then I shot the H-110 loads and Wala! Now we are talking! Both test loads shot 3 into one ragged hole. Looks like I might be onto something! I'll have to do a little more testing .....

https://i.imgur.com/dF6NurE.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/rKmHQnt.jpg?1